Leading a triple step

[FirstMove]

We haven't had a good footwork rant thread for ages...

So how should I lead a triple step?

I'm not interested in: doing a few triples and waiting for my partner to catch on, choreographed intros, verbal leads, rolling my shoulders, mind control, telekinesis or any other silliness. Saying I need more connection without useful elaboration isn't going to help either.

Suppose my partner is blindfolded and has headphones on (so she can hear the music, but not my dulcet tones). I dance a few simple moves, then with impeccable musicality, twist out for a First Move and start tripling ... how do I lead my partner to do the same?

:confused::confused::confused:

[David Bailey]

God knows. You've eliminated most of the answers already :)

My only answer is "if it fits the music" - but I've no idea how to communicate that, in an MJ context, short of mirroring and hoping.

In AT, you can lead double-time, but that's actually led, it's (theoretically) to the music - and it's not really the same thing...

In cha-cha, that's simply the default step to the music.

How do you lead triple-steps in WCS? Or don't you?

[Keith J]

If it is from a typical MJ first move hold, initially your right hand (RH) needs to be a lot higher and wedged in the arm pit (aka the Brad).
There is little work here for the Leads left hand except to build tension.
Create the connection by taking your weight left and lead this through your framed arm not the hand and into the follows Brad. ie.e move your whole body.
If Leads, frame is weak (noodle arms) she will not get any connection.
To change your weight step left across under your body with your left foot.
Step in under your body to closed position with your right foot, step with the left to effect the triple (ensuring you change weight and do not wing it with knee pops).
The Follow will have been carried across by sensing the sideways lead, so Follow will step across and mimic the weight changes only providing Lead weight changes as well.

Through this as a basic, the torso is relatively quiet and the work is all below the knees in the feet and ankles.
This triple is based on a 6 count which follows inherently know from their basic footwork descriptions. So we have 5&6(finish triple) AND 1.
Once settled (anchored) on 6, on the 'AND', before the you can, optionally send the follow backwards, by releasing a small amount of the lead frame. Remember you are still in close contact with Brad.
to bring her foward on one. the reason for this is there is less inertia as the body is already moving.
Equally it gives an opportunity to the follow to synchopate footwork as required if they need to aquire weight on the left to start on the right foot.
Any use?

[straycat]

How do you lead triple-steps in WCS? Or don't you?

Assuming we're not talking about a set move (Keith's addressed that quite nicely)...

I can't speak for WCS, but in Lindy, you definitely don't. In fact... so long as you have the pulse right and a decent connection, the leader can quite happily be using triples while the follower (for example) single-times it (or vice-versa), and it makes no difference at all.

[David Bailey]

{ snip stuff }Any use?
Excellent answer - I've no idea if it works or not, but I can certainly try it out.

Thanks for that - rep on it's way...

[FirstMove]

Keith J - I'm still pondering your answer, but in the mean time....



In cha-cha, that's simply the default step to the music.


I'm only a cha-cha novice, but I have problems leading 'alemanas' and 'three cha chas forward' - i.e. those steps where you triple the 2&3 rather than the 4&1. Presumably yet another deficiency in my leading :eek:

[MartinHarper]

I can normally physically lead triple steps in Modern Jive. I learnt to do this partly via Lindy Hop, and partly via the few lessons I've had in actual Blues. It requires three things from my follower:
A) A follower who is not strongly attached to the RLRL Modern Jive marching footwork.
B) A follower who has good connection and following skills.
C) A follower who knows how to triple step.

The key is this: First I lead the follower to place all her weight onto her left foot. Then I lead her to move directly left without rotating. This can be done physically or visually or emotionally or spiritually, but I recommend physically.

She has three possible ways to obey my lead:
1. Fall over. Common sense eliminates this option.
2. Cross her right foot in front or behind of her left foot. That keeps her upright, but it requires her to rotate her hips. Since I've not led any rotation, this isn't an option.
3. Shuffle step aka ball-change aka gallop RL. This is the correct option.

By first leading my partner onto her left foot, and then leading her to shuffle step RL, I have led a triple step. To do another triple step, I repeat the operation on the other side.

There are many subtelties, but that's the basic idea. I can elaborate on the extra bits if anyone likes?

[Jamie]

I can normally physically lead triple steps in Modern Jive.

:yeah:

Have to say MH is wicked at leading triple steps..

[geoff332]

All of these type of moves are best led from the body (triples, manhattens, columbians etc: anything in a ballroom hold). And body leads are most effective when both the lead and follow hold a good frame. If either dancer doesn't hold their frame, then the follow can do a bunch things in response to the lead - turning, hip-twists or the like.

Assuming the frame is strong, the lead is pretty straight-forward: in the first move, establish the right hand side of the frame; then lead out so you're both facing and get your left-shoulder in position (the left hand is really just decoration); as you do this, your weight will shift to your left foot and the follow should ... follow. Then lead straight across with the right side, closing your right foot in and holding the left side in place. Make sure you don't lead any sort of hip rotation with your right hand. Keep the right hand lead going as you take your weight onto your right and step across on your left.

[NZ Monkey]

It requires three things from my follower:
A) A follower who is not strongly attached to the RLRL Modern Jive marching footwork.
B) A follower who has good connection and following skills.
C) A follower who knows how to triple step.
:rofl: but :yeah:

[Lory]

Wow, complicated stuff, or what! :really::rolleyes:

Well.. I find if a guy sways/leans my body, in an exaggerated way, to the right, 9 times out of 10, were straight into triple steps...

simple! :wink:

[NZ Monkey]

Wow, complicated stuff, or what! :really::rolleyes:

Well.. I find if a guy sways/leans my body, in an exaggerated way, to the right, 9 times out of 10, were straight into triple steps...

simple! :wink:At the risk of stiring up a hornets nest..... you have had an unusually good grounding in the mystical arts of the triple step when compared to the majority of MJ'ers. I blame that eveil WCS thing everyone seems so worked up about. How dare you pollute the clear waters of MJ with that filth! :devil:

:na:

[Ghost]

At the risk of stiring up a hornets nest..... you have had an unusually good grounding in the mystical arts of the triple step when compared to the majority of MJ'ers. I blame that eveil WCS thing everyone seems so worked up about. How dare you pollute the clear waters of MJ with that filth! :devil:

:na:

Conversely I was dancing with a lady the other day who did "something like Ceroc" and whenever I led a first move she went into triple steps.

[MartinHarper]

Conversely I was dancing with a lady the other day who did "something like Ceroc" and whenever I led a first move she went into triple steps.

I often find triple steps in a first move exit (and a few other moves) more natural than marching footwork, since that way I don't have to cross my feet on beat 8 of the first move.

[Andy McGregor]

I can normally physically lead triple steps in Modern Jive. I learnt to do this partly via Lindy Hop, and partly via the few lessons I've had in actual Blues. It requires three things from my follower:
A) A follower who is not strongly attached to the RLRL Modern Jive marching footwork.
B) A follower who has good connection and following skills.
C) A follower who knows how to triple step.MH is mostly right. The only bit where he's a little bit wrong is that most followers should not be "strongly attached" to RLRL footwork in the closed hold. The footwork in the closed hold is completely leadable. It doesn't have to be RLRL any more, it can be whatever is led.

In the triple step you need to maintain a proper frame and tip it in the direction you are going. The move is pretty much an isolation from the waist up, apart from your heads which look in the direction you are going. The triple-step usually starts like a first move. It's the same up to the turn out on beat five. On the turn out you need to assume a much higher right hand position to be able to lead properly in the closed hold: place your right hand on, or near to the lady's left shoulder blade. When leading the lady forward from the turn out you also step forward and to the left, as you do so you tip the frame downwards and to the left, as if you're taking your left hand towards your knee and raising your right elbow (think “pour me out” from “I’m a little tea-pot”: your left hand is is the "spout"). This leads the follower to step with her right foot and transfer her weight to that foot. Then you lead the lady to your left to bring her left foot to her right as you take your right foot to your left. After that you raise your left hand a bit to let the lady place her weight on her left and step with her right as you continue to lead her to your left and step on to your left foot. This is a single triple. The next thing you do is pivot backwards on your left foot to triple to your right in the same direction. This pivot easily led if your right hand is on the lady’s shoulder blade. Once you've pivoted you repeat the whole thing going backwards rather than forwards - you need to raise your left hand as you drop your right elbow to tip the frame to the right and repeat the whole thing in the opposite direction. After the triple to the left, pivot and triple to the right, most people turn the lady out as if it's beat five of the first move and triple back to where they started.

The other tip is to really exaggerate the look in the direction you're travelling. When you're going to the left you look over your left shoulder, when you're going to the right you look over your right shoulder. It means you can look where you’re going and it also looks good.

[Terpsichorea]

Wow, complicated stuff, or what! :really::rolleyes:

Well.. I find if a guy sways/leans my body, in an exaggerated way, to the right, 9 times out of 10, were straight into triple steps...

simple! :wink:

It's fairly easy to lead a triple step if you do it in the same way that you lead tipples in Quickstep - as a man, incline your torso (not your arms) slightly to your left before going into the steps, and due to the shift in centre of gravity, the woman will invariably come with you.

[spindr]

In the triple step you need to maintain a proper frame and tip it in the direction you are going. The move is pretty much an isolation from the waist up, apart from your heads which look in the direction you are going. The triple-step usually starts like a first move. It's the same up to the turn out on beat five. On the turn out you need to assume a much higher right hand position to be able to lead properly in the closed hold: place your right hand on, or near to the lady's left shoulder blade. When leading the lady forward from the turn out you also step forward and to the left, as you do so you tip the frame downwards and to the left, as if you're taking your left hand towards your knee and raising your right elbow (think “pour me out” from “I’m a little tea-pot”: your left hand is is the "spout"). This leads the follower to step with her right foot and transfer her weight to that foot. Then you lead the lady to your left to bring her left foot to her right as you take your right foot to your left. After that you raise your left hand a bit to let the lady place her weight on her left and step with her right as you continue to lead her to your left and step on to your left foot. This is a single triple.
Ah, never before heard of "pumping water" (http://www.afterfive.co.uk/guide/latest/html/dance_frame.html#a_robust_closed_dance_frame) being advocated as good dance technique :devil:

Len Goodman must be spinning in his gravy :)

SpinDr

[Andy McGregor]

Ah, never before heard of "pumping water" (http://www.afterfive.co.uk/guide/latest/html/dance_frame.html#a_robust_closed_dance_frame) being advocated as good dance technique :devil:And you won't hear it recommended by me either. The pumping water thing is completely wrong as it means you are leading the hand up and down - another version of the bounce? What I'm saying is that you tip the whole frame to the left for the first triple to the left and to the right for the second triple to the right. You are moving the whole frame which causes the left hand to lower or raise, this is a very different thing from "pumping water".

On the subject of Len, I'm not sure what he'd think if he visited a standard Ceroc night :devil:

[MartinHarper]

Body leading is definitely good for leading triples. Sure, they can be done with arm leads, but 99% of the time, why make life complicated?

As we move, we tend to tip slightly in the direction we're about to move. That's completely natural - walking is a good example. Triple steps are no different to any other move in this respect. For me, a small tip is a consequence of my intention to move, so I don't think about doing it. Instead, I think about my intended movement, and let my body prepare appropriately.

Fun triple step exercises:
1. Lead the difference between a swung triple-step (as in Lindy) and a straight triple-step (as in Cha-cha-cha)
2. Lead the differences between a stationary triple-step and ones that rotate in either direction.
3. Lead the difference between a triple-step completely on the spot and one that covers a lot of ground.
4. Lead a triple-step whilst tilting your bodies in the opposite direction, or with an exaggerated tilt in the natural direction.
5. Lead a triple-step with a pause between the first and second steps.
6. Lead a quintuple-step. Or more.

[David Bailey]

Body leading is definitely good for leading triples. Sure, they can be done with arm leads, but 99% of the time, why make life complicated?

As we move, we tend to tip slightly in the direction we're about to move. That's completely natural - walking is a good example. Triple steps are no different to any other move in this respect.
Hmmm, I think I misinterpreted the original question.

Of course, I can lead a triple step within a close hold, or as part of a defined move, like the first move gallop or whatever it's called.

But I can't (easily) lead a triple step "just like that" to meet the music - that is, in isolation, or without a close hold. For example, I can't (easily) lead a triple-step variant of the Manhattan.

[Auntie Temptme]

Ummmmm

Whoosh - Straight over my head!:confused::confused:

I can't even imagine what is meant to be going on by reading the posts :what:

[MartinHarper]

I can't (easily) lead a triple-step variant of the Manhattan.

Looking at the Manhattan from here:
About Jango, Instructors, Jango Card (http://www.jango.co.uk/aboutjango.htm)

Triple-step variant of the manhattan... you mean something like this in closed (written from follower's perspective)?
1-2: triple backwards RLR
3-4: triple forwards LRL
5-6: triple forwards RLR
7-8: triple backwards LRL

I've led that a few times. Try the following:

1. I place my follower's weight on her right foot, with right foot behind her left. For example, her right foot may be at 11 o'clock, whilst her left foot is at 6 o'clock.
&. I lead my follower backwards and to her right. The slight right lead makes her cross her left foot in front of her right, thus preventing her from just stepping back left.
2. I lead my follower backwards. Since her left foot is locked in front of her right, she has to move her right foot backwards and place her weight on it.
3-8. Similarly.

That's a more severe/forcing approach than I'd use in practice, mind.

[Caro]

In the triple step you need to maintain a proper frame and tip it in the direction you are going.
(...)
When leading the lady forward from the turn out you also step forward and to the left, as you do so you tip the frame downwards and to the left,...


This is may be how you and some other MJ teachers teach the triple step footwork in a first move, but the tip part of it has nothing to do with actual lead and follow of triple steps. :what:
Because it is taught that way, and done that way by most MJ lead, most MJ follow will recognise it and go into triple steps. Pavlov's dogs.
Try and tip Tatiana Mollman (just an example of a 1st class follow but not MJ taught and who knows how to triple step) in the middle of a first move, I'd be surprised if she triples as a result :what:

As both Keith and Martin Harper have explained, leading a triple in a close hold requires a decent frame, knowing where the follow's weight is (which foot) and then tripling yourself and in doing so shifting your own body enough so that the follow has no choice but to triple step, or fall over.
In my experience, the most common thing to go wrong when guys end up tripling on their own, is that they do not move their body enough (hence the follow can follow with just one step) most often combined with a weak frame that doesn't transmit the weight changes. It feels like the guy is isolating his upper body from his feet, and no follow can follow that (unless she's watching the guy's feet (which she wouldn't in a close hold) and quick to respond).

[straycat]

As we move, we tend to tip slightly in the direction we're about to move. That's completely natural - walking is a good example. Triple steps are no different to any other move in this respect. For me, a small tip is a consequence of my intention to move, so I don't think about doing it. Instead, I think about my intended movement, and let my body prepare appropriately.

Not sure about this. As a simple lead for a 'first move gallop' type of move, this certainly works, but in general, I like to keep my shoulders level, and signal movement in other ways. A standard thing for me when leading movement in one direction is to create a tiny lead in the opposite direction as a prep, then use the tension that creates start the lead in the correct direction.


1. Lead the difference between a swung triple-step (as in Lindy) and a straight triple-step (as in Cha-cha-cha)

I would still maintain that if you're doing Lindy (swung) triples properly, they are not leadable - in fact, you will be doing them in such a way that the follower is free to choose her own footwork. By ensuring that your partner's weight is on the correct foot, and by travelling, you can create a situation where one option might be to use triples, but it's up to her if she does them or not.

how you lead straight triples though - I admit I have no idea :P To me, it's just a matter of the music - I just hears it and does them.

[FirstMove]

Hmmm, I think I misinterpreted the original question.


Nope, you interpreted my original question right before. I don't find triple steps particularly hard to keep going once your partner has started doing them. Getting them going is the tricky bit.

If I just face my partner in close hold I can triple in place, but it hardly matters if my partner does something else instead as we're not travelling anywhere. If I pull them in from a turn-out in a FM and start tripling off across the floor straight away, not tripling is likely to get her left behind or with her weight on the wrong foot.

Leading a triple step in a Manhattan .... :worthy:

[David Bailey]

Triple-step variant of the manhattan... you mean something like this in closed (written from follower's perspective)?
1-2: triple backwards RLR
3-4: triple forwards LRL
5-6: triple forwards RLR
7-8: triple backwards LRL.
Not really, but hmmm, it's worth a try.

All I meant to say was that I can't easily lead a triple-step back (a la cha-cha), especially from open hold - but it might be nice to do so on occasion, when the music calls for it.

It's practice, basically - I'll need to work on it. Some good suggestions here tho.


Leading a triple step in a Manhattan .... :worthy:
Huh, well it would be, if I could actually do it. :sad:

[David Bailey]

This is may be how you and some other MJ teachers teach the triple step footwork in a first move, but the tip part of it has nothing to do with actual lead and follow of triple steps. :what:
Because it is taught that way, and done that way by most MJ lead, most MJ follow will recognise it and go into triple steps. Pavlov's dogs.
From what I recall of the lead into this gallop-y thing, yes - it's taught as a step lead rather than a weight-change lead. Possibly another area where the signal is not a lead.

[Andy McGregor]

This is may be how you and some other MJ teachers teach the triple step footwork in a first move, but the tip part of it has nothing to do with actual lead and follow of triple steps. :what:
Because it is taught that way, and done that way by most MJ lead, most MJ follow will recognise it and go into triple steps. Pavlov's dogs.
Try and tip Tatiana Mollman (just an example of a 1st class follow but not MJ taught and who knows how to triple step) in the middle of a first move, I'd be surprised if she triples as a result :what:
This combative post shows a lack of understanding of how the frame is used to lead footwork in MJ. And using Tatiana or any other person who has not learnt MJ as an example of somebody who couldn't follow MJ is spurious.

As both Keith and Martin Harper have explained, leading a triple in a close hold requires a decent frame, knowing where the follow's weight is (which foot) and then tripling yourself and in doing so shifting your own body enough so that the follow has no choice but to triple step, or fall over.I think I'm saying the same as Keith and Martin about the importance of maintaining a decent frame. But Caro has written her post as if I disagreed with the requirement for a decent frame. I know she's just trying to get my attention :wink:

[MartinHarper]

In general, I like to keep my shoulders level, and signal movement in other ways.

Fair enough. The natural amount of tilt is maybe a centimeter or two at shoulder level, which I think looks ok. For me, it makes the move easy to lead.


I would still maintain that if you're doing Lindy (swung) triples properly, they are not leadable - in fact, you will be doing them in such a way that the follower is free to choose her own footwork.

I think that's a fine approach (and what I do most of the time), but I don't feel that it's improper to lead footwork on occasion. Though the follower is always free to ignore me and do something cooler.


how you lead straight triples though - I admit I have no idea.

Inconsistently.


Try and tip Tatiana Mollman (just an example of a 1st class follow but not MJ taught and who knows how to triple step) in the middle of a first move, I'd be surprised if she triples as a result.

West Coast triples are led differently, so I wouldn't try to apply that technique to Modern Jive. Then again, I wouldn't lead a first move on Tatiana.

[Caro]

This combative post shows a lack of understanding of how the frame is used to lead footwork in MJ. And using Tatiana or any other person who has not learnt MJ as an example of somebody who couldn't follow MJ is spurious.
I think I'm saying the same as Keith and Martin about the importance of maintaining a decent frame. But Caro has written her post as if I disagreed with the requirement for a decent frame. I know she's just trying to get my attention :wink:

And this reply shows either your lack of understanding of the English language, or your propensity to half read posts and reply in your usual stubborn and narrow minded style, and that despite the fact that I used selective quoting and used bold font to help you understand what parts of your post I disagreed with. In French we have an expression that says 'jam for the pigs' which would be very relevant here.

I said I disagreed with one part of your explanation on how to lead triple steps in a first move - the tipping action (see the first sentence of the third paragraph for my take on frame). May be I'm simply not that acquainted with lead and follow, so you could explain in what way the tipping movement leads the follower into triple stepping.

[robd]

Think I'd be tempted to ask why you would want to lead a triple step (other than possibly to ensure the follow was on a certain foot for the next move) - personally I am quite happy to entrust responsibility for the follow's footwork to the follow.

I don't think starter step triples (to use a WCS example) are lead in the sense being discussed here - I think there is a convention that is recognised and leads to the triples. My starter steps are very often just weight shifts with knee pops and very often a follow will triple step in response. I have no problem with this (I said above I leave responsibility for a follows footwork with the follow) but it's not something they are doing in response to a specific intended lead from me.

[Caro]

I don't think starter step triples (to use a WCS example) are lead in the sense being discussed here - I think there is a convention that is recognised and leads to the triples. My starter steps are very often just weight shifts with knee pops and very often a follow will triple step in response. I have no problem with this (I said above I leave responsibility for a follows footwork with the follow) but it's not something they are doing in response to a specific intended lead from me.

As an aside from this thread and because it's an interesting discussion...
I too have sometimes trouble leading (in WCS) the follow to either tap step or triple step in the starter step, and switch. Equally I sometimes struggle to follow either a tap or a triple (don't tell anybody though, I have a reputation here). Yes tripling in a starter step may seem to be a convention (it's what most people do), yet during my last private, the teacher was expecting me feel the difference between a tap step and a triple, and follow accordingly.
So I can only guess that when I lead it and it doesn't work, I don't lead it well enough and / or the follow is not following well enough. And the other way around when I follow.

So in summary, yes I do think that triple steps in a WCS starter step are (or should be) lead, and not a convention.

[Andy McGregor]

And this reply shows either your lack of understanding of the English language, or your propensity to half read posts and reply in your usual stubborn and narrow minded style, and that despite the fact that I used selective quoting and used bold font to help you understand what parts of your post I disagreed with. In French we have an expression that says 'jam for the pigs' which would be very relevant here.

I said I disagreed with one part of your explanation on how to lead triple steps in a first move - the tipping action (see the first sentence of the third paragraph for my take on frame). May be I'm simply not that acquainted with lead and follow, so you could explain in what way the tipping movement leads the follower into triple stepping.Oh dear, oh dear! To say that I lack understanding of the English language and then use French expression in the same paragraph. Caro has obviously got her knickers in a twist - now I know she fancies me :innocent:

The tipping action in the lead for the first move is what dictates the footwork. In the closed hold the lady's footwork is led completely by the movement of the frame. The tipping leads the footwork and I've found it works for every follower who is not anticipating.

Of course Caro might be anticipating more than a triple step :devil:

[straycat]

The tipping action in the lead for the first move is what dictates the footwork. In the closed hold the lady's footwork is led completely by the movement of the frame. The tipping leads the footwork and I've found it works for every follower who is not anticipating.

I'm curious - especially as this is a move I used to do a fair amount, waaaay back when, and I used to lead it in this fashion. What is it about the tipping action that indicates 'triple step' to someone who's never done that particular move? I confess I've always regarded it as a beginners' kind of lead that you use until you learn to achieve a similar effect in more subtle ways. This weekend's just brought that home to me a little more (about ten hours spent trying to learn some of the subtlest leading techniques I've ever come across).

[David Bailey]

Think I'd be tempted to ask why you would want to lead a triple step
Not an unreasonable question.

In MJ, I guess the obvious answer is that there are triple-step moves, and if you want to properly lead a move, you should be able to lead each component of it, rather than rely on the follower recognising a signal. Otherwise, you won't be able to deconstruct it and use the bits you like?

[spindr]

I think Andy is leading some sort of galloping motion -- as if he were on his hobby horse :)

If you are *simply* tilted in the direction of travel, you will actually put more weight on to the leading foot and "de-weight" the trailing one -- actually making it more difficult to move in the direction of the tilt. This can be quite useful when making sure your partner doesn't inadvertently change weight in a closed hold -- lead a slight body tilt, but drop the trailing shoulder slightly so that the frame stays level.

To dance the "gallop" you will have to start off moving your weight on to the trailing foot -- possibly with a slight tilt in the opposite direction and then "fall into" the move -- possibly with a "u" or rounded "w" motion of your "centre". The "tilt" is then the initial lean in to the curve.

Probably most fun at a barn dance, or a polka :)
SpinDr

[robd]

Yes tripling in a starter step may seem to be a convention (it's what most people do), yet during my last private, the teacher was expecting me feel the difference between a tap step and a triple, and follow accordingly.

So in summary, yes I do think that triple steps in a WCS starter step are (or should be) lead, and not a convention.

Should be and are represent the intention and the reality. I agree that the starter step footwork could be lead (I still don't believe it always should be - follows responsible for their own footwork, etc - unless I am looking for a very specific outcome - perhaps more of a spring forward than usual, etc). I would also guess that I could, if I tried hard enough lead a triple (by actually moving myself to that side - a well connected follower would move with me and be forced to triple to keep her feet below her) as opposed to a weight shift (where there is still movement to that side just less of it, just sufficient to shift the weight). However the fact that I tend to always try and lead the latter but often experience the follower tripling regardless (and yes, I will freely admit my lead needs work) lead me to the thinking about convention.

[Andy McGregor]

I'm curious - especially as this is a move I used to do a fair amount, waaaay back when, and I used to lead it in this fashion. What is it about the tipping action that indicates 'triple step' to someone who's never done that particular move? I confess I've always regarded it as a beginners' kind of lead that you use until you learn to achieve a similar effect in more subtle ways. This weekend's just brought that home to me a little more (about ten hours spent trying to learn some of the subtlest leading techniques I've ever come across).When I was first taught the triple step at a Ceroc class I was told that the "signal" was to take your left hand towards your left knee. This exaggerates the tipping of the frame but has the same effect. However, it usually requires the beginner lady to have done the lesson and 'know' the move rather than follow the lead. This is a reasonable way to teach to a class who have not been told about the frame as it makes the move work. As you become a better dancer and are exposed to more subtle lead and follow techniques you will find, as Stray has, that you can lead and follow moves without those exaggerated signals. In the closed hold you can completely control the lady's footwork by the way you move the frame. It's like the lady is your puppet and the frame is there to indicate which string you're pulling. The difference is that the lady also has a mind and dance training so you only need a slight and subtle string pull to get the desired effect - sort of servo-assisted puppetry.

The way the triple step was demonstrated at that Coroc class also means that the top half is no longer an isolation. The teacher took his left hand almost all the way to his knee and didn't raise his right elbow or slightly incline his body. It worked, but I think it did so because the ladies were copying the demonstrator's footwork.

IMHO the hardest bit to get in the triple step is not the triple, it's the pivot in the middle where you turn through 180 degrees, continue to travel in the same direction, but change sides so the guy is travelling to the right. This requires a good frame so that you can lead the lady's footwork.

Finally, prompted by this thread, last Thursday I taught the triple step to an intermediate class of about 70 - I taught it in the way I described on this thread. Because most of my students understand the frame it took less than 10 minutes for everybody to get the move - and most of the people in the lesson probably got it in 5 minutes :waycool:

N.B. Please don't take the above as an indication that everybody at our classes is a great dancer. We've got a huge mix of dance ability from total novice to champion dancer. We also have people who haven't done a lesson for years are happy with what they do and dance for the fun of it. Some of those happy dancers know about 6.9 moves and do them in their own, unique, way. It must be great to have learnt all the dancing you feel you need to :clap:

[Andy McGregor]

I think Andy is leading some sort of galloping motionThat's pretty much what the triple step is. Although I do aim to make it smooth and skippy with very little rise and fall.


If you are *simply* tilted in the direction of travel, you will actually put more weight on to the leading foot and "de-weight" the trailing one -- actually making it more difficult to move in the direction of the tilt. This can be quite useful when making sure your partner doesn't inadvertently change weight in a closed hold -- lead a slight body tilt, but drop the trailing shoulder slightly so that the frame stays level.Right again. If you place the lady's weight on her right foot by lowering the frame slightly to the left and then moving the frame to the left you will take the lady's left foot towards her right. This is what is required as part of the triple step. Once the lady's right foot is in the correct place you can let her weight tranfer on to it by tipping the frame slightly in the opposite direction to un-weight her right foot. As the frame is travelling to the leads left this will cause the lady to step in that direction with her, now unweighted, right foot. After that you allow the lady's weight to transfer to her right foot for the pivot.

To dance the "gallop" you will have to start off moving your weight on to the trailing foot -- possibly with a slight tilt in the opposite direction and then "fall into" the move -- possibly with a "u" or rounded "w" motion of your "centre". The "tilt" is then the initial lean in to the curve.I'm not sure what this bit means. But it's probably right too :flower:


Probably most fun at a barn dance, or a polka :)
SpinDrThe triple step is fun for both these dances. And it's fun for MJ too.

I seem to have agreed with spindr on everything. Is he arguing that we shouldn't be doing the triple step in MJ or is he saying that we shouldn't be doing it the way I do it and teach it?

[Connie]

If you place the lady's weight on her right foot by lowering the frame slightly to the left and then moving the frame to the left you will take the lady's left foot towards her right. ?

Properbly incredible stupid question :blush: but I don't understand what you guys mean when you are talking about frame. It's mentioned quite often on here, but never heard it explained or talked about in class.

Would someone be kind enough to explain :flower:

[David Bailey]

Properbly incredible stupid question :blush:
Not a stupid question at all.


It's mentioned quite often on here, but never heard it explained or talked about in class.
Yeah, it's not too surprising that Ceroc classes don't talk about frame...


Would someone be kind enough to explain :flower:
From the Forum Glossary (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/faq.php?faq=csf_glossary#faq_csf_glossaryaz):

Frame: Term used to describe the connection between partners in a typical "close" hold. Firm, but not tense; the lead comes from the back and shoulders and the follower maintains connection through her back, hand and raised elbow. Think 'ballroom frame' (although it also applies to other dances).

[Caro]

When I was first taught the triple step at a Ceroc class I was told that the "signal" was to take your left hand towards your left knee. This exaggerates the tipping of the frame but has the same effect. However, it usually requires the beginner lady to have done the lesson and 'know' the move rather than follow the lead. This is a reasonable way to teach to a class who have not been told about the frame as it makes the move work.

You'll find that we are in fact agreeing Andy, my (and a few other's) point was that the tipping action is a signal rather than an actual lead. Tipping a good follower who hasn't been taught that move with that signal before will not make her triple step.
Now as you explain, there are good reasons why you may want to use this to teach that move in 10 min to a class of 70 people.

[Caro]

[ I agree that the starter step footwork could be lead (I still don't believe it always should be - follows responsible for their own footwork, etc - unless I am looking for a very specific outcome - perhaps more of a spring forward than usual, etc).

I agree that the follow is responsible for her footwork in most instances (in WCS), but is it still the case in a close hold ? The way I behