The audience as judges

[stewart38]

Nice idea that 'the people' are being allowed to judge the dancers

What do people think ?

Thought there was some dodgy decisions at Ceroc championships

[Gus]

Like the idea to an extent but having heard comments of some dancers about the 'performance' of other dancers I'm not sure. I know a few dancers in the North West who are known for either really sleazy moves or multiple drops ... with a total disregard for the best or feel of the music that is playing ... however, I know that a fair portion of dancers regards these dancing disasters as impressive dancers.

I don't know for fact but I would say that if a fair proportion of dancers aren't that good at musical interpretation, would they be good at appreciating someone who is. My personal view is, based on no factual evidence whatsoever :grin:, is that the dancers who would benefit most would be those with the flashy moves, rather than subtle dancers.

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Gus
Like the idea to an extent but having heard comments of some dancers about the 'performance' of other dancers I'm not sure. I know a few dancers in the North West who are known for either really sleazy moves or multiple drops ... with a total disregard for the best or feel of the music that is playing ... however, I know that a fair portion of dancers regards these dancing disasters as impressive dancers.

I don't know for fact but I would say that if a fair proportion of dancers aren't that good at musical interpretation, would they be good at appreciating someone who is. My personal view is, based on no factual evidence whatsoever :grin:, is that the dancers who would benefit most would be those with the flashy moves, rather than subtle dancers.

From my own point of view I agree with Gus. I think we should be judged by experts when we compete. However, Jive Masters is something different. To state the obvious, it is what it is and doesn't pretend to be anything else. The winners will be the ones that average dancers think are the best.

Now we need a debate on what an average dancer is looking for. IMHO they are not looking for musicality or musical interpretation as most dancers seem see this as some mystic art. I now see musicality as the most important aspect of modern jive. But, I know that for the first few years I was dancing I never even thought about musicality. If I judged a competition at that time I would have based my judgement on flashy/complicated moves done well, costumes and smiley faces. I don't even think I could tell when a couple were on the beat all of the time.

But the result at the Jive Masters will be the right one. It will be what the people voted for. It will probably not be the experts choice but it will be democratic. It's a bit like politics, if we only allowed people to vote in elections if they passed an exam that shows they really understood the issues and promises we would probably get a different result, especially if they were mostly journalists - quite often when I'm canvassing I'm told 'I'm giving my vote to xxxxx because they look honest/have a nice friendly smile!'. I'm sure that some people judging at the Jive Masters will be applying the same unimpeachable logic!

I'm going to try to get there before the cut-off so I can be a judge. I'll see if my choices agree with the result. I know in the Open at the Ceroc Champs this year I didn't see the Australians who won as the best dancers. But they were the best at flashy moves, lifts and air-steps. And, before someone says it's sour grapes because Nina and I didn't win I would just like to say that I was delighted to be there with Nina and make it to the semi-finals. I wasn't expecting to get even that far with just the one lift, and I learnt that from a fireman:wink:

Well, actually, it was Nigel's idea but that didn't fit the story:innocent:

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Gus
I don't know for fact but I would say that if a fair proportion of dancers aren't that good at musical interpretation, would they be good at appreciating someone who is. My personal view is, based on no factual evidence whatsoever :grin:, is that the dancers who would benefit most would be those with the flashy moves, rather than subtle dancers.
Don't think I agree with either you or Andy on this point: While I admit that the "average" dancer would not know what musicality was, or what to watch out for, I think that a flashey move that matches the music would definetly get more of a "ooooh" than one that does not.
I think that a 'classic' move, with style, grace and musicality would get more "ooooh" than a flashey one done out of time.

The individual subtalties involved in a couple's dance may be lost, but it is the subtalties that put the gloss and polish onto/into the over all performance and {IMHO} would be reflected in the audience's scoring.
Of course it's the dancers with both the flashey moves and the polish you need to look out for :D :wink:.

As to not dancing to the general "feel" of the music - I think that this is down to individuality and the dancers can change your perception of a track by the way they move to it.

[Graham]

Originally posted by Gus
My personal view is, based on no factual evidence whatsoever :grin:, is that the dancers who would benefit most would be those with the flashy moves, rather than subtle dancers. I understand your point, and there's probably a lot of truth in what you're saying, but I'd just like to point out that in the Scottish heat the couple who won did not do so by virtue of flashy moves (unless you count combs/shimmies as flashy moves :wink: )

[Andy McGregor]

I agree with Gadget about the flashy moves. Even if jusdges have no idea about musicality they will pick up a flashy move done at a dramatic point in the music. This means that they'll mark such dancers higher than ones that do flashy moves in the wrong place.

However, there are also places in the music that aren't dramatic. And there's the start of bars and phrases in the music that look good to me when the dancers use them. I think this aspect of the dance will be lost on many of the judges. I think that dancers who do flashy moves in the wrong place will be given more marks than those dancers that use all of the music, not just the dramatic bits. And the flashy dancers will get even more marks if they're pretty/hunky and show some flesh:wink: It's got nothing to do with dancing but our eye is drawn to attractive people so we probably watch them more. So if you're reading this and expect to be judging please watch everyone - even The Tramp has an attractive partner - and he can dance brilliantly:devil:

I know it's the way of the world and I'm mostly complaining because I'll never be pretty no matter what colour wig I wear or how much flesh I show. Comedy is my only option:tears:

[TheTramp]

You wanna be more careful Andy. That almost sounded like a compliment in there!! :what:

Steve

[TheTramp]

Incidentally, a good comparison point for flashy moves v more musicality would have been in the 2nd round of the Jive Masters.

The competitors were Simon Selman & Taina, Nicky Haslam & Robert, and Graham LeClerc and Sarah Johnson.

Nicky and Robert as usual had all the flashy moves that are the usual with Antipodean dancing.

Graham and Sarah are (I think) one of the best technical couples in the country.

But Simon got up, messed around, played to the audience, used his VERY high degree of musical interpretation, did very few flashy moves. And won.

So, mayhap we should all be giving the audience more credit than we have. And, in my case, lots more money! :D

Steve

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by TheTramp
You wanna be more careful Andy. That almost sounded like a compliment in there!! :what:

Steve

It was - almost. I was trying to say you weren't pretty and that I'd seen enough of your flesh to last me, and everyone else in Ceroc, a lifetime:devil:

[Gus]

Originally posted by TheTramp

Graham and Sarah are (I think) one of the best technical couples in the country.

Steve

Urr .. didn't they go out of the competition? I must admit I'm slightly confused that there appears to be a few couples in the Final who didn't get through their heat. Is there a 'best loser' repercharge type thingy going on:confused:

Re the 'best technical' dancers ... would have to disagree. If its Graham LeClerc you're referring to, although I didn't see them dance at Jivemasters, I would have considered their style to be more antipodean. A few very complex moves but not so much musical interpretation. Interesting how people can watch the same couple and come to very different opinions. Viva la difference etc.:wink:

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Gus
Urr .. didn't they go out of the competition? I must admit I'm slightly confused that there appears to be a few couples in the Final who didn't get through their heat. Is there a 'best loser' repercharge type thingy going on:confused:

Re the 'best technical' dancers ... would have to disagree. If its Graham LeClerc you're referring to, although I didn't see them dance at Jivemasters, I would have considered their style to be more antipodean. A few very complex moves but not so much musical interpretation. Interesting how people can watch the same couple and come to very different opinions. Viva la difference etc.:wink: Ummm. That's exactly what I mean by 'technical'. Lots of very flashy and complex moves done well. But not as much style or interpretation. What else would you consider technical meant?? Although, I do agree that their style is more Antipodean than British.

There are a few couples who didn't come in the top 2 in their heat in the final (Graham LeClerc & Sarah Johnson, Alan Pratt and Sarah Bryen, Howard Temple and Nicola Chappell). There was always going to be one 3rd place in the final, but a couple of the people who got 1st or 2nd (Clayton & Janine (in Australia), and James & Kate (Kate has a bad wrist)) can't make it this weekend, so 2 couple more of the 3rd places (I believe the ones with the highest scores) have made it through as well.

Steve

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Gus
Urr .. didn't they go out of the competition? I must admit I'm slightly confused that there appears to be a few couples in the Final who didn't get through their heat. Is there a 'best loser' repercharge type thingy going on:confused:


I bumped into Graham yesterday. He told me that he wasn't expecting to be in the final but got in as one of the highest scoring losers from the heats.


Originally posted by Gus
Re the 'best technical' dancers ... would have to disagree. If its Graham LeClerc you're referring to, although I didn't see them dance at Jivemasters, I would have considered their style to be more antipodean. A few very complex moves but not so much musical interpretation. Interesting how people can watch the same couple and come to very different opinions. Viva la difference etc.:wink:

I've seen Graham and Sarah dance a lot. I think their style is very technical, they execute complicated moves like well oiled machines. They practice and practice and practice to get those moves spot on. But I agree with Gus about the antipodean style with less room for musical interpretation. Maybe that's what the Tramp means by referring to them as technical dancers.

Also, they don't smile/laugh much do they:devil: :D

[Jon]

Ok so in the ceroc champs alot of people disagreed with the 'expert' judges for whatever reason. So how can it be made fairer. How about keeping the experts and allowing the audience to vote as well. Not sure how you'd do this, maybe judeges = 50% of the votes and audience 50%. At least then an audience favourite might just over rule the judges decision.

[Chris]

You can view Jivemasters as a 'People's Favourite' or 'Audience Favourite' which is different to professional judging. One day perhaps the two can go side by side - by that time professional judging may have gained a higher reputation within modern jive but there's still always a place for who the crowds go for.
:cheers: