Dancing with Beginners/Int/Adv

[Ghost]

Dancing with different people requires different skills.

Dancing with the top dancers requires innovation, creativity, precision, and so on.
Dancing with intermediates requires on-your-toes lightning reactions to ensure you can adjust to unexpected surprises.
Dancing with beginners requires complete clarity and focus.


It's good to have all these skills, and to practice and develop them.

I like this - it's clear and simple to remember. Any other distinctions between dancing with beginners / int / advanced?

[Martin]

I like this - it's clear and simple to remember. Any other distinctions between dancing with beginners / int / advanced?

I am confused with the dancing with advanced dancers thing and the list given...

Can't remember it all.

I just play around with the music, not sure what else I do (probably not much), but the advanced dancers seem happy to dance with me....:nice:

[Ghost]

I am confused with the dancing with advanced dancers thing and the list given...
My take - blame David :devil:

Innovation - they're beyond the "moves, moves, moves" stage and open to following

Creativity - generally they're more open to being inspired and doing cool stuff

Precision - that's the easy one. You can use much more subtle leads, but the catch is they have to be more precise - I confused one lady just by stretching slightly while leading to get a cramp out of my back; she tried to follow it bless her


Can't remember it all.
Write it on the back of your hand :whistle:


I just play around with the music, not sure what else I do (probably not much), but the advanced dancers seem happy to dance with me....:nice:
That'll do nicely :wink:

(Oh and please can we avoid the whole 'what's an advanced dancer" discussion :flower: )

[bigdjiver]

... just play around with the music ...Works for me.

[tanjive]

Don't agree with this at all. You ought to be precise and clear with whomever you lead. Forgive any mistakes by any dancer of whatever level. The only difference is the most experienced like to play most with music. For me this is enjoyable to both and gives the freedom to move away from moves. Once an invitation of play is excepted go for it. You just would not expect less experienced dancers to be able. So reduce those invites so they are not left hanging with no lead. Others may not have the confidence to so just lead.

[Ghost]

Don't agree with this at all. You ought to be precise and clear with whomever you lead.
True, but it's a different kind of precision. An advanced dancer will be able to follow subltities that a beginner won't. Doesn't mean you're not clear and precise with a beginner, just that you go about it in a different way.

Just as an aside, I'm deliberately looking for distinctions rather than
"this is good for everyone" and in this instance generalisations are fine.

[MartinHarper]

Dancing with excellent dancers requires me to be comfortable with their excellence.
Dancing with intermediate dancers requires me to be confident in my own mediocrity.
Dancing with novice dancers requires me to be accepting of their newness.

[tanjive]

Precision is precision. It is precise or it is not. There is no sutulties to it. To dance sutuliely requires you have it.

Your list was emphasing the how to dance. How I dance is the same with every follower. What I lead is different. They are distinct things.

Lead clear for everyone, but lead more move X for beginners and lead more play invitations for those that are confident to follow. What you lead I think is at least partly influenced by the followers expectations of what the dance is.

A beginner follower may have the very general expectation (rule) most moves are followed by a return. An improver follower may be happier with travelling returns. An advanced dancer expects no rules, probably no real patterns and would like some way to influence the general flow of the dance as the music dictates. As a lead I try to meet the expectations of the follower at the different levels and so lead different things. To sum up the less experienced the more returns are put in, the more experienced the more control of interpretation I can let the follower have.

[Ghost]

Your list was emphasing the how to dance. How I dance is the same with every follower. What I lead is different. They are distinct things.

So you would lead a first move the exact same way regardless of the skill of the follow?

[tanjive]

No. I would not lead the same first move. You are confusing the HOW with WHAT again. A beginner I might lead the ceroc method of first move as that is what they are most comfortable with. Virtually any one else would be led an Amir style first move. Often I lead into a first move and then lead the follower tin a walk a turn and then exit either forward, back or to the side. That is several variation on the one move already. The how it is lead precisely, in time, maybe pace changes with tempo, controlled smooth is the same. The what is the variations.

[Ghost]

No. I would not lead the same first move.
So am I correct in understanding that you have 3 distinct sets of moves / variations and you use the one appropriate to the skill of the follow? Fair 'nuff


You are confusing the HOW with WHAT again.
T'ain't nice to shout :flower:

[tanjive]

I do not have distinct sets of moves set A and set B. A general rule though is dance to the level of the follower. Add more dynamic, alternative variations where you can that suit the music and the follower can handle. If possible slightly stretch the follower as this will test you are leading. It also is fun and challenging. That is simpler to remember than DJ's list.

Now its time for me to go and practice.

[LilyB]

I am confused with the dancing with advanced dancers thing and the list given...

Can't remember it all.

I just play around with the music, not sure what else I do (probably not much), but the advanced dancers seem happy to dance with me....:nice:

:yeah: This is so true. For me at least. Which makes it difficult (for me) to understand why so many men profess that they feel too intimidated to ask 'advanced' women to dance, as they believe they do not know sufficient complex/interesting/clever etc. moves to keep the 'advanced' woman happy. As Martin suggests, just play around with the music and do whatever feels appropriate (which sometimes includes leading no moves at all:waycool:).

Which leads me back to Ghost's original post (quoting a post from DJ) - I therefore find that I, personally, do not agree that dancing with the top dancers "requires innovation, creativity, precision and so on". DJ's take on dancing with the 3 levels mentioned isn't wrong IMHO; it is just that the skills he refers to as a requirement are in my opinion merely an asset.:flower:

[Ghost]

:yeah: This is so true. For me at least. Which makes it difficult (for me) to understand why so many men profess that they feel too intimidated to ask 'advanced' women to dance, as they believe they do not know sufficient complex/interesting/clever etc. moves to keep the 'advanced' woman happy. As Martin suggests, just play around with the music and do whatever feels appropriate (which sometimes includes leading no moves at all:waycool:).
:D

Which leads me back to Ghost's original post (quoting a post from DJ) - I therefore find that I, personally, do not agree that dancing with the top dancers "requires innovation, creativity, precision and so on". DJ's take on dancing with the 3 levels mentioned isn't wrong IMHO; it is just that the skills he refers to as a requirement are in my opinion merely an asset.:flower:
True enough. David's post got me thinking about the mindset / approach to dancing with dancers of different experience more. So I'm not approaching this as a "set in stone" thing - more exagerating the differences for the point of clarity.

Mind you apparently I don't exist anymore......
(I've been saying I'm a figment of my own imagination for years though :na: )

[David Bailey]

Which leads me back to Ghost's original post (quoting a post from DJ) - I therefore find that I, personally, do not agree that dancing with the top dancers "requires innovation, creativity, precision and so on". DJ's take on dancing with the 3 levels mentioned isn't wrong IMHO; it is just that the skills he refers to as a requirement are in my opinion merely an asset.:flower:
Yeah, that's a better way of putting it. The original post was in context of "approach" or "skillsets requirements" - basically, what are the things to focus on to get the best dance experience. Obviously, they're all Good Things, it's just a question of prioritizing.

Absolute clarity of lead is always a nice thing, for example, but I think you can get away with a bit more waffle for the sake of experimentation when dancing with an advanced partner, because you're confident that she'll be good enough to read you even if you occasionally sacrifice clarity for innovation - and even if you fluff it up, she'll usually find a way to style out of it.

Similarly, it's good to be innovative and creative in all dancing - but if you go OTT with this when dancing with beginners, you may put them off, so focussing on clarity at all times is IMO the priority there.

[timbp]

So am I correct in understanding that you have 3 distinct sets of moves / variations and you use the one appropriate to the skill of the follow? Fair 'nuff


Why do they have to be distinct?

I have moves that form the base of my dance, but what I actually do depends on the music and what my partner actually does in response to anything I tried to lead, and how good the connection is with my partner.

I certainly don't classify each partner into a discrete skill level and lead only particular moves to partners in each category.

[timbp]

Absolute clarity of lead is always a nice thing, for example, but I think you can get away with a bit more waffle for the sake of experimentation when dancing with an advanced partner,
Sometimes with an advanced follower I will deliberately add some waffle (more precisely, I will stop giving a clear lead) just to see what happens. Some of my best dances have been when I've deliberately relaxed the lead and the follower has recognised and done something amazing.

So the more advanced the follower, the less precise I might be with my lead --- the main factor in deciding the precision of my lead is how well I think I can react to (follow) whatever the follower might do.

[Martin]

....I, personally, do not agree that dancing with the top dancers "requires innovation, creativity, precision and so on". DJ's take on dancing with the 3 levels mentioned isn't wrong IMHO; it is just that the skills he refers to as a requirement are in my opinion merely an asset.:flower:

Which was just as well when I was a total beginner, all I had was a smile, the will to give it a go and a desire to be social and chat to people. :blush:

The advanced dancers were happy to dance with me, and often asked me to dance, and very rarely laughed at my ballroom style rise and fall, that it took some time to shake off. :really:

[Ghost]

Why do they have to be distinct?
I was trying to understand this

No. I would not lead the same first move. You are confusing the HOW with WHAT again. A beginner I might lead the ceroc method of first move as that is what they are most comfortable with. Virtually any one else would be led an Amir style first move. <snip> The what is the variations.


I certainly don't classify each partner into a discrete skill level and lead only particular moves to partners in each category.
Me either

[Gadget]

No. I would not lead the same first move. You are confusing the HOW with WHAT again. Dosn't the "how" define the "what"? What makes a first move a first move? How much does it need to change before it isn't a first move any more? ... perhaps I'm now confusing "Where" with "How"? :wink:

I just dance and try not to confuse my partner too much :innocent: The experiance level of the dancer may limit what I do, but I can do some things with one beginner that I couldn't do with another - everone is an individual {I'm not}.

[geoff332]

As I've said many times (albeit mostly in my head), the substantive difference between a novice dancer and and advanced dancer is not the moves they know, but their ability to dance. Moves are a very, very small part of this ability; the real differences lie in ability to lead/follow, musicality, confidence, control, presentation and the like.

If I lead a move properly and it's not followed, then I know that they can't follow properly, not that they don't know the move. I also lead different dancers differently - because of the way they follow. Some good dancers, I can't find a good way of leading. And sometimes - quite often, perhaps - my brain stops talking to me and I can't lead anything properly.

This means I can do largely the same basic set of moves with anyone - adjusting to their individual abilities and knowledge (as well as my own limitations, of course) not some abstract concept of their level of dancing. I can, and have, taken novice dancers through some pretty advanced moves because they were able to follow my leads well. I've danced with some very good dancers and not been able to lead them into anything more than fairly basic moves because I couldn't find a compatible style.

[tsh]

I don't think I adapt my style at all to take account of my partner's experience. The outcome will likely be different, and the start might be different, but I usually manage to confuse everyone by leading something in a way that they don't understand me. Advanced doesn't always mean complicated.

Sean