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Ghost
27th-October-2007, 02:47 PM
Several aspects of the same question…

1.
If I lead a move that the follow knows then she can do it in her style. If I lead a move she doesn’t know then she probably can’t / it’s harder too.

Therefore it’s less disruptive to mainly lead moves the follow knows, with a few she doesn’t to add light / shade as opposed to leading lots of moves she can follow, but doesn't know.

Yes / No / Maybe?

2.
Roughly how many lessons did you do until you could recognize the following

The Beginner’s Moves
Pretzel
Logging steps / Ceroc ochos
Barrier
Freeze
Pause
Invite to play
Columbian
West manhatten (and did you learn it in a Ceroc class?)

(Any other moves you think are significant in becoming a better follow)

Thanks
:flower:

Lynn
27th-October-2007, 03:16 PM
Several aspects of the same question…

1.
If I lead a move that the follow knows then she can do it in her style. If I lead a move she doesn’t know then she probably can’t / it’s harder too.

Therefore it’s less disruptive to mainly lead moves the follow knows, with a few she doesn’t to add light / shade as opposed to leading lots of moves she can follow, but doesn't know.

Yes / No / Maybe? No. As a follow I don't think in terms of 'moves' a lot of the time, but movement. If a leader is leading twisty-spinny move after move I won't even bother trying to add my own style or do much with the music, but generally what style I add depends on how I'm responding to the leader first and the music secondly. Eg I'd add in a lot more style with an experienced lead I knew well and to interesting music, than with a newbie on our first dance to a 'thump thump' track.

So the moves are probably the third thing that affects how much style. I don't tend to recognise moves that much anyway.


2.
Roughly how many lessons did you do until you could recognize the following
I often don't 'recognise' them!

This could be because I spent several years mostly dancing at weekenders but not doing many actual classes (because there were none to go to) - so when I do recognise moves its more been a case of being taught a move in class and recognising it from having followed it, than the other way round! Its been 'ah, I always wondered what that was'. I'd done beginner moves in class but not many intermediate.

I think the only ones in your list I learnt in a lesson before following them in freestyle were the beginners moves, pretzel and ochos - though AT ones. I admit the first time I got an invitation to play I wasn't quite sure what I was supposed to do!

Do you think followers need to have lessons to recognise these moves?

Ghost
27th-October-2007, 03:48 PM
No. As a follow I don't think in terms of 'moves' a lot of the time, but movement. If a leader is leading twisty-spinny move after move I won't even bother trying to add my own style or do much with the music
I'm giving thought to creating a situation where the follow has the choice to express / style as much (or as little) as they want. So why specifically would the twisty-spinny moves stop you from wanting to add style?


, but generally what style I add depends on how I'm responding to the leader first and the music secondly. Eg I'd add in a lot more style with an experienced lead I knew well and to interesting music, than with a newbie on our first dance to a 'thump thump' track.
Makes sense.

So the moves are probably the third thing that affects how much style.
There's not much I can do about the music (or in this case the skill of the leader), so I'm focussing on the third aspect ;)


I don't tend to recognise moves that much anyway.
There seems to be two camps - people who feel movements and the music and people who recognise moves. "Recognise" isn't the best word as it seems to imply anticipate / backleading. There's still going to be movements that you're comfortbale with and can more easily add style too though, right?


This could be because I spent several years mostly dancing at weekenders but not doing many actual classes (because there were none to go to) - so when I do recognise moves its more been a case of being taught a move in class and recognising it from having followed it, than the other way round! Its been 'ah, I always wondered what that was'. I'd done beginner moves in class but not many intermediate.
Again there does seem to be a group of follows who go this way :)


Do you think followers need to have lessons to recognise these moves?
Good question - I was talking it through with an intermediate last week, saying that basically she didn't need to learn 100s of moves and indeed her following would probably suffer if she did, but that there were concepts within the moves that were useful to be able to recognise / follow.

I can lead moves that a follow doesn't know, but I can't lead them in her particular style.

So I'm thinking if I want to have a dance with her dancing in her style, I'm better off avoiding them. As an example, lots of intermediate go through a phase of styling out the beginners moves (possibly to keep them interested inthe beginners class :whistle: ). I've found that I can have a very stylised dance with by just sticking with the beginners moves and invites to play. But if I moved into intermediate moves, the styling dropped off except for a few moves they'd figured out the styling for. More experienced dancers appear to build up a greater range of moves / movements they can style.

I suppose the other obvious questoin is "How important is it to you to be able to express yourself in your style and for how much of the dance would you like to be able to do it?"

Lynn
27th-October-2007, 05:05 PM
I'm giving thought to creating a situation where the follow has the choice to express / style as much (or as little) as they want. So why specifically would the twisty-spinny moves stop you from wanting to add style? Because they take up a lot of my attention in actually working out what I'm being led, because they move me quickly and often because I'm having to use some of my attention ensuring I keep my balance - often leads who do lots of 'complicated' moves aren't the most experienced dancers and can pull you off balance, and because of the speed on a crowded floor I'm having to pay more attention to dancers around me.

Basically they don't leave me much time, space or opportunity to add much myself.


There seems to be two camps - people who feel movements and the music and people who recognise moves. "Recognise" isn't the best word as it seems to imply anticipate / backleading. There's still going to be movements that you're comfortbale with and can more easily add style too though, right? It could be how I did my MJ learning for a good while, by following in freestyle rather than classes. I don't think 'ah this is a X' move most of the time - I think 'I'm being led in this direction, now I'm invited to turn' etc.

But of course there are moves and 'phrases' I recognise - probably as in -
that there were concepts within the moves that were useful to be able to recognise / follow.


I've found that I can have a very stylised dance with by just sticking with the beginners moves and invites to play. But if I moved into intermediate moves, the styling dropped off except for a few moves they'd figured out the styling for. More experienced dancers appear to build up a greater range of moves / movements they can style.I think that's just a natural progression and so with each follower it depends what stage of that they are at.


I suppose the other obvious questoin is "How important is it to you to be able to express yourself in your style and for how much of the dance would you like to be able to do it?" Depends very much on the music.

Ghost
27th-October-2007, 09:34 PM
Because they take up a lot of my attention in actually working out what I'm being led, because they move me quickly and often because I'm having to use some of my attention ensuring I keep my balance - often leads who do lots of 'complicated' moves aren't the most experienced dancers and can pull you off balance, and because of the speed on a crowded floor I'm having to pay more attention to dancers around me.

Basically they don't leave me much time, space or opportunity to add much myself.
Thanks - that what I thought, but wanted to check :flower: Pretty much I'm trying to avoid doing all of that for the reasons you gave and instead focussing on leading the movements / phrases that the follow knows / can style.


I think that's just a natural progression and so with each follower it depends what stage of that they are at.
I don't know if I can, but I'm trying to get a feel for roughly when people pick up the various concepts. Open to better suggestions than "how long", "how many lessons" :flower:

Feelingpink
27th-October-2007, 09:41 PM
Thanks - that what I thought, but wanted to check :flower: Pretty much I'm trying to avoid doing all of that for the reasons you gave and instead focussing on leading the movements / phrases that the follow knows.


I don't know if I can, but I'm trying to get a feel for roughly when people pick up the various concepts. Open to better suggestions than "how long", "how many lessons" :flower:It might depend on how long/how many lessons ... but wonder if a more important factor might be where you dance/learn. Some women also don't like playtime and won't play no matter how long they've been dancing ... whereas others ... :drool::awe::clap:

Ghost
27th-October-2007, 11:58 PM
but wonder if a more important factor might be where you dance/learn.
Yeah, I was pondering this. If say teacher A likes pretzels and teaches them a lot, then follows at that venue will probably know them, whereas Follows at Venue B might all know the Barrier instead - which would partly explain why it can be much harder to lead some moves in a different venue


Some women also don't like playtime and won't play no matter how long they've been dancing ...
:yeah: I've adopted the "there's space there if you want it, but it's fine if you don't" approach rather than the "I will stand here and stare at you until you do something cool and inspired (or the track ends)" way


whereas others ... :drool::awe::clap:
:clap::clap::clap::clap:

Astro
28th-October-2007, 03:07 PM
I often don't 'recognise' them!

This could be because I spent several years mostly dancing at weekenders but not doing many actual classes (because there were none to go to) - so when I do recognise moves its more been a case of being taught a move in class and recognising it from having followed it, than the other way round! Its been 'ah, I always wondered what that was'. I'd done beginner moves in class but not many intermediate.


I can identify with that. In my case though, I used to do the classes and freestyles. (not weekenders).

When a new intermediate move was being taught it seemed really alien.

It was only if I stopped in the line at a lead who knew the move that the penny would drop, otherwise it would be towards the end of the class before I realised I knew it and could follow it easily in freestyle where I had "picked it up".


[quote=Lynn;423045]Because they take up a lot of my attention in actually working out what I'm being led, because they move me quickly and often because I'm having to use some of my attention ensuring I keep my balance - often leads who do lots of 'complicated' moves aren't the most experienced dancers and can pull you off balance, and because of the speed on a crowded floor I'm having to pay more attention to dancers around me.


It's the same for me. :yeah:

[But they are so pleased with themselves and only learning].

timbp
30th-October-2007, 08:33 AM
Basically they don't leave me much time, space or opportunity to add much myself.

Makes sense to me. With girls I know have the most style, I am most likely to lead the most basic moves, just to give them room to show off. And I'm now starting to try to follow them if I don't feel too stupid.

I've done 2 reverse roles classes. The big problem with reverse roles classes is all the leaders are beginner leaders and all the followers are beginner followers, whereas normal classes have a mix of skills in both roles. As it happens, at the second class there was a woman who is a great lead, and I ended up with her as we went into freestyle. I quickly found that I could not notice anything other than her lead. I was just concentrating on the connection and stepping where I thought I should. ONly afterwards was I able to think about how I had stepped and reconstruct the move (and I was amazed to find I had been doing moves I lead all the time).

I can easily imagine that with some practice I could follow without losing all sense of the space around me. But there was a time when I could not lead without losing all sense of the space around me -- and it is impossible to lead well without knowledge of the space around one.

I can easily see that one may be a great follower, but still be able to concentrate only on following if a move is complex enough.

Important question: when a man leads you into a move too complex for you to easily add style, is he watching you, or is he too busy trying to lead the move to notice how you actually do it?
(If he's not watching, why do you care? OK, so I'm a social dancer, not trying to impress the judges.)

Twirly
30th-October-2007, 12:14 PM
No. As a follow I don't think in terms of 'moves' a lot of the time,

I don't tend to recognise moves that much anyway.

:yeah:

With a couple of exceptions (e.g neck break and manspin, because they are often started with a "signal"), I generally won't recognise a "move" until it's been completed, because I'm following rather than trying to second-guess what is about to be led. You can't possibly recognise it before it's led - as you don't know where the move is going to go. You might start off in a yoyo type position, but maybe the lead will pass your hand over his head instead and bring you out of it that way.

To some degree this does leave me at a disadvantage at the moment with things like Manahttans and certain other similar moves which I'm not very good at (though I have been lead perfectly in them by certain leads, so it ain't all my fault :na:). I have a bit of a blind spot here too - think I go into panic mode when I do realise what is being led.

I often won't recognise moves we've just learnt in intermediate class when done on me in freestyle either :blush: not until we're part way through the routine at least.

As for style - since I've started Ceroc, I've always had moves done on me that I don't recognise, sometimes with more success than others :what: :rofl: So, apart from fast tracks or very arm twisty moves, any style I have got (and it's not a huge amount compared to some people on here - am still developing) I'm used to deploying even in unfamiliar moves - though I still get a bit confused/embarrassed when I'm given room to play as I'm never quite sure what to do :blush:

Astro
30th-October-2007, 12:55 PM
I often won't recognise moves we've just learnt in intermediate class when done on me in freestyle either :blush: not until we're part way through the routine at least.
I think the reason why everyone's mind goes blank in freestyle and it's hard to remember moves just learnt, is that retaining the memory of the move just taught and executing the move without prompting, use 2 different sides of the brain.



though I still get a bit confused/embarrassed when I'm given room to play as I'm never quite sure what to do :blush:

That's because they only give you about 2 seconds to think of something.:confused:

You have to be quick.

MartinHarper
30th-October-2007, 03:19 PM
If I lead a move that the follow knows then she can do it in her style. If I lead a move she doesn’t know then she probably can’t / it’s harder too.

Therefore it’s less disruptive to mainly lead moves the follow knows, with a few she doesn’t to add light / shade as opposed to leading lots of moves she can follow, but doesn't know.

Yes / No / Maybe?

If you lead me an infinite variety of different moves, then I will enjoy the variety of your moves. I don't find this disruptive.
If you lead me only first moves, I will enjoy adding my own variety into those moves. I don't find this boring.
If you lead a mix, that's cool too.

Auntie Temptme
2nd-November-2007, 05:47 PM
I suppose the other obvious questoin is "How important is it to you to be able to express yourself in your style and for how much of the dance would you like to be able to do it?"


Um style!???

Never had a clue what that was meant to be - Until just now that is!

I've just remebered that during a rather nice dance last night with a very accomplished leader. :grin:

At one point he slowed it everything right down and I seemed to start doing something all by myself:really: Most odd!

Is that they styling bit? - If so I've now even less idea!:blush:

Ghost
4th-November-2007, 06:31 PM
Um style!???

Never had a clue what that was meant to be - Until just now that is!

I've just remebered that during a rather nice dance last night with a very accomplished leader. :grin:

At one point he slowed it everything right down and I seemed to start doing something all by myself:really: Most odd!

Is that they styling bit? - If so I've now even less idea!:blush:

Thoughts on style / styling.

There's "style elements" which are taught at workshops or you can get watching other dancers. An example is body rolls which you could add in during a slo comb :drool:

Then there's styling for specific move that you figure out, either just by spontanouesly doing them (as you described) and working out later what it was you did, or by working / playing with moves with a partner / mirror / video. eg I lead a half slingshot at the moment, and one lady I dance with has figured out a very simple, elegant arm styling (so much so that I've *cough* borrowed *cough* it :whistle:)

Then there's YONA styling which I live for :awe: (You Only Never Again). Those moments of beauty where the dancer is lost in the moment and is moved by inspiration to create something unique - that sadly you'll never see again.
"Wow that was beautiful :awe:"
"It was? What did I do?"
"Um, well...."
~ recent conversation

Then there's "the way you move" styling. Watch a taxi dancer (it's easier with taxi leads) with a beginner who's not quite getting it and you'll see them shift into "taxi style" - it's rather clincial and detached; gets the job done, but not much else. Then look at a beginer who's clicked with the person they're dancing with. Totally different energy. And the beginner's personality is more likley evident. Then go and find some "advanced dancers" who are parners at the end of an evening where they're doing simple moves but with incredible style even if you'd be hard pressed to say exactly why it was stylish. In all 3 cases the same moves are being danced, quite possibly in the same order with no style elements, but in 3 very different ways. It's like being able to recognise people from their voice, even if they all said the same thing. You reach a point where the dancers are expressing themselves rather than just doing moves or copying others' style ideas. At that point it should be easy to recognise dancers even if you have your eyes closed.

I like style :innocent: I think for me, it's the freedom of expression that comes with being able to move naturally, whatever "naturally" means for that person.
(I just need to remember to keep leading during / after YONA moments :blush: )

Miss Flicts
20th-November-2007, 04:47 PM
I suppose the other obvious questoin is "How important is it to you to be able to express yourself in your style and for how much of the dance would you like to be able to do it?"[/quote]

I love styling and playing - for me this is the most important and enjoyable aspect of dancing, because it's the creative part, where followers can use some initiative and take a break from following the lead's choice of moves.

It's great dancing with a lead who also likes to play around because you spark off and inspire each other. It's also lovely when someone offers an invitation, or when someone leads moves which are open to improvisation. It really adds some variety to the dance.

How much of the dance though? Hmm, that's really difficult to answer...I'm not sure I can really come up with a number.