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Stuart M
19th-October-2003, 09:26 PM
May have been discussed before but Musselburgh really brought it home.

We seem to have a dearth of good male dancers in Glasgow. I know speaking to some of the ladies over here that it's a real problem. One of them said to me on Saturday that there were only about 4 guys she'd consider asking for a dance on Wednesdays at the GUU. Not that there's only 4 good male dancers, but several of the decent ones just seem to be stuck in their ways, and aren't prepared to step beyond the "comfort zone". Think we really need to look at attracting more men to the classes in the hope of finding some dedicated dancers. Otherwise some of the good ladies will drift away (through boredom :o ) ) and possibly even the good blokes as well (through exhaustion...:really: ) In fact, these things may be happening already.

Personally, I've made an early New Year's resolution, to compete Intermediate next year as time and budget permits. It's both to improve my dancing and to keep the Glasgow flag flying (yeah, Sheena, I take the hint :rolleyes: ). So I'm in the market for a (dance!) partner as of now... no, don't all rush...:D

ChrisA
19th-October-2003, 10:01 PM
Originally posted by Stuart M
the good ladies will drift away (through boredom :o ) ) and possibly even the good blokes as well (through exhaustion...:really: )
Exhaustion????

Rubbish. If the blokes are getting tired, they need to get fitter, work out more, drink more water, change their shirts a bit more often.

Come on guys, there's a breach to step into. Up to the mark, now, and shape up.

Chris

PS How about a busk? A bit long term, but think of it like recruiting trainee doctors. The health service will improve as a result - but it'll take time.

Tiggerbabe
19th-October-2003, 10:36 PM
Originally posted by Stuart M

Personally, I've made an early New Year's resolution, to compete Intermediate next year as time and budget permits. It's both to improve my dancing and to keep the Glasgow flag flying (yeah, Sheena, I take the hint :rolleyes: ). So I'm in the market for a (dance!) partner as of now... no, don't all rush...:D

Thank you Stuart for an absolutely fab dance on Saturday night - I'm sure there will be lots of ladies keen to be your partner - just a shame you're not from Dundee :wink:

Stuart M
19th-October-2003, 10:37 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
PS How about a busk? A bit long term, but think of it like recruiting trainee doctors. The health service will improve as a result - but it'll take time.
Do busks work in attracting males to dancing? Being a reticent West of Scotland male most of the time myself :sorry , I know how I'd have reacted to seeing a busk - and it wouldn't have encouraged me to come along (I'm glad I never did see a busk before I started!). There's a huge "cringe factor" to overcome for a bloke, and seeing a bunch of people out on the street doing something "weird" doesn't overcome that IMHO.

Personally, I think busks are much more useful in attracting women than men.

Stuart M
19th-October-2003, 10:42 PM
Originally posted by Sheena
Thank you Stuart for an absolutely fab dance on Saturday night - I'm sure there will be lots of ladies keen to be your partner - just a shame you're not from Dundee :wink:
Maybe I should move and it'll rub off on me...c'mon, what's the secret?

Jam? :yum:

Reading The Broons every Sunday? :what:

ChrisA
19th-October-2003, 10:57 PM
Originally posted by Stuart M
Do busks work in attracting males to dancing?
I don't know - except that there were hordes of new people, men and women, at Hipsters following the previous weekend's busk.

There's now a real risk that Wednesday's will start getting crowded like Tuesdays :sad: :sad:

Chris

Forte
20th-October-2003, 11:06 AM
Originally posted by Stuart M
Do busks work in attracting males to dancing? Being a reticent West of Scotland male most of the time myself :sorry , I know how I'd have reacted to seeing a busk - and it wouldn't have encouraged me to come along (I'm glad I never did see a busk before I started!). There's a huge "cringe factor" to overcome for a bloke, and seeing a bunch of people out on the street doing something "weird" doesn't overcome that IMHO.

Personally, I think busks are much more useful in attracting women than men.

If you wore those flashing cufflinks you wore on Saturday night you'd attract all sorts!!:rofl: :hug:

Dave Hancock
20th-October-2003, 12:41 PM
I would totally agree that there is a real dearth of Glasgow male talent and I think that the problem may get worse before it get's better. IMHO there are a couple of main reasons for this:-

a) Lack of really good male dancers to inspire other less advanced dancers.

With the exception of Brady (who himself has come on heaps this year) over the past couple of years there have been a lack of role models. I was personally very lucky when initially started out that I had one or two males whom I could watch every week in Bill and Franck that I could get inspired by and I'd still attribute my liking of the slower songs and a lot of my style to Bill - thank you.

This problem in Glasgow is starting to sort itself out a bit, with Steve demo'ing on a Monday and myself helping out a bit on a Wednesday, along with Brady still coming along. (I would like to add that I'm nowhere near as good as the other two but I do have a fairly distinctive style which differs from Steve and Brady) which some folk seem to quite like.

b) Only one half decent night a week.

The Monday night class in Glasgow is in my opinion a bit of a shambles. It is situated in a poor area, with no parking, no drinks facilities and in a hall with poor sound quality. The numbers at this venue are disappointing and there is a lack of good dancers who attend. I have only visited this venue once as it was so poor that I have decided to go elsewhere to dance on a Monday night as I was very unimpressed with this venue (I'm aware that this venue has been touched upon another thread).

I would also say that I am very grateful to Ceroc for introducing me to modern Jive and I feel a loyalty to them, but as the venue stands on a Monday, there is no chance I shall return there in it's present format. I don't seem to be the only person who seems to think this way either as I tend to see quite a few Cerocer's at the other venue I go to on a Monday.

To improve with any good rate, dancers generally need to dance more often than once a week in a good quality atmosphere.

c) Variety of music.

My current gripe in Glasgow. (I'd admit that I do tend to like to have a moan from time to time re. music). I'd start by saying that the only Monday I went to I enjoyed the music and I'm sure if I went to the Monday I would enjoy the music still as am quite taken with the DJ's musical tastes.

However on a Wednesday the music is in my opinion very bland, with little if any variety. It has been commented and discussed that you can virtually guess the playlist before you go and there is little if any of the current Jive favourites which are played at this venue with far safer sets packed full of regular beat tracks being played. While such music is good for the freestyle between the beginners and intermediate classes and for a short period after the intermediate class it shouldn't be played all night.

There is very little music to 'play with' which can lead to a bit of monotony and it certainly wouldn't inspire the best of the dancers who may get a bit bored with the selection. It also means that up and coming dancers never get to hear the sort of songs which they'll come across in competition's and very little chance to pick up any musicality in their dancing as they continually dance to the 'same' music.

d) Taxi dancers.

My opinions on Glasgow taxi dancers is well known and have been posted on a seperate thread for anyone intersted.


However it is not all doom and gloom. While I can only speak for the last 3 months since I've been in Glasgow I think there has been a gradual improvement in standards. Venues and cities tend to have wee cycles when they have lots of new enthusiastic dancers joining and improving and also downturns when things aren't really going anywhere. I believe that Glasgow is presently on an upturn.

This is partly attributable to a couple of very good workshops held in Glasgow recently with Franck organising Nicky Haslem a short while ago and a rival mob taking Joseph and Trish up here a couple of weeks ago. Such workshops can only help inspire and improve the male dancers of Glasgow.

Also, Ceroc Glasgow have 2 very good teachers who are enthusiastic and are presently teaching some very good classes.

Think this just about sums up my views on Glasgow dancers, some of it being totally relevant to the male dancers and some of it is more general. I would also add that there are some fantastic female dancers in Glasgow and hopefully dancing with such talent shall help bring on the talent. In addition to the fabby teachers we also have established females such as Janet, Wendy & Frances who attend regualarly as well as a number of really good emerging dancers such as Nicky, Nicola, Maggy (who was in Alley Cats) among others coming through which shall also help improve the overall talent of modern Jive dancers in Glasgow.

Brady
20th-October-2003, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by Stuart M
We seem to have a dearth of good male dancers in Glasgow. I know speaking to some of the ladies over here that it's a real problem. One of them said to me on Saturday that there were only about 4 guys she'd consider asking for a dance on Wednesdays at the GUU. Not that there's only 4 good male dancers, but several of the decent ones just seem to be stuck in their ways, and aren't prepared to step beyond the "comfort zone". Think we really need to look at attracting more men to the classes in the hope of finding some dedicated dancers. Otherwise some of the good ladies will drift away (through boredom :o ) ) and possibly even the good blokes as well (through exhaustion...:really: ) In fact, these things may be happening already.

Interesting that you mention this Stuart, as I've heard the same thing from several of the Glasgow women lately. So, what is the reason that Glasgow is different from elsewhere? The GUU venue tends to have quite a high turnover rate, so does that keep the standard low? Are the classes not challenging enough? Perhaps the men don't have the desire to get any better? Should the classes incorporate more ideas to use in dancing rather than just move after move (of which most don't remember half of)?

Personally, I have found this issue to be killing the buzz that a night could potentially have. When a night is buzzing it is usually because there is just the right distribution of experience to keep everybody going and on a high for the entire night. Without this, the night can drag for some (usually the more experienced women), as the GUU has started to do the past couple weeks. If they get depressed and stop coming, then the experienced men go through the same thing, and eventually, it brings the standard of the night down. So, what's the solution to save the night?

Brady

Dave Hancock
20th-October-2003, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by Brady
Are the classes not challenging enough? .... Should the classes incorporate more ideas to use in dancing rather than just move after move

Think this is a chicken and egg thing, if the guys aren't very good then you have to tailor the classes as such, otherwise your classes run on for hours.

Agree with your second point entirely, although this is a problem at all ceroc classes I've been to in Scotland. Have sometimes noticed that some other venues just do 3 moves instead of 4 for the intermediate class which does allow the teacher a bit more time to try and add a bit of style to it.

Graham
20th-October-2003, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by Brady
Personally, I have found this issue to be killing the buzz that a night could potentially have. When a night is buzzing it is usually because there is just the right distribution of experience to keep everybody going and on a high for the entire night. Without this, the night can drag for some (usually the more experienced women), as the GUU has started to do the past couple weeks. If they get depressed and stop coming, then the experienced men go through the same thing, and eventually, it brings the standard of the night down. I agree. The week before jivemasters the Wednesday class really was buzzing, and as far as I recall there were only about 2 or 3 extra "good" male dancers there, but that was enough to give the right experience distribution Brady mentions. On Mondays at the moment it's completely dominated by beginners, with a few improvers/intermediates, and only two or three experienced dancers of either sex (if you don't count crew).

Thinking about it, it's not as if there are loads of good male dancers who have stopped going to Glasgow recently (Roy is the only one I can think of). I suspect the problem is more that there aren't enough emerging intermediates (compared to the number of good females). Since it's inevitable that some people will drift off for various reasons, maybe the key is in trying to encourage more people with "potential" to attend workshops, think about the competitions etc. As we boys never talk to each other, I guess it will need to be the women who lead this activity. So perhaps Stuart should go back to his "source" and tell her it's all her own fault!!! :wink:

TheTramp
20th-October-2003, 01:52 PM
Originally posted by Dave Hancock:
Lack of really good male dancers to inspire other less advanced dancers...This problem in Glasgow is starting to sort itself out a bit, with Steve demo'ing on a Monday

The Monday night class in Glasgow is in my opinion a bit of a shambles. It is situated in a poor area, with no parking, no drinks facilities and in a hall with poor sound quality. The numbers at this venue are disappointing and there is a lack of good dancers who attend. I have only visited this venue once as it was so poor that I have decided to go elsewhere to dance on a Monday night as I was very unimpressed with this venue (I'm aware that this venue has been touched upon another thread).I'm afraid that it doesn't look like I'll be demoing in Glasgow - at least not on a regular basis. I was only covering for the last 3 weeks, and I don't know who'll be demoing (or the DJ) tonight. Have a feeling it'll probably be Franck himself.

The class night in Glasgow on a Monday (IMHO) has potential, although, I admit that it's not the best ceroc night that I've ever been to :rolleyes: I don't know what the area is like since I'm not from there, and I have no idea how easy it is to get there on public transport. I quite like the hall though - the floor is good, there's plenty of space currently (which is great if you are wanting to practise), I have to say that I haven't noticed the sound quality being that poor, and being the DJ, I've had to pay attention to that aspect, and as for there being no drinks - well, as a non-drinker who can hence take free water to the venue, that hasn't bothered me at all - though, I do understand that other people do like a drink - especially usually the beginners, who aren't going to dance to every track.

I don't know where the other venue is, or what it's like, or what the standard of dancer is like there. But I think that if some more people gave the Maryhill class a chance, it wouldn't be that long before it had some atmosphere, and would be a decent night. I can honestly say that I've enjoyed the last 3 weeks of being there, and I'm sorry that I won't be going this week.

Steve

Chicklet
20th-October-2003, 02:41 PM
I haven't ben able to make it to Glasgow for a few weeks so perhaps my observations are out of date but for what it's worth -

Space - I often find Wed unpleasantly crowded - have been many times with every intention of dancing just about every track but have taken a bash, sat out a couple to rub something better and become a little demoralised ('ve got plenty of padding so I'm not talking about little knocks I'm talking about solid elbow bashes and full weight trodden on stuff).

I personally prefer a bit of space to move in and move into and I do flail my left hand and arm a bit more than some, but that's just the way I do it.

I know there's often more space near the door but try steering a lot of the Glasgow men into it!!!

Do we have another chicken and egg thing?? - my question is would a move to a bigger venue (thinking Woodside Hall) help rejuvinate the night, or would the West of Scotland males all congregate together so as not to look like they were "showing off" or "trying to be better than they ought"?

Would a fair dancer appreciate and experiment with extra space to try new more adventurous moves or styley things?? or is it just the better dancer who would actually use it to it's full?

NB this is THEORY, I KNOW there are availability and cost reasons why a bigger venue might not be practical, so please don't bring them up here.

I also know that the other Monday night venue that D speaks of is probably worse and I go there too when I can - I'm not saying this stops me going - I'm just saying that IMpersonalHO a move would add to my enjoyment - and asking if others feel the same.

Have also been to the Monday night at Maryhill a few times and really really WANTED to enjoy it (mostly as an alternative to the cramped conditions of the other place) but didn't, it just didn't work for me but again, would a move help?

Personally I think a move would help the Monday night as many might give it another go to see what it was like.

One last point, again in favour, in theory of the Woodside Hall with a high stage - In my experience the guys furthest away from the stage in the classes at the GUU don't always see the moves well enough, OK maybe they're not looking hard enough but it IS my experience that they don't get them as often or as quickly and a higher stage might help.

Interested to hear comments
C:D

Dave Hancock
20th-October-2003, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by Chicklet
Space - I often find Wed unpleasantly crowded

I've never really found space to be an issue on a Wednesday night although that's perhaps as I like a lot of the UCP moves.:wink:

I think that the way you have had a few bashes tends to suggest a lack of floorcraft ability from the male leads which again is only something you learn with experience.

Chicklet
20th-October-2003, 02:56 PM
Originally posted by Dave Hancock
I think that the way you have had a few bashes tends to suggest a lack of floorcraft ability from the male leads which again is only something you learn with experience.

could be - and I guess more likely to be learned out of necessity in a more crowded space, sigh, never an easy answer eh?

should I / we girls comment on it to the "offenders"??

I never have, when asked if OK after a bash have always smiled and said "of course" these things happen.

Maybe we need a band round our wrists that says "what would Heather do" :wink: :hug:

Dave Hancock
20th-October-2003, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by Chicklet
One last point, again in favour, in theory of the Woodside Hall with a high stage - In my experience the guys furthest away from the stage in the classes at the GUU don't always see the moves well enough, OK maybe they're not looking hard enough but it IS my experience that they don't get them as often or as quickly and a higher stage might help.


Slightly moving off-topic but this is a fairly interesting point re. where the class is taught, the best classes I think I've attended were in Auckland where the teacher and demo were on the floor among those in the class. This meant they were on the same level but it did mean that nobody was overly far away from the teachers at any one time as you can be when a stage is employed. This gave the teacher and their demo more of an opportunity to interact with the class and IMO they seemed to be more aware of whether the majority of the class were getting the moves or not.

Also remember Gus, Peter Phillips and Steve Lampert doing workshops on the same level as the class and these seemed to work well albeit with less numbers than a regular class night.

TheTramp
20th-October-2003, 03:07 PM
Yeah. It sort of works, provided the class isn't too big. Once the class gets to a point where it's too big for just one circle round the teachers, then it's harder for people to see, and the teachers should be on the stage.

I think that the other downside of being in the middle of the class, is that if all the guys round the circle are facing the same way, then half of the circle will be facing the other direction from the teacher. Which sometimes makes it harder to follow the moves - especially in things that are quite tricky.

The teacher should (and generally are I think) aware of how well the class are getting the moves. Although, sometimes, as a teacher, you have to just give up on a couple (or two), and move on, before the rest of the class lose the will to live.

On the bashing issue. I'd agree there is a general lack of floorcraft, although, sometimes accidents do happen. When you move your partner into a space, and someone else moves his partner into the same space, at the same time, then it's difficult to avoid. The thing that always annoys me though, is when I'm dancing on the same spot, and have been for several beats, and then someone crashes into me.

Steve

Chicklet
20th-October-2003, 03:10 PM
I meant it on topic as in, could this be a contributor to why some of the Glasgow guys who have been dancing for quite a while don't come on as quickly?

Completely agree it's not the height that particularly matters, just the ability to see properly what was being taught...but what you say also reminds me that in the smaller classes you mention the teachers were able to say "so and so" "try it this way maybe" etc so the teaching was a little more personal and detailed - now I guess this is at least partly a function of the fact that a lot of the the folk in the smaller classes knew each other before they got there and appreciated the attention as helpful pointers rather than embarrassing pointing out of deficiencies - so - NOW off topic, is there a Ceroc policy on the use of names from the stage or singling out of people, all in the interests of helping obviously?

just interested.

C

Graham
20th-October-2003, 03:55 PM
Originally posted by Chicklet
I meant it on topic as in, could this be a contributor to why some of the Glasgow guys who have been dancing for quite a while don't come on as quickly? I personally don't think so. I'm pretty sure that any of the men that are considered to be good dancers didn't get that way solely through attending the intermediate class, so whether or not they were able to pick up every single move shouldn't have been too much of an issue.

Lounge Lizard
20th-October-2003, 04:15 PM
Originally posted by Dave Hancock
Also remember Gus, Peter Phillips and Steve Lampert doing workshops on the same level as the class and these seemed to work well albeit with less numbers than a regular class night. Hi, for obvious reasons I dont know what the Glasgow nights are like, but I think the problem is common everywhere.

There has been a thread on Brighton where the dancers were really good as a result of many factors.
You guys have this in Dundee - something is working well there - good dancers develop good dancers (the ladies are generally quicker than the men on this).
Glasgow has some great dancers who will set the standard for others to follow - I know I danced with the ladies and have seen Brady, Dave etc. dance.
At my venue we teach the beginners class in a circle (Salsa style) and my co-teacher rotates, that way we get to dance the routine with everyone. This helps me with new beginners.
Our intermediate class is not to complicated and then we often have a 15min advanced development class expanding on the intermediate moves - this helps guys with lead etc. it is a small group in this class while the rest are dancing - we are lucky with our venue (but I choose it for this purpose).
p:cheers:

Stuart M
20th-October-2003, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by Graham
Thinking about it, it's not as if there are loads of good male dancers who have stopped going to Glasgow recently (Roy is the only one I can think of).
I suspect the problem is more that there aren't enough emerging intermediates (compared to the number of good females). Since it's inevitable that some people will drift off for various reasons, maybe the key is in trying to encourage more people with "potential" to attend workshops, think about the competitions etc.

That's pretty much my opinion, although it does show how thin on the ground guys of that standard are, if losing Roy/ gaining 2-3 good males makes a difference. The workshops really need to be sold more to the guys...


Originally posted by Graham
As we boys never talk to each other, I guess it will need to be the women who lead this activity. So perhaps Stuart should go back to his "source" and tell her it's all her own fault!!! :wink:
No, I think I want to live a little longer... :wink:

(And I'll bet you some folk think we're talking about Wendy, Graham :really: )

John S
20th-October-2003, 04:28 PM
I wonder if the problem of ladies lacking the really top-class male leads is wider than just Glasgow?

For example, from Dundee we had Sheena, Ann, Heather, Denise and Linda all competing and reaching finals or winning at Musselburgh with dancers who learned their trade down south - Steve (x2), Dale, David and Peter.

And I know several other ladies from Dundee who I would class as good "intermediate" dancers or better who couldn't even find a male partner for the Scottish Championships.

Add into the equation that Melanie and Gail were successful, but with English male leads (ok, James and Steven learned up here) and the fact that Brady (mentioned earlier in the thread) is as American as apple pie, and that doesn't leave many Scotsmen at the top, does it? Only Bill has had consistent success, I think (apologies if I've forgotten anyone), and that's in the Double Trouble specialism. Even Franck is less Scottish than his kilt, and that's saying something!:rolleyes:

Generally I think there are more ladies than men (at every level) who attend Ceroc, so purely on statistics one could expect more to reach the top level.

Add into that the Scotsman's innate reluctance to:
(a) take part in something where he doesn't think he has any chance of winning - except the Football World Cup; and
(b) listen to any constructive but ego-damaging suggestions for improvement in his performance - in any area of his life:rolleyes:

I don't have an answer to the problem, other than to suggest that the future lies in getting the males to learn while they're young and fit (witness James and the 2 Stevens in Dundee) and not like me, who's just glad to reach the end of the song without needing heart massage!:(

Dave Hancock
20th-October-2003, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by John S
I wonder if the problem of ladies lacking the really top-class male leads is wider than just Glasgow?

For example, from Dundee we had Sheena, Ann, Heather, Denise and Linda all competing and reaching finals or winning at Musselburgh with dancers who learned their trade down south - Steve (x2), Dale, David and Peter.

(

I tend to agree with the vast majority of what John has said, although it is as LL said in earlier in this thread of good dancers attracting others and increasing the dance ability of others. What is encouraging is the number of top of top teachers who have come up to Scotland this year (albeit across several organisations). There have been a far higher number of guest teachers here all of whom have terrific styles from which we can learn from. In addition prior to Mr Lampert moving north we really didn't have any dancers from the very top bracket which others could learn from witnessing week in week out.

IMHO the average standard of the Scottish modern jiver is higher than it has ever been and is improving which is also reflective of the fact that it is becoming more and more established, it is only 11 years old in Scotland and our southern compatriots have much more experience.

On the positive side though if you look in England then there isn't a huge amount of top class talent outwith London where the majority of the best dancers are. (Before flaming there are obvious exceptions to this). My point is though that outwith London there are not too many areas who can boast as many fine dancers as Scotland (though I believe Bristol probably has the edge on us).

We are a relatively small dance community but we are learning all the time and hopefully we can all continue to improve and to do well at the nationals. I certainly hope that Mel & James can have some success at Blackpool, that Steve does well, that our caberet teams do well, that Bill continues to have success in the double trouble and hopefully in the advanced and that John and Hazel strut their stuff in the seniors as well as they did this year.

I certainly hope that everyone can do well who goes south to compete next year and that we can all continue improving.

TheTramp
20th-October-2003, 05:01 PM
I think the nail has been hit on the head really. Without wishing to cause offence to anybody at all, there have not really been any male dancers (with a few obvious exceptions (yes, I'm not naming names here in case I leave anyone out)) here for the intermediate men to learn from, and progress further. Classes are generally aimed at the lower end of the intermediate scale, which I think is right, and hence, some dancers haven't really had the opportunity to achieve what they are really capable of.

However, the future is a lot brighter I think. There are some very good men coming through, and with the effort of the organisers in arranging workshops with some of the top National (and International) teachers happening on a more regular basis - as well as more people going to the bigger events down south - I really think that in the next couple of years, the overall standard in Scotland will improve tremendously.

Just to disagree with something you said though (on principle if nothing else). Having danced in both Bristol, and Scotland recently, I believe that Scotland definitely has the edge in fine dancers, and quite a lot of the Scottish ladies particularly (though some of the men now) wouldn't look out of place dancing anywhere in the country - including London.

Steve

michael
20th-October-2003, 05:58 PM
A lack of good male dancers in Glasgow. Does that mean the teaching standards in Glasgow is poor or the methods of teaching needs to be improved??? Or something else???

Since there is no lack of beginners the problem appears to be in the Intermediate section. Does this mean the intermediate standards are poor in Glasgow. With such a massively wide variation in dancing ability in that section is the problem converting those who are improvers/intermediates to progress to good dancer status. How come Dundee is doing so well, can we learn from what they are doing or are they all mad :wink: Ceroc is still a fairly new dance and must surely have loads of scope to evolve. How does one progress from beginner to intermediate: By going to a class for six weeks or whatever? surely not? is it that easy? That is what most people think (i think:innocent:). So how then do you progress from intermediate to "Good Dancer" status? go for a year or more or what? Where are the guidelines. Most on the forum apart from Chris moaned about New Zealand and exams. Surely we need some kind of benchmark standard? Not exams i dread the thought but.........

Sadly i dont see the existing teaching side of Wednesday classes helping me much to progress further....... Workshops are good but with fifty or more dancers there is a limit to what you will learn. Merely learning a new move every week (as Brady commented) in preference to learning how to dance may not be the best way to make progress. I am convinced now, that learning a new move (90% of them i will not use anyway) will not make me progress much. Being told i am doing this wrong or that wrong or hey you are doing that well "WILL HELP ME PROGRESS" and progress is what makes it all the more enjoyable for some and obviously to the better dancers who have to dance with you.

Help in the intermediate section is poor compared to the beginner section. As far as i am concerned i am a beginner until such times as a teacher at least watches me, observes my handhold, ability to lead and execution of several basic moves. Until the teacher tells me i am doing well enough to progress to intermediate i shall remain a beginner.


I have yet to see a teacher look at individuals closely and ask them to go through some moves either in workshops or in classes. Yes you may well frighten off some who hate to be told they are doing it wrong. Yes you may well loose some that have been there a while and resent being told they are not doing it right. But the standard of dancing would improve and everyone would have some idea if they are progressing or not. Those that want to progress are those that are there to stay. Those that do not lead or follow in the case of the female and those who do not have an acceptable handhold hardly make an enjoyable dance. I need to know and so do others one way or another. This should be done in the intermediate section as after six weeks the beginner is less likely to run for cover (out the nearest exit).

It is a pity that someone like steve (The Tramp) or Brady arent allowed to do what they would like to teach in the intermediate section of a class. Say we had that once a month and either of them concentrated on a particular aspect. Steve has incredible musical interpretation (dont think i can even spell the damn word) and Brady has his own style that is really smooth. This is talent that can be used to progress others up to another level.

Once a dancer reaches a certain standard he will do his own thing which is fine but until then........... Aplogise completely for such a boring and long post just had to make one final comment
:sorry :sorry

Forte
20th-October-2003, 06:02 PM
When I want to improve in other sports I have a private lesson. Tennis, skiing...horseriding...costly but I always come on heaps...just an idea...:nice:

Dave Hancock
20th-October-2003, 06:15 PM
Originally posted by Forte
When I want to improve in other sports I have a private lesson. Tennis, skiing...horseriding...costly but I always come on heaps...just an idea...:nice:

Never had one and would have loved to have had an hour with Amir watching me but had to cancel my class when he is up in Nove3mber due to best man duties. Anyone who is keen to progress should e-mail Lyndsay to see if there are any places left.

Re. Michaels comments, they are all written from the aspect of someone who wants to improve and improve quickly. Unfortunately for him, Ceroc is fun and a business. In a class it tries to teach as many people as possible to dance a few moves which they can add to others they know and have the confidence to freestyle which it achieves fantastically well. Nights at Ceroc are generally very enjoyable and fun. There is not the time during a class for the teachers to go into every aspect of every move as if they did then the class would last considerably longer, more advanced dancers would get bored (possibly stop coming) and there would be much less freestyle where individuals can fine tune their skills. Thus the teaching method can't change greatly if Ceroc wishes to maintain it's success.

I would advise anyone who wants to improve to seek out the taxi dancers and teachers to dance with them and then give them an honest opinion on what they are doing well or not. Alternatively seek out fairly advanced dancers to do the same (I believe Michael did this with Janet a couple of weeks ago). In this way you can get some different opinions on your dancing and you can take them or leave them.

Forte
20th-October-2003, 06:23 PM
I think it is good when more experienced dancers take an interest in the progress of newbies (I am a bit like Michael and really want to improve) Are you the Dave (Cos there are a few on the forum aren't there and more than one scooby)who danced with me recently and told me I was improving :hug: Don't mean to embarass either of us:blush: :blush: :blush: but it made my night! :grin:

Heather
20th-October-2003, 06:29 PM
:D I think it might be worthwhile pointing out that us Dundee dancers seem to be more likely and willing to travel outwith our fair city, to workshops, parties and dance events , than those from some of the other locations in Scotland. Notable exceptions being the likes of Bill, Dave Hancock and Brady, who coincidentally, are all accomplished dancers.
I personally think that making the effort to travel to dance events around the country, is almost certain to have a beneficial effect in improving one's standard of dancing.
If you only ever dance with the same people week in week out, you are bound to get set in your ways, get bored and this is bound to have a detrimental effect on progress.
The Dundee MAd crew make the effort to attend as many different workshops, and parties in venues all over Scotland. I think this has certainly made a BIG difference in our dancing progress. Can I also point out that up until recently, when the Invercarse was opened, we had only one Ceroc class per week, and now that the Olympia is closed we are back to one evening in Dundee. We are certainly not as spoiled for choice as are those of you in Edinburgh, Glasgow and down South.


:hug: :kiss:
Heather.

Forte
20th-October-2003, 06:35 PM
Originally posted by Heather
:D I think it might be worthwhile pointing out that us Dundee dancers seem to be more likely and willing to travel outwith our fair city, to workshops, parties and dance events , than those from some of the other locations in Scotland.

I also think, Heather, that it helps that you are such a group...it means you always have company to go to these events...I had to be very brave to walk into Perth on my own several weeks in a row...don't know if having to arrive alone puts men off or not. I Think perhaps they are better at going to things on their own than women...
but the point is those of us at the dance class have to be friendly if we want to keep people coming back through the door each week...:nice:
I was lucky I met you, Steve, Sheena etc ...the Dundee dancers are fun!

michael
20th-October-2003, 06:52 PM
Thanks for the comments Dave but the question of not having time to check individually the raw basics is really not that time consuming: How long does it take to observe if a person is holding their hand correctly or not. If one Karate instructor(as an example) can do this in a class of forty including their stance and hand positions then surely two dance teachers and another two taxi dancers if required could achieve that on a dance class:confused: In any case it might only need to be done once a month.

As to private lessons: Well yes definate if you want to improve fast but............ its nice to improve without them also.

Looking forward massively to the Amir workshop. I just have that feeling his style is just Brilliant (never seen him but the photo says a lot).

Seems to me that once you deviate from a move being taught to anything else, up cries "WORKSHOP" Thought classes were also about learning how to dance.

PS The dance with Janet was just that. I had no idea she was an advanced dancer. I have danced with her twice now and she like Sheena will comment if i have not done something correctly and also when i have lead well. Not slow to tell others how brilliant they both are. Just wish more experienced dancers would give feedback on errors especially. Off to dance now:D :D

DavidB
20th-October-2003, 08:24 PM
You get a very interesting effect when you try to teach technique in a normal class. 90% of the people there completely ignore the teacher and start talking amongst themselves. The other 10% try to listen, but they are the ones who probably have the technique already. You get a few more people interested if you talk about style, but not many.

Obviously it is different in a technique or style workshop, because the dancers there have paid money to specifically learn it. But in a normal class most people don't care, and don't want to learn it. Some will complain if they don't get their usual 4 new moves, and tell you that you wasted time talking about leading etc.

The few successful classes I've seen that included technique or style just introduced one or at most two ideas, and the moves were chosen to emphasise these ideas. Some would also have a 'Theme of the Month', and tried to improve specific areas (eg spinning) from one week to the next. But these classes were also small - I have no idea if this approach would work in a large Ceroc class.

Ceroc teaches a dance, not how to become a dancer. More importantly most people who go to Ceroc just want to learn a dance. They don't want anything else.

David

Emma
20th-October-2003, 08:53 PM
Originally posted by Forte

I also think, Heather, that it helps that you are such a group...it means you always have company to go to these events Yes..and workshops, etc. The thing I have noticed in particular about the scottish 'gang' (apart from the fact that there are so many truly lovely and *friendly* dancers) is that they do operate as a group. I would so love to be a part of a community such as you guys have where you can attend a workshop and then know that you will soon be dancing again with a high percentage of those who have also attended it in the near future. I'd be pleased to be even vaguely acquainted with a small percentage of the atendees on workshops I go to down here. :cheers:

And actually....I hadn't noticed the Glasgwegian men being all *that* short......hell but I'm not exactly lofty myself - so mebbe that's it :waycool: :grin:

Brady
20th-October-2003, 09:10 PM
Originally posted by Dave Hancock
Ceroc is fun and a business. In a class it tries to teach as many people as possible to dance a few moves which they can add to others they know and have the confidence to freestyle which it achieves fantastically well. Nights at Ceroc are generally very enjoyable and fun. There is not the time during a class for the teachers to go into every aspect of every move as if they did then the class would last considerably longer, more advanced dancers would get bored (possibly stop coming) and there would be much less freestyle where individuals can fine tune their skills. Thus the teaching method can't change greatly if Ceroc wishes to maintain it's success.

Dave has made a very good point here regarding the Ceroc organisation and its classes, and perhaps one that helps to answer the question. Ceroc is for fun and to get people to have an enjoyable night in a social atmosphere on the dance floor. Their aim is not to train people to become amazing dancers. If people want to do this, then they will have to look elsewhere. With little competition from other organisations or an abundance of workshops and weekenders in Scotland, it is difficult for those who want to advance to do so. I have found it necessary to make my way down south to the likes of MJC, Rock Bottoms, Beach Boogie, Hipsters, etc. in order to expand my dancing. There have been a few changes recently in Scotland, but these opportunities are still not as available as down south.

In terms of a regular night that does this, I think I would use Hipsters as a prime example. Having been there numerous times over the past 6 months it is very obvious that the target market at this venue are improving and advanced dancers. The teaching line-up (Amir, Nigel, Viktor, Andy & Rena) attracts a large crowd of high-level dancers who all help each other (beginners/intermediates included) to progress further. The classes are often taylored to develop dancers beyond just 4 moves. For example, this week (Tues.) Amir & Kate are teaching a short routine to the new hit My LA Ex (Rachel Stevens). Having seen other classes like this from Amir, Nigel, etc, there is no question that it will be original and provide some great ideas to not just use to this track, but in all aspects of your dancing. If you have any doubts, get along to Amir's workshop on the 8th!

At this stage, I don't feel that a weekly class of this sort would survive in Scotland due to the potential attenders being spread about the country, but what about a class of this sort once a month, moving about the country? Would people be interested in something like this, perhaps one Sunday afternoon a month. This idea exists down south, where a wee themed 'master class' is taught followed by a couple hours freestyle. I have been to one of these organised by Amir (last Sunday each month!) and it wasn't packed, but some great things learned in the class and good dancing afterward.

If you or others you know are interested in something like this, let me know (UK Dynamic Dance (ukdynamic.dance@ntlworld.com)) as I'd be keen to organise something if there is enough interest.

Brady

Lounge Lizard
21st-October-2003, 12:41 AM
I think you guys are underestimating yourself's
How many dancers in Scotland compared to dancers within (say)two hour drive from London.
There are a lot of good dancers in our area because there are a lot of dancers to choose from
We have sooooo many different organisations to learn from some good some bad but plenty of Varity.
We have venues like Hipsters where the Music is different to other Ceroc venues.
We have enough dance gods to please most
yet
You still have the best dance team's anywhere (sorry to the other non Scottish teams)
You have the loudest and proudest supporters anywhere
and you are the most fun
I think the dance weekends are great for development as you get 8 hours (or more!!) of freestyle dancing every night and workshops throughout the day.
So follow Brady's suggestion plus why not have a Camber type weekend up north
We have at least 12 weekend events a year down here, but I know the teachers/DJ's would love to be involved in a similar northern event - the first Camber event had 300ish dancers, look at it now!!

Gary
21st-October-2003, 03:05 AM
Originally posted by Dave Hancock
... There is not the time during a class for the teachers to go into every aspect of every move as if they did then the class would last considerably longer, more advanced dancers would get bored (possibly stop coming) and there would be much less freestyle where individuals can fine tune their skills...

I've been to a class where the teacher went into a lot of detail on some very simple moves, and I thought it was great, not boring at all (then again, I'm not advanced). I can understand how most folks would prefer to learn a broad range rather than a small number of moves in excruciating detail, though.

Gary
21st-October-2003, 03:07 AM
Originally posted by DavidB
...
Ceroc teaches a dance, not how to become a dancer. More importantly most people who go to Ceroc just want to learn a dance. They don't want anything else.

David

So if I do want to become a dancer, what do you recommend I do?

Stuart M
21st-October-2003, 10:46 AM
Originally posted by michael
Seems to me that once you deviate from a move being taught to anything else, up cries "WORKSHOP" Thought classes were also about learning how to dance.

Workshops are always what people are pointed towards when it comes to improving beyond the regular classes. However, workshops are almost always at weekends, and I like doing other stuff at weekends besides my dancing, particularly during daytime. Guess I'll just have to sacrifice some hillwalking for more workshops...

More problematically for me concerning workshops however, I've got a memory like a sieve and things rarely stick in my head :sick:. I have to practice the stuff straight away, or it becomes tough to remember :sad: . Doing things in lessons, just before a good freestyle session is a better way to learn IMHO - I've often wondered whether any workshop would consider using the last half-hour as a "coached freestyle", where the teachers watch people try to put the lessons into action, and provide pointers etc.

Finally, seems to me there's an unwritten rule in the various dance franchises that if they provide anything beyond the intermediate moves in the classes, then they'd never sell tickets for workshops. Personally, I think it'd have the opposite effect - if I'd had a taster of the kind of things taught in a Ceroc Style workshop for instance, I'd have booked one long before I eventually did!

michael
21st-October-2003, 12:39 PM
Quote from Stuart M:seems to me there's an unwritten rule in the various dance franchises that if they provide anything beyond the intermediate moves in the classes, then they'd never sell tickets for workshops. Personally, I think it'd have the opposite effect - if I'd had a taster of the kind of things taught in a Ceroc Style workshop for instance, I'd have booked one long before I eventually did!

Agree with that 100%. and i think Bradys suggestion of a monthly theme great. The present system (going by comments by others)appears not to be working in Glasgow so what have we got to loose.

David B comments with regards people not listening is a more difficult one to overcome. Lately i must confess that during the classes i find myself very occassionally switching off simply because there are no details describing the move other than the step back change hand or whatever. Surely if one wants to progress you have to extract the important wee pointers that are crucial to making it work properly and smoothly. If they are omitted i find the moves less interesting and more difficult to do properly. There must be loads of small important pointers that make your dancing more enjoyable and surely mentioning them every couple of weeks makes the class more interesting. Why not an odd class consisting exclusively of wee tips to improve your dancing. Also i take Bradys other point (and he should know!!!) mention of hipsters and having advanced dancers helping each other is a massive big plus. I noticed he did say HELPING EACH OTHER. Those who are good dancers should try more to help others with one big GIANT provision. That they are 100%certain that the advice given is correct. Maybe just maybe (treading on dangerous ground now ohhhhh) if some of the FEMALE advanced dancers and good dancers in Glasgow helped more of the improver/males in Glasgow then there might be a big improvement!! :hug: One has only to look at Nicky dancing with Brady at the Scot champs to see what can be achieved in the space of four weeks!!! big wow she was great.

And lastly (thank god you say) workshops that dont impart closer scrutiny of individuals is the normal i gather? 60 at the last workshop i attended, so difficult to do anything else. So why not a workshop on assessing your dancing and pointing out your major faults or just smaller workshops strictly limited in number. This was suggested by one of the female dancers last night and i think she has something. Limited to six males and six females and cost reflecting this i think it would be a winner. Private lessons is another level and some of us would rather not go down that route cost or whatever. Alternatively what is best 4-6 hours of workshops with say 40 plus attending or limited to 12 dancers for say 2 hours. You get a top named dancer and have three workshops of maximum 12 dancers for two hours with the personal touch or one workshop of 40+ for six hours no personal touch. Surely there is a limit to how much you can take in anyway. Personal pointers by an advanced teacher would be in the "Always remember memory bank" I dont know what is best being new to ceroc but others out there must know, so comments please.:D

Graham
21st-October-2003, 12:56 PM
Can I just point out that the standard cerocshops usually have much smaller numbers than the guest teacher or weekender events, and have more in the way of individual feedback. I certainly recommend that people attend a beginner cerocshop as a refresher - usually any really bad habits you might have picked up will be apparent even doing beginner moves, and the teacher ought to be able to spot them and give advice. Also, because there isn't the level of chit-chat you get at a class night, you'll be listening more closely to the teacher, and in any case they'll cover things in a little more depth than at the class night.

Eva
21st-October-2003, 07:38 PM
Originally posted by Brady
Dave has made a very good point here regarding the Ceroc organisation and its classes, and perhaps one that helps to answer the question. Ceroc is for fun and to get people to have an enjoyable night in a social atmosphere on the dance floor. Their aim is not to train people to become amazing dancers. If people want to do this, then they will have to look elsewhere. With little competition from other organisations or an abundance of workshops and weekenders in Scotland, it is difficult for those who want to advance to do so. I have found it necessary to make my way down south to the likes of MJC, Rock Bottoms, Beach Boogie, Hipsters, etc. in order to expand my dancing. There have been a few changes recently in Scotland, but these opportunities are still not as available as down south.

In terms of a regular night that does this, I think I would use Hipsters as a prime example. Having been there numerous times over the past 6 months it is very obvious that the target market at this venue are improving and advanced dancers. The teaching line-up (Amir, Nigel, Viktor, Andy & Rena) attracts a large crowd of high-level dancers who all help each other (beginners/intermediates included) to progress further. The classes are often taylored to develop dancers beyond just 4 moves. For example, this week (Tues.) Amir & Kate are teaching a short routine to the new hit My LA Ex (Rachel Stevens). Having seen other classes like this from Amir, Nigel, etc, there is no question that it will be original and provide some great ideas to not just use to this track, but in all aspects of your dancing. If you have any doubts, get along to Amir's workshop on the 8th!

At this stage, I don't feel that a weekly class of this sort would survive in Scotland due to the potential attenders being spread about the country, but what about a class of this sort once a month, moving about the country? Would people be interested in something like this, perhaps one Sunday afternoon a month. This idea exists down south, where a wee themed 'master class' is taught followed by a couple hours freestyle. I have been to one of these organised by Amir (last Sunday each month!) and it wasn't packed, but some great things learned in the class and good dancing afterward.

If you or others you know are interested in something like this, let me know (UK Dynamic Dance (ukdynamic.dance@ntlworld.com)) as I'd be keen to organise something if there is enough interest.

Brady

Eva
21st-October-2003, 07:52 PM
As a new member of the forum, I have no idea who Amir is or what Hipsters is. Can someone enlighten a poor niaive cerocer?. The suggestions about a master class sound great to me . As someone keen to improve my dance I feel the classes are unable to provide the personal feedback and tuition I need to improve my performance ( though goodness knows I need it ) . I agree the general class is not equiped to provide this but feel that as a lone woman the suggestion about travelling the country when you don't know many other dancers is really difficult. As an example I would love to go to classes in Edinburgh having danced with many good dancers at Musselburgh but feel that as an unknown face could be left sitting out for the evening . The response I know is that I should ask people up myself but this is not easy when you don't know people and are on your own in a new environment. A structured masterclass would go a long way to allowing us poor shy wallflowers an opportunity to improve without the possible embarassment of approaching unknown males and asking them to dance.
Originally posted by Brady
Dave has made a very good point here regarding the Ceroc organisation and its classes, and perhaps one that helps to answer the question. Ceroc is for fun and to get people to have an enjoyable night in a social atmosphere on the dance floor. Their aim is not to train people to become amazing dancers. If people want to do this, then they will have to look elsewhere. With little competition from other organisations or an abundance of workshops and weekenders in Scotland, it is difficult for those who want to advance to do so. I have found it necessary to make my way down south to the likes of MJC, Rock Bottoms, Beach Boogie, Hipsters, etc. in order to expand my dancing. There have been a few changes recently in Scotland, but these opportunities are still not as available as down south.

In terms of a regular night that does this, I think I would use Hipsters as a prime example. Having been there numerous times over the past 6 months it is very obvious that the target market at this venue are improving and advanced dancers. The teaching line-up (Amir, Nigel, Viktor, Andy & Rena) attracts a large crowd of high-level dancers who all help each other (beginners/intermediates included) to progress further. The classes are often taylored to develop dancers beyond just 4 moves. For example, this week (Tues.) Amir & Kate are teaching a short routine to the new hit My LA Ex (Rachel Stevens). Having seen other classes like this from Amir, Nigel, etc, there is no question that it will be original and provide some great ideas to not just use to this track, but in all aspects of your dancing. If you have any doubts, get along to Amir's workshop on the 8th!

At this stage, I don't feel that a weekly class of this sort would survive in Scotland due to the potential attenders being spread about the country, but what about a class of this sort once a month, moving about the country? Would people be interested in something like this, perhaps one Sunday afternoon a month. This idea exists down south, where a wee themed 'master class' is taught followed by a couple hours freestyle. I have been to one of these organised by Amir (last Sunday each month!) and it wasn't packed, but some great things learned in the class and good dancing afterward.

If you or others you know are interested in something like this, let me know (UK Dynamic Dance (ukdynamic.dance@ntlworld.com)) as I'd be keen to organise something if there is enough interest.

Brady :sick:

Eva
21st-October-2003, 08:11 PM
As a former loyal Monday night Cerocer the issues around this class are complex . I would agree with many of Dave's comments but some additional problems are that feedback was given over a long period of time about the choice of music played on the night . This was ignored for a very long period of time until numbers started to fall and then something was done to change this but it was too little too late as many people moved to the competition where the music was better. As someone who wants to improve my skills quickly I now go to a venue where there are more experienced dancers who can teach me new moves and give me the variety I need to develop my following skills. This cannot happen at Maryhill where there are often only 3 or 4 good dancers who can help me with this . Even at the other venue the good dancers are so much in demand that as a female I have to fight for floor time with those who I feel can help me improve. Also it's intimidating at times when a good dancer asks you to dance and you fear making mistakes so much that it can put you off asking them for a return dance .
Originally posted by Dave Hancock
I would totally agree that there is a real dearth of Glasgow male talent and I think that the problem may get worse before it get's better. IMHO there are a couple of main reasons for this:-

a) Lack of really good male dancers to inspire other less advanced dancers.

With the exception of Brady (who himself has come on heaps this year) over the past couple of years there have been a lack of role models. I was personally very lucky when initially started out that I had one or two males whom I could watch every week in Bill and Franck that I could get inspired by and I'd still attribute my liking of the slower songs and a lot of my style to Bill - thank you.

This problem in Glasgow is starting to sort itself out a bit, with Steve demo'ing on a Monday and myself helping out a bit on a Wednesday, along with Brady still coming along. (I would like to add that I'm nowhere near as good as the other two but I do have a fairly distinctive style which differs from Steve and Brady) which some folk seem to quite like.

b) Only one half decent night a week.

The Monday night class in Glasgow is in my opinion a bit of a shambles. It is situated in a poor area, with no parking, no drinks facilities and in a hall with poor sound quality. The numbers at this venue are disappointing and there is a lack of good dancers who attend. I have only visited this venue once as it was so poor that I have decided to go elsewhere to dance on a Monday night as I was very unimpressed with this venue (I'm aware that this venue has been touched upon another thread).

I would also say that I am very grateful to Ceroc for introducing me to modern Jive and I feel a loyalty to them, but as the venue stands on a Monday, there is no chance I shall return there in it's present format. I don't seem to be the only person who seems to think this way either as I tend to see quite a few Cerocer's at the other venue I go to on a Monday.

To improve with any good rate, dancers generally need to dance more often than once a week in a good quality atmosphere.

c) Variety of music.

My current gripe in Glasgow. (I'd admit that I do tend to like to have a moan from time to time re. music). I'd start by saying that the only Monday I went to I enjoyed the music and I'm sure if I went to the Monday I would enjoy the music still as am quite taken with the DJ's musical tastes.

However on a Wednesday the music is in my opinion very bland, with little if any variety. It has been commented and discussed that you can virtually guess the playlist before you go and there is little if any of the current Jive favourites which are played at this venue with far safer sets packed full of regular beat tracks being played. While such music is good for the freestyle between the beginners and intermediate classes and for a short period after the intermediate class it shouldn't be played all night.

There is very little music to 'play with' which can lead to a bit of monotony and it certainly wouldn't inspire the best of the dancers who may get a bit bored with the selection. It also means that up and coming dancers never get to hear the sort of songs which they'll come across in competition's and very little chance to pick up any musicality in their dancing as they continually dance to the 'same' music.

d) Taxi dancers.

My opinions on Glasgow taxi dancers is well known and have been posted on a seperate thread for anyone intersted.


However it is not all doom and gloom. While I can only speak for the last 3 months since I've been in Glasgow I think there has been a gradual improvement in standards. Venues and cities tend to have wee cycles when they have lots of new enthusiastic dancers joining and improving and also downturns when things aren't really going anywhere. I believe that Glasgow is presently on an upturn.

This is partly attributable to a couple of very good workshops held in Glasgow recently with Franck organising Nicky Haslem a short while ago and a rival mob taking Joseph and Trish up here a couple of weeks ago. Such workshops can only help inspire and improve the male dancers of Glasgow.

Also, Ceroc Glasgow have 2 very good teachers who are enthusiastic and are presently teaching some very good classes.

Think this just about sums up my views on Glasgow dancers, some of it being totally relevant to the male dancers and some of it is more general. I would also add that there are some fantastic female dancers in Glasgow and hopefully dancing with such talent shall help bring on the talent. In addition to the fabby teachers we also have established females such as Janet, Wendy & Frances who attend regualarly as well as a number of really good emerging dancers such as Nicky, Nicola, Maggy (who was in Alley Cats) among others coming through which shall also help improve the overall talent of modern Jive dancers in Glasgow.