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David Bailey
26th-October-2007, 02:14 PM
It's just occurred to me, I've never read anything from anyone describing how they learn WCS?

Why is that?

Caro
26th-October-2007, 02:28 PM
It's just occurred to me, I've never read anything from anyone describing how they learn WCS?

Why is that?

cause we'd much rather highjack MJ threads. You know, a 'learnign WCS' thread, not hotshotty enough. We're all natural fab westies anyway, you're talking like any of us ever struggled with it :rofl:
Nothing like those tango lots who spend 3 years and 1,271 posts moaning they can't walk. :devil:

David Bailey
26th-October-2007, 02:33 PM
cause we'd much rather highjack MJ threads. You know, a 'learnign WCS' thread, not hotshotty enough. We're all natural fab westies anyway, you're talking like any of us ever struggled with it :rofl:
Nothing like those tango lots who spend 3 years and 1,271 posts moaning they can't walk. :devil:
Well, yeah, fair enough. I mean, what do you expect from such a simple dance?

Seriously though, why is it so quiet on that side of things? :confused:

johnnyman
26th-October-2007, 02:57 PM
As a WCS dancer of about three years, it is probably more down to the fact that it takes a good deal longer to develop and learn WCS than MJ due to the five basics having a number of movements within them from a handhold, body, posture and footwork point of view, so I can understand why it is a little quiet.

Give it time and I think this will increase. I know Amir commented on this a short while ago in a thread about the way the dance is learned.

The only thing I felt benefitted my WCS was by not MJing for a while before continuing so that I could segregate the two disciplines and that has helped me. I can still do MJ now, but I can also be clearer with WCS.

best
johnnyman

Chef
26th-October-2007, 03:02 PM
Seriously though, why is it so quiet on that side of things? :confused:

I find it hard enough to put technical descriptions of MJ into words I would find it impossible to put WCS into words. I would leave that to more able people than myself. The last time I went to the Bisley worskshop Paul Warden spent one hour of the workshop showing us how not to allow our hips from moving too far forward or behind our centre and what effect it has on the dancing. I just don't think the level of detail could be put forward in words, at least by me.

Another thing is that the moment you try to discuss anything technical and in depth here you get a few people who are interested but loads of people who pop up and say "why so technical, it is supposed to be fun, chill out". OK so they have their own POV and are entitled to it but if they don't want to take part in a technical discussion why not look at one of the many other threads. It is just like trying to have a date with a new girlfriend at home while your younger brother bounces around the room wanting to play on the nintendo - it is an annoying distraction from the proceedings and adds nothing to the ambience. In general an MJ forum is a poor place to get in depth about WCS. Although an MJ forum is a good place to keep WCS interested MJers informed about what is going on in terms of classes and weekenders.

Lastly. There are always the westie forums to go and get some more specific discussion on (like wcsdance.co.uk).

straycat
26th-October-2007, 03:09 PM
It is just like trying to have a date with a new girlfriend at home while your younger brother bounces around the room wanting to play on the nintendo - it is an annoying distraction from the proceedings and adds nothing to the ambience.

I do feel for the brother in this circumstance. You could take your new girlie anywhere, but he needs the big TV and surround sound to experience Resident Evil 4 at its height - and you have no idea just how irritating it is trying to fight off those (frankly) terrifying regenerators when there's a hormonally-stimulated couple snogging away like there was no tomorrow on the sofa next to you..... :(

Caro
26th-October-2007, 03:20 PM
Another thing is that the moment you try to discuss anything technical and in depth here you get a few people who are interested but loads of people who pop up and say "why so technical, it is supposed to be fun, chill out". OK so they have their own POV and are entitled to it but if they don't want to take part in a technical discussion why not look at one of the many other threads.


Agree. Not to mention that you'll have those who, out of boredom I can only presume, will try to find something to disagree with, be it a grammar point :what:, just for the sake of argumenting, and not bringing anything valuable into the discussion.

I'm going to sound like my best hotshotty self here and also add that there are few people here both willing to discuss WCS technique and skilled enough at the dance to do so in an impactful manner. When we're all in the dark we need somebody to enlighten us and there just isn't anybody here to do that (i.e. AFAIC we're all beginners, some a bit less so than others but still early in their WCS journey).




Lastly. There are always the westie forums to go and get some more specific discussion on (like wcsdance.co.uk).

I don't post on that particular forum (don't think I ever received the confirmation email which would allow me to do so anyway), simply because I don't like the attitude that's on there, i.e people hiding their identity, constant ceroc slagging (I'm not linked to ceroc myself but don't see the need to slag them off all the time), and general 'I know best' kinda attitude.

When I want to discuss or read about WCS technique, I go on the (US) strictly westies forum.

David Bailey
26th-October-2007, 03:45 PM
I'm still confused.

None of the objections and reasons stated have stopped us beginner Tangueros talking about learning Tango - and getting a lot of support from people like JonD who know what they're talking about. "Learning Tango" is now weighing in at 1,274 posts, and it's coming up to its second birthday. It certainly hasn't been polluted, taken off-topic, or otherwise sabotaged.

And yes, there are tango forums - but this is the only forum where you're likely to find people sharing the experience of going to a dance form, starting from MJ. And yes, most of us are beginners - but that's a Good Thing, because we can share our learning experiences.

So, once again, why has no-one started a "learning WCS" thread?

This is not me having a go at Westies, BTW - I'm genuinely puzzled...

David Bailey
26th-October-2007, 03:48 PM
Oh, and to answer:

Another thing is that the moment you try to discuss anything technical and in depth here you get a few people who are interested but loads of people who pop up and say "why so technical, it is supposed to be fun, chill out".
I'd be happy to strictly-moderate any "learning WCS" threads so that didn't happen - if such intervention were needed, at least; it hasn't been in "Learning Tango".

Chef
26th-October-2007, 04:01 PM
I do feel for the brother in this circumstance. You could take your new girlie anywhere, but he needs the big TV and surround sound to experience Resident Evil 4 at its height - and you have no idea just how irritating it is trying to fight off those (frankly) terrifying regenerators when there's a hormonally-stimulated couple snogging away like there was no tomorrow on the sofa next to you..... :(

Absolutely. It must be just as irritating to the MJ crowd (after all it is their forum) to have westies getting all technical on their MJ forum. Just like the snogging couple on the sofa - there are more appropriate places to indulge yourself and get comfortable, as I pointed out in my last point about westie forums on the net.


I'm going to sound like my best hotshotty self here and also add that there are few people here both willing to discuss WCS technique and skilled enough at the dance to do so in an impactful manner. When we're all in the dark we need somebody to enlighten us and there just isn't anybody here to do that (i.e. AFAIC we're all beginners, some a bit less so than others but still early in their WCS journey). .

I am still very much in the dark on WCS but I go to lessons and workshops and absorb as much as I can, check out some great stuff on youtube, and lurk about on the US WCS forum. I am not in a position of being able to contribute though. You must choose your source of information to be appropriate for what you want. Just like with newspapers - if you want financial information get the financial times - if you want pictures of breasts but are shy about admitting it then buy The Star so you can pretent you are reading news items. If you want info on WCS then an MJ forum isn't the best place for it.


I don't post on that particular forum (don't think I ever received the confirmation email which would allow me to do so anyway), simply because I don't like the attitude that's on there, i.e people hiding their identity, constant ceroc slagging (I'm not linked to ceroc myself but don't see the need to slag them off all the time), and general 'I know best' kinda attitude.

When I want to discuss or read about WCS technique, I go on the (US) strictly westies forum.

Ceroc slagging on the wcsdance forum is entirely optional (just like it is here). It does seem to be along the lines of "Ceroc are trying to introduce WCS lite - all the slot, some of the styling, but don't mention the technique or it will frigthen the people away" in a shock horror way. If it gets more people into WCS (even if it is a "lite" version) then there will be a number of people who later on want to make the transition to the "full fat" version later on that wouldn't have gone for it in the first place. It is a great product line extension. Teach people the "lite version" and take the money and then get a whole lots more money out of the same people by doing the conversion course to the "full fat version" - the teachers don't lose, and many more people may end up doing some version of WCS that otherwise wouldn't have been.

People have thier concerns about Cerocs involvment in WCS and a possible dumbing down of the dance as a result but I don't feel that the sky will fall down as a result.

Miguel
26th-October-2007, 04:07 PM
Seriously though, why is it so quiet on that side of things? :confused:

Those who can, dance
Those who can't, post

straycat
26th-October-2007, 04:25 PM
Those who can, dance
Those who can't, post

You sure that isn't "Those that can't, generalise"? :whistle:

David Bailey
26th-October-2007, 04:33 PM
Those who can, dance
Those who can't, post
Errr.... is that some kind of Zen or something?

OK, my turn:
"Those who can't punctuate, can't expect to have their posts respected."

How's that? :grin:

Anyway, on topic, I'm still not convinced - this all sounds like the feeble embarassed-silence-type of excuses I heard when I repeatedly asked how that Jango thing actually worked in practice.

Based on that episode, I don't reckon any of you actually dance WCS, you're just pretending really aren't you? :devil:

Lynn
26th-October-2007, 05:01 PM
I did start a 'Learning WCS' thread suggesting it could be like the 'Learning Tango' thread but it got moderated and joined onto an existing WCS thread somewhere...

The Learning Tango thread has had great information on venues, teachers, technique tips, problem moves, but most of all, a shared joy and frustration with fellow learners at attempting to make sense of it all.

I would have loved the same 'space' on here to do that, but there doesn't seem to be the interest. Or, aside from a few individuals, the same enthusiasm for those a bit further along the path helping those trying to start out. I have no idea why this is.

MartinHarper
26th-October-2007, 05:13 PM
Why has no-one started a "learning WCS" thread?

Well, "learning Tango" is the only such thread we have. There's no "learning West Coast" thread, no "learning Lindy" thread, no "learning Polka" thread, and so forth. So the better question is, why is the learning Tango thread so popular?

Ghost
26th-October-2007, 05:14 PM
I would also find it interesting to lurk on such a thread. There's a gradually increasing number of Cerocers learning to WCS and it'd be interesting to see more about it in a friendly, supportive manner similar to the Learning Tango thread.

David Bailey
26th-October-2007, 06:16 PM
I did start a 'Learning WCS' thread suggesting it could be like the 'Learning Tango' thread but it got moderated and joined onto an existing WCS thread somewhere...
:eek: Hope that wasn't me... :blush:

David Bailey
26th-October-2007, 06:18 PM
So the better question is, why is the learning Tango thread so popular?
Because, obviously, we're all just superior beings? :na:

Let's hope the new one catches one, good luck with it.

Lynn
26th-October-2007, 06:48 PM
There's a gradually increasing number of Cerocers learning to WCS and it'd be interesting to see more about it in a friendly, supportive manner similar to the Learning Tango thread.:yeah:

While I have appreciated all the technical stuff on the Learning Tango thread, the main thing its given me is encouragement, motivation and inspiration.

MartinHarper
26th-October-2007, 06:56 PM
Because, obviously, we're all just superior beings? :na:

I think it's more about Tango angst.

TA Guy
26th-October-2007, 07:13 PM
I wonder if it's because no one really feels qualified to comment ?
Lots of here seem to have many years of MJ and are probably qualified to hand out at least some advice to beginners who want it. Are there really that many WCS'ers who feel in that boat? I certainly don't on most, virtually all, aspects of WCS.

And given the number of WCS beginners has to be significantly lower than the number of MJ beginners (I assume that's true, plenty of people 'dabble' at weekenders and the like, but how many are week in, week out WCS beginners, not many I would guess) which means far less chance of a beginner WCS thread on what is, after all, an MJ forum.

tiger
26th-October-2007, 07:42 PM
cause we'd much rather highjack MJ threads. You know, a 'learnign WCS' thread, not hotshotty enough. We're all natural fab westies anyway, you're talking like any of us ever struggled with it :rofl:
Nothing like those tango lots who spend 3 years and 1,271 posts moaning they can't walk. :devil:

:rofl::rofl:

tiger
26th-October-2007, 07:44 PM
Errr.... is that some kind of Zen or something?

OK, my turn:
"Those who can't punctuate, can't expect to have their posts respected."

How's that? :grin:

Anyway, on topic, I'm still not convinced - this all sounds like the feeble embarassed-silence-type of excuses I heard when I repeatedly asked how that Jango thing actually worked in practice.

Based on that episode, I don't reckon any of you actually dance WCS, you're just pretending really aren't you? :devil:



:rofl::rofl:

Lynn
26th-October-2007, 07:54 PM
I wonder if it's because no one really feels qualified to comment ?
Lots of here seem to have many years of MJ and are probably qualified to hand out at least some advice to beginners who want it. Are there really that many WCS'ers who feel in that boat? I certainly don't on most, virtually all, aspects of WCS. That's the whole point - its for people of different levels to share experiences. Read the Learning Tango thread to get an idea. Sometimes it felt like the blind leading the blind, but it was that shared feeling of not being the only one struggling with the basics that makes it work.

The point is, everyone is learning together, just some are further on the learning path than others. Its not about 'experts vs beginners'.

And as for it being an MJ forum, I think that's a key thing - its for people who are approaching these other dance styles from being an existing MJ dancer.

And given the popularity of WCS, it being promoted and encouraged at many MJ events, including Ceroc, I think this is a perfect place for MJers to want to talk about their experiences learning WCS.

Sugarfoot
26th-October-2007, 11:55 PM
It's just occurred to me, I've never read anything from anyone describing how they learn WCS?

Why is that?

Ok David

since no one is kicking it off...I will…:eek:

Please bare in mind all my comments are from a beginner’s point of view :innocent:


Although I have tried to muck about with a bit of WCS, I am now travelling up from Bournemouth to Cat's WCS on Wednesday nights to try and get to grips with this dance.

For me personally… I find it more difficult to learn than Tango or Salsa both of which I am still pursuing. :(


I put this down to the fact that there seems to be a lot more choreography in WCS. By that, I mean there are set pieces and responses and the follow must know there part in the dance. In both Tango and Salsa, I find I can lead ladies that have little or no experience. This was the case almost from the outset…not just because I am a better lead in those dances.

Due to these set pieces followers can take more ownership in WCS. My 1st impressions are that the ladies are picking it up quicker and expressing themselves far more than the men.

Many of the men are wearing Cuban heels. Are they really necessary? Do they really improve the dance? Mandy says she will disown me if I start wearing Cubans.:eek:

I must say that I have found the venue very friendly and sociable. Even though I am apprehensive about free styling with the ladies who obviously better than me, they don’t let me stand out for long and get me dancing (the only way to improve).

TA Guy
27th-October-2007, 01:10 PM
That's the whole point - its for people of different levels to share experiences. Read the Learning Tango thread to get an idea. Sometimes it felt like the blind leading the blind, but it was that shared feeling of not being the only one struggling with the basics that makes it work.

The point is, everyone is learning together, just some are further on the learning path than others. Its not about 'experts vs beginners'.

And as for it being an MJ forum, I think that's a key thing - its for people who are approaching these other dance styles from being an existing MJ dancer.

And given the popularity of WCS, it being promoted and encouraged at many MJ events, including Ceroc, I think this is a perfect place for MJers to want to talk about their experiences learning WCS.

Well, yes, no, maybe :)
Doesn't really answer why there are no beginner WCS threads.

Speaking for myself, if I told you the number of years I've 'been doing WCS' (in the loosest sense) you'd think it was a reasonable amount of time. Trouble is, down where I am, there is absolutely no regular WCS at all. I am limited to once in a blue moon workshops, weekender lessons etc. The result is that my biggest problem is simply a lack of opportunity to do the damm dance :) Even jammin' with like-minded friends at MJ freestyles is a no-no as locally we live on a steady diet of "Simply the worse music in the world! Ever!"
This is very frustrating :) The result is that while I still take every opportunity available locally to 'keep my hand in', I recently have decided not to sweat it, and 'give up' (in the loosest sense again :)) WCS until such time as it's available down here. Hence why I do not start WCS threads (unless there's some crossover with MJ).

I don't know how common this is, but that's my reason.

MartinHarper
27th-October-2007, 03:17 PM
Even jammin' with like-minded friends at MJ freestyles is a no-no as locally we live on a steady diet of "Simply the worse music in the world! Ever!"

I find I can dance West Coast to bad music.

Lynn
27th-October-2007, 03:37 PM
Trouble is, down where I am, there is absolutely no regular WCS at all. I am limited to once in a blue moon workshops, weekender lessons etc. The result is that my biggest problem is simply a lack of opportunity to do the damm dance :) Yep, in the same boat - I only get to do any WCS at weekenders. And the gaps in between are so big that I feel very discouraged and want to give up as I never feel I make any progress.

But I was in that situation with AT for a while as well. There were no classes, then classes for a while, but then nothing for months, and the learning AT thread did help me build some level of bonding with fellow AT learners which meant I felt I had some moral support. There were times when a comment on a thread or a PM from someone like JonD in relation to something I'd said stopped me from giving up on AT completely.

I've had some encouragement from WCS forumites - at every weekender I've had a few dances with leads who, despite my appalling lack of WCS knowledge, ability and experience have managed, for a dance or two, to make me feel like I'm actually dancing WCS. I remember those dances. And that is what has stopped me from giving up completely on it, even though I'm currently unable to progress.

I'll even name and praise - Dave Hancock, Paul F, Simon, Keith J, Chef and Mikeyr. :hug:

So I'd like a learning WCS thread as much for moral support in the WCS barren desert that is NI as much as anything else.

Sugarfoot
27th-October-2007, 07:26 PM
[quote]Trouble is, down where I am, there is absolutely no regular WCS at all. I am limited to once in a blue moon workshops, weekender lessons etc. The result is that my biggest problem is simply a lack of opportunity to do the damm dance :) Even jammin' with like-minded friends at MJ freestyles is a no-no as locally we live on a steady diet of "Simply the worse music in the world! Ever!" Hi TA Guy

I empathise with your problem.:sad:

We have been running freestyles and classes (Utopia style events long before they existed) in and near your area for the last 18 months. We have been teaching Tango 4 Jivers and Slotted Jive etc. Our freestyles ran till 1am and always included a good amount of WCS. On occasion we did get a few WCS dancers, but in general there has been little support or interest shown. In fact we been slated for playing WCS despite the fact that we advertised that we would. There are so many standard Jive events and organisers in the area that we thought it would be good to offer something different. Sadly there has not been the interest. We may revue the situation in the New Year. As you probably know…there is a hall war going on between the local organisers sometimes charging as little as £2 entry. We could not compete with that.:eek:

I think you have hit the nail on the head about the lack of thread though. Until recently WCS has been situated mainly in one area. It was and still is very small. Compare that to Tango which has enjoyed huge growth over the last few years and now popular all over the country.

David Bailey
27th-October-2007, 09:47 PM
I think you have hit the nail on the head about the lack of thread though. Until recently WCS has been situated mainly in one area. It was and still is very small. Compare that to Tango which has enjoyed huge growth over the last few years and now popular all over the country.
See, that's the weird thing - one could be forgiven, after talking to some MJers and seeing all the WCS advertising going on, for thinking that AT was a tiny minority sport, something like Polka (good comparison!) in terms of its popularity, whereas the WCS bandwagon is sweeping the nation like an unstoppable juggernaut of dancing or something... But if that's so, why are there so few people doing WCS or talking about doing it?

spindr
27th-October-2007, 10:41 PM
See, that's the weird thing - one could be forgiven, ..., for thinking that AT was a tiny minority sport, ..., whereas the WCS bandwagon is sweeping the nation like an unstoppable juggernaut...
Maybe there are more enthusiastic faux wanna-be pseudo-WCS dancers than enthusiastic faux wanna-be pseudo-tango dancers?
SpinDr

David Bailey
27th-October-2007, 10:47 PM
Maybe there are more enthusiastic faux wanna-be pseudo-WCS dancers than enthusiastic faux wanna-be pseudo-tango dancers?
SpinDr
I dunno, at the moment I'm a faux-don't-wanna-be pseudo tango dancer... :sad:

NZ Monkey
28th-October-2007, 12:07 AM
See, that's the weird thing - one could be forgiven, after talking to some MJers and seeing all the WCS advertising going on, for thinking that AT was a tiny minority sport, something like Polka (good comparison!) in terms of its popularity, whereas the WCS bandwagon is sweeping the nation like an unstoppable juggernaut of dancing or something... But if that's so, why are there so few people doing WCS or talking about doing it?This is entirely guesswork so if someone who know's the scene decides to tell me I'm wrong I'll bow to their wisdom.

Hasn't Tango been around in the UK for a very long time? Certainly I knew there was a dance called Tango and had a very vague notion of what it looked like when I was around 12 years old. I was in my mid-20's before I'd even heard of WCS, let alone seen it. Could it be that Tango just isn't novel anymore?

The other point I think is important is that you can dance WCS to quite a bit of music that regularly gets played in MJ circles. The punters are already familiar with some of the music, which makes it seem more relevant to what they like doing already. That's bound to evoke more discussion than something as obviously[I] unrelated to MJ like Tango*.

I think there are so few people actually [I]doing WCS at the moment because it isn't readily available in a weekly format many places yet. 6 months ago I think there was only a single weekly class in all of London! Much of the rest of the UK was even less fortunate than that. From what I gather on the forum, things have been picking a lot since I left. I try not to take that too personally :tears:

Monthly or weekender workshops are a great form of taster for people new to the dance, or for more experienced dancers to pick up or refine technique that may not be easy to cover in a weekly class, but it's a very difficult way to learn if it's your only avenue. Just ask Caro - the only person I know who's managed to persevere.

*OK, not everyone thinks like that but I'd guess a significant proportion of the MJ community does.

Sugarfoot
28th-October-2007, 08:33 AM
Could it be that Tango just isn't novel anymore?

:what: As someone who dances in the Jive, Salsa and Tango world, I can assure you that this is not the case. Argentine Tango has enjoyed huge growth over the last 5 years.

The perception of the Jive world is that ‘it’ is the biggest social dance form and that everything revolves around it. This simply is not true. It has a relative popularity in the UK, but that is it. I would say that Salsa has larger overall numbers in the UK. They don’t generally have such big venues but there are more of them. Although there are probably less numbers in Tango, once again it is available in most large towns and cities with some large hotspots. Compare that to WCS???

If you look at things on an international basis it gets worse for Jive and WCS. WCS isn’t even that big in the USA (the place of its birth). We have travelled quite a bit over the last 3 years. We have always found somewhere to Tango/Salsa. Could not find any Jive/WCS. :sad:


It is also interesting that with the huge growth in Jive weekenders you still see the same faces…especially true in Blues/Chill rooms. I think this highlights what a small world it really is.

Wes
28th-October-2007, 10:48 AM
If you look at things on an international basis it gets worse for Jive and WCS. WCS isn’t even that big in the USA (the place of its birth). We have travelled quite a bit over the last 3 years. We have always found somewhere to Tango/Salsa. Could not find any Jive/WCS.
:yeah:

I totally agree with you Ian, as enjoyable as MJ is, it is certainly not an international dance, although that does not mean that you can't get up as a couple and dance it most places, however, my own experience is that
I have been able to find a Salsa venue in every country that I have been in.
True, Salsa venues are usually smaller, but much more plentiful. Again, although I am not into Tango, I can say that I have seen it available in most countries. We must try and see dance in its broader perspective.:cheers:

Sugarfoot
28th-October-2007, 12:21 PM
:yeah:

I totally agree with you Ian, as enjoyable as MJ is, it is certainly not an international dance, although that does not mean that you can't get up as a couple and dance it most places, however, my own experience is that
I have been able to find a Salsa venue in every country that I have been in.
True, Salsa venues are usually smaller, but much more plentiful. Again, although I am not into Tango, I can say that I have seen it available in most countries. We must try and see dance in its broader perspective.:cheers:

Thanks Wes, I was starting to think I was being ignored on this forum ;)
Have one back :cheers:

It seems that people would rather discuss why there isn't a thread than actually start one. I will try and turn the negative into a positive by startng a new thread with my original post.

Sugarfoot
28th-October-2007, 12:25 PM
It seems that people would rather discuss why there isn't a thread than actually start one. I will try and turn the negative into a positive by startng a new thread with my original post.

Ah...I take that back...I see Martin Harper has beaten me to it. :blush:

Lynn
28th-October-2007, 01:15 PM
It seems that people would rather discuss why there isn't a thread than actually start one. I will try and turn the negative into a positive by startng a new thread with my original post.I was thinking that too. Ok - we have enough people who have an MJ background, are on this forum, attend some MJ events and are trying to learn WCS - even if its only with occasional weekend workshops, and feeling frustrated because there aren't any local classes. So off we go then!

NZ Monkey
28th-October-2007, 08:10 PM
The perception of the Jive world is that ‘it’ is the biggest social dance form and that everything revolves around it. This simply is not true. It has a relative popularity in the UK, but that is it. I would say that Salsa has larger overall numbers in the UK. They don’t generally have such big venues but there are more of them. Although there are probably less numbers in Tango, once again it is available in most large towns and cities with some large hotspots. Compare that to WCS???
Perhaps I wasn't clear enough in my first post.

I was trying to say that Tango may not be novel to people in the MJ because it's been around for ages, whereas WCS is the new kid on the block. Just because AT has kicked off big-time in the last 5 years doesn't necessarily mean that will translate to the MJ community.

Is this an ego centric view from the MJ perspective? Yes it is. We were discussing it from a MJ point of view though.... so that seems justified to me.

David Bailey
28th-October-2007, 08:58 PM
Perhaps I wasn't clear enough in my first post.

I was trying to say that Tango may not be novel to people in the MJ because it's been around for ages, whereas WCS is the new kid on the block. Just because AT has kicked off big-time in the last 5 years doesn't necessarily mean that will translate to the MJ community.
Absolutely :yeah:

The "interface" - for want of a better word - between MJ and AT is pretty small - for the vast majority of the music, AT is simply not appropriate. You'd almost find more salsa-able tracks in an average MJ night than tango-able.

Whereas there's a much larger section of standard MJ music which seems to be suitable for WCS - from what I understand it.

Sugarfoot
28th-October-2007, 09:21 PM
Absolutely :yeah:

The "interface" - for want of a better word - between MJ and AT is pretty small - for the vast majority of the music, AT is simply not appropriate. You'd almost find more salsa-able tracks in an average MJ night than tango-able.

Whereas there's a much larger section of standard MJ music which seems to be suitable for WCS - from what I understand it.

:what: Hmm...I have to disagree with you on all counts here David. We have attended/taught at almost every major Jive weekender over the last 3 years and teach at other normal Jive venuess. My experience is that I am finding more and more jivers that also now Tango and are attempting to put Tango into their jive. Mandy and I find that we can put Tango in at most jive events. The trick is to double step to the faster tracks. You can't just walk slowly and sick in an ocho etc. As for salsa...Mandy is a Salsa teacher and I can hold my own, but it is rare that either of us can salsa at any jive event. Unless I am DJing and picking the right kind of R&B tracks to suit both salsa & jive.:rolleyes:

David Bailey
29th-October-2007, 09:00 AM
:what: Hmm...I have to disagree with you on all counts here David. We have attended/taught at almost every major Jive weekender over the last 3 years and teach at other normal Jive venuess. My experience is that I am finding more and more jivers that also now Tango and are attempting to put Tango into their jive.
Fair enough - but I was talking about the music (sorry if that wasn't clear) - there seems to be more commonality between MJ and WCS music than between MJ and AT music. The only AT I've heard for MJ is Neo-Tango. Although, possibly, some Milonga music would suit, I suspect that's a bit too brave for most MJ DJs to try...

In addition, WCS "looks" more like MJ to the casual observer than AT does - in terms of the hold, the movements, and so on. Smooth slotted MJ looks even more like WCS.

robd
29th-October-2007, 11:40 PM
Many of the men are wearing Cuban heels. Are they really necessary? Do they really improve the dance? Mandy says she will disown me if I start wearing Cubans.:eek:

I couldn't possibly dance west coast without my cubans :innocent: (that's a private joke but pertinent)

Seriously they seem to give me a better posture for the dance and make the movements required a whole lot more natural for me. On the downside wearing them makes my feet ache a lot more and a lot sooner than flat shoes ever did.



So, once again, why has no-one started a "learning WCS" thread?


They have. Twice (see Lynn's earlier post - I suggested her new thread be merged with the existing one at the time). However they haven't been taken forward - the LT thread was very much the exception to the rule in this regard.

ducasi
30th-October-2007, 12:26 AM
:eek: Hope that wasn't me... :blush:

No, it was me.

I merged Lynn's "Learning WCS" thread with my "Learning West Coast Swing (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/land-1000-dances/8592-learning-west-coast-swing.html)" thread.

I'm now going to merge the new one with my (and Lynn's) old ones.

timbp
30th-October-2007, 06:56 AM
MJ and AT are almost the same dance, so the same forum is appropriate.
WCS has different footwork, so should be discussed elsewhere.

MJ is an improvisational, lead-follow partner dance, with the basic step being a walk, and the partners usually moving independently.
AT is an improvisational, lead-follow partner dance based on walking, with the partners usually moving together.


Also, I have seen on the Internet a description of current WCS as "Modern Jive with triple steps" [no I can't find the reference right now].

Martin
30th-October-2007, 07:39 AM
It's just occurred to me, I've never read anything from anyone describing how they learn WCS?

Why is that?

duh, this is a MJ forum.... there is a WCS forum.... not trying to be negative, thing is, if you are into WCS, go post on that forum :love:

Not seen a "how I first learnt cha cha cha" either :really:

have read down a bit and expecting a flaming,,, but REALLY - if you want to talk a lot about other dance syles... join thier forums

[Blues of course is different, blues is now part of MJ :wink:] :D

Martin
30th-October-2007, 07:42 AM
MJ and AT are almost the same dance, so the same forum is appropriate.


Wow, so as I can MJ, I can almost now AT !!!

cool

however I do personally disagree a lot on this one... but then again, we all have different views.

timbp
30th-October-2007, 09:14 AM
Wow, so as I can MJ, I can almost now AT !!!
Yeah. I wish it were that easy myself.


however I do personally disagree a lot on this one... but then again, we all have different views.
How exactly do you disagree?

I gave definitions of both dances in an earlier post. And I've never said skill in one dance requires skill in another.

David Bailey
30th-October-2007, 09:21 AM
MJ and AT are almost the same dance, so the same forum is appropriate.
:rofl:
OK, that one's definitely going into my sig.


MJ is an improvisational, lead-follow partner dance, with the basic step being a walk, and the partners usually moving independently.
AT is an improvisational, lead-follow partner dance based on walking, with the partners usually moving together.

:rofl: :rofl: Stop it, you're killing me...

David Bailey
30th-October-2007, 09:23 AM
duh, this is a MJ forum.... there is a WCS forum.... not trying to be negative, thing is, if you are into WCS, go post on that forum :love:
Sure, if you're approaching it from scratch.

But if you're learning Dance X, and your only previous dance experience is MJ, this is the best place to share common experiences and problems.


have read down a bit and expecting a flaming,,, but REALLY - if you want to talk a lot about other dance syles... join thier forums
So, did you not notice the section title?

Feelingpink
30th-October-2007, 09:31 AM
MJ and AT are almost the same dance, so the same forum is appropriate.No, they aren't 'almost the same'.



MJ is an improvisational, lead-follow partner dance, with the basic step being a walk, and the partners usually moving independently.
AT is an improvisational, lead-follow partner dance based on walking, with the partners usually moving together. ...Remind us how many AT lessons you've done to come up with this conclusion? :whistle:

timbp
30th-October-2007, 09:57 AM
No, they aren't 'almost the same'.


MJ is an improvisational, lead-follow partner dance, with the basic step being a walk, and the partners usually moving independently.
AT is an improvisational, lead-follow partner dance based on walking, with the partners usually moving together. ...

Remind us how many AT lessons you've done to come up with this conclusion? :whistle:
Not many.

Where exactly have I gone wrong?

tiger
30th-October-2007, 10:31 AM
[QUOTE=timbp;423577]MJ and AT are almost the same dance, so the same forum is appropriate.
WCS has different footwork, so should be discussed elsewhere.



:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

What planet are you on??

Martin
30th-October-2007, 10:37 AM
Sure, if you're approaching it from scratch.

But if you're learning Dance X, and your only previous dance experience is MJ, this is the best place to share common experiences and problems.


Ok, point taken :respect:



So, did you not notice the section title?


Yeah and that is what I was answering - so I thougt
hence the duh,,,, of course not a huge emphasis on other dance styles...

--- but then again --- as I say I see your point :cheers:

David Bailey
30th-October-2007, 10:53 AM
Not many.

Where exactly have I gone wrong?
OK...

Your original comment was:

MJ is an improvisational, lead-follow partner dance, with the basic step being a walk, and the partners usually moving independently.
AT is an improvisational, lead-follow partner dance based on walking, with the partners usually moving together.

So:

Arguably the basic lead units in AT are steps, whereas the basic lead units in MJ are moves - at least, based on how the majority of teaching in each style is done.
The emphasis on "moving together" compared to "moving independently" doesn't really make sense to me. Both dances are led, and both have room for interpretation, musicality and improvisation. In neither dance is it a good idea for the follower to just wander off and do her own thing, ignoring the lead.
The basic step in MJ is not a walk - the basic "step" is the First Move, more-or-less.
Apart from that, you've ignored many important areas of difference - for example, the musical structure and timing, the hold, the progressive (tango) vs. stationary (MJ) comparison, and of course the shoes :grin:.

Martin
30th-October-2007, 10:56 AM
Firstly I take on DavidJames' point that if a MJ dancer, maybe talk of other styles a bit, as people branch out and try new things, but never claim to be an expert in it, unless you are (not a dig to anyone at all, just a general comment).


MJ and AT are almost the same dance, so the same forum is appropriate.




How exactly do you disagree?


I exactly disagree, as they are NOT almost the same, in frame, body lead, attitude, complexity of footwork in Tango, as opposed to the free-form style of MJ, where it takes many dance styles, simplifies and provides far more flexibility in lifts, drops and other stuff.

timbp
30th-October-2007, 11:30 AM
Arguably the basic lead units in AT are steps, whereas the basic lead units in MJ are moves - at least, based on how the majority of teaching in each style is done.
I suppose that depends on the teachers.
I believe in MJ I lead steps, rather than moves, but who can judge?


The emphasis on "moving together" compared to "moving independently" doesn't really make sense to me. Both dances are led, and both have room for interpretation, musicality and improvisation. In neither dance is it a good idea for the follower to just wander off and do her own thing, ignoring the lead.

I was trying to convey the difference betweeen the basic accordion (in-out) movement of MJ --- in which the parters are moving in opposite directions --- and AT in which the follower moves only where the leader suggests, which is usually where the leader is moving.


The basic step in MJ is not a walk - the basic "step" is the First Move, more-or-less.
The First Move is a combination of steps -- and the basis of all those steps is walking.

Apart from that, you've ignored many important areas of difference - for example, the musical structure and timing, the hold, the progressive (tango) vs. stationary (MJ) comparison, and of course the shoes :grin:.
yeah, whatever!

Martin
30th-October-2007, 11:56 AM
I believe in MJ I lead steps, rather than moves, but who can judge?





I would say you lead moves and not steps, which is 80% (or more) of MJ (for most). I am a judge (but only for comps - not for social freestyle - not for life in general), so do tell me how I am wrong, as I am not judging now, just observing MJ.

Do tell how you lead steps and not moves :grin:

David Bailey
30th-October-2007, 11:58 AM
I suppose that depends on the teachers.
Absolutely, but the majority of MJ teachers teach moves, and the majority of AT teachers teach steps.


I believe in MJ I lead steps, rather than moves, but who can judge?
Me too - but, I'm talking about how the dance is taught.


I was trying to convey the difference betweeen the basic accordion (in-out) movement of MJ --- in which the parters are moving in opposite directions --- and AT in which the follower moves only where the leader suggests, which is usually where the leader is moving.
I see your point, but I still disagree :) - it's possible to move apart in AT, there are "rebound" type motions, which are very useful for super-fast giros and things like that. Also, I don't personally think the in-and-out is a basic MJ movement - mmm, actually yes, I guess it's a basic movement, just not the only one.


The First Move is a combination of steps -- and the basis of all those steps is walking.
Yeah, but you could say that about any two partner dances really, so that's not really relevant.

I still think WCS is a more "natural" interface to MJ than AT...

DavidY
30th-October-2007, 01:59 PM
On a few occasions I've started a MJ dance with someone, and ended up lapsing into WCS, sometimes by accident. On one occasion I was chatting to someone while dancing :blush: and I didn't even notice we'd changed to WCS for a few moves (or possibly "patterns").

Does this ever happen in AT?

(I think there's also a whole new topic there of whether it's wise to mix WCS and MJ on the same day. :wink: )

robd
30th-October-2007, 02:18 PM
I'm going to sound like my best hotshotty self here and also add that there are few people here both willing to discuss WCS technique and skilled enough at the dance to do so in an impactful manner. When we're all in the dark we need somebody to enlighten us and there just isn't anybody here to do that (i.e. AFAIC we're all beginners, some a bit less so than others but still early in their WCS journey).


A 'Learning WCS' thread could be about people's experiences (and I think in various posts dotted about there is stuff like this just not concentrated into one thread, like LT is) - it doesn't have to be by people who are skilled practitioners. Amir doesn't contribute much to the LT thread does he?


I would leave that to more able people than myself.

See above


Those who can, dance
Those who can't, post

Fallen on your own sword with that one maybe Miguel :wink:


this all sounds like the feeble embarassed-silence-type of excuses I heard when I repeatedly asked how that Jango thing actually worked in practice.


Just because people don't choose to respond to you (not matter how many times you repeat the request) doesn't mean there isn't an answer out there.



The Learning Tango thread has had great information on venues, teachers, technique tips, problem moves, but most of all, a shared joy and frustration with fellow learners at attempting to make sense of it all.

I would have loved the same 'space' on here to do that, but there doesn't seem to be the interest. Or, aside from a few individuals, the same enthusiasm for those a bit further along the path helping those trying to start out. I have no idea why this is.

You can't force it - there are plenty of people on here who are learning WCS but haven't the time or inclination to post about their experiences. That needn't stop you, if you are so inclined in putting forward your views (assuming you can put up with the inevitable 'yeah but it's not AT is it' interludes from a certain moderator :rolleyes: AT is hard, true but that in itself doesn't make it worthy. Nor interesting.



Whereas there's a much larger section of standard MJ music which seems to be suitable for WCS - from what I understand it.

The music that tends to be played at WCS events and in some COZ type environments is one of the reasons I have favoured learning WCS over continuing to learn Jango/Tango.

Gerry
30th-October-2007, 02:31 PM
The music that tends to be played at WCS events and in some COZ type environments is one of the reasons I have favoured learning WCS over continuing to learn Jango/Tango.[/quote]


I am in complete agreement concerning the WCS music:cheers:

ZW played some great tracks in the boudoir at Brean:worthy:

David Bailey
30th-October-2007, 03:15 PM
Just because people don't choose to respond to you (not matter how many times you repeat the request) doesn't mean there isn't an answer out there.
Ah, but people respond on other topics, even to me :grin:
Also, Amir conceded a while back that people don't dance Jango socially, which he's tried to address.


On a few occasions I've started a MJ dance with someone, and ended up lapsing into WCS, sometimes by accident. On one occasion I was chatting to someone while dancing :blush: and I didn't even notice we'd changed to WCS for a few moves (or possibly "patterns").

Does this ever happen in AT?
Not to me - the interface between MJ and AT is tricky - hence the problems dancing Jango socially. In fact, I think it's harder to dance Jango than either MJ or AT - it's like walking a tightrope, it's difficult not to fall over into one camp or the other.

Lynn
30th-October-2007, 08:36 PM
You can't force it - there are plenty of people on here who are learning WCS but haven't the time or inclination to post about their experiences. I'm not trying to force anything, I'd just love there to be that sort of space on here. I think the number of people on here doing some WCS probably well exceeds those learning AT. But that's just my personal opinion, I've benefitted from the LT thread, even just this week, with comments and moral support to get back to AT after a gap of 8 months.


The music that tends to be played at WCS events and in some COZ type environments is one of the reasons I have favoured learning WCS over continuing to learn Jango/Tango.Though you can do AT to quite a lot of music that isn't tango music.

But yes, while I enjoy having the occasional AT dance at MJ events, generally if I want to dance AT I go to a milonga.