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Terpsichorea
12th-November-2007, 12:35 PM
Bit of a niggly one this, but hey-ho. It's about a drop shown here - YouTube - Alex & Lisa Dips & Drops (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=HyEK6bs8wBM) - at 40 secs. I've seen it described as 'Donna' or 'Elbow Drop', but I was wondering what the correct position is for the leader's right hand to hold the lady on the way down? I was taught to do it with right hand reaching over her arm to her shoulder, but after experimenting with various followers, all told me they preferred the right hand to follow around their back, so that it ends up under their left arm (if this makes sense) on the way down.

So...is this way an acceptable and safe variation?

robd
12th-November-2007, 12:38 PM
LOL

Check out the footwork from the forum's big boss man in the background of that clip :respect:

David Franklin
12th-November-2007, 12:56 PM
I was taught to do it with right hand reaching over her arm to her shoulder, but after experimenting with various followers, all told me they preferred the right hand to follow around their back, so that it ends up under their left arm (if this makes sense) on the way down.

So...is this way an acceptable and safe variation?If it feels comfortable to you and your partners, I think that's fine. My personal feeling would be your variation is slightly safer in general dancing - 'over the shoulder' grips tend to be more dependent on the follower getting her side of the move right than ones going under the shoulder.

Gadget
12th-November-2007, 02:00 PM
So...is this way an acceptable and safe variation?
Depends on the support being given: in this clip, I would say that both hands are giving equal support to opposite sides of the follower's shoulders; this allows the dip to be deeper while the follower feels safe and the lead is still controlled.

If the lead's outside hand was further round, then less support would probably be given on the inside hand; it would be used mainly to maintain balance rather than support.

Terpsichorea
12th-November-2007, 02:23 PM
If it feels comfortable to you and your partners, I think that's fine. My personal feeling would be your variation is slightly safer in general dancing - 'over the shoulder' grips tend to be more dependent on the follower getting her side of the move right than ones going under the shoulder.

I think that's the crux of it - if she knows the drop (I found in freestyle) she moves her hand around your own elbow, if she doesn't it has a tendency to just hang there.

Martin
12th-November-2007, 09:12 PM
Bit of a niggly one this,

being niggly, is it common to bend the outside leg, and extend the inside leg, for the girl in a dip? :blush:

Hey maybe it is....

I have always seen this as "distroying the dance line".

David Franklin
12th-November-2007, 09:25 PM
being niggly, is it common to bend the outside leg, and extend the inside leg, for the girl in a dip? :blush:Have to admit, I was only looking at the handhold. I agree that video clip doesn't show best practice. In my experience the teachers do usually say that the follow should be bending the inside leg, so most people are taught to "do it right".


I have always seen this as "distroying the dance line".On the other hand, I think this overstates things a bit. It's very rare that the "hidden" leg is so hidden you don't see it, so the line isn't perfect either way, although it's undeniably a bit cleaner if you bend the inner leg.

Caro
12th-November-2007, 10:46 PM
LOL

Check out the footwork from the forum's big boss man in the background of that clip :respect:

:rofl: is he learning Balboa :confused:

Yliander
13th-November-2007, 08:49 AM
being niggly, is it common to bend the outside leg, and extend the inside leg, for the girl in a dip? :blush:

Hey maybe it is....

I have always seen this as "distroying the dance line".

the other reason for generally bending the inside leg in a dip is this keeps the follows center of balance/weight closer to the guy which makes the dip more stable

Martin
13th-November-2007, 09:37 AM
the other reason for generally bending the inside leg in a dip is this keeps the follows center of balance/weight closer to the guy which makes the dip more stable

:yeah:

One other obsevation... Is it common to step back with fully extended arms at shoulder height now in the UK?


Genuine question, as my assumption is that they were preparing to teach. Is that common style in the UK now?

David Franklin
13th-November-2007, 10:20 AM
One other obsevation... Is it common to step back with fully extended arms at shoulder height now in the UK?To be fair, I don't think the arms were quite fully extended. In normal social dancing I'd expect less extension, but I often see people extend more (a) when performing (or being filmed as here), and (b) in the prelude to a drop (or aerial).

Martin
13th-November-2007, 10:46 AM
To be fair, I don't think the arms were quite fully extended. In normal social dancing I'd expect less extension, but I often see people extend more (a) when performing (or being filmed as here), and (b) in the prelude to a drop (or aerial).

So why were they at shoulder height, if they had lost connection would one of them stumbled..... Were they relying on the other person's balance?

Shoulder height normally indicates too big a step back and a lack of holding your own body weight, coz the arm gets pulled up , shoulders come forward, to cope with the lack of holding body weight. :whistle:

David Franklin
13th-November-2007, 11:16 AM
So why were they at shoulder height, if they had lost connection would one of them stumbled..... Were they relying on the other person's balance?I don't think so; my feeling is the last bit of extension is coming from 'settling' the weight towards the back foot, in which case there's no problem with letting go at that point. I'm not seeing the characteristic 'jerk' when one or both parties is relying on the other person to control their weight.

But hey, if you really want to know, ask the people in the video clip.

mabraham
13th-November-2007, 01:05 PM
the other reason for generally bending the inside leg in a dip is this keeps the follows center of balance/weight closer to the guy which makes the dip more stable

Physical stability depends on the combined centre of mass of the couple staying somewhere over the area marked out by the points of support - here, the lead's two legs and the follow's bent leg. If the centre of mass moves away from being above that area, then a fall occurs, just like it does if you tip a 3-legged stool too far. Thus you maximise the "stability" (from the point of view of staying off the floor) by increasing the area inscribed by the points of support, which actually argues for the follow to bend the outside leg to increase stability.

The general advice about wanting the follow's center of mass to be close to the guy in dips/drops/aerials follows from the above... the closer you are to him, the more likely your combined centre is above and between his feet. (It's also much easier to move the follow if her centre is near yours, because your core muscles are used to moving weight near your own centre, and your combined moment of inertia is smaller - if there's any rotational movement going on.)

The effect changing legs in a dip has on the follow's centre of mass can be readily seen by standing upright and adjusting your "bent" leg to bend ninety degrees at the knee. That's a crude approximation of a dip, but it's not bad. The motion you need to do to achieve this moves a foot only in the vertical and back-and-forward direction, not the left-and-right direction. Thus swapping from foot to foot can only be moving the follow's centre of mass in those directions, not left-to-right. But to get the follow's centre of mass closer to the lead in a dip, that centre needs to move in her left-to-right direction. This isn't happening if she merely changes the bent leg.

So I don't think Yli's "other reason" is sound, because I don't see how the choice of leg is moving the follow's centre closer to the lead. The choice of leg certainly affects the area of support, but the normal choice of leg to maximise the look affects stability adversely. Thoughts, anyone?

David Franklin
13th-November-2007, 01:22 PM
Physical stability depends on the combined centre of mass of the couple staying somewhere over the area marked out by the points of support - here, the lead's two legs and the follow's bent leg. If the centre of mass moves away from being above that area, then a fall occurs, just like it does if you tip a 3-legged stool too far. Thus you maximise the "stability" (from the point of view of staying off the floor) by increasing the area inscribed by the points of support, which actually argues for the follow to bend the outside leg to increase stability.There's more to a drop's stability than whether the entire system is stable, however - you need to keep the follow stable as well.

So consider the forces on the follow. For a lot of drops (by no means all), the support is coming largely from the lead's right arm (connecting to the follow's 'outside' side - her left). So you end up with a more stable scenario if the follow supports using her right leg (because between you you can now apply torque in both directions).

With the (rarer) drops where the man is supporting on the follow's inside side, it's often noticably true that bending the outside leg improves stabilitiy as you suggest.

On the gripping hand, too much support towards the inside causes the follower to end up facing outwards, which is aesthetically a lot nicer than having too much support towards the outside and having the follower ending up facing in.


So I don't think Yli's "other reason" is sound, because I don't see how the choice of leg is moving the follow's centre closer to the lead. The choice of leg certainly affects the area of support, but the normal choice of leg to maximise the look affects stability adversely. Thoughts, anyone?One concrete difference is that the support leg doesn't move (usually!). If the inside leg is moving during the drop, it will often be more difficult (and dangerous) to really get in close to the follower.

Personally, I'm not hugely wedded to any particular technique, foot, etc. for drops - there are an awful lot of ways of doing a drop; some work better for some people than others.

DD+
13th-November-2007, 01:45 PM
being niggly, is it common to bend the outside leg, and extend the inside leg, for the girl in a dip? :blush:

Hey maybe it is....

I have always seen this as "distroying the dance line".


very true.....the only reson that Lisa is bending the "wrong" leg is as she has a cartlidge problem on her knee so all the drops filmed are on the "wrong leg". Hope she gets better soon tho:flower:

mabraham
13th-November-2007, 01:55 PM
There's more to a drop's stability than whether the entire system is stable, however - you need to keep the follow stable as well.

So consider the forces on the follow. For a lot of drops (by no means all), the support is coming largely from the lead's right arm (connecting to the follow's 'outside' side - her left). So you end up with a more stable scenario if the follow supports using her right leg (because between you you can now apply torque in both directions).

With the (rarer) drops where the man is supporting on the follow's inside side, it's often noticably true that bending the outside leg improves stabilitiy as you suggest.

Aha... that makes excellent sense. The lead gets better control of the follow when the primary point of his support is on the other side of her body from her point of support from the floor, because less force is needed to produce the same torque. Gotcha.


One concrete difference is that the support leg doesn't move (usually!). If the inside leg is moving during the drop, it will often be more difficult (and dangerous) to really get in close to the follower.

Yeah, for sure... I didn't want to distract discussion with that point :nice:

Martin
13th-November-2007, 10:46 PM
very true.....the only reson that Lisa is bending the "wrong" leg is as she has a cartlidge problem on her knee so all the drops filmed are on the "wrong leg". Hope she gets better soon tho:flower:

Fair point :flower: Respect to her for doing the demo while injured.

Thanks DD+ :love:

CentrAlex
26th-November-2007, 12:29 PM
being niggly, is it common to bend the outside leg, and extend the inside leg, for the girl in a dip? :blush:

Hey maybe it is....

I have always seen this as "distroying the dance line".

HI all! Only just been able to log on since Blackpool but with bending the inside leg this is right for the "line of dance" however, Lisa has injured her right knee so was using her left leg as her supporting leg throughout all of the drops on this one...just to let you know...but you are right, generally to keep it looking neat the lady should use the leg closer to her partner as her supporting leg! :D