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Chris
21st-October-2003, 03:19 AM
I agree Hipsters caters to a very specific market but the point about 90% of most classes across the country ignoring the teacher and talking amongst themselves is very common too - whilst infuriating to some it is part of the laid-back approach that has probably helped ceroc to attract so many people. I remember attempting quiet, 'light conversation' when the class rotated in NZ and everyone just stopped - including the teacher and stared at me till I got the message double quick!:blush:

Amir, who is a very gentle personality, maybe had a rude awakening - I recall him looking at a class in London who had been chatting for about half a minute and saying in a puzzled voice - "Err . . . I'm not sure here - when I teach in NZ people - well, err . . . listen . . .":sorry

Different climate. You could maybe have a Cambers style weekend in Scotland (didn't Lindsay have a couple of residential weekends that went quite well?), but people chat in Cambers classes - Hipsters is the only one I know that has the market for experienced dancers who have fun taking it 'seriously' and I think that would be harder to reproduce in Scotland. :tears: One of the reasons Hipsters can succeed in London perhaps is because there are so many classes and for a large number of dancers to choose from, so a more specialised club still has a big enough market to succeed.

The main groups in Scotland are Ceroc-based, which has different overheads to other groups. If the groups cooperated more it would be easier to cover different markets perhaps.:wink: As the market-leaders, Franck and Scot would probably have to lead the way though. :what:

Chicklet
21st-October-2003, 09:37 AM
IF one of the organisations took the plunge and organised a "Camber at Ayr" for example - the site's not called Butlins anymore but it's that kind of thing and has an enormous "ballroom" and would be quite suitable - how could we attract the kind of people we would want to attract (in addition to all us forumites who would dance in a bus shelter (so long as it was no-smoking:wink: )??

Per this thread, in order to expand our good dancer numbers and general standard it looks like we want to attract people who haven't been before and wouldn't have imagined that such a thing existed so that means non-forumites who come to class 3 weeks out of 4 and like it but have no idea (yet) of what a world of events exists.

BUT would Ceroc allow the teachers to advertise it if it wasn't a Ceroc run thing - doubt it somehow.

Also, can anyone think of another way of getting the message across to the 3 out of 4s that there are more events to try and enjoy than just the class. The teachers try very hard to be upbeat and positive and sell the workshops and the big party nights but unfortunately when you look round the room a lot of people have switched off at this point and are nattering, others have cynical hard looks on their face and I remember hearing one bloke say how shocking it was that they did "this bloody hard sell" every week, it's all about money" I was fairly new at the time and couldn't think of anything to say to him as a retort - don't think I would be short of things to say now however!! - AND what about getting the teachers to say to the class hands up who's been to the Scottish Champs (for example) before and then saying just ina light hearted cheery way, "right everyone who's never been, ask these folks all about it" or a big "and who's going back next year" - I know it's a bit contrived but might it help the ones that never think about these things realise that people they dance with every week go??

Now I'm sure that the majority of people who have never been to an event probably can't even begin to imagine what it's like (by event I mean the Party Weekender things or Camber or a comp or even I suppose a workshop cos there are plenty who have never been to any of them!!) Would a board of photos on class nights help - again I guess we'd be limited to Ceroc events but would pictures of real people, that others might recognise, help??


And can I just add that (although it def does help - there must be something in the water) you don't HAVE to come from Dundee to be keen and willing to travel!!!:D

Heather
21st-October-2003, 10:58 AM
Originally posted by Chicklet
IF one of the organisations took the plunge and organised a "Camber at Ayr" for example - the site's not called Butlins anymore but it's that kind of thing and has an enormous "ballroom" and would be quite suitable - how could we attract the kind of people we would want to attract (in addition to all us forumites who would dance in a bus shelter (so long as it was no-smoking:wink: )??

BUT would Ceroc allow the teachers to advertise it if it wasn't a Ceroc run thing - doubt it somehow.


We in the MAd Crew have discussed this amongst ourselves before and having been to one of Lindsays weekend events at Airth Castle, I would say that it's an excellent idea. A whole weekend of dancing and workshops!! Just right up our street. The Lovely Sheena would be first to sign up I'm sure!!!:rofl:
As for who would run it, it wouldn't worry me as long as the quality of the teachers was good.
Franck and Scot have both organised some fantastic events in the past, Scottish Champs and Beach Ballroom to name only a couple, so how's about the two of them organising a dance weekender between the two of them. 'Guest teachers' need not only be strictly limited to Ceroc, as Franck has previously held workshops where David and the Lovely Lily were teachers.
Why not invite suggestions and input from Lindsay of Boogienights? Scotland is a small and friendly community of dancers, there is not the cut-throat competition that seems to exist south of the border, surely we can ALL work together to make something like this happen!!
Franck, Scot, Lindsay etc, comments please, you all have expertise in the organisation of dance events to contribute, why not work together to make this happen. I'm sure that you would not be short of volunteers to help out (the Dundee MAd crew, for a start!!)

:hug: :kiss:
Heather.

Brady
21st-October-2003, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by Chicklet
IF one of the organisations took the plunge and organised a "Camber at Ayr" for example

BUT would Ceroc allow the teachers to advertise it if it wasn't a Ceroc run thing - doubt it somehow.

Also, can anyone think of another way of getting the message across to the 3 out of 4s that there are more events to try and enjoy than just the class. The teachers try very hard to be upbeat and positive and sell the workshops and the big party nights but unfortunately when you look round the room a lot of people have switched off at this point and are nattering,

As Heather has mentioned, Lindsay (BoogieNights) has organised some great weekends (or so I hear!) at both the castle and Pitlochry (sp?), with top teachers from around the country. I see she already has the Swing Riot 2004 line-up (a fab one it is!) and wouldn't be surprised if there aren't more ideas brewing.

Advertising the non-Ceroc events is probably a no go at a Ceroc night, but that's not to say you can't tell a friend yourself. We all just want to dance and have fun, so why not promote all events??!!!!

The best way to get the message about any event (dance or otherwise) is through direct invitation. If you are standing there 'nattering' with somebody, make sure it's about the upcoming event! By the time the announcements come around, people tune out. A direct invitation will be more likely to work than the general one given by the teacher to everyone. Let alone, if a person is asked by a 'normal' person from the class (not the teacher or other staff), perhaps they will realise that not only the people who appear to be really serious about the dancing go to these things. They would also then know somebody who will also be going and perhaps feel more comfortable to show up, knowing that they will recognise or be able to speak to somebody at the event.

Just some more thoughts from the 'American' perspective!

Brady

Chris
21st-October-2003, 08:29 PM
Originally posted by Chicklet
IF one of the organisations took the plunge and organised a "Camber at Ayr" for example - the site's not called Butlins anymore but it's that kind of thing and has an enormous "ballroom" and would be quite suitable - how could we attract the kind of people we would want to attract (in addition to all us forumites who would dance in a bus shelter (so long as it was no-smoking:wink: )??


Brilliant idea on venue, Chicklet! . . .
:cheers:
We are talking big(!) numbers for a Cambers style event - that's how Cambers works - around 1500 people, lots of teachers, the sort of facilities and attraction that you can have with a group that size and also to make it viable for a Butlins-style venue. If Ayr only has one ballroom(?) then the numbers and logistics are slightly different.

This means marketing, to a bigger extent than Lindsay or Franck or Scot have access to at the moment I suspect (to attract 1500 you need a mailing list or something greatly in excess of that). The only three organisations I know of with that sort of database / mailing list are:

1) Jive Time (ie Cambers)
2) Chance to Dance (UK Open Championships Blackpool) and
3) Ceroc UK
(probably roughly in that order.

The investment is considerable, so people have to be able to make a reasonable return on a business basis, even if they are doing it mainly for the love of it and not being avaricious (some sort of cash flow is needed to make these things happen).

If one of those three is involved there is a greater chance of success as they have access to the numbers in terms of dancers. Jive Time is, as far as I know, mainly interested in things down south. Ceroc UK (as opposed to Franck) is probably still dealing with an inherited isolationist policy as well as all the time-consuming business of changing hands, which leaves Keith and Janey (C2D) as maybe the likeliest candidates . . .

Keith . . . hi (frantically waving emoticon to attract attention LOL)

C2D are also well respected across the board and Ayr isn't too far to consider maybe?

Having said that, it's a lot of work, but maybe Keith and Franck . . .

(hi Franck! repeat waving emoticon)

. . . could work something out between them? In terms of Ceroc cooperation and networking, the friendly links between C2D and Scottish Ceroc (like this Forum) are pretty groundbreaking so maybe they might fancy exploring possibilities? I also spotted Scot and some of the Scottish teachers at the last Cambers (copping a Blues class) so they have some direct experience of the scale.
:cheers:
Good luck! I think you'd have strong support from Scotland!

Heather
21st-October-2003, 11:05 PM
:D :D Forgive my ignorance, but I'm sure I read somewhere (possibly on this Forum) that Camber started off quite small with around 300 people and then grew as the years went on and news of it's success spread. Surely no-one in their right mind would realistically expect 1500 punters as a first time round venture in Scotland? Or am I underestimating the situation. I would doubt if you could muster up 1500 people , even if every (current ) cerocer in Scotland signed up !!
Surely we should not be trying to run before we can walk with this. I doubt if even 1500 people turn up for the Blackpool Champs. I certainly would tend to aim for a smaller number as a first 'go' at this. Also, seeing as it would be held in Scotland, one reason being that it's not so convenient for us Scots to pop down to Camber, I would certainly hope that priority would be given for Scots who wished to attend, not that we would want to discourage anyone else from making the journey up here!!!!

:cheers:
Heather.

Chris
21st-October-2003, 11:10 PM
Originally posted by Heather
[B]:D :D Forgive my ignorance, but I'm sure I read somewhere (possibly on this Forum) that Camber started off quite small with around 300 people and then grew as the years went on and news of it's success spread.

Fair point :)
:cheers:
I'm sure 300 or so would be very feasible - that's more along the size of BB or Rock Bottoms than a Cambers.
:cheers:

Chicklet
22nd-October-2003, 09:22 AM
Originally posted by Brady
, so why not promote all events??!!!!

The best way to get the message about any event (dance or otherwise) is through direct invitation. If you are standing there 'nattering' with somebody, make sure it's about the upcoming event!

Do this as much as possible - and proud to say have had a couple of successes!!


It occurred to me overnight that Ayr often has rock and roll or sixties weekends, which bring in punters and probably don't use the halls (really don't know if there is more than just the main ballroom that I remember) during the days - not IDEAL for everyone I know cos it's not everyone's taste in music but would sharing the weekend with one of these be a fair start??

If there was another hall to use for a DJ then sounds like not a bad combination for a start - and might well convert a few non dancers there for the music too!

C

Lounge Lizard
22nd-October-2003, 01:50 PM
Hi pleased to see this has got its own thread :grin:
I have been involved in the Camber weekends (which started at Butlins Bognor around 1998 I think) as a dancer, then teacher etc.
I now lay the temporary dance floor DJ and teach at these weekends and therefore get a pretty good insight.

So my comments in no particular order.

If Ceroc organise it will outside teachers/DJ be welcome (Ceroc UK may dictate this)
If a local organisation (Ceroc) held the event would their teachers/DJ's be left out of line up for outsiders? if so this may be unpopular.
Bringing outside teachers/DJ's may [will] me expensive

Venue - Select a venue with capacity for expansion - at Pontins or Butlins there is a various size halls available and it may be possible to reserve a second hall if take up is good.
Don't only look at dance floor size within the venue - nowhere has a floor big enough or 1500 jivers.

Car parking - ask anyone who has been to Camber
Time of year - Summer in Scotland Please
Administration - these things become monsters so beware if you are considering it.

Promotion - My personal feelings is that a total independent should organise it (why not ask Franco)
Yes you need a contact list, I don't think any one organisation has enough contact's for everybody north and south (Ceroc does not have the independent dancers)
so why not have an independent organiser working in association with other organisers.

All major organisations are given the opportunity to promote and sell tickets for the event at their venues and make a return for their promotion - the dancers go anyway so a small return is better than none
Each organisation puts forward a teacher or DJ for the Event if they want, so the whole weekend is represented by the best from throughout the region/country.
and each organisation gets full promotion for their venues/events
If it is in Scotland why not arrange transport from airport to venue (perhaps one of the parking company mini-busses)
Otherwise the dancers flying in may be put off.

loads more but that will do for starters.
Peter:cheers:

Jon L
22nd-October-2003, 02:47 PM
Just a thought here, but if enough of us from our part of the world agreed to turn up (and fork the dosh out in advance), could coaches, trains be hired scheduled to go from the main cities i.e. London, Birmingham, etc. etc?

Chicklet
22nd-October-2003, 03:01 PM
ref transport - another plus for Ayr - next town to Prestwick for cheap Ryan air flights from Stanstead and Bournmouth.

Forte
22nd-October-2003, 03:02 PM
Prestwick Airport is a very good point.:grin:

Bardsey
22nd-October-2003, 03:56 PM
Originally posted by Chicklet
IF one of the organisations took the plunge and organised a "Camber at Ayr" for example - the site's not called Butlins anymore but it's that kind of thing and has an enormous "ballroom" and would be quite suitable - how could we attract the kind of people we would want to attract (in addition to all us forumites who would dance in a bus shelter

Well I for one would certainly travel to a weekend event in Scotland and I'm sure a few others from Leeds would too.

Keep me posted if anyone does organise something please.

Dance Demon
22nd-October-2003, 06:16 PM
I have attended a few Party Weekender events in Wales, and have spoken to Darren Rodwell from Party weekender about the possibility of having one further north. I believe that it is part of his game plan to do one at Craig Tara(fomerly Butlins) at Ayr, which is a Haven Camp.
Darren has a fair tie in with the people at Haven. he already uses Warmwell in the South, and Hafan Y Mor in Pwllheli, so the natural progression north would be most welcome to us Scots, as it would save a 6 hour plus journey to Wales.
Think the likelihood of Ceroc running a joint venture with anyone else is fairly remote, as my experience has been that they treat anyone else that runs a dance event, however small, as competition.......however the new regime at HQ might have a totally new and different perspective on things...we shall see......

Bardsey
23rd-October-2003, 11:10 AM
Where exactly are Events posted on here? I have looked in Social Events section, but found it was people talking mainly about past and upcoming events. Is there an actual section where the ad for the event is posted, to give those of us in the back of beyond (well... Leeds anyway) the chance to book them.

I do realise that Blitz give out details of some things during lessons, but if you miss the announcement etc then by the time you've found out about it, its full or something.

Anyone ???? :kiss:

Sheepman
23rd-October-2003, 11:29 AM
Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
I have been involved in the Camber weekends (which started at Butlins Bognor around 1998 I think) as a dancer, then teacher etc.
That may be right in the current format, but in fact it all started at Butlin's Minehead, in 1992. About 30 of us, no lessons, no dedicated dances, just us crashing a normal music weekend, and enlightening some of the other 2000 punters. Even moving the tables back and dancing to the Juke box in the burger bar after we'd been thrown out of everywhere else. It's grown a bit since then!

Similarly with Beach Boogie, 1995, air steps lessons on the beach, timed to coincide with the low tide. Less than 20 of us camping, One night where we danced around the barby on the prom, another where we invaded a rock 'n' roll club, and enlightened the punters. I'm fairly confident that was when Nigel won his first comp.
It's grown a bit since then.

So my point is, maybe a bit of organic growth is needed. The market is now pretty full with the big events. (5 Rock Bottom's per year, if only I could do them all!!) etc. etc. It would be such a risk to start a big event from scratch. Maybe I'm being too pessimistic? With all that competition nearby, it's not just a question of the cost of travelling, but also the time. (One reason we REALLY appreciate it when you guys head south.) There again maybe the Scottish/Northern market is big enough to support such an event with just a few addicts from down south?

Greg

TheTramp
23rd-October-2003, 11:34 AM
Originally posted by Bardsey
Where exactly are Events posted on here? I have looked in Social Events section, but found it was people talking mainly about past and upcoming events. Is there an actual section where the ad for the event is posted, to give those of us in the back of beyond (well... Leeds anyway) the chance to book them.

I do realise that Blitz give out details of some things during lessons, but if you miss the announcement etc then by the time you've found out about it, its full or something.

Anyone ???? :kiss: There are 4 main residential dance weekend organisers on the jive scene.

Jivetime organise 3 weekends a year - 2 at Camber Sands, 1 at Bognor, both at hoilday camps (Butlins/Pontins). Both having around 1500 jivers

Beach Boogie (Jump 'n' Jive) organises a 2 week long (Split into 3 sections) dance camp on the Isle of Wight during August

Rock Bottoms organises 5 weekends a year on the south coast. All around 180-300 dancers, depending on the venue.

Party weekender organises 4 weekends a year, 2 in Warmwell (near Weymouth), 2 in Pwllheli (North Wales)

You should be able to find links to all of them on www.modernjive.com

Steve

Bardsey
23rd-October-2003, 12:07 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
There are 4 main residential dance weekend organisers on the jive scene.

You should be able to find links to all of them on www.modernjive.com

Steve

Thanks for that, Steve. I'll keep an eye open for those and take a look on the site you mentioned. I feel the urge to move out into the big wide world of jive!

Minnie M
23rd-October-2003, 01:18 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
There are 4 main residential dance weekend organisers on the jive scene.

Steve

Depending what you call MAIN there are actually more Steve, Boogaloo for one + Ron Kirby's (By the way Party Weekender only do one in Wales now) Plus the Cruise / Santa etc AND the swing ones like JATW and Jiveswing.com (Joseph's) and I could go on .......:eek:

Party Weekeneder's max is 650 - I think that should be the tops

I personally think that the Rock Bottoms ones are the best, the accomation is good, all the entertainment is under one roof including eating and sleeping AND better than that the numbers are small enough to get to know your fellow dancers.

I think a weekender north of the border near a 'cheap flight' airport is a great idea, I will definitely support this and promote it as much as I can. Preferably with the Rock Bottom's format (my apologies to Lindsay / Boogie Nights, I am not sure how your weekenders are run, although I believe they are more Lindy)

MinnieM (aka Lynda's List)

Bardsey
23rd-October-2003, 01:25 PM
I personally think that the Rock Bottoms ones are the best, the accomation is good, all the entertainment is under one roof including eating and sleeping AND better than that the numbers are small enough to get to know your fellow dancers
MinnieM (aka Lynda's List) [/B][/QUOTE]

Thanks for that. I've seen several mentions of Rock Bottom now, but haven't got the faintest what it is. I realise its a dance weekend/venue or something, but don't know when and where it held. As a lot of you on here seem to go to it, then its obviously a good place to start for me.

Can you let me know more about it?

Ta muchly !

:kiss:

Lounge Lizard
23rd-October-2003, 01:25 PM
For accomodation, food and great live bands boogaloo wins but the music is not main stream modern jive
p

Bardsey
23rd-October-2003, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
For accomodation, food and great live bands boogaloo wins but the music is not main stream modern jive
p


:eek: Boogaloo???? Rock Bottom????? Arghhhhhh I need someone to gen me up on these things !!! Please ! Be gentle with me, I'm new to this ! :confused:

Graham
23rd-October-2003, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by Bardsey
I've seen several mentions of Rock Bottom now, but haven't got the faintest what it is. Can you let me know more about it? Here (http://www.jivelive.com/rockbottoms/) is a link to their website.

Forte
23rd-October-2003, 01:46 PM
Graham - you are a whizz...:hug:

Bardsey
23rd-October-2003, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by Graham
Here (http://www.jivelive.com/rockbottoms/) is a link to their website.

Thanks a lot for that. I just took a look at it and its a really good site. I've signed up for their newsletter and I'll def see about going on one of the weekends early next year, if I can find someone to go with. I'm in a bit of a strange situation really as none of my personal friends go to jive, nor do they want to, and although I am fast making new friends at the classes, I don't know anyone well enough yet to ask if they want to go on anything like this. Still, there's time yet !

Minnie M
23rd-October-2003, 03:07 PM
Originally posted by Bardsey
I Can you let me know more about it?

Ta muchly !

:kiss:

Have a look at my web page www.lyndaslist.com - the holidays/weekender page - got most stuff on there, need to update with 2004 now !

Bardsey
23rd-October-2003, 03:34 PM
Originally posted by Minnie M
Have a look at my web page www.lyndaslist.com - the holidays/weekender page - got most stuff on there, need to update with 2004 now !

That is brilliant, thank you. I just took a quick peek and it looks to be just what I was looking for.

:cheers:

TheTramp
23rd-October-2003, 04:26 PM
Originally posted by Minnie M
Depending what you call MAIN there are actually more Steve, Boogaloo for one + Ron Kirby's (By the way Party Weekender only do one in Wales now) Plus the Cruise / Santa etc AND the swing ones like JATW and Jiveswing.com (Joseph's) and I could go on .......:eek: Well. Thought about adding in the Jiveswing ones. But they are more catering to those that want to learn Lindy IMHO - even when they do offer jive classes, all the music at the dance nights is swing, and they are also non-residential (though, obviously you can book a hotel yourself), and I did specify residential.

The others you list aren't jive at all, and hence don't come into the reckoning. If you want to include non-jive events, then there are many others - from salsa to lindy etc. And I'm sure that you do list them all on your most excellent list Minnie :D

Steve