Why is 'WCS music' as it is ?

[frodo]

I have to say that on my admittedly very limited experience, there is a lot more variety of music and steps in linedance, particularly in the newline scene, than there is in ceroc. I normally linedance to all sorts – rap, hip hop, soul, R & B, Irish, Latin, pop, vintage, lindy, rock & roll, and even occasionally a bit of country (did I leave anything out? My mistake then…).
The comment above raised a question for me:-

The UK WCS scene mostly draws dancers from the line dancing world and the Modern Jive(incl. Ceroc) world.

A key point of line dancing (and I think also Modern Jive) is that it is danced to a wide variety of music.

I don't know the technical terms but so:-

Why is 'WCS music' so predominantly beat heavy without much melody.


To qualify where I'm coming this music is the biggest thing putting me off WCS. Is there any point learning a dance when so much of the music you dislike or find boring (I acknowledge it may have breaks and have technical interest / not just be a regular thump thump) ?

OK not all music played for WCS is 'WCS music' (for example the above doesn't describe at all the competition tracks on the DVD of last April's Jive Addiction WCS championships), but it does seem to be normal.

[Brian Doolan]

I don't know the technical terms but so:-

Why is 'WCS music' so predominantly beat heavy without much melody.




Hi Frodo, please excuse the length of this list but it's a few of the popular music tracks I have that are being used at the moment up here for WCS, few of them are beat heavy or without melody.


Aretha Franklin - Try Matty's
Chris Thomas King - Kiss
Band of Oz - Shut Up and Shag
Dorona Alberti and Gare du Nord - Marvin & Miles
JC Chasez - One Night Stand
James Cotton - How Long Can A Fool Go Wrong (with Shemekia Copeland)
Joe Cocker - You Haven't Done Nothin'
Finis Tasby - Get Drunk And Be Somebody
Koko Taylor & BB King - Blues Hotel
Patti Labelle - You're Gonna Make Me Love Someone Else
Lou Rawls & Junior Wells - Baby, What You Want Me to Do
Popa Chubby feat. Galea - (Sittin' On) The Dock of the Bay
Mike Morgan & the Crawl - Ain't Worried No More
Michael Jackson - Whatever Happens
Ty Herndon - Steam
Tanya Tucker - You Just Watch Me
Willis - Word Up
Brother Yusef - I Got The Blues
John Legend - PDA (We Just Don't Care)
Omar & Angie Stone - Be Thankful for What You Got
Popa Chubby - Sweat
Murali Coryell - Who Told You
Shaun Escoffery - Aht Uh Mi Hed
Lemon Ice - Stand By Me

[dave the scaffolder]

TROUBLE HERE...... LOGGED ON AS DTS BY ERROR........DOH .... But i have got to say that i absolutely adore wcs music. I would love to get my hands on CD;s with just that type of music on it so that i can really learn the beats and listen for the breaks / styling that can be done (once ive learnt how to do them of course).

As for why is it as it is, its purely the beats needed for the steps to work i think. Being a novice, im not sure, but thats what i gather the basis of WCS what is suitable WCS music. :blush: could be wrong of course. xx

[angelblue]

Hi Y'all,

I dont often write on this site but i have a quick glimpse everynow at the wcs stuff and this thread really interested me.

This is because i love love love wcs music, and i think it is a shame it can bore people. You gotta remember though wcs in this country (well, in the ceroc scene) is still quite young and so the heavy thump thump beat of the music your talking about is probably chosen because its easy to hear and dance to the beat.

There is such a wide range of music you can use to wcs to. And you can stretch and accelerate the steps to fit some really cool songs but that is more advanced way of dancing which is why we dont hear the variety of tunes yet.


You also have to remember that the wcs djs play tunes that are popular at the time so you may be hearing similar sounds everywhere you go. What we need is a pioneering wc dj who is willing to get out there and experiment.

get yourself to a country event or one of the U.S. events, you will hear a much wider variety!

[Sugarfoot]

Hi Frodo, please excuse the length of this list but it's a few of the popular music tracks I have that are being used at the moment up here for WCS, few of them are beat heavy or without melody.


Aretha Franklin - Try Matty's
Chris Thomas King - Kiss
Band of Oz - Shut Up and Shag
Dorona Alberti and Gare du Nord - Marvin & Miles
JC Chasez - One Night Stand
James Cotton - How Long Can A Fool Go Wrong (with Shemekia Copeland)
Joe Cocker - You Haven't Done Nothin'
Finis Tasby - Get Drunk And Be Somebody
Koko Taylor & BB King - Blues Hotel
Patti Labelle - You're Gonna Make Me Love Someone Else
Lou Rawls & Junior Wells - Baby, What You Want Me to Do
Popa Chubby feat. Galea - (Sittin' On) The Dock of the Bay
Mike Morgan & the Crawl - Ain't Worried No More
Michael Jackson - Whatever Happens
Ty Herndon - Steam
Tanya Tucker - You Just Watch Me
Willis - Word Up
Brother Yusef - I Got The Blues
John Legend - PDA (We Just Don't Care)
Omar & Angie Stone - Be Thankful for What You Got
Popa Chubby - Sweat
Murali Coryell - Who Told You
Shaun Escoffery - Aht Uh Mi Hed
Lemon Ice - Stand By Me

:clap: Nice mixed list Brian. Just starting to teach WCS down here on the South coast. Some useful tracks that I had not thought of. I would rep you, but they won't let me.

[KatieR]

Some other absolutely brilliant WCS tracks that I like to play that I don't think are too 'beat heavy' as they are:

Let's Rock - Chrisette Michelle
Down in the Valley - Otis Redding
Cocaine - Robin Thicke (one of my favourites)
Secret - Maroon 5 (an oldie but a goodie, I never get tired of dancing to this)
Baby What you want me to do - Etta James
Fade Away - Mary J Blige
Give it Back - Gaelle


they are a few of my faves (the top two I stole from Jordan's playlist!! :whistle: )

There are so many great tracks, and I'm always listening to stuff to try and find better tracks to West Coast to.

There are a number of US radio streams that play west coast music, they don't change the tracks very often, but if you want a few good ones, they can be handy.

[Minnie M]

.........What we need is a pioneering wc dj who is willing to get out there and experiment.

'pioneering'??

I could name a few of established DJs already doing that - what we need is WCS organisers BOOKING them :yeah: A good DJ doesn't just play one style of music :worthy:

[johnnyman]

I think it is great that people are finding the music challenging as much as the dancing.

I wish there would be a rotation of music, not just the regular tracks that are played every time I go to a freestyle ('The Snake', 'Slow Boat to China' to name but two) and WCS events do provide an alternative to what is normally out there.

WCS helps to tone and colour your dancing and the triple-steps and anchor steps offer a variation and alternative to the step-in, step-out footwork in Ceroc/MJ

best
johnnyman

[Geordieed]

'pioneering'??

I could name a few of established DJs already doing that - what we need is WCS organisers BOOKING them :yeah: A good DJ doesn't just play one style of music :worthy:


A little faith and patience from dancers and organisers would help. Organisers do take risks but dancers can be a difficult bunch to please. You can't please everyone. At the end of an event it depends who you choose to take feedback from and act upon it. We progress as dancers and make mistakes along the way. That's how we learn. Unfortunately DJ's aren't afforded the same luxuries... It can be crushing for an aspiring DJ to receive destructive comments not to mention established DJ's.

Is it a case that you have to build a strong exterior to protect yourself from unconstructive comments and in doing so distance yourself from the mob, I mean majority of the people you are playing for...

[Lee Bartholomew]

Maybe WCS music is percived as it is because MJ music in the main is so dull and predictable?

[David Franklin]

Hi Frodo, please excuse the length of this list but it's a few of the popular music tracks I have that are being used at the moment up here for WCS, few of them are beat heavy or without melody.I have to be honest, I've been listening through quite a few of the tracks selected, and I think frodo makes a good point, although perhaps the words could have been chosen better.

I don't know I'd call the suggestions beat heavy, but I'd say most of them are certainly rhythm heavy.

I'm not trying to say it's as simple as "there's no melody", but certainly the emphasis isn't on the melody. If you asked someone what characterizes the song to them, I think most of the time their response would come down to a distinctive part of the rhythm or accent. In contrast, I think with many MJ songs people find the melody more distinctive.

Obviously this is a generalization, and most dance songs of any genre are going to have a strong rhythmic core. But now frodo's mentioned it, I do find myself thinking music played for WCS tends to be particularly so.

Which doesn't mean I don't personally prefer WCS music over MJ music - I think the rhythm's the main component part of what we dance to. But I can certainly see an argument for preferring MJ music if you find melody the most important part of the song. But if going down that road, my personal preference is to go "all the way" and choose tracks with very little overt rhythm - and again this tends to be outside of what's normally played for MJ.

[Geordieed]

I love the variation of music played at the events in America. In defense of some of the regular DJ's found were MJ and WCS is danced we play alot of contempary music that the DJ's in the States play. Our range is not as far reaching and I would love to see or should I say hear some of the Blues that is played Stateside. The Blues music that is played is slow, medium and fast. Anyone who has watched the Strictly competitions on DVD/youTube etc will see.

When Knobe used to work the discs on a regular basis he used to play some great Swing/Blues music. Also when DJing at Southport I have had some of the Pros ask who he was because he was playing such cool music...Didn't keep it to myself I made sure to pass on the compliment...

The great thing about WCS and the music that is played to dance to is that you can pick out so much from it whether it be rhythm, percussion, melody, phrasing, accents, double accents etc the list goes on...

[CheesyRobMan]

Band of Oz - Shut Up and Shag

:what:

[Lory]

...this music is the biggest thing putting me off WCS.

Is there any point learning a dance when so much of the music you dislike or find boring

I can totally understand where your coming from, as the above statement described me and Salsa perfectly. I love the dance but I can't handle a whole night of Salsa music :sick: Also, as much as I try, I don't like traditional Tango music but love the dance!

Whereas, one of the things I like most about WCS, is the fact I absolutely love the music. :clap: My preference, if I had to choose, is for the more up-tempo, funky fast stuff but the smooth stuff is also more preferable to me, than most 'mainroom' playlists

The thing I believe most people don't realise is, there's lots of MJ music that's WCSwingable, I know this is true, cos half the time, I find myself going into WCS auto-drive. :blush: But, when people are new to it, they need the slower stuff, with the heavy beat, to tune into the count...

At the weekend, I danced with a very experienced (and well known) MJ dancer, who is just starting to dabble with WCS and he confessed (which must have taken a lot of courage) that he keeps 'loosing it' and can't get back into the rhythm of the dance, without starting over or being prompted. So, he asked me if I'd help him and keep counting him in when he got lost. No problem!
With this attitude, (of being humble and asking for help) I know, he'll progress very quickly.:worthy:

As one gains experience, we begin to be able to hear and tune into much more subtle rhythms but as WCS is fairly new in the MJ world, I think it'll take a while for this to take effect!

[Chef]

:what:

In the U.S. there is a dance called Carolina Shag. The word shag or shagging has no other meaning for our American cousins other than the dance. So if you ask an American lady if she would like a shag at a dance event you would probably be dragged onto the dance floor, which most british males would consider an unsuitable place for a shag.

However it does lead to some wonderfully schoolboy sniggering over on this side of the pond as we enjoy dancing to some of their songs such as "shagging the night away" and others.

Have a look on youtube for shag+dance or carolina shag to see some examples of the dance.

[Lee Bartholomew]

With what I am playing, I dont think it could be said it is either MJ or WCS, It's both. Hell some you could prob Tango, Salsa NC2S to.

[NZ Monkey]

Our range is not as far reaching and I would love to see or should I say hear some of the Blues that is played Stateside. The Blues music that is played is slow, medium and fast. :yeah:

The majority of my dancing these days is WCS, and the lions share of the music we're dancing to has been sourced from American DJ's. After reading this thread I've gone back to some of the playlists I collected while I was in the UK and they are definitely simpler and more repetitive in general than what I use now.

This isn't a criticism of the UK DJ's though - they have to cater to the majority of the dancers the majority of the time and WCS is small but rapidly growing which means most of the dancers are novices.

As it's been mentioned before, a heavy beat (or rhythm) helps with learning the timing of the dance, which is the first big hurdle for us MJ'ers. Given time there will be more experienced dancers who can help the newer ones more and this feature of the music will be less prominent.

So sayeth NZ Monkey's crystal ball. :whistle:

[MartinHarper]

There's lots of MJ music that's WCSwingable.

Pretty much all of it, as far as I can tell.

[frodo]

..although perhaps the words could have been chosen better.
...rhythm heavy ...
...the emphasis isn't on the melody.

Absolutely it could have been better phased. "Rhythm heavy" much better describes what I was trying to ask.

"Beat heavy" is somewhat misleading in that it often isn't that a particular beat that is heavy but the rhythm as a whole dominates the song.

The original question might be better put:-

Why in 'WCS music' does the rhythm dominate so much over the melody

[NZ Monkey]

Why in 'WCS music' does the rhythm dominate so much over the melodyI'm not convinced that it does in general, but assuming that this is the case I have a few suggestions as to why that may be. These are just taken off the top of my head and are not backed up by any sort of analysis.

1. Most dancers are dancing to popular modern music, and the current trend of this music is rhythym heavy. A case in point might be the rise of R&B and Rap in popular culture.

2. It's a phase that the scene in the UK is going through to help the fledgling community grow. It's easier dancing to a nice strong beat, and the more practice you get the easier it is to dance to something without one.

3. Your definition of "WCS music" is too narrow, and includes a strong rythym or weak melody because that's all you've seen or makes sense to you at the moment.

Any/all/none of the above may apply :flower:

[frodo]

i love love love wcs music, and i think it is a shame it can bore people. You gotta remember though wcs in this country (well, in the ceroc scene) is still quite young and so the heavy thump thump beat of the music your talking about is probably chosen because its easy to hear and dance to the beat.


- they have to cater to the majority of the dancers the majority of the time and WCS is small but rapidly growing which means most of the dancers are novices.

As it's been mentioned before, a heavy beat (or rhythm) helps with learning the timing of the dance, which is the first big hurdle for us MJ'ers. Given time there will be more experienced dancers who can help the newer ones more and this feature of the music will be less prominent


As for why is it as it is, its purely the beats needed for the steps to work ...


...WCS ... I absolutely love the music. :clap: My preference ... is for the more up-tempo, funky fast stuff but the smooth stuff is also more preferable to me, than most 'mainroom' playlists

....But, when people are new to it, they need the slower stuff, with the heavy beat, to tune into the count...

These look to be good reasons. I'd like to think that 'WCS music' would change because of the relatively low level of expertise compared the the US.

But I'm finding it a little hard to be convinced 'WCS music' is needed as a crutch, rather than being more akin to a fashion:-

If all I'd heard was beginner and class WCS tracks I would have said I strongly like WCS music. Almost always the tracks I've heard in those situations have not been rhythm dominant

Freestyle situations, where relatively advanced dancers are dancing and looking rather confident is the context I'm thinking of when talking about 'WCS music'. Relative 'beginners' they may be in US competition terms they may be but more advanced than I'm likely to aspire to, and near the top in MJ terms.

[frodo]

...it's a few of the popular music tracks I have that are being used at the moment up here for WCS, few of them are beat heavy or without melody.
<snip list>

Based on the first 30 seconds of most of them which I can find on ITunes. Certainly, especially the later ones aren't beat heavy or lack melody.

Some are rhythm heavy to a degree but I wouldn't have a problem with that list being played.

I was just wondering if you thought that is a fair cross section of what you dance to, or focused towards the ones with more melody.



Some other absolutely brilliant WCS tracks that I like to play that I don't think are too 'beat heavy' as they are:
<snip list>

I don't thinks so either, especially the latter ones - I'm curious what type of tracks you would predominantly play - as in are your these your more rhythm lite examples.

[frodo]

...
I wish there would be a rotation of music, not just the regular tracks that are played every time I go to a freestyle ('The Snake', 'Slow Boat to China' to name but two) and WCS events do provide an alternative to what is normally out there.

WCS helps to tone and colour your dancing and the triple-steps and anchor steps offer a variation and alternative to the step-in, step-out footwork in Ceroc/MJ
Variation and alternative :clap:

But I'd really like variation and variety within an evening, which is exactly what I don't expect I'll come across at a single room WCS only event.

I'd love to know that that expection is wrong.


The great thing about WCS and the music that is played to dance to is that you can pick out so much from it whether it be rhythm, percussion, melody, phrasing, accents, double accents etc the list goes on...
Percussion, melody, phrasing, accents, double accents are all great, but the domination of the rhythm can make it hard work and/or more often simply sap the will to pick them out.

[frodo]

Maybe WCS music is perceived as it is because MJ music in the main is so dull and predictable?
MJ music on average may not be that great, but MJ is common enough that there is choice on offer given some willingness to travel.


I love the variation of music played at the events in America. ...


get yourself to a country event or one of the U.S. events, you will hear a much wider variety!
Good to know it does still depend to a degree on the travel distance.

[frodo]

Your definition of "WCS music" is too narrow, and includes a strong rythym or weak melody because that's all you've seen or makes sense to you at the moment
The term 'WCS music' comes from what (I think) is generally played in the southern half of England.


MartinHarper (and others) have pointed out that virtually all MJ music is WCS music, so 'WCS music' in this context refers to what is relatively distinctive about it.

In particular, the music being played when people have complained of 'too much WCS music' at Modern Jive events.


Maybe a better question would be:-

Why is so much 'WCS music' played by WCS DJs.

[KatieR]

I don't thinks so either, especially the latter ones - I'm curious what type of tracks you would predominantly play - as in are your these your more rhythm lite examples.

Not quite sure what you mean, but some of the great West Coast tracks that are possibly a little more rhythm heavy might be a Justin Timberlake track, The Way I Are by Timbaland.. Busted by Vitamin C..

An example of what I would be different might be as follows:

The other night I did two sets, the first was catering for Modern Jive but still with the music still having a predominantly WCS feel, the tracks in this playlist were:

Let's Dance - Vanessa Hudgens
Happy Summertime - R Kelly feat Snoop Dog (still a really smooth track though!)
Radar - Britney Spears
One Night Stand - JC Chasez
The Way I Are - Timbaland
Got to Give It Up - Aaliyah
Wait A Minute - PCD
Busted - Vitamin C
Crazy - Gnarls Barkley
Love Don't Let Me Go - David Guetta

Everyone just thought they were really great MJ tracks with a slightly funky sound, as apposed to their usual doof doof.

The second playlist I did, had a much more West Coast feel and tracks that a few people struggled with, but it was played late in the evening for those that wanted to stick around and try something a little different.

Let's Rock - Chrisette Michele
Me & You - Cassie
Idlewild Blues - Outkast
Cocaine - Robin Thicke
Get Involved - Raphael Saadiq
Love Mechanic - Willie Clayton
Get Your Way - Jamie Cullum
Sexy Plexi - Jack Johnson
Down In the valley - Otis Redding
Sugar - Trick Daddy
Secret - Maroon 5

A lot of MJ'ers said they struggled with a few of the tracks because they didn't hear the beat.

I hope that gives you an idea as to how I might differentiate the 'beat heavy' and not so beat heavy...

Note to NZ Monkey... I still owe you that CD... slap my wrist!!!

[NZ Monkey]

Note to NZ Monkey... I still owe you that CD... slap my wrist!!!SLAP! There we go :wink:

Just some songs from the playlist I was listening to on the bus this morning that might interest Frodo as well:

Fix it man - Buddy Ace
Cold, Cold Heart - Norah Jones
Under the Bridge - Ray Bonneville
Popsicle Toes - Dianna Krall
Stand by Me - Eric Matienthal
Multiply - Jamie Lidell
Till it Shines - Lyle Lovett
I'll Walk Away - James Hunter
You're the One - Tracey Chapman
Alright, OK, You Win - Tony Bennett
Speaking of Happiness - Gloria Lynne
Ode to Billie Joe - Tom Scott* (a personal favourite :respect:)
My Sisters Radio - Tommy Gastro (another favourite :cool: )

There are plenty more songs as well of course, but this should be a pretty nice sample of something a little different.


*I think, it's a woman singing so I have a feeling the artist is incorrectly labelled in my iPod for this version.

[KatieR]

SLAP! There we go :wink:

Just some songs from the playlist I was listening to on the bus this morning that might interest Frodo as well:

Fix it man - Buddy Ace
Cold, Cold Heart - Norah Jones
Under the Bridge - Ray Bonneville
Popsicle Toes - Dianna Krall
Stand by Me - Eric Matienthal
Multiply - Jamie Lidell
Till it Shines - Lyle Lovett
I'll Walk Away - James Hunter
You're the One - Tracey Chapman
Alright, OK, You Win - Tony Bennett
Speaking of Happiness - Gloria Lynne
Ode to Billie Joe - Tom Scott* (a personal favourite :respect:)
My Sisters Radio - Tommy Gastro (another favourite :cool: )

There are plenty more songs as well of course, but this should be a pretty nice sample of something a little different.


*I think, it's a woman singing so I have a feeling the artist is incorrectly labelled in my iPod for this version.

Some good tracks there!

My version of Ode to Billie Joe is by Tom Scott and L.A Express (I'm guessing that's where the female voice is from..)

[Tessalicious]

I've been trying to work out for days what was bothering me about this debate, and now I've worked it out. I'm curious as to why the dichotomy has developed of 'melodic = good' v 'rhythmic = bad', and whether this is really the case.

Melodic music is great and all, but for me it's the rhythm that makes me want to dance, and the complexity (and tempo) of that rhythm which makes me put that song into a rough genre (pop for MJ, latin for MJ, RnB for MJ, RnB for WCS, blues for WCS or for blues-dance, etc).

Crucially, a WCS track (in my limited experience) needs to have an element to the rhythm which makes the triple steps work and, for DJs selecting music for a WCS class or freestyle, this must be the primary concern, or they won't be playing WCS music. This criterion happens to be more frequently met in tracks where the rhythm is a major feature, because otherwise the music would be simply too complex (many tracks achieve both, but it's really difficult to do well).

The classic example for me of where the rhythm holds the key to a very popular song's popularity is 'Billie Jean', which still always makes everyone in a class (young or old, rhythmic or arhythmic, tone deaf or pitch-perfect, hot-shot music snob or beginner) start to groove the second it starts to play, guaranteed. That's not because of the melody, I can promise you - it's cos the initial rhythmic riffs are infectious.

My theory about WCS music is that once you start feeling the triple steps and where they fit in the rhythm, you're addicted to WCS music forever. Maybe until then it's just a lot of 'beat-heavy' noise, which is such a shame.

frodo, I really hope you soon find inspiration from some WCS tracks to help you enjoy learning it :)

[DavidB]

I try not to get involved in WCS threads any more, but the music side of this interests me.

I don't think it is possible to explain someone else's likes or dislikes regarding music, or argue that they are right or wrong. All I can do is explain my own preferences. I do like a lot of modern RnB, both for listening and for dancing. I don't like listening to a lot of the blues-derived music that gets played at the moment, and am quite happy not to dance to it.

I used to put it down to these tracks being overplayed - they might be recent in the UK, but a lot of them have been played for the last 10 years for WCS. Now I'm not so sure. I think (for me) a lot of it is down to the choice of rhythm section (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhythm_section).

When I first started listening to music a lot in the '80s and '90s, I thought I liked a lot of different styles - pop, rock, electronic, dance etc. In reality they were fairly similar - I became used to music where the rhythm and energy came from the drummer or drum machine. The melody was confined just to the vocals. I didn't listen to much classical music, jazz, or 'world music'.

When I listen to music now where the rhythm comes from a double-bass for example (like a lot of swing), I miss the sound of hi-hats and cymbals. It is almost as if the music sounds incomplete. I get the same feeling with blues. This might be due to the instruments that provide the rhythm, or simply that the pitch is lower (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_note).

I have no doubt that someone else could listen to a blues track and a modern RnB track, and say exactly the opposite. I think this is part of what Frodo is saying.

Another possibility is that a lot of modern music has a lot of dynamic compression (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_level_compression). Some (http://www.geocities.com/mjareviews/rant7.html) people don't like this. Maybe I do?

I also wonder if the different rhythm sections require different setups for the PA equipment. Maybe a DJ would have a view on this? I know when I used to listen to music with a view to teaching or for a cabaret, it could sound completely different on PA system compared to an MP3 player or home hifi.

[Lory]

I don't think it is possible to explain someone else's likes or dislikes regarding music,

:yeah: I can't even explain my own! Take 'Rap' for example, I often really like the track, untill the actual 'rapping' section come's on :sick:

Then it just plain annoys me, as the lyrical bit in every track sounds exactly the same 'to me', just like they're complaining aggresively in a monotone voice. :rolleyes:

[robd]

I try not to get involved in WCS threads any more,

Why is that David?


I do like a lot of modern RnB, both for listening and for dancing. I don't like listening to a lot of the blues-derived music that gets played at the moment, and am quite happy not to dance to it.

:yeah:

[robd]

I'm no musician so excuse me if I don't use the correct terms but I would guess that frodo is talking mainly about contemporary R&B in his definition of 'WCS Music'. I agree there's a lot of it (and it's a key attraction of the scene for me) but by no means is it the only thing anywhere I go. If you don't like it however there is a likelihood of your perception of an event being unduly coloured by a few tracks of this nature (a perennial problem for the Utopia DJs)

I think it fits WCS well because it does have a clear beat and usually is an easy tempo for beginners. Also because of the emphasis in this type of music on the even beats (downbeats?) I think this helps people to time their triples which need to end on an even beat (4 or 6 or 8 usually) and triples are of course one of the key differences between MJ & WCS.

[MartinHarper]

When I think of the phrase "WCS music", as traditionally used in the phrase "too much xxxxx WCS music" by Modern Jivers at Modern Jive weekenders, I think of two things:

1) slow by MJ standards.
2) rhythm of the form of "b s bbs " (b=base drum,s=snare drum), with no swing.

In other words, generic modern RnB. I don't particularly care for that. The rhythm feels like it's whacking me over the head with the "correct" footwork, and the slowness feels ploddy to me in a dance context. It's fine in limited doses, but I can end up feeling that once I've danced to one track of that kind, I've danced to them all.

[seamus]

A quick post.

When I lived in the US of A, I ended up dancing modern jive at Lindy venues. Luckily for me, my own personal dance style was such that I was easily able to modify it to be able to lead Lindy. Most people didn't even realise I wasn't doing Lindy Hop.

However, I hated the music, so I tried WCS.

I remember saying at the time that it all "Looked like Ceroc", "Sounded like Ceroc", but when you got to dance it, it was hugely different.

Well, actually, my only problem with WCS - as taught in Boston - was that I was simply unable to stay in the channel and would freak everyone out because I could easily do a circuit around the room in just one dance. I decided that for everyones sake, I'd stick with dancing at Lindy venues.

Last June, a couple of my Boston friends, who incidentally are Pro/Am WCS competitors came over here and took a look at the WCS scene and quickly decided that whatever it was that was being taught over here is certainly not their version of WCS. They were practically hospitalised due to disbelief and laughter after the Ceroc WCS class at Chiswick Twon Hall.

These are not unique comments. Other American WCS dancers have said similar things to me.

So, to answer the question about the music, we first need to recognise that WCS in the UK is very definitely not like the WCS in the USA.

It follows that the music is also different. In the USA, I experienced modern music to dance to, I don't recall dancing to country tracks and the only real difference was that the music topped out at about 125 bpm, where modern jive really should be from 125 - 135 bpm.

I may not have answered the topic at hand, but the questions I think that needs to be asked are:

"Why is WCS so different in the UK and why is the music different?" and "Is the demographic of the dancers different (i.e. older, therefore older music with lower bpm) in the UK than the USA and why?"

[KatieR]

My theory about WCS music is that once you start feeling the triple steps and where they fit in the rhythm, you're addicted to WCS music forever. Maybe until then it's just a lot of 'beat-heavy' noise, which is such a shame.
)

That is probably the best description I've heard. That is exactly what I feel when I hear West coast music. I've often wondered why it is that I love WCS music so much and what you have said is pretty much it!

:worthy:

[Lee Bartholomew]

:yeah: I can't even explain my own! Take 'Rap' for example, I often really like the track, untill the actual 'rapping' section come's on :sick:

Then it just plain annoys me, as the lyrical bit in every track sounds exactly the same 'to me', just like they're complaining aggresively in a monotone voice. :rolleyes:

And why do rappers always say "you know what I mean?"? If they just spoke clearly in the first place they wouldn't have to ask that question.

[MartinHarper]

WCS in the UK is very definitely not like the WCS in the USA.

I can't say I noticed WCS in Atlanta being much different from that in the UK, except in terms of experience, and possibly purity. I agree that there was more diversity in music, though.

[Astro]

When I first started listening to music a lot in the '80s and '90s, I thought I liked a lot of different styles - pop, rock, electronic, dance etc. In reality they were fairly similar - I became used to music where the rhythm and energy came from the drummer or drum machine. The melody was confined just to the vocals.

Ooh I love the drums.


I also wonder if the different rhythm sections require different setups for the PA equipment. Maybe a DJ would have a view on this? I know when I used to listen to music with a view to teaching or for a cabaret, it could sound completely different on PA system compared to an MP3 player or home hifi.

Not sure what you mean exactly, but It's easy to get rid of the melody by tuning it almost out and having the bass up high.

This is what I don't like about some clubs. :(


:yeah: I can't even explain my own! Take 'Rap' for example, I often really like the track, untill the actual 'rapping' section come's on :sick:

Then it just plain annoys me, as the lyrical bit in every track sounds exactly the same 'to me', just like they're complaining aggresively in a monotone voice. :rolleyes:

I'm the same. :yeah:

The actual music talked over is often an old classic that's been rehashed. That's why it sounds good. Then some rotter comes on and ruins it. :angry:

[NZ Monkey]

Last June, a couple of my Boston friends, who incidentally are Pro/Am WCS competitors came over here and took a look at the WCS scene and quickly decided that whatever it was that was being taught over here is certainly not their version of WCS. They were practically hospitalised due to disbelief and laughter after the Ceroc WCS class at Chiswick Twon Hall.

These are not unique comments. Other American WCS dancers have said similar things to me.

So, to answer the question about the music, we first need to recognise that WCS in the UK is very definitely not like the WCS in the USA.I find that interesting, because I've not had any similar experiences. In particular, I've not had any problems dancing with the Americans that came through London or the ones who live in or have passed through New Zealand.

I think it's fair to say that there's a big difference in experience level, and I would guess that the overall "style" is a bit more uniform in the UK at the moment given the small number and common backgrounds of most of the teachers so far.

The instructional DVD's I've seen from the USA have also covered exactly the same points on basic technique that I was taught in London, which is usually a good sign.

I suspect your friends may have not taken a particularly wide sample to come to their conclusions about the scene. For what it's worth, I've heard teachers from Canada mention how strong the basics are in the UK - which sounds virtually the opposite of your friends opinion. Additionally, if it was so different in the UK I find it unlikely that Catriona Wiles and Paul Warden (two of the most significant teachers in the scene) would have won both their divisions at Capital Swing recently in the States.

Edit: Caro, Gordieed, PaulF, MsFab and angleblue have all pent time in the states recently. I wonder what their opinion on the matter is?

[robd]

Last June, a couple of my Boston friends, who incidentally are Pro/Am WCS competitors came over here and took a look at the WCS scene and quickly decided that whatever it was that was being taught over here is certainly not their version of WCS. They were practically hospitalised due to disbelief and laughter after the Ceroc WCS class at Chiswick Twon Hall.

These are not unique comments. Other American WCS dancers have said similar things to me.

.........

"Why is WCS so different in the UK and why is the music different?" and "Is the demographic of the dancers different (i.e. older, therefore older music with lower bpm) in the UK than the USA and why?"

Sadly, I have yet to experience any WCS dancing in the States but I have had some experience of dancing with US WCS dancers coming over here and of course exposure to the teachers so I probably speak from a similar level of knowledge (or ignorance depending how you look at it) as your Boston friends of the scene in the 'other' country.

I would expect some differences. Geographical separation tends to lead to variation (regional accents, anyone) in many pursuits. Additionally a decent majority of the people I see on the UK WCS scene have a background in MJ (and I think this has positive and negative aspects for those people when learning the dance) but I don't see a parallel for this in the US. I have heard talk that even within the states there are different flavours of WCS according to location such that dancers from the East Coast may find the styles of those from the West Coast unfamiliar. Yesterday, we were being taught by Mario Robau Jr and I doubt there's anyone more qualified than he to talk about WCS and he talked about anchors needing to be in place (hence the name 'anchor') whereas at the most recent workshops I attended with the top teachers in this country there was an emphasis on the anchors travelling so that the dance had more dynamism. I have little doubt that this thinking is influenced by their contact with their preferred US Pro instructors so this further backs up the idea that there isn't a uniformity of style even within the US.

I don't know if the demographics are different either - when I see clips of social dancing at US swing events there always looks to be a wide age range of dancers in evidence but I accept this isn't really strong evidence.

And when all's said and done, UK WCS is a lot closer to US WCS than football is to its transatlantic namesake :rolleyes:

[Little Miss]

I can't talk about WCS in technical terms as I am far too new to it but what I have observed from teachers coming over here and everything I have watched on You Tube etc, is that there are many variations in the styles of West Coast being danced in America as well as over here, for example, compare Benji and Heidi to Jordan and Tatiana. To my mind they dance completely differently and yet it is called West Coast Swing. Clearly there are fundamentals of the same dance but their styling makes it look like a completely different type of dance a lot of the time.

In this country I have noticed that the majority of WCS dancers started out either dancing MJ or Line Dance/Country and the difference in styling between these two groups is distinct in my opinion, with the music they prefer to dance to often being different too.

I would imagine that as West Coast becomes more progressive and a more mature following of the dance is established in this country, we shall see more similarities with the US.

[frodo]

... In this country I have noticed that the majority of WCS dancers started out either dancing MJ or Line Dance/Country and the difference in styling between these two groups is distinct in my opinion, with the music they prefer to dance to often being different too.
...
Just wondering if there was any general direction, that you've noticed and is easily expressed, to the music preferences of the two groups.

[frodo]

...

We just got back in from our first ever WCS freestyle. It was a real step out of my comfort zone. It's one thing to have the odd (and they are very odd) dabble at WCS at a freestyle somewhere. But to immerse yourself in WCS for a night when you're not a Westie is quite nerve wracking.

.... It's a new event in the area so the level of dancing was very mixed, and complete beginners like me didn't feel at all uncomfortable :flower:

...
The music was......... awesome. I know Pete tried to make the set inclusive, so it wasn't just WCS WCS WCS... there was a nice juicy lump of blues in the middle. He played some brilliant music ...
Relevant post from another thread:-

I hope to hear about more of this type of freestyle going on.


Perhaps the best strategy is to target events weighted towards beginners/crossover so the DJ tries to make the music inclusive.

But as the general standard improves what then ?