Producing a decent dance event video [Archive]

DavidB

16th-October-2003, 11:32 AM

Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
but as we tend to get the vid's for the moves etc. Is the music being in sync more immportant than the atmosphere?Not everyone buys the video for the same reason.

There are (at least) two sorts of people who buy the video. The first is someone who wants a nice record of the day, and is reasonably well served by the style of the current video. The atmosphere is part of the event, so should be part of the video as well.

The second is the more serious dancer who wants to see as much of the dancing as possible, and nothing else. This person would ideally like the footage from each camera, as it gives them more to watch. Some people might just collect moves, and might even watch things in slow motion without the sound. Others might be interested in how people interpret the music, and would obviously like the video to be in sync.

Originally posted by Mary
and lock the whole lot together with time code hence eliminating any sync problems. All DV cameras have a timecode, not just semi-pro cameras. But this does not necessarily eliminate sync problems. The sound becomes 1 frame out of sync for every 13m you move away from the speakers. In a hall as big as Blackpool this can start to be a problem, and you might have to adjust things slightly to look and sound right.

Semi-pro cameras would have other advantages however, particularly better quality pictures, and the availability of wide-angle lenses.

A video club would be a good place to try as they might have the editing facilities as well.Editing facilities are not a problem. A PC running Premiere (or - just for Franck - an Apple running Final Cut Pro) is more than capable of editing multiple camera angles and soundtracks. For me the big advantage of a video club would be experienced cameramen, who might be able to keep things focussed!

Jon L

16th-October-2003, 05:56 PM

:waycool: The best jive video I have seen made so far of the ones in my collection is The Rebel Yell 2002. This video was different from the others in that a professional TV camera was used rather than a cam corder. The other advantage was that clip on Mics were used as opposed to overhead teaching mics. .

Of the Steve Strong videos, the Bognor one this year wasn't good sound wise and also the dark stage wasn't good for filiming. The others he has made, Stompin in Brighton, Mr Lounge Lizzard's collection and Mr Sweeney's D-T are much better,

As for learning things on videos, it is good to use them, however with some of the moves it is best to watch them then go back to the teacher and ask him/her to show you the move if you are at all unsure.

Mary

18th-October-2003, 05:52 PM

Originally posted by DavidB

All DV cameras have a timecode, not just semi-pro cameras. But this does not necessarily eliminate sync problems. The sound becomes 1 frame out of sync for every 13m you move away from the speakers. In a hall as big as Blackpool this can start to be a problem, and you might have to adjust things slightly to look and sound right.

Semi-pro cameras would have other advantages however, particularly better quality pictures, and the availability of wide-angle lenses.

Editing facilities are not a problem. A PC running Premiere (or - just for Franck - an Apple running Final Cut Pro) is more than capable of editing multiple camera angles and soundtracks. For me the big advantage of a video club would be experienced cameramen, who might be able to keep things focussed!

Good point. However, I was thinking more of slaving the cameras and DAT (or Nagra) to a generated time code. Mind you sound is not my department.

On a job last year for C4 we used 2 PD150's (semi-pro camcorders) slaved to the sound recordists Nagra (yes he was a bit old-fashioned) which also intercut well with the main bulk of the programme shot on digi-beta. (It was Shakespeare's As You Like It)

Have to agree Final Cut Pro is a superb package.:)

Technical stuff apart, there is no excuse for c**p operating. :mad:

M

DavidB

18th-October-2003, 08:09 PM

Originally posted by Mary
However, I was thinking more of slaving the cameras and DAT (or Nagra) to a generated time code. Here you have the difference between an amateur (myself), and a professional (Mary). She knows what she is talking about - I just think I do.

Mary

19th-October-2003, 02:06 PM

DavidB your points are very valid and accurate. I confess I specialise in film and do not know quite so much about video (especially in the domestic market), however you have now prompted me to investigate further with my colleagues the best way to do this sort of thing on an economical semi-pro basis.

However, I do not want to put peoples noses out of joint by being a snotty little know-it-all!

After seeing some dire competition videos, I was rather impressed with last year's Rebel Yell video, and such a quick turnaround.

M

uk-jive

20th-October-2003, 12:12 AM

I've been resurecting some video I produced for a charity jive marathon held about 4 years ago.

The purpose of the video was as a fun momento of the whole event, rather than trying to re-teach each of the routines. There were a number of guest teachers throughout the day & each of the routines (with class interaction) were edited to an appropriate music track. Trying to keep the dancing in sync with the music was a nightmare, but I think it worked ok.

Unfortunately, the video never made it to release, so all the hard work was in vain! :tears:

Here's a routine by Lincoln Bryden (Ceroc Cheltenham) where he reversed the male & female roles... very entertaining! The download is around 3mb (Windows Media), unfortunately, I can't afford streamed media hosting at the moment, so be prepared for a bit of a wait before the video plays...

http://www.video.uk-jive.co.uk/lincoln-bryden.wmv

Lounge Lizard

20th-October-2003, 12:14 AM

Originally posted by Mary
DavidB your points are very valid and accurate. I confess I specialise in film and do not know quite so much about video (especially in the domestic market), however you have now prompted me to investigate further with my colleagues the best way to do this sort of thing on an economical semi-pro basis.

However, I do not want to put peoples noses out of joint by being a snotty little know-it-all!

After seeing some dire competition videos, I was rather impressed with last year's Rebel Yell video, and such a quick turnaround.

M Hi
I know Steve and he would welcome any advise would you be able to contact him direct (I can PM his number).
Peter

uk-jive

20th-October-2003, 01:05 PM

As an addendum... Any comments about the video would be appreciated. If you feel the video is good enough, I have other routines which I may make available through the web, including a cool Kieran Loftus routine and a Kerrin Osmond (Blackpool champ) 'double trouble' class.

Originally posted by uk-jive
http://www.video.uk-jive.co.uk/lincoln-bryden.wmv

Mac

26th-October-2003, 12:08 AM

Hi I thought that I would log onto this forum to try to see if there was any feedback about the Ceroc 2003 Champs video but not a whisper. But imagine my surprise at the correspondence about the C2D 03 Video.

Im surprised because…. Yes! I put my hands up! It is I who produced it!
I also produced the c2d 02 and the Ceroc Champs 2001` 2002 and 2003 as well as Monster Jive Cocktail 4, 5 and 6.

Im especially interested in the comments that the video is out of sync. Im concerned about this because of all the 200 copies produced not one comment was received about the video being out of sync. I have reviewed the originals and still cannot see where this is the case significantly.

David B has very kindly corresponded with me directly at length about other issues he raised some of which may have interested you forum readers . It’s a shame he hasn’t had the opportunity to share our communication as this would have explained many of the issues discussed in this forum. Never mind.

There is one or two element where sync drift could have occurred apart from the valid point David B makes about couples actually being out of time! I wont mention any numbers ect but they will know who they are- needless to say they did not get any further than the first round. But in addition to this especially in the intermediate and Air steps heats couples insist on putting a polished finish to their routines even though the music stopped a good few seconds before. Nothing wrong with that but was without music as the track often finished abruptly before the end catching people out . This had me fooled and quite worried until I realised that this was the case, born out by reviewing the original unedited footage.

However there was a few technical problems on the day.

We did go into a live mixer feed via XLR inputs but the DJ on several occasions accidentally turned down the sound mid stream causing the slave unit to have significant 30 second + segments with no sound. (this was our error for not taping down the level so that it could not be adjusted accidentally.)

Also a tape broke in post production while I was laying off a naked stream for Clayton and Janine to audition for the ceroc champs showcases.

Both of these caused post editing difficulties but as stated on the master there is no evidence of sync drift.

Add to this the fact that the original edited offline footage was 5 ½ hours long due to the 16 showcases presented at c2d , making it necessary for the c2d team to review and decide what they wanted to take out to reduce the video to 4 hours and therefore a single tape. They decided that they needed to reduce all the early heats to half and so the middles were cut out. (on one occasion, sadly to my shame –badly cut) Also all the warm ups were cut and first or second competition heats (apart from the seniors I think) This was one of the reasons why the video also took a long time to be released. c2d had the footage for over four weeks in total to review it twice.

Another option which I suggested was that I produce a separate tape/DVD for the showcases but because as has been rightly stated in this forum the profit generated by the videos was necessary to offset other costs meant that c2d could not afford the extra costs. Because unlike our competitors we make no charge for covering events (generating our income purely on sales after the event) meant that we were not able to bear the costs either (sometimes harsh decisions have to be made which is a shame as I had a lot of fine dancing edited and left on the cutting room floor so to speak)

We relay heavily on the organisers of the videos to pick up on things we may have missed such as sync and spelling mistakes. Before the video goes into production they have to approve it which they did and they have not stated that the videos were out of sync. (mind you they didn’t pick up that one heat was accidentally excluded altogether nor did we so no system is fool proof!)

Perhaps some of you (apart from david b who has said more than enough already)
Could direct me specifically to examples of sync issues so that I can look again.

Just a quick note on sync techniques. We use a non-linier edit system. Premier for the offline edit and Avid 3.5 for the online final edit. We also use a system that allows me to sync our four cameras to the timeline using a time coded waveform monitor, accurate to one frame in 25 . This not only allows you to see all four video and audio waveforms at once (thus being able to see that the patterns all conform and so sync up) but it also alerts you to any footage that falls out of sync by more than one frame with its own audio thread or any other video or audio thread it was originally lined up with. This is further automatically monitored every 15 seconds. So you see in the editing process it is virtually impossible under normal conditions to be out of sync. That is not to say mistakes don’t occur of course they do!

I feel that I ought to point out a few other points

I was a dancer for many years, jiving well before the concept of modern jive was even heard of ( but I think the concept is great!)

We do use professional cameras as follows 1 x Cannon XM1 2 X Cannon XL1s and 1 X Sony DSR 250. We did use both mixed and ambient mics but c2d wanted mainly the mixer audio track only for the heats cutting out ambience ( their right naturally)

Another problem with the c2d event is as rightly pointed out, the venue. (Great for dancing, nightmare for video, check out the 2000 c2d not covered by us) The lighting and sound systems are very poor. If you compare the footage to the Ceroc Champs the difference becomes very apparent as both events were shot in the same way using the same kit.

I do in fact use film school students as crew as this is one of few opportunities for them to gain proper experience and get paid for it. In fact in their Uni I’m the only producer that does pay them!

Film schools cannot cover events outside their own student remits as this is prohibited as a condition by suppliers selling them cut price kit. They also cannot insure the kit off the premises and cannot afford public liability insurance. Video clubs often lack the proper equipment to produce the products and also have issues as corporate voluntary groups with liability insurance

I have seen our competitors products and as a professional I make no comment on their quality and technical issues. But its worth pointing out that without exception they are unlicensed. They are in effect pirate videos. Producing them without a licence or even buying one is illegal.

Organisations allowing unlicensed video productions of their events can have their PPL’s withdrawn and they can get hefty fines. Licences have to be applied for and approved before copies can be produced. There is no such thing as a home use only exception.

You don’t need to take my word for it. Simply log onto mcps.co.uk and read for yourself.. I think encouraging people to criticise my products so that a pirate can take the business is underhand at best. At worst its downright nasty and beneath what I have come to expect from the crowd I have met while videoing these events. Shame

I really value peoples comments on what they like and don’t like to see and I took david b’s points on board with really good effect that allowed me to produce a really good ceroc champs DVD (in my humble opinion at least)

Please feel free to advise me either directly on mac@jellybeanfilms.com or through this forum which I will watch with interest. Thanks for your time. Mac

Dreadful Scathe

26th-October-2003, 12:59 AM

Originally posted by martin McElroy
Im especially interested in the comments that the video is out of sync.

I never noticed the out of sync parts that others have mentioned. You dwell on this too much though it was only one criticism, what about the terrible footage e.g. dancers wandering off camera , and the terrible editing e.g. The team cabarets have giant ghost people on the same screen as tiny ghost people for many seconds..worst use of fade ive ever seen.

The videos and especially DVDs simply weren't worth the money, thats the main complaint. There are plenty licensed operators who could surely do better!

Mac

26th-October-2003, 01:11 AM

Boy that was quick! Um I have to confess the ghosting you refer to was deliberate I actuallly attempted to create a cross over effect to try to catch the mood obviously went down by like a lead ballon.!:tears: :tears: Sorry!

I agree the DVDs were and are far too expensive Unfortunately I have little control oer the retail price but I canm tell you its more than double my price to c2d Ceroc Champs is much better value:wink:

You cant licesnce oporators it doesnt work that way only specific events and only for a limited number of copies ( unless your going for it big time such as C4 or BBC or some corporate video makers. who do buy blanket licences but obviosly worth their while. Sorry if im harping on in the previous post but felt a real need to get it off my chest Thanks for your comments:sorry

Amir

26th-October-2003, 11:30 AM

I feel very strongly about this subject because I get very frustrated when I watch almost any jive-event videos. Fred Astaire formulated the fundamentals of how to film dance over 50 years ago, so there is no excuse for what we are seeing today. It is even more frustrating when we are told that private video-taping of these events is not allowed, when the official videos are so bad! Filming dance is not like filming a wedding. Fred said that either the camera would dance - or he would. In other words, special effects, fancy editing techniques, 'arty' angles have no place. The camera's job is to capture the dancing, not try make it look more exciting by clever fads, close-ups, quick cuts. Rebel Yell last year did a great job, filming the entire body, but allowing the dancers to fill most of the screen, and giving the dancers room to move into. As one of the dancers in the cabaret that year I was very excited to be able to see the result. I wasn't happy with my dancing, but I would have been less happy had my mistakes and inadequacies been covered up by dodgy editing. Also, the room was well lite, without any clever lighting effects. Ceroc this year was much better, but last year the lighting was appalling. If the dancing is so boring that it needs that flashing disco light then why bother? The fancy editing on MTV dance videos is often because the pop-stars aren't actually very good dancers, so it needs to be covered up. When you get a decent routine like on Thriller the editing will be much less involved.

In summary:

When filming one couple we should be able to see the whole body, almost filling up the screen, with more space in the area that you anticipate they will move next. The less cuts the better, and no close ups unless you know the routine and have agreed with the dancers that their facial expressions at that point are more interesting then their footwork, or the reverse.

When filming a group you should be able to see the whole group. If I'm buying the video because I or a friend is in it, I want to see them all the time, not the couple who happen to be in the centre of the room, or are closer the video. The viewer should be able to make the choice of who to watch, not the camera. This sometimes means that no individual is captured brilliantly, but atleast they all are.

Lily and I danced in the open category at Ceroc this year. We weren't allowed to tape it, but we danced two songs in all three rounds, so probably did about 6min x 3 = 18 minutes of hard dancing. And in the official video there is all of 2 minutes of footage. I'm not saying it should have focused on us the whole time. It should have been on everyone the whole time.

(I believe most people who buy a video either do so because they are in it, or know someone who is, or because they want to see a specific couple. )

And, while I'm ranting, the volume at these events needs to be loud for atmosphere. But the crowd is important for atmosphere as well, and if the music is so loud that you can't hear the clapping and cheering then it diminishes the whole thing. As a spectator I like to make a lot of noise, and like to be able to hear it! As a performer, I love hearing the crowd yell when we do something they like. Some times the music drowns it all out.

Gus

26th-October-2003, 11:58 AM

Originally posted by amir_giles
And, while I'm ranting........

If that’s a rant I wait with baited breath for a considered analysis:wink:

A number of excellent points well made. The main issue I would raise (for which I have no answer) is that a static shot of a dancefloor of 10 or so couples may result in the individuals being so small that the movements are not readily recognisable. Maybe there should be less couples on the dancefloor with a camera for each couple (especially for the final) ... and put it on a DVD that allows you to access your preferred dancer?

Mac

26th-October-2003, 12:13 PM

Thanks amir and Gus. Thats really helpful stuff! I guess we make the videos for the market as pointed out by David B 1 to try to entertain and 2 to try to give dancers a point of reference we cant do both but either way I ve been concentrating more on editing than dancing ( in My defence possibly to safe people from embarrising mistakes) SO I WILL DEFINATELY CORRECT THAT OVERSIGHT.

With Blackpool the problem (which I did not realise until after ) was that as the floor thinned out through the rounds so the floor became too big as people were really spread out. This meant tha we had to hunt for the dancers and which caused focus problems and visual voids (empty spaces)

The problem with Hammersmith is the opposit. Even with wide angle lenses you cant get the whole cabaret team in if its a large one ie as was the case of the winners this year (name escapes me but boy were they good!) I did get their facial xpressions from time to time as I found it difficult to fit them all in but never the less Im glad I did because they all looked great!

I did fit one camera with a "fish Eye" wide angled ense but it looked dire so I couldnt use it

Any other comments as the previous ones will be warmly received Thanks:cheers:

Amir

27th-October-2003, 09:05 AM

Yeah, obviously if the comp is set up poorly then it will be impossible to video it effectively. The event should be set up together with the camera operaters to allow the best capture, judging and enjoyment by the audience. See the most recent Australian Champs video for very good result. You could see all the competitors in one shot. There were no cuts, pans, close ups etc, and you can decide who to watch uninterrupeted.

Mary

27th-October-2003, 03:44 PM

Martin, good to have your take on the matter. It's always easy for people to criticise without knowing the full picture (sorry - no pun intended). My comments are not so much about the sync/sound issue, however, I remember commenting at the time how poor the acoustics were at Blackpool (everything else about the event was superb tho'). I would like to re-inforce Amir's comments about framing. I was taught a long time ago, whilst filming a ballet, never chop off the dancer's feet, allow more headroom for the arms and hands, and give the dancers space to move into.

Why do I buy a competition video? I think most people (but I could be wrong) buy the video for analysis. To see themselves perform, how they perform next to other competitors, and how the other competitors perform, or maybe just to see how your mates performed. Maybe something to bear in mind whilst shooting the event. For showcase routines, these are choreographed to face an audience/judges, so camera positions should always be from in front as in a theatre. Having a camera behind is a waste of a position.

This is not a rant, just observations.

M

Amir

27th-October-2003, 05:21 PM

Totally agree. I think someone said people either buy the video to watch themselves or for entertainment. I don't know anyone who has bought a video purely for entertainment (and not because they know someone competing or would like to steal some moves / pick up some tips or watch themselves etc).

I would be very interested to hear if there is anyone that buys the video without knowing people in it and not wanting to see moves etc, but simply to be entertained. I'm sure we could produce a much more entertaining modern-jive show if there is a market for it.

I don't know if there are many comp organisers reading this, but I would be interested in a byo option. I understand that you need the video sales revenue to cover costs etc. But even with all my above comments taken on board no general video will ever meet all my specific requirements of who I want filmed and from what angles etc. I would be happy to pay the cost of the video (15 pounds or whatever) to be allowed to have my own camcorder in the room. It would also save you the hassel of producing as many videos, and would mean I wouldn't have to wait three months to see the result.

Man. Thats the best idea I've had all day.

cerocmetro

27th-October-2003, 06:09 PM

Originally posted by amir_giles
I don't know if there are many comp organisers reading this, but I would be interested in a byo option. I understand that you need the video sales revenue to cover costs etc. But even with all my above comments taken on board no general video will ever meet all my specific requirements of who I want filmed and from what angles etc. I would be happy to pay the cost of the video (15 pounds or whatever) to be allowed to have my own camcorder in the room. It would also save you the hassel of producing as many videos, and would mean I wouldn't have to wait three months to see the result.

Man. Thats the best idea I've had all day.

Thought it was about time I had a say :devil:

The jivemasters video is out, it took two weeks. It is three hours long, excellent quality and only £12.50 etc etc etc. :waycool:

As an organiser I would stress that many of the events that are filmed make very little profit, if any. Video sales are one way to make up the losses, or make it a commercially viable event.

To let people use their own videos although a nice idea is not practical for several reasons :
Everyone would be pushing for a prime spot.
The event video would have no market as copies would be flying around.
Outsiders seeing an amatuer video would associate that with the event. personally I do not want six months hard work reflected in a poor home movie.

A well produced video is part of an event and should reflect the quality.

If you want to be filmed from all directions you have three choices, a) negotiate with the organiser, b) use a studio c) don't bother.

If this is harsh then sorry, I have just been pooed on twice after having changed four nappies

The JiveMasters video is possibly one of the finest quality dance videos ever produced. It is the longest, cheapest around. It has all the top dancers performing. It is a video everyone should have, it cover the heats, semi finals and finals.

Amir, if I have your address, your copy will be in the post, free of charge of course having been a competitor.

I am also curious to know that if you did have your own camera at an event, how would it cover you from all angles without driving the audience mad? Have you seen the quality of a camera when running round a room? To get a descent camera that would balance would cost several £100s if not £1,000. I think your offer of £15 may cover the batteries ???:really:

Your offer of having to produce less videos is very kind, it also means less profit :confused: I apologise if anyone is offended but some of us are doing this for a living.

That was your best idea? Bring on the rest, either that or come round here and take on Nappy duty

Adam

bigdjiver

27th-October-2003, 06:40 PM

Originally posted by cerocmetro

snipped

To let people use their own videos although a nice idea is not practical for several reasons :

Everyone would be pushing for a prime spot.

The event video would have no market as copies would be flying around.

Outsiders seeing an amatuer video would associate that with the event. personally I do not want six months hard work reflected in a poor home movie.

I am also curious to know that if you did have your own camera at an event, how would it cover you from all angles without driving the audience mad? Have you seen the quality of a camera when running round a room? Adam

I think we are barrel scraping for objections here.

Everybody pushes for a prime viewing spot anyway.

Few outsiders are so dim that they cannot differentiate an amatuer movie from a pro one. I very few that can afford to attend and own a camera is not going to buy the pro video as well.

I suspect Amir may have friends capable of swapping who have cameras too.

I think that the real reason is that video of these events may be worth a lot of money one day, and the organisers want an exclusive market. The organisers making money for their enterprise and hard work is alright by me.

I detest the imperious clause at many events that the organisers can do what they like with the video regardless of the feelings of the competitors, and do not share any rewards with them.

The best reason, which relates to the welfare of competitors rather than that of the organisers, and thus does not get a mention, is that competitors do not want their embarassing moments broadcast. Possibly appearing on channel X with their boobs hanging out or on "Are you being framed" is not why competitors practise and display their craft. I take it as read that every organiser will deny that this will ever happen with the official video. It is much more likely to occur if anybody can video.

David Franklin

27th-October-2003, 06:45 PM

Originally posted by cerocmetro
Thought it was about time I had a say :devil:

As an organiser I would stress that many of the events that are filmed make very little profit, if any. Video sales are one way to make up the losses, or make it a commercially viable event.

To let people use their own videos although a nice idea is not practical for several reasons :

Everyone would be pushing for a prime spot.
I'm just back from Rockbottoms. The audience space for the cabaret was very limited. Video recording was allowed. There was no pushing or shoving. People just accepted there'd be heads in the way and stuff. Better than nothing. Sadly also better than the typical event video for anything other than spotlight.

The event video would have no market as copies would be flying around.I do understand this worry. I do think most serious competitors respect the ethics of the situation, but it only takes one bad apple. But on the other hand, it's not like it's impossible to copy the event video. Personally I'd rather you just charged enough for the actual event. A lot of people spend enough on their dancing (practice, lessons, osteopaths :tears:... ) that an extra 25 quid to bring in their camcorder (*plus* paying for the event video) is not a big deal.

Outsiders seeing an amatuer video would associate that with the event. personally I do not want six months hard work reflected in a poor home movie.Adam - have you seen the C2D video? I've certainly done better with a camcorder (have videoed classes for the teacher at Camber). Also, amateur footage is clearly that - if people edit together 3 hours of footage, put in titles etc. you clearly have more room for complaint...

Your offer of having to produce less videos is very kind, it also means less profit :confused: I apologise if anyone is offended but some of us are doing this for a living.I think you misunderstood. If I pay more to bring in my camcorder than I'd pay for the video, and you don't have the costs of making me a video, that doesn't hurt your profits. (Though in the real world I appreciate you have to worry about piracy, and can probably get a better deal with the video company if you can promise exclusivity).

As a general comment on piracy - some people will do it, some won't. Personally, I like having "the real thing" - enough to pay for it. (I also have better things to do with my time at a competition than play cameraman for the whole day). I also know how expensive making the videos can be, and that if I want people to carry on making them, I should pay up. Other people just don't have any problem with piracy, and almost do so as a matter of principle. I've been offered enough copies of event videos to think you're deluding yourself if you think digicams are your threat - it's the people copying the official videos.

Adam - I think JiveMasters is quite different from a lot of other events - the spotlight format eliminates a lot of problems. But if you're one of 8 couples on floor at once, you really want a camera focussed on you. Yes, it's going to be a fixed angle, and it's going to miss stuff, but it is still probably going to be a lot better than the event cameraman will do. That doesn't mean anyone expects to be able to run around the floor for differing angle shots (I hope!).

Dave (P.S. Do we get a free video as well, or is it only the finalists? Not sure I want to see our heat again...)

Jon L

27th-October-2003, 06:58 PM

Agree with much of amirs comments re filiming

DavidB

27th-October-2003, 07:01 PM

Originally posted by bigdjiver
The best reason, which relates to the welfare of competitors rather than that of the organisers, and thus does not get a mention, is that competitors do not want their embarassing moments broadcast. Possibly appearing on channel X with their boobs hanging out or on "Are you being framed" is not why competitors practise and display their craft. I'd never thought of this before. Maybe there should be a 'Fair Use' clause in the video - the competitors agree to be video-ed (?), but the only agreed use of that footage is in the official event video. Any subsequent use of the footage (eg for marketing, or TV broadcast) should be negotiated separately.

On the subject of camera angles:
It is possible to have up to 9 angles on a DVD. You get the same soundtrack, but you can select which angle you want to see.
This would allow all the footage from all the cameras to be included.
Unfortunately not all the DVD production software allows the use of multiple angles. It has in the past been considered a 'professional' feature, and the software is priced accordingly (£3,000+) I think it might be available in some of the newer and cheaper software???.

jiveclone

27th-October-2003, 09:47 PM

Originally posted by DavidB
On the subject of camera angles:
It is possible to have up to 9 angles on a DVD. You get the same soundtrack, but you can select which angle you want to see.
This would allow all the footage from all the cameras to be included.
Unfortunately not all the DVD production software allows the use of multiple angles. It has in the past been considered a 'professional' feature, and the software is priced accordingly (£3,000+) I think it might be available in some of the newer and cheaper software???.

Presumably including multiple angles uses up more space on the DVD per unit time, so would reduce the length of the video that could be fitted on the DVD. So even if software cost was not a problem, it is likely that more DVDs would be required to fit the competition on, which would lead to increased cost.

DavidB

27th-October-2003, 10:28 PM

Originally posted by jiveclone
Presumably including multiple angles uses up more space on the DVD per unit time, so would reduce the length of the video that could be fitted on the DVD. So even if software cost was not a problem, it is likely that more DVDs would be required to fit the competition on, which would lead to increased cost. Completely true. But the better software has another advantage - it allows compression of the audio. With the cheaper software the audio can take as much as 25% of the space. After compression this comes down to about 5%.

Using this, and increasing the compression on the video as well, makes it possible to get over 2 hours of footage onto a DVD, and still maintain the quality. Next year should hopefully see the arrival of dual layer recordable DVDs (similar to the mass-produced commercial releases). This will instantly double the space to 4 hours.

The DVD blanks are getting cheaper. The first ones I bought were over £15 each, but I can get them for about £1 each from Maplin. (I've no idea when it becomes cheaper to get them commercially reproduced - ie pressing them instead of recording them.)

I doubt it will be long before we expect all the footage to be included.

Mac

27th-October-2003, 10:56 PM

Ok Ive obviously started something here! Thanks for al your helpful comments that i will take on board when we cover events. There is an official take on piracy and licensing and to some extent the following explanation should justify why organisers should never allow free range of video.

1 All video of a public event has to be individually licensed. This means that technically before you get the camcorder out you will have to have registered your intent and got permission in principle to video the event. thats EVERYONE who wants record even one routine set to a relaesed track of music. The minimum licence fee is £17.50 that may not sound a lot but added to every thing else it all ads up.
2 naturally this rule is hard to police so very little notice of it is taken in practice. But heres the danger. anyone who records footage is the owner of it and can legally do what they want with it. They are also responsisible if its illegal but as stated its easy to get away with. What you cannot do is prevent someone who has recorded from showing it wherever they like. (You can get an injunction currentlty costing £120. 00 un refunded.)

Let me tell you its big business to sell peoples embarrising mistakes. They are called Bloopers and one piece of footage sold to Youve been framed doesnt stop there. its remastered and sold on around the world and makes ten times the £250 they paid for it. Thats why thay love the wobbly cam concept.

At the modern dance events there are more flashing thongs, sweaty thighs and boobs accidentally displayed than I could shake a stick at.

As a licensed operator we sign up to a code of ethics which demands a certain responsibility especially if you want to avoid becomeing Rated by the censors (currently the events are exempt but this could change)

We in addition to this make our own promise that we wont exploit the footage in any other way than its originally intended use.

One competitor or spectator may take the same stance but the guy recording next to you may not. Again its impossible to police. so its best not to take a chance as your hard work could recorded at one event copied into another routine and within a week be presented at another event ( and I know thats happned). No licence or no official ban on videoing means simply no comeback.

You will have noticed that on our products that there is a clear marker= MCPS this shows that this product is licesned. In turn that means if any ekement of it is copied or misused The society (a government department ) will investigate complaints. Phew!

One thought about the Jivemasters video. The showcases are the easiest and quickest events to edit.

Also what do people think of introductions are they aw aste of time? what about the awards David B says he thinks people would rather see maore dancing.

Also we are always happy to try to hunt for raw footage of competitors if asked

Mac

Confucious - he say , "Man under car with spanner not always mechanic!"

Mac

27th-October-2003, 11:07 PM

Originally posted by DavidB
Completely true. But the better software has another advantage - it allows compression of the audio. With the cheaper software the audio can take as much as 25% of the space. After compression this comes down to about 5%.

Using this, and increasing the compression on the video as well, makes it possible to get over 2 hours of footage onto a DVD, and still maintain the quality. Next year should hopefully see the arrival of dual layer recordable DVDs (similar to the mass-produced commercial releases). This will instantly double the space to 4 hours.

The DVD blanks are getting cheaper. The first ones I bought were over £15 each, but I can get them for about £1 each from Maplin. (I've no idea when it becomes cheaper to get them commercially reproduced - ie pressing them instead of recording them.)

I doubt it will be long before we expect all the footage to be included.

Mac

27th-October-2003, 11:21 PM

Opps sorry for spellig mistakes :sorry

David B is right about DVDs coming down in price but exercise caution here. Unbranded DVDs are usually second quality branded DVDS that failed to make the grade (over 96% recordable) only two companies promise not to redistribute failed blanks. Imation and Verbatum . Also these unbranded blanks are now showing signs of deteriation which is not good news for something thats supposed to last over 100 years! As a guide you should not be able to see through a disc as the dye should be of sufficenit strenght to prevent it.

We use a software compressor that allows compression of audio and thats how we increased the lenght of the Ceroc 03 champs DVD. This is fine but it wont sound so good on a 5-1 surround sound system.

We could have easily produced a four disc blackpool video. The irony is that all the footage is edited offline then half is discarded (actually I always archive it all, you never know:wink: )

It would actually have been quicker and more cost effective to include it all.

Someone told me that many USA event DVDs have eight discs!

DVDs at consumer rates could have been out 10 years ago but was blocked every step of the way by the major players (whats new) the same issue is facing the DVD format wars and until this is resolved we wont see duel layer discs at a level where we can use them. they recon another three to four years but again you never know.

With current editing techniques you could easily have indiviual chapters showing individual dancers but it woulld still take a lot of editing.

I have edited indiviual routines as showreels for professionals but it does not come cheap im afraid.

Mac

:rolleyes:

Gadget

28th-October-2003, 11:10 AM

Re: spectators videoing

Just a thought, but why not "sell" videoing rights to competitors with conditions attached;
eg footage not for re-sale.
One of the conditions would be the media recorded on was given to the organisers (to be later returned) so that the footage would be available for editing into the video release.

This would give a lot more footage from lots of different angles to choose from, but would increase the editing costs dramatically by the time it was looked through, quality assessed, sync-ed...

Sort of employ the people who want to video it anyway as your own small army of camara-men. Thoughts?

David Franklin

28th-October-2003, 11:40 AM

Originally posted by Gadget
Re: spectators videoing

Just a thought, but why not "sell" videoing rights to competitors with conditions attached;
eg footage not for re-sale.
One of the conditions would be the media recorded on was given to the organisers (to be later returned) so that the footage would be available for editing into the video release.

This would give a lot more footage from lots of different angles to choose from, but would increase the editing costs dramatically by the time it was looked through, quality assessed, sync-ed...

Sort of employ the people who want to video it anyway as your own small army of camara-men. Thoughts?
Seems like the big issue is what the actual legal position is. If you were to try to cut between all the footage the editing costs would be unreal, but in practice you wouldn't do that. What I imagine the process would be is much more:

1. View all the footage to ensure there's nothing "dodgy". Edit out anything that is legally/ethically dubious. This would have to be done for each tape, but wouldn't have to be a proper edit - you could just overwrite with black as necessary. You don't need experts or fancy equipment for this stage I think.

2. During 1, make notes of any footage that is particularly better than the official footage. If the event cameramen are any good, there shouldn't be much, but if someone did, say, a toss throw, it might well only get caught by J Random Cameraman. Cull all but the best stuff. The total footage to try to edit in should be minutes rather than hours. The culling process will probably be quite time consuming, and requires good dance knowledge but not editing skill.

3. Only take that footage into the final (online) edit session. [Not sure what the best way of doing this would be - I'd certainly try to do it using home equipment rather than taking hundreds of DV tapes to an Avid].

In this context, the real emphasis is on vetting the contents of the tapes to ensure legality, rather than on expecting to get better footage than the official cameramen. I suspect this legal dodge isn't actually legal though.

Dave

Mac

29th-October-2003, 01:28 AM

Interesting comments from Gadget and Dave. It all sounds a little complicated though and not unlike the current procedure but would involve more tapes. Hurdles to get over are Lagality of filming and handing back privately wned footage after using it. Both not insermountable problems. There are definately germs of good ideas here though. I feel a thinking storm coming on and will post when I come up with something (Possibly):confused: :cheers: :grin: Mac

Ian W

29th-October-2003, 01:08 PM

Is a video (or preferably DVD) of the recent Scottish Champs. being produced?

It was my first visit to a competition, and I was amazed at the standard of some of the dancing.

Ian

bigdjiver

29th-October-2003, 06:45 PM

I have found this a very valuable thread.

One thing I hated about some night club venues is the weird lighting that completely destroys the look of some costumes, especially when seen on video.

One thing I liked about some venues is an elevated view camera transmitting to a large screen. This allows a lone cameraman to pan to that view on suitable occassions. It was used to good effect in the "Witch doctor" routine at the Le Jive championships, which still is one of my favourites for showing people that Modern Jive is about having fun.

David Franklin

29th-October-2003, 07:39 PM

Originally posted by bigdjiver
I have found this a very valuable thread.

One thing I hated about some night club venues is the weird lighting that completely destroys the look of some costumes, especially when seen on video.
Here are a couple of links discussing videoing dance. The second pays particular attention to lighting:

www.usaswingnet.com/video_production.htm
members.aol.com/eye4dance/private/strategy.htm

As another interesting note, the US Open (WCS) organizers preannounce the backdrop colours so that dancers can make sure they video well against it. (They also make an effort for it to be something black will show up well against - can't expect the men to wear anything else!).

Some thoughts of my own, as someone who has worked in post-production (CGI / compositing), but doesn't know a lot about camera work or editing:

0. It's all about the dancing! As an editor or cameraman, you may care if it's beautifully composed. As a dancer, I just want to be able to see. In particular, I want it to be more brightly lit than you probably consider ideal.

1. Keep the use of effects to a minimum. Unless you do them really well, they look awful, and even if done well, they usually stop us seeing the dancing. It's also just time and effort spent on stuff we don't care about (see point 0).

2. The advice I heard from editors is that >80% of edits should be simple cuts. I think this is even more so for dancing - the dissolves in the C2D video are just "dead space" in terms of being able to see the dancing.

3. Given the quality of most people's televisions, a pro-quality camera has a certain amount of resolution "to waste". What this means is that you don't have to zoom to the max and keep things so tightly framed that things often go off screen. You can do any necessary zooming afterwards in post. It's better to have to zoom in (with possibly slightly fuzzy detail) than it is to have stuff off frame, because in the latter case, there is nothing you can do to fix it.

4. Ideally you want someone who knows a lot about the dance in question to be present during the editing. It's unreasonable to expect a general editor to know what's good dancing and what's just a bright costume.

I'm sure we must have some people with more experience at the camera/editing stage who can give comments as well...

Dave

Gadget

30th-October-2003, 02:33 PM

Originally posted by David Franklin
3. What this means is that you don't have to zoom to the max and keep things so tightly framed that things often go off screen. You can do any necessary zooming afterwards in post.
I would have expected professional companies to record on a wider frame than necissary, and have the final cut zoomed in slightly so that the dancers can be positioned correctly within the frame? {ie head to toe with space to move into} Isn't that what producers and editors do?

David Franklin

30th-October-2003, 02:55 PM

Originally posted by Gadget
I would have expected professional companies to record on a wider frame than necissary, and have the final cut zoomed in slightly so that the dancers can be positioned correctly within the frame? {ie head to toe with space to move into} Isn't that what producers and editors do? My experience is at the FX-heavy end, where a lot of editing and rejigging in post-production was the norm. What you describe was certainly the case there. But I think in the fairly low-budget arena we're talking about, it's tempting to just try to "shoot it right" in the first place, and save on editing time/costs. There were a lot of dancers going offscreen in the C2D video (even in the spotlights). It looks mainly like bad camera work, but they made it difficult for themselves by zooming in so tight that the dancers didn't have to move much to go offscreen. I'd rather have the whole couple at half size than half the couple at full size!

Dave

Dreadful Scathe

30th-October-2003, 02:58 PM

Originally posted by Ian W
Is a video (or preferably DVD) of the recent Scottish Champs. being produced?

It was my first visit to a competition, and I was amazed at the standard of some of the dancing.

Yeah, poor wasnt it :). There may well be enough footage floating about for a DVD, but we would need to get it all collected together first, lots of people fiming the specific bits they were interested in. I only have 20 minutes worth myself.

michael

30th-October-2003, 03:47 PM

Producing a quality video of anything at length is rarely going to be simple. I had planned to do a fishing video for my work this year and had bought the necessary digital camcorder and tapes. Not much change out of £2,500 for that alone. Decent video editing software costs another £600. and that is before you purchase or make sure you have a suitable computer complete with at least a p4 2.6gh processor massive hard drive and quality capture card. Two monitors and or a spare tv screen adds to the quipment required. To do the job really well two cameras would obviously be better than one. Digital Video takes up enormous space less than 5minutes takes up 1gigabyte. In doing so it is compressed to about a fifth of its size without any reduction on quality and the sound remains perfect.

Only when i started to read up on the subject did i realise how difficult it is to do right. Movie Producers will often end up with a shooting ratio of 100: 1 Evening tv shows are about 25:1 -50:1

This means for every hour taped it has to be edited to a one hour tape. Most small filming events average around 10:1 That is still a lot of editing. As someone has already pointed out the sound in almost any film of substance is done seperately another major headache and expense. Knowing what to film and how, is another aspect needless to say i have not done the video and i even have doubts it will get done next year so worth having some feelings for the poor soul who is expected to produce the event. My thoughts were if you cant do it well enough then dont do it.

Cost is a major drawback and having four video cameras would probably allow great vantage points etc and save greatly in editing costs but how do you make a profit.

DS Comments on possibly using other peoples video if they were allowed. This could be an option if the organisors were to invite those with a suitable digital camera and tripod to position themselves at each end and use the same DV Tapes for everyone. The cameras would have to be capable of broadcast quality which would rule out any camers under £1,500 probably.

I have the dancing bug like many on the forum and i would like to see really good videos of the events at reasonable cost and obviously on DVD. Perhaps a more friendly helpful bit of teamwork beforehand and an organised set up with camera positions could make the possibility of a succesful event more likely ...just a thought and sorry again and again for the long posts.....Just not very good at editing:blush: :D

Mac

31st-October-2003, 01:02 AM

Thanks to everyone for their insight and points Really valuable stuff!:cheers: especially those lenghty posts !(call me a nerd if you like!)

To sum up my response is easy ! To make a decent video that people will find useful and not difficult to watch is for people like me to listen to people like you!:nice:

My lessons from this so far is to definately engage ,shang hi , bribe or other wise induce dancers to review tapes for me prior to final editing perhaps for a free copy and all the stuff I have thats been cut on them as a reward. (they would have to react quickly though as the other major gripe that people have (rightly so but difficult to avoid at times) is dwell time.

Thanks and keep it coming.!:cheers: :cheers: Mac

bigdjiver

31st-October-2003, 02:45 AM

When I was a member of an amatuer film club one speaker made the observation "You have to decide whether you are making a film, or having a holiday."

I think the same consideration holds here. We are having a dance competition, not making a video. This inevitably means that sometimes the quality of the video must be less than optimum, and we all have to accept that.

Jon L

5th-November-2003, 05:13 PM

I have just woken up after working the night shift, and found on the doormat my copy of the Rebel Yell 2003.

Again the quality on this one is superb, in terms of picture and sound, and is well organised.

The only thing that they could have done is taken some more footage both downstairs and upstairs later on.

:grin:

Chris

14th-November-2003, 05:56 AM

I've just enjoyed the Jive Masters video - great dancing and nicely produced (from the point of view of a viewer who is also a dancer).

It was interesting to watch and, apart from the fabulous range of talent on display, the main reason was simple - for most of the heats it was possible to watch the uninterrupted dance of each individual.

At bigger competitions this is obviously harder to achieve, but there are a couple of things I wonder if organisers might like to consider (if the event is well-formulated for videoing it may have factors that make the judging and audience enjoyment on the day higher as well.)

Watching this year's NZ Ceroc Champs, it is quickly apparent that some or all the events are on a stage, rather than a general dance floor - great for non-participants, but also easier for judges probably and undoubtedly easier to video.

Blackpool not only has a stage, but a minor tweaking to the format would allow finals and cabarets to be performed on it. Moreover, if the finals of the advanced category were kept to a reasonable number, it would be possible time-wise to allow each couple to dance separately (again, better for more accurate judging and better for spectators/viewers).

Much dissatisfaction has been expressed with Hammersmith as a venue. If Ceroc UK insists on having the event in London (which given transport links, is not unreasonable if other factors are covered), then IMO they need to find a more suitable venue (or get a professional company to find one for them).

I haven't seen any Aussie champs videos, but would be quite interested to see how they compare.
:cheers: :cheers:

neilh

18th-November-2003, 09:25 PM

Have read these threads with interest!
As a dancer, teacher and previous Media teacher, the only thing I can say is that the ONLY way to produce ANY sort of film is to use a dedicated crew - for 3 camera work, 6 operators, for sound AT LEAST 6 operators, lighting co-ordinator,runner,runner and floor manager ( all in contact at the same time ). Oh, and a vision mixer to mix it all "on the fly". Oh, and a full on-line editing suite. Say about £30,000 for a weekend shoot.

If it's any guideline, I was in a crew that produced a 15 minute training video for HSBC recently which had a 15 person crew, took 6 weeks to edit and cost over 20K.

One of the problems associated with miniDV is that unless you spend serious money, the capture speeds aren't quite good enough to track the dancers - especially in poor light conditions.

I could go on & on, but then I'd get VERY bored!
Ah well, see you on the dance floor!

Jon L

19th-November-2003, 06:45 PM

I have just got hold of today MJC7 from the summer at Bisley.

Now watching it, I initially thought oh it's just clips from the lessons, until I saw the end and realise they video'd the moves
there, so that's it is OK

One constructive criticism I will make of this video, is the camerman needed to take a very bright light around with him during the lessons and certainly during freestyle.

The problem is that with insufficient light cam corders tend to compensate and go into low lux settings which makes the picture very grainly in places which is what has happened in parts of the video.

Chris

20th-November-2003, 12:55 AM

Originally posted by Jon L
INow watching it, I initially thought oh it's just clips from the lessons, until I saw the end and realise they video'd the moves
there, so that's it is OK

Yeah I watched my last MJC video several times till I realised:blush:

btw I notice I've posted my link about Jive Masters to the wrong thread - MS Word doc downloadable insert with listings and video counters here (http://www.docker.demon.co.uk/dance/jmv.doc) if anyone wants it (plain text avilable if you don't have Word).:)

Graham

20th-November-2003, 01:37 AM

Originally posted by Jon L
Now watching it, I initially thought oh it's just clips from the lessons, until I saw the end and realise they video'd the moves
there, so that's it is OK Sorry, but I just don't understand what you mean, and don't have the video to try and work it out. Please explain.

Jon L

20th-November-2003, 05:51 PM

to reply - the video has clips of people in the class, but unlike the others. The actual full routines that are taught in the class are not on until the very end which is slightly unusual.

Mac

20th-November-2003, 09:49 PM

Hi Chaps. I did not produce MJC 7 as the timing went pear shaped. but it sounds like they followed the format of MJC 4 5 6 which I did produce. However on those we list all the footage with approximate times on the back cover so there can be no missing any of it! (including some funny instructor outakes at the very end::rofl: )

If we produce MJC8 they will be on DVDs with chapter stops and titles so it should all be a lot simpler!!:cheers:

TTFN Mac

spindr

20th-November-2003, 10:11 PM

Hmmm,

In fact MJC#7 *is* available on DVD -- I have a copy downstairs, as I type.

Unlike other event recordings it has a superb set of DVD "shortcuts" on the front of each of the disks.

To be honest I think Rob's done a great job editting it.

Neil.

P.S. I guess I should declare a vague interest, in that I was asked to hold a camera during the carabet performance.

Mac

20th-November-2003, 11:44 PM

Ceroc 2003, the new version of C2D 03 and MJC 6 DVD all have titles on them (shortcuts) Its not rocket science it just takes time and effort . Im glad to see that MJC 7 is continueing in what is gong to be a very useful trend!

ps want a job?!

Mac:cheers: :wink:

RobC

21st-November-2003, 02:08 AM

Um, MJC6 was never produced on DVD - only VHS !!

RobC

21st-November-2003, 02:12 AM

Originally posted by martin McElroy
Ceroc 2003, the new version of C2D 03 and MJC 6 DVD all have titles on them (shortcuts)

The C2D 03 DVD I have doesn't have any titles - is there a new version available ? If so, can existing owners exchange their non-titled copies ?

RobC

21st-November-2003, 03:04 AM

Originally posted by Jon L
to reply - the video has clips of people in the class, but unlike the others. The actual full routines that are taught in the class are not on until the very end which is slightly unusual.

OK, hands up - I produced the MJC7 video/DVD this year. Being the first time I have done anything on this scale, I welcome feedback from anyone who has taken the time to watch my work and type a reply.

As has been mentioned earlier in the thread, people buy these dance videos for a variety of reasons. Jive Bug decided that the videos of their Monster Jive Cocktail events should take the form of a diary of the event, trying to capture the spirit and mood of the day/weekend. It was for these reasons that I followed a similar format to that used by Martin on previous MJC videos. It is immediately clear from the running order printed on the back cover of the case what is on the video, with the teacher demonstrations of the routines they taught during the day being listed as the last thing on the tape / DVD.

Lessons have already been learnt about the way the event was videod this year, and the way we video the teacher demos will be improved on next year if I am asked to produce it again.

Point taken about camcorders going 'grainy' in low light conditions. Only one of the three cameras we used this year had a light on it. This is something I may review for next year as well, however the MJC videos are produced on quite a tight budget, so hiring additional lighting/sound/semi-pro cameras etc is probably going to be too expensive and would push up the production costs of the video. This year I just had to make do with the colour correction facilities in Premiere to brighten up the video ...

BTW, the MJC7 video/DVD is correctly licensed with the MCPS. To any other video producers, I strongly recommend that you take a look at the MCPS website and license your products correctly. As Martin pointed out, any reproduction of another artists work, even just a few seconds of music as background music that people are dancing to, is considered piracy unless correctly licensed and leaves you open to potentially serious legal consequences.

Rob C.

Jon L

21st-November-2003, 05:55 PM

Originally posted by rcoward
OK, hands up - I produced the MJC7 video/DVD this year. Being the first time I have done anything on this scale, I welcome feedback from anyone who has taken the time to watch my work and type a reply.
Rob C.

Thanks Rob for responding to the comment I made re lighting. Whenever I give feedback, I try to be constructive rather than slagging things off. Much appreciated.

:)

Mac

21st-November-2003, 10:57 PM

Actually it was but it was'nt advertised. so no one knew about it but I produced it and it does exist so if you want it here it is, come and get cos baby its a going fast (well not actually but couldnt resist the pun):rofl:

Mac

21st-November-2003, 11:08 PM

Also , forgot to say again that Im grateful for feedback to answer the issue of replacement DVDs from those without Chapters to those with, It depends er you have a re writable copy or write once! (we did some of each) if you have a re writable then Im happy to exchange as we can still use them. (to check read the faint writing on the clear centre part of the disc (it should read DVD+RW or DVD+R the former is what you want)

Mac

:cheers:

Mac

27th-November-2003, 12:23 AM

:blush: Um Ive been asked to point out that MJC 4-5-6 and I think 7 is only available through Jive Bug or an approved outlet I got so carried away with my little ditty I forgot to mention that sorry Simon:hug: :blush:

Actually we only sell any of our products through our event partners. cos we twully luv them to little wittle pieces:kiss:

(feeling a tad strange tonight!) Mac

Jon L

22nd-December-2003, 09:09 PM

Time to bring this thread up into the foreground again.

My Camber 2003 DVD dropped on the doormat on Saturday. I have watched several sections of this video, and make the following points

Good Points:
1) The Speed of delivery was excellent 5 weeks after the events

2) The picture quality was good

3) The sections were easy to navigate through, and you can skip through the credits/disclaimer (so annoying with commercial DVD's)

Areas of Improvement

The sound. There is distortion with bass from the mics. As I have said before, I wonder whether using a clip on the shirt mic is better for recording than an overhead one which is really close the mouth

be interested on comments from anyone else.

DavidB

22nd-December-2003, 09:24 PM

Originally posted by Jon L
As I have said before, I wonder whether using a clip on the shirt mic is better for recording than an overhead one which is really close the mouth The clip-on mics may pick up a lot of noise from the movement of the clothes. Most people are fairly still when they use them. And I'm not sure how well they work when the person's head is facing in a different direction to the body - such as when demonstrating a move side-on, but talking to the camera.

Mac

23rd-December-2003, 01:01 AM

Just my two penneth worth!
Its good that the delivery speed is so short we re all working on that one Im down to six weeks now so long as we get back the EDLs on time then this is becoming more the norm.

As far as micing up is concerned, The standard seems to be headphone mic and radio set up. They are so unobtrusive that they can hardly be seen sometimes. You can even get skin colour match ones! however what you will get is heavy breathing:really: !

This can be eliminated to some degree in post by applying a low pass filter set above the natural pitch of the commentator.

The easiest way out is a top slung condensor mic set to ambient positioned right in the middle above the demonstrators heads and strict instruction to the commentators that they are not to speak looking down! easier said than done though and you have to be aware of tungstan hum from the lights if your mic is closer than normal to them again this needs to be filtered out in post.

Bass can easily be filtered out in post but this is another production processs and contributes to dwell time!

In practice its all easier said than done!

TTFN Mac

:cheers:

Martin

24th-December-2003, 04:04 PM

Originally posted by amir_giles
See the most recent Australian Champs video for very good result. You could see all the competitors in one shot. There were no cuts, pans, close ups etc, and you can decide who to watch uninterrupeted.

Just watched the Australian champs video again Amir, and yes they did a great job.
Having spent years crusading that videos are a record for the dancers (and audience). Lets see everyone and no added rubbish. This one was great.

No commentary simply the next section or dancers with sub-titles telling you what or who. + a slip of paper telling you the timings for each section.

Originally posted by Mary
I would like to re-inforce Amir's comments about framing. I was taught a long time ago, whilst filming a ballet, never chop off the dancer's feet, allow more headroom for the arms and hands, and give the dancers space to move into.

Why do I buy a competition video? I think most people (but I could be wrong) buy the video for analysis. To see themselves perform, how they perform next to other competitors, and how the other competitors perform, or maybe just to see how your mates performed.
M

Framing was the best I have seen so far, there was one main camera and 3 backups, almost all footage (if not all, came from the main camera set up half way up the auditorium. Full stage for multi competitors, panning for showcases and team events (whilst keeping the WHOLE team in view).

Was it hard, well the cameraman was an experienced dancer and followed Mary’s advice above. The cameraman coped well with David and Lily’s showcase which moved from one end of the stage to the next, keeping them in the bulk of the frame and yet predicting the movements.

Was there complex editing/ streams etc. No, was there super-expensive pro cameras, No. The music did fade somewhat when people where cheering loudly and clapping enthusiastically to D&L’s performance BUT the atmosphere was captured and a fantastic record of their performance was recorded – all in time.

It was not always like that, from constant nagging and whining from me and some other performers, they finally relented to the “keep it simple” tactic.
It helped in 2001, when we were competing in teams event and I wanted a good record of us. The cameraman insisted on overhead ceiling cameras and the walking in front of the stage, picking out dancers approach, I managed to persuade the “co-cameraman” to simply set up a camera centre front and get a whole frame as the teams were meant to be viewed as a whole, also to “whole frame” the sections and “pan” the showcases. This he did with a simple camcorder on a tripod.

The result, well a video came out with both cuts “a bit of who’s better than who in the cameraman world” – The cut I proudly show people of our winning team and of the comp as a whole, well the “full frontal” as apposed to the “look someone’s face, someone dancing, where are the others?” approach.

Obviously this is my personal view, I am not commenting on the quality of the UK videos in general, only putting forward what I like in a show video. Hope it helps.

(By the way Steve Strong, I loved the job you did at Camber May 2003, the 2 lessons you captured of me teaching were edited extremely well and the instructions you gave me whilst demoing for the camera [including the “avoid heavy breathing thing”] were helpful. The team cabaret I was involved in was also filmed well)

Martin Elliott
Australia

JamesGeary

25th-December-2003, 01:00 PM

After years of watching out of sync videos where you couldn't work out what the dancers were doing, things seem to be getting better. The best one's I've seen in order have been

1) Rebel Yell 2002 & 2003
2) Britroc 2003
3) Jivemasters 2003

Happily all of which have been this year.

All of which had subtitles, music in sync with the video, and plenty of wide angle shots so you could see either all the couples or at the least a complete picture of one couple. Britroc in particular seemed to easily handle lots of dancers spreadout over a large floor, although I would have liked to have seen more wide angle shots so I could have picked who I wanted to look at. I'm more interested in the dancing than someone's costume or make-up. Still very good though.

So whatever's happening, technically things look to be on an upswing. :)

If for some rare reason you need to be not showing everyone, such as a costume falling off, then paste in some randomly taken shots of the crowd for a few seconds, and that bit never needs to be in sync.

DavidB

25th-December-2003, 01:43 PM

I think that Blackpool has a particular problem in that the floor is so large. A single wideangle shot to cover everyone might not be possible - you might still have to have 2 cameras - each one covering half the floor.

And how easy would it be to do some slow motion replays of a couple of moves after each round? i.e. have the wideangle shot(s) for the main video, but have an additional camera trying to pick up some highlights from individual couples.

RobC

26th-December-2003, 12:41 PM

Originally posted by JamesGeary
The best one's I've seen in order have been

1) Rebel Yell 2002 & 2003
2) Britroc 2003
3) Jivemasters 2003

You obviously haven't seen the MJC7 video/DVD yet then :wink:

Happy Christmas everyone. :cheers: :cheers:

Rob

JamesGeary

26th-December-2003, 01:09 PM

Originally posted by RobC
You obviously haven't seen the MJC7 video/DVD yet then :wink:

No I haven't seen it. This was just a good selection from the videos I have seen. Maybe someone could put up a poll of videos so we could see overall what videos people have liked.

RogerR

26th-December-2003, 02:01 PM

Those that were on the William and May shoot for C4 will note that the times were 8am to 7.30 pm with shot list already worked out and ten production assistants all talking into their cuffs one camera on a stand two ops and one non a steady-cam - two ops. The sound had a recordist and about ten staff
Each shot was rehearsed then shotseveral times
say 70 people for 12 hours at £25 per hour
All this for an estimated SIX MINUTES of final product in the can.

If you want a full pro vid, then there must be a rehearsal so that cameras can find the best angles and there will be so many people working that the cost to the rushes will be un-recoverably high and the competition atmosphere will be lost

Will

26th-December-2003, 04:59 PM

I've not seen Rebel Yell yet, but Ceroc 2003, Britroc 2003, and JiveMasters 2003 were all much better than previous dance videos that I've seen.

Martin

26th-December-2003, 05:05 PM

Originally posted by RogerR
Those that were on the William and May shoot for C4 will note that the times were 8am to 7.30 pm with shot list already worked out and ten production assistants all talking into their cuffs one camera on a stand two ops and one non a steady-cam - two ops. The sound had a recordist and about ten staff
Each shot was rehearsed then shotseveral times
say 70 people for 12 hours at £25 per hour
All this for an estimated SIX MINUTES of final product in the can.

If you want a full pro vid, then there must be a rehearsal so that cameras can find the best angles and there will be so many people working that the cost to the rushes will be un-recoverably high and the competition atmosphere will be lost

great stuff... I still say one camcorder, one advanced dancer, A full record of events... :cheers:

Been there done that.

All power to the technophobes.

For me show me the dancing, cut the ...........

Mac

27th-December-2003, 02:05 AM

In response to David B's last post (someplease tell me how to add reference qoutes in bold as I still have not managed to work it out)

Technically slow mo is not difficult but If you start selecting clips for slow mo other footage would have to be sacrificed to make room for it. So it would inevitably upset some people who would be justifiably put out.

David is absolutely right about the blackpool shoot The floor is way too large as the event thins out. Where we are able to set up is also very restricted but definately needs to change.

What is needed is greater communication between the organisers and video operators prior to the event to get maxium efficient covarege if organisers want the video to become an integral part of the event as it seems they do.

Also It does seem as though wider angle shots is the way to go so all those that im covering next year will have wide shots in the main apart from showcases/Luckydips/Hot shots (call them what you will)

Team Cabs will be wide angle shots entirely (ulesss as in the Ceroc Hammersmith Palies venue there is not enough room.)

Thanks for all the feedback as ever! Mac:cheers:

inkjet

2nd-February-2004, 11:32 PM

i have only just joined this forum and interested in your comments.

i filmed and edited the britroc video and hope that all was in sync including the atmospheric sounds and hope that everyone is happy with the results

there were 3 camera angles, 4 sound fields (including a direct),

unfortunatly due to a computer problem there was a delay of a week in the despatch of the videos but hopefully not to noticable

i'm intersted in any feedback

Divissima

3rd-February-2004, 09:33 AM

Hi Inkjet - welcome to the Forum.

I am the proud owner of the Britroc video and reckon it's excellent. My only criticism (constructive, I hope) is that in some heats you don't get to see much of particular couples because of their position on the floor, relative to the cameras. Of course, where there were two tracks the couples changed positions and were then in most cases in shot for at least one of the tracks.

Would it have been possible/be possible for next time to have wider angle shots so that all couples are in shot (so the viewer can pick which couples to watch)?

La Diva :waycool:

Sheepman

3rd-February-2004, 12:24 PM

Hi inkjet,
I think technically the Britroc video was the best dance competition video I've seen. But of course I have some criticisms . . .

I would agree to some extent with Ms Diva's comment, but realise that wide angle shots are never used for this type of thing, as the subjects will be too small, you just have to accept that you will only catch a few seconds of any particular couples dancing, and it may not be their best few seconds. (This is why I think organisers should allow videoing, so that you can study your own performance better, maybe on payment of a "license" fee, or even on payment for the organisers video, then no one loses out.)

My other criticism is some of the unnecessary footage that is included, like the stuff at the beginning of the video, I know it sets the scene, but it goes on far too long, also the segue shot between rounds, we get to see this far too often, was it really necessary? Why not just a short fade out and fade in?

It was an excellent idea to have all the prizewinners listed at the end, other producers should do this too.

Greg

TheTramp

3rd-February-2004, 12:36 PM

Originally posted by Sheepman
but realise that wide angle shots are never used for this type of thing, as the subjects will be too small I still disagree with this.

The video I have of Nicky's competition in Sydney in June this year is great. And they show the entire stage for almost the entire track. A couple of other people have been looking at it with me recently, and both of them agreed that it works well, and is a great video. And it's very nice being able to see every couple for the entire heat.

It's probably not as wide as the floor at Blackpool, but there were 6 couples on the floor during each round, with enough room for them to do aeriels (you know what the Aussies are like), so it can't be that much smaller - and you could just restrict the dancing area at Blackpool. Or, you could solve it, by having two cameras, one on each half of the floor, and either showing them both, one after the other (okie, so it makes the video twice as long), or at least, showing one half for 30 seconds, then the second half for another 30 seconds etc. That way, at the minimum, you'd get to watch everyone for half a track. Which would be a lot better than the few seconds you get of some people on the previous UK competition videos I've seen.

Steve

PS. I'm quite happy to let anyone who can get here see the video, and I'm sure that they'd agree...

Divissima

3rd-February-2004, 02:05 PM

I tend to agree with Steve ( :really: ) on this. The Australian videos allow you to see all the dancers together, and this is a good thing. I haven't seen the video from Nicky Haslam's comp, but I have the video of Mark Harding's comp in September. Although the image quality isn't as good as the previous year, you can see all the competitors at the same time - something I really like.

Obviously, you don't get the same 'close-up' effect, but I personally don't much like the close-up shots anyway. Very often this means you can't see the whole couple (so feet or arms are often out of shot) and so can't get the full effect of what they are doing. And you occasionally get a hint of another couple (partially or wholly out of shot) doing something really interesting - which you can't see. Maybe it's more atmospheric, but IMHO, I'd trade off atmosphere against a wider shot. I appreciate that not everyone would agree with this.

In response to Sheepy's other point (about competitors being able to video their own performances), I think some comps (in Australia, and perhaps elsewhere) have had competitor videos to buy along with a spectator (or 'highlights') video. In essence if you entered, say, intermediate, you would buy the intermediate competitor vid which would have all the warm-up tracks, rounds, etc of that particular category in wide shot, with minimal editing. Of course, some comps (including Britroc) over here have all the rounds on the spectator/official video anyway, but it could be a possible alternative for the comps that don't. I do appreciate that the problem would be keeping production costs down. Just an idea, though.