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Astro
16th-December-2007, 01:30 PM
Why do girls swing their hips naturally, while boys have to learn?

Should more emphasis be put on swinging the hips in beginners classes?

straycat
16th-December-2007, 01:54 PM
Why do girls swing their hips naturally, while boys have to learn?
Simple version: because in this country, men grow up feeling that such things are not masculine. So we get scared, never learn it, and find it hard when we're older.


Should more emphasis be put on swinging the hips in beginners classes?
Not in my book... hip swinging isn't an MJ basic (more a styling thing), and brand-new nervous leads have enough to contend with. Let's not scare them off...

Andy McGregor
16th-December-2007, 02:25 PM
Simple version: because in this country, men grow up feeling that such things are not masculine. So we get scared, never learn it, and find it hard when we're older.

Not in my book... hip swinging isn't an MJ basic (more a styling thing), and brand-new nervous leads have enough to contend with. Let's not scare them off...In the beginners lessons I tell the guys not to attempt wiggling. I often use visualisations from movies. For walking I ask them to think of John Travolta (coolest guy on the planet - even cooler than Cliff :wink: ) in Saturday night fever during the opening sequence when he struts through the street to pick up some paint for his boss.

I particularly warn the guys not to attempt wiggling in any moves involving a walk-around: it makes them look like they've got one leg shorter than the other :eek:

I tell the beginner women that they have a natural swing to their hips that's lovely and not to worry about enhancing that until they've got the steps right. I think part of the natural swing of a woman's hips is down to their shape - probably enhanced by wearing high-heels.

ducasi
16th-December-2007, 04:34 PM
As Andy says, women's hips are naturally more wiggly. It's a physiological thing.

As for teaching more wiggling... I've danced with a few women who are too busy wiggling their hips to dance. Let it develop as part of your style - don't force it.

As for men wiggling hips - this should be strictly optional.

Astro
16th-December-2007, 04:52 PM
As for men wiggling hips - this should be strictly optional.

I never mentioned wiggling. What is wiggling exactly? :confused:

I was talking about swinging the hips.

If men don't swing their hips, whilst dancing, they look wooden.

Andy McGregor
16th-December-2007, 05:31 PM
I never mentioned wiggling. What is wiggling exactly? :confused:

I was talking about swinging the hips.
If you swing your hips in one direction you have to swing them back in the other direction - this is called "wiggling". A hip swing is half a wiggle.


If men don't swing their hips, whilst dancing, they look wooden.Depends what they're doing. You shouldn't slavishly do any particular thing whilst dancing. A pendulum swings and hips shouldn't swing like clockwork on every beat - you need a bit of variety - the odd pelvic thrust for instance :devil:

Jamie
16th-December-2007, 07:11 PM
I've danced with a few women who are too busy wiggling their hips to dance.

:yeah:

Annoys the hell out of me!

drathzel
17th-December-2007, 10:48 AM
I've danced with a few women who are too busy wiggling their hips to dance.

:yeah: their timing goes and they end up all over the place. It bugs me. I have a natural wiggle (the amount of times people think i am putting it on and it is natural!) I dont over emphasise it i just let my hip drop as i step back. No extra wiggles or bambi legs (you know what i mean)!

I wish women would be happy with their natural style instead of trying to be like "her over there"

I TRY and teach ladies to let their style flow naturally and if they are not feeling comfortable then not to do it. Just take it easy and feel it!

David Bailey
17th-December-2007, 11:00 AM
Should more emphasis be put on swinging the hips in beginners classes?
No - that's a style element, in my view - it either comes naturally or not at all. It took me years of salsa dancing to get comfortable with the Wiggling Thing. Hah, and then it's taken me years of AT to learn to stop wiggling :rolleyes:

Hip sways / wiggles are not compulsory, it's perfectly possible to dance well without them.

Gadget
17th-December-2007, 11:25 AM
Most men when trying to wiggle and move their hips become mincers and steriotypically "gay". If men danced on their toes more, took smaller steps and actually transfered weight from step to step, then they would develop a natural roll to the hips.

Most women have a natural roll to their hips that comes from walking on their toes more (via high heels) and taking small steps rather than striding.

I would rather see hip wiggles taught as a "styling" thing to do when put on a spot rather than have them throw the dancer's body into contortions all through the dance ;)

Sparkles
17th-December-2007, 12:16 PM
I think we should have a non-professional 'wiggling workshop' in one of the chalets at Southport in Feb... I remember ZW and myself helping Clive Long to wiggle and body ripple at a T-jive and he was really getting the hang of it after a couple of tracks. :cool:

I'm sure there would be plenty of women that would be willing to assist in helping anyone with wiggling or body rippling issues in a similar way...? :innocent:

Miss Flicts
17th-December-2007, 01:15 PM
It definitely doesn't suit all men.

Some guys naturally get it right and look great, but plenty never get it right and look like they are doing a comedy impression of a woman.

killingtime
17th-December-2007, 02:19 PM
I think we should have a non-professional 'wiggling workshop' in one of the chalets at Southport in Feb... I remember ZW and myself helping Clive Long to wiggle and body ripple at a T-jive and he was really getting the hang of it after a couple of tracks. :cool:

I'd be up for that :D :flower:.

robd
17th-December-2007, 02:49 PM
It definitely doesn't suit all men.

Some guys naturally get it right and look great, but plenty never get it right and look like they are doing a comedy impression of a woman.

There's plenty of women who 'never get it right' too - being female doesn't automatically give you magic hips.

Trouble
17th-December-2007, 03:03 PM
There's plenty of women who 'never get it right' too - being female doesn't automatically give you magic hips.

but we all get magic breasts.!! :D :D

Cruella
17th-December-2007, 03:10 PM
but we all get magic breasts.!! :D :D

Some get the other girls' share too though. :wink:

Sparkles
17th-December-2007, 03:12 PM
Some get the other girls' share too though. :wink:

:yeah: :tears:

Trouble
17th-December-2007, 03:16 PM
Some get the other girls' share too though.

yes but not only on the chest area unfortunately :tears: :tears:

Men do not seem to mind. They are like magic. Small, big, floppy, saggy, perty, they dont care if ya wigglin ya hips if ya titties are a little on show. As if by magic, a smile appears.!! :na: Hips wot hips. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Cruella
17th-December-2007, 03:19 PM
yes but not only on the chest area unfortunately :tears: :tears:

:eek: Where else do you have breasts?

martingold
17th-December-2007, 03:19 PM
Men do not seem to mind. They are like magic. Small, big, floppy, saggy, perty, they dont care if ya wigglin ya hips if ya titties are a little on show. As if by magic, a smile appears.!! :na: Hips wot hips. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
hooray for magic breasts :na: :rofl:

Miss Flicts
17th-December-2007, 04:38 PM
There's plenty of women who 'never get it right' too - being female doesn't automatically give you magic hips.

Good point. Many ladies also look very unnatural and uncool if it doesn't come naturally, or they overdo it.

I really didn't mean to sound either sexist or judgemental - everybody's way of moving and style is different and loads of guys who don't use lots of hip movement look great on the dancefloor.

Ghost
17th-December-2007, 04:47 PM
Some get the other girls' share too though. :wink:

"More than a handful is a waste" ~ From a drunken conversation on Disney Princesses vs Barbie

http://www.aboyd.com/images/adg639.jpg
http://www.trojanhorseantiques.com/PForeverLove.jpg

Astro
17th-December-2007, 05:46 PM
Depends how big his hands are. :wink:

Astro
17th-December-2007, 05:50 PM
If you swing your hips in one direction you have to swing them back in the other direction - this is called "wiggling". A hip swing is half a wiggle.

Ah, what happened is I got confused thinking it was WRIGGLE - not wiggle.


Depends what they're doing. You shouldn't slavishly do any particular thing whilst dancing. A pendulum swings and hips shouldn't swing like clockwork on every beat - you need a bit of variety - the odd pelvic thrust for instance :devil:

A la Le Time Warp?:wink:

Mr Darcy
17th-December-2007, 05:58 PM
I'd be up for that :D :flower:.

:yeah: So who's going to help with the teaching? Will it be 'hands on'? :innocent:

Cruella
17th-December-2007, 06:37 PM
:yeah: So who's going to help with the teaching? Will it be 'hands on'? :innocent:

Probably best if it's hands off, especially as there are girls like Trouble with breasts in unusual places. :rolleyes:

MartinHarper
18th-December-2007, 01:56 AM
Why do girls swing their hips naturally, while boys have to learn?

As well as the biological and sociological reasons mentioned, there's also a difference in the movements leaders do compared to followers. Followers often dance changes in rotational direction, which leads to movement in the hips. Leaders often stand still, which leads to static hips.

I see no particular aesthetic value in swinging hips.

~*~Saligal~*~
18th-December-2007, 04:17 AM
I never mentioned wiggling. What is wiggling exactly? :confused:

I was talking about swinging the hips.

If men don't swing their hips, whilst dancing, they look wooden.
"swing hips"? or just soften their knees as they move in time with the music?
When I see a guy who looks "wooden" its usually because they're stiff in their backs and shoulders, rather than about moving their hips.

Andy McGregor
18th-December-2007, 09:09 AM
I see no particular aesthetic value in swinging hips.You wouldn't. You, obviously don't appreciate the female form. Hip movement accentuates a woman's curves - it's what makes them different from men. One of the reasons men find a woman's body attractive is because of those differences. Accentuating the differences makes them even more attractive :waycool:

geoff332
18th-December-2007, 10:00 AM
A few random thoughts...

In latin, you learn that most of the hip action comes out of the heel. For most moves - especially any moves with a step in it - the hip action is an extension of the leg action. Get the legs right, and your hips naturally move - it's easy to extend that natural movement. And, yes, heels do help. I wear cuban heels for dancing, and they make hip movement a lot easier.
Swinging hips is all well and good but, for far too many dancers, it actually gets in the way. When walking, a hip movement should accentuate the leg movement. When stationary, it should accentuate the beat. Too often I am trying to return a follow who's still half-way through wiggling their hips while the music's gone on to the next beat... hips go pear-shaped.
Everyone has a degree of natural movement in their hips. Use that, but don't try and over-do it. Use some loosening/flexibility exercises if you want more, but don't force it whilst dancing.
Hip action looks a lot nicer if you can isolate it - keep shoulders straight, frame solid and only move your body below your rib-cage. Otherwise you get a bounce in the dancing, which is just horrible.
Generally, woman moving their hips look better than men moving their hips. I often use a contrast: if my partner's doing something with a lot of hip movement, I'll lock my frame upright to make her efforts even more obvious (and, if needed, give her a better frame to work off).

Simon r
18th-December-2007, 10:21 AM
A few random thoughts...

In latin, you learn that most of the hip action comes out of the heel. For most moves - especially any moves with a step in it - the hip action is an extension of the leg action. Get the legs right, and your hips naturally move - it's easy to extend that natural movement. And, yes, heels do help. I wear cuban heels for dancing, and they make hip movement a lot easier.
Swinging hips is all well and good but, for far too many dancers, it actually gets in the way. When walking, a hip movement should accentuate the leg movement. When stationary, it should accentuate the beat. Too often I am trying to return a follow who's still half-way through wiggling their hips while the music's gone on to the next beat... hips go pear-shaped.
Everyone has a degree of natural movement in their hips. Use that, but don't try and over-do it. Use some loosening/flexibility exercises if you want more, but don't force it whilst dancing.
Hip action looks a lot nicer if you can isolate it - keep shoulders straight, frame solid and only move your body below your rib-cage. Otherwise you get a bounce in the dancing, which is just horrible.
Generally, woman moving their hips look better than men moving their hips. I often use a contrast: if my partner's doing something with a lot of hip movement, I'll lock my frame upright to make her efforts even more obvious (and, if needed, give her a better frame to work off).



:yeah:

Beat me to it

Both Nicole and I teach men and women how to walk in a dance term and this then allows them to work Via Homework on increasing the use of rolling the foot to then increase the hip movement.

Ladies and gents that try to emphasize this movement by shaking there hips are sadly misguided and usually end up out of control or looking camp.

Ghost
18th-December-2007, 11:58 AM
You wouldn't. You, obviously don't appreciate the female form. Hip movement accentuates a woman's curves - it's what makes them different from men. One of the reasons men find a woman's body attractive is because of those differences. Accentuating the differences makes them even more attractive :waycool:
I was going to post the same thing, then realised in context he probably meant
"I see no particular aesthetic value in men swinging hips"

But yes, accentuating women's curves can be a very good thing :awe:

MartinHarper
18th-December-2007, 05:51 PM
I was going to post the same thing, then realised in context he probably meant
"I see no particular aesthetic value in men swinging hips"

Nah, both sexes, in a dance perspective.

Astro
18th-December-2007, 06:04 PM
A few random thoughts...

In latin, you learn that most of the hip action comes out of the heel. For most moves - especially any moves with a step in it - the hip action is an extension of the leg action. Get the legs right, and your hips naturally move - it's easy to extend that natural movement. And, yes, heels do help. I wear cuban heels for dancing, and they make hip movement a lot easier. Exactly, and beginners don't learn footwork for quite a while in ceroc


Hip action looks a lot nicer if you can isolate it - keep shoulders straight, frame solid and only move your body below your rib-cage. Otherwise you get a bounce in the dancing, which is just horrible.
I remember Mike Ellard at the Casbah was trying to teach a sway. Lots of the class were swaying their shoulders and arms about, but below the waist nothing moved.

He spent 5 minutes teaching how to sway with the hips and to bend the kness, whilst keeping the shoulders still.


Generally, woman moving their hips look better than men moving their hips.

That's because you're a man. I love watching a male backside swinging when I'm sitting out. (Don't get to view it much whilst actually dancing with a guy - except the hatchback variations]. :devil:

Cruella
18th-December-2007, 06:26 PM
I've seen some men, at MJ, moving their hips pretty successfully, but we called it 'mincing'. :wink:

robd
18th-December-2007, 07:35 PM
I've seen some men, online, moving their hips pretty successfully but we called it shagging

Trouble
19th-December-2007, 01:36 PM
Ive seen lots of men trying to move their hips and called it car crash dancing.

You want to look away but cant. :D :D

gebandemuishond
20th-December-2007, 03:02 PM
Ive seen lots of men trying to move their hips and called it car crash dancing.

You want to look away but cant. :D :D

:yeah:

Actually what's even worse is when men wear heeled dancing trainers and shorts. First of all, shorts should NEVER be worn dancing in my opinion, but with heels it makes the hips waggle in a very very creepy way, even when they're just walking around the room.

Dan

straycat
20th-December-2007, 03:31 PM
First of all, shorts should NEVER be worn dancing in my opinion

Never say never (http://youtube.com/watch?v=J5qLQ_HbrRI):wink:

Astro
20th-December-2007, 03:49 PM
I've seen some men, at MJ, moving their hips pretty successfully, but we called it 'mincing'. :wink:


I've seen some men, online, moving their hips pretty successfully but we called it shagging


Most men when trying to wiggle and move their hips become mincers and steriotypically "gay". If men danced on their toes more, took smaller steps and actually transfered weight from step to step, then they would develop a natural roll to the hips.


It's the natural roll that is step led, and therefore doesn't mess up timing. In fact it accentuates timing.

straycat
20th-December-2007, 04:02 PM
I've seen some men, online, moving their hips pretty successfully but we called it shagging

No - shag doesn't involve much hip action at all. (http://youtube.com/watch?v=qTnxCBfOcNU) You're probably thinking of something else...

ducasi
20th-December-2007, 05:12 PM
Never say never (http://youtube.com/watch?v=J5qLQ_HbrRI):wink:
My! They're a bit bouncy, aren't they?!

EricD
13th-January-2008, 04:52 PM
First of all, shorts should NEVER be worn dancing in my opinion


Not just your opinion - there's a whole thread Are shorts ever acceptable (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/lets-talk-about-dance/8946-shorts-ever-acceptable.html).

I found a nice illustration "Scheiße - it's a Swing Party, not a Swingers' Party - Let's dance ! (http://blip.tv/file/514060)" (can I say 'Scheiße' on here ?) The whole playlist is mostly worth watching just for fun - HopSpot Cologne (http://hopspot-cologne.blip.tv), IMO (maybe skip the mostly-German ones using the thumbnails to the right ?).

On the topic of wiggling, I notice that men and ladies are different. (Wow!)
Men tend to wiggle in 'C' shapes - )()()()( 000, but ladies tend to wiggle in 'S' shapes SZSZSZSZ 888 with a stationary navel. This can make leading synchronised footwork difficult, especially if arm-leading, rather than body-leading. It tends to have the opposite effect to the intended one.