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View Full Version : Learning new dances: does MJ help or hinder?



David Bailey
13th-November-2007, 09:05 AM
In some ways, the fact that I know and am comfortable with MJ, gives me less incentive to step outside my comfort zone and commit to another dance. So if I didn't have MJ as a safety net, I might progress faster with other dances.

On the other hand, I've learnt a lot from MJ, and it does give me that safety net, so that I can always dance somewhere - so my confidence can be knocked, but it's easier to recover from it.

So, I'm not sure whether MJ is holding me back, or it's supporting me - possibly a bit of both, I guess.

What are other people's thoughts?

timbp
13th-November-2007, 11:58 AM
What are other people's thoughts?

I know I can dance, because beautiful women seek me out to ask me to dance MJ with them.
So I ought to be more confident: "I know I can master this".

On the other hand, I hate being a beginner.

I have tried WCS, and I love the dance. But I have tended to dance MJ rather than WCS because I can dance MJ.

Similarly, although I have been trying to learn AT, I keep going back to dancing MJ socially because I am good at it, where I am not (yet) good at AT.

The difference between AT and WCS is I see more opportunity to dance AT in Sydney than to dance WCS. So there is more reason to put the effort into learning AT.

Andy McGregor
13th-November-2007, 12:49 PM
My opinion (please note Caro, I do say it when it's true :flower: ) is that MJ is a comfort zone for those who learnt it first. Plus, there's plenty of it about and you can do it to most music. Most other dances need a more careful choice of music - therefore we do MJ when we hear an MJable tune rather than say "ooh, this is a Cha Cha Cha, I'll find a partner that can do it".

My guess, based on the number of dedicated ballroom dancing schools is that there are still more people learning ballroom dancing. At ballroom dancing classes you learn many dances. None of them inhibits the others and many of the skills are common across more than one dance.

I think that the skills you learn at MJ can also be carried over to other partner dances. However, I think the problem lies in the way that many people are taught MJ - they get little or no individual feedback so they develop a catalogue of bad habits. It would be a great hindrance if they took those bad habits into other, stricter, dance forms.

Gadget
13th-November-2007, 01:50 PM
I would say that most of it would be a help - knowing how to move, about connection, moving your partner, listening to the music, learning a routine... etc.

Some of it would hinder - going into 'automatic', improvising, erm.... I can't really think on anything else.

JonD
13th-November-2007, 02:17 PM
I would say that most of it would be a help - knowing how to move, about connection, moving your partner, listening to the music, learning a routine... etc.
I totally agree. MJ may be very accessible to beginners but it can also be extremely challenging. All the fundamentals of partner dancing seem to be there and, from my limited knowledge, I imagine experience of those fundamentals gained in MJ can be transferred to other partner dances.

I can't think how MJ would do anything but help - but then I'd never danced a step until I discovered MJ and my only subsequent experience is with AT and bits of Lindy, Salsa and WCS. For me, the big thing is the confidence learning MJ gave me: if I hadn't learnt MJ I doubt if I'd have had the confidence to ever attempt AT. That confidence means I believe that I could learn any partner dance to a reasonable level of competence if I'm prepared to concentrate and practice.

straycat
13th-November-2007, 02:33 PM
I think some of the skills I picked up in MJ have helped me in other dances, yes - but it has also been a huge hinderance. Nowadays, I've learned that to learn a new dance, I need to put aside the others that I know during lessons. Otherwise I just end up doing MJ or Lindy with a Tango flavour, for example, instead of Tango.

When I learned Lindy, it took a long long time to realise to what extent I was doing 'lindy' flavoured MJ. It was only when I managed to start correcting that that I realised what an amazing dance it was. And I do see a huge number of people who make the same mistake.

I do think that learning MJ can help a lot when learning other dances - but people should beware of transferring skills and techniques from MJ to other dances, because you really do risk missing out on what makes those dances special.

David Bailey
13th-November-2007, 03:38 PM
When I learned Lindy, it took a long long time to realise to what extent I was doing 'lindy' flavoured MJ.
Same with me and salsa - it took me probably 2 years to stop bouncing around :blush:

JonD
13th-November-2007, 04:10 PM
I've learned that to learn a new dance, I need to put aside the others that I know during lessons.
You're right - I hadn't thought about that element. I don't remember it being an issue in the early days of AT but it certainly was with the little bit of Lindy & Salsa I've done. Mind you, it didn't take me long to realise that I had to be careful to draw only on the relevant bits of my MJ experience and put the rest aside.


On the other hand, I hate being a beginner.
That can be a negative - MJ is so accessible that even a complete biff like me felt I could dance after about 4 months. Going from MJ, at which I'd become vaguely competent, to feeling unable to dance AT at even the most basic level was truly horrible. I remember having a fairly major "crisis" after I'd been learning AT for about 18 months and still felt I was incapable of expressing anything in the dance.

straycat
13th-November-2007, 04:35 PM
Same with me and salsa - it took me probably 2 years to stop bouncing around :blush:

I confess, wrt Salsa, I don't practice what I preach. In fact - I simply don't do Salsa. I do some kind of Lindy / MJ / Salsa blend, with made-up moves and the odd cross-body thrown in. This is mainly because I decided quite a while back that I really didn't have time to actually learn Salsa, so I did the next best thing, and learned a way of dancing to Salsa rhythms. Although some of the local salsa follows seem to find this confusing for some strange reason... :whistle:

David Bailey
13th-November-2007, 04:43 PM
I confess, wrt Salsa, I don't practice what I preach. In fact - I simply don't do Salsa. I do some kind of Lindy / MJ / Salsa blend, with made-up moves and the odd cross-body thrown in.
OK.... That sounds, erm, interesting :D


This is mainly because I decided quite a while back that I really didn't have time to actually learn Salsa, so I did the next best thing, and learned a way of dancing to Salsa rhythms.
Well, to be fair, me too - I simply move to the rhythm and throw in whatever movements I feel appropriate at the time. I suspect most of us multi-dancerals will use bits from one dance in another.

In fact, that's also pretty much how I do MJ, but I'm a bit more rusty with salsa, as I've only been a dozen times in the past year or so, and I didn't go at all for a couple of years before that. OTOH I probably peaked higher with salsa than with MJ.

Andy McGregor
13th-November-2007, 05:00 PM
I probably peaked higher with salsa than with MJ.Must fight it, must resist...

... NOooooooooooo...


.. so, you went to Salsa for what? Four weeks? :innocent:

David Bailey
13th-November-2007, 05:09 PM
.. so, you went to Salsa for what? Four weeks? :innocent:
Good guess.

Only 516 weeks out - by your standards, that's dead-on :na:

Ghost
13th-November-2007, 05:29 PM
I think it's a glass is half empty / half full thing

You can look at dancing style xyz and go
"Arghhhhhhhhh I'm truly appauling :blush:"

Or you can go
"Hey ho, only another 5 years to go till I can walk. But in the meantime I can console myself with lovely dances in style abc and every now and then I'll get a moment in xyz too :clap:"

jemessex
13th-November-2007, 05:44 PM
I see most are saying that MJ has hindered the way they dance other styles...but what about from the other aspect.
Can we have some opinions from salsa, lindy, street, jazz, ballroom dancers etc :respect: who learnt MJ after they had learnt their main dance and whether their main style of dance hindered the way they learnt MJ.
Why do have this notion that MJ is perceived as the weakest style of dance??

David Bailey
13th-November-2007, 05:51 PM
Why do have this notion that MJ is perceived as the weakest style of dance??
It's more that it's the "entry" dance - classically, people try MJ first because it's easy to pick up, then move onto something else when they hit limitations.

Plus, this is (sort of) an MJ forum :)

jemessex
13th-November-2007, 05:59 PM
It's more that it's the "entry" dance - classically, people try MJ first because it's easy to pick up, then move onto something else when they hit limitations.




Listening to and reading the media you would have thought that salsa and ballroom are the ones that people try first

Caro
13th-November-2007, 06:05 PM
To be honest, I think what MJ brings to otherwise non-dancers is truly phenomenal: after a few months you realise that you can:
- move in a coordinated fashion with a partner, one leads, one follows
- do that to music, and in time
- actually find it easy and enjoy dancing

It seems fairly trivial for most of us now, but it is a big deal. I, for a start, use to think that I would never be able to do that (having failed miserably at both rock'n'roll and salsa).

I dread to think what it would have been like going to AT or WCS with no prior dance experience what-so-ever. I dread to think what it would be like to teach WCS to a group of non dancers :eek:

Yes, when you move on to a different dance you will have to work on your MJ 'bad habits' (and after spending a lot of time and money on fixing that with WCS teachers, I know about that, believe me) and learn new technique. But try and imagine learning it from stratch, having to worry about coordination, moving with a partner, on the music, in addition to all the other footwork and technique stuff ??? Not a chance it would have happened, to me anyway.

TA Guy
13th-November-2007, 06:05 PM
Hard to answer since you either have MJ experience or you don't, but I've been much more willing to try new dances since becoming an MJ old man, so I would answer it helps.

It depends on the dance tho. I've found WCS a close relative of MJ and I don't understand people who say they love WCS because of the extra slink, smoothness, better connection etc. These are all good attributes in MJ as well, and I've found they interchange pretty well perfectly. My forays into WCS have not impacted on my MJ at all as far as I can tell and as a result, (if I had a local class/freestyle), I would be a regular WCS'er :)

On the other hand, my one taster class of AT did nothing so much as demonstrate the differences between the two dance styles. I can't help but feel my MJ might be a hinderance and any attempt by me to learn this dance would necessitate a large drop in the standard of my MJ (as I had to rewrite 'good for MJ', but 'bad for AT' habits) and (to me, at this point in time) that's not worth the price. In a few years maybe :)


I think in the end a lot of it comes down to an individuals style. My style as developed in MJ over the years seems to suit WCS, and probably it would suit certain flavours of Lindy as well, on the other hand, the 'walkie' (for want of a better description) dances don't seem to naturally suit me. For others it must be the other way round.

ducasi
13th-November-2007, 06:19 PM
Yes, when you move on to a different dance you will have to work on your MJ 'bad habits' (and after spending a lot of time and money on fixing that with WCS teachers, I know about that, believe me) and learn new technique. ...
I don't think of my MJ habits as 'bad' – just 'different'.

But that's not the main problem for me – it's the frustration of knowing when you're practising your new dance, just how much better you could be if you allowed yourself to do the dance you already knew.

One of my main biggest reasons for giving up WCS was the frustration of being stuck learning lots of fixed patterns while I was missing the musicality I have in my MJ dancing. Perhaps if I had stuck at it I would soon have reached the stage where I could WCS musically, but I never though the effort worth the reward – I get enough enjoyment from MJ and don't think that WCS would give me any more.

robd
13th-November-2007, 06:25 PM
I've found WCS a close relative of MJ and I don't understand people who say they love WCS because of the extra slink, smoothness, better connection etc. These are all good attributes in MJ as well, and I've found they interchange pretty well perfectly.

Without revisiting the 'MJ & WCS are similar/dissimilar dances' debate I'd say there may be 3 reasons why people say those things

1 - They base their opinion of WCS on the YouTube pros who are better (and you'd expect them to be given that they do it for a living) in those areas than the top MJ dancers

2 - Many of the regular UK WCS dancers that I know are also MJ dancers and they can often look as smooth and connected dancing MJ as dancing WCS

3 - The music played more often for WCS dancers is more suited to that style of dancing than the music at your regular MJ night

ducasi
13th-November-2007, 06:34 PM
I'd give a 4th reason...

4 - Followers are given more time and less pretzels.

;)

Caro
13th-November-2007, 06:37 PM
I don't think of my MJ habits as 'bad' – just 'different'.


different or not, if you want to learn a dance where a MJ habit goes against a particular technique point of that dance, you'll have to fix it in some way shape or form if you want to do that dance properly. Hence what is a perfectly good technique in MJ (or AT, WCS, chacha, whatever) can be a 'bad habit' (i.e. wrong) in another dance. There's nothing Manichean about that really.

robd
13th-November-2007, 06:45 PM
4 - Followers are given more time and less pretzels.



I'm certain that if someone looked hard enough they would find a video on YouTube of a WCS dance featuring a pretzel.

I did a couple of pretzel variations with Sparkles in the Chill Out room at Hammersmith Saturday night - very nice they were too. Almost as much fun as my current cheesy fav Double Handed Back 2 Back with Man's Duck Under which I pulled out more times than I remember that same night. Maybe I am getting bored with WCS and it's time to start learning Ceroc :waycool:

Andy McGregor
13th-November-2007, 07:04 PM
Ceroc :waycool:What, you want to learn a brand name? :confused:

You can already spell it, there's nothing more to learn :innocent:

On the other hand, you might like to progress from WCS to Modern Jive. It's a lovely dance with none of the complicated footwork of WCS - it's so much easier to pop in a pretzel if you are dancing MJ :innocent:

Nessiemonster
13th-November-2007, 10:42 PM
I learnt salsa prior to MJ, to a pretty good standard. I found MJ incredibly frustrating to start with because it seemed to have no 'substance', and I didn't know what to do with my feet, which I felt should have a more 'active' part in the dance.

As a result of doing MJ my salsa has suffered. I now have to concentrate hard on the timing and footwork, though I still love it and it's possibly still my overall dance of choice.

Having said that, I've learnt a lot of other technique through MJ, principally connection, but more because I've been specifically looking to improve my technique and dancing.

I've recently started to learn ballroom (and would learn AT if there was some a little closer than 150 odd miles away!) I'm able to apply the connection that I've learnt in MJ, but I'm finding the footwork more challenging (meaning transfer of weight every time, rather than the floor patterns themselves). I feel quite sure if I'd come to it straight from salsa this wouldn't be such an issue. I'm trying to bring some of this back into my MJ to make my dancing smoother, but it's easier said than done. I know of at least one dancer who will be very happy when I've got this weight transfer thing sorted. The posture I'm learning from ballroom is a breath of fresh air!

Overall MJ has had positive and negative effects on my dancing, but they probably balance each other out, with the overall effect of continued improvement in my general dancing abilities.

blackisleboy
14th-November-2007, 12:21 AM
I learnt salsa prior to MJ, to a pretty good standard. I found MJ incredibly frustrating to start with because it seemed to have no 'substance', and I didn't know what to do with my feet, which I felt should have a more 'active' part in the dance.

As a result of doing MJ my salsa has suffered. I now have to concentrate hard on the timing and footwork, though I still love it and it's possibly still my overall dance of choice.

Having said that, I've learnt a lot of other technique through MJ, principally connection, but more because I've been specifically looking to improve my technique and dancing.

I've recently started to learn ballroom (and would learn AT if there was some a little closer than 150 odd miles away!) I'm able to apply the connection that I've learnt in MJ, but I'm finding the footwork more challenging (meaning transfer of weight every time, rather than the floor patterns themselves). I feel quite sure if I'd come to it straight from salsa this wouldn't be such an issue. I'm trying to bring some of this back into my MJ to make my dancing smoother, but it's easier said than done. I know of at least one dancer who will be very happy when I've got this weight transfer thing sorted. The posture I'm learning from ballroom is a breath of fresh air!

Overall MJ has had positive and negative effects on my dancing, but they probably balance each other out, with the overall effect of continued improvement in my general dancing abilities.

I didn't know you were a salsero nessa! I tried, I really tried to enjoy salsa, but the music just drove me nuts after a few songs.

Interesting what you say about mj footwork. It's something that was beginning to worry me, that I seemed to be dancing from the waist up, and my feet were not doing anything terribly exciting, but being exposed to wcs at Blaze was really good as it gave me an insight into using footwork in interesting ways.

Ballroom is good for learning posture and frame, and hopefully is doing me good, but it's a bit of a struggle at the moment. My hope is that dabbling in these other dances my mj will be improved rather than the other way round, as mj is definately my dance of choice...

Miss Flicts
6th-December-2007, 03:02 PM
I might have a problem the other way round - I recently started learning WCS and it seems to be affecting my MJ style. I keep doing little triplesteps without meaning to and I catch myself doing that skating/gliding/slidey footwork thing as well.

I'm generally happy with my MJ style so I don't want it to be too WCSish - I don't want to end up with one homogenous style for all dances. :sad:

Has anyone else encountered this?

straycat
6th-December-2007, 03:48 PM
Has anyone else encountered this?

Mmm. Yes. As a result of all the Lindy I've been doing, I'll often find myself putting quite a few very subtle triples into my footwork (especially if the music asks for it)... and my leading has changed beyond all recognition!

I often find as well, that if I learn some nifty new little move, or piece of styling that really grabs my imagination, I'll find myself putting it in everywhere for a while, until I calm down and start restricting it to appropriate moments - all part of the learning process, I feel.

So I wouldn't sweat it. The gliding slidey thing really suits MJ a lot of the time (IMHO) - and I'm a great believer in letting the music dictate the dance** - so if it feels musically apt to do a certain piece of styling, why not go for it?


**even if West Coast is (musically) no longer Swing :devil:

David Bailey
6th-December-2007, 04:02 PM
I might have a problem the other way round ...
Has anyone else encountered this?
Most people do, I reckon - but there are oodles of threads on how different dance styles impact your MJ, this thread is about doing it the other way round.

Miss Flicts
6th-December-2007, 06:15 PM
Most people do, I reckon - but there are oodles of threads on how different dance styles impact your MJ, this thread is about doing it the other way round.

Oops, sorry. :blush: I didn't realise the parameters of the discussion were quite so strict.

straycat
6th-December-2007, 06:21 PM
Oops, sorry. :blush: I didn't realise the parameters of the discussion were quite so strict.

Generally, they're not - but I think DJ has his Mr Grumpy hat on today (but he does look so sweet in it, you must admit.) :devil:

I wouldn't worry - he'll have forgotten all about it tomorrow (age does that to you :whistle:)

My goodness. Is that the time? I'd best be off then...

David Bailey
6th-December-2007, 06:50 PM
Oops, sorry. :blush: I didn't realise the parameters of the discussion were quite so strict.
Actually, that was me speaking as "Thread-creator" rather than with my moderator hat.

In the dance-discussion area, we try to make an effort to keep things a bit more on-track that elsewhere, in the probably-vain hope that this will look like a dance forum...