Airsteps in Competitions??

[Gus]

The new brochure for the Blackpool Champs has just dropped through my door. With morbid curiosity I glanced over the rules ... then noticed an interseting change. Airsteps are STILL banned :D BUT ... the defintion has changed from the follower needing to keep one foot on the floor at all time to needing to keep one foot below the guys waist (similar to the Australaisian version):confused:

Any views as to whether this is a positive or negative change?

[DavidB]

Having a consistent set of rules from one competition to another helps. So if this becomes the standard definition of an aerial, it is fine by me.

I can't think of any common but dangerous aerials that are now legal.

I'm more disappointed that they haven't introduced an Open category. This worked well at Hammersmith, and in Sydney

[Gus]

Originally posted by DavidB

I'm more disappointed that they haven't introduced an Open category. This worked well at Hammersmith, and in Sydney

Whats the difference between Open and Advanced? Is it just allowing air-steps?

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Gus
Whats the difference between Open and Advanced? Is it just allowing air-steps? Nothing to do with aerials - just a separate category for the best dancers. Anyway Blackpool still has an Air Steps category for anyone who wants to do them.

I've already spoken to one couple who won't bother entering the advanced at Blackpool because they know they wouldn't get past the first round. £25 is a lot of money just to dance one heat. And they are definitely not intermediates any more. If you took the top 10-15 couples out into a separate Open category, they would have a shot at making the Advanced final.

You might also get fewer 'advanced' couples dropping down to the intermediate category, and annoying the real intermediates.

I've seen this category at Hammersmith and Sydney, and in both cases it worked well. I only heard praise for the idea, and no criticism. I don't think it would take any more time to run the competition. But there may be a problem with prize money - I doubt C2D have the budget for another major category at the moment.

David

[Lounge Lizard]

Originally posted by DavidB
I've seen this category at Hammersmith and Sydney, and in both cases it worked well. I only heard praise for the idea, and no criticism. I don't think it would take any more time to run the competition. But there may be a problem with prize money - I doubt C2D have the budget for another major category at the moment.

David would that not be covered by entrance fee?

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
would that not be covered by entrance fee? The only thing I know about the finances of the Blackpool comp is that they need good sales of the video/DVD to break even. Trying to find an extra £800 for the 1st, 2nd and 3rd prizes might be difficult at this stage.

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
would that not be covered by entrance fee? Probably not - since you'd probably get about the same number of people entering, but spread over 3 events, rather than 2. The couple that David was talking about, I'm presuming they will now enter the intermediate.

Originally posted by DavidB
I've already spoken to one couple who won't bother entering the advanced at Blackpool because they know they wouldn't get past the first round. £25 is a lot of money just to dance one heat. And they are definitely not intermediates any more. If you took the top 10-15 couples out into a separate Open category, they would have a shot at making the Advanced final.
It is an interesting point though. The thought of entering, even though you know that you probably won't get anywhere. For myself, I'm pretty sure that we (whoever my partner will be then) wouldn't place at either Blackpool, or Ceroc in London. We'd usually be a good bet for the semi's. And if we dance well, and the judges are looking at the right time, then I guess we'd maybe make the final. But I still enter, mainly because if I'm going to go to Blackpool, and spend all the money getting there, and getting in, I'd rather spend another £12.50, and enter, than just sitting around all day watching. And because it's fun. Isn't that what the majority of people entering do it for? Rather than with any real hopes of getting a trophy.

Steve

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by TheTramp
And because it's fun. Isn't that what the majority of people entering do it for? Rather than with any real hopes of getting a trophy. I think you're right there for the majority, but for some of us, attempting advanced is a major effort in coming up with new stuff, practicing it, remembering the old stuff, practicing it, trying to come up some style, practicing it, and now it seems, doing air steps, and practicing (which can hardly ever be done at a normal jive evening). I was disappointed not to see an Open category, 'cos I'd have to give up everything except dancing to stand the slightest chance against the pros. (I can't imagine I'm alone in this!) I hadn't read far enough to see the change in rules about air steps, but now I know about that one, and even though I've done loads of airsteps in my time, it makes me think that the Intermediate category is where I should be. Which might p**s some people off. However much fun it is, surely anyone having a go must feel getting through one round is attainable?

As far as funding a new major prize, how big does it have to be? How many of us actually go in for the competitions with a thought about getting our hands on a fat cheque?

Greg

[Dave Hancock]

Originally posted by Sheepman
As far as funding a new major prize, how big does it have to be? How many of us actually go in for the competitions with a thought about getting our hands on a fat cheque?


Agree with this totally and for the people who are winning these competitions, they will surely be compensated by adding such titles to their dance CV and by teaching workshops.

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Dave Hancock
Agree with this totally and for the people who are winning these competitions, they will surely be compensated by adding such titles to their dance CV and by teaching workshops. Ummm. Not sure I agree Dave.

For some of the people in with a chance of winning - Clayton & Janine, James Geary & Lily? etc. - they don't teach (or very, very infrequently if they do), so winning a comp won't make any difference.

Or they are already so well known - Amir & Tas?, Viktor & ..., Mick & Cynty, etc. - that winning Blackpool isn't going to make much, if any, difference.

Although, for someone up and coming, it might make a difference - but I'm not sure that there's anyone in that position (maybe apart from Ben) that would actually stand a chance of winning one of the major competitions anyhow....

Having said that, I still agree that the prizes don't neccessarily need to be so big - it should all be about fun.

Steve

[LilyB]

Originally posted by Dave Hancock
... and for the people who are winning these competitions, they will surely be compensated by adding such titles to their dance CV and by teaching workshops. Hmmmm..... not necessarily. How often have you seen Clayton & Janine teach workshops?

As another example, the prize money for the up-coming Britroc competition is, I am aware, a major factor for some couples entering who would otherwise not have done so.

LilyB

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Dave Hancock
Agree with this totally and for the people who are winning these competitions, they will surely be compensated by adding such titles to their dance CV and by teaching workshops. Good joke. Just hiring a studio to practice costs £20 an hour in London, and we practice about 12 hours a week for several months before doing a routine. Then you have the costumes & shoes, the lessons we take, etc. Just going to Blackpool next year would cost us over £300 for the weekend package, entry fees & petrol.

I think we would have to teach workshops every weekend just to break even on what we spend on doing routines. But if we accepted every invitation we got to teach, we would do maybe one workshop every couple of months, and half of those don't pay.

I don't think any of the regular competitors do it for the money, and no-one makes a living from it. But the prize money does help, and is some recognition on the effort people put in.

David

[Sheepman]

I've just had a look at those Blackpool rules, as someone has already said, there is the airsteps competition, though this isn't really the same as an "Open" which limits how many big air steps you can do, and looks like becoming the "professionals" category.

The "below the waist" airsteps rule also seems to apply to the intermediate, seniors, and take a chance. Should be interesting!

Greg

[Emma]

Originally posted by DavidB
Nothing to do with aerials - just a separate category for the best dancers. Just to play devil's advocate for the moment...( :what: ) actually the Ceroc champs website rules state that the Open section is for 'advanced dancers who want to dance Ceroc with no holds barred' so I'd say it *was* set up as being no different to the Advanced, but with aerials allowed....(my goodness can't believe I'm disagreeing with David..:sorry )

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Emma
Just to play devil's advocate for the moment A definite improvement on Gus.

You are right. I should have remembered one couple who entered the Open at Hammersmith because it was the only way they could do any aerials. I was thinking of the Australian version, where it was for restricted to anyone who had previously placed in the Advanced or Showcase.

But in the end the Hammersmith Open category turned into a professional/past champions category. Interestingly, with the exception of the Australian couples, there were very few aerials done in the competition.

David

[Gus]

Originally posted by DavidB
A definite improvement on Gus.

David

You BOUNDER Sir ... first you doubt the veracity of my words then you allow some upstart to use my ODA title without complaint:tears:

All that aside, I'm not sure how it will change things. I still feel there is a but gulf between the stated aim of musical interpretation scoring and the impression that Big Moves win the day ... maybe this is just a creeping aknowledgement of that as being the truth ..... (Is that ODA enough Messr Oracle:wink: )

[Emma]

Originally posted by Gus
You BOUNDER Sir ... first you doubt the veracity of my words then you allow some upstart to use my ODA title without complaint:tears:What's a girl to do?? You haven't been around so much - so we had to come up with an ODA rota - it was my turn! :wink: :cheers:

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Gus
You BOUNDER Sir ... first you doubt the veracity of my words then you allow some upstart to use my ODA title without complaint But I wouldn't complain to Emma about anything. I thought you might be more upset with having another gorilla (Boomer) on the forum...

I still feel there is a but gulf between the stated aim of musical interpretation scoring and the impression that Big Moves win the day I think you may be right. Although in defence of the judges, I think they might not have enough time to see enough interpretation, whereas big moves are easy to spot. There is also the problem of 'interpreting the interpretation' - ie the judge may have completely different views on what constitutes musical interpretation to the competitor.
I may be in a better position to comment after this weekend.

Is that ODA enough Is it still ODA when I agree?

[Gus]

Originally posted by DavidB
.
Is it still ODA when I agree?

Ahhh Grasshopper, yet still true enlightenment evades you .... who said that was my main point:confused: :wink:

I think that moving away from the rigidity of one foot on the tarmac is good ... there are some really nice non-threatening moves that can be done involving a gentle lift BUT .... I bet you that there will now be a stream of couples working out just how far they can push this new freedom in order to get some flash moves in.

[Lounge Lizard]

Would it not work if the judges were able to mark on aerials/flash moves and musicality separately - e.g. max 3 points for musicality and max 3 points for ALL aerial moves in a routine, This would then put Ben who has near perfect musicality and Nicky (look mum I can Fly) Haslem on equal standing.
This would be in addition to current marking criteria, it just seems anyone with big moves has a clear advantage in some catagories/competitions
p

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
Would it not work if the judges were able to mark on aerials/flash moves and musicality separately - e.g. max 3 points for musicality and max 3 points for ALL aerial moves in a routine, This would work well if each couple danced individually. But with 6 couples on the floor, at best you would only see each couple for 1/6 of the time. So to be sure of getting your flash aerial move marked, you would have to do 6 per song.

Now in the final, what is wrong with getting each couple to dance individually?

[Lounge Lizard]

Originally posted by DavidB
This would work well if each couple danced individually. But with 6 couples on the floor, at best you would only see each couple for 1/6 of the time. So to be sure of getting your flash aerial move marked, you would have to do 6 per song.

Now in the final, what is wrong with getting each couple to dance individually?
but I thought the judges marked for five categories anyway, including costume, so why not have an extra category so that 'big moves' such as Nicky's (and yours of course) are given full credit, with the current criteria I am not sure how the 'big moves' are judged.
Individual finalist would be good but could drag out the competition and reduce freestyle time.:sad:

[David Franklin]

Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
but I thought the judges marked for five categories anyway, including costume, so why not have an extra category so that 'big moves' such as Nicky's (and yours of course) are given full credit, with the current criteria I am not sure how the 'big moves' are judged.The question with these categories is how do you combine them? If you add them together, and if you have specific marks for airsteps, then to be competitive, surely airsteps effectively become required - if you don't do them you're getting marked out of 83% while everyone else is marked out of 100%.

I think it would be hard to judge "normal dancing" under these restrictions, because there is currently a very big range of ability in airsteps amongst even the top dancers. It would be easy to either "crush" scores at the bottom end (so, say, David&Lily score 95% and nearly everyone else scores <20%), or at the top (so most people score 50-60%, but David&Lily can leave out half their moves and still score 95%).

Currently, similar questions apply with marks for costumes - some people make a lot of effort, some don't bother. I think someone said the blackpool rules imply an good dancer with a great costume will beat an excellent dancer with no costume. In practice I don't believe the judges do give marks that way.

Myself, I'm still quite keen on the "beginners moves only" category for the masters. Robert/Deborah did very little in the way of flash moves in their cabaret at Rebel Yell, and it seemed to go down alright...

Dave

[Lounge Lizard]

I agree David but at the moment the 'big moves' (not neccessarily aerials) are the attention grabbers, there is obviously a lot of effort put into developing them [I know that from experience] and getting them right on the night but I wondered if a marking system with them accounted for would balance things, I am not sure if it would be a good or bad thing, it was just an idea thrown into the ring:cheers:

[Gadget]

Originally posted by David Franklin
Currently, similar questions apply with marks for costumes - some people make a lot of effort, some don't bother. I think someone said the blackpool rules imply an good dancer with a great costume will beat an excellent dancer with no costume.
Not up to speed with this, but is there a seperate "Costume" score, or is it "Presentation" - which in my mind are two completley seperate things.

[David Franklin]

Originally posted by Gadget
Not up to speed with this, but is there a seperate "Costume" score, or is it "Presentation" - which in my mind are two completley seperate things. Your question caused me to go to the source, rather than my memory of someone else's quote...

From Chance 2 Dance Website with minor editing for HTML quirks
COSTUME / PRESENTATION (3 marks) - Dress, co-ordination with partner and overall presentation.

MUSICALITY / INTERPRETATION (5 marks)- Showmanship, personality, poise
The ability to dance to the rhythm, and character of the music.

TECHNIQUE (5 marks) - Floor craft, good pattern and direction, Good use of the floor, consideration to fellow competitors, Style.

VARIETY COMPLEXITY (5 marks)– Variation, difficulty and execution of moves. 1 - 5The costume score isn't as important as bad as I thought, though the categories are pretty vague. I'm guessing COSTUME/PRESENTATION is supposed to be fairly purely about "how you look" - makeup, costumes, etc. (given Showmanship, poise, execution fall into other categories), but it's hard to be sure.

Dave

[David Franklin]

Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
I agree David but at the moment the 'big moves' (not neccessarily aerials) are the attention grabbers, there is obviously a lot of effort put into developing them [I know that from experience] and getting them right on the night but I wondered if a marking system with them accounted for would balance things, I am not sure if it would be a good or bad thing, it was just an idea thrown into the ring:cheers: Believe me, I have a fairly good idea on how much pain & effort a lot of these moves take (2002 goes down as the year I spent more on physio than dancing :sick: ) I have a big conflict between two issues here:

(a) You can't do airsteps at a normal modern jive night. I think you should be able to compete in modern jive without having to know stuff from "outside" modern jive. So I don't think anyone should have to know aerials to compete.
(b) I like airsteps (when done well) - they are big crowd pleasers, they're fun, and they add drama that everyone can appreciate. And they take a lot of time, pain and effort to get right, and at some level that should be rewarded.

I'm not sure what's the best way of resolving the conflict. Personally, I'd like to see more options for doing showcase type routines - I think it's a great experience if you're only used to freestyle, and it's a good place to put in the big air moves. Only problem is who wants to watch it...?

Dave

[DavidB]

To me, unless the competition is specifically targetting them (like an Air Steps comp), big moves are already part of 'Musical Interpretation' and 'Complexity of Moves'. .

A flashy move, whether it be a lift, a drop, a multiple spin, etc should match something in the music. A big lift should go with a big highlight in the music. A sudden drop can hit a break. A slower drop might suit a gentler change in mood. Doing your big moves with the music would get credit in both criteria.

To do a big dramatic move that doesn't suit the music I think should be marked down in 'Musical Interpretation', but probably marked up in 'Complexity of Moves'. Overall you might come out equal, and probably tired. It seems to me like a lot of risk for no gain.

I would also expect to see some variety, particularly in freestyle. If every break was hit by a drop, I'd lose interest. If someone did non-stop complicated jive moves, I'd lose interest as well. I'd rather be thinking "What are they going to do next", rather than "Here comes another aerial". The best performances have a bit of everything - simple moves, complicated moves, improvisations, multiple spins, solo dancing, drops, lifts (if allowed), etc.

Packing a routine with non-stop aerials (like we did in Sydney) is an exercise in showing off to the audience, and the reward should be applause, not winning the competition.

David

[Geordieed]

wow!

[Dance Demon]

Originally posted by DavidB
.

To do a big dramatic move that doesn't suit the music I think should be marked down in 'Musical Interpretation', but probably marked up in 'Complexity of Moves'. Overall you might come out equal, and probably tired. It seems to me like a lot of risk for no gain.



Well said that man!!!!................Having sat and watched the Blackpool video, it ocurred to me, that a lot of people were doing moves that, although they were quite flash, or complicated, didn't fit the music being played, or were not in time with the music.
This happened more in the intermediate freestyle. One couple just did a whole series of dips,drops, seducers, none of which fitted the music. It looked like a case of " right, well we've practiced all of these flashy moves for ages now, and we're gonna do them regardless"......The advanced comp was much different, with most of the couples incorporating the moves into the music well. Personally, i would rather watch a couple dance less complicated moves well, than flashy moves badly i think i may have said this before, but if the number and technicality of flashy moves, was the most important thing, why bother playing music? Lets just have a technical competition to see who can execute the most moves in a set time period........then again maybe not:wink:

[Bill]

Agree with the comments made earlier in the thread about the difference to the comp by introducing the Open category.

In LOndon, as I think was said on another thread, the very best dancers moved up to the Open, and not many aerials, which made the Advanced more exciting and more 'open' in that it wasn't going to be C & J or one of the few others who could match them.:rolleyes:

I agree with Steve that if you're going down to an event you might as well enter something but I can imagine that for many folk the fact that they are unlikely to get through one round might put them off. I know that Fran and I didn't expect to get very far in the Advanced ( and we were right !!) but still decided to go ahead becuase it is a fun weekend. Knowing that the 'cream' of dancers are in an Open category might encourage a few more to enter and cough up a few more pounds.

Same old problems of course - is there enough time with all the heats ?; enough freestyle time; who should enter the Open and the Advanced etc......... The main reason I went to London this year was to see the Open category and was glad I did.

I like the idea of what amounts almost to 'mini aerials' as it's less likely to be dangerous and can introduce a few more interesting moves.

But I still think there has to be very clear guidelines about who can compete in each category ( although this is beset with all sorts of problems) as Steve has pointed out elsewhere - the Scottish comp appears to allow non-professionally trained teachers to compete in the Advanced and there's been miles written about when and who should enter the Intermediate rather than the advanced.

As David says, it might still be fun and for titles but it's an expensive 'hobby'. Hiring a venue and practising would be great but Fran is in Aberdeen this week so we hope to go through some moves so we don't look like complete twats come Saturday :sick: :rolleyes:

[Roger C]

Hi Guys,

Have you seen the debate going on down under on Ange's newspage about ariels and musicallity www.ceroc.co.nz

[Dave Hancock]

Can anyone find Ange's newspage on this site, if so can you perhaps let me know where to find it.

[Divissima]

I couldn't find it either... Maybe you have to subscribe to her newsletter?

[Roger C]

At the top of the web page there is where you need to click on to join the newsletter.

[Sheepman]

Roger,
Could you quote some of the relevant bits of the debate? - I don't really want to subscribe to yet another dance org, especially when I don't have another trip to NZ planned. :sad:

Greg

[David Franklin]

Originally posted by Sheepman
Roger,
Could you quote some of the relevant bits of the debate? - I don't really want to subscribe to yet another dance org, especially when I don't have another trip to NZ planned. :sad:
Also, subscribing just gets the current newsletter - it would be good to see the earlier ones.

I suspect for politeness' sake, someone should ask the NZ people for permission before cut and pasting the newsletter. Can't see them minding though...

Dave

[Bill]

Originally posted by DavidB

Packing a routine with non-stop aerials (like we did in Sydney) is an exercise in showing off to the audience, and the reward should be applause, not winning the competition.

David

Completely agree ( again !). Fran said something similar recently - that she was watching a couple do some really great and flashy moves but there were so many she got bored and stopped looking. There was no variety and no great musical interpretation but anyone looking briefly would see one a a number of very flash moves which would be great for some comps.


I like to see some aerials when they are safe and executed well which rules out most freestyle nights :rolleyes: Everyone can see and possibly appreciate a big move but it's the more subtle moves and dancing that I most enjoy eg the little moves and gestures from someone like Davidb and Nigel and the style of Viktor.