Leading a follower into a turn

[JiveLad]

I know this is probably a basic thing........however last night, I learned an important lesson.

Let me explain the context: at S'Funk - and I danced with someone who was clearly a very experienced and competent dancer. At the end, I paused, then asked if she would mind giving me some honest feedback on how I could improve (I've only requested this kind of post-dance feedback 4 or 5 times in my dance 'career').

Well, we talked for a few mins - and she came up with 3 things that she had noticed when dancing with me.

All of these were immediately useful - and I applied in the next dance to make things 'smoother', which worked fine.

The first, and simplest was leading my follow into a spin. The technique (bad habit) I had developed was to include a kind of circular 'flick' of my wrist, to accentuate the spin at the point when my hand is approaching the top of the follow's head) . I suppose I always thought that unless I do that, then the follow is not going to spin.

This lady ('Sue') explained I had no need to do that. And she is right - and it can be annoying for the lead to do it that kind of way (I think).

Anyway - this was her first bit of feedback - and I was pleased that I had asked her.

Just interested to know if this makes sense to anyone....?:nice:

[Tiggerbabe]

to accentuate the spin at the point when my hand is approaching the top of the follow's head) . I suppose I always thought that unless I do that, then the follow is not going to spin.
Are you really talking about spinning, or turning?

[JiveLad]

Are you really talking about spinning, or turning?

:blush: .....er.....turning - I think.....(ie rotating where my hand is still to connected to my partner)......as opposed to a spin, where follow is rotating on the spot without (usually?) any connection.

Can you change the title....?

[tanjive]

The technique (bad habit) I had developed was to include a kind of circular 'flick' of my wrist, to accentuate the spin at the point when my hand is approaching the top of the follow's head) . I suppose I always thought that unless I do that, then the follow is not going to spin.


Taking the arm straight to the followers head and turning your hand in small (emphasis on small) halo round would normally turn the lady. The speed throughout the halo is constant if want to keep the lady on the spot. If you start turning the halo with extra speed on one side the will travel in that direction. You can with practice get the lady to rotate travelling away form you, but you need to chase the follower. Travel towards where you need to walk backwards. Or even travel 90degrees perpendicular to you. With any of these you need to walk at the same speed to maintain a comfortable connection in arms and avoid pulling her off balance by not keeping the hand rotation over the followers center.

Constructive feedback is always helpful, and it is good you are comfortable to ask.

[Gadget]

I lead a turn by shifting my weight onto the mirror of the foot my partner is going to turn on, and begin to raise my hand. The hand aims to go between my partner's shoulder and cheek, in the direction I want them to turn. As it reaches about face height my wrist & elbow raise more while I continue the curve to above the crown of my partner's head. My wrist/arm stay fixed here while my wrist rotates and my finger maintains the connection in a small circular motion providing support rather than leading.

If I want my partner to turn more than once in sucession, I apply a 'hiccup' of downward pressure and lead the start of the next turn with my finger (the rest of my arm remains above the crown)

If I want them to do a double (speed) turn, then I actually lead the turn rather than just providing support.

To lead travelling turns, I simply move in the direction I want the follower to go; my arm/hand is attached to me, so the follower follows or breaks the connection :shrug:

To take my arm back down, I lower it towards the centre of my body and apply a gentle lead back to stay connected as the follower steps back.
If I want them to step forward out of the turn I need to lead it from above the head by starting to lead an opposite turn (to cancel out/block the current motion) and start to move backwards before I lower the hand.

[DundeeDancer]

I got some "constructive feedback" on this a couple of weeks ago. A follower said on turns and returns I was taking her hand too far above her head and that was throwing her off balance.

I didn't think I was taking her hand that far above her head just 6 inches or so and I said I did that so I would avoid my hand from hitting her head. They didn't seem convinced.

Last week there during class another follower who I know to be experienced dancer held onto my hand and didn't let me raise it as high as I would have like. She pulled my hand down and pulled it into her face, my thumb which wasn't gripping but sticking out a little managed to brush against her eye and I quickly pulled my hand out of there but it did manage to make her eye water.:tears:

So how high do followers prefer there hand to be taken on turns and returns, remembering us clumsy guys need some room for error.:blush:

[Andreas]

:blush: .....er.....turning - I think.....(ie rotating where my hand is still to connected to my partner)......as opposed to a spin, where follow is rotating on the spot without (usually?) any connection.

Can you change the title....?

Hmm This to me is not the difference between spin and turn.

Turn = slow, lady basically does it herself after being led into it.

Spin = fast and the lead is driving the entire move.
-> free spin = no hand contact
-> assisted spin = what is described above for Spin

I haven't read through the whole of Gadget's post but I think I agree with what he wrote.

To lead a turn (in my definition) you are actually more signalling to the lady than make her do the move. I.e., you raise your hand to about eye level above the shoulder that is going to be the axis. At most, you might need to give a little turning incentive at this point. In the majority of all cases she is going to take over and do the turn the way she thinks fits best.

To lead a spin you will have to try to bring you hand in front of her forehead and then create a halo around her head. The others have described that in more detail, I think. This is a fast motion you are leading here, so your hand position should not move, hence there should be good tension in your hand/wrist/arm so the lady can use it for balance should she require assistance.


EDIT: As for asking for feedback, this is generally a good thing but don't over-do it. Many dancers go out to have fun. If you are asking for feedback you will put people on the spot and they MAY have to try very hard to be diplomatic. Not everybody enjoys that. Or, the other way around, some may not manage being too diplomatic and you might find they don't tell you only three little things but 15 and you feel put down. ;)

[Ghost]

EDIT: As for asking for feedback, this is generally a good thing but don't over-do it. Many dancers go out to have fun. If you are asking for feedback you will put people on the spot and they MAY have to try very hard to be diplomatic. Not everybody enjoys that. Or, the other way around, some may not manage being too diplomatic and you might find they don't tell you only three little things but 15 and you feel put down. ;)
Plus there's no guarantee they're actually right

[straycat]

Spin = fast and the lead is driving the entire move.

Not necessarily, no. I wouldn't presume to claim to know The Way to lead spins... but if I'm leading them, I lead the setup, provide all the tension / compression that my partner might need to work off, then I let her drive it. I find this easier for both parties, she can pick her own pace (I indicate what I want by the degree of tension - but it's up to her to choose) and there's no risk of me pushing or pulling her off-balance.

[Gadget]

EDIT: As for asking for feedback, ...
oh yea - also try and ask before a dance rather than after it: most good dancers who I would ask for feedback would simply shrug and say "was I meant to be paying attention?" :wink:

[straycat]

oh yea - also try and ask before a dance rather than after it: most good dancers who I would ask for feedback would simply shrug and say "was I meant to be paying attention?" :wink:

:confused: Most good dancers I know would have been.

[David Bailey]

:confused: Most good dancers I know would have been.
Um, dunno about that. Couldn't they be, you know, lost in the moment? Or, trying to dance rather than remember what their partner was doing wrong?

If you know someone wants feedback, you approach a dance differently. It's like running a test, to my mind - you look for the weak spots, you try and provide a lot of variations, you take note of problems, and you don't try to enjoy it so much.

[Caro]

:confused: Most good dancers I know would have been.

Not that I am a good dancer (that doesn't stop me from posting, mind you), but if I'm asked for feedback at the beginning of the dance I will pay more attention to potential 'mistakes' or 'inaccuracies' in the lead than if I was just relaxing and enjoying the dance. In fact I'll get more aware of times when I had to compensate to make something work, rather doing it without thinking about it (which is what I would do most often, and I would not necessarily know what I did during that dance, if that makes sense).

[Gadget]

Exactamon.

Ask before hand and your partner is more likley to give you a considered, thought out response and have spotted stuff.
Ask after and they are relying on remembering what didn't quite work - where they compensated (and if they do this automatically, then it has to be something quite memorable that went "wrong")

[killingtime]

If you know someone wants feedback, you approach a dance differently. It's like running a test, to my mind - you look for the weak spots, you try and provide a lot of variations, you take note of problems, and you don't try to enjoy it so much.

Totally agree. I might notice things in a dance that I'd be able to comment on but I stand a much better chance if I'm actually asked to pay attention. I also worry, in feedback, that I'm not giving my partner any advice that isn't actually "this is the way I'd prefer". I'm not really wanting to give people advice on how to follow me better (after all if I think a follower is slightly off balance and using me as a support in a first move is it because of the way I'm leading it, that is am I getting her to focus on something that's my problem).


So how high do followers prefer there hand to be taken on turns and returns, remembering us clumsy guys need some room for error.:blush:

About an inch or two tends to help the follower rotate on the spot. Higher can knock her off balance. If the follower is trying to bring your hand lower it's a good indication that she thinks it is too high. When following I don't tend to get leads who take my hand too high but then I'm pretty tall (6') so most people who lead me are either my height or, in the vast majority of cases, shorter.

[JiveLad]

EDIT: As for asking for feedback, this is generally a good thing but don't over-do it. Many dancers go out to have fun. If you are asking for feedback you will put people on the spot and they MAY have to try very hard to be diplomatic. Not everybody enjoys that. Or, the other way around, some may not manage being too diplomatic and you might find they don't tell you only three little things but 15 and you feel put down. ;)

Yes - agreed - that is why I have ony ever done it 4 or 5 times in 2 years. And only where I sense it would be willing and openly given - which it has been on each occasion. (Another point is that they were all with people who I had never danced with before). Oh - and I always asked after - and it worked fine! I have never been looking for feedback on specific moves missed or leads which weren't clear (if there were any) - more any general impressions - or specific repeated areas for improvement.

[Andreas]

Not necessarily, no. I wouldn't presume to claim to know The Way to lead spins... but if I'm leading them, I lead the setup, provide all the tension / compression that my partner might need to work off, then I let her drive it. I find this easier for both parties, she can pick her own pace (I indicate what I want by the degree of tension - but it's up to her to choose) and there's no risk of me pushing or pulling her off-balance.

Your quote of my post excluded free spins, which I only mentioned later on. As for assisted spins, I don't think I would agree with you if we are talking about the same thing. I have yet to see a follower do ten double-speed spins on her own. It just isn't going to happen. Sure, most good spinners can spin themselves twice or three times (if you are really lucky four times) at that speed, but then that was it. If you are afraid to pull the lady off balance then it is either more confidence to put it in practice or just more practice that is missing. I am not saying that this cannot happen at all. But it should not happen. By driving a spin you are providing support in the first place. Doing multiple spins will get many followers a dizzy at some point. If they were over-ambitious after you led them into the move and then no longer drive the motion they will wobble the spin to an end that could potentially "floor" her. By driving the motion from start to finish you can not only counter-act imbalances, you will also be able to move them into a position where you can safely (and elegantly!) bring the spin to an end.

As I said, my definition of a spin is a fast rotation. So we may very well be talking about two different things. :flower:

[JiveLad]

Your quote of my post excluded free spins, which I only mentioned later on. As for assisted spins, I don't think I would agree with you if we are talking about the same thing. I have yet to see a follower do ten double-speed spins on her own. It just isn't going to happen. Sure, most good spinners can spin themselves twice or three times (if you are really lucky four times) at that speed, but then that was it. If you are afraid to pull the lady off balance then it is either more confidence to put it in practice or just more practice that is missing. I am not saying that this cannot happen at all. But it should not happen. By driving a spin you are providing support in the first place. Doing multiple spins will get many followers a dizzy at some point. If they were over-ambitious after you led them into the move and then no longer drive the motion they will wobble the spin to an end that could potentially "floor" her. By driving the motion from start to finish you can not only counter-act imbalances, you will also be able to move them into a position where you can safely (and elegantly!) bring the spin to an end.

As I said, my definition of a spin is a fast rotation. So we may very well be talking about two different things. :flower:

Interestingly, on Saturday, one lady said "spin me, spin me, spin me....." and I led her into something like 7 or 8 consecutive spins and she loved it.....crikey! Most women I know would be dizzy-ish after 2 or 3......

:drool:

[Andreas]

Interestingly, on Saturday, one lady said "spin me, spin me, spin me....." and I led her into something like 7 or 8 consecutive spins and she loved it.....crikey! Most women I know would be dizzy-ish after 2 or 3......

:drool:

Yup, there are some masochists around (as I already revealed in another topic). :innocent: Which is great, you can spin them for as long as it takes you to remember enough moves for not only the current dance but the next one, too. :whistle::na: