Rusty intermediate needs guidance [Archive]

Jan in Notts

10th-June-2008, 11:08 AM

Lou

10th-June-2008, 11:33 AM

Hi, new to the forum and would like some direction please. I started MJ back in 1999 and thought I was a reasonable dancer. Broke off in 2002 to have a family but now able to attend a class and the odd freestyle now and again. Crikey things have changed - would love to improve my dancing but I am having difficulties following the slower/slinkier moves.

I have been having a good look around the forum but to be honest a lot of the stuff is going straight over my head at the moment.

Should I think about trying a WCS class, go to a few MJ workshops - if so which ones? or just grin and bear it when I see the look of disappointment on the lead's face. Still having a great time dancing - stupid smile still on face after I leave the dance floor - but would like to make it a more fun experience for my dance partners as well as improve my style (sometimes a big cheesy grin just isn't enough).

Any comments would be welcome.

Cheers

Jan

:D Yup, I think things have changed a bit since the old days! It's like fashion.

These are just some thoughts off the top of my head. I don't know you, so it might not fit what you're after Feel free to ignore, if you don't think it suits you. :wink:

I'd say the best thing to start with is just to relax & work on your following. If you're bouncy, just concentrate on smoothing your style out a bit. If you have a tendency to anticipate or backlead, try to listen to your lead more. Don't rush into moves, relax into them. This way, it will allow the man to lead you more easily into the slower & slinkier stuff. You can work on this in a regular class & freestyle. Once, you're more comfortable with that, think about maybe a ladies' style workshop or similar.

If you try a WCS workshop, be prepared for frustration if there's no regular classes nearby as you may well get addicted. :rolleyes:

BTW... don't stop the smiling bit.

David Bailey

10th-June-2008, 11:48 AM

would love to improve my dancing but I am having difficulties following the slower/slinkier moves.
Can you be a bit more specific? I know, trying to describe this stuff in writing is very difficult, but it may help.

For example, a couple of problems I've noticed some people do with slower stuff are:
- they literally, mechanically slow everything down - so it looks like slow-motion dancing.
- they spin / turn / move the same speed, then get to the end quick, and "hang about" for a beat or two.

Should I think about trying a WCS class, go to a few MJ workshops - if so which ones?
I'd avoid WCS classes, unless you want to dance WCS - similarly, I'd avoid AT or salsa classes. In the short term, they only teach you to dance that specific dance - getting any improvement in MJ dancing will take much longer, as you'll have to master those other dances first.

In MJ workshops, a Blues kind of workshop would seem appropriate - maybe something like one of Marc & Rachel's "Cuban Blues" workshops?

(sometimes a big cheesy grin just isn't enough).
A big cheesy grin is always the most important part.

Jan in Notts

10th-June-2008, 09:52 PM

I'd say the best thing to start with is just to relax & work on your following. If you're bouncy, just concentrate on smoothing your style out a bit. If you have a tendency to anticipate or backlead, try to listen to your lead more.

Hi Lou, thanks for your advice - guilty as charged of most of the above I am afraid. When I started at Ceroc, I used to go home after a class and write out the lead moves, like many others I suppose, and then practice them in front of the mirror (or was that just me? :D) unfortunately this got me into a bad habit of anticpating/backleading.

I have gone along to the beginners classes with a newbie friend and used the lesson as a way of relearning how to follow and hope this will help with the smoother moves when freestyling.

Thanks for your time

Jan

dave the scaffolder

10th-June-2008, 09:57 PM

Relax, smile and enjoy it Jan.

If you are enjoying it your partner will be as well.

Just follow the lead and everything is the fault of the lead.

DTS XXX XXX

Lou

11th-June-2008, 10:39 AM

Hi Lou, thanks for your advice - guilty as charged of most of the above I am afraid. When I started at Ceroc, I used to go home after a class and write out the lead moves, like many others I suppose, and then practice them in front of the mirror (or was that just me? :D)
:rofl: Nope - many of us started out that way, if we're being honest. :D And I totally understand - for the last 6 years I've been trying to stop anticipating & backleading (well, since joining the Forum & discovering where I was going wrong, anyway :wink: ).

There's one big danger of using the beginner's class to learn to follow - and that's because the beginner men haven't learnt to lead yet! But, yes, do try it with the more experienced blokes. And maybe grab a taxi to help?

Just a few thoughts to help you work on it...

As everyone has said on this thread - relax & keep smiling.

Try not to think! (Some people say "leave your brain at the door", and whilst I wouldn't totally agree with that, I like the sentiment). Try not to guess what the move is meant to be - think about what the lead is trying to tell you.

A good way to start feeling the lead is to follow his hand with your bellybutton. Yup, it sounds odd, but the vast majority of men lead MJ from their arms, and the hand that's holding your right hand is the one way they can communicate their intentions. The bellybutton trick improves your frame and focuses your attention to that one area of communication.

I hope this helps a bit. It's a couple of tricks I've successfully used to help me, anyway. But as TAFKADJ said above:

Can you be a bit more specific? I know, trying to describe this stuff in writing is very difficult, but it may help.
it's hard to describe this stuff in writing. Let us know how things turn out. :hug:

Chef

11th-June-2008, 11:32 AM

Hello Jan. Welcome to the forum and welcome back to dancing.

Things have moved on a little since you stopped dancing but underneath that the fundementals of partner dancing haven't changed. Things won't be as bad as you feared but you might not be as good as your remembered that you were.

Here are somethings that MAY help you.

Backleading. Don't do it! you will only end up training your men not to lead. Something that is essential for me when I am trying the followers role is to close my eyes. I don't see the move coming so I can't anticipate. I also seem to stand taller and stay more on balance and concentrate only on what my hand is being led. Of course there is no point in the leader giving me hand signals, like tapping his left shoulder with the first two fingers of his right hand (I kid you not) to signal a move, because I won't see it. I do choose leaders that I feel are able to lead purely from the hand.

The hand that is leading you is the one that is closest to your centre. If his hand is on your back then that is the one that is leading. Quite useful to know when dancing slow and in close hold.

Relax. There is ususally more time than you think for the dancing. If a particualr speed of track seems to mean you dance in a frantic manner then, for now, only choose slower tracks to dance to. Dancing to too fast music when you are not ready will not lift your spirits. Getting frantic means you dance untidy and untidy dancing takes more time and effort.

Spinning. Re- learn how to spin on your own at home. Devote equal time to spinning in each direction so your are equally good in both directions. Ask your teacher to give you specific advice. Learning to spin in complete control of your self is much more important than being able to spin fast, or multiple times, while not in control. Why learn at home on your own? Your partner never gets bored. You can learn that you don't need to be a great distance from your partner in order for them to be safe. Ham fisted leaders can be more of a hinderance than a help so it is worth being confident with your spinning before you let a leader lead you into spins.

Get your rock step sorted. We start all moves in MJ with a rock step which Ceroc teach as "take a step back". My advice is to try to do this without your heel touching the ground and keep your weight forward as if you are just about to move forward (because you are). Instead of stepping back rock onto your back foot and then onto your front foot (do not lift your front foot off the floor - it is a sign that you have moved your weight too far backwards). Now try taking a peice of string and sticking one end to a wall with blu tack. Hold the other end of the string and hold it so it is nearly tight. Now do your rock step without pulling the string off the blu tack. If your body is moving backwards then compensate by moving your hand forward. If you are constantly pulling the string off the blu tack it will feel to your leader that you are yanking his arm.

Lastly. Be patient with yourself. These things take time.

johnnyman

11th-June-2008, 12:07 PM

Hi.

Good to see you back in the swing of dancing again after your sabbatical.

In a way, you may be at an advantage because you can come to it with a fresh perspective and not have to worry about those bad habits you may have picked up.

WCS is a good place to develop your style because you are forced to think about your dancing more subjectively.

Anyway, best of luck getting back in the frame.

best
johnnyman

Jan in Notts

11th-June-2008, 12:16 PM

Hi, thanks to everyone who has responded to my thread. I am off upstairs with my blu-tac and string now. Next time you are in Nottingham you will recognise me as the woman contemplating her belly button with her eyes shut - beware!!

Seriously lots of really good advice which I am going to work on, thanks again to you all for your help and supportive comments.

Jan

Lou

11th-June-2008, 12:27 PM

I've just seen Chef's excellent reply. So I want to expand on something I said earlier...

Yup, it sounds odd, but the vast majority of men lead MJ from their arms, and the hand that's holding your right hand is the one way they can communicate their intentions.
Chef mentioned:
The hand that is leading you is the one that is closest to your centre. If his hand is on your back then that is the one that is leading. Quite useful to know when dancing slow and in close hold.
which is entirely correct. In my previous comments, I was referring to open positions. Hopefully it won't cause any confusion.

Get your rock step sorted. We start all moves in MJ with a rock step which Ceroc teach as "take a step back". My advice is to try to do this without your heel touching the ground and keep your weight forward as if you are just about to move forward (because you are). Instead of stepping back rock onto your back foot and then onto your front foot (do not lift your front foot off the floor - it is a sign that you have moved your weight too far backwards). Now try taking a peice of string and sticking one end to a wall with blu tack. Hold the other end of the string and hold it so it is nearly tight. Now do your rock step without pulling the string off the blu tack. If your body is moving backwards then compensate by moving your hand forward. If you are constantly pulling the string off the blu tack it will feel to your leader that you are yanking his arm.
I'm not sure whether I totally understand that paragraph, Chef. Are you saying there shouldn't be a weight change on the rock step (as you say about keeping "your weight forward")? Or is it that it shouldn't be a large weight change (which I agree can lead to yanking)? I personally think that a weight change should be there, otherwise it could lead to the feeling of rushing through the move. Quite often I don't actually step back at all, but I've always got that weight shift happening, even if my feet are together.

Gadget

11th-June-2008, 01:01 PM

Get your rock step sorted. We start all moves in MJ with a rock step which Ceroc teach as "take a step back". My advice is to try to do this without your heel touching the ground and keep your weight forward as if you are just about to move forward (because you are). Instead of stepping back rock onto your back foot and then onto your front foot (do not lift your front foot off the floor - it is a sign that you have moved your weight too far backwards).
I agree with Lou here: one of the most common "mistakes" beginners make is not transferring their weight to the back foot on the step back - just sticking their foot back. What causes the 'yanking' is less to do with the transferral of weight and putting the heel down and more to do with the size of step being taken: take smaller steps.

When you step back, there shouldn't be much floor between the heel of the 'static' foot and the toe of the one being stepped back on. More than the size of your own foot and it's a huge step back. I would aim for about the distance between toe and arch or less.

Don't worry about not putting heels down either - if you just keep a slight flex in your knees it will happen automatically and you will find you become much more responsive. (and spins become easier)

Chef

11th-June-2008, 01:45 PM

I agree with Lou here: one of the most common "mistakes" beginners make is not transferring their weight to the back foot on the step back - just sticking their foot back. What causes the 'yanking' is less to do with the transferral of weight and putting the heel down and more to do with the size of step being taken: take smaller steps.

When you step back, there shouldn't be much floor between the heel of the 'static' foot and the toe of the one being stepped back on. More than the size of your own foot and it's a huge step back. I would aim for about the distance between toe and arch or less.

Don't worry about not putting heels down either - if you just keep a slight flex in your knees it will happen automatically and you will find you become much more responsive. (and spins become easier)

Different ways of achieving the same thing. If you keep your body weight forward you wont be able to take a huge step back, therefore you will be taking smaller steps.

If you place your weight on your the heel of the foot you step back on then you will have transferred your body weight backwards. I have just tried it again. You can take a small step backwards and place your heel down while keeping your body weight forwards but it feels really weird. If your do put your body weight down on the heel (there is a difference between being able to make contact with the floor and placing weight on the heel) then you have to move your body weight backwards in order to do so. The problem with that is that you then have to move it forwards again and that slows you down. The "take small steps" is good advice though. If you get too far away from your partner then you have to take large steps to get back to him. It makes your approach to get back to your partner look (and feel) less like dancing and more like a frenzied attack.

The point of the rock step part of my advice was to achieve the effect of not placing too much tension into the connection with your partner to the point where you are uncomfortably tugging on the connection. The leaders job is to lead you, not to prevent you from falling over backwards and all the tugging feels uncomfortable for both of you.

Additional bit of advice. Never let either hand drop below hip height. If you look around a dance floor most ladies will let the hand that is not connected to their partner hang limply at their side. Leaders can't reach it there and it looks so naff. Keep your spare hand up at about hip/waist height and it is available to your partner and also for styling to make you look good.

Gadget

11th-June-2008, 06:55 PM

Different ways of achieving the same thing. If you keep your body weight forward you wont be able to take a huge step back, therefore you will be taking smaller steps.You don't come from a Lindy background do you? ;)

If you place your weight on your the heel of the foot you step back on then you will have transferred your body weight backwards. I have just tried it again. You can take a small step backwards and place your heel down while keeping your body weight forwards but it feels really weird. If your do put your body weight down on the heel (there is a difference between being able to make contact with the floor and placing weight on the heel) then you have to move your body weight backwards in order to do so.
exactly!. It's a weight transfer. It also encourages you to keep upright and not bend forward (sticking a leg back normally results in bending at the waist and leaning forward to counter-balance. ) Stepping back and transferring the weight keeps your body and your center over your feet resulting in much better balance and better ability to react to change.

The problem with that is that you then have to move it forwards again and that slows you down.It's not a problem. You are not doing a step-ball-change; it's a step and replace. You have all the time you need; the transferral of weight allows for a more relaxed feel while increasing the dynamics of the dance. It also looks more elegant.

It's called a "rock step" for a reason; the weight is 'rocked' from the front foot to the back foot and back again.

The point of the rock step part of my advice was to achieve the effect of not placing too much tension into the connection with your partner to the point where you are uncomfortably tugging on the connection. The leaders job is to lead you, not to prevent you from falling over backwards and all the tugging feels uncomfortable for both of you.I agree; you don't want to be tugging your partner with every step back, but I don't agree with your techniques to acheive it. "Bouncing" back onto the back foot is more likley to tug than taking the time to settle back and return.

Additional bit of advice. Never let either hand drop below hip height. If you look around a dance floor most ladies will let the hand that is not connected to their partner hang limply at their side. Leaders can't reach it there and it looks so naff. Keep your spare hand up at about hip/waist height and it is available to your partner and also for styling to make you look good.Just wanted to highlight that bit - good tip, but equally (when connected this time) try not to let your hand lift upwards above the bottom of your rib-cage.
Leads may move your hand below the waist, but unless they are turning you or changing hand-holds/connection points the hands should never come above the last rib.

Chef

11th-June-2008, 11:37 PM

You don't come from a Lindy background do you? ;)

Sorry. MJ through and through. Just well trained MJ.

[
i]exactly![/i]. It's a weight transfer. It also encourages you to keep upright and not bend forward (sticking a leg back normally results in bending at the waist and leaning forward to counter-balance. ) Stepping back and transferring the weight keeps your body and your center over your feet resulting in much better balance and better ability to react to change.

I am not asking for a tap step (no weight placed on the back foot) I am asking for a rock step were the weight is not fully transferred to the back foot and not fully taken off the front foot. If you do take your body back (take small steps to limit this) don't take your hand backwards or it will feel to your leader that you are tugging.

The body will be pitched forward but not by much. If you are moving backwards you do it from a low place and if you are moving forwards then a high place like your shoulder height. Try sitting on a chair by pitching your shoulders backwards first - tricky yes? Once you are sitting on the chair try sitting bolt upright and move off of it by lifting your hips forward first. In order to go forward you need your upper body pitched forward.

It's not a problem. You are not doing a step-ball-change; it's a step and replace. You have all the time you need; the transferral of weight allows for a more relaxed feel while increasing the dynamics of the dance. It also looks more elegant.

I have seem many followers doing the rock step where the look (and feel) like they are about to fall backwards without the aid ot the man to hold her hand. I don't think that looks elegant - but that is just my opinion. As for having all the time you need - the only comment I can make is that fast tracks like Candyman have to be slowed down for most dancers parlty because they spend their rocksteps throwing themselves backwards (while kicking their front foot up in the air like the WW2 german goosestep march) and then forwards and can't do it fast enough.

It's called a "rock step" for a reason; the weight is 'rocked' from the front foot to the back foot and back again.

Indeed. But do you believe it is a total weight change on each part of the rock step? If you do then we will just have to agree to disagree.

I agree; you don't want to be tugging your partner with every step back, but I don't agree with your techniques to acheive it. "Bouncing" back onto the back foot is more likley to tug than taking the time to settle back and return.

Bouncing back may well tug at your partner, rocking without your hand moving back should not. The little excercise with the peice of sting and blu tack would let you know pretty quickly if you are tugging.

I do hope this discussion of details is not serving to confuse Jan in Notts. If hwat I am saying to you doesn't make sense then just ignore it.

Jan in Notts

12th-June-2008, 08:25 AM

I do hope this discussion of details is not serving to confuse Jan in Notts. If hwat I am saying to you doesn't make sense then just ignore it.

Not confused just really interested to hear all the different points of view. Just goes to show that every dancer is unique and that is what makes each dance so different, challenging and enjoyable.

Jan

Lou

12th-June-2008, 09:31 AM

Not confused just really interested to hear all the different points of view. Just goes to show that every dancer is unique and that is what makes each dance so different, challenging and enjoyable.
:nice: Sorry! I started it! :devil:

I was originally confused by Chef's comments, but after his last reply...
I am not asking for a tap step (no weight placed on the back foot) I am asking for a rock step were the weight is not fully transferred to the back foot and not fully taken off the front foot. If you do take your body back (take small steps to limit this) don't take your hand backwards or it will feel to your leader that you are tugging.
he's clarified matters for me, and I think we agree. The point he's making is that it's important not to tug or to use your partner for balance & his blu-tack exercise seems really good to highlight this. And, now he's explained further, I think I do exactly what he's describing - I think it was a terminology issue, as the weight change is there. From what you were originally saying, though, I'm guessing this is less of a problem for you, as you originally asked for help with slower dancing, and as Chef again points out, this fault often comes to light with fast songs.

And I agree with Gadget that I find a lot of men beginners who just tap & don't make any weight shift at all, so I agree that at beginner level it should be emphasized. :flower:

Chef

12th-June-2008, 10:35 AM

From what you were originally saying, though, I'm guessing this is less of a problem for you, as you originally asked for help with slower dancing, and as Chef again points out, this fault often comes to light with fast songs.

Indeed. It was help with slower songs that Jan origionally asked for. I seem to have taken my eye off the origional question and I apologise to Jan for that.

Although the problem with the rock step manifests itself at high speeds it is essentally one of having an ecessive movement of the dancers point of balance. While there is time during slow songs to recover from this it would be better to not have a problem at any speed than to have a recovery plan.

BTW when you are doing the string and blu tack excercise stick the blu tack at exactly the height of your belly button. It really is a great excercise, it even teaches you not to drop or raise your hand, that you are responsible for the weight of your own arm while holding it with muscle tone which would allow the reception of a lead.

Anyway. Apologies again. Happy Dancing.

Gadget

12th-June-2008, 02:26 PM

I am not asking for a tap step (no weight placed on the back foot) I am asking for a rock step were the weight is not fully transferred to the back foot and not fully taken off the front foot. If you do take your body back (take small steps to limit this) don't take your hand backwards or it will feel to your leader that you are tugging.I'm 100% behind you with the hand thing. I tried to look at how I did it last night and found that I have to concentrate to actually take a step back in freestyle dancing* :blush: The only time I actually step back is on faster tracks where I want a more dynamic feel to the dance. And even then, about 50% of my backwards movement is with my torso rather than my feet. (more control)
But I do transfer most of my weight to the back foot. The front foot is only there for balance - I can choose to slide it somewhere else before stepping onto it again.

I think that if you transfer all of your weight onto the back foot, there is a high probability that the front foot will come back to join it unless you are willing it to stay in place.

{*I've changed my dancing so that I can easily accommodate beginners and folk that do tend to end the step back with a straight arm: Instead of back, I place my foot parallel to take a balanced stance... that's when I'm not stepping forward. Lots of advantages for me doing this and I am only sacrificing some visual dynamics.}

The body will be pitched forward but not by much. If you are moving backwards you do it from a low place and if you are moving forwards then a high place like your shoulder height. Try sitting on a chair by pitching your shoulders backwards first - tricky yes? Once you are sitting on the chair try sitting bolt upright and move off of it by lifting your hips forward first. In order to go forward you need your upper body pitched forward.Disagree here. If you move your upper torso first, then the lower half of your body needs to move under it to stop you falling over. If you move your lower torso, then the upper bit has to move with it. That's moving from the core. When you place your weight on the back foot, you are not leaning back - you are settling your weight over the back foot.

If you want to adopt a sitting position when dancing, then yea; move your shoulders forward first. And then move your feet towards a lindy-hop class. :wink:

As for having all the time you need - the only comment I can make is that fast tracks like Candyman have to be slowed down for most dancers parlty because they spend their rocksteps throwing themselves backwards (while kicking their front foot up in the air like the WW2 german goosestep march) and then forwards and can't do it fast enough.Why can't they? Because they are trying to adopt a 'swing' style in the MJ framework they are used to. The faster a track, the more the knees bend, the more you shift your weight over the front of your toes, and the smaller steps you take. Since the weight is forward and the knees are bent, you can get the same dynamics by moving your torso the distance you are no longer moving your feet.
You can't dance to tracks above about 130BPM while maintaining the same style and technique as you would "normally". (candy man is about 160 I think) In the same way that you can't dance to tracks below about 115BPM without changing the way you dance.

Your advice is good for these faster tracks, but I wouldn't advocate it for 'normal' dancing

Bouncing back may well tug at your partner, rocking without your hand moving back should not. The little exercise with the piece of sting and blu tack would let you know pretty quickly if you are tugging.Isolation. Not just handy for avoiding tugging: It's the same skill that will allow a dancer to do their funky thang without dissrupting the signals to/from/through the lead.

BTW with the blu-tac thing (and with following in general) don't let your elbows go bacwards past your rib cage; if they do, you are stepping too far forward in the excercise.
If they do while dancing, you need to attach your hands/elbows/arms/shoulders to your body. Normally referred to as a frame - move the hand back an inch and the body moves back an inch. It dosn't cascade from the hand, down the arm to the body; everything moves in unison.

Marc did another good excercise of touching a table, then moving/dancing and keeping that touch. (up, down, sides,...) Then doing the same thing with an 'invisible' table. It's the same idea: trying not to let what you are doing interfear with the connection between you and your partner.

I do hope this discussion of details is not serving to confuse Jan in Notts. If what I am saying to you doesn't make sense then just ignore it.:yeah: ... although I'm not sure that it leaves much of mine to read :what:;)

Chef

12th-June-2008, 02:58 PM

Disagree here. If you move your upper torso first, then the lower half of your body needs to move under it to stop you falling over. If you move your lower torso, then the upper bit has to move with it. That's moving from the core. When you place your weight on the back foot, you are not leaning back - you are settling your weight over the back foot.

I think we are largley saying similar things but in slightly different ways. What you say about not leaning back is a better way of expressing it than my saying that the upper torso is pitched slightly forwards.

I also agree that if the upper torso pitches forward then the lower torso has to move underneath it to stop you falling over. I just thought that most people able to walk would already know that even if they hadn't thought about it that closely. Similarly if you walk backwards you don't do it by pitching your upper torso backwards and get your lower torso to catch up, the pitch backwards starts from your bottom (unless you are doing tango when the foot extends backwards first, followed by somehwhere other than the upper torso).

The rest of your post has some good points and better ways of expressing things than I used.

DundeeDancer

14th-June-2008, 02:35 PM

I think we are largley saying similar things but in slightly different ways. What you say about not leaning back is a better way of expressing it than my saying that the upper torso is pitched slightly forwards.
...more stuff...
I believe the advice about the follower not stepping to far away from the lead is vital in reducing jerkyness.

It was a common fault I was on the receiving end the other night with a set of beginners and in the end I just got bored fightening to keep connection. So started to let the connection slip through my fingers instead of hanging on and jerking my poor little arm muscles :rolleyes:

Sorry Chef even though I'm a fan of your posts I have to disagree with your idea that the follower should lean forward and not back on a step back.

One of my best dances ever was with a follower who was up from Cambridge at one of the last parties at Marco's in Edinburgh. She had a lovely smooth floating style but yet could whip across the floor still at a good rate of knots.

What I noticed about her style was that say after return on the step back she would take a small step away from me only one foot at most but then she would lean back with the majority of the weight on her back foot to an angle of about 45 degrees, in some cases her spare hand was nearly touching the floor!!

To be able to do that we had to balance our weight distribution through the tension in our connecting arms and the tension would have been roughly equal to 3 stones or so but as we were in sync and the tension came on and off smoothly it didn't feel jerky or sore, just felt like poetry in motion, well it did for me and the smiles on her face told me she was feeling the same.

I bet it looked good as well both stepping back and making a stylized V shape.

I know the Cambridge dancer is at the far end of the spectrum on the leaning back thing at 45 degrees but I think the majority of good dancers I've danced with in my 1 year so far Ceroc career have leaned back by 10 or more degrees.

I think dancing with someone who give me less tension than it takes to pull blue tack off the wall would be similar to a having a weak hand shake with someone, very unfulfilling.

Regards, DD.

Agente Secreto

14th-June-2008, 03:17 PM

I believe the advice about the follower not stepping to far away from the lead is vital in reducing jerkyness.
Agree with this bit, not sure about the rest of this post.

Sorry Chef even though I'm a fan of your posts I have to disagree with your idea that the follower should lean forward and not back on a step back.
Sorry but Chef is right. After the step back all the follow can possibly do is come forward again so they should be leaning slightly forward and on the ball of their foot ready to go.

What I noticed about her style was that say after return on the step back she would take a small step away from me only one foot at most but then she would lean back with the majority of the weight on her back foot to an angle of about 45 degrees, in some cases her spare hand was nearly touching the floor!!

To be able to do that we had to balance our weight distribution through the tension in our connecting arms and the tension would have been roughly equal to 3 stones or so but as we were in sync and the tension came on and off smoothly it didn't feel jerky or sore, just felt like poetry in motion, well it did for me and the smiles on her face told me she was feeling the same.
So let's put it another way, the lady from Cambridge leant back so far that it was almost like weight lifting to keep her off the floor. Because she was doing this you had to lean back yourself, in effect then she was leading you.:what: You do not use your body weight to get tension, and the idea of 3 stones of it doesn't sound at all appealing to me.

I bet it looked good as well both stepping back and making a stylized V shape.
:eek::eek:

I think dancing with someone who give me less tension than it takes to pull blue tack off the wall would be similar to a having a weak hand shake with someone, very unfulfilling.

The touch in the hand can be as light as you want as long as the tension is there where it counts and that is in the follows upper arm so that she can sense when you lead her and the body immediately reacts to the signal you make with your hand. I do agree that dancing with Betty Spaghetti is unfulfilling, but a rock-like handhold doesn't guarantee the kind of arm tension that makes the dance connected.

DundeeDancer

14th-June-2008, 05:22 PM

Agree with this bit, not sure about the rest of this post.
I think a dance with the Cambridge dancer would convince you quicker than one of my posts.

Sorry but Chef is right. After the step back all the follow can possibly do is come forward again so they should be leaning slightly forward and on the ball of their foot ready to go.
Sorry disagree with this in a number of ways.
I think the follower should step back placing the weight on the back foot and wait for the lead to pull them forward so the follower weight comes onto the front foot, otherwise how would the lead signal the start of the next move without pulling the follower off balance.
Also when the follower steps back there is a number of different things they can do.
They can lean further back like the Cambridge lady did.
They can dig there heels so they are given space to shake there booty.
They can step off to their left causing the dance to go in a circular rotation that gets me dizzy after a while.

So let's put it another way, the lady from Cambridge leant back so far that it was almost like weight lifting to keep her off the floor. Because she was doing this you had to lean back yourself, in effect then she was leading you. You do not use your body weight to get tension, and the idea of 3 stones of it doesn't sound at all appealing to me.
Yes, No, Maybe…lol

No, you can gain tension by using your body weight, in this case the tension was suspension of our body weights through our arms. As long as you put the tension on smoothly and don’t overpower your partner then it works really well.

Yes, it can be like weightlifting. Have you ever watch ballet dancers, they use lots of tension (compression, suspension) in lots of different ways and to do so they need to be incredibly strong.

Maybe, I won’t say the Cambridge lady was leading me by going down into a deeper lean on the step back as I could easily of overpowered her and pulled her back up again if I wanted, I could see and sense she wanted to lean away further and a lot of the time it fitted in with the music so I happily went along with it and though it was pretty neat as it gave our dance a style of it own which I really liked.

The touch in the hand can be as light as you want as long as the tension is there where it counts and that is in the follows upper arm so that she can sense when you lead her and the body immediately reacts to the signal you make with your hand. I do agree that dancing with Betty Spaghetti is unfulfilling, but a rock-like handhold doesn't guarantee the kind of arm tension that makes the dance connected.
Yip, the majority of moves you can use a light tension usually compression to lead the moves but some moves need a bigger force to work, like a lean or a deep dip, you need to move some of your partners body weight to a certain point to make the move work. I think the step-back is one of those moves where it works better if the tension is more on the heavy side, well that’s my personal preference.

DD.

Chef

14th-June-2008, 10:22 PM

DundeeDancer

15th-June-2008, 09:27 PM

What I noticed about her style was that say after return on the step back she would take a small step away from me only one foot at most but then she would lean back with the majority of the weight on her back foot to an angle of about 45 degrees, in some cases her spare hand was nearly touching the floor!!
Good Grief!
Good job you didn't try to lead her to walk backwards then. She would have fallen flat on her bum.

If I want lead forwards then I lead forwards. If I want to lead backwards then I lead backwards and to do that I need the follower to be pitched slighlty forward so the we immediately go into compression. If a follower wants to throw themselves backwards and expect me to stop them from falling over then I just don't want to work that hard and I will just find someone else to dance with. But if that sort of dancer is what floats your boat then go for it. Just not my cup of tea.

I think I see what you’re getting at Chef and I agree.

I think it’s to simplistic to say you need the follower pitched slightly forward, a better way to pitch it IMO would be to say you need the follower to have and react to the dynamic tension between you and her. Acting a bit like a spring to the tension you are putting into the dance.

Therefore after a return if you the Lead was pitched slightly forward and giving compression tension through the connecting hand then the follower should match it. In that position you could then easily lead them backwards and they wouldn’t fall on their bum.

On the other hand after a return, if you step back and have suspension tension running through your arm then the follower should match that tension by stepping on to their back foot and leaning back to match you.

The Cambridge dancer was a very good dancer and was just matching me and over emphasizing the lean back which was her style (which I loved), there was no throwing or yanking everything was very smooth, we had great connection and great dances.

I’m sure if I tried to lead her into walking backwards she would have reacted perfectly as she was a great follower and followed my lead with total ease.

When I gave advice to Jan I was talking about producing a dancer that I would like to lead and pitching it to a rusty intermediate. I thought it would be good for Jan to learn some things before she started to learn how to break the rules. Followers that throw themselves backwards and yank on my arm I can find anywhere.
Sure.

The best advice I can think of giving to Jan is to think of the connection between her partner of one of a spring which gently reacts to the tension between her and her partner. Sometimes the spring compresses and spring gently out again, sometimes the spring get stretched and gently pulls back in again but it’s always in dynamic tension from one end to the other.

So if Jan thinks about herself being half the spring gently and smoothly reacting to the other half of the spring to the Lead then her dancing will improve greatly without the need to remember any moves or difficult stuff like that.

You can read lots of stuff on outer connection (spring between you and your partner) and inner connection (the spring within your own body) on here, but doing a connection workshop or asking a good teacher or taxi dancer about connection (the springs :D) will improve your dancing so much within literally minutes.

Best wishes, DD.

Striving to be 22.5% better than my best.

Gadget

16th-June-2008, 01:24 PM

Sorry but Chef is right. After the step back all the follow can possibly do is come forward again so they should be leaning slightly forward and on the ball of their foot ready to go. After a step back, the follower has four options; most likely is stepping forward, but could be a step back, could be to have the trailing foot join the lead foot or could be to maintain the weight on the back foot. (*)
If the follower has the weight on the front foot, then you are correct: all the follow can possibly do is step forward again. Self-fulfilling prophecy.

As I said before; bend the knees in response to the speed of the music; a relaxed flex at 'normal' speeds, but the faster the track the more bent they become, which throws you more onto your toes and the more dynamic your dancing is.

So let's put it another way, the lady from Cambridge leant back so far that it was almost like weight lifting to keep her off the floor. Because she was doing this you had to lean back yourself, in effect then she was leading you.:what: You do not use your body weight to get tension, and the idea of 3 stones of it doesn't sound at all appealing to me.
. If both individuals learn to counter-balance (and that's the magic word, really) then the amount/degree/weight of lead is a non-issue. Imagine a scale with 1 gram on either plate...an additional gram will cause it to tip. Take the same scale and place a car (American of course!) on each plate and once again a gram will cause it to tip. How far back OR forward the couple decides to lean (placing their center away from their support) is up to them, but it should be balanced. If this is achieved, then all the arguments of weight/degree/amount disappear since both parties would not find it uncomfortable.
It's about balance and trust: Personally I find too much tension in a connection to be draining - but the connection is what works on the "Frame". Lack of frame is what causes spagetti arms, not lack of connection.

(Although Franck would argue that this is a lack of connection; just within the dancer's own body rather than between partners ;))

~edit~
* Note the advice is to do with stepping - not leading or following. It is possible to lead any step variation, and it is possible to follow it. But by assuming that the start of a lead into a step back will result in the next bit being a step forward, isn't this the same as assuming because the start of a "first move" was led that it will finish like one?

Agente Secreto

19th-June-2008, 12:42 AM

After a step back, the follower has four options; most likely is stepping forward, but could be a step back, could be to have the trailing foot join the lead foot or could be to maintain the weight on the back foot. (*)
If the follower has the weight on the front foot, then you are correct: all the follow can possibly do is step forward again. Self-fulfilling prophecy.

Just goes to show the peril of responding to posts out of context:flower:

If you care to look back at Chef's original note he was talking about a rock-step at the start. Unless I've missed something fundamental, the step back is normally followed by a step together.

Now technically you are right that with an experienced follow a good leader might just lead another thing entirely but thinking about that probably wouldn't be helping a rusty intermediate.

David Bailey

19th-June-2008, 08:58 AM

Argh! I keep misreading this thread title as "Busty intermediate"... :eek:

philsmove

19th-June-2008, 04:04 PM

(sometimes a big cheesy grin just isn't enough).

Jan

Rubbish

It is the most important thing
as every one says, Relax, enjoy, and just follow

Gadget

19th-June-2008, 06:16 PM

Just goes to show the peril of responding to posts out of context:flower:

If you care to look back at Chef's original note he was talking about a rock-step at the start. Unless I've missed something fundamental, the step back is normally followed by a step together.

Now technically you are right that with an experienced follow a good leader might just lead another thing entirely but thinking about that probably wouldn't be helping a rusty intermediate.
A 'rusty intermediate' won't be dancing with any "good leaders"? Isn't good technique "good technique" no matter what level you are?

I don't think it was out of context: Setting myself up for a fall here, but I think that there is no such thing as a "rock-step" within freestyle MJ.

There is a step back and a step forward, but I think a "rock-step" is an individual movement where the start and end are identical, the weight is transferred to the back foot and returned to the front foot. It is one complete entity with a start and end and does not allow for any changes to it - therefore an anticipatory move. Like starting a follower into a move and letting them get on with it, then collecting them at the other end.
...So I suppose that there could be a 'rock-step'... but it should be treated like every other move; should be led through-out and be subject to change. And you can't change it if you are single minded in the intent on stepping forward after the step back and don't give yourself any opportunity for variation. (ie don't actually transfer the weight.)

Another thing about the step back: try not to throw the shoulder (above the foot being stepped back onto) back. The shoulder should only come back on a preperation to a turn or spin. For the leads, this is rare, so they should seldom be anything but square-on to their partner.
If you find that the shoulder wants to go back, you are probably stepping behind the front foot on the step back; twisting the hips and so twisting the rest of the body with it. It also helps if your toes/foot continues to point towards your partner on the step back.
(Having feet paralell requires you to have more balance than forming a stable "T" with your feet, but the resulting 'straight on' hips and torso makes your dancing more focused on your partner without looking ungainly and twisted.)

stewart38

24th-June-2008, 12:22 PM

Lou

24th-June-2008, 12:38 PM

I've dance jive /ceroc since 1994 and nothing fundementally has 'changed'

There you go, Jan - problem solved. Just dance with Stewart all the time... :wink:

Chef

24th-June-2008, 01:06 PM

Rubbish

It {the big cheesy grin} is the most important thing
as every one says, Relax, enjoy, and just follow

If that what makes you happy. Down here a big cheesy grin and poor dance skills will only get you to the end of the first dance. There have been a few ladies down here that have tried the tactic of wearing high heel knee boots, short skirts and loads of cleavage on display to try and make up for not being asked to dance that much but all they have achieved is to attract the attention of people they don't want attention from.

Relax and follow are good things to do but being able to hold up your end of the bargain (or at least try) with some solid dance skills will get you a lot further than a big cheesy grin. I don't want people to look miserable and serious but you will get further with dance skills and a big smile than you will with a smile alone.

When I gave my advice I pitched it to someone who was returning to dance and in the belief that she was someone who would like to have no bad dance habits that would impede her progress. That is why I concentrated on the most basic required skills and only gave enough detail for her to make progress without being overwhelmed with detail.

But the subject of the rock step will not go away. I think of the rock step like having a person sitting on a playground swing. It easiest to push when the person has started to go away from me and I just add to the motion. It is easiest to pull when they are coming towards me and I just add to the motion.

I start the motion off by establishing compression with my partner (and before that I shift their weight so they step back on the foot that I choose) and leading their backward motion through compression. If I want them to put all their weight on their back foot, as I would in the case of getting them to walk backwards, I keep the compresion going, usually by maintaining frame and stepping towards them (so it is important that I have chosen which foot they step backwards on).

I can use lead and follow to communicate with my partner a whole host of movements instead of the standard rock step, but only if my partner is not in the bad habit of ignoring my lead.

So when someone asks your advice you can could give them the "big cheesy grin advice", let them pick up bad habits that will halt their progress at the beginner stage, or as I would prefer, ensure they don't develop bad habits from day one. The latter approach, IMO takes only a little more time to learn, but once learnt is an asset for a lifetime.

Jan in Notts

24th-June-2008, 09:53 PM

Where did you dance and where do you dance now ?

I've dance jive /ceroc since 1994 and nothing fundementally has 'changed'

Is this another Gus in disguise :whistle:

Hi, definitely not another Gus in disguise - if I was I would understand why the thread on going off modern jive has turned into a "handbags at dawn" row about the semi-circle step back - methinks there is more to the hijacking of that thread than meets the eye.......

I used to dance in Nottingham and Leicester with occasional visits to Ceroc Midlands. I have started back at Nottingham and also attended a recent freestyle at Rugby. My view is that there is a lot more focus on style and technique (obviously not a bad thing) and I am striving to improve my dancing in this area.

Thanks for everyone's comments which have been really helpful but to be honest I am finding that a lot of the threads on the forum are going over my head. This I think leaves me with the option of signing up for a workshop - unless anyone wants to offer free coaching next time they are near Marcus Garvey?? (still searching for cheeky monkey smilie)

ChrisB

25th-June-2008, 08:24 AM

Hi, definitely not another Gus in disguise - if I was I would understand why the thread on going off modern jive has turned into a "handbags at dawn" row about the semi-circle step back - methinks there is more to the hijacking of that thread than meets the eye.......

I used to dance in Nottingham and Leicester with occasional visits to Ceroc Midlands. I have started back at Nottingham and also attended a recent freestyle at Rugby. My view is that there is a lot more focus on style and technique (obviously not a bad thing) and I am striving to improve my dancing in this area.

Thanks for everyone's comments which have been really helpful but to be honest I am finding that a lot of the threads on the forum are going over my head. This I think leaves me with the option of signing up for a workshop - unless anyone wants to offer free coaching next time they are near Marcus Garvey?? (still searching for cheeky monkey smilie)

I dance at MG, in fact I was there on Monday. I'm in no position to coach but I'll dance with you :nice: