Bouncy Men as leads

[kiwichook]

Have spent sometime looking thr the "bouncy" threads and they all seem to talk about the ladies being bouncy. Is there a thread that talks about bouncy men who also love jumping up and down and what to do with them??

As a follower, one is forced into this bouncy hand thing, and being of pipsqueak strength its hard to lock me arm down, intrepret what move he is doing, listen to the music and honestly being able to say that was an enjoyable dance he just gave me.

Short of not dancing with this 'ballet trained' bloke, which is a shame as we have so few blokes in the studio, let alone one that has been trained in the dance world has any followers out there got any suggestions, cos having asked him pleasantly to stop it, shown him how he looks on video, and calling him "pogo", nothing seems to work!!

I really need some more innovative ideas on what we can do to "help him" cos we not only do we need this man as a so called "advanced dancer", but we wanna see him improve his game.:whistle:

Some serious words from some of you big guns out there, that I can print off and put in front of him may help...lol

[MartinHarper]

Is he bouncing his body relative to the floor, bouncing his hand relative to his body, or both?

Body bouncing

You should be able and willing to follow the vertical motion of his body. If he's pulsing up and down, follow that. If he's dancing with rise and fall, follow that. If you can't, learn how. If you won't, get over yourself. This will help you tune into his lead. It will mean that you're actually following. It will make the two of you look more like a partnership.

Hand bouncing

You need to engage the right set of muscles, and relax the right set of muscles, so that you are able to follow horizontal movements of your hand without having to follow vertical movements of your hand. I can't tell you which muscles they are, but I'm sure a teacher can help you. This is the same technique that lets you follow returns without jumping two foot into the air.

----

In both cases, don't try to lock your hand down: this means that you are fighting his lead, rather than following it. Additionally, avoid calling your fellow dancers names, such as "pogo", as it is rude. Finally, remember: it is always the follower's fault.

[gebandemuishond]

Have spent sometime looking thr the "bouncy" threads and they all seem to talk about the ladies being bouncy. Is there a thread that talks about bouncy men who also love jumping up and down and what to do with them??

As a follower, one is forced into this bouncy hand thing, and being of pipsqueak strength its hard to lock me arm down, intrepret what move he is doing, listen to the music and honestly being able to say that was an enjoyable dance he just gave me.

Short of not dancing with this 'ballet trained' bloke, which is a shame as we have so few blokes in the studio, let alone one that has been trained in the dance world has any followers out there got any suggestions, cos having asked him pleasantly to stop it, shown him how he looks on video, and calling him "pogo", nothing seems to work!!

I really need some more innovative ideas on what we can do to "help him" cos we not only do we need this man as a so called "advanced dancer", but we wanna see him improve his game.:whistle:

Some serious words from some of you big guns out there, that I can print off and put in front of him may help...lol


I'm neither a follower nor a 'big gun', but saying something like "Would you mind leaving that particular hand action to when you're alone and in private, not when you're dancing with me, if you please" might work... or some similar allusion.

Possibly do a reverse roles class and show him a smooth dance and one where you (or a more powerful dancer) jerk his arm out of its socket.

I believe I've read on some class' site that they have people who scan the room for such bouncers and 'intercept' them, then give them an impromptu lesson, they might have better ideas, but I can't remember whose site it was, sorry!

Good luck!

Dan

[NZ Monkey]

I'd say the only thing at this point that might help is for somebody who he might listen to mention it to him, assuming others see the problem. That probably means the teacher, but it might be someone else depending on the social dynamics at your studio.

If there isn't anyone there he might listen to then there really isn't anything you can do. If he's seen what he's doing and is happy with it then he's happy.

[MartinHarper]

Possibly do a reverse roles class and show him a smooth dance and one where you (or a more powerful dancer) jerk his arm out of its socket.

If a vertically bouncing hand injures my shoulder joint, it means I need to relax my elbow. A lot. There's no way that should ever happen. As leader or follower.

[gebandemuishond]

Is he bouncing his body relative to the floor, bouncing his hand relative to his body, or both?

Body bouncing

You should be able and willing to follow the vertical motion of his body. If he's pulsing up and down, follow that. If he's dancing with rise and fall, follow that. If you can't, learn how. If you won't, get over yourself. This will help you tune into his lead. It will mean that you're actually following. It will make the two of you look more like a partnership.

Hand bouncing

You need to engage the right set of muscles, and relax the right set of muscles, so that you are able to follow horizontal movements of your hand without having to follow vertical movements of your hand. I can't tell you which muscles they are, but I'm sure a teacher can help you. This is the same technique that lets you follow returns without jumping two foot into the air.

:yeah: I agree with the first paragraph, I'm not sure about the second, my physiological knowledge is very slight, so I'll have to take people's word for it.


Additionally, avoid calling your fellow dancers names, such as "pogo", as it is rude.In my opinion, refusing to even try to take advice that would make the dance bearable (what I gather from kiwichook's post) is rude.


If a vertically bouncing hand injures my shoulder joint, it means I need to relax my elbow. A lot. There's no way that should ever happen. As leader or follower.

Does relaxing the elbow not make it harder to maintain a decent connection/tension? I honestly don't know.

Dan

[Steven666]

Over exaggerate his bouncing with outrageous boucing of your own to give him a taste of his own medicine. Maybe he'll see that it isn't pleasant.

[kiwichook]

Thank you Martin for your helpful comments. I would like to hear from other girls who may have encountered this problem and hope they have the courage to speak about it or even god forbid make "a joke" about someone who pulls your arm consistently up and down. I see on this forum that some men don't like ladies that bounce, well it works both ways. Furthermore how about the concept of being chucked into a spin also at the same time the arm is "upping and downing" resulting in a falling over or coming off balance on the ladies part. And to top it off, then being taken down for "not following" to what amounts to a most disorientating and distracting lead, if it can even be called that?? :rofl:

[MartinHarper]

If a vertically bouncing hand injures my shoulder joint, it means I need to relax my elbow. A lot. There's no way that should ever happen. As leader or follower.

I suppose I should say that if a short lead is dancing with a tall follower, there's an outside chance he could take her hand too low, and injure her shoulder that way.
Plus, maybe if someone was bouncing their hands crazily during a pretzel or swizzle move that could be a problem.


Does relaxing the elbow not make it harder to maintain a decent connection/tension?

I'm not saying "have a relaxed elbow" so much as "don't dance with rigor mortis".

[kiwichook]

[QUOTE=MartinHarper;444243]
Plus, maybe if someone was bouncing their hands crazily during a pretzel or swizzle move that could be a problem.


Actually you have hit the nail on the head, that's just one of many moves he loves to lead with his bouncing "crazy hands".....and he has no concept that this lead, may for some women, be difficult to follow. Believe it or not, we love this guy to pieces and he's a really great friend! Not sure how you can equate rudeness on mine or any of the other girls' part, all of whom have to endure the same treatment from him and have tried to explain what its like to dance with him. It's only feedback.. and as for the reference to "pogo" PLEASE he knows its a joke and that it is delivered in a friendly jokelike environment.

So therefore my initial request on this forum was only in the hope someone out there may give us an idea how to get it thr to him that he's getting a little over excited. PS Have tried the over bouncing hand back may times but me arm gets buggered:rofl:

[Ghost]

Some serious words from some of you big guns out there, that I can print off and put in front of him may help...lol

Ok this is for him rather than you


Um do you actually want to dance with this crazy lady? If you do, (the joys of having friends huh), then forget about the whole "bouncy is bad" thing she's trying to convince you of.

But, she wants to dance in the smooth style with you sooooooooo much she's actually gone to all this effort - so first of all count your blessings to have a friend like her. Then ask yourself is it really that bad learning to dance smooth so she can enjoy the dance? There's nothing to stop you dancing bouncy with everyone else - let her other friends get their own threads to convince you.

Congrats though on being either a good enough dancer or person (or both) that she's actually done this :respect:

[kiwichook]

Hey Ghost
Thanx for your post man, I'm sitting here with tears running down my face, in fits of laughter cos I AM "crazy". The majority of other old lady crocks in our very small studio who funnily enough are also "crazy" as well, will absolutely love reading your comments. Gorgeous, gorgeous, gorgeous...and as Kenny Everett once said, "its all done in the best possible taste" cos "Pogo's Rock Aye!!" - :waycool::love:

[Ghost]

Hey Ghost
Thanx for your post man, I'm sitting here with tears running down my face, in fits of laughter cos I AM "crazy". The majority of other old lady crocks in our very small studio who funnily enough are also "crazy" as well, will absolutely love reading your comments. Gorgeous, gorgeous, gorgeous...and as Kenny Everett once said, "its all done in the best possible taste" cos "Pogo's Rock Aye!!" - :waycool::love:

I'd love to see the look on his face when you explain to him that you've got a message for him about his dancing from some guy from England called Ghost :rofl:

[kiwichook]

I'd love to see the look on his face when you explain to him that you've got a message for him about his dancing from some guy from England called Ghost :rofl:


Yeah see what yer mean, out of context its actually looks and sounds really funny when you think about the whole bouncing thing and now we have an extra element to contend with a Doctor of Dancing called "Ghost" . Cos it shouldn't really matter what he does, as long as everyone's having fun, no one gets hurt and people can take a joke or two, cos it goes both ways and it's only dancing innit, hee hee:flower:

[dave the scaffolder]

Aye aye i used to be a bouncy lead and Trouble stopped me bouncing.

it takes a great deal of effort for a man to stop bouncing.

The best advice i ever got was .."Keep your chest level when you dance."

If your chest is level the bounce will go.

Other people tp ask would be Simon Borland or Onkar.

However he may be happy with his dancing and is not yet able to overcome this problem at his stage of dancing.

More good advice . Ask him to slow down and get a couple of blues lessons under his belt, that should slow him down, could be he is trying too hard, relax and dance to the music, slowly.

XXX XXX DTS Dave

[StokeBloke]

Dancers have delicate egos, and leads are pretty fragile little flowers y'know :wink: It's far easier to ignore the problem, or explain it away than to deal with it.

Coming from the Midlands (UK) it was pretty inevitable that I was bouncing my arms about when I very first started to dance. It is what I was being taught to do!!! The Midlands Bounce is a well know phenomena here! :eek: However after reading a couple of threads here very early on in my dancing career, I realised how appalling the habit is. I had to pretty much relearn to dance. It was a hard bullet to bite.... he may already be trying! I can't remember the actual thread that I read, but it would have been about a year ago or so ago - as that's how long I've been here.... and dancing. I'm sure it had the word bounce in the title. I'll have a scan back through for it.

If he's seen himself on video, you could maybe loan him some competition videos to compare his 'ballet trained' style against. It's a tricky one. I would suggest picking a couple of points about his dancing that you like and discussing these with him, then hit him with the... 'if you could only iron out the arm movements a little' tact.

Is it possible to point him to this forum so he can see and read for himself Kiwichook? As DTS said, I would also think about encouraging your teacher to do some Blues with you guys to try and smooth him out a little. Possibly get him to spend some time with one of the smoother leads that you have.

[kiwichook]

[QUOTE=dave the scaffolder;444256]
The best advice i ever got was .."Keep your chest level when you dance."


So you meaning standing square on to partner hey ??
Cos if so, by joves, we think you may have our solution here, cos this dude ain't square when we think about it. He's too busy doin his "dramatics". We also wondered by any chance if his dramatics has anything to do with him not being placed in any competitions, other than reaching finals..???? Cos he can move, no two ways about that, but just that he's moving in strange and unaccountable ways at times that seem to defy reasonability..his competition partner (not me) is quite beside herself as she wants them to do well, but finds she has to bite her tongue and really cope with the "bing bing batta boom boom".. hee hee

[StokeBloke]

OK, I have had a quick look and I have narrowed it down to these three. Can't be sure which one it was but they all contain useful points, tips and advice:

Glide Glide - not Bounce Bounce (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/lets-talk-about-dance/10073-glide-glide-not-bounce-bounce.html)

Ceroc[tm] Bounce Official (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/intermediate-corner/10122-ceroc-tm-bounce-official.html)

Where Does The Hand Bounce Come From? (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/lets-talk-about-dance/7513-where-does-hand-bounce-come.html)

HTH
Stokie :D

[kiwichook]

Guys
We come to the forum in search for advice becasue we can not get the help locally. We have no really great teachers to menter us. We look at You Tube stuff, see you guys in action and wonder why our people don't look like what we see.We really appreciate your advice as its not coming from anyone in this town, so suggestions to talk to our teachers isn't one we can fall back to. Teachers in this town don't even know what Blues style is, so we will need to rely on DVD's brought in from the UK, we are that desparate ..:sick:

[StokeBloke]

Guys
We come to the forum in search for advice becasue we can not get the help locally. We have no really great teachers to menter us. We look at You Tube stuff, see you guys in action and wonder why our people don't look like what we see.We really appreciate your advice as its not coming from anyone in this town, so suggestions to talk to our teachers isn't one we can fall back to. Teachers in this town don't even know what Blues style is, so we will need to rely on DVD's brought in from the UK, we are that desparate ..:sick:Ekkk! Sounds like it's pretty dire where you live!!

As a side note, I think the bouncing is caused partly because of the God damn awful semi-circle Ceroc start. It tells students that arms are NOT for communicating the lead's intentions, but just something that stops the two of you drifting too far apart from each other when you're dancing!! You have the teacher counting you guys in 5,6,7,8... each number accompanied by a little wrist jerk for emphasis, then a God damn semi-circle push away to reinforce the point that the hands are used just to 'keep time', it's a sinful waste of a fantastic lead resource!! :tears::tears::tears:

[David Bailey]

I see on this forum that some men don't like ladies that bounce, well it works both ways.
Actually, I don't have a problem with lady bouncers (!) - it's rare for me to find a follower who is so inherently and stubbornly bouncy that I can't deal with. I mean, I am the leader, after all, I've got all the necessary tools to hand, so to speak. Coping with different styles is a skill you learn with time.

I think this applies to a degree to followers, although you're naturally hampered by, well, being followers - so you can't influence things as much. But even so, I think the best followers will have techniques to alleviate bad leading.

As for this specific guy, video-ing is maybe not a bad suggestion, assuming you have other comparison videos of proper - or non-bouncy - technique for comparison purposes.

[Andy McGregor]

My advice is to ask this guy to experiment with you. Suggest he tries bouncing his hand less, try bouncing it more, try not bouncing it at all, etc. Also suggest that you try big steps, small steps, no steps, bouncing from the knees rather than the hand, keeping closer together, further apart, etc. Think of different things to try and just have a laugh about it.

Please don't try to hint or make fun of him. Be direct and ask him if you can learn and improve together.

On the subject of following a bouncer - just go with it, resistance is futile :sick:

[straycat]

I'm neither a follower nor a 'big gun', but saying something like "Would you mind leaving that particular hand action to when you're alone and in private, not when you're dancing with me, if you please" might work... or some similar allusion.

Hard to say - it's not always something a leader (or follower) can just stop doing. From my own experience, when I finally cottened on to the fact that hand-bouncing was undesireable, it still took a long time (over a year) to actually remove (almost) all traces of it ... and for a while, I thought I'd managed to stop doing it, but hadn't. :blush:

I can be a slow learner, 'tis true, but it's very hard to get rid of habits when they've become entrenched.

[JiveLad]

[quote=gebandemuishond;444234]I'm neither a follower nor a 'big gun', /quote]

As an aside........

Just wondering if a 'big gun' is similar to a 'hot shot'?

Which variant has the larger ego? Or or they both just great dancers?

[Double Trouble]

Everyone at Cheshunt has been given a name by me and Trouble.

Needless to say we have a "bouncer" and a "wibbly".

You can't say anything to them. I'd love to tell Bouncer that he looks bloody terrible when he's dancing, but he seems to be enjoying himself, so who am I to burst his bubble.

But here's the question. I know he would get more dances with better leads if he changed his dance style and became more smooth, so is it right to leave him in blissful ignorance of his bouncy dancing, or bruise his ego, but possible help him in the long run?

[Steven666]

Everyone at Cheshunt has been given a name by me and Trouble.

Needless to say we have a "bouncer" and a "wibbly".

You can't say anything to them. I'd love to tell Bouncer that he looks bloody terrible when he's dancing, but he seems to be enjoying himself, so who am I to burst his bubble.

But here's the question. I know he would get more dances with better leads if he changed his dance style and became more smooth, so is it right to leave him in blissful ignorance of his bouncy dancing, or bruise his ego, but possible help him in the long run?

Give a gentle hint. If that fails, give a bigger hint. If that fails, move on.

[Martin]

Guys
We come to the forum in search for advice becasue we can not get the help locally. We have no really great teachers to menter us. We look at You Tube stuff, see you guys in action and wonder why our people don't look like what we see.We really appreciate your advice as its not coming from anyone in this town, so suggestions to talk to our teachers isn't one we can fall back to. Teachers in this town don't even know what Blues style is, so we will need to rely on DVD's brought in from the UK, we are that desparate ..:sick:

You do have great teachers and mentors in Wellington (I know it is a few hours away for you...)

If you can make a trip to Wellington, they have classes Wednesday and Thursdays - maybe a road trip on the Wednesday, taking in a private lesson during the Thursday as well, do the Thursday class and back on the Friday.

Adam and Mandy who teach there would be great Mentors, Adam also has run Ceroc Metro (the north london franchise) for many years now and he is a VERY experienced teacher, who does not "bop" but does "smooth dance" to all paces of music.

thier web site is Home (http://www.cerocwellington.com/)

make sure you contact him first to see if he will be around and to book a private lesson, as he is sometimes in the UK.

(they also do a dance weekender in Wellington in October / November time, which gets attendance from all over NZ (both North and South Islands))

If money is an issue, it does not hurt to ask Adam or Mandy if any local dancers can put you up to save accomadation costs.

As a funny aside, last year at a weekender in Aussie, the bopping hand was refered to by one of the visiting teachers... He called it the "wanky hand" he got everyone in the class to bop hands up and down, then got the girls to take a step back and stop bopping... Everyone then looked at the men moving thier hands up and down, he then asked people they thought it looked like... Hence the term...."Wanky hand" :blush::D
There was a distinct lack of bouncy hands for the rest of the lesson... :waycool:

[dave the scaffolder]

Aye aye i have had another thought on this.


Are there any men in your dance class that can follow a lead? If so get a decent dancer of a man and get him to dance with him.

Two men dancing together, swopping leads can iron out a multitude of sins.

You may have a bit of a job on here as constant reinforcement is the only way forward.

Let me give you an example of a bouncy follower.

Whilst dancing at Stevenage last week i danced with a beginner who bounced like a kangaroo on speed, after about a minute i pulled her in close and said to her, do you mind if i give you a bit of advice with your dancing, which i did i told her to stop bouncing as when it is a habit it is hard to break.

We had a couple of slow dances and i made them very slow and fluid like.

At the end of the dances she had no bounce and said to me. i have learned more in dancing with you for 3 tracks than i have in the last eight weeks.

Noe a teacher has a class to teach and cannot spend time on individuals for any amount of time so get a good male dancer to eliminate his bounce.

I am afraid it is trial and error as what works for one person may not work for another.

DTS Dave xx xx

[Twirly]

You do have great teachers and mentors in Wellington (I know it is a few hours away for you...)

If you can make a trip to Wellington, they have classes Wednesday and Thursdays - maybe a road trip on the Wednesday, taking in a private lesson during the Thursday as well, do the Thursday class and back on the Friday.

Depending on how many of you there are (to split the cost), and what day of the week you dance/have studio space available, why not invite them to come and do some workshops for you?

I can see why this is clearly more of an issue for you than it is for most of us, where there is a bigger pool of dancers to chose from - if I come across a really bad bouncer, I won't have to dance with him very often. I guess that you don't have that luxury.

I do find it odd though, that if he's ballet-trained, he bounces :confused: Ballet is very much about control and being smooth and fluid.

[Rhythm King]

Amir Giles has both lived in New Zealand and become a trained ballet dancer yet is one the smoothest dancers in the world :worthy: Check out his Jango DVDs - you could give one to Pogo as something to aspire to. There must be hope for you yet...

Meanwhile get Trampy to visit your studio on his next Austral tour.

R-K

[Ghost]

I do find it odd though, that if he's ballet-trained, he bounces :confused: Ballet is very much about control and being smooth and fluid.
I think that's probably why he's doing it. He's gone from "GRRRRR structured" to

FREE :D

I'd probably be bouncing off the walls too :wink:

[Twirly]

I think that's probably why he's doing it. He's gone from "GRRRRR structured" to

FREE :D

I'd probably be bouncing off the walls too :wink:

So maybe the answer is to try to bring some structure to his dancing then - or by structure do you mean rules?

[Gav]

Don't forget that in some remote and strange places, there are still experienced followers telling beginner, smooth, leaders "you're doing well, now all you need to do is start bouncing to the beat too"! :eek:

[TA Guy]

Perhaps he actually enjoys the more energetic bouncy style?
Lots of dancers arn't experienced enough to deal with the myriad of different dance styles in MJ, that doesn't mean everybody has to fit the currently in vogue fad/standard.

I would ask, is it hurting anyone physically?
If the answer is 'yes'. I would say that gives excuse enough to address it directly, follow the advice here, chest level, push down thru ground with feet etc etc etc.
If the answer is 'no', then it becomes much more difficult since he is doing nothing wrong and all you are doing is trying to get someone to match styles with you rather than you making the effort to match his style. That need not be actually wrong or selfish, but at least be sensitive about any attempt to change the guys dancing :)

[Double Trouble]

Of course there is the other end of the scale which is just as irritating. The blokes who just stand there doing the moves on the spot and instead of dancing they just walk to the music. Some leads could actually add a little bounce to there dancing...anything is better than just standing there.

Men who can't dance, but can do moves to the beat of the music probably should be bouncy, or watch leads who can dance and do their best to try it out.

Lessons might help a bit, but in my experience, you either have it or you don't.

[jemessex]

Don't forget that in some remote and strange places, there are still experienced followers telling beginner, smooth, leaders "you're doing well, now all you need to do is start bouncing to the beat too"! :eek:

hmmm...wonder if you mean this part of the world.......mj still stuck in the 90's here

[jemessex]

instead of dancing they just walk to the music.

aghhh....walking to the music..especially when suddenly they develop a limp..buts thats a whole new thread altogether

[Gav]

hmmm...wonder if you mean this part of the world.......mj still stuck in the 90's here

Hehe, not far off. Norfolk (cough).
It's not all bad, there is plenty good up there, but it only takes 1 or 2 like that to create a bad impression.

[dave the scaffolder]

Kiwichok my lovely you have one of the best dancers on the planet near you book him a private lesson with Adam Nathian, (may have spelt his surname wrong), IMHO one of the best dancers to ever walk the earth, if he cant sort him out ..Give up .

DTS Dave xxx xxx

[Double Trouble]

Adam Nathian, (may have spelt his surname wrong),

Do you mean Adam Natheson...the short goaty faced bloke who lives in Australia?


IMHO one of the best dancers to ever walk the earth,

Really? If it's the same bloke I am thinking of I'd be interested to know why you think he is one of the best.

[dave the scaffolder]

Do you mean Adam Natheson...the short goaty faced bloke who lives in Australia?



Really? If it's the same bloke I am thinking of I'd be interested to know why you think he is one of the best.


yep thats him

ADAM NATHESON franchise holder of Ceroc Metro excellent dancer .
DTS

[Double Trouble]

yep thats him

ADAM NATHESON franchise holder of Ceroc Metro excellent dancer .
DTS

:rofl:have you ever actually danced with him?

[Trouble]

yep thats him

ADAM NATHESON franchise holder of Ceroc Metro excellent dancer .
DTS

LOL- LOL - LOL

I think he dances like Wayne Sleep. Bless him.

i would not put him as a fantastic dancer but he could certainly remove bouncing for sure.

[dave the scaffolder]

:rofl:have you ever actually danced with him?

Gosh you are soo funny
DTS:cheers:

[dave the scaffolder]

LOL- LOL - LOL



i would not put him as a fantastic dancer but he could certainly remove bouncing for sure.

The man is a marvell if he cant cure the bounce...No one can.

DTS Dave xxx xxx

[Gav]

Kiwichok my lovely you have one of the best dancers on the planet near you book him a private lesson with Adam Nathian

I'd be amazed if anyone was sooo affected by a random strangers dance style that they booked them a private lesson to sort it out?
On one hand it would be incredibly generous, on the other it would be outrageously offensive, rude and presumptuous!

Not to mention that the only lesson I've seen Mr. Nathanson teach, he ignored his students and went flying past essential techniques that some people were struggling with, but which were needed for the rest of the lesson.

Good dancer? maybe, Good teacher? Not in my experience.

[fletch]

Hehe, not far off. Norfolk [/COLOR]


tut tut Gav,:sick: your at it again :eek::wink:


have you ever actually danced with him?

well :confused:


yep thats him

ADAM NATHESON franchise holder of Ceroc Metro excellent dancer .
DTS



nice chap as well :hug:



Gosh you are soo funny
DTS

well :confused:


The man is a marvell if he cant cure the bounce...No one can.

DTS Dave xxx xxx

woner if he would like a job in the Midlands.

[Gav]

Hehe, not far off. Norfolk (cough).

tut tut Gav,:sick: your at it again :eek::wink:

OI! Cheeky mare :rolleyes:. What about the rest of the post?


Hehe, not far off. Norfolk (cough).
It's not all bad, there is plenty good up there, but it only takes 1 or 2 like that to create a bad impression.

[dave the scaffolder]

I'd be amazed if anyone was sooo affected by a random strangers dance style that they booked them a private lesson to sort it out?
On one hand it would be incredibly generous, on the other it would be outrageously offensive, rude and presumptuous!

Not to mention that the only lesson I've seen Mr. Nathanson teach, he ignored his students and went flying past essential techniques that some people were struggling with, but which were needed for the rest of the lesson.

Good dancer? maybe, Good teacher? Not in my experience.

So this is the same guy who has won numerous competitions in this country and in New Zealand.

If i remember right the last but one time he was over he told the class at Stevenage he just won the New Zealand open competition(or something like that).

On a different note this lady has come on the forum asking for advice and i pointed her, and the bounce problem, to an international standard winner who lives a couple of hours from her, do you see a problem with this?

DTS

[Gav]

So this is the same guy who has won numerous competitions in this country and in New Zealand.
If i remember right the last but one time he was over he told the class at Stevenage he just won the New Zealand open competition(or something like that).

I was commenting on his teaching ability. I think you'll find that none of his awards that you've listed were for teaching.

[Ghost]

So maybe the answer is to try to bring some structure to his dancing then - or by structure do you mean rules?
Oh you know, rules, bleeding feet, that kind of thing.......

I'd just let him work it out of his system and enjoy bouncing around like Tigger for a while. He may well go to smooth of his own accord in a year or so, particularly if he was attracted to ballet in the first place. Hence my "keep bouncing, but maybe dance smooth with Kiwichook" approach

[fletch]

Clearly as you can all see DTS is on. PMS DEAR.

on what :confused:

not you I hope :D

[dave the scaffolder]

Clearly as you can all see DTS is on. PMS DEAR.

Ho ho ho
Anyway check out Adam for the bounce as he is a diamond and may help Mr Bouncy.
Which was what this thread was about at the start.

DTS Dave xx xxx

[David Bailey]

instead of dancing they just walk to the music.
You say that like it's a bad thing?


Do you mean Adam Natheson...the short goaty faced bloke who lives in Australia?
Nathanson.


Really? If it's the same bloke I am thinking of I'd be interested to know why you think he is one of the best.
He's not bad. Not up to my level, of course, but hey, who is? :grin:


So this is the same guy who has won numerous competitions in this country and in New Zealand.
Dunno - he won the Advanced DWAS in Australia a while back (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/lets-talk-about-dance/6552-finally-brit-wins-something-aussies-turf.html), I know that.

And, banter aside, bear in mind, this is a forumite we're discussing. Which means that I'm the only one allowed to call him a plonker.

[dave the scaffolder]

I think you will find that Adam lives and teaches in New Zealand. This is where the thread originated from.

Try an excellent teacher to sort out the problem.

If he doesnt, whats lost?

DTS Dave XXX XXX

[kiwichook]

Hi ya guys
Yes we know Adam down here and funny enough, Mr Bouncy went to a musciality class of his a few years ago and it was like a major transformation in a space of an hour or so - he looked to be cured, and he put out the most amazing dances ever that evening, he was pure magic! But when he got home he went straight back to bouncing and folks, yes that was 2 years ago ..I feel that we have been very patient with him, accentuated the positive things we saw he took from Adam's class, but after 2 years of this, it is time to start tackling him about the reversion back. We are 5 hours drive away from Adam so in total 10 hours all up by road to fix it and then there is costs and time out of the busy schedule to do this. We just really wanted some ideas on some things we could do here for him, hey :nice:

[Andy McGregor]

Do you mean Adam Natheson...the short goaty faced bloke who lives in Australia?



Really? If it's the same bloke I am thinking of I'd be interested to know why you think he is one of the best.Adam Nathanson lives in New Zealand with his NZ wife. He is one of the best dancers because he's 5' 7". It is common knowledge that all the best dancers are this height :whistle:

Perhaps Mr Bouncy is a bit too tall - there's no hope for him as a dancer if he's tall, especially if he's young, dark and handsome ...

[kiwichook]

Mr Bouncy is 5ft 7 as well, bald, slightly rotund and claims Scottish heritacy...now that ought to get some people going, hee hee

[Andy McGregor]

Mr Bouncy is 5ft 7 as well, bald, slightly rotund and claims Scottish heritacy...now that ought to get some people going, hee heeHe sounds like my twin: apart from the bouncing. No wonder women still want to dance with him in spite of the bouncing.

[dave the scaffolder]

I was commenting on his teaching ability. I think you'll find that none of his awards that you've listed were for teaching.

I think you will find i never listed any awards for teaching.:cheers:
DTS

[Martin]

My advice is to ask this guy to experiment with you. Suggest he tries bouncing his hand less, try bouncing it more, try not bouncing it at all, etc.


Good call Andy, also get it videoed an watch it back with him and get his impressions.
Whenever Kylie and I were practicing (in the early days of trying to get better), we used to video ourselves and if we had a difference of opinion we would watch the video and decide together which way looked best. :D


I'd be amazed if anyone was sooo affected by a random strangers dance style that they booked them a private lesson to sort it out?


True with a random stranger, but with someone who dances with you locally and you have known for over 2 years, and in a pool of not many dancers... then why not a private lesson?




Not to mention that the only lesson I've seen Mr. Nathanson teach, he ignored his students and went flying past essential techniques that some people were struggling with, but which were needed for the rest of the lesson.

Good dancer? maybe, Good teacher? Not in my experience.

I am sorry that in your one viewing of a class, you gained this perception / opinion.

There are many factors to think about when teaching and people do not always get it 100% for everyone.

Hopefully you will get a chance to partake as a student in a class or workshop with Adam in the future and your view might change. :flower:

Certainly, having joined in as a customer, to some of his workshops, I have a lot of respect for his ability.



Guys
We come to the forum in search for advice becasue we can not get the help locally. We have no really great teachers to menter us.

We really appreciate your advice as its not coming from anyone in this town, so suggestions to talk to our teachers isn't one we can fall back to.





Yes we know Adam down here and funny enough, Mr Bouncy went to a musciality class of his a few years ago and it was like a major transformation in a space of an hour or so

I guess you answered your own question... You cannot get help locally, there was a major transformation after a workshop with Adam...

I hope that you gain encoragement and ideas from this forum and from DVD's.. If you want one on one help, then, like the top dancers in the UK many years ago, who's local teacher could only take them so far... They travelled, spent the money and got to be much better dancers. :hug:

Good luck

Martin

[TA Guy]

I'd just let him work it out of his system and enjoy bouncing around like Tigger for a while. He may well go to smooth of his own accord in a year or so, particularly if he was attracted to ballet in the first place. Hence my "keep bouncing, but maybe dance smooth with Kiwichook" approach

Nice idea.

Whatever you do, don't treat it as 'a problem' like so many on this board do. It's just a clash of styles, the smoother, bluesey'er style that's currently in vogue, and the more traditional MJ style influenced not a little bit by Ballroom Jive.

[Martin]

Nice idea.

Whatever you do, don't treat it as 'a problem' like so many on this board do. It's just a clash of styles, the smoother, bluesey'er style that's currently in vogue, and the more traditional MJ style influenced not a little bit by Ballroom Jive.

Yeah clash of styles.

It is not trad MJ style to be bouncy in my experience, it is more 1990's Ceroc Ltd.

I did MJ in the 90's and I did not bop. I was not taught to bop.

[Gav]

I am sorry that in your one viewing of a class, you gained this perception / opinion.
There are many factors to think about when teaching and people do not always get it 100% for everyone.
Hopefully you will get a chance to partake as a student in a class or workshop with Adam in the future and your view might change.

Well it was a half day workshop and there were quite a few people struggling who got ignored, it wasn't just me.

I'll give people plenty of chances normally, but not when it involves spending my money. Never again.

[Lory]

He called it the "wanky hand" he got everyone in the class to bop hands up and down, then got the girls to take a step back and stop bopping... Everyone then looked at the men moving thier hands up and down, he then asked people they thought it looked like... Hence the term...."Wanky hand" :blush::D
There was a distinct lack of bouncy hands for the rest of the lesson... :waycool:
Love it! :rofl:

I know just the person I'm going to use that expression on! :D

[~*~Saligal~*~]

Thank you Martin for your helpful comments. I would like to hear from other girls who may have encountered this problem and hope they have the courage to speak about it or even god forbid make "a joke" about someone who pulls your arm consistently up and down. I see on this forum that some men don't like ladies that bounce, well it works both ways. Furthermore how about the concept of being chucked into a spin also at the same time the arm is "upping and downing" resulting in a falling over or coming off balance on the ladies part. And to top it off, then being taken down for "not following" to what amounts to a most disorientating and distracting lead, if it can even be called that?? :rofl: Can you get one of the teachers/coaches to let him know that to improve his dancing he would do better to work on his lead arm?(if the arm thing looks so obviously wrong, surely the coaches in NZ are good enough to notice it!) it might sound better coming from them than from one of his peers. If you are indeed a teacher of ceroc, and he won't listen then you may need to mention that you've had feedback from some followers that his arm "technique" that he's happy with isn't working for them either. Maybe when he knows that he's putting people off dancing with him he might get the message (good luck on your quest btw!)

[NZ Monkey]

Yes we know Adam down here and funny enough, Mr Bouncy went to a musciality class of his a few years ago and it was like a major transformation in a space of an hour or soAdam would be the closest "name" that anyone in the UK is likely to be familiar with, but he's far from the only respected teacher around NZ.

If for whatever reason you're near Auckland, you might try coming along to a workshop at Lorne Street. They're usually held around comp times so that might provide an excuse, although they do provide a monthly "moving up" workshop for beginners/early intermediates that covers (among other things...) exactly the issue you're describing.

Paul and Dana Tanavasa are excellent dancers and run their own MJ company up here. Sticking with Ceroc your best bet's might be Raechel Allen, or Pete Thomas and Tareza [insert last name here] in Auckland. Andre Merrigold is a good teacher about to move to Tauranga though which might be more convinient.

The forumnites Andreas and TheTramp are the most widely travelled MJ I know of throughout NZ. If you PM'd them I'm sure they could add something more to what I've just said.

[NZ Monkey]

Hi ya guys
Yes we know Adam down here and funny enough, Mr Bouncy went to a musciality class of his a few years ago and it was like a major transformation in a space of an hour or so - he looked to be cured, and he put out the most amazing dances ever that evening, he was pure magic! But when he got home he went straight back to bouncing and folks, yes that was 2 years ago ..I feel that we have been very patient with him, accentuated the positive things we saw he took from Adam's class, but after 2 years of this, it is time to start tackling him about the reversion back. We are 5 hours drive away from Adam so in total 10 hours all up by road to fix it and then there is costs and time out of the busy schedule to do this. We just really wanted some ideas on some things we could do here for him, hey :nice:In light of this, I have to ask the question again - does he really want to be helped?

I'm asking this because it seems quite possible to me that he just doesn't care - which means that any effort you make to solve his problems are likely to be the well intentioned version of pushing the brown stuff uphill.

Let me put it this way:

Change requires some effort on the part of Mr Bouncy. If it's undoing a habit of many years then it'll require a lot of effort. In order for this to be worth it then there has to be some sort of pay-off for him, and at the moment there seems little reason for him to do so other than to make you* happy.

It sounds to me like you don't have much in the way of close role-models which makes it difficult to see that there is a better way. It also sounds like you don't have much in the way of decent men on the dancefloor, which pretty much means he currently has a captive audience already.

Perhaps it's just better to accept the fact that he is what he is and happy that way, and not run the risk of it affecting your friendship. You can lead a horse to water after all.....:flower:

Read: the lovliest person in the room, the pushy b*tch who tells everyone how to dance, the hopeless girl who just can't follow, the extrememly talented one who just gets it naturally every time, or anything else that might be applicable in his view

[Martin]

In light of this, I have to ask the question again - does he really want to be helped?

/snip

Perhaps it's just better to accept the fact that he is what he is and happy that way, and not run the risk of it affecting your friendship. You can lead a horse to water after all.....:flower:


:yeah: If he is happy, be happy for him.

Either go with the flow, or do not dance with him, because it hurts.

I know you spend time and money to dance better, if he will not (or thinks he can not) I guess it's time to accept that.

I do not know of any top dancers in NZ, UK or Aussie, who have not put in a lot of practice time, money and travel to get where they are.

[Gadget]

Personally I wouldn't ask him not to bounce, but to 'flow' more; to shine the spotlight on his partner; make the dance more of a subtle act rather than a pantomine...

I think that he may just be 'finding the beat' with his hands, but he's hitting a big timpony drum with fists rather than a little snair with fingers.

If he likes being a "drama queen" in his dancing, then it's a simple fact that contrast provides greater drama and effect; he dosn't have to stop being bouncy - just learn how to smooth things so that he can put more into his dancing. :D

...of course (as has been suggested) you could always learn how to dance with a bouncy lead... :wink:

[MartinHarper]

I'm asking this because it seems quite possible to me that he just doesn't care.

By contrast, kiwichook does care. Life would work better if she put the effort in to change, as she has the appropriate motivation.

[kiwichook]

Well guys I printed off some of the stuff here, including Ghost's letter. We also put on some blues music for Mr Bouncy, showed him some moves we had learn out of town and then asked him to talk thr and demo to a few others what he had seen and oh my god, WOW!!!! This man can seriously dance when he puts his mind to it! The demo was AMAZING -it was enough to shed a tear ! The spooky part of it is that visually we could see that perhaps, dare I say it, we are harbouring a clone of the world famous Adam, except with a kiwi accent..

[Ghost]

Well guys I printed off some of the stuff here, including Ghost's letter. We also put on some blues music for Mr Bouncy, showed him some moves we had learn out of town and then asked him to talk thr and demo to a few others what he had seen and oh my god, WOW!!!!
:respect: to him for doing this

:clap::clap::clap:

[Martin]

:respect: to him for doing this

:clap::clap::clap:

:yeah: I hope he got a lot of positive praise ... I am sure he did :hug:

[kiwichook]

:yeah: I hope he got a lot of positive praise ... I am sure he did :hug:

By oath he did..he has so much potential, just unfortunately tends to get "losssst in spaaaaace" sometimes. The agreeement however that seems to be working well for us is that he bounces with teenage bouncy ladies and stops bouncing when he dances with woman of his own age, that is the old witchey poo hags. Like me for instance and a few others who count themselves in this category, and its workin'! Such an agreeable old fella aye :wink:

[Martin]

By oath he did..he has so much potential, just unfortunately tends to get "losssst in spaaaaace" sometimes. The agreeement however that seems to be working well for us is that he bounces with teenage bouncy ladies and stops bouncing when he dances with woman of his own age, that is the old witchey poo hags. Like me for instance and a few others who count themselves in this category, and its workin'! Such an agreeable old fella aye :wink:

What a great agreement, he gets to "freak out" with the youngsters and go smooth for the smooth chicks...

Only a few more sleeps to Hunter Valley now... I will be looking out for some "old witchey poo hags" from NZ :D :rofl::rofl:

[kiwichook]

Yip started packing that witches bag already, I'm the only witch though attending from the boondocks studio. My other two cohorts have another convention to attend so sadly will not be there to conjure up sum dodgy magic :D

[Trouble]

Well done guys I hope he appreciates the trouble you guys have gone to, to improve his dancing.

DTS Dave logged on at Troubles.
XXX XXX

[Martin]

Yip started packing that witches bag already, I'm the only witch though attending from the boondocks studio. My other two cohorts have another convention to attend so sadly will not be there to conjure up sum dodgy magic :D

:D Did you pack your T-shirt, you know, the one that sais

"Don't bounce - or I'll turn you into a frog"

:rofl::rofl: