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Mikey
15th-October-2003, 04:07 PM
I have danced and taught for 11 years now and seen and met many many teachers from all over this country..

I truley now believe that it's no longer enough to be a good teacher.. you have to be an entertainer as well !!!

What do you think ?:waycool:

Gus
15th-October-2003, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by Mikey
I truley now believe that it's no longer enough to be a good teacher.. you have to be an entertainer as well !!!


Basic Ceroc Teacher training (by CTA) trains all Ceroc teachers to be an entertainer first, teacher second. The structured approach allow Ceroc teachers to convey all the information that the dancers needin a concise way, allowing them to concentrate on watching the class and making the whole thing entertaining. I think that the CTA training does a good job of this and its probably what gives Ceroc the compettive edge against most other organisations.

Please note, that this doesn't neccsarily mean Ceroc teachers are the best ... just the best trained:nice:

Pammy
15th-October-2003, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by Mikey
you have to be an entertainer as well !!! What do you think ?:waycool:

Yep, I'd agree with that. BillCo is one of the funniest teachers I know and you just *gel* with him because of his personality. :nice:

Mikey
15th-October-2003, 04:46 PM
Well Gus, i can only say the CTA training must have changed somewhat in 10 years, because thats certainly not what they taught me, thats why i left Ceroc, so i could teach and entertain without been told of !!! They did teach me well i must say, but certainly not to entertain... I have seen a few Ceroc teachers who i have thoroughly enjoyed been taught by and found them to be entertainers as well as a good teacher, but not many to be honest.. but on the upside.. at least they are trained anyway.. so many so called teachers have never had a days training in thier life.. i even had one tell me i was doing a catapult incorrectly one day, cheeky so snd so.. mind you, i won't repeat my words, but he went away rather sheepish.. LOL

Lounge Lizard
15th-October-2003, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by Mikey
Well Gus, i can only say the CTA training must have changed somewhat in 10 years, because thats certainly not what they taught me, thats why i left Ceroc, so i could teach and entertain without been told of !!! They did teach me well i must say, but certainly not to entertain... I have seen a few Ceroc teachers who i have thoroughly enjoyed been taught by and found them to be entertainers as well as a good teacher, but not many to be honest.. but on the upside.. at least they are trained anyway.. so many so called teachers have never had a days training in thier life.. i even had one tell me i was doing a catapult incorrectly one day, cheeky so snd so.. mind you, i won't repeat my words, but he went away rather sheepish.. LOL
But Mikey being sheepish on this forum means you are a smooth dancer (and dresser in comps) :waycool:, well liked and have a pretty fine taste in music:wink:

Pammy
15th-October-2003, 05:05 PM
Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
But Mikey being sheepish on this forum means you are a smooth dancer (and dresser in comps) :waycool:, well liked and have a pretty fine taste in music:wink:

Who's that then? Have we got a new member? :wink: :devil:

Mikey
15th-October-2003, 05:07 PM
Hell, you learn something new everyday !!! ok ok.. he left with his tail between his legs then..lol hopefully this will not mean your well hung on the forum ...:o

ChrisA
15th-October-2003, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by Mikey
I truly now believe that it's no longer enough to be a good teacher.. you have to be an entertainer as well !!!

There's a balance to be struck. I've been in very dreary classes with no entertainment factor, during which I've switched off completely. I've also been to classes where the teacher is so bloody entertaining that no actual teaching takes place. :D

I reckon the entertainment factor is more important for beginners, since the laughter breaks the ice, and helps them relax while they're at the point where for lots of reasons it's most difficult.

Later though, it's the inspirational qualities of the teacher, their passion for the subject, and their ability to convey information in the right ways that become far more important to the students' actual learning.

The very best teachers are the ones that know how to find the right balance.

Chris

Mikey
15th-October-2003, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
There's a balance to be struck. I've been in very dreary classes with no entertainment factor, during which I've switched off completely. I've also been to classes where the teacher is so bloody entertaining that no actual teaching takes place. :D

I reckon the entertainment factor is more important for beginners, since the laughter breaks the ice, and helps them relax while they're at the point where for lots of reasons it's most difficult.

Later though, it's the inspirational qualities of the teacher, their passion for the subject, and their ability to convey information in the right ways that become far more important to the students' actual learning.

The very best teachers are the ones that know how to find the right balance.

Chris


Well put Chris,

i cannot disagree with that at all...

Gus
15th-October-2003, 06:53 PM
Originally posted by Mikey
Well Gus, i can only say the CTA training must have changed somewhat in 10 years, because thats certainly not what they taught me, thats why i left Ceroc, so i could teach and entertain without been told of !!!

I think the teacher training has trained a fair bit. I did my training about 4 years ago and the emphasis was very much akin to being a cheerleader:what: Being an accountant (with the associated personality bypass) and naturaly quiet person this approach to teaching was somewhat of a challenge!

The comments about achieveing a balance are well made. I still have a battle in trying not to teach people during a class, i.e. try to correct the many mistakes you see from stage. Unless I can see some muppet being openly homicidal, the teaching approach simply does not give you enough time to get across the more subtle points to a class of 100 or so very differning standards and styles .... that is why I vastly prefer teaching workshops to classes.

Anyway ... on any given night I would think that the majority of dancers want to pick up 90% of the moves and have a good laugh .... sounds a good night out to me:grin:

Lorna
15th-October-2003, 11:00 PM
Hi,

(extra special hi to Gus who I'm really looking forward to seeing at the weekend).

Unfortunately, and for the first time, I disagree with you Gus and I did my training round about the same time as you.

