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View Full Version : Is floorcraft in WCS more difficult than MJ



Spiky Steve
3rd-June-2008, 05:59 PM
There was a thread recently comparing musicality in WCS and MJ.

I am learning WCS but wouldn't sacrifice blues for my basic WCS at the weekend. I came away with the impression that the blues/MJ dancers could manage the floor more easily than the west coasters who expect to stay in their slot?

What have people discovered ahead of me?

Spiky

Lee Bartholomew
3rd-June-2008, 06:06 PM
They could manage the floor better because they could move in to space.

If everyone stayed in a slot then you would hardly ever have a problem.

If traffic on a motorway was allowed to move side to side, up down and across, there would be a few problems. Stay in lanes in the right direction and the problems are minimalised.

MartinHarper
3rd-June-2008, 07:45 PM
Initally, on transition from Modern Jive to West Coast, the extra stuff to think about makes floorcraft in West Coast harder.
Later, floorcraft is about equal in both dances, but a shortage of space is more frustrating in West Coast, as it distorts and limits the dance more than in Modern Jive (and certainly more than grindy-jive).

Steven666
3rd-June-2008, 07:55 PM
Knowing just much room a westie wants for their slot is a big enough problem for me. ;(

StokeBloke
3rd-June-2008, 07:59 PM
I think that there's a common misconception that a slot is a fixed line on the floor that is about 6-8 feet long.

CJ
3rd-June-2008, 08:10 PM
Knowing just much room a westie wants for their slot is a big enough problem for me. ;(

Can we make "Westie Baiting" an official olympic sport??

Picture urself in the blues room... during a blues session... the marquee pumping out that R&B ***** that Westies love so much... and there we are... enjoying a moment...

RIGHT up until some Westie decides the end of his slot is right where I'm dancing with my partner... OK, per chance frotting...

And so... the only decent thing to do (for the bigger picture, U understand:whistle:) is to help this Westie's burgeoning floorcraft skills become slightly more honed by closing his slot a little.:D:devil:

ahem, I mean:innocent:

Spiky Steve
3rd-June-2008, 08:33 PM
I think that there's a common misconception that a slot is a fixed line on the floor that is about 6-8 feet long.

I have a lot to learn.

My next idea was to mark the slots like on a tennis court to make it more obvious that if there is no space then don't join the dance floor.

We could also have line judges in the case of collisions.

You have totally scuppered this idea.

Spiky

MartinHarper
3rd-June-2008, 08:33 PM
And so... the only decent thing to do (for the bigger picture, U understand:whistle:) is to help this Westie's burgeoning floorcraft skills become slightly more honed by closing his slot a little.:D:devil:

Regrettably, this looks to onlookers like you're so into your grindin' that you're oblivious to the rest of the dancefloor. They can't see your motives.

CJ
3rd-June-2008, 08:43 PM
I think that there's a common misconception that a slot is a fixed line on the floor that is about 6-8 feet long.

So, is it true that a slot is where U should do ur frotting??:confused:

:rolleyes:

Minnie M
3rd-June-2008, 08:48 PM
Initally, on transition from Modern Jive to West Coast, the extra stuff to think about makes floorcraft in West Coast harder.
Later, floorcraft is about equal in both dances, but a shortage of space is more frustrating in West Coast, as it distorts and limits the dance more than in Modern Jive (and certainly more than grindy-jive).


I think that there's a common misconception that a slot is a fixed line on the floor that is about 6-8 feet long.

:yeah:

As a WCS follower you really need to rely on the lead to where you need to be, as most of the time you are dancing 'backwards' - most new westies leads concentrate more on leading their partners and new patterns then floorcraft.

Brian Doolan
3rd-June-2008, 08:49 PM
Can we make "Westie Baiting" an official olympic sport??

Picture urself in the blues room... during a blues session... the marquee pumping out that R&B ***** that Westies love so much... and there we are... enjoying a moment...

RIGHT up until some Westie decides the end of his slot is right where I'm dancing with my partner... OK, per chance frotting...

And so... the only decent thing to do (for the bigger picture, U understand:whistle:) is to help this Westie's burgeoning floorcraft skills become slightly more honed by closing his slot a little.:D:devil:

ahem, I mean:innocent:

You're a rotten sod Robert :D

Whoever said WCS HAS to be danced in a fixed area slot? it's slotted only insofar as the moves and patterns dictate but the flexibility on, over and across the floor is very much the same as MJ.

Has nobody ever seen WCS showcases and demos? they use the floor just as much any other MJ showcases or demo.

Steven666
3rd-June-2008, 09:00 PM
You're a rotten sod Robert :D

Whoever said WCS HAS to be danced in a fixed area slot? it's slotted only insofar as the moves and patterns dictate but the flexibility on, over and across the floor is very much the same as MJ.

Has nobody ever seen WCS showcases and demos? they use the floor just as much any other MJ showcases or demo.

Whitch ever way you look at at, WCS requires unused slot space. When you move into that unmoved slot space you leave an area that is now unused. When the floors crowded it can make floorcraft a little more difficult.

Although MJ can be danced in the same manner, MJ can also be danced using very little space and not taken up space that's only used for part of the time.

Said that, I still enjoy watching WCS. Just can't bleeding do it for more than about 30 seconds.

NZ Monkey
3rd-June-2008, 09:06 PM
There was a thread recently comparing musicality in WCS and MJ.

I am learning WCS but wouldn't sacrifice blues for my basic WCS at the weekend. I came away with the impression that the blues/MJ dancers could manage the floor more easily than the west coasters who expect to stay in their slot?

What have people discovered ahead of me?

SpikyWCS at WCS venues and events is perhaps a little easier floorcraft-wise than MJ. WCS on the same floor as MJ is more difficult, as the MJ dancers can (and often do) drift into your slot while moving around the floor at random :devil:

To be fair, this isn't so much a WCS vs MJ issue as it is a "multiple dances on the same floor" one. You'd have similar problems with WCS and Salsa or anything that doesn't follow a line of dance and AT for instance.


Has nobody ever seen WCS showcases and demos? they use the floor just as much any other MJ showcases or demo.Ever see that same floor coverage in social dancing though?

Personally I find it easier to stay in one area social dancing WCS than MJ since the follower is told to stay in the slot most of the time and all I need to do is take a single step outside it for most things. In MJ there is a greater tendency for the follower to drift, and by compensating for that I tend to as well.

All that said though, with a good leader and follower it is easier to dance smaller in MJ than WCS.

David Bailey
3rd-June-2008, 09:13 PM
Although MJ can be danced in the same manner, MJ can also be danced using very little space and not taken up space that's only used for part of the time.
Dunno - MJ still has the accordion-type motion at the heart of it, so you need to open out occasionally. But yeah, probably less than in WCS from what I've seen.


To be fair, this isn't so much a WCS vs MJ issue as it is a "multiple dances on the same floor" one. You'd have similar problems with WCS and Salsa or anything that doesn't follow a line of dance and AT for instance.
Indeed, as I've noted with the MJ numpties at the SP Milonga.

TheTramp
3rd-June-2008, 09:15 PM
Personally, I think that it's pretty much the same.

When you're starting out, it's pretty difficult, cos you're concentrating on so many other things. As you get more competant at either dance, it should be easier; except for those that don't know, or don't care about floorcraft.

So, based on that, with so many more people still very much in the beginning learning stage of WCS than MJ, yeah, I can well see how you'd come away with that impression from the weekend.

Gerry
3rd-June-2008, 09:32 PM
Personally I think the floor craft skills are the same, as a leader it is my job to make my follower look as good as possible but I still have to ensure that I keep my follower safe by keeping an eye on the couples that surround me.
Where the problem resides is when leaders do not keep an eye on their slot. At SP I found that many WCS leaders still felt that they had a long slot and allowed their followers far to much rope when it was a crowed floor space.
Lastly I also found that some MJivers would see some space at the end of a slot and dive into that space, if they kept in a slot it could have worked but as they danced in a circle they started to effect other couples slots.

robd
3rd-June-2008, 09:59 PM
Can we make "Westie Baiting" an official olympic sport??


I guess there's not much chance of floorcraft issues arising during your afternoon sets CJ, there's usually plenty of unused space on the dancefloor around that time :innocent:

StokeBloke
3rd-June-2008, 10:52 PM
I guess there's not much chance of floorcraft issues arising during your afternoon sets CJ, there's usually plenty of unused space on the dancefloor around that time :innocent:I love tracks that are too challenging for some dance styles... it leaves the floor so pleasantly spacious to dance on :whistle:

robd
4th-June-2008, 07:36 AM
I love tracks that are too challenging for some dance styles... it leaves the floor so pleasantly spacious to dance on :whistle:

I guess that's why you sat out on the decking and left 'Now I Can Dance' for Fletch and I to slaughter then Stokie, eh? :D :wink:

Lory
4th-June-2008, 08:31 AM
WCS on the same floor as MJ is more difficult,

:yeah: To be honest, at Southport, in the Blues room...

..when I was dancing WCS, the Jiver's got right up my nose :angry: and when I was Jiving, it was the WCS'ers turn to get on my nerves! :angry:

IMO the two dances just don't work together, on the same floor!

David Franklin
4th-June-2008, 09:22 AM
..when I was dancing WCS, the Jiver's got right up my nose :angry: and when I was Jiving, it was the WCS'ers turn to get on my nerves! :angry:Similarly, when Hipsters had a sizable Lindy contingent, I'd hear the Lindy dancers complain about the MJ dancers being a menace and vice-versa.


IMO the two dances just don't work together, on the same floor!On the other hand, I found no problem dancing MJ at a fairly crowded WCS event in the US, but then my MJ is pretty strongly slotted.

Lory
4th-June-2008, 10:29 AM
, but then my MJ is pretty strongly slotted.

I think slotted Jive is the perfect solution but not everyone wants to Jive that way.

mikeyr
4th-June-2008, 11:32 AM
On the other hand, I found no problem dancing MJ at a fairly crowded WCS event in the US, but then my MJ is pretty strongly slotted.

There is a whole lot of WCS that can be danced in closed position for instance the whip, (where the follow ends up facing the lead) all these patterns can start and end in closed position. Dance with a short arm, it can reduce slot size by half or try bending and/or scrolling the slot to use whatever space is available. There are classes where all the above techniques are taught, just not in the UK, here closed is only used for the starter step.

A lot of WCS in the US in danced in bars where the dance floors are small (even by MJ standard) You may have WCS, Hustle, NC2step, MJ and solo dancers, (not to mention those just trying to get to the bar) all on the floor at the same time and it works most of the time.

NZ Monkey
4th-June-2008, 11:44 AM
Dance with a short arm, it can reduce slot size by half or try bending and/or scrolling the slot to use whatever space is available.Much like dancing to too high a tempo, there reaches a point where you can successfully argue the dance no longer resembles WCS. I'm not disagreeing that you can adjust a fair bit, but there's a limit to what you may be willing to put up with as what you're suggesting does change the look and feel of the dance quite dramatically.


.....just not in the UK, here closed is only used for the starter step.Quite a broad statements that, MikeyR. Care to back it up somehow?


A lot of WCS in the US in danced in bars where the dance floors are small (even by MJ standard) You may have WCS, Hustle, NC2step, MJ and solo dancers, (not to mention those just trying to get to the bar) all on the floor at the same time and it works most of the time.And people still complain, just like they do when WCS and MJ work most of the time on the same floor in the UK.

Lory
4th-June-2008, 12:02 PM
There are classes where all the above techniques are taught, just not in the UK, here closed is only used for the starter step.



That's not true, I've only danced in the UK but I've learnt lots of ways of getting into close hold mid dance and different variations built apon that.

I'd agree, its rarer that they're used though

DS87
4th-June-2008, 12:16 PM
There is a whole lot of WCS that can be danced in closed position for instance the whip, (where the follow ends up facing the lead) all these patterns can start and end in closed position. Dance with a short arm, it can reduce slot size by half or try bending and/or scrolling the slot to use whatever space is available. There are classes where all the above techniques are taught, just not in the UK, here closed is only used for the starter step.


I have to disagree with the section in bold as I have been to several classes taught by Paul Warden :worthy: that have covered all of these areas and I have learnt routines that are almost exclusively in closed position.

However I do like to travel when I am dancing WCS (although this too can be done almost exclusively in closed position) as it gives a nice flow to the dance and prevents the Newton’s cradle look to the dance.

I have no problem dancing in the middle of Jivers if they are dancing in a predominantly slotted fashion but in general I like to keep to the edges of the dance floor to minimise problems. I do get annoyed at people who move into an area of the floor that is slotted be that Jive or WCS and take no account as to which way the dancers are travelling.

My biggest gripe is when people completely ignore you if they have crashed into you or sent their partner into you :angry:. I always try and make a point to acknowledge the person that I have collided with and normally apologise whether it was my fault or not. Being completely blanked show a lot of inconsideration and rudeness.

MJ and WCS can get along fine :hug: as long as each others needs and dance styles are respected as much as possible.

mikeyr
4th-June-2008, 01:04 PM
Much like dancing to too high a tempo, there reaches a point where you can successfully argue the dance no longer resembles WCS. I'm not disagreeing that you can adjust a fair bit, but there's a limit to what you may be willing to put up with as what you're suggesting does change the look and feel of the dance quite dramatically.

WCS is a dance that is identified by number of things: Patterns mostly 6 & 8 beats in length, Patterns start usually with even no of weight changes(walk walk), patterns end usually with odd no of weight changes(triple) and is danced in a slot.

Dancing in closed and with short still allow for all of the above and the elastic stretch that is also characteristic of WCS.

If I change any of the above occasionly it doesnt really change the dance!



Quite a broad statements that, MikeyR. Care to back it up somehow?

True enough Iam going on my own (very) limited experience of WCS:blush:

So, to the UK WCS community in general. Have you ever been to class/workshop in the UK taught by a UK teacher where Dancing WCS in closed position has been a theme?

Has anybody been taught to do a closed whip other than out of a starter step?

Gadget
4th-June-2008, 01:42 PM
Ever see that same floor coverage in social dancing though?seen... no, I don't generally dance in halls with mirrors that big. :whistle:

If WCS is danced (predominantly) in a slot, and all these slots were orientated the same way, then you would still have a problem in floorcraft: one person moving back and another moving forward in the same "line". And if two couples were at opposite ends of their "slot" then a third couple could see the space and thing that this is the perfect 'slot size' for them to occupy.

Even in "same style" dances, I can't see numpties being eliminated - even with progressive dances, some folks travel faster/slower than others.

Perhaps MJ has the potential {;)} to be more floor-craft orientated - ie you can avoid collisions and move to safer areas without disrupting the dance too much.

NZ Monkey
4th-June-2008, 09:23 PM
WCS is a dance that is identified by number of things: Patterns mostly 6 & 8 beats in length, Patterns start usually with even no of weight changes(walk walk), patterns end usually with odd no of weight changes(triple) and is danced in a slot.I'd debate some of those points, but here isn't the place.


Dancing in closed and with short still allow for all of the above and the elastic stretch that is also characteristic of WCS.In a closed position absolutely, but keeping a very short rope in an open position all the time I find stunts the dance. The elastic stretch can still be acheived, but it's a much sharper stretch in comparison. On top of that you end up taking many more very tiny steps than are necessary to cover the distances you're dancing over.

As I said, you can do it - but at some point it losses the WCS "slinkyness" and starts feeling like a square peg in a round hole. I'd rather not be dancing it at all if I have to go that far.


If I change any of the above occasionly it doesnt really change the dance! Emphasis mine. For whole dance is a little more than occasionally in my books.



True enough Iam going on my own (very) limited experience of WCS:blush:

So, to the UK WCS community in general. Have you ever been to class/workshop in the UK taught by a UK teacher where Dancing WCS in closed position has been a theme?
I'm not sure it needs to be a theme of a class to teach. I've been taught various cut-off patterns that end in a closed hold though (and use a good number of them regularly). Additionally the closed position allows for a lot of interesting pattern extensions to fit the music. I'd probably use the closed position for a third to a half of most dances in one form or another.


If WCS is danced (predominantly) in a slot, and all these slots were orientated the same way, then you would still have a problem in floorcraft: one person moving back and another moving forward in the same "line". And if two couples were at opposite ends of their "slot" then a third couple could see the space and thing that this is the perfect 'slot size' for them to occupy. I said the floorcraft was easier, not that you didn't need it at all :whistle:


Even in "same style" dances, I can't see numpties being eliminated - even with progressive dances, some folks travel faster/slower than others.Not eliminated, but some dances minimise their potential to cause havoc more than others.


Perhaps MJ has the potential {} to be more floor-craft orientated - ie you can avoid collisions and move to safer areas without disrupting the dance too much. I agree that it's easier to pack up and move the dance somewhere else in MJ so in that respect it is more floor-craft oriented than WCS.

The problem as I see it though, is that as dancers you also need to have better floorcraft in MJ given the high concentration of numpties and the tendency towards brownian motion on the dancefloor. In other words floorcraft is less of a courtesy and more of a survival skill. If you insist on comparing the two dances in that aspect (which I think is little like comparing apples and oranges anyway....) then I'm not sure this is something in MJ's favour.

Dynamo
6th-June-2008, 01:06 AM
Personally, I think that it's pretty much the same.

When you're starting out, it's pretty difficult, cos you're concentrating on so many other things. As you get more competant at either dance, it should be easier; except for those that don't know, or don't care about floorcraft.

So, based on that, with so many more people still very much in the beginning learning stage of WCS than MJ, yeah, I can well see how you'd come away with that impression from the weekend.

Trampy, a good call as usual :yeah:




As a WCS follower you really need to rely on the lead to where you need to be, as most of the time you are dancing 'backwards' - most new westies leads concentrate more on leading their partners and new patterns then floorcraft.


Minnie I agree too. :yeah:

I am one of those fabled westie newbies, and am stuggling to learn and lead without poor floorcraft.

The greater choice of orientation and rotation in jive have offered me more chances to exhibit better visibility and so floorcraft. Trying to maintain the shape of wcs for other learners has certainly limited my options in floorcraft. :blush:

I am just learning to slide and rotate my slot, witout confusing myself and follower alike. :D

Maybe my origins in jive are too far away to recall how poor my floorcraft was originally, but in wcs, not untill I learnt how to move the slot while keeping all other motions going, so hopefully can I say my floorcraft is appearing in wcs.

I see my betters all around me :worthy: interpreting and punctuating the music :worthy:, while avoiding a myriad of jivers ,westie newbies and the just dont cares.