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Caro
14th-November-2007, 09:17 PM
Inspired by some comments on this thread (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/lets-talk-about-dance/14694-if-goes-wrong-men-really-blame.html), I wondered how much should one compensate for their partner when dancing (socially).

Let me explain.

When you dance with a great partner, they make the dance work, whatever level you're at and despite your inaccuracies (or mistakes even) in your lead or your follow. We all do it to some extent, and probably often uncousciously: we're just dancing and enjoying the dance. You only realise it when you dance with somebody with those extraordinary compensating skills and suddendly it feels like the dance is flawless - that has happened to me numerous times when dancing with way more 'advanced', or experienced dancers. Yet that doesn't mean that there is nothing in your dancing to improve, although an experience like that may leave you feeling like there isn't (hence you're not looking at yourself for improving and just may think that the rest of your partners just aren't very good).

However, if you dance with a partner who doesn't compensate for all your inaccuracies (either deliberately or not), you get a chance to realise that some stuff you're doing are not working as intended, and therefore can seek to improve them.

Second point, also triggered by the thread mentioned above. While it is incredibly enjoyable to have a lead who doesn't lead anything beyond your abilities, again if everybody was like that you would never really improve, or never as much as if you are (slightly) stretched when dancing with somebody more experienced. Ever thought after a dance: wow, I had no idea I could do that ? Feels great, doesn' it ? (for unexperienced dancers this might be a lean or a drop, for a more experienced one reacting to the tiniest change in connection, for example).
But very often in order to get there you will have to had 'messed up', or missed completely, that before (i.e. some people or one person would have had to have tried that with you - and if they are great, you may not even have noticed you missed it the first times).

I'm only talking about a slight stretch here, not leading something obviously out of your follow's abilities, but may be leading that thing with a particular attention, may be more frame or connection or whatever than you would have used on somebody else. (and for follows, just compensating ever so slighty for an almost accurate lead).

In the end, I think it's about reaching a balance between short term enjoyment (doing your utmost to make the dance work at all costs) and longer term improvement (being simply accurate in both leading and following)...

What's everybody's experience ?


I know that when I dance with a beginner or somebody who I feel is not very confident with their dancing, I'll do my utmost to make the dance work and give them a good experience, so that hopefully they'll get more confident and keep dancing.
But when I dance with a more experienced dancer, I will do my best to 'just follow' (assuming I'm in 100% following mode and no play - this is a theoritical example :whistle:) because I want to follow exactly what they are leading: after all, they may lead me into something completely new / alien and I don't want to make assumptions and try and 'help' them (and get it wrong :blush:).
Sometimes this means not following a move you may have recognised because it wasn't lead it accurately, which may cause some upset to your partner (especially if they had never questioned their lead on that move before).
The problem is, this only tends to work with people you don't dance with too much: otherwise you 'get used to them' and will, even uncousciously, adapt and compensate for each other (but then that makes the dances work better...).


I'm curious, what other people do ?

ducasi
14th-November-2007, 11:18 PM
Interesting question Caro. :respect:

When I'm dancing with someone who doesn't have the same experience as me, I will compensate as much as I can. I will try to stretch my partners a little though if I think things are going well, but I think working towards an enjoyable dance is usually more important than giving a lesson in 'things you can't do'.

I think also that the experience you get with a better dancer isn't always because they are compensating for your deficiencies – by being better they may just bring out the best in you. (I could go into a car analogy if you like. ;))

I think the question is slightly different for followers than for leaders, but I can't put the difference into words just now.

Ghost
15th-November-2007, 12:29 AM
I view it slightly differently

It's not about compensating. It's about getting inside the music with that person. That means doing what works for that moment.

Sometimes it's the right moment to go for something and mess it up - laughter is a wonderful thing.

"Many women, many dances - many answers"

or to put it another way


It depends!

(I win!! :clap::clap:)

Realistically I think the only way to determine your dancing skill is to dance with someone and get them to give you honest feedback. I do however think that there are different skill sets for dancing with beginners, intermediates and advanced, so just because you're good at one doesn't mean you're good at the others.

TA Guy
15th-November-2007, 01:19 AM
Without getting into the detail, I just got myself in a minor tizzy over what counts as compensation (I decided you compensate for, in the loosest sense of the term, errors), and adjustments (I decided things like an extra tall partner or where your partner does something that is in no way an error, but just different or unexpected). I then decided there was a huge, 'grey area' of crossover between the two where either term could be used :) So...

...I tend to think of a dance as a whole series of compensations and adjustments anyway. Very, very few, if any, dancers are inch perfect all the time (including me believe it or not. Ho Ho Ho :)).

Dance is a series of moves (or movements for the more hip amongst us :)) and to make those moves flow, readjustment and compensation is often necessary.

The only time I personally fall outside that is occasionally with beginners. An example is those that step back way too far on the extension. Sometimes, and then only when I've danced with them more than a few times and can see a possible bad habit forming, I will hold my ground and not follow them. Not compensate.

Of course, the better you get, and the better your partner, presumably the less compensation and adjustment is actually required, but even then, aside from that very rare beginner issue, IMO all the best dancers do it simply whenever it is necessary and I think it's integral to good dancing even if it's sub-conscious.

I mean, how you can you possibly dance well and not compensate and re-adjust...
...No move, music, or partner, is 'one size fits all' and no one is perfect :)

straycat
15th-November-2007, 10:12 AM
I view it slightly differently

It's not about compensating. It's about getting inside the music with that person. That means doing what works for that moment.

Sometimes it's the right moment to go for something and mess it up - laughter is a wonderful thing.

"Many women, many dances - many answers"
:yeah:

I think the 'blame the leader' thread probably helped cast a 'compensatory' slant on the whole adaptive leading thing, but Ghost's hit the nail on the head - what it's really about is working with your partner to get the best dance experience you can. Personally, I think it's the only way a dance like this can really work well.

To look at a couple of Caro's points:


When you dance with a great partner, they make the dance work, whatever level you're at and despite your inaccuracies (or mistakes even) in your lead or your follow. We all do it to some extent, and probably often uncousciously: we're just dancing and enjoying the dance. You only realise it when you dance with somebody with those extraordinary compensating skills and suddendly it feels like the dance is flawless - that has happened to me numerous times when dancing with way more 'advanced', or experienced dancers. Yet that doesn't mean that there is nothing in your dancing to improve, although an experience like that may leave you feeling like there isn't
As Ghost says - it isn't the 'compensating' skills that're making you feel like that - it's the fact that the communication / connection you have with your partner is giving you the confidence and direction to do things you didn't realise you could - but it's still you that's doing them. Personally, I think dancing with people like that is one of the best ways to improve - the more you do it, the more you get the pure feeling of dancing to that standard, and the easier it becomes in less idyllic circumstances. Try thinking of it as a potential-unlocking process.

It can work both ways as well - I've had the far-too-occasional dance with rockstar dance goddesses where we've played off each other so well, that as the dance went on I've found myself leading things I had no idea I could do. I still haven't the foggiest how that can happen, but it can and does. I just wish it happened more often...


Second point, also triggered by the thread mentioned above. While it is incredibly enjoyable to have a lead who doesn't lead anything beyond your abilities, again if everybody was like that you would never really improve, or never as much as if you are (slightly) stretched when dancing with somebody more experienced. Ever thought after a dance: wow, I had no idea I could do that ? Feels great, doesn' it ?
In the other thread, we did talk about not doing moves our partners couldn't cope with - but we're talking about not-a-hope-in-hell territory, rather than a knee-jerk avoidance of any move they might not be completely familiar with. Stretching your partner (and yourself) is always part of the fun, and essential when it comes to learning.

TheTramp
15th-November-2007, 01:36 PM
I read this as "How much should you compensate your partner for a dance".

I reckon that usually I'd have to pay £5 for one dance with someone, and £20 if I wanted two....

DS87
15th-November-2007, 01:52 PM
I read this as "How much should you compensate your partner for a dance".

I reckon that usually I'd have to pay £5 for one dance with someone, and £20 if I wanted two....

:rofl:

I agree with alot of the coments here reference thinking that you are not so much compensating for your partner as working with your partner to strive for the best possible dance experience.

However I do find that in WCS I have to stop myself compenstating sometimes as I try to focus on my technique and compensating will occasionally lead me back into my bad habits that I am trying very hard to eradicate. I am sure that this is manly due to my limited experience in WCS and that it is a dance with a much more rigid structure (though some rules are made to be broken!):devil:

I enjoy the flexibility of MJ that allows for rapid changing of plans when things don't go exactly as planned.:waycool:

Paul F
15th-November-2007, 02:37 PM
Good thread :)

I have always said that what makes a good 'partnership' is a person's ability to compensate for the other when necessary. Things will always happen, elements will always go wrong. This is different though to social dancing.

IMO the issue of compensation in social dancing depends largely on what type of dance you are doing and comes down to the lead/follow aspect in that dance.

For example, in WCS you may try to compensate for your partners absolute lack of flair by adding some of your own (if you are brave enough). The trouble with trying to compensate in WCS though is down to the natural space that each person has. A classic example is connection. I have seen people desperately trying to create a connection that just doesnt exist. Most of the time it looks more strange than it did before!

On the other hand you have styles such as ballroom. I was at a social last night and found myself dancing with a lovely lady who didn't really know too many patterns or even the base elements e.g. heel turns etc. As the lead and follow for this style is considerably different than WCS I was able to tone down what I was sttempting while relying on the close hold lead and follow element to throw in a few variations now and again.

Both of these examples are using what could be termed 'compensation' but how that happens varies due to the nature of the dance.

In the end I would probably use the term 'accommodate' or 'adapt' rather than compensate but, yes, its something I would do all the time.

Paul F
15th-November-2007, 02:43 PM
I enjoy the flexibility of MJ that allows for rapid changing of plans when things don't go exactly as planned.:waycool:


:yeah:
I agree with the 'flexibility' point. It is this freedom that I think creates it's own challenges but also gives it's own rewards.

NZ Monkey
15th-November-2007, 08:56 PM
First of all


As Ghost says - it isn't the 'compensating' skills that're making you feel like that - it's the fact that the communication / connection you have with your partner is giving you the confidence and direction to do things you didn't realise you could - but it's still you that's doing them. Personally, I think dancing with people like that is one of the best ways to improve - the more you do it, the more you get the pure feeling of dancing to that standard, and the easier it becomes in less idyllic circumstances. Try thinking of it as a potential-unlocking process.

It can work both ways as well - I've had the far-too-occasional dance with rockstar dance goddesses where we've played off each other so well, that as the dance went on I've found myself leading things I had no idea I could do. I still haven't the foggiest how that can happen, but it can and does. I just wish it happened more often...
:yeah: I couldn't have put it better myself.



However I do find that in WCS I have to stop myself compenstating sometimes as I try to focus on my technique and compensating will occasionally lead me back into my bad habits that I am trying very hard to eradicate. I was once in a lesson where a top WCS Pro was asked a question about compensating for your partner. His advice was:

Don't

His argument was that you wouldn't be doing her any favours because then she'd never find out what she was doing wrong and improve. In fact, his words were "I will not make myself a worse dancer to compensate for someone elses mistakes". This really surprised me as in every other way he seemed to be a really easy-going guy.

I prefer to take a less extreme position myself. I make a judgement call on whether I think they're the sort of person who really want's to dance and improve or the kind of person who is only there for a good night out with a lot of other people. I comprensate a lot more for the second group. I'm sure I've made mistakes in those judgements before but to the best of my knowledge I've never ruined anyones night and as long as they're having fun I'm happy.

This works both ways of course....I'm also happy for followers to stretch me and expose where I need to improve when they're in a position to do so :hug:

David Bailey
16th-November-2007, 11:06 AM
I was once in a lesson where a top WCS Pro was asked a question about compensating for your partner. His advice was:

Don't

His argument was that you wouldn't be doing her any favours because then she'd never find out what she was doing wrong and improve. In fact, his words were "I will not make myself a worse dancer to compensate for someone elses mistakes". This really surprised me as in every other way he seemed to be a really easy-going guy.
Hmmm... maybe he was talking about a learning situation rather than a social dancing situation?

Also, I think the word "compensation" is not ideal - I'd prefer to say "adjustment". Every dancer adjusts to a new partner, based on their physical characteristics, their personal style, and so on. Adjusting to their experience level is the same sort of thing.

pjfrad
16th-November-2007, 11:28 AM
I was once in a lesson where a top WCS Pro was asked a question about compensating for your partner. His advice was:

Don't

His argument was that you wouldn't be doing her any favours because then she'd never find out what she was doing wrong and improve. In fact, his words were "I will not make myself a worse dancer to compensate for someone elses mistakes".


I would prefer when dancing for people to not compensate for my mistakes. One of the things I really like about dancing is the opportunity to learn more and get better. If people don't let me make mistakes that will never happen.

In freestyle I will sometimes compensate to make a move work, but more commonly I'll let what ever it was I was trying to do fail, but keep the flow of the dance going and just move onto the next thing. If the follower is curious about why it didn't work or feels that they did something wrong that they can improve they'll ask, alternately they'll just assume it was my fault (not saying that it wasn't in the first place) and continue happily dancing. If it was something that I recognise as my fault I can then think about why it happened and what went wrong instead of thinking about how to make it work anyway.

In competition I want my partner to compensate for all of my mistakes and make us look good :flower:

Peter

ducasi
16th-November-2007, 11:47 AM
I would prefer when dancing for people to not compensate for my mistakes. One of the things I really like about dancing is the opportunity to learn more and get better. If people don't let me make mistakes that will never happen.
That's all very well at the level you're at. When you're a beginner making mistakes on every third step you make, it's nice to dance with a partner who can make it feel that your mistakes don't matter so much...

bigdjiver
16th-November-2007, 11:48 AM
:tears: I was compensated last night. :tears:
The intermediate class contained an "advanced" move. I was playing catch-up because I joined late (shirt change).
First try failed, because of catch up.
Second try lady moving on bailed out before she got to me, muttering "too difficult". I watched carefully.
3rd try I set about going through the move very deliberately, making sure I got each step. My partner evidently thought "too slow" and "compensated", only she got it wrong.
4th try. New partner. same thing.
This move ends with a dip. I do not like complex moves that end with a dip. I consider that there is too much chance it will go wrong and people will try dips when they are set up wrongly for them. So at this point I too bailed out.:sad:

Lory
16th-November-2007, 11:52 AM
I haven't read the whole thread but here's my view

During the lesson, (and the freestyle practice, between lessons) one should follow, exactly what the lead leads, highlighting any mistakes i.e. do no compensating whatsoever.

But during freestyle, you should do whatever it takes (and your able to do) to make the dance run smoothly and feel great for your partner! :yeah:

TA Guy
16th-November-2007, 11:57 AM
I was once in a lesson where a top WCS Pro was asked a question about compensating for your partner. His advice was:

Don't

His argument was that you wouldn't be doing her any favours because then she'd never find out what she was doing wrong and improve. In fact, his words were "I will not make myself a worse dancer to compensate for someone elses mistakes". This really surprised me as in every other way he seemed to be a really easy-going guy.


I guess it depends on the environment.
In a competition, not compensating would be suicidal.
In a learning environment, not compensating makes a lot of sense (unless it gets to the demoralizing stage).
In a social environment, I guess it's each individuals call since a social environment can often be a learning environment too. On balance tho, I wouldn't approach a social dance with the attitude; 'I dance for me and sod my partner' which is how it could be interpreted.

I guess it's one of those 'lies to children' like 'it is always the leads fault if it goes wrong' :)

Lory
16th-November-2007, 12:05 PM
Just to add.. sometimes i even go over the top the other way...

if I'm dancing with a beginner, who's gone wrong several times and looking a bit demoralised.:sad:

I'll often chirp in and say 'Sorry' :blush:that was my mistake :hug:..even though I know full well it wasn't - just to make them feel better! :yeah:

I can't bare it, when I see someone beating themselves up all the time! :sad:

DundeeDancer
16th-November-2007, 12:33 PM
Hi Caro, interesting questions, this thread might run and run!

I have two different mind sets. One for Club nights and One for party nights.

On party nights I try to make the dance flow as easily as possible and try to get as much enjoyment from the dance for me and my partner as much as possible. So I would compensate as much as I can.

Club nights are more like a training night for me, I experiment with new moves more and when they don't work as expected I usually comment with thinks like, "hee hee back to the drawing board with that one!", "oop I messed that one up!":blush:, or "hey where are you off to?", if they spin out of control "hey you just to damn quick for me!":na:. Some times I say "Lets try that one again"…only if it's really bad I say, "lets step over that one a bit more slowly" but that is only for cases when my partner isn't getting something really basic like a straight forward "in and out", there coming in on the out part or something really fundamental.:o

As I'm just a new intermediate myself so followers often give me advice and I welcome it if it's done with a smile. :grin:

One follower who I happened to finish the intermediate class with, so in fact I hadn't asked to dance with, just fate. Well she won't compensate at all on the new routine we had just learned. She would wait for the clear lead, scowling at the place where I should nudge her to lead the move properly. I could tell she was a good dancer and that I was in over my head but I thought, at least I'm learning how to lead properly here, cool. But she got more huffy :mad: the second time I made mistakes and in the end I got a bit nervous and jumpy:o. So much so I got a bit clumsy and managed to clip her with my wrist on the top of her head. That made me laugh internally…(what goes around comes around)

So am sticking with club night for learning and party night for partying.:clap:

Ghost
16th-November-2007, 01:06 PM
As a follow, if something goes wrong I generally deliberately don't try and fix it. My experience is that if I've misunderstood a lead etc, it's much easier for the lead to do all the fixing. If we both try and fix it, and we try in different ways, it's a lot harder for the lead. (Plus it's their fault anyway.....:whistle: ) . I will flow with whatever they do to fix it though (or try to anyway)

MartinHarper
16th-November-2007, 01:59 PM
I think the word "compensation" is not ideal - I'd prefer to say "adjustment". Every dancer adjusts to a new partner, based on their physical characteristics, their personal style, and so on. Adjusting to their experience level is the same sort of thing.

I like to adjust to my partner. I'm aware that I'm not as good at that as I would like. For example, ideally it would be good to adjust the way I move to the way my partner moves, so that we complement nicely. Also, I have to adjust to myself. I'm not good enough at Balboa to be musical, so I don't try to be musical when dancing Balboa.

I don't have a problem with things going "wrong", so I don't attempt to adjust my dancing to remove the possibility of mistakes, either from me or my partner.

Caro
18th-November-2007, 06:58 PM
I think also that the experience you get with a better dancer isn't always because they are compensating for your deficiencies – by being better they may just bring out the best in you.

That's also probably true. There's less likelyhood to make mistakes or be inaccurate when your partner is flawless (at least for the level you're dancing at).


It's not about compensating. It's about getting inside the music with that person. That means doing what works for that moment.


Well, of course it's great when you are getting completely into the music and lost in the connection with your partner... in those instances, I wouldn't even been thinking, let alone about compensating... but let's face it, that doesn't happen that aften. To me at least.

So in all those others dances with partners with whom I haven't the best of connection, to a track that I don't particularly like, there are times when I can decide, as a follow, to do my utmost to make the dance work, or to follow accurately what is lead. I can see pros and cons in both: short term enjoyment vs long term improvement.
The thread is really about that: what to do in those cases, if you feel your partner doesn't have confidence issues (which, of course, you could read wrong)?



Without getting into the detail, I just got myself in a minor tizzy over what counts as compensation (I decided you compensate for, in the loosest sense of the term, errors), and adjustments (I decided things like an extra tall partner or where your partner does something that is in no way an error, but just different or unexpected). I then decided there was a huge, 'grey area' of crossover between the two where either term could be used :) So...


I think that's a difficult but very important difference.
I would say you always adjust to your partner, no matter their level.
Compensation to me is about (for a follow), to do something that is not lead but that you have guessed / recognised was intended to be lead (I won't go into the chances of getting that wrong :innocent:).
For a lead, it would be changing your initial intended move because the follow has done something that wasn't lead (turned in the wrong direction, lost her balance, anticipated something else, etc).



I think the 'blame the leader' thread probably helped cast a 'compensatory' slant on the whole adaptive leading thing, but Ghost's hit the nail on the head - what it's really about is working with your partner to get the best dance experience you can.

What if by doing that you are hindering your partner's progress ?


I read this as "How much should you compensate your partner for a dance".

I reckon that usually I'd have to pay £5 for one dance with someone, and £20 if I wanted two....

Where do I send the bill ? :whistle:



However I do find that in WCS I have to stop myself compenstating sometimes as I try to focus on my technique and compensating will occasionally lead me back into my bad habits that I am trying very hard to eradicate.

I think that's very true and is a big difference with MJ. Because there are more rules, there is more opportunity to compensate when one of the partners gets it wrong.

I have to say as well, again unless I feel there's a major confidence issue, that if I am 'working' on improving some aspect of my dancing, I too will deliberately not compromise it, even if it was needed to make the dance work. It's a short-term pain for a long term gain. :nice:



I have always said that what makes a good 'partnership' is a person's ability to compensate for the other when necessary.

True, and partnership will be something you will be judged on in a competition environment.



IMO the issue of compensation in social dancing depends largely on what type of dance you are doing and comes down to the lead/follow aspect in that dance.


Agree, as I said MJ is a much more flexible dance, there may be more scope for adjusting rather than compensating.



In the end I would probably use the term 'accommodate' or 'adapt' rather than compensate but, yes, its something I would do all the time.

Agree, I would adapt all the time as well. Not necessarily compensate.

Ghost
18th-November-2007, 10:15 PM
Well, of course it's great when you are getting completely into the music and lost in the connection with your partner... in those instances, I wouldn't even been thinking, let alone about compensating... but let's face it, that doesn't happen that aften. To me at least.

Pretty much since I started Ceroc I've been figuring out how to adapt / compensate - call it what you will. Many lists where involved, many notes written half asleep at 3 o'clock in the morning. A year of doing taxi classes as a beginner.

About six months ago I finally reached the point where not only can I now do it without thinking, I'm better than if I actually think about it. *sigh of relief*



The thread is really about that: what to do in those cases, if you feel your partner doesn't have confidence issues (which, of course, you could read wrong)?
<snip>

What if by doing that you are hindering your partner's progress ?
To be honest I don't really get this, so I'm interested to see how the thread goes. :flower:

Lots of questions :flower:

1. So what? :flower: It's a social dance it's not like there's a point where you go "Yay I've finally mastered Ceroc, now I'll go learn origami" ;)

2. Is it better for someone actively seeking to improve to use other methods - ask for feedback, privates etc. I recall someone saying Witty asked everyone for feedback at a weekend and her dancing improved dramatically

3. You could continue the arguement that the lead should deliberate challenge the follow as much as possible

I can see the danger in someone going "Oh well I dance perfectly well with X, but Y's terrible. So it must be Y's fault" when in fact X is compensating. ChrisA has mentioned something similar to the effect of the more he placed the blame on himself and less on the follow, the better he got at leading.

Dunno - On the floor I want to dance with you not teach you, is how I see it at the moment :hug:

MartinHarper
18th-November-2007, 11:38 PM
Compensation to me is about (for a follow), to do something that is not lead but that you have guessed / recognised was intended to be lead.

There's a philosophical point here. If I have recognised what my leader wants me to do, then arguably he has led me to do it. Maybe he hasn't led it the "right" way, but if leading is about communicating intent, then that communication has happened.


For a lead, it would be changing your initial intended move because the follow has done something that wasn't lead (turned in the wrong direction, lost her balance, anticipated something else, etc).

If my follower spins the wrong way, I have to compensate. I can compensate well or I can compensate badly.

straycat
19th-November-2007, 11:10 AM
I think the 'blame the leader' thread probably helped cast a 'compensatory' slant on the whole adaptive leading thing, but Ghost's hit the nail on the head - what it's really about is working with your partner to get the best dance experience you can.
What if by doing that you are hindering your partner's progress ?

I don't honestly see how that could be.

Here's a couple of ways I could go about leading. I could lead everything in exactly the same way each time, no matter what my partner does... and if something doesn't go the way I intended, I could just let it happen and let her fix it herself, so she can 'learn' not to make that 'mistake' again.

Or I could attempt to lead in a way which suits her, and if something doesn't go the way I planned, I can adapt to it, support her, and attempt to make something good out of it.

Let's look at the first one for a moment.
1) Every single lead is different. Who am I to say that my lead is the 'correct way'? Who am I to force every single follower to adapt to my leading style when I'm not going to reciprocate?
2) Where in this do I get to learn and improve?
3) Where's the fun?

The second option really isn't restrictive. Example: last night, I was dancing with a lady who sprung a new one on me... she basically hijacked the lead, and role-reversed us for a couple of dozen bars or so. It wasn't pretty (my following skills are frankly quite lacklustre) but it was fun.... and I don't believe a restrictive lead would have allowed for this. Adaptive leads make such things much easier... hence (I think) allowing more latitude to develop a follower's skills... not less. IMOFO. :flower:

Caro
19th-November-2007, 09:41 PM
I see your points guys about adaptive leading and social environment vs teaching, that's fair enough. I guess the reason why I think about that compensating thing is because I, personally, am in a place (WCS wise) where I want to improve as much as I can, and I can see how a lead who manages to compensate in a way that makes me completely oblivious to my mistakes is in fact probably doing my progression less good than harm. To some extent. (there are some advantages in that too, builds up your confidence, may try new things, provides a great dance, etc).


.
1) Every single lead is different. Who am I to say that my lead is the 'correct way'? Who am I to force every single follower to adapt to my leading style when I'm not going to reciprocate?


why if there was a right and a wrong ? Or even a right and a less so right way ?
Again taking WCS as an example, there are a set of rules that everybody will agree with. If you don't respect them, your partner will have to compensate for that in order to still make the dance work.
I don't know about lindy, what if you decided you didn't want to rock step anymore ? Wouldn't that be a 'mistake' that your partner would have to compensate for in order to make the dance work ?

TheTramp
19th-November-2007, 09:47 PM
Again taking WCS as an example, there are a set of rules that everybody will agree with.

There are?

And they are??

NZ Monkey
19th-November-2007, 10:29 PM
If my follower spins the wrong way, I have to compensate. I can compensate well or I can compensate badly.To be fair though, it's usually pretty obvious to everyone involved when someone has turned the wrong way.

I think Caro is talking about more subtle compensation that is unlikely to be noticed by the person with the "fault" unless it's made obvious somehow.



Let's look at the first one for a moment.
1) Every single lead is different. Who am I to say that my lead is the 'correct way'? Who am I to force every single follower to adapt to my leading style when I'm not going to reciprocate?
2) Where in this do I get to learn and improve?
3) Where's the fun?For a start, looking for the Correct Way(TM) to lead is possibly the wrong way of looking at it. A better example would be the the correct way to not yank the followers arm out of their socket. A follower can compensate to avoid injury but this compromises some of the fundamentals of leading and following.

Secondly, if your partner is doing the same for you then you'll learn too. Of course, this is running on the assumption that you trust the person not compensating. This comes back to my previous statement about making judgement calls on a partners motive for dancing. Work with them, not against them :flower:

Finally, I find a lot of enjoyment in getting better. When a partner makes it obvious to me where I need to improve, and then I actually do improve - it feels great!



The second option really isn't restrictive. Example: last night, I was dancing with a lady who sprung a new one on me... she basically hijacked the lead, and role-reversed us for a couple of dozen bars or so. It wasn't pretty (my following skills are frankly quite lacklustre) but it was fun.... and I don't believe a restrictive lead would have allowed for this. Adaptive leads make such things much easier... hence (I think) allowing more latitude to develop a follower's skills... not less. IMOFO. There is a difference between being a restrictive lead and one who doesn't compensate much. Invitation leads are still invitational regardless of how much you're prepared to compensate for a partner.

NZ Monkey
19th-November-2007, 10:38 PM
There are?

And they are??I think you know quite well Trampy :rolleyes:

Dancing in a slot is the obvious one. Before you point it out, we all know the slot can travel or be changed, or even ignored sometimes but it makes a huge difference to co-ordination between both dancers. The afore-mentioned changes are definitely the exception rather than the rule.

The use of an ancour step to set the post and help provide connection and elasticity is another. Although there are many different ways to perform the step the above is true for all of them.

The list could go on if I didn't think you were just stirring trouble :na:

TheTramp
19th-November-2007, 10:41 PM
The list could go on if I didn't think you were just stirring trouble :na:

Me? Never....

Personally, what you've listed is fine, maybe nice even, but breakable.

I'd suggest that there's only one rule that shouldn't be broken. Dance to the music. The rest are.... guidelines! :na:

Minnie M
19th-November-2007, 11:08 PM
..........I'd suggest that there's only one rule that shouldn't be broken. Dance to the music. The rest are.... guidelines! :na:

:yeah:
IMHO everything should revolve around the music, especially timing and that is what makes most dance styles different

I hate having to switch my head out of the music to enable me to dance with a bad (not dancing to music) dancer :sad:

martingold
20th-November-2007, 12:35 PM
for me i just dance
If my partner enjoys the dance then i am bound to enjoy it as well

one of my biggest concerns as a taxi dancer is the experienced dancer who will go to someone who is brand new in a class then show off with moves that the new person couldnt possibly follow or could even hurt the new dancer

my philosophy is with new dancers keep it simple but dance the moves to the best of my ability oh and smile that way the dance feels good to the new person and they will enjoy the evening as much as i always do

David Bailey
20th-November-2007, 12:56 PM
one of my biggest concerns as a taxi dancer is the experienced dancer who will go to someone who is brand new in a class then show off with moves that the new person couldnt possibly follow or could even hurt the new dancer
Whilst I totally agree with you, I'd replace "experienced dancer" with "bloody-intermediate dancer".

An experienced dancer wouldn't do that.

martingold
20th-November-2007, 01:36 PM
Whilst I totally agree with you, I'd replace "experienced dancer" with "bloody-intermediate dancer".

An experienced dancer wouldn't do that.
true although i know quite a few that do

straycat
21st-November-2007, 10:46 AM
Think we might, to some degree, be talking at cross-purposes here, but I'll bite anyway :D



For a start, looking for the Correct Way(TM) to lead is possibly the wrong way of looking at it.

It's absolutely the wrong way, yes - but I suppose my point is that I'm either adjusting to my partner or I'm not. If I'm not, I'm insisting that she dance my way. If I am, she still needs to adapt to me to some degree, but I'm coming at least half-way to meet her, and a better dance should ensue. I need to add as well that I really don't think I can dance any other way these days - it's become so ingrained.


A better example would be the the correct way to not yank the followers arm out of their socket. A follower can compensate to avoid injury but this compromises some of the fundamentals of leading and following.

Well - this is kind of on the level of 'The correct way to drive without running into trees.' - I like to think we've been discussing much subtler stuff. Once you get to the arm-yanking stage, I think both followers and leaders are justified in doing whatever they need to in self-defence.


Finally, I find a lot of enjoyment in getting better. When a partner makes it obvious to me where I need to improve, and then I actually do improve - it feels great!

There's still plenty of scope for that. I'll go so far as to say... if I'm dancing with someone who has difficulty following X, and I've tried several ways of leading it, with various degrees of success, I'm much better placed to comment on her dancing / following than if I've only tried the one which didn't work (should she ask) - and even should she not, she's had the experience of dancing the move, and building on muscle-memory. Which is a lot more helpful than failing to do the move.

MartinHarper
21st-November-2007, 11:46 AM
A better example would be the the correct way to not yank the followers arm out of their socket. A follower can compensate to avoid injury but this compromises some of the fundamentals of leading and following.

The follower could "compensate" by having frame. Would that compromise the fundamentals of lead/follow?

Gadget
21st-November-2007, 03:24 PM
I think that there are really good followers out there that compensate and follow everything 'perfectly' - they move where you intended (even if you havn't lead it that well), they style with a space and give your lead back, they 'tune in' to the same music as you... and in general are just really good dancers.

Personally I find followers who follow perfectly really hard to dance with because I have to rely on my own creativity: Normally I use the "mistakes" to inspire what I'm doing next and where I'm going next.
I find that with the 'perfect' follower, there is very little sense of partnership within the dance - they simply do whatever you are leading them to do.

The really, really good ones break this mould and can hi-jack without breaking the flow of the dance and you can feel when they are looking for some space. The dance becomes a partnership again, and you are both looking for cues within the music.


As a lead, I compensate every dance as much as I can. I'm dancing to give my partner the best dance I can give them. This involves showing them off, not showing them up.


BTW Can any follower follow perfectly enough to stop compensating for a slightly off lead? If you follow the slot perfectly, but my lead was not to the slot (perhaps compensating for my own lazyness :blush: ) do you follow the lead, or compensate?
I don't think that there are any followers who can actually follow exactly, but I think that this is part of what makes the really good dancers really good.

Ghost
21st-November-2007, 04:20 PM
BTW Can any follower follow perfectly enough to stop compensating for a slightly off lead? If you follow the slot perfectly, but my lead was not to the slot (perhaps compensating for my own lazyness :blush: ) do you follow the lead, or compensate?
I don't think that there are any followers who can actually follow exactly, but I think that this is part of what makes the really good dancers really good.
Beginners?

Admittedly I'd seen you dancing before-hand and know a fair bit about your style from the Forum, so when I followed you I was (at least trying to) follow whatever you led, rather than what I thought it was supposed to be. If you want to go slightly off-line there's plenty of good reasons why you might want to do so, who am I to stop you?

MartinHarper
21st-November-2007, 06:46 PM
To be fair though, it's usually pretty obvious to everyone involved when someone has turned the wrong way.

Not always. If I'm really on top of my game, and get very lucky, I can sometimes con a follower into thinking that I meant for her to do whatever random extra spin she went for. Or whatever. It comes down to adapting to my partner in a way that she doesn't even notice or adapting to her in a way she does notice. Or, for a different take, adapting in a bad way or adapting in a good way.

As long as I'm dancing with my partner, "not adapting" isn't really an option. Or at least, I can't think of an example where I could do that.

Andreas
22nd-November-2007, 01:11 PM
Inspired by some comments on this thread (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/lets-talk-about-dance/14694-if-goes-wrong-men-really-blame.html), I wondered how much should one compensate for their partner when dancing (socially).

As much as necessary to make the dance enjoyable. Anything less means deliberate self-deprivation.

RedFox
22nd-November-2007, 11:53 PM
I would say you always adjust to your partner, no matter their level.
Compensation to me is about (for a follow), to do something that is not lead but that you have guessed / recognised was intended to be lead...
For a lead, it would be changing your initial intended move because the follow has done something that wasn't lead (turned in the wrong direction, lost her balance, anticipated something else, etc).
:yeah:
I can't think of anyone I wouldn't adjust my dancing to - which doesn't necessarily mean 'playing safe' all the time; it depends on who I'm dancing with. It's when both partners adapt to each other and the music that that magical connection can be made. But compensating for 'the unintended / unexpected' is necessary from time to time too - and part of the fun!

Alan Doyle
3rd-September-2008, 11:52 PM
If he's a new lead, you keep compensating for your partner's inability to lead, they are never going to learn to lead properly.

If he messes up let him he has to learn how to lead.

It's the hardest job for the man to lead and the hardest job for the lady to follow and not anticipate what's coming next

Caro
4th-September-2008, 12:02 AM
If he's a new lead, you keep compensating for your partner's inability to lead, they are never going to learn to lead properly.

If he messes up let him he has to learn how to lead.

It's the hardest job for the man to lead and the hardest job for the lady to follow and not anticipate what's coming next

Ha. I would never have guessed. Thanks for such an insightful answer, this has been killing me for the past 10 months. I feel so relieved now. :worthy:

DavidB should be worried he will soon lose his 'The Oracle' tag :whistle:

DavidB
4th-September-2008, 02:52 AM
DavidB should be worried he will soon lose his 'The Oracle' tag I lost it a long time ago. I think it should go to someone else anyway, and I don't post (or dance) enough anymore.