I thought that the emphasis was very much on the dancing and the teaching of the moves. Yes, a lot of time was dedicated to the 'performance of those dreaded keypoints', but IMHO delivering a good key point is a very important element of the teach.

Ceroc teachers are the best, WE ROCK

:na: :na: :na: :na: :na:..........................:rofl: :rofl:

Can't wait to see you again and have a dance or 5,

lotsa love Lorna x-x

TheTramp
15th-October-2003, 11:16 PM
Originally posted by Lorna
Hi,

(extra special hi to Gus who I'm really looking forward to seeing at the weekend).

Ceroc teachers are the best, WE ROCK Unfortunately, Gus isn't coming this weekend now :tears:

And yes, there are some very good Ceroc teachers...... :na:

(And of course, you're one of them Lorna)

Steve

bigdjiver
16th-October-2003, 12:27 AM
A good thread. I was told that one of the earliest adverts for teachers was placed in the Stage magazine, and I think they got that exactly right. As has been said, for the beginners class, the teacher must be an entertainer first and foremost. I agree that for beginners it takes their mind of themselves if they laugh. Ceroc is about having fun. It also keeps the old hands coming to the beginners classes.

Even if the teacher could not teach the old hands would teach the beginners anyway, wouldn't we?

The intermediate class is something else. There is very little space there for diversions. It needs good clear efficient teaching.

When I was starting I compared the Ceroc classes to the Le Jive ones. Hannah at Bromley had a clear lead in humour and presentation. The Le Jive teacher used to correct mistakes that he saw in the class. Even if he did not put the undesired spotlight on your error, there was always the fear that he might next time. Doubtless he taught them to dance well, those that came back.

Mikey
16th-October-2003, 01:47 AM
Originally posted by TheTramp
Unfortunately, Gus isn't coming this weekend now :tears:

And yes, there are some very good Ceroc teachers...... :na:

(And of course, you're one of them Lorna)

Steve

and of course your one of them Lorna ?[B] Steve, is her ass that cute that you kiss it so sweetly ?:wink:

Bill
16th-October-2003, 09:22 AM
Originally posted by Mikey
and of course your one of them Lorna ?[B] Steve, is her ass that cute that you kiss it so sweetly ?:wink:



As her regular demo I'm not sure how sweet her ass is - I'm too much of a gentleman to look closely..........:blush: .......but I'll try and find out - I'll have a good look next time I'm on stage with her and let you know :D

ps we're very lucky to have two such very good - and entertaining teachers up in Aberdeen and perhaps no surprise that Lorna took to it so well being a teacher as well.

In fact thinkinbg of all the Scottish teachers I'd have to say we have a very good 'bunch' - all with their own little ways but all equally good at teaching and at entertaining. No coincidence that we have aso many good dancers up here now :D :wink:

Lorna
16th-October-2003, 01:13 PM
Hey,

keep kissing boys, the ass is liking it!! :wink: :wink:

Lotsa love Lorna x-x

TheTramp
16th-October-2003, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by Lorna
Hey,

keep kissing boys, the ass is liking it!! :wink: :wink:

Lotsa love Lorna x-x Ah. I'll have to teach you the ass-kissing routine then eh :wink:

Steve

Sheepman
16th-October-2003, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by Pammy
Who's that then? Have we got a new member? :wink: :devil: Well Peter, I'm blushing, but Pammy knows how to bring a wee lamb down! :sad:

I've been taught by countless teachers in my years, and agree that the entertainment factor makes a big difference. (And is one of the reasons I could never see myself doing it.) The least entertaining teacher I ever had was the man who founded Ceroc himself, it didn't take me long to avoid his lessons.
I would say a lot of this is down to the natural personality of the relevant teacher, but enthusiasm and a touch of irony are essential. The most entertaining class I've ever done was just a few weeks ago, at Beach Boogie, where Nigel and Nina did a blues class. Nina had been relaxing with a bottle of wine before the 11:30 pm lesson, so Nigel was ribbing her for being sozzled. I can't say if she was, or if she was putting it on. (Her dancing was perfect as ever), but I, and many others, were in absolute stitches over the banter (and heckling). Now maybe this went too far for the normal lesson, but I'm sure I can still recall the whole routine, over 6 weeks later. I couldn't believe it when I heard someone complaining that they weren't taking it seriously enough! OK it may have overrun a little, but we had another 6 hours of dancing to go.

Let the beginners have a laugh, and they'll relax, learn more, and be more likely to return.

And as for picking on anyone in the class, this has to be done in the right way, I think it's fine if done with humour and done to a regular. (Nigel ALWAYS picks on Nina if she is in the class, rather than teaching it, she can probably handle it!)

Greg

Pammy
16th-October-2003, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by Sheepman
Pammy knows how to bring a wee lamb down!

With thighs my size, I could take down an elephant :tears:

Nah, you know I love you really Sheepy; I'd never spend hours designing tops for you if I didn't *kiss*


I couldn't believe it when I heard someone complaining that they weren't taking it seriously enough!

I can't believe that either. Nigel and Nina are both fab and I can't imagine anyone having grounds to complain about them. Even if Nina was too drunk to stand, she could still dance better than anyone else in the room, she's lovely.:nice:

I love the banter that goes on between those two, it just lightens the whole atmosphere and shows that they're normal people with a sense of humour.:grin:


And as for picking on anyone in the class, this has to be done in the right way, I think it's fine if done with humour and done to a regular.[/B]

Yes, good point, so stop picking on me in class, right!:wink:

Px

Bill
16th-October-2003, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by Lorna
Hey,

keep kissing boys, the ass is liking it!! :wink: :wink:

Lotsa love Lorna x-x


The things I have to do to get a holiday in Las Palmas :D :sick: ah well.....................does it have to be on stage :na: :blush:

Mikey
16th-October-2003, 03:36 PM
Originally posted by Bill
The things I have to do to get a holiday in Las Palmas :D :sick: ah well.....................does it have to be on stage :na: :blush:

is it my imagination or have we become fixated on Lorna's ass ?

Anyway, i gather Lorna is an entertaining teacher too .. good to hear....

Bill
16th-October-2003, 04:36 PM
Originally posted by Mikey
Anyway, i gather Lorna is an entertaining teacher too .. good to hear....


She's a great dancer and a very good teacher and I've certainly learned a great deal from her. :grin:

Jon L
16th-October-2003, 05:36 PM
Mikey nice to have you along sir, having seen a video of your Bognor class I can certainly say you teach cheeky jive!

As for teachers - It's great if they have a sense of humour, all the good teachers do.

If you become well known by teachers it's a great laugh cos if you get a move wrong in their classes and they see it - you are in real trouble.:D

Paul F
16th-October-2003, 08:22 PM
Thought i would post to give my impression (see, entertaining already!) of the Ceroc Teachers Association.

Having qualified in the last month I can give , what i hope is, a pretty accurate picture.

First and foremost the training i received was intense, relentless and at some points emotionally stressful. In that, it was perfect.
I say that because i feel it has to be. They tore strips of everyone on that course, not to be cruel (i dont think :grin: ) but because when a teacher comes out of their training having worked on the points raised, noone then has the right to criticise.

Mikey mentioned something about someone pointing out the inaccuracies in his catapult!! If you have been ceroc trained there is NOTHING wrong with your catapult !! I realise that people do deviate quite considerably from any form of teaching when they enter the real world eg, driving test but what ceroc gives you is the correct mindset. The confidence to go out there and teach as well as a technical aresnal.
I have to say, the training course was one of the hardest things i have ever done but i wouldnt change it for the world.

This is why i think ceroc trained teachers are the best teachers.

As for the teacher/entertainer aspect. I guess I can only comment on this from the point of view of NEW teachers. This is because, as i said previously, people adapt and change without the intervention of HQ. From that viewpoint all the people on my training course were people who were, not only outgoing with a rather extrovert personality but, more importantly, they were people with a passion for ceroc.
I know passion is a strong word but, in my situation, that is exactly what it is. I love ceroc. The people on my course loved ceroc.
It seems like the auditions that each candidate must go through work to find these people.
As for the question of entertainment, ceroc are, of course, very keen that their teachers are entertaining but not to the detrement of technical and communicable responsibilities. A person can be entertaining and concisely informative but its not easy, hence the training.
I believe if a person truly has a passion for what they are doing it will show through. Unquestionably.

There is a balance to be met. At the end of the day i went to ceroc for the first time to learn to dance. If they were not teaching me to dance i wouldnt have gone back.

Gus
16th-October-2003, 08:59 PM
Originally posted by Paul F
........
This is why i think ceroc trained teachers are the best teachers.


Ahhh ... but if you've never been trained by LeRoc, MoJive, JiveBug, Blitz etc ... how can you say that CTA is the best training....:wink:

Oh ... and at least half of the best Modern Jive teachers on the circuit aren't actualy CTA trained :waycool:

DavidB
16th-October-2003, 09:04 PM
Originally posted by Paul F
If you have been ceroc trained there is NOTHING wrong with your catapult
[snip]
as well as a technical aresnal.
[snip]
teachers are entertaining but not to the detrement of technical and communicable responsibilities. So it seems that Ceroc place some emphasis on teaching technique to their teachers. Do they have any guidelines on when and how (or indeed if) their teachers should teach this technique in their classes?

David

ChrisA
16th-October-2003, 10:29 PM
Originally posted by Paul F
This is why i think ceroc trained teachers are the best teachers.

Interesting thread this. This post is going to be a bit long - sorry for that, please bear with me...

If I had gone only to Ceroc, I would have given up jive completely by now.

About 18 months ago I had been a Ceroc taxi dancer for about two and a half years at various venues, and was still enjoying teaching the beginners - and from the feedback I'd received from beginners and teachers alike was doing Ok.

But at the same time I was totally sick of the fact that I was learning new moves every week, but not learning to dance.

The gulf between where I was at, and where the really good dancers - who could dance musically as well as do complicated moves - were at, seemed unbridgeable to me, and there was nothing in the Ceroc teaching style that spoke to me about how I could find a way across the chasm. I was literally on the point of giving it all up.

To my huge relief, I discovered the Hipsters crowd. Nigel and Nina, (now Nigel and Jules on a Tuesday), and slightly more recently, Amir and Kate et al. In freestyle, many good dancers, challenging and sometimes even intolerant dancers. It was a dance with Nina that convinced me that I wasn't completely crap after all, and it was some of Amir's classes that started me on the road to musicality.

I started again to learn how to dance, and it seems to me that I've been improving since then. I enjoy dancing a million times more, and when I learn new moves, I dance them selectively in the context of my still very limited but growing understanding of what it is to dance musically and with connection.

I am still more than happy to taxi for my local Ceroc venue - but the difference now is that I can give far more than I could before, in terms of enthusiasm, and also ability - both dancing and teaching. I also learn far more from the classes - beginner as well as intermediate - than I ever did before.

Ceroc is fine, and I'll always be grateful as it was my re-entry into the world of dance after many years in a non-dancing wilderness. But it would be nice to see it mature beyond the totally stylised beginner/intermediate format, and allow space for some real dance teaching as well.

Chris

Paul F
16th-October-2003, 10:39 PM
Originally posted by Paul F

This is why i think ceroc trained teachers are the best teachers.


I must qualify this statement it seems. I am not saying they are the best from a training point of view as i have no way of knowing how good the other training courses are.
By this statement , i meant that , from the huge number of venues i have been to while living down south, the ceroc teachers/venues conveyed a more impressive sense of professionalism.

I said it must be down to the training.

Paul F
16th-October-2003, 11:15 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA


Ceroc is fine, and I'll always be grateful as it was my re-entry into the world of dance after many years in a non-dancing wilderness. But it would be nice to see it mature beyond the totally stylised beginner/intermediate format, and allow space for some real dance teaching as well.

Chris

This is one of the big criticisms about ceroc (and i guess lots of other MJ venues that follow the same principles). I think they do target the beginner/inter market but, nevertheless are good at doing so.
I was the same as you Chris. I got a bit downhearted with the regime but i think that is the case with a lot of people. I know quite a few at Hipsters felt the same which is why they go to Nigels et al lessons, i did the same.
I dont know if there is an answer to it. Do u make the lessons that much more technical, advanced, music orientated.....:confused: or whatever other term springs to mind. If so, can we still attract the beginners. Its a tricky one.

I did go to quite a few classes when i lived down there from various organisations with ex ceroc teachers and others and they did try that, and it worked. I really enjoyed it.... BUT..... if they had carried on on a regular basis would they have suffered on numbers. :confused:

There must be a compromise

Mikey
17th-October-2003, 02:16 AM
OK, well, after 11 years of dancing and more than 10 of those teaching, i will tell what i have heard many say and what i believe to be the truth from my own experience....
If any individual goes to the same venue time and time again, they will rarely progress in dance.. to do so they need to experience different teachers and different people in general dancing, by doing this, they progress.. I went to a lot of classes and a lot of different places to learn and learn i did.. because i realised you can almost tell where people have generally learnt and with what teacher on occasions if you have good knowledge of many around the country...

I firmly say that in any class you learn basic technique, be it beginners or intermediate, but to truly learn you have to dance and learn how each move varies from place to place and person to person..

Regards other teaching courses apart from CTA, some i have knowledge of and some are very good, others are a waste of time.. Paul was right in what he said about his first week on the Ceroc course, I was a big grown up boy 10 years ago and it had me on the brink of tears along with others on the course from the intensity alone.. and yes i too was torn to bits over my dancing, but it had a purpose, which i could see at the end.. I would be inclined to say that the CTA is probably the most professional of all the courses i am aware of and at the end of the day, lets be frank.. any other teachers course will in some way have been derived from CTA in the first place..

Anyway, well done Paul on your progression and i sincerely hope this thread opens your mind about how you teach.. find that balance and become one of those teachers people talk about, in the positive i might add...

The teachers everyone loves are those that find the balance, teach a good class and entertain !!!

There must be a compromise [/B][/QUOTE] :waycool:

Gadget
17th-October-2003, 09:19 AM
Originally posted by Mikey
The teachers everyone loves are those that find the balance, teach a good class and entertain !!!
The balance is making the subject entertaining, and not just being entertaining.
{IMHO}

Daisy
17th-October-2003, 09:50 AM
This all explains why only 'ceroc' style dancers seem to fair better at the Ceroc Champs......all their judges are Ceroc teachers and they have been trained to look for technical elements rather than musicality. This is mainly evident in the Interm. & Adv. (2003) rather than the Open, where more senior Ceroc teachers were judging. It does amaze myself and others when you see finalists dancing through all the obvious breaks & highlights in a piece of music......how did they get that far?

TheTramp
17th-October-2003, 09:55 AM
Originally posted by Daisy
It does amaze myself and others when you see finalists dancing through all the obvious breaks & highlights in a piece of music......how did they get that far? {controvosy on}

They are probably young and good looking.

{controvosy off}

:D

Steve

Daisy
17th-October-2003, 10:05 AM
Your not wrong there mate......no room for any 'crusties' in a Ceroc final!!...no matter how well you can dance!

I think you know where I'm coming from!:D

Mikey
17th-October-2003, 10:15 AM
Originally posted by Gadget
The balance is making the subject entertaining, and not just being entertaining.
{IMHO}


:( your splitting hairs now gadget.. not a virgo are you ?:D

Mikey
17th-October-2003, 10:19 AM
Originally posted by Daisy
Your not wrong there mate......no room for any 'crusties' in a Ceroc final!!...no matter how well you can dance!

I think you know where I'm coming from!:D [B]



Now i think Daisy this is a whole new thread of the hush word "POLITICS".. !!!:mad: or was the spelling "BOLLOCTICS" :wink: tough one that... The tramp will tell us which i'm sure, been the non plused tart, sorry, tramp, no, i was right the first time tart.. bless him... LOL:wink:

Mikey
17th-October-2003, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by Jon L
Mikey nice to have you along sir, having seen a video of your Bognor class I can certainly say you teach cheeky jive!

As for teachers - It's great if they have a sense of humour, all the good teachers do.

If you become well known by teachers it's a great laugh cos if you get a move wrong in their classes and they see it - you are in real trouble.:D


Why thankyou for the welcome Mr Little, i shall of course now keep an eye out for your "fumbles" in my Sinfull classes :waycool:

Paul F
17th-October-2003, 11:27 AM
Ah i remeber fondly Mikeys cheeky Jive class at Bognor.

I went into that class a wee pup, blind to the intimacies of human interaction. I came out a man :grin: :grin: :sorry

It certainly was cheeky, and bloody good fun with it.

Gadget
17th-October-2003, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by Mikey
:( your splitting hairs now gadget.. not a virgo are you ?:D
Not really; be entertaining and the pupils come out smiling and remembering that it was an entertaining class, but don't remember much of what was actually being taught.
Make the subject entertaining and they remember more of it: I'm sure that there is some psychobable about positive reinforcement and memory triggers.

{PS Water barer; I ain't no virgin :devil:}

Sonic
18th-October-2003, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by Mikey
I truley now believe that it's no longer enough to be a good teacher.. you have to be an entertainer as well !!!

I don't think teachers necessarily need to be good entertainers. I don't go to many classes these days, but the last 2 I attended were Nigel's at Hipsters and Viktor's at Bisley. I don't think either were particularly entertaining, but they were both good teachers! An example of who I think is an entertaining teacher is Mike Ellard.

My thoughts on the CTTC (as someone who's about to do it) is that it does primarily teach you to teach, but there is a heavy emphasis on presentation (cheerleading?) skills, the reasoning being that nobody will go to your classes if you're boring. So I think a good teacher needs good presentation skills and enthusiasm, but there's a distinction between that and being entertaining.

When the government launched it's recent(ish) teacher recruitment campaign, it released a series of adverts where celebrities would eulogise about teachers who had had an impact on their lives. So I wonder what it takes to be a great teacher? I think it's the ability to inspire, whether that's through wisdom, knowledge, insight, passion or ability. Does being entertaining even come into it? Mr Miyagi wasn't entertaining (OK, maybe he was in an eccentric sort of way), but "wax on/wax off" was pure inspiration!

ChrisA
18th-October-2003, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by Sonic
I don't think teachers necessarily need to be good entertainers. I don't go to many classes these days, but the last 2 I attended were Nigel's at Hipsters and Viktor's at Bisley. I don't think either were particularly entertaining, but they were both good teachers! An example of who I think is an entertaining teacher is Mike Ellard.

Entertainment doesn't have to be stand-up comedy though. Personally I think Nigel and Viktor are both very entertaining. But it's subtle, and applied sparingly, which IMHO is one of the marks of getting the balance right.

Chris

bigdjiver
19th-October-2003, 01:35 AM
We have a skewed selection of opinions here. We are not hearing from all of those beginners that did not come back because they could not overcome their nerves, or because they simply did not enjoy themselves.

Every Ceroc teacher is capable of teaching the mechanics of 4 moves to a beginners class. I have never seen one not up to that task. I have seen too many beginners too racked with nerves to learn much about dance. Nothing relaxes people and makes them feel part of a gathering than laughing together. For beginners, and for the franchisee, the most important first lesson the beginner must learn is that this is fun, and that they will enjoy themselves.

There are still working mens clubs up and down the country where people go to have a bit of a chat, enjoy a drink, laugh at a comedian, see what others are up to, and perhaps even have an little dance. They are happy to pay money for that, and to come back.

Even if the first timer enjoys themselves on that level, enough to come back, the first evening has been a success from their point of view, and of the franchisee. They cannot help but to have absorbed most of the ritual, and some elements of the dance. The foundation stone is in place. Of course teaching technique must be there, the prospect of being able to learn must be evident.

If they have learned four moves, and not enjoyed themselves, they probably will not return.

The experienced dancers will not attend the beginner classes to learn moves. They may enjoy a little chat with old friends, the opportunity to start to make new ones, and the opportunity to warm up. A humerous lesson will motivate them all the more.

For intermediate, and above, lessons, the teaching is paramount. As always, humour helps.

Gus
19th-October-2003, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by bigdjiver

For intermediate, and above, lessons, the teaching is paramount. As always, humour helps.

Just a thought ... if teaching is paramount for intermediates ... how come there are so many BAD teachers out there who still seem to pull in dancers?

ChrisA
19th-October-2003, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by bigdjiver
If they have learned four moves, and not enjoyed themselves, they probably will not return.

If they've learned them well enough to dance them, and not enjoyed themselves, I would guess that they probably aren't all that interested in learning to dance. They may have had a fun time anyway, and may or may not come back. But most people whose main reason for going out is to have
a bit of a chat, enjoy a drink, laugh at a comedian, see what others are up to, and perhaps even have a little dance.
... will probably go down to a pub which has a bit of live entertainment with some mates.

New beginners start dancing mostly, it seems to me, because they come with someone who's told them how much fun dancing is, or they've seen others dancing and want to do that. Hipsters last Wednesday saw lots of new people who'd seen the previous weekend's busking. They came, presumably not because they were expecting it to be a bit of a laugh (although it was), but because they saw people enjoying dancing and thought they'd like to be able to do that too.

When I started, I didn't enjoy a lot of it for quite a while. I was crap - and I didn't keep putting myself through the pain of lumbering incompetently around the floor because the teacher made me laugh. What kept me enjoying it enough to keep coming back was that I saw enough glimmers of improvement in my dancing to feel that one day I would be Ok.

These days, as a taxi, both on, and off duty, I dance a lot with beginners. The overwhelming impression I get, mostly from the girls, is of a lack of confidence in their ability to get the hang of it. Many of them do not stay for the freestyle because of this. An approach I quite often take, if they seem interested (and the vast majority are) and I can get to them before they go, is to teach the very basics of following - ie, establishing resistance in the arms.

It's incredibly easy to teach - usually it takes about a minute - and it makes a huge difference to the feel of the dance. What starts with "jelly arms" and confusion as to which way to go, becomes, in the space of a track or two, a look of amazement on their faces as they start to feel the connection, and a widening smile as they start actually enjoying it.

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against having a bit of a laugh during the class but IMHO it wouldn't take much teaching effort beyond the standard 4-move beginners routine to make a big difference - and feed through to enjoyment, fun, relaxation and all that good stuff that much quicker.

Chris

michael
19th-October-2003, 05:52 PM
Quote:But at the same time I was totally sick of the fact that I was learning new moves every week, but not learning to dance.

Great subject this with good points made by EXPERIENCED Teachers or dancers.

So how does the fairly new-intermediate (four months now!!!) feel about Ceroc taching????

The beginners section is great and so much also depends on the Taxi Dancers being able to promote the dancing and make you feel you are doing well etc.

The intermediates section from the quote above could be improved apon perhaps. The perhaps is mostly to do with what type of person you are and what you want out of ceroc??

My aim is to be a good dancer (in all respects) full stop. If you have the time and you are keen and determined then you will seek out what is required and the rest will be up to you! But I want to have fun doing so, which means comprimises?

I now know i can pick up a DVD or scan the internet for video footage and learn loads of moves. I can seek out all the moves in print form (over 300 printed and all pretty useless to me just now anyway) so what do i seek and what do those who wish to progress look for?? Here is a list of what i feel i would like to see in a intermediate class maybe once a month.

The correct handhold??? From observations there are plenty of acceptable handholds. There are even more in-correct handholds. I need to be able to identify immediately if the person i am about to dance with is holding her hand in an acceptable position. More importantly i need to know that my handhold is correct!!

I stumbled accross David B and Lillys workshop notes from the Big Perth Weekend :blush: :blush: forgot about them!!! They are so helpful yes but when you go to a dance class and observe the handholds????

The different handholds for different things?? like changing hands whilst turning the lady in consecutive spins etc. Different handholds and pressures (no mention of this yet at a class???)

David Bs mention of having the index (one on top if not called index?) finger alongside the females hand made great sense for guiding sideways (just an example he gave). No mention of that either in classes?) Leading and following? Imagine us guys being a female and trying to follow. I tried it once and that was once enough. I was getting into the habit of moving my hand left to right prior to changing sides how on earth was the poor female to follow, do a snake dance prior to the move!! These items are basic simple things that i didnt realise are so important. No one wants tests for sure but surely having an intermediate class and covering these subjects is better than simply going thjrough a new move every single week. It seems pointless. Surely the teacher SHOULD go round everyone and ensure that we all have an acceptable handhold. Next class could be to go round everyone and see that they LEAD and do it without too much force or too little and follow without leading etc. Food for thought....

Boomer
19th-October-2003, 06:26 PM
Just thought about the title of this thread, read Chris’s comments and done some thinking (mainly based on last night), and have decided that my take on the question is ‘what makes for the best learning environment/method’.

As a beginner (less so now maybe) the entertainment part of the tutor’s did play a part in my returning time and time again to bruise toes, it helped create a relaxed and less intimidating environment. As with Chris though, the main reason was the microsecond of success that kept me awake until 4am with excitement.

Doing intermediate classes, I’m less interested in being entertained (although it does help) and more interested in efficient instruction, the moves are too complicated imho for any over-the-top vaudeville routines.

The clincher for the best environment though, based on last-night (mainly), and digesting some of the comments on this thread is that the best environment is a combination of efficient/entertaining teachers (at the beginning), competent taxis and, perhaps most importantly of all, friendly people to take newbies (me included) in hand to the dance floor and help take their first, tentative steps. (Sorry for the long sentence).

One teacher, One demonstrator and two taxis can only do so much in teaching/helping people. Not suggesting this doesn’t happen anyway, just sharing my thoughts, all the best:nice:

ChrisA
19th-October-2003, 06:40 PM
Originally posted by Boomer
One teacher, One demonstrator and two taxis can only do so much in teaching/helping people. Not suggesting this doesn’t happen anyway, just sharing my thoughts, all the best:nice:
Indeed, not to mention the negative impact of blokes, sometimes even the odd incompetent taxi "dancer" who try to show off to new beginners, and end up yanking them about into all kinds of complicated moves that only confuses the hell out them.

Beginner ladies frequently equate a bloke pulling them into complicated moves that they can't follow with (a) him being good and (b) her being crap.

When, of course, it's much more likely to be the other way round.

Chris

007
21st-October-2003, 03:01 PM
Mikey You couldn't e more right if you tried. It's all about entertaining.

Mikey
21st-October-2003, 03:21 PM
Originally posted by 007
Mikey You couldn't e more right if you tried. It's all about entertaining.

why thankyou Mr Bond... i note we have interests in common as well...:D

007
21st-October-2003, 03:27 PM
Well what can i say mikey. You are the key to entertainment. We both have mutual "friend" if thats what you can call him.

bigdjiver
21st-October-2003, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by Gus
Just a thought ... if teaching is paramount for intermediates ... how come there are so many BAD teachers out there who still seem to pull in dancers?

I am basing my comments, as best I can, on experience. I do not know any Modern Jive teachers who do not have some gift for entertainment. Ceroc looks for it as a component.

I do know a few teachers who get confused, some occassionally, some every lesson. Every lesson makes a bad teacher in my book. I know of no Ceroc teacher like that. One such teacher runs a commercially successful venue. I think it is because they are a good entertainer, and run a very lively social scene. People that I know visit it complain of the poor standard of dancing.

I have heard of a teacher who allegedly will stop a lesson and make a class stop whilst a couple in the class demonstrate a move, and then tell the class what they were doing wrong. It is not how I would run any form of class. I have heard this teacher praised for his high standards. That class has also lasted a long time. I have heard a famous old ballet teacher defend this sort of humiliating approach because it is a hard profession that they are going into.

Does anybody know of a Modern Jive teacher that is dull?

TheTramp
21st-October-2003, 03:33 PM
Originally posted by bigdjiver
Does anybody know of a Modern Jive teacher that is dull? Yes. But I'm not mentioning any names, and wild horses couldn't drag any names out of me :na: :D

Steve

ChrisA
21st-October-2003, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by bigdjiver
Does anybody know of a Modern Jive teacher that is dull?
Regrettably yes - I know one that bored me silly with constant cringeingly poor attempts at humour, coupled with teaching that was mediocre at best.

Chris

Lounge Lizard
21st-October-2003, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by bigdjiver
Does anybody know of a Modern Jive teacher that is dull? More than one:sad:

IMHO The class must be well taught AND entertaining, plus fast moving (to suit the level of the dancers) if possible.

Jon L
22nd-October-2003, 12:33 AM
Re Class length:

As a beginner I valued my teacher who comprehensively broke down and explained the move including common errors with them. This is vitally important.

I have also been to classes where at intermediate level the teacher has missed a point in the move - which was vital, as the moved collapses if the point was missed.

I have come across a jive teacher who was on the dull side.

I have always been prepared to tolerate longer classes for the sake of dancers who are trying to learn things.

Chris
22nd-October-2003, 02:24 PM
I think I'd say I like to be educated, entertained or inspired. If I am one or more of those I'm getting my time/money's worth. If not, I hope to just contribute by being an attentive student and polite to the ladies (I reckon people in the class maybe have a duty to act properly even if they're not getting much out of it).
:cheers:

Roger C
24th-October-2003, 10:51 AM
Hey Chris,

I think that you have it about right - the complete package.

Roger

Chris
29th-October-2003, 06:40 PM
If I can dare to compare a dance class to a meal - being an entertainer is maybe one end of the spectrum - say chocolate; :drool:
could teaching is maybe the other end - say brussel sprouts?:devil:

Some classes give everyone "what they want" and slip in the teaching by sleight of hand. (Reminds me of my mum who used to try and hide a forkful of brussel spouts under gravy and roast potato).

Others concentrate on the teaching but include enough tidbits to keep 'em interested.

Most come somewhere in between (although Mikey's classes probably include sensuous chocolate mousse, chocolate souffle to dip your toes in, creme eggs to find embarrassing ways of eating, and sexy Hagen Daz chocolate ice cream to be eaten with one spoon between two).
:rofl: :rofl:

As Ceroc has evolved as social, street-dance (as opposed to something you learn at dance school), there's maybe a strong argument that the entertainment aspect has to be there as a hook (even if it's just looking cool enough to eat like Viktor and Lydia!):yum:

We sign up for fun, and later on look for more we can learn - like the difference perhaps between learning a class at school (where the teacher needs to keep the attention in order to teach them) and teaching post graduate students (who have developed greater active learning skills).

I think it was Amir that said the average class not only has to speak to the lowest common denominator but include enough information for experienced dancers . . .

Anyway, this late post was just cos I got to thinking of the analogies between chocolate and dancing (Freudian I'm sure!:blush: ). Actually that should be chocolate and sex if you go to one of Mikey's sinful classes :wink:

And take your rosary beads to atone for your sins afterwards:yum:

Paul F
31st-October-2003, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by Chris
Anyway, this late post was just cos I got to thinking of the analogies between chocolate and dancing ..........



Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!!

Chocolate and dancing.

Thats a perfect partnership :wink:


:nice:

Tazmanian Devil
22nd-November-2003, 01:48 AM
I think the teachers should definately be entertainers. I have been to 3 of mikeys classes over the last week and they were all interesting to say the least!!:wink: The crowd loved the style of dance the humor that came with it and definately the caberet :grin: Oh and thanks for the dance Mikey it was fun:kiss: :hug:

Mikey
22nd-November-2003, 04:19 AM
Originally posted by Tazmanian Devil
I think the teachers should definately be entertainers. I have been to 3 of mikeys classes over the last week and they were all interesting to say the least!!:wink: The crowd loved the style of dance the humor that came with it and definately the caberet :grin: Oh and thanks for the dance Mikey it was fun:kiss: :hug:

:hug: well, thankyou very much for the compliments.. the teaching is one thing, but if the pupils taking it, don't get involved and have fun then that makes anything i teach worthless and boring.. I am happy to note most do take my classes for the humour and fun that they are, hence laughter and enjoyment for all.. myself, very much included :grin:

Let me not forget the glamour beside me over the last week at Camber and Dartford, namely Christine and Marianne:yum: the rather stunning demonstrators who help me shine..

I look forward to another dance soon Taz, if you come and identify yourself to me as i don't know who you are :what:

Tazmanian Devil
22nd-November-2003, 10:46 AM
Originally posted by Mikey
I look forward to another dance soon Taz, if you come and identify yourself to me as i don't know who you are :what:


I'm sure we will dance again soon :wink: I danced with you at Dartford on thursday Also had a few dances with your pal Iain! Does that give you any clues? :confused: If not check out the whos who thread in chit chat There is a couple of pics of me there:kiss: :hug:

Mikey
22nd-November-2003, 01:27 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tazmanian Devil
[B]I'm sure we will dance again soon :wink:

aaahhh... then you will be tall, with long dark hair and the sultry look in your eyes.. (that or you had a cold ?) we will indeed dance again, since we only had one dance in Dartford.. actually i must get back there soon to enjoy the big hall, it was so unfortunate they were forced into that small one last thursday...

I shall :kiss: look forward to that dance..

Lounge Lizard
22nd-November-2003, 01:57 PM
Originally posted by Mikey
[QUOTE][i] it was so unfortunate they were forced into that small one last thursday...
Is this a strictly sinfull side effect

Chris
22nd-November-2003, 02:13 PM
Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
Is this a strictly sinfull side effect

"when every atom was a magnificent glow"?

Mikey
22nd-November-2003, 03:09 PM
Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
Is this a strictly sinfull side effect

:what: now now mr philips.. lowering the tone.. don't catch me doing that :innocent:

Lounge Lizard
22nd-November-2003, 03:26 PM
Originally posted by Mikey
:what: now now mr philips.. lowering the tone.. don't catch me doing that :innocent:
Sorry sir, - I did not even do your class yet the first lady I meet in the corridor gets me down on all fours jumps on my back and tells me "dont worry it's a dance move"

Mikey
22nd-November-2003, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
Sorry sir, - I did not even do your class yet the first lady I meet in the corridor gets me down on all fours jumps on my back and tells me "dont worry it's a dance move"


:rofl: well now.. i hope as a professional you went with the flow.. as i am sure you have on many occasions..:wink:

Chris
22nd-November-2003, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
Sorry sir, - I did not even do your class yet the first lady I meet in the corridor gets me down on all fours jumps on my back and tells me "dont worry it's a dance move"

One of the nice things about Mikey's class is that almost any human activity is relatively clean by comparison. If you're too tired for mad passionate sex afterwards just beat a hasty retreat :)

Tazmanian Devil
22nd-November-2003, 04:40 PM
Originally posted by Mikey
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tazmanian Devil
[B]I'm sure we will dance again soon :wink:

aaahhh... then you will be tall, with long dark hair and the sultry look in your eyes.. (that or you had a cold ?) we will indeed dance again, since we only had one dance in Dartford.. actually i must get back there soon to enjoy the big hall, it was so unfortunate they were forced into that small one last thursday...

I shall :kiss: look forward to that dance..


Yes thats me, I always have that look in my eye when im dancing with a good dancer!!:kiss:

Mikey
23rd-November-2003, 04:40 PM
Originally posted by Tazmanian Devil
Yes thats me, I always have that look in my eye when im dancing with a good dancer!!:kiss:


it's the sight of me shaking my booty huh , thats what puts that look in your eye.. well, heres a little reminder of how it looks hun....:kiss:

Lory
23rd-November-2003, 04:52 PM
Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
Sorry sir, - I did not even do your class yet the first lady I meet in the corridor gets me down on all fours jumps on my back and tells me "dont worry it's a dance move" Coughing here! :sorry :innocent: That was ME!



:wink: Funny thing was, I didn't feel any resistance at all!




:rofl:

Tazmanian Devil
23rd-November-2003, 05:29 PM
Originally posted by Mikey
it's the sight of me shaking my booty huh , thats what puts that look in your eye.. well, heres a little reminder of how it looks hun....:kiss:



:rofl: :rofl: Thanks hunny the image is now stuck in my head :wink: although the real you is a better picture!! :kiss: :hug:

Lory
13th-January-2004, 02:23 PM
I realised something this weekend, It's more important to me, to be entertained than it is to learn intricate moves.

When people are laughing, it breaks down so many barriers, nerves vanish, the atmosphere is lifted and it's a lovely sight to see a room full of smiling faces!:nice::hug:

Bill
13th-January-2004, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by Lory
I realised something this weekend, It's more important to me, to be entertained than it is to learn intricate moves. In that case get yourself to Scotland..................... we might not do too many intricate moves but we might make you laugh and sometimes with us instead of at us .........................:D

Lynn
13th-January-2004, 03:23 PM
Re the title of this thread – I think both. And I agree with the comments that it’s probably most important to have the ‘fun’ element in the beginners class. I’m running an ‘Introduction to salsa’ evening for friends & acquaintances (I’m a beginner myself) and though I know several salsa teachers I have booked one who I taught the first class I went to because it was so much fun you almost didn’t notice you were learning, but you were. And that experience will make people want to go back.

Many want to improve their dancing, learn more than moves etc (me, included) but fun, enjoyment, entertainment are all part of the package, so the teacher should reflect that in the classes.

I don’t teach MJ (beginner there too!) but I do lecture part time and IMO yes, if there is some ‘fun’ element the lesson will stick, and also there needs to be encouragement and even inspiration (if possible!) but for me the mark of a good teacher is when the person learning realises that they ‘get it’, they can do it, they can grasp the fundamentals and know they can move on from there. That’s what makes someone want to keep learning, at whatever level. :grin:

Mikey
13th-January-2004, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by Bill
In that case get yourself to Scotland..................... we might not do too many intricate moves but we might make you laugh and sometimes with us instead of at us .........................:D

I always try to achieve both when i teach.. I try to have the class laugh with me and at me when i take the mickey out of myself too.. I like to think everyone can have fun while they learn, so thats what i aim for personally..:nice:

Tazmanian Devil
13th-January-2004, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by Mikey
I always try to achieve both when i teach.. I try to have the class laugh with me and at me when i take the mickey out of myself too.. I like to think everyone can have fun while they learn, so thats what i aim for personally..:nice:


And what a good job you do too!! You and Kelly are the best teacher entertainers I have met. Always resulting in making the crowd have a good laugh as well as learning some great routines!! :kiss: :hug: