PDA

View Full Version : leaders & followers



dep
3rd-February-2008, 05:22 PM
A couple of female partners have suggested that I could improve my technique by practicing following. Both to feel what it's like to have to follow and to learn what the leader has to do to make it easier/enjoyable for a follower.
I have asked a few men what they think of the idea and all with an intake of breath said "I don't think the others would like that".

Should I ignore their feelings and join the followers in a few beginners' classes or select the very few men who currently do reverse role dancing?

Andy McGregor
3rd-February-2008, 06:25 PM
As one of the guys who has been dancing with guys for longer than most I recommend that you do NOT line up as a follower.

There is a certain personality type amongst men who really, REALLY don't like dancing with other men. They don't even like to see it! I've no idea why they are like this but guess that they confuse dancing with sex. Whatever their reason, you can not change how they feel and should avoid any situation where they are put in a position of having to dance with you. This includes lining up with the women as a follower. I've done it and guys were scared - it's only a short step from fear to aggression and you shouldn't put another guy in that position.

My advice, if you want to learn to follow is to find a like minded guy and work it out between you. But never judge another guy because he won't dance with you.

David Bailey
3rd-February-2008, 06:45 PM
A couple of female partners have suggested that I could improve my technique by practicing following. Both to feel what it's like to have to follow and to learn what the leader has to do to make it easier/enjoyable for a follower.
Absolutely true, you find that in Tango a lot. AT is full of histories of men practicing dancing with men, and no-one's ever accused AT dancers of being wussy girlie girls.

I very rarely dance with men - I mean, why would I, they're mostly ugly and smelly - but learning to follow is definitely a good skill when trying to im"prove your own lead. Typically you see a lot of problems from the other side, and realise "Ooops, I do that..."

All that said:

have asked a few men what they think of the idea and all with an intake of breath said "I don't think the others would like that".

Should I ignore their feelings and join the followers in a few beginners' classes or select the very few men who currently do reverse role dancing?
No.. As Andy says, you'll have problems in a regular MJ class with that, you'll no doubt encounter some attitude from some men. I'd avoid trying it.

Another possibility - you could find a woman who wants to learn how to lead (for a similar reason), and practice with her as fixed partners?

Jhutch
3rd-February-2008, 06:57 PM
Another possibility - you could find a woman who wants to learn how to lead (for a similar reason), and practice with her as fixed partners?

Why not just find a woman who can already lead (assuming you know one who can?) and let her lead you?:) Might even learn some new moves:blush:

martingold
3rd-February-2008, 09:13 PM
Why not just find a woman who can already lead (assuming you know one who can?) and let her lead you?:) Might even learn some new moves:blush:
:yeah:
Funny you say this as it is exactly what i am in the process of doing
being a taxi dancer i feel it is essential that i learn to follow as well as lead
also i have seen some couples who swap about during one dance which looks really great albeit unusual
and i agree with david james again :eek: blokes are smelly and ugly so why would i want to dance with one whereas virtually all ladies are lovely in their own way

Jhutch
3rd-February-2008, 11:23 PM
Funny you say this as it is exactly what i am in the process of doing
being a taxi dancer i feel it is essential that i learn to follow as well as lead
also i have seen some couples who swap about during one dance which looks really great albeit unusual


Yes, in the taxi dancer thread a few days ago someone said that taxi dancers should be fairly new so that they still remembered what it was like to learn. I thought then that a male taxi dancer may be more useful if he was learning to follow - surely he would be more used to learning and better able to understand why a beginner woman was going wrong? I know that the first few times i tried following i found myself having problems with the same things as beginner follows do.

dep
4th-February-2008, 12:04 AM
Thanks for the comments. A few things to think about.

There are a group of female leaders I could use and a few men that already practice reverse roles. Maybe join/use them is the more sensitive thing to do.
But the disadvantage of that is missing the naff leads that many men have and that I probably need to feel to help get rid of any habits I have developed.

David Bailey
4th-February-2008, 09:03 AM
But the disadvantage of that is missing the naff leads that many men have and that I probably need to feel to help get rid of any habits I have developed.
Yes, which is why I suggested finding a woman who wants to learn to lead, as opposed to a woman who can lead already.

Realistically, you're not learning to follow because you want to be a follower in social dancing - it's purely a learning exercise to help your leading. So going through as much "pain" as possible will be the best approach, because it'll provide you with the most information.

Astro
4th-February-2008, 11:05 AM
Yes, which is why I suggested finding a woman who wants to learn to lead, as opposed to a woman who can lead already.

Realistically, you're not learning to follow because you want to be a follower in social dancing - it's purely a learning exercise to help your leading. So going through as much "pain" as possible will be the best approach, because it'll provide you with the most information.

Plus all the male teachers have to learn to follow to pass their exams.

(and the female teachers have to learn to lead).

David Bailey
4th-February-2008, 11:20 AM
Plus all the male teachers have to learn to follow to pass their exams.

(and the female teachers have to learn to lead).
Do they?

If you're referring to CTA, I thought they just had to learn a set of specific movements for specific moves - not exactly the same thing.

jeanie
4th-February-2008, 11:25 AM
Another possibility - you could find a woman who wants to learn how to lead (for a similar reason), and practice with her as fixed partners?
I'm currently learning to lead and I think yesterday at the workshop one lady didn't particulary enjoy dancing with a lead lady... Don't thikn she appreciated that I had only been doing it for a few weeks and I am struggling with tension.

My point is - eventually!- I was told ladies can sometimes make better leads as they know how it feels like to have a 'good' lead and a 'bad' lead so they know how to avoid 'bad habits'.

If you want to follow then I say go for it, it has certainly made me appreciate the lead alot more, and hopefully has improved my following.. :blush:

Andy McGregor
4th-February-2008, 11:29 AM
Plus all the male teachers have to learn to follow to pass their exams.

(and the female teachers have to learn to lead).What exams? :confused:

Astro
4th-February-2008, 12:01 PM
Do they?

If you're referring to CTA, I thought they just had to learn a set of specific movements for specific moves - not exactly the same thing.


What exams? :confused:

yes, CTA.

I bow to your greater knowledges. :blush:

Not as rigorous as I thought, then, to be a teacher. :innocent:

David Bailey
4th-February-2008, 12:21 PM
yes, CTA.

I bow to your greater knowledges. :blush:
Oh good, I like bows :)


Not as rigorous as I thought, then, to be a teacher. :innocent:
From what I understand, the CTA is very intense, and is very difficult. And even the audition process is a nightmare to get through - you've got to get sponsored and pass an interview.

But it doesn't (AIUI) focus on dance technique, it teaches you how to teach a Ceroc class. So there's a lot of memorizing of scripts, of learning and practicing the exact sequences and placements, and so on.

So you wouldn't learn to lead, or to follow.

But then, short of Franck's classes, you won't learn that anywhere in MJ anyway.

Andy McGregor
4th-February-2008, 01:33 PM
But then, short of Franck's classes, you won't learn that anywhere in MJ anyway.Ahem! :innocent:

On the subject of exams, there is only one teaching exam in MJ. That's the LeRoc Federation/UKA exam. In that exam you do get asked what the man and the woman does and you need to demonstrate a knowledge of both lead and follow. You don't get asked to actually swap roles though.

On the subject of who to learn with. My recommendation is to learn to follow with a person who usually leads - and vice versa. This is like learning French from a person who has it as their first language. The problem with a man and a woman swapping roles is that they often fail to swap footwork. It works when they swap roles but fails to teach you to do it properly. Guys following need to start to think RLRL where they used to think nothing and just do what comes naturally - which is often LRLR. Failing to change footwork means that you will be on the wrong foot for the turns and returns.

Andy McGregor
4th-February-2008, 01:35 PM
And even the audition process is a nightmare to get through And there was me thinking you just had to look good in a vest :whistle:

Martin
4th-February-2008, 01:52 PM
A couple of female partners have suggested that I could improve my technique by practicing following. Both to feel what it's like to have to follow and to learn what the leader has to do to make it easier/enjoyable for a follower.
I have asked a few men what they think of the idea and all with an intake of breath said "I don't think the others would like that".

Should I ignore their feelings and join the followers in a few beginners' classes or select the very few men who currently do reverse role dancing?

It is great that you are taking on board comments on how to improve :respect:

Having tried most combinations of ideas, I would suggest you find an experienced male lead (that the female partners you mention enjoy dancing with), who is happy to help.

Good luck and good on you for wanting to improve :waycool:

Aurion
4th-February-2008, 08:28 PM
As one of the guys who has been dancing with guys for longer than most I recommend that you do NOT line up as a follower.

There is a certain personality type amongst men who really, REALLY don't like dancing with other men.

:yeah: We don't want to frighten away all the potential new leads!



My advice, if you want to learn to follow is to find a like minded guy and work it out between you.

I prefer to find another willing male lead and do the classes outwith the normal rotation. HOWEVER, I'll only do this if there are evenish numbers or an excess of males. I'm sure the last thing the 10+ extra lovely ladies want to see, is a couple of available males keeping separate!

Next time time the class is like this give me a shout, I'm always happy to assist :grin:


Thanks for the comments. A few things to think about.

There are a group of female leaders I could use and a few men that already practice reverse roles. Maybe join/use them is the more sensitive thing to do.
But the disadvantage of that is missing the naff leads that many men have and that I probably need to feel to help get rid of any habits I have developed.

I've got loads of naff leads I need to practice, so this could work out quite well :whistle:

dep
4th-February-2008, 09:38 PM
I prefer to find another willing male lead and do the classes outwith the normal rotation. HOWEVER, I'll only do this if there are .......an excess of males.....
Next time time the class is like this give me a shout, I'm always happy to assist.............I've got loads of naff leads I need to practiceThanks, Now I can add you to the list and know who you are. Steve, Gary but not Luca who's always demo during beginners classes.

MartinHarper
4th-February-2008, 11:14 PM
I'd recommend asking the teacher before rotating as a follow in a beginner class. They are best placed to decide how their students will react and whether they are willing to risk turning off other potential new customers for your benefit. Additionally, they themselves may not be comfortable teaching a male follow. If they say no, accept this gracefully. They probably have good reasons, and others have suggested good alternatives on this thread. If they say yes, be gentle and understanding with the guys. Try to start with someone who's lead you before, and try to pick a night when there are relatively even numbers.

jive-vee
4th-February-2008, 11:23 PM
On a similar note, at Southport I noticed quite a few fab female leads and was tempted to ask them to lead me but decided against it in the end as I thought maybe they were only comfortable with/choosing to lead their friends.

What is the etiquette here :confused: I know in theory unless you ask them you won't know if they'll mind leading you but a knock-back is still a knock-back so I stuck to asking men.

dep
5th-February-2008, 06:02 PM
I would only pick a night that starts with excess males. Edinburgh has had quite a few Tuesdays like that recently. Mustn't antogonise my later partners in the intermediate and free.

MartinHarper
5th-February-2008, 07:36 PM
I would only pick a night that starts with excess males. Edinburgh has had quite a few Tuesdays like that recently.

One thing you may find is that if there are excess males, then most of the women who can lead will be following, so you may be the only person doing the class in the opposite role. If the numbers are more balanced, such that some women are leading, that might assist in acceptance.
Just a thought, anyway.

dave the scaffolder
5th-February-2008, 07:47 PM
I dance as a leader or a follower.

My best dance at Southport was with Martin Harper, a truly amazing follower.

If any of you guys want me to lead you just ask, I will be more than happy to lead you, or follow your lead.

The way i learnt was to step out of the rotation and stay fixed with Trouble tnen when I cracked it I would often ask men or women to lead me, I have been refused a couple of times but some men just cannot handle it, you must accept that .

Good luck to you all.

If you let me know where you dance Trouble and I will try to make it there one night and lead or follow as you wish.

DTS Dave XXX XXX

JennyC
5th-February-2008, 07:54 PM
On a similar note, at Southport I noticed quite a few fab female leads and was tempted to ask them to lead me but decided against it in the end as I thought maybe they were only comfortable with/choosing to lead their friends.

What is the etiquette here :confused: I know in theory unless you ask them you won't know if they'll mind leading you but a knock-back is still a knock-back so I stuck to asking men.


I only do a small amount of Jive and WCS leading, which I learnt mainly out of frustation when a good track comes on and there's no men left!!

I do tend to have friends that I dance with because I feel confident that I can mess up and they won't care - but I did brave a few newbies this weekend at SP - it's great leading girls as you can steal all their best styling tips and use them when you follow :wink::D. Still not brave enough to ask Naomi - but definitely will next time.

I would say go for it - if asked my reaction would be to say yes but I would get my "I'm not very good at this leading milarkey" disclaimer in first so your expectations wouldn't be too high!

Going slightly off thread and back to the dance related insults thread - one of the biggest compliments to get, in my opinion, is to be asked by a man to dance (as they have so little choice as more often than not they are accosted first) so by the same token to be asked by a lady would give me the same boost to by dancing ability/confidence.

So in short- just go ahead and ask - there are some great female leads out there :respect:(and some like me - who like a good laugh at themselves!!)

Jenny

CheesyRobMan
23rd-February-2008, 12:29 AM
I've started following just recently although all my leads have been female - had one dance with Jamie at a formal a couple of a months ago but I chickened out and led that one (and probably not very well because my brain was going "wait a moment, isn't the other person supposed to be female?!"). It definitely helps to find out what it feels like to follow the beginners' moves especially as I've started taxying too, and like a number of people have said it is very useful for finding out what it feels like to be led well and sometimes not so well! I actually like following, it's good fun to do something different, but probably not to the extent where I'd want to spend a whole evening doing it. I got told to wiggle last week by Drathzel (who usually leads me) though... that's a whole different area of expertise and one which I can only aspire to - I've got nothing to wiggle with!

Miss Lead
23rd-February-2008, 09:58 AM
Ahem! :innocent:

On the subject of who to learn with. My recommendation is to learn to follow with a person who usually leads - and vice versa. This is like learning French from a person who has it as their first language. The problem with a man and a woman swapping roles is that they often fail to swap footwork. It works when they swap roles but fails to teach you to do it properly. Guys following need to start to think RLRL where they used to think nothing and just do what comes naturally - which is often LRLR. Failing to change footwork means that you will be on the wrong foot for the turns and returns.

I really agree with this, I've been leading for a little while and although my moves aren't all flashy ones my partners usually seem pleased with my efforts. I can't do many intermediate moves as they require me to change footwork and I don't think I'm ready for that yet.

There are some people that just don't want to dance with somone of the same sex but feel they shouldn't refuse so after a couple of 'those looks' I go back to my usual partners who I know are happy to follow me. The trouble then is that you go through the same old moves each time and they know what's coming next. *note to self - pretend to be more confident*

It really does help your own lead/follow if you find out what it's like from the other side.

Flat_Eric
27th-February-2008, 10:25 AM
I started learning to follow about 18 months ago, being led by males and females. This was the next level, really, the moment where I realised how much more there was to discover about MJ.

Avoid joining the followers' line at lessons. I tried that once at a beinners class and don't recommend the experience: guys in the line get scared, uncomfortable, angry. Rather do the lesson on the side with a chosen partner.Even during freestyle, feedback can be interesting. I had my last male / male dance last week at Hammersmith (switching roles from time to time) and some of the looks we got were... a bit judgemental, to say the least.

Important point: except for extremely rare exceptions, learn to follow with a female lead is a radically different experience from doing the same with a guy.

How to best explain this?

- Female leads opened my eyes to some moves that I didn't really use, and got me to understand that they valued / enjoyed the move a lot more than I thought they would. An example would be Nelson variations. Watch a woman lead, there will be a good number of these pretty much every single time.

Understand how a move feels on the receiving end is an opportunity for you to make your dance richer in sensations when you're back to leading

- Male leads made me realise that there are many ways to leading. The difference in the arm tension, the eye and othe non verbal commands, the fact that some guys tell you what move to do next, is an amazing discovery, with the chance to borrow and reuse some of the learnings for yourself

dep
27th-February-2008, 11:49 AM
Important point: except for extremely rare exceptions, learn to follow with a female lead is a radically different experience from doing the same with a guy.

How to best explain this?

- Female leads opened my eyes to some moves that I didn't really use, and got me to understand that they valued / enjoyed the move a lot more than I thought they would. An example would be Nelson variations. Watch a woman lead, there will be a good number of these pretty much every single time.

Understand how a move feels on the receiving end is an opportunity for you to make your dance richer in sensations when you're back to leading

- Male leads made me realise that there are many ways to leading. The difference in the arm tension, the eye and the non verbal commands, the fact that some guys tell you what move to do next, is an amazing discovery, with the chance to borrow and reuse some of the learnings for yourselfI had not realised the difference in being led by male and female would be so apparent. I particularly wanted to be led by males so that I could try to emulate and/or eliminate their good /bad leads.
Now, I will have to try both.
All your other observations are exactly what I hope to achieve.

Steven666
27th-February-2008, 12:25 PM
A couple of female partners have suggested that I could improve my technique by practicing following. Both to feel what it's like to have to follow and to learn what the leader has to do to make it easier/enjoyable for a follower.
I have asked a few men what they think of the idea and all with an intake of breath said "I don't think the others would like that".

Should I ignore their feelings and join the followers in a few beginners' classes or select the very few men who currently do reverse role dancing?

Very few men do, do it. Very annoying. :angry::angry::angry::angry::angry:

Don't join the classes though. People are too uptight about it.

Find a female who's practicing leading and stay as a fixed couple. That's what I've been doing for the last few weeks.

But remember there's no harm in asking men to dance. They have the option to say no.

killingtime
27th-February-2008, 02:50 PM
(About following in rotation) No.. As Andy says, you'll have problems in a regular MJ class with that, you'll no doubt encounter some attitude from some men. I'd avoid trying it.

Agreed; I wouldn't consider following in rotation. A lot of guys just wouldn't be happy with it.


and i agree with david james again :eek: blokes are smelly and ugly so why would i want to dance with one whereas virtually all ladies are lovely in their own way

Well; because a lot of the best leads out there are men so, if you fancy following one of them then, you'll need to ask a man. I prefer following with guys since the reverse is true and generally women are better followers but I understand that that's probably true for most guys so I'm happy to lead around 50% of the time :D.


I prefer to find another willing male lead and do the classes outwith the normal rotation. HOWEVER, I'll only do this if there are evenish numbers or an excess of males. I'm sure the last thing the 10+ extra lovely ladies want to see, is a couple of available males keeping separate!

Indeed. However I would recommend following in freestyle more than following in class. In class you are more prone to doing what leads learning to follow often do lots anyway which is backlead and anticipate. Still classes can be used as a method for learning technique such as returning on the spot etc.


Thanks, Now I can add you to the list and know who you are. Steve, Gary but not Luca who's always demo during beginners classes.

Who's Steve :confused:?


My best dance at Southport was with Martin Harper, a truly amazing follower.

Ah, mine was with Jamie (a truly amazing follower too)... I'm beginning to see a trend here.

I find I don't get to follow as much as I like. Unlike dep I'm more interested in following because I enjoy it rather than following because I want to improve my lead (though, dep, you never know; you might find the same)... though it is a secondary goal. Not being in control of the dance and just being guided around the floor is a completely different experience than leading and can be really nice.

CJ
27th-February-2008, 03:53 PM
Thanks, Now I can add you to the list and know who you are. Steve, Gary but not Luca who's always demo during beginners classes.


Am in, dep...

dep
27th-February-2008, 03:58 PM
Am in, dep...thank you.
Just waiting for a night with an excess of leaders.

StokeBloke
27th-February-2008, 07:19 PM
Am in, dep...:yeah: me too. If you see me, ask me. I'm more than happy to dance with guys - and once I know who you are I'll be able to ask you back :D

dep
27th-February-2008, 07:30 PM
:yeah: me too. If you see me, ask me. I'm more than happy to dance with guys - and once I know who you are I'll be able to ask you back :Dwhile I'm in training, yes.
But, don't even think about standing in for my next female partner. I will be rude enough to refuse.

Steven666
27th-February-2008, 11:47 PM
:yeah: me too. If you see me, ask me. I'm more than happy to dance with guys - and once I know who you are I'll be able to ask you back :D

Does that include me? :flower:

Jamie
28th-February-2008, 12:11 AM
while I'm in training, yes.
But, don't even think about standing in for my next female partner. I will be rude enough to refuse.

What's that all about? Seriously.

Are you that good a dancer that, naturally, every guy will want to lead you at some point?

"While I'm in training, yes." - I suppose you're the one doing Stokie the favour eh?

I wouldn't be able to follow today were it not for kind people like Stokie who looked above the fact that I'm a male dancer trying to follow. It makes me mad when people throw it back in their face. did it occur to you that these few male dancers could (and should after reading that) themselves turn you down for a female dancer. You ain't that special mate. :flower:

StokeBloke
28th-February-2008, 12:44 AM
Does that include me? :flower:Of course, you can even back lead, hijack and sabotage if you like :wink:

Lory
28th-February-2008, 01:22 AM
I lead three whole dances of WCS tonight! :waycool::D

They were pretty rubbish but hey, its a start! :na:

Sparkles, your a lovely follow, as well as a lovely lead! :worthy:

robd
28th-February-2008, 09:32 AM
The way i learnt was to step out of the rotation and stay fixed with Trouble tnen when I cracked it

So you know all there is to know about following then DTS? Maybe you could share it with some of the ladies on here :whistle:

I do wonder why this topic of same sex dancing gets aired on here so frequently :confused:

One thing I would throw in from my experience, both leading men occasionally and seeing others do it is that it tends to be the more experienced and accomplished leaders who are willing to lead other men thus the experience of the male being led (happy, DJ?) is not entirely similar to that of the average follower at an average night (and don't even get started on the definition of average there - you know what I am trying to say)

Jamie is the most accomplished male follower I have lead in MJ and Paul Warden likewise in WCS - the fact that they follow very frequently and have a good competence in doing so is probably no coincidence :grin:

Steven666
28th-February-2008, 09:48 AM
Of course, you can even back lead, hijack and sabotage if you like :wink:

Though none of it will be on purpose! :blush:

David Bailey
28th-February-2008, 09:49 AM
I do wonder why this topic of same sex dancing gets aired on here so frequently :confused:
Dunno, but I assume it's a sex thing. So to speak :)

I imagine that the Trampy-Jamie Champs thing will also get tongues wagging, or whatever the online equivalent of that is...


One thing I would throw in from my experience, both leading men occasionally and seeing others do it is that it tends to be the more experienced and accomplished leaders who are willing to lead other men
In practica situations, I'm very happy to learn with other men - it's extremely useful. And it's very Tango, of course. All I need now is a couple of knives :grin:

But I'm not usually keen to social-dance with other men, I generally prefer dancing with women. Call me crazy on that one.


(happy, DJ?)
Yep - and I've made an exception to my rule of "unless it's Lory doing it" :flower:

Smiley Sue
28th-February-2008, 09:56 AM
the fact that some guys tell you what move to do next, is an amazing discovery

It was amazing to me too when I first experienced this:eek:
Whatever you do, don't reuse this idea!
AFAIC, if you can't lead it without saying something, don't lead it!!
I lose confidence in a lead who has to give me tips, the prompt can actually be distracting enough that I don't follow the next move well, or I am offended that the lead thinks I cannot follow properly - none of these are good for connection I think you'll agree.

Idle Mind
28th-February-2008, 10:20 AM
It was amazing to me too when I first experienced this:eek:
Whatever you do, don't reuse this idea!
AFAIC, if you can't lead it without saying something, don't lead it!!


I don't know, as a pretty much beginner, sometimes this can work. Only danced once with someone who kept telling me what to do the whole. That didn't work, especially when he tried using the names of the moves - names! pfft, that's for the leads to worry about ;) But I have danced with a few good dancers who generally keep things relatively simple (or so it seems for me) but occasionally (like once a dance) throw in something that needs a prompt. Lets me feel like I can dance better than I can :)

Steven666
28th-February-2008, 10:22 AM
It was amazing to me too when I first experienced this:eek:
Whatever you do, don't reuse this idea!
AFAIC, if you can't lead it without saying something, don't lead it!!
I lose confidence in a lead who has to give me tips, the prompt can actually be distracting enough that I don't follow the next move well, or I am offended that the lead thinks I cannot follow properly - none of these are good for connection I think you'll agree.

Tunnels. However you try to get the follower to lose height to go through, it doesn't always work, especially if you only do the tunnel where they are walking backwards without the forwards tunnel preceeding it. There's one move I've started using a backwards tunnel only where a shout of D U C K ! helps no end (though I only say it with people I know well, otherwise I say nowt). Though for good followers, I needn't say owt anyways.

ducasi
28th-February-2008, 11:49 AM
Tunnels. However you try to get the follower to lose height to go through, it doesn't always work, especially if you only do the tunnel where they are walking backwards without the forwards tunnel preceeding it. There's one move I've started using a backwards tunnel only where a shout of D U C K ! helps no end (though I only say it with people I know well, otherwise I say nowt). Though for good followers, I needn't say owt anyways.
My rule is if I can't lead it well enough for this particular follower to follow it, I don't do it at all.

Steven666
28th-February-2008, 11:54 AM
My rule is if I can't lead it well enough for this particular follower to follow it, I don't do it at all.

Is mine too. But I have to try it once to see if they take to the bait.

But if I lead it identically to two different followers who I haven't done it with before, one follows it and one doesn't, is it the fact that I can't "lead it well enough"?

Lory
28th-February-2008, 12:17 PM
I do wonder why this topic of same sex dancing gets aired on here so frequently :confused:

I don't know, last night (at WCS) there were several ladies having a go at leading and several men following, so it seems to be getting more and more popular.

So maybe its no longer discussed because its a subject of taboo, maybe its discussed just because its a popular topic of interest. Refreshing huh :nice:


Yep - and I've made an exception to my rule of "unless it's Lory doing it" :flower:
:blush::hug:

killingtime
28th-February-2008, 12:22 PM
Jamie is the most accomplished male follower I have lead in MJ and Paul Warden likewise in WCS - the fact that they follow very frequently and have a good competence in doing so is probably no coincidence :grin:

This is actually a bit of a problem for me; I'd like to follow more but I don't really get much of a chance. If I get to follow once or twice during a freestyle then I'm doing pretty well. If I think about all the times I've followed I still wonder if I'm up to even 3 freestyle nights worth of following.


AFAIC, if you can't lead it without saying something, don't lead it!!

I've actually tried to move more to Derren Brown's mind impression technique where I try and think really hard about what I want the follower to do and implant that idea in the followers' mind.

I don't really think I've encountered a lead that has told me what to do but then, as robd said, most men I've followed are experienced leads.


But I have danced with a few good dancers who generally keep things relatively simple (or so it seems for me) but occasionally (like once a dance) throw in something that needs a prompt. Lets me feel like I can dance better than I can :)

What sort of prompt are we talking about? If some said "duck" to me the first thing that would enter into my head would be to reply "quack" (I'm really mature like that) after a tenth of a second of considering and rejecting that I'd probably have another couple of tenths of seconds pondering the command (rather than trying to listen to the lead I'm getting through any connection and such)... possibly another few tenths of a second later I'd finally start to get my muscles to react to the command. At probably over half a second reaction time am I following way too late?

...

Moving quickly OTT: Now I come to think about it I do use a verbal lead :eek:! I've do it in double trouble when I can't convince my followers to do the circle thang by holding hands. Does anyone know any way except for "the signal" or a verbal lead to do this or are we back in Derren Brown territory? Or would you just suggest that the circle thing is pants anyway and I shouldn't even bother to lead it?

David Bailey
28th-February-2008, 12:28 PM
Tunnels.
:eek:


However you try to get the follower to lose height to go through, it doesn't always work
Well, you could always chop their heads off. Or, possibly, don't inflict it on followers who are that tall?


Though for good followers, I needn't say owt anyways.
To be honest, this sounds like a classic case of not being able to lead the move well enough. I used to say "duck" for leading the duck comb whatsit a few years ago, but then I managed to get good enough at leading it so I didn't need a shout a warning. Ummm, and then I stopped leading it, for some reason... :confused:

Anyway, obviously, you need to practice the more difficult-to-lead moves, but bear in mind - the reason you need to shout "duck" is not because the followers are rubbish, but because your lead isn't as good as it could be. Good followers will be able to compensate for a poor lead, which is why it works with them and not others.

On that note, here's what Amir said (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/intermediate-corner/12964-leading-columbian-5.html#post386742) about this sort of thing (in relation to the Columbian):

I was once following a guy and he said 'Columbian!'
I said 'no, New Zealand actually, but I do use sun beds a lot.' I was pleased he had noticed my dark smooth tan, and forgot all about it.

But years later, when I saw Pablo Veron leading the 'Columbian' (the last move they do just before it cuts to the 'cafe' scene) you can clearly see him whisper the word just before they start. So you can imagine my embarrassment when I remembered my unwitting faux pas all those years before!

YouTube - "The tango lesson" http://taxidancer.blogspot.com (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiK4VU0s_5E)

But luckily, my pride was saved, when yet later I discovered you can lead this move without any verbalage whatsoever, (Pablo never made it to that class!) and many variations besides!

You can lead it with one hand even.

I recommend it. It leaves the other hand free to brush away any flailing curly locks. Plus, it doesn’t require the follower to memorise names of moves or capitals of states.

A good way to lead it is to use ‘frame’. Just shout 'frame' a few counts before trying to lead the move. (or see the related thread.)

:D

David Bailey
28th-February-2008, 12:34 PM
I've actually tried to move more to Derren Brown's mind impression technique where I try and think really hard about what I want the follower to do and implant that idea in the followers' mind.
Seriously, this is a great tip - I heard that a few months back, and it's superb, I wish I'd learnt it years ago :tears:

The idea is that if you confidently visualise exactly where you want your follower to be, your body will naturally adjust to give out signals of "go there" or whatever, and your follower will react to those signals. It's the sort of thing like looking in the direction where you want your partner to go to next.

It's magic, basically. Well, not actually magic. But it's still a good tip.

Steven666
28th-February-2008, 01:00 PM
*stuff*

You are right and I have worked on it as is always the case when I add a move to my existing set. It was when I was first doing it, I had to shout duck (to compensate for my crappiness). Now I seldom do, if ever. :D

Steven666
28th-February-2008, 01:02 PM
Seriously, this is a great tip - I heard that a few months back, and it's superb, I wish I'd learnt it years ago :tears:

The idea is that if you confidently visualise exactly where you want your follower to be, your body will naturally adjust to give out signals of "go there" or whatever, and your follower will react to those signals. It's the sort of thing like looking in the direction where you want your partner to go to next.

It's magic, basically. Well, not actually magic. But it's still a good tip.

Made a whole lot easier when in slot I'd have to say. I'm trying to slot-ise my dancing atm and I must say I'm prefering it. Though I only do it with follows who like it slotted (& I don't know that many who do).

ducasi
28th-February-2008, 02:12 PM
But if I lead it identically to two different followers who I haven't done it with before, one follows it and one doesn't, is it the fact that I can't "lead it well enough"?
That's for you to decide. I can usually tell when a mistake is due to my bad leading, rather than her bad following. But, as we know, it's always the leader's fault. If the follower can't do follow something, the leader shouldn't have led it.

ducasi
28th-February-2008, 02:16 PM
The idea is that if you confidently visualise exactly where you want your follower to be, your body will naturally adjust to give out signals of "go there" or whatever, and your follower will react to those signals. It's the sort of thing like looking in the direction where you want your partner to go to next.
Hmm... I guess I sort-of do that. Never thought about it in those terms. Must try some experiments...

Little Monkey
28th-February-2008, 02:25 PM
On a similar note, at Southport I noticed quite a few fab female leads and was tempted to ask them to lead me but decided against it in the end as I thought maybe they were only comfortable with/choosing to lead their friends.

What is the etiquette here :confused: I know in theory unless you ask them you won't know if they'll mind leading you but a knock-back is still a knock-back so I stuck to asking men.

I danced with a lot of other females at Southport, both as a lead and a follow. I even asked a girl I've never danced with before (Tor?), because I've seen her lead before (and she looks fab), and I've heard other followers (both male and female) rave about her lead. And I have to agree, she's a fantastic lead! :respect: Another of my favourite leads is Sparkles, always enjoy my dances with her, such a wonderful dancer. In fact, these two girls are right up there with the best of the male leads. Most men could learn a lot from watching/dancing with them...

I do get asked by other females to dance quite frequently - even by strangers from time to time - and I take this as a huge compliment. I was leading another female dancer last week, and remember apologizing for my lack of moves, and she told me off, saying: 'You know it's not the number of different moves that makes a great dance, it's how you perform them, and how you interpret the music, and you do that very well!' (or something along those lines). :D

Oh, and DJ, why oh why did you have to post that quote by Amir, containing the link to 'the tango lesson'? I want to learn tango!!!!! I am so frustrated with not being able to go to tango classes!!!! Thanks a lot, mate... :wink:

Steven666
28th-February-2008, 03:18 PM
That's for you to decide. I can usually tell when a mistake is due to my bad leading, rather than her bad following. But, as we know, it's always the leader's fault. If the follower can't do follow something, the leader shouldn't have led it.

And so all followers are perfect in every way! :na:

David Bailey
28th-February-2008, 03:47 PM
Oh, and DJ, why oh why did you have to post that quote by Amir, containing the link to 'the tango lesson'? I want to learn tango!!!!! I am so frustrated with not being able to go to tango classes!!!! Thanks a lot, mate... :wink:
Well, it's not my fault you live in Scotland - come down to London with everyone else, that's my advice. :wink:

Little Monkey
28th-February-2008, 03:57 PM
Well, it's not my fault you live in Scotland - come down to London with everyone else, that's my advice. :wink:

Why don't you all just come up here instead? :wink:
Actually, we do have a rather good tango couple teaching up here, too (Jenny and Ricardo). Unfortunately they're in Edinburgh, and I don't have a car.

I really need to get myself down to London again for some dancing sometime soon..... Too long to wait until Southport to dance with all my favourite dancers again....

Lory
28th-February-2008, 04:15 PM
And so all followers are perfect in every way! :na:
No, only 'some' of us :innocent:

Idle Mind
28th-February-2008, 04:17 PM
What sort of prompt are we talking about? If some said "duck" to me the first thing that would enter into my head would be to reply "quack" (I'm really mature like that) after a tenth of a second of considering and rejecting that I'd probably have another couple of tenths of seconds pondering the command (rather than trying to listen to the lead I'm getting through any connection and such)... possibly another few tenths of a second later I'd finally start to get my muscles to react to the command. At probably over half a second reaction time am I following way too late?


Possibly my reaction time is somewhat quicker than yours :) I don't remember being told to duck. Its only happened a few times so I'm going to be a little vague but it seems more like its to get me into position for the move rather than trying to talk me through doing it.

Twirly
28th-February-2008, 04:36 PM
There are some of us, particularly with impaired hearing, whom verbal leads simply don't work with - to the verbal lead "duck" I'd just look at my partner and say "what?", by which time it'd be too late!

Besides which, it doesn't tend to be my ears that I'm listening with to get the information I need to know what you want me to do next...

killingtime
28th-February-2008, 04:54 PM
I'm going to be a little vague but it seems more like its to get me into position for the move rather than trying to talk me through doing it.

Ooh I like that. I can't wait to say "prepare to be seduced(erd)" before manly (well as manly as I am (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/beginners-corner/11421-manly-man-spins.html)) leading her into said move.


There are some of us, particularly with impaired hearing, whom verbal leads simply don't work with - to the verbal lead "duck" I'd just look at my partner and say "what?", by which time it'd be too late!

Totally; this is especially bad if such verbal leads are being used in moves that might result in injury if this is not done (even as much as being slapped in the head causes).

As has been said elsewhere though I've no interest in becoming a drill sergeant and I'm sure most followers would prefer not to have orders barked at them.

jive-vee
28th-February-2008, 05:02 PM
I danced with a lot of other females at Southport, both as a lead and a follow. I even asked a girl I've never danced with before (Tor?), because I've seen her lead before (and she looks fab), and I've heard other followers (both male and female) rave about her lead. And I have to agree, she's a fantastic lead! :respect:

I think it may have been Tor who I saw at Southport and considered asking to lead me but chickened out. She did look like a fab lead. :respect:

Now I know you lead as well LM I'll ask you too if I see you about.:D

And you too Caz, cheers :flower:

Smiley Sue
28th-February-2008, 05:05 PM
Jenny and Ricardo
:respect::respect:

Little Monkey
28th-February-2008, 05:09 PM
I think it may have been Tor who I saw at Southport and considered asking to lead me but chickened out. She did look like a fab lead. :respect:

She's awesome. Just ask her, the worst that'll happen is that she'll say no.


Now I know you lead as well LM I'll ask you too if I see you about.:D


Any time, my dear! :flower:

StokeBloke
28th-February-2008, 05:43 PM
And so all followers are perfect in every way! :na:
No. Part of the skill of being a good lead is to recognise the capability of your follow and work at playing within those boundaries. Be bold and push the edges for added fun, but be aware that things may turn out differently than you anticipated.

Barking instructions does not constitute working within someone's boundaries IMO :flower:

Steven666
28th-February-2008, 05:55 PM
No. Part of the skill of being a good lead is to recognise the capability of your follow and work at playing within those boundaries. Be bold and push the edges for added fun, but be aware that things may turn out differently than you anticipated.

Barking instructions does not constitute working within someone's boundaries IMO :flower:

Correct! :respect:

gebandemuishond
28th-February-2008, 06:37 PM
:eek:

On that note, here's what Amir said (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/intermediate-corner/12964-leading-columbian-5.html#post386742) about this sort of thing (in relation to the Columbian):

Originally Posted by Amir http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/images/orange_buttons_basic/viewpost.gif (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/intermediate-corner/12964-leading-columbian-post386742.html#post386742)
I was once following a guy and he said 'Columbian!'
I said 'no, New Zealand actually, but I do use sun beds a lot.' I was pleased he had noticed my dark smooth tan, and forgot all about it.



:D


I love it! It's like that scene in The Naked Gun where someone offers Leslie Nielson a cigar, saying "Cuban?" and he replies "No, Scots-Irish. My father was from Wales".

Dan

MartinHarper
28th-February-2008, 07:42 PM
One thing I would throw in from my experience, both leading men occasionally and seeing others do it is that it tends to be the more experienced and accomplished leaders who are willing to lead other men thus the experience of the male being led (happy, DJ?) is not entirely similar to that of the average follower at an average night.

Yes, I think the experiences are different in a number of ways, and that is one of them.


I don't really think I've encountered a lead that has told me what to do...

I have. Most recently I think was "trust me and hold on" prior to some drop-like thing. It works fine.