Smoking in the real world...

[Pammy]

Following on from Andy M's thread on whether people found smoking acceptable in a venue, I would be interested to know how many dancers are actually smokers (in the real, non-ceroc world; if such a thing exists!:wink: )

I am a non smoker and would be really interested to know the percentages of those who partake v. those who don't.

Px

[Aleks]

Where's the option for "social smoker"???

I know it's still smoking.....but does 2 cigarettes a fortnight in the pub when sloshed still count as being a smoker?

[Dance Demon]

Originally posted by Aleks
Where's the option for "social smoker"???



There's no such thing.....smoking is a VERY antisocial habit:D :devil:

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Dance Demon
There's no such thing.....smoking is a VERY antisocial habit:D :devil: Quite agree.....

Steve

[Daphne]

Originally posted by Aleks
Where's the option for "social smoker"???

I know it's still smoking.....but does 2 cigarettes a fortnight in the pub when sloshed still count as being a smoker?


A smoker is a smoker. There's no such thing as a social smoker in the medical world.

[Doc Iain]

Originally posted by Scooby Doo
A smoker is a smoker. There's no such thing as a social smoker in the medical world.


quite agree. Having just finished some research involving smokers with chronic bronchitis and emphysema I can second this. EVERYONE of them told me to tell all my patients in the future not to take up smoking. and I have to say when u see the effects on someone's life of having to have 15 hours plus of oxygen a day really does make you think!
On being questined as to whether one of the patients can do much activity he answered "yes of course, I can get all around the house -i have cut myself a long pipe to always be atached to the oxygen cylinder" and without i asked? "well, can't really getout of the chair!"

:really:

[Boomer]

Yep, I'm a smoker, sick of it. Will be giving up on Friday, too many beers this week, old enough to be a realist. It waits 'til Friday. Smoking, the only club where 99% of members wish they hadn't joined.....apart from the Notts Co. fan club:D :yum:

[Neil]

Originally posted by Boomer
Smoking, the only club where 99% of members wish they hadn't joined.....apart from the Notts Co. fan club There's only one thing worse than being a member of the Notts fan club - being a Forest supporter :eek: :eek: :eek:

Neil

[Boomer]

Originally posted by Neil
There's only one thing worse than being a member of the Notts fan club - being a Forest supporter :eek: :eek: :eek:

Neil

We're goin' up ba da daaa! You're goin' down ba da duuu! Catapult - lady-spin to that baby!:yum: :D

Boink said zeebadee, time for bed.

[Graham]

Originally posted by Aleks
Where's the option for "social smoker"???
Isn't interesting that this is a phrase used only by smokers? As has already been demonstrated, non-smokers don't find it in the least social!

Originally posted by Aleks
I know it's still smoking.....but does 2 cigarettes a fortnight in the pub when sloshed still count as being a smoker? I find it difficult to believe that a packet of ML lasts you more than 4 months (assuming you didn't share any).

[Aleks]

Originally posted by Dance Demon
There's no such thing.....smoking is a VERY antisocial habit:D :devil: OK, OK - I'm an antisocial smoker.

[Pammy]

Originally posted by Doc Iain
quite agree. Having just finished some research involving smokers with chronic bronchitis and emphysema I can second this.

As a fully paid up member of the "you-know-what-SQUAD", I take it you have yet to study furred up arteries from greasy food?!? :wink:

I think Grahams point is interesting about social smokers, and how us non-smokers find that hard to understand. I used to know someone who said he didn't smoke, he only had one or two for stress reasons :confused: . Is this complete denial or is there any truth the only considering yourself a smoker if you NEED a cigarette, rather than if you CHOOSE to have one.

No offence to smokers, but personally, I think if a cigarette passes your lips, WHENEVER, you're a smoker.

Bet Greg carries cigarettes in his bag even though he doesn't smoke; he's got everything else in there afterall ! :wink:

Px

[azande]

Well, after all the threads and posts about (against) smoking I thought of being a bit controversial.
I smoke and I enjoy it.
I'm a bit fed up of hearing how antisocial it is and how bad for my health it is.
Antisocial... I've been smoking for more than half of my life and it never happened to me that someone in a pub sitting at the same table got up and moved just because I was smoking.
I'd like to think I respect people who don't smoke, so much that I was one of the few who went to smoke outside Marcos even before the ban and if I'm at someone's place and they don't smoke I'll go outside to have a cigarette. And as it happened to me last week on holiday, I was in a restaurant near the end of my meal and a family with a pregnant woman came in the restaurant; she asked please to not smoke since she was sitting to the table next to mine and I gladly obliged.
I still have to see proof that breathing other people's smoke is more dangerous than breathing polluted air and I never heard anyone complaining about cars.
If you feel it is so bad for you, does it mean you don't even put your nose in a pub? Surely that is the worst place to be!
Bad for my health... yes I know it is, just as drinking or fried food is bad for your health but I still have to see campaigns for the banning of alcohol or bad food. Furthermore I think drinking is more antisocial than smoking. How many times someone has been punched or worse because of people who get aggressive just because they are ****ed? Or people who have serious injuries because of drink driving?
So, please, let's put things in perspective.

[Aleks]

Originally posted by Pammy
Is .... there any truth the only considering yourself a smoker if you NEED a cigarette, rather than if you CHOOSE to have one.

We're always in choice!

I am aware of a few of the things that trigger my choice to smoke a cigarette and am working to either avoid them or find a way to stop it pushing my "smoker" button.

Smoking is a crutch people use to either cope with or avoid things - working out what these things are is the first step to stopping smoking (so I tell my smoker clients).

One day (SOON!) I will walk my talk and practice what I preach!:wink:

[TheTramp]

Sorry. Can't agree with you Azande.....

Not matter how considerate you try to be, it's very unlikely that you'll never inconvienience a non-smoker. Smokers don't realise just how far smoke travels, and, even smoking outside can be just as bad - especially where groups of smokers gather outside a non-smoking place. Every time I go into college, I have to walk through a cloud of haze outside the building, because smokers gather there because the college has a non-smoking policy, and I can't tell you how much I detest this.

The difference between breathing smoke, and breathing in polluted air from car fumes, is that cars are a necessary evil, and everyone benefits from them. Even if you don't own one, I'd consider it very unlikely that you never go in one to get places. Not to mention all the services that motor vehicles in general provide (bringing your groceries to the supermarket etc.). Smoking provides benefits (if you can look at it like that) to one person only. Yourself.

As for going into pubs. I very rarely do that. Totally because of the smoke haze that usually exists therein. Even in an almost empty pub, just one person smoking can affect the whole pub. Again, I really think that even 'considerate' smokers don't realise just how far cigarette smoke can travel - especially indoors. And as for restaurants, there is no question that they MUST have a complete non-smoking policy. Or maybe 2 rooms. With an airlock inbetween. So, people who smoke, adversely affect my choice of things that I can do.

I have never been affected by drunken behaviour. Maybe this is because I don't choose to go to pubs, because of the smoking there :na: But I've never been punched, or worse because of the effects of drink. I cannot tell you how many times that smoking has caused me to have an asthma attack though - because I don't think I can count that high. This is on a personal level of course. I do agree that there are unfortunate incidents that arise because of drunken behaviour, and quite agree that people shouldn't get into that state (of course, I very rarely even have one drink, so it's again easy for me to take the moral high ground here too).

However, I'm not against the banning of smoking. If you want to smoke in the privacy of your own home, then I quite agree that it is well within your personal rights to do so. Of course, you will quite possibly be doing yourself harm, but again, if you want to do that, who am I to stop you? I just wish that you wouldn't!

Steve

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by azande

Bad for my health... yes I know it is, just as drinking or fried food is bad for your health but I still have to see campaigns for the banning of alcohol or bad food. Furthermore I think drinking is more antisocial than smoking. How many times someone has been punched or worse because of people who get aggressive just because they are ****ed? Or people who have serious injuries because of drink driving?
So, please, let's put things in perspective.

Some good points there Azande. I dont think anyone (generally) has any particular dislike for smokers, its just the smoke. Whereas most people have at least a passing dislike to drunk people, and yes, alcohol is far worse in my opinion too. Personally i do stay away from smoky pubs as i dont like the smoke, but if i was in a pub and someone with me smoked i wouldnt consider it anti-social at all, its their choice - and my choice to be in a pub in the first place :).

There are probably more campaigns against alcohol and bad food than smoking if you think about it. By-laws ban alchohol in public places, binge drinking has been criticised in the press a lot, drink driving is a serious social problem still - and theres not a day goes by that there isnt something about food in the press, look at the upsurge in organic produce too. We've not quite got to the American obsession with eradicating smoking (and smokers :)) yet :).

[Pammy]

Originally posted by azande
[B]Antisocial... I've been smoking for more than half of my life and it never happened to me that someone in a pub sitting at the same table got up and moved just because I was smoking.

Well, I must admit that if I was sitting next to you, and you lit up, I'd get up and leave. Perhaps it wouldn't be obvious why I was leaving, but that's what the reason would be. I'm not the sort of person that would shout out "Bloody Smokers!", but I wouldn't want to sit passively inhaling.


If you feel it is so bad for you, does it mean you don't even put your nose in a pub? Surely that is the worst place to be!

Like Trampy, I won't go in pubs because of the smoke. I hate coming out with sticky hair and hands from cigarette smoke. I'm not a drinker either, but it would be nice to go somewhere socially like a pub to chat with friends in an informal atmosphere, but because of smokers, this isn't possible.


How many times someone has been punched or worse because of people who get aggressive just because they are ****ed? Or people who have serious injuries because of drink driving?

This I do agree with though, people who drink excessively do spoil things for those around them. Luckily if you're careful you don't bump into that many sloshed drinkers. The difference is that you highlight this as obviously you don't drink to excess, whereas if you did, you'd probably say *It's my choice to drink and I don't see how it effects other people*

Some of my best friends are smokers. I just wish they'd stop before they do themselves (and others) harm.

[Dance Demon]

just picking up on the pub theme here. I was a pub manager for a number of years. I am also a non smoker. I didn't have the luxury of choosing whether I stayed or left, I had to be there, day in ,day out, inhaling the smoke of hundreds of smokers. It's not always down to personal choice. Some might say if you don't like inhaling other peoples smoke, you shouldn't work in a pub, but why should other peoples selfishness stop me from earning a living in my chosen profession? I will confess at this point that I used to smoke as a teenager, and I was partial to the odd cigar now and then, but having watched my father, a committed 60 a day man, first have a stroke, then lose both legs above the knee, then eventually die, mainly due to the effects of cigarettes, I am a firmly committed non smoker. It worries me that some of my friends are at risk of suffering the same fate as my father, and inflicting it on others through passive smoking, yet still put up am argument that it is their human right to do so. I agree with Steve, in that if you want to do it in the privacy of your own home, fine, but don't inflict ill health on me without my consent........:angry:

[PeterL]

Reading this I have to agree totally.
I am a smoker and wish I wasn't.
I will be quitting soon (though after the stress of my wedding).

having worked as a croupier even being a smoker I felt sick and hada sore throat from having smoke breathed on me all night.
Smokers don't realise that they have killed a lot of the sensitivity to smoke and so don't get the full effect of passive smoke when they have to breathe it in. Being a smoker I realise that smoke has less affect on me, I have desensitised myself to it. The only problem is I am addicted, and have to smoke to be normal (don't flame me for that statement, the first step of quitting something is admitting you have a problem).

As far as smokers having places to go I don't think they should have to just do it in there own homes but there should be areas where they can smoke where they do not affect others, oustside is always a good option but doorways are not as theTramp points out. Smoking is the hardest drug to quit because it is a social drug that is sold on every street corner when you are quitting you turn on the tele and see smoke you walk down the road you see smoke.
I understand why smokers get so annoyed as well, especially smokers older than myself, they were bought up with it as social they have paid extra taxes all there lifes because of it and even when they try to accomadate non-smokers they get demonised, the truth is most smokers wish they weren't whether they admit it to you or not, and believe it or not anti-smoking ads, and complaining at smokers normally just makes us think of fags and makes us want one.

There is no perfect answer, smokers should be considerate, non-smokers should have the same compassion they have for drug addicts, but should ask them not to skmoke round them especially if they have asthma.
I don't fully know what my point is here but please ask me not to smoke near you if I do and also stop demonising people with a problem, believe it or not we already know and feel bad enough already.

:blush: :blush: :blush: :blush: :blush: :sorry :blush:

[Boomer]

Dr Iain, please make amendments as necessary...or anybody elso in the know.
I consider myself to be a fairly well-read layman on health, but no expert. The initial response a lot of smokers give on this subject, namely, ‘I know its bad, but so is drinking’ I consider to be slightly inaccurate. As far as I’m aware, a cigarette has no beneficial properties what so ever 1 or 2 drinks (and I mean 1 or 2) is or is being shown to have to have some positive effects. There is a strong feeling that a glass or two of red-wine is a factor in the ‘French contradiction’ i.e. they eat more cholesterol than the British, but have a lower level of heart disease. This is simplified I know, please refer to my ‘layman’ comments.

Smoking is an addiction, smokers are addicted. I of course include myself in this. Comparing a cigarette to a drink and a smoker to a drinker only works if one is (correctly) comparing smoking to alcoholism. Ok, we don’t ‘duff’ people up, or become dangerous drivers after 10 tubes of heavy (B&H) but we are addicted to a substance.

Yes there are and have been campaigns for the banning of alcohol, not outright but in a certain context or environment. There are plenty of areas where you are forbidden for drinking on the streets. I recently read about one area in Eire where the police began to issues yellow-cars to people drinking on the streets, outside pubs. Drinking in an inappropriate environment will increasingly become ‘legislated’ against. Nasty, smelly food? Public transport has been trying to educate travellers to not eat Mc******* or similar on its vehicles. I have a suspicion that in time you will be refused entry to a bus if you’re carrying a bag of B**-m****.. The point is, no-one (more or less) is trying to ban smoking par-see, but they are trying to define a space that is free of smoke. I can’t blame them, I hate it when the cretin on the next table at dinner lights up half way through someone else’s meal. I used to work in a VERY smoky environment, and breathing smoke in a cashiers face in my little bookies was a one warning event – do it again and you’re barred mate.

Having just woken up, my pints, and my main thrust may be a bit muddy - my apologies.

[Dance Demon]

I seem to recall being on a residential course, with other pub managers, and at breakfast one morning, one of them fired up an incredibly smelly pipe, when I was enjoying my full cooked brekky..........now that's inconsiderate:angry: :angry:
I don't think I was too polite in asking him to remove himself from the dining room:D

[Pammy]

Hail Boomer! :waycool:

And Boomer, don't worry; after a night out with the rest of us, we'll have you off of the ciggies and onto the fast food in no-time!!! :wink:

Px

[Boomer]

Originally posted by Pammy
Hail Boomer! :waycool:

And Boomer, don't worry; after a night out with the rest of us, we'll have you off of the ciggies and onto the fast food in no-time!!! :wink:

Px

There goes the physique :sad: And it was just starting to get somewhere:tears: Goodbye future six-pack, goodbye delts and ants hello triple chin, pot'belly and copious amounts of sweat when I dance:tears: :tears: Not that I'll be dancing much, who's gonna dance with a big fat sweaty like me:sad: :tears:

Thanks Pammy(tm)

[azande]

Originally posted by Pammy
Hail Boomer! :waycool:

And Boomer, don't worry; after a night out with the rest of us, we'll have you off of the ciggies and onto the fast food in no-time!!! :wink:

Px

Wow. What a swap!

[azande]

Sorry DD but I don't agree with you regarding the pub. I call that "occupational hazard". You want to do a job and that job has certain characteristics. Working in an environment full of smoke is one of them, (like working in a casino). You could have always banned smoking in the pub ( but that wouldn't have been financially viable, would it?) or if you were just employed there you could have left and opened a bar where smoking was banned.
Sorry to hear about your father but my great grandad who smoked 40 cigarettes and 5-6 cigars a day died at 93 of natural age and my grandad, who was a smoker until he was 70 died at 87 of something completely different. Two different examples.

Peter, I don't want people to treat me with the same compassion as drug addict, I have seen lots of them and I assure you is not the same thing.

[Pammy]

Originally posted by Boomer
who's gonna dance with a big fat sweaty like me:sad: :tears:

Thanks Pammy(tm)

Erm, me(tm), so long as you leave the gorilla suit outside; *the monkey phobia thing*

Yep, me!! Sweaty is a must isn't it? As long as it's not stale sweaty :sick:

Oh, and just a quicky (this isn't worth starting a whole new thread for), but who saw the tv prog. on the 100 Club last night, with all the jivers/lindy hoppers on there. Loads of familiar faces, great little feature. Who's up for a *group* trip to the 100 Club in the near future then? :grin:

Px

[Boomer]

Gorillas = great-apes (humans to) monkeys = chittering little buggers who bite and steal food.

Ok I have 1 person to dance with, leaves only one small problem...‘Ok class , offer your hand to the lady, semi-circle to the left, step back facing the lady.....I said facing the lady!’

‘I cant, my arms aren’t long enough!’

Bigfatsweatygorilla leaves class in tears, dragging stomach behind him. Starts smoking again.

Had to touch on the subject again. Giving up is a bugger.

[Graham]

Originally posted by azande
I still have to see proof that breathing other people's smoke is more dangerous than breathing polluted air and I never heard anyone complaining about cars.Try going up to George Street this coming Sunday - I'm sure you'll be able to find someone happy to complain! :grin: Click for details of Car Free Festival (http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/CEC/CarFreeFest/)

[PeterL]

Originally posted by azande

Sorry to hear about your father but my great grandad who smoked 40 cigarettes and 5-6 cigars a day died at 93 of natural age and my grandad, who was a smoker until he was 70 died at 87 of something completely different. Two different examples.




This is a non-argument. Some people are susceptible to the harmful affects of smoke some are not, not all smokers die from smoking, in fact 4 out of 5 don't. but 20% death rate is a big risk to take. Granted it is our choice. The point of this thread is that non-smokers don't have a choice and many of them are susceptible to the harmful affects of smoking- they haven't chosen to take that risk.

As far as occupational hazard is concerned- I had to put up with people purposefully blowing smoke in my face because they were annoyed, I have nothing against and would condone any policies of don't smoke at the bar but in the smoking area designated.

When I smoke I do not want it affecting other people- some facilities give you no choice, they are already smoky and you figure what the h*** but that does not make me right to do it.

As far as being a drug addict is concerned a smoker is a drug addict end of story, it may not be as bad as other drugs but it is a drug which many of us feel trapped and controlled by.

[PeterL]

Originally posted by azande

I still have to see proof that breathing other people's smoke is more dangerous than breathing polluted air and I never heard anyone complaining about cars.


People said the same about smoking 10 years ago and I have heard lots of people complaining about cars.

[Boomer]

Yes, every rule has an exception and these shuld be factored in. However, I have no desire to find out if I'm the exception (smoked 5 ounces of Golden per day, died at 102 - cause of death heart-attack indduced by 20y/o Irish-redhead) or god knows what at 40, cause? Smoking.

[PeterL]

Germ line polymorphisms of p53 and CYP1A1 genes involved in human lung cancer.

Kawajiri K, Nakachi K, Imai K, Watanabe J, Hayashi S.

Department of Biochemistry, Saitama Cancer Center Research Institute, Japan.

The p53 tumor suppressor gene is mutated in diverse types of human cancer, and the normal allele encodes a nuclear protein that regulates expression of cell cycle-related genes as a transcription factor. The wild-type of p53 protein exists as at least two forms of variants among human populations, ascribed to amino acid replacement at codon 72 of Arg by Pro. In this study, we show that this germ line Arg-Pro polymorphism at codon 72 of the p53 gene is associated with genetically determined susceptibility to smoking-induced lung cancer; a susceptible genotype Pro/Pro has a 1.7-fold higher risk of this cancer compared with other genotypes. This p53 polymorphism modulates risk to smoking-induced lung cancer independently of other genetic risk factors such as germ line polymorphism of CYP1A1 or GST1 genes

As you can see some people are more susceptible than others to harmful affects of different environmental toxins, smoking is one of the easiest preventable of environmental dangers. The point I am making here is that everyone knows a smoker who was fine, they obviously didn't have susceptinle genes, r u willing to take the risk and inflict that risk on others.


by the way I don't fully understanfd the above, I got it from searching the web but what it does tell me is some people are more susceptible to smoking related lung cancer than others and I am sure the same is true for other smoking related diseases.

[azande]

Peter, I know is a non agument. It is just my personal experience of smokers in the family like DD's father is his experience. That's the only point I wanted to make.

As far as drug addicts and smokers, the only common thing is the meaning of the term 'drug addict' and nothing else.

If I smoke is because at a certain level I'm willing to accept the risk, like every other single smoker. Just like if you are a non smoker is your choice to go to the pub or not.

[Pammy]

Originally posted by Boomer
Bigfatsweatygorilla leaves class in tears, dragging stomach behind him. Starts smoking again.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Back to smoking though, I think there's an element of denial in saying 4 out of 5 people who smoke don't die of smoking related illnesses.

It's like saying you might not die from crossing train lines, but would I wouldn't want to play chicken (sorry Chickie, no pun intended!)

Px

[PeterL]

Pammy I was actually making the oppositeargument that 1 out of 5 definitely do.

That is a very high number and a very high risk.
not what I would call denial.
It is a higher risk than playing russian roullete with a six shooter.

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by azande
If I smoke is because at a certain level I'm willing to accept the risk, like every other single smoker. Just like if you are a non smoker is your choice to go to the pub or not. But why should your choice, influence my choice??

The pub is a public place, open to everyone. There are more people now who are non-smokers, than there are smokers.

Why should the minority be allowed to restrict the majority?

I don't want to accept the risk - even more so, I want to be able to breathe. What gives you the right to say that if I want to avoid it, I should not go to a public place??

Steve

[PeterL]

Originally posted by azande

If I smoke is because at a certain level I'm willing to accept the risk, like every other single smoker. Just like if you are a non smoker is your choice to go to the pub or not.


People who work in pubs, don't have a choice and don't say they have a choice whether to work there or not.
You aren't going to be able to claim dole if yyou quit your job because there was smoke in the air

[Pammy]

Pammy(tm) grabs coat and follows Bigfatsweatygorilla, also in tears, behind his dragging stomach and tries to persuade him not to light up!

Incidentally, does anyone know of a non-smoking pub in central London? Does such a thing exist??? Because of smoke, I've stayed out of the pub-scene so long that I don't know the answer...

Px

[Boomer]

I daren't light up noiw! Not after this post you've started! Today you have mostly left me in tears:tears: ,100lbs overwieght:tears: and been the cause of me leaving class!:tears: Also left me petrified of lighting up....no bad thing actually:nice:

"If my 'freedoms' come at the expensive of anothers, the what is the nature of my 'freedom'"? [Isiah Berlin mis-quoted I'm afraid, sorry].

It is your choice is not a really a valid argument...hmmm Azande, not singling you out here at all mate. Tramp's comments are one of many that defeat that line of 'popular' argument. If non-smokers want to go to a pub, but cant because of an 'open smoking' policy in the pub, then my 'freedom' to smoke takes on a decidedly uncomfortable nature. Small steps, such as a smokers area and/or adequate air-con allows both groups to execise an adequate level of 'freedom' of choice.

As for the occupational hazard of work, and you can choose to work there or not! Again this is not personal, but does flick a switch in me. I spent 9-10 years working in betting-shops. I can assure anyone who cares that this was not because I loved the job - I had no choice. An unemployed w/c lad, with no qualifications dances to the devils tune. I was not alone in this situation. Walk into any low paid service-industry job and will likely find the same, or very similar attitude.

"Why do you do this job?" - "It pays the bills". Occupational hazard - maybe, but Health and Safety, while it accepts a level of risk in a work environment, is also quite tough on insisteing that all reasonable steps are made to lessen that risk. In this xase, ventilation, air-con etc. This notwithstanding, breathing smoke into someone else's face because one has a bit of a strop is an absolute no-no! This has little to do with health (IMHO) rather it is an issue of respect/dignity.

Good thread Pammy(who'd have thought you had it in ya:wink: :yum: )

[Doc Iain]

Originally posted by azande

As far as drug addicts and smokers, the only common thing is the meaning of the term 'drug addict' and nothing else.


isn;t that the point? Personally I would not like to be addicted to any chemical to the extent that I cold not stop taking it where and when I wanted. (hence the chip squad, my one and only time for junk food! ) :yum:
Personaly opinion then some facts:
If I invented a new substance that smelt as much, created as much mess AND environmental pollution (all that fag ash dumped in the street) AND was addictive AND made other peoples clothes smell as much etc. etc. it would be banned and would never be allowed to go into production!

82% of smokers take up the habit in their impresionable teenage years (40 children PER DAY!)
worldwide 47% men and 15% women smoke.
In the UK 14% male professionaly smoke cf. 42% unskilled workers (similar for females)
Worldwide tobacco kills 1 in 10 people!!
in the UK life exspectancy of a smoker is 3-12 years less than a non-smoker (about 7 mins per cigarette)
2,400 UK deaths per week
1,220 in middle age or earlier
80% of prescriptions of Statins could be avoided (COST!!!)

50million working days lost
Coronary artery disease accounts for 30% of medical admissions to hospital
COPD is 8% of all working days lost

Lung Cancer is the commonesr cancer causing death in male and females
40,000 new cases per year (>90% are smoking related)
18% due to PASSIVE smoking alone!
5 year survival rate AT PRESENTATON is <10% *(35,000 deaths per year)

in 1951 the mortality rate (how likely it is that u will die in a given year) is 14.9 times higher in smokes

60 of the 4000 compounds in a ml of smoke are know carcinogens (in rats the amount needed to cause Cancer is equivalent to a smoker would et in 25 years -add onto that the genetic susceptibility with the p53 etc.)

Passive smoking increases rates of:
-Lung cancerin children and sposes of smokers
-Deaths from heart attach in sposes of smokers
-Respiratory problems, SIDS, ea infections and asthma attaclks in children of smokers

The world bank estimates that smokeing related health care accounts for 15% of ALL health care costs.
In germany 16.6 Billion Euros are spent on smoking related diseases. 51% being direct costs (ie. in hospital, GP etc.) 49% are indirect (days off work, premature retirement, extra work breaks for a fag etc.)


Ave [I]tobacco industry Morrituriti te Salutant

[Gadget]

As a non smoker that used to frequent pubs and clubs, I never really understood it - everyone knows the health risks.
I have seen people walk for miles home because the choice at the end of the night was taxi or packet of fags. I have been to party's in foggy flats where ash is spilled and trodden into the carpets. I have had to leave jackets airing outside because they stink too much to take them in. I have had to shower when coming in from a pub/club before going out again because my hair stank.

It's not just the anti-social aspect or smell that I don't understand, but more the fact that two packets of cigarettes is the equivelent of a night's dancing plus drinks - how can it compare? :rolleyes:

BTW there are some non-smoking pubs and clubs, but they are few and far between. Socially, we now tend to meet in resteraunts {non-smoking}, but whether that's because we're all growing a bit older or not I don't know.

Another BTW: I just saw in the news (this time last week... spooky) that they are developing anti-smoking vacines: the vacine actually block the pleasure giving chemicals from stimulating the pleasure centers of the brain, removing the 'fix' element. This (in theory) forces the user to go "cold turkey", removing the 'addiction' factor of the niccotine

[PeterL]

This has been a good thread, and the arguments for smoking have actually made me more determined to quit. It will be one of my main priorites after the wedding.

:D :D

[Andy McGregor]

PHEW!

It's not just me. For a moment there I thought I was being unreasonable in my quest for smoke-free dance floors. Now I know I'm not the only one:waycool:

My own thoughts on this are that we should be able to go about our daily lives reducing the risk of an early demise where the risks are known. We have all received health education which tells us about the risk factors - don't breathe cigarette smoke (directly or indirectly), don't eat loads of fatty foods, don't drink alcohol to excess, remove asbestos from our homes and workplaces, have protected sex, take plenty of exercise, see our doctor if we have a change in bowel habit, eat more fruit/fibre, don't spend too long in the sun, etc, etc, etc.

We prioritise items like those above based on factors such as risk, cost, degree of difficulty, etc.

And the expert advice is that giving up smoking is the thing that makes the most difference - giving up should be all smokers No1 priority if they're going to do anything to improve their health and reduce their risk of disease. So not breathing cigarette smoke makes it into my top 10 things to do (protected sex is my No1 - given the chance...). And, as I think a great deal of my friends, I would like to help them reduce their risks too. To remain silent/passive when my friends and family are taking unnecessary risks with their health would be cowardly.

Smokers regularly use the argument 'We're taking other risks so it's OK to smoke' or even 'They say I should give up smoking but they (the government) don't say I should give up xxxx or do yyyy and I know that's important' or even 'I take a risk every time I use the car and I need to do that'. This is a completely unsupportable argument. Why should we take an avoidable risk just because some are unavoidable or more difficult to avoid?

[Pammy]

Originally posted by Boomer
Good thread Pammy(who'd have thought you had it in ya:wink: :yum: )

Had what in me :what: :really: :tears: Graham, I told you to keep quiet!!! :wink:


Originally posted by Andy McGregor
see our doctor if we have a change in bowel habit

:what:

Oh and Dr Iain; you are a master of medical knowledge. Don't suppose you want us to check in with you if we notice a change in Andy's point above ?? :wink:

[Boomer]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
PHEW!

see our doctor if we have a change in bowel

:what: Now children, this kind of comment could, in later life when you discover your 2nd childhood, lead you down many different alleys. I forward that this quote is best served by being forgotton...does anybody second the motion?

[Boomer]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
see our doctor if we have a change in bowel habit

More importantly kiddy-winks, ALWAYS ENSURE YOU QOUTE A POST CORRECTLY. Otherwise it could leave you looking like a burke:tears: :D

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Boomer
:what: Now children, this kind of comment could, in later life when you discover your 2nd childhood, lead you down many different alleys. I forward that this quote is best served by being forgotton...does anybody second the motion?

The quote about the 'change in bowel habit' is quite serious but really only used to illustrate that there are many things we can be doing to stay healthy.

It's quite a tasteful way of describing something which people don't want to talk about and often feel so embarrassed about that they don't present to their GP with symptoms until the disease has progressed further than it might otherwise have done. For more information visit here http://www.coloncancer.org.uk/pdf/knowing.pdf . Most changes in bowel habit are not related to cancer of the colon or rectum but it's nice to have your mind put at rest even if it is a slightly embarrassing subject. And I'm quite keen to do anything I can to promote a positive outlook to personal health and would choose to have a few moments embarrasment with my family doctor rather than the alternatives.

And don't forget, giving up smoking is still the greatest single thing you can do to improve your health and live a longer life.

to bring the thread back to smoking, I applaud the smokers who have entered this debate to defend their choice. It shows a strong will. To be devil's advocate (sorry Gus) for a moment, I have read no credible defence of smokers expecting others to put their health at risk by passive smoking. The only defence offered so far that passive smokers don't mind is not true - see the result of the poll on Smoking and Dancing Don't Mix. The majority don't like it but won't actually confront a smoker at the time.

[Sheepman]

OK this thread has got me out of the closet again . . .

Originally posted by Pammy
but who saw the tv prog. on the 100 Club last night, with all the jivers/lindy hoppers on there. Loads of familiar faces, great little feature. Who's up for a *group* trip to the 100 Club in the near future then?
NO! NO! NO! NO!
I used to go there about twice a week, but it is too too smoky, it has to be an amazing band that's on for me to even faintly consider it (despite the good beer and recent air conditioning).
(BTW did you video the prog?)

And yes I love my beer, wine, etc. though rarely indulge due to dancing and smoky pubs, but even if I have once or twice in my life been unsociably drunk, :grin: this doesn't compare with smokers who are unsociable every time they light up when someone else is around. (I'm not saying alcohol doesn't cause problems, we all know it does, but that's another subject, and doesn't have such an immediate impact on strangers who just happen to be around.)

I totally agree with Pammy and the Tramp on this (is this possible?) and not a whole lot more I can add to their arguments.

Does anyone have contacts in the pub/entertainment/restaurant trade? I think some good could come of this thread getting a wider audience, with so many saying they avoid pubs because of the smoke. Perhaps time for another poll, "Do you avoid going to smoky pubs, restaurants, . . ." (But I'm not doing it 'cos i'm banned.)

And any desparate addicts, don't try looking in my bag, ciggies are one of the few things you won't find in there.

And a word of advice to anyone visiting the USA
NEVER ask someone if you can "bum a fag". :devil:

Greg

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by Gadget
I just saw in the news (this time last week... spooky) that they are developing anti-smoking vacines: the vacine actually block the pleasure giving chemicals from stimulating the pleasure centers of the brain, removing the 'fix' element. This (in theory) forces the user to go "cold turkey", removing the 'addiction' factor of the niccotine
I thought this had been around for sometime already Cyban or something like that from GSK, but it is not effective in everybody.

Greg

[Grant]

Originally posted by Sheepman
And a word of advice to anyone visiting the USA
NEVER ask someone if you can "bum a fag". :devil:

Greg
so you just went ahead and did it without even asking? :really:

that's taking 'have a nice day' a little too literally :wink:

grant

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Sheepman
I totally agree with Pammy and the Tramp on this (is this possible?) and not a whole lot more I can add to their arguments.
What's wrong with agreeing with Pammy??? :confused:

Steve

[azande]

Just a last post and then I'll leave every thread regarding smoking alone.

First of all, Boomer, don't worry I don't feel singled out, I knew perfectly well what was going to happen when I posted and I have been the only one to "support" smoking anyway.

I'm not expecting people to put their health at risk by passive smoking. I don't agree with smoking and dancing (or any other physical exercise) and as I said before I try to be considerate with non smokers and I've never refused to put my cigarette out or move to a different place.

Regarding the poll on smoking and dancing, where I voted that I don't like smokey dancefloors, (obviously being a smoker as Peter said I have a higher tollerance level than non-smokers) it only shows that 12% of the people who voted are making a stand and don't go where smoking is permitted. The rest go even if they don't like it (or hate it), which to me shows that at the end of the day they don't mind it that much.

Occupational hazard. Sorry but I'm unmovable on my position on this. If it really bothers you that there is smoke where you work change job. Supermarkets are always looking for people to fill shelves. If unfortunately it is a job that doesn't pay enough for you, you can always go and do a night course to improve your qualifications. You have the luck that in this country you get free courses if you are unemplyed or cheap ones if on low income.

And let's try to be objective: someone that blow smoke purposefully in your face is not an inconsiderate smoker, he is just plain rude!

My freedon ends where your freedom starts and your fredom ends where mine starts. It's as simple as that and a very difficult balance to reach. Every single one of our choices is influenced by other factors. I have decided for my well being not to go on holiday in Colombia. I always wanted to trek through the jungle and visit the Lost City in the middle of the mountains but I don't want to risk being kidnapped or worse! As I said is my choice as is your choice whether you go to a place that allows smoking or not.

Thanks for listening to the rants of a smoker! :cheers:

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by azande
Regarding the poll on smoking and dancing, where I voted that I don't like smokey dancefloors, (obviously being a smoker as Peter said I have a higher tollerance level than non-smokers) it only shows that 12% of the people who voted are making a stand and don't go where smoking is permitted. The rest go even if they don't like it (or hate it), which to me shows that at the end of the day they don't mind it that much.

Thanks for listening to the rants of a smoker! :cheers:

Hi Azande, it's great that one smoker has joined the debate. Where are the others?

The result of the poll is what it is. To read anything else into it would be inaccurate. 56.36% of responders hate smoky dance floors and a further 12.73% don't like smoky dance floors. They didn't say they 'go even if they don't like it (or hate it)'. To take a view, as azande has done, that the 69.09% who voted don't like or hate smoking 'at the end of the day don't mind it that much' because they didn't vote that they're taking a stand is an abuse of statistics and twisting their words to suit the argument. No wonder the weight of evidence that smoking is bad for you hasn't had the impact it should have done if this is an example of smokers logic :confused:


Originally posted by azande
Occupational hazard. Sorry but I'm unmovable on my position on this. If it really bothers you that there is smoke where you work change job. Supermarkets are always looking for people to fill shelves. If unfortunately it is a job that doesn't pay enough for you, you can always go and do a night course to improve your qualifications. You have the luck that in this country you get free courses if you are unemplyed or cheap ones if on low income.
want to risk being kidnapped or worse! As I said is my choice as is your choice whether you go to a place that allows smoking or not.


The argument about occupational hazards is even weaker. Many people chose their careers before there was clear evidence that passive smoking harms health. It might be too late for them to change career paths. Also, a new career will probably pay less during retraining. And, of course, these jobs need filling with someone so the risk remains the same, just those that are taking the risk change. And times change too, new evidence is brought forward all of the time. At one time people worked with asbestos because nobody had made the association between it and cancer. The don't any more. The same is now true for passive smoking. There is clear evidence of the risk.

Azande is right about freedom of choice when it comes to recreation. We can choose where we go and don't go. What we need is to be able to make an informed choice. We need to know what risks we are taking. If we know that one venue allows smoking and an alternative does not we can make a choice. I think this means that azande and Andy will never meet. And I'm doubly pleased about that 'coz he's bound to be bigger than me:(

One thing that we must not forget in the whole of this debate is that we are not being compelled to smoke. People don't have to do it. There is no basic human need to smoke so smokers are not being denied their human rights when they enter a no smoking environment. But there is an argument that smokers are denying us our right to good health by expecting us to breathe their smoke while we go about our normal daily lives.


Originally posted by azande
Thanks for listening to the rants of a smoker! :cheers:

Azande, please don't make this the last rant. We need more smokers to argue their corner. Nobody expected this to be an easy journey to smoke free dance floors. On the other hand, I might argue that the change is inevitable, why fight it?:devil:

[Aleks]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
The result of the poll is what it is. To read anything else into it would be inaccurate. 56.36% of responders hate smoky dance floors and a further 12.73% don't like smoky dance floors. They didn't say they 'go even if they don't like it (or hate it)'. To take a view, as azande has done, that the 69.09% who voted don't like or hate smoking 'at the end of the day don't mind it that much' because they didn't vote that they're taking a stand is an abuse of statistics and twisting their words to suit the argument. No wonder the weight of evidence that smoking is bad for you hasn't had the impact it should have done if this is an example of smokers logic :confused:

Isn't one of the first thing they teach us in statistics is that you can "prove" anything, as long as you twist the data the right way????

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Aleks
Isn't one of the first thing they teach us in statistics is that you can "prove" anything, as long as you twist the data the right way????

And one of the first things they teach you in marketing is to ask the questions in a way that gives you the answers you want. But in this occasion I wrote the quesionnaire with a 6 point scale so people couldn't really sit on the fence. The top half are saying they are ok with smoky dance floors the bottom half are saying they don't like them. All the rest is measuring how strongly they feel about it.

[Wendy]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
There is no basic human need to smoke so smokers are not being denied their human rights when they enter a no smoking environment. But there is an argument that smokers are denying us our right to good health by expecting us to breathe their smoke while we go about our normal daily lives.
Pretty much what I wanted to say but wouldn't have put it so eloquently.

In any case... where I dance in Scotland it is banned. Result. Now I just have to put up with the smelly hands and smelly breath..... but hey.... people have to put up with me !!!! Jeez....wonder if azande will start a campaign to get me banned for being an ex-smoker... or for wanting to lead.... or for all those other little imperfections of mine.......

Wxxx

[Pammy]

Originally posted by Wendy
or for all those other little imperfections of mine.......


Wendy, you're too nice to get banned! :grin:

[Aleks]

Originally posted by Wendy
Pretty much what I wanted to say but wouldn't have put it so eloquently.

In any case... where I dance in Scotland it is banned. Result. Now I just have to put up with the smelly hands and smelly breath..... but hey.... people have to put up with me !!!! Jeez....wonder if azande will start a campaign to get me banned for being an ex-smoker... or for wanting to lead.... or for all those other little imperfections of mine.......

Wxxx

I would think he's (probably) prepared to "put up" with you just as you are, as long as you're prepared to do the same for him........(and he smokes somewehere else, washes his hands, eats a mint and sprays his clothes and hair) :wink: :grin:

[Wendy]

Originally posted by Aleks
I would think he's (probably) prepared to "put up" with you just as you are, as long as you're prepared to do the same for him........ I have no problem "putting up" with him.. he's a great guy.... a great dancer and probably the most considerate smoker I have met.... he washes his hands, smokes outside etc..... jeez.. he's almost perfect !!!! :wink:

Wxxx

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Wendy
I have no problem "putting up" with him.. he's a great guy.... a great dancer and probably the most considerate smoker I have met.... he washes his hands, smokes outside etc..... jeez.. he's almost perfect !!!! :wink:

Wxxx

I'm starting to fancy him myself :wink: :devil:

[frodo]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Hi Azande, it's great that one smoker has joined the debate.

... before there was clear evidence that passive smoking harms health.
My general impression (mainly from newspapers) was that for every study that showed a link another did not. Didn't know that things had moved on from there.

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by frodo
My general impression (mainly from newspapers) was that for every study that showed a link another did not. Didn't know that things had moved on from there.

The studies that show a link between passive smoking and cancer and other diseases have been done by healthcare professionals. The studies that show no link have been done by tobacco companies. Choose who you trust.

There have been massive awards for damages in the USA for passive smoking related disease. If it wasn't proven there would have been no damages.

Even if we believed the tobacco companies spin we all know that breathing smoke gives us a dry throat and makes us cough. It gives the Tramp asthma attacks. Why should smokers expect us to put up with that? And that's not 3rd party evidence that's what we know as an absolute fact. People do not need to smoke next to dance floors - why should we let them do it to us? Don't go to classes/dances where they expect us to breathe smoke and have a nicer time - and probably live longer.

Why take a risk. We get no pleasure from passive smoking and at best suffer short term discomfort and at worst will shorten our lives - and greedy/ignorant organisers are happy to see it happen. All hail Franck for seeing the light:kiss: Could you bring your franchise to Kent, please:wink:

[azande]

Originally posted by Andy
The result of the poll is what it is. To read anything else into it would be inaccurate. 56.36% of responders hate smoky dance floors and a further 12.73% don't like smoky dance floors. They didn't say they 'go even if they don't like it (or hate it)'

Well, from my understanding of English (which could be flawed since it's not my native language) I see that only 12.73% have said that they don't go to a place that allows smoking. The remaining 87.27% like it or hate it but still go to these places, which makes me think that they don't hate it so much that they don't go. I don't think I'm twisting the statistics. Maybe you should have had a poll saying:

1. I'm making a stand and will only go to a smoking venue
2. I don't like it but I still go to a smoking venue.
3. I'm making a stand and won't go anywhere near a smoky dance floor

In this way people had to be clear on what they decide regarding the subject.


Originally posted by Andy
The argument about occupational hazards is even weaker.

Can't see why. People leave their jobs and retrain for thousands of reasons and are ready to accept the consequences of it, I don't see why this particular reason should be treated as a different thing.


Originally posted by Andy
One thing that we must not forget in the whole of this debate is that we are not being compelled to smoke. People don't have to do it. There is no basic human need to smoke so smokers are not being denied their human rights when they enter a no smoking environment. But there is an argument that smokers are denying us our right to good health by expecting us to breathe their smoke while we go about our normal daily lives.

Mmmmh, yes, just like people are not compelled to go to the pub or dancing. I'm pretty sure that no one is compelled to do anything where it is inevitable for them to be in a smoky environment. We are back to the choices we make in our lives.


Originally posted by Andy
I think this means that azande and Andy will never meet.

I think you are mistaken, because I dance in Scotland where smoking is banned inside the venues and I have never said that I would only go where I can smoke. On the contrary, if I can choose between a venue where smoking is allowed and one where it isn't I would chose the latter. I was at the Edinburgh party a while ago (I think there is a thread somewher about it) where there were people smoking and as soon as I got in the room I noticed it and I didn't like it.


Originally posted by Andy
Azande, please don't make this the last rant. We need more smokers to argue their corner. Nobody expected this to be an easy journey to smoke free dance floors. On the other hand, I might argue that the change is inevitable, why fight it?

As you can see you managed to "twist my arm" and make me post again. Other smokers... I was wondering where they are... I know the change is inevitable and I'm not going to fight it, I will be a reformed smoker one day and I think we will end up like in the Star Wars movie where a guy try to sell "death sticks" to young Obi One. :D

Just for the record it should be clear by now that I agree that smoke free dancefloors is the way it should be!


Originally posted by Wendy
I have no problem "putting up" with him.. he's a great guy.... a great dancer and probably the most considerate smoker I have met.... he washes his hands, smokes outside etc..... jeez.. he's almost perfect !!!! :wink:

Wxxx

Wendy, you are making me blush! :wink:
Be reassured, I'm not going to start a campaign to have you banned. How could I? And as far as I can tell, you don't try to lead anymore (at least with me!).

[Andy McGregor]

On the subject of the poll you are right. If it was a different poll it would measure a different thing.


Originally posted by azande
Can't see why. People leave their jobs and retrain for thousands of reasons and are ready to accept the consequences of it, I don't see why this particular reason should be treated as a different thing.

My reasoning is that even when the people in those jobs leave the occupation and the hazard still exist. It's just that the person in that occupation that is taking the risk that changes. Some people do not have the luxury of choosing between jobs - they have to take what they can get. If we could have free choice in our careers there'd be no Traffic Wardens:wink:


Originally posted by azande
...people are not compelled to go to the pub or dancing. I'm pretty sure that no one is compelled to do anything where it is inevitable for them to be in a smoky environment. We are back to the choices we make in our lives.

You're speaking my language here - even if it is your second language. I'm saying we should avoid venues where we're expected to breathe smoke while we dance. You've already won that battle in Scotland. In my area every single Ceroc venue I've been to allows smoking:sick:


Originally posted by azande
As you can see you managed to "twist my arm" and make me post again. Other smokers... I was wondering where they are... I know the change is inevitable and I'm not going to fight it, I will be a reformed smoker one day and I think we will end up like in the Star Wars movie where a guy try to sell "death sticks" to young Obi One. :D

You deserve respect for putting the smokers side of the argument. But you are being far to reasonable. No-one at dancing is going to have a problem with you. Where are the unreasonable smokers that were smoking in Rochester on Monday? Or even the ones from Bromley? And there's dozens of other venues where they smoke. Come on guys, why do you feel it's acceptable to smoke at the side of the dance floor?


Originally posted by azande
Wendy, you are making me blush! :wink:
Be reassured, I'm not going to start a campaign to have you banned. How could I? And as far as I can tell, you don't try to lead anymore (at least with me!).

Wendy can lead me anytime. I'm fully in touch with my feminine side :waycool:

[Wendy]

Originally posted by azande
Wendy, you are making me blush! :wink:
Be reassured, I'm not going to start a campaign to have you banned. How could I? And as far as I can tell, you don't try to lead anymore (at least with me!). Whew - glad to hear it !!!....But if I am ever crabby, opinionated or try to lead or whatever... people can just ask me to step outside..... :wink:

Wxxx

[Dance Demon]

Originally posted by Wendy
Whew - glad to hear it !!!....But if I am ever crabby, opinionated or try to lead or whatever... people can just ask me to step outside..... :wink:

Wxxx

Behind the bike shed ?:wink:

[Wendy]

Originally posted by Dance Demon
Behind the bike shed ?:wink: No way !!!! Too smoky !!!! :D

Wxxx

[Dance Demon]

As stated previously, I am a non smoker. However thought this was an interesting letter in yesterdays Metro......

In france, politicians are asking themselvesif they should print on a pack of cigarettes, a picture of a smoker dying of cancer, as well as the slogan"smoking kills"
Will the effect be scary enough to discourage the future consumers? The idea is not stupid, and could go far. We could print on packs of sweets, photographs of decaying teeth, and on the labels of bottles of beer or spirits, pictures of people killed or injured by drunk drivers. On all the plastic packages, tins, mineral water bottles, a view of landfill sites, where the rubbish of our society of hyper consumption piles up for centuries and centuries.
On our T shirts, caps and sports shoes,we could see a portrait of the child slaves, that in obscure cellars, somewhere in Asia, sew with their small fingers, the clothing that we will wear only for a few weeks before throwing them away because the colour is not in fashion any more.
It would be necessary also, to affix on every litre of petrol, the picture of an oiled seagull, and on every oil barrel. a picture of the Earth, flooded by the oceans that will soon overflow after the warming of our planet. Or a picture of populations tormented by wars in which the only goal is to preserve the supplying of black gold to richer countries. At the end of the day , the best solution would be to print on bank notes this slogan "can be of great harm to humanity"

bit extreme, but some good points there I thought

[Aleks]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Some people do not have the luxury of choosing between jobs - they have to take what they can get.

Rubbish (IMHO)!
You take what you find TO START WITH and KEEP LOOKING for something that meets your needs better......and attend night classes (free if you're on a low income anyway!) to improve your standard of living.

There is no smoke risk factor involved in stacking shelves in a supermarket - a job open to virtually anyone!

If you want something enough, you'll find a way to achieve it.

[Wendy]

Very good points.... and I know in France they used to have pictures of unemployed people on the labels of wine bottles and some people did get jobs out of it..

Back to smoking.... smokers are addicts.. and none of that would have affected me when I was a smoker... it's too late to have it on the packet.. the message needs to get across BEFORE they start smoking....I'm sure the fashion industry doesn't help... skinny models usually smoke to stay that way... and I put on 2 stones when I stopped smoking and got really miserable cos I was out of work as well and my general confidence sunk almost below the water line ... and although it was the best decision I've ever made health-wise, I was pretty damn miserable... in fact I was probably a happier bunny when I was a smoker.....

Advertising does work... and so does peer pressure... One of the reasons that kept me off the fags was being made to feel like a leper and of course, the inconvenience of having to stand outside - especially in Scotland !!!!

I'm going to sound like the Blair brigade when I say it's the causes of smoking that need to be addressed..

If only CEROC had been around when I was in my late teens....jeez I'd be a good as Nicky Haslem by now :rofl:

Wxxx

[Aleks]

Originally posted by Dance Demon
In france, politicians are asking themselvesif they should print on a pack of cigarettes, a picture of a smoker dying of cancer, as well as the slogan"smoking kills"

Warnings on cigarette packets has been in force in Italy for only THREE MONTHS......and my step-mum (nasty smoker that she is) actually bought a hoard of cartons of the old un-printed packets as she finds the printing "disturbing"......not sure whether it'll encourage her to stop smoking, but will let you know!

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Aleks
Rubbish (IMHO)!
You take what you find TO START WITH and KEEP LOOKING for something that meets your needs better......and attend night classes (free if you're on a low income anyway!) to improve your standard of living.

There is no smoke risk factor involved in stacking shelves in a supermarket - a job open to virtually anyone!

If you want something enough, you'll find a way to achieve it.

I wish this were true. I used to think it was. I was completely intolerant of poeple who wouldn't work hard to better themselves.

That was before I bacame a Councillor. I've now seen the 'poverty trap' and it's real. And then there's real ignorance, illiteracy, depression, homelessness, poor health. poor education, hopeless parenting and many more factors which take away people's freedom of choice.

I've had a dose of reality and I don't like it much. That's why I do my work as a Councillor and try to help change the pattern. And the hardest bit of all is that often they say they don't need helping:tears:

And they nearly all smoke even though they really, really don't have the money:tears: :tears:

[Boomer]

I do not think this would have much of a long-term impact, and I’m not that confident of the short-term effects come to think of it. Pics of dying people and decaying teeth ect effect people on an emotional level, and emotions soon fade. The initial shock and horror caused by said pics would soon disappear, and the pics soon fade into the background in our perceptions. I don’t even notice the warnings on a pack of baccy, and I know for a fact I’m not alone in this. IMHO the warnings were placed on the packaging to secure ‘Big Business’ from prosecution, not a desire to prevent people from smoking.

I also felt that you were searching for an ‘immediate effect’ in stopping/deterring people from smoking – ‘immediate’ does of course have an element of relativity to it. In lowering the number of future smokers, education and debate would serve the issue far better than any emotional ‘kick in the gut’. The adverts, on tv and elsewhere, have had little or no effect on influencing me to stop...my god! Today is my last day. Researching the subject, looking at the facts and talking to people, smokers and non-smokers...and taking part in this forum have been instrumental in helping me come to my decision. The main problem in trying to prevent people from smoking is the lack of political-will. This is understandable - no government, with the swish of a pen, is prepared to create x-million/s cold-turkey law-breakers by banning tobacco (for example). Decreasing the number of smokers is a long-term process that requires the ‘culture of smoking’ to be altered – banning of ads, removing the ‘kudos’ that goes with one’s first ciggy at 15y/o, educating, not ‘emotioning’ (sorry) people on the effects, physical and social, of smoking, as much debate and as many forums as possible for opinions to be aired.

The good news is that at uni I’m seeing fewer and fewer smokers coming into my environment. Of course my experience may not reflect the ‘reality’ of the situation, but it is encouraging.

[Aleks]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
I wish this were true. I used to think it was. I was completely intolerant of poeple who wouldn't work hard to better themselves.

That was before I bacame a Councillor. I've now seen the 'poverty trap' and it's real. And then there's real ignorance, illiteracy, depression, homelessness, poor health. poor education, hopeless parenting and many more factors which take away people's freedom of choice.

I've had a dose of reality and I don't like it much. That's why I do my work as a Councillor and try to help change the pattern. And the hardest bit of all is that often they say they don't need helping:tears:

And they nearly all smoke even though they really, really don't have the money:tears: :tears:

I agree a person needs to be aware of choice (or lack thereof) for this to be relevant to them.

I applaud your efforts in bringing awareness to these people (from your post I have understood/assumed they don't even know they have these choices).

Once you've done this, is it not then their choice to be self-responsible and choose to live their lives differently (with a support network to show the options available and help them through it)?

However, whatever support we offer, some people will choose something different for themselves than we would choose for them.

[Pammy]

Originally posted by Aleks
However, whatever support we offer some people will choose something different for themselves than we would choose for them.

This is a very good point.

Px

[Wendy]

Originally posted by Aleks
Rubbish (IMHO)!You take what you find TO START WITH and KEEP LOOKING for something that meets your needs better......and attend night classes (free if you're on a low income anyway!) to improve your standard of living....If you want something enough, you'll find a way to achieve it. I suppose your attitude is based on personal experience.. good for you...... and I have little patience for smokers who say they want to give up and don't cos I have done that !!!...

Now let me tell you the story of the girl who was earning 18K but was getting held back in her company cos she lacked qualifications....so she left that job and went back to College.. then couldn't get a decent job in the new profession cos she wasn't experienced enough and couldn't get a menial job in that profession cos she was too qualified and her last salary column made it look like she'd be expecting a similar salary to her last job...then she had gaps in her CV which made it look like she was a lazy waster, odd or a criminal.... so she took a crap admin job with a salary of 10k and then her details of last employmnet made it look like she was capable of nothing more than the 10k jobs..... and she persevered for years before she just wanted to shred her qualification ....bla bla bla.... so yes that has been my experience of the world of work since going back to College to improve my lot !!!!

My point is.. it's not that easy to skip around the world of work..... and if your confidence suffers then the rejection gets harder and harder..... and if you are living in crap conditions, with a child or two or without a supportive partner (financial or emotional) etc etc then I can see how easy it would be to fall into the poverty trap....

And wouldn't it be funny if DD's future employer had been a smoker and if he'd put "smoky environment" as his reason for leaving his last job !!!!!

And that's why I found the comment about "just get another job" to be particulary offensive and naive... and why it hits a nerve when I see the Russian Roulette players getting jobs when I have been turned down for not knowing a computer package I could probably pick up in a couple of hours !!!!

Wxxx

[Aleks]

Was lazy......went to college straight from school...bummed about and pretended to work.....dropped out......worked as a waitress and barmaid for a while......moved abroad for a year pretending it'd be a "new start" but of course my "stuff" moved with me.....managed to sort my head enough to go back to college and did A levels in a year then a post-grad in Admin......was also told I was over-qualified/lacked experience so took crap admin/sec jobs.......still in crap sec job!!!

Meanwhile, 3 years ago found a private course which really fired me up. Arranged to get a Career Development Loan to pay for it (£7,500).

Am now in the last few months and in the middle of taking exams, still working as a sec and racking brain working out how the hell I'm going to pay off the loan in May next year. I tell myself every day that there's a way to balance it all and to take one step at a time.

I had thought that by this stage I would have left my sec job, with plenty of income from the new "career". It's not happening that way and I might even have to work as a sec for another year or two (AARRRGH!!). Even if it's longer, I will never give up the "fight". I'm incredibly lucky to receive support from friends and family - my boss, however, just laughs at me!

Everyone has their story......and we all find our own road a challenge at some point, regardless of what other's see/think of our position.

Just realised this should have been in the "introduce yourself" thread......:grin:

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Boomer
The adverts, on tv and elsewhere, have had little or no effect on influencing me to stop...my god! Today is my last day. Researching the subject, looking at the facts and talking to people, smokers and non-smokers...and taking part in this forum have been instrumental in helping me come to my decision.

All hail Boomer:cheers:

Can Pammy and I claim to have saved your life? Do we now have to take responsibility for you like they did in many ancient civilizations when they saved someone?

[Wendy]

Well done Boomer !!! And every time you feel like a ciggie just dance with someone !!!!!! Careful though... that can be addictive too !!!

Wxxxxxxxxx

[Boomer]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor

Can Pammy and I claim to have saved your life?

Of course, as can all the others who have been involved in this type of debate/conversation. :hug:


Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Do we now have to take responsibility for you like they did in many ancient civilizations when they saved someone?

Ohhh Yesssss:devil: . There.will.be.plenty.of.responsiblity.to.go.around :devil: . I’m gonna be such a grumpy-b****cks for the next few days:blush: .

My sincerst apologies in advance – normal service shall be resumed, hopefully, by weds – my first class after stopping.
:tears: :what:

[Andy McGregor]

Both Aleks and Wendy have dream jobs. And they're both working on their dream to make it a reality. What if someone offered them their dream job but said they had to work with a smoker? Would they turn it down after years of study, heartache, etc.

On a constructive note, many of the people at dancing are also employers in varied industries. If Aleks and Wendy were to post their dream job someone somewhere might have a the right vacancy and want to employ a fellow dancer:waycool:

[Aleks]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Both Aleks and Wendy have dream jobs. And they're both working on their dream to make it a reality. What if someone offered them their dream job but said they had to work with a smoker? Would they turn it down after years of study, heartache, etc.

On a constructive note, many of the people at dancing are also employers in varied industries. If Aleks and Wendy were to post their dream job someone somewhere might have a the right vacancy and want to employ a fellow dancer:waycool:

I'm unlikely to be offered a job in my chosen field, never mind by a smoker/non-smoker - Kinesiology is a holistic therapy based on Chinese meridian principles (energy balancing) so self-employment is the way I'm going. My dream is to "create" enough clients to be able to support myself without the need to earn cash another way - it's happening, just not fast enough! (If anyone's interested in a free first session, PM me, I'm based in Edinburgh!)

Good idea though - anyone else out there looking for a new job?

[Wendy]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Both Aleks and Wendy have dream jobs. And they're both working on their dream to make it a reality. What if someone offered them their dream job but said they had to work with a smoker? Would they turn it down after years of study, heartache, etc. I don't have a dream job....unless you count pole dancing - but G says I'm too old and need to get real !!! and they have to dance in smoky clubs anyway...groan....... but maybe I could be employed by a smoker who could pay me lots to spend time with them to stop them smoking ???? Then I wouldn't turn down that offer !!!! I could even teach them how to dance... or even kiss them every time they wanted a cigarette... Is that a job ?????!!!!!!!... but then I wouldn't want to kiss a smoker.....

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
On a constructive note, many of the people at dancing are also employers in varied industries. If Aleks and Wendy were to post their dream job someone somewhere might have a the right vacancy and want to employ a fellow dancer:waycool: . Sounds like a new thread to me.....

Wxxx

[Aleks]

Originally posted by Wendy
I don't have a dream job....unless you count pole dancing - but G says I'm too old and need to get real !!! and they have to dance in smoky clubs anyway...groan....... but maybe I could be employed by a smoker who could pay me lots to spend time with them to stop them smoking ???? Then I wouldn't turn down that offer !!!! I could even teach them how to dance... or even kiss them every time they wanted a cigarette... Is that a job ?????!!!!!!!... but then I wouldn't want to kiss a smoker.....
Sounds like a new thread to me.....

Wxxx

Pole dancing's something I've always fancied doing too.....

Maybe you and I should consider opening a non-smoking pole dancing club???

[Wendy]

Originally posted by Aleks
Pole dancing's something I've always fancied doing too.....
Maybe you and I should consider opening a non-smoking pole dancing club??? but what about azande???!!!! ....he'd have to go outside !!!! :rofl: ... it's a possibility though ... do you think there would be a market for that kind of thing !!!!!!:D

Wxxx

[Aleks]

Originally posted by Wendy
but what about azande???!!!! ....he'd have to go outside !!!! :rofl: ... it's a possibility though ... do you think there would be a market for that kind of thing !!!!!!:D

Wxxx

Time for a poll/pole??:rofl:

Azande'll be OK - he'll stand outside and be the "heavy":rofl: :rofl: :rofl: (anyone who's met azande knows what I mean).......he'd much rather be the pole, I think!

[Wendy]

We haven't gone off-topic have we ??? :innocent:

Wxxx

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Wendy
We haven't gone off-topic have we ??? :innocent:

Wxxx

Dancing girls talking about pole dancing is much more interesting.

Whilst on a sailing trip I was recently dragged by one of the crew who works in advertising to a lap/pole dancing bar for the first time ever:innocent: Just about every girl I spoke to was a medical student 'just doing it to pay her way through medical school'. If they were telling the truth, in a few years time there are going to be some very fit and very attractive doctors:waycool:

And, before you ask, there was enormous peer group pressure for me to accept a lap dance. But being a Cerocer I felt the usual thing was to maintain eye contact so I missed most of the show:wink: And when she'd done her 2 mins (for £10!!!) I asked her to sit down while I lap danced for her:wink: One of the other girls spoke with me later, said she liked my moves and invited me to practice with them on Tuesday nights - I said I usually go to Hipsters in a Tuesday - this is a lie, I go to Hipsters on Wednesdays:wink: Which makes me wonder, do you think they might have been lying about being medical students?:innocent:

[Jive Brummie]

Time for a poll/pole??:rofl:

Azande'll be OK - he'll stand outside and be the "heavy":rofl: :rofl: :rofl: (anyone who's met azande knows what I mean).......he'd much rather be the pole, I think!

Pole?? I thought he was Italian................ :whistle: :rofl:

[Gordon J Pownall]

Smoking is an addiction, smokers are addicted. I of course include myself in this. Comparing a cigarette to a drink and a smoker to a drinker only works if one is (correctly) comparing smoking to alcoholism. Ok, we don’t ‘duff’ people up, or become dangerous drivers after 10 tubes of heavy (B&H) but we are addicted to a substance.

OK - time for my pennyworth.

As a Consultant Psychotherapist of 4 years and a therapist of some 10 years, you are not addicted.


SMOKING IS NOT AN ADDICTIVE ACTIVITY

Did everyone get that...???


SMOKING IS NOT AN ADDICTIVE ACTIVITY

If it was, people would not be able to become non-smokers instantly and never touch a ciggy again...

Heroine is addictive, cocaine is addictive - smoking is not..!!!

Smoking is a habit, triggered by thought process either conscious or sub-conscious. It is not triggered by somatic activity.

Just needed to clear that one up...if anyone wishes to know how the mind convinces you that you want / need / must have a ciggy, read Dr Georges Phillips PhD Book, Gold Psychotherapeutic Counselling, available from Crown House Publishing.....

It is all in the mind.....

[Gadget]

The scottish executive currently have a big thing going on about SMOKING IN PUBLIC PLACES: A CONSULTATION (http://www.scotland.gov.uk/consultations/health/sippc-00.asp)

[under par]

OK - time for my pennyworth.

As a Consultant Psychotherapist of 4 years and a therapist of some 10 years, you are not addicted.


SMOKING IS NOT AN ADDICTIVE ACTIVITY

Did everyone get that...???


SMOKING IS NOT AN ADDICTIVE ACTIVITY

If it was, people would not be able to become non-smokers instantly and never touch a ciggy again...

Heroine is addictive, cocaine is addictive - smoking is not..!!!

Smoking is a habit, triggered by thought process either conscious or sub-conscious. It is not triggered by somatic activity.

Just needed to clear that one up...if anyone wishes to know how the mind convinces you that you want / need / must have a ciggy, read Dr Georges Phillips PhD Book, Gold Psychotherapeutic Counselling, available from Crown House Publishing.....

It is all in the mind.....

IT IS ALL IN THE MIND

I have no professional qualifications at all except being a 40 a day smoker for 12 years.

I believed for years I was addicted.

Although I gave up smoking hundreds of times (cos I really didn't think it was good for me ) I kept falling back into the habit at the earliest opportunity.

Using age old excuses like "I cannot go to the pub and not smoke", "I need it to calm me down" or the counter argument "I am bored and need a ciggy" or " I like it after a meal"

My sister bought me a book for my birthday 11 years ago Allan Carr's "Easy way to give up smoking".

It encouraged not to actually stop smoking until you are finished reading the book.

The book consisted of a story of tobacco usage by smokers and its associated advertising and promotion during the 20th century.

It explained the illogical reasoning behind smokers desire to smoke based on the premise that every smoker hated their first ciggarette and felt ill trying it.

In any other circumstance most people would stop right there if something made them feel sick and giddy.

But because of the percieved images of film stars (ever see a old black and white film where there isn't a ciggarette lit in every scene)and celebrities and peers smoking, there is pressure to conform to the stereotype and continue smoking.

Contrary to all the public health information and the extraordinary cost of smoking, smokers continue believing they are addicted.

I read the book in five days and by the time I was reading the the finishing chapters I found it extremely difficult raising a lit ciggarette to my mouth.

The book tried a form of repeated counter propoganda re emphasising all the negatives without scare tactics.

When I had finished and I KNEW that I would never smoke again.

11 years on still not smoking and better still never had a craving since the day I put the book down.

50% of friends who have read the book have also given up.

[Franck]

Wondering if percentages have shifted in the last 10 years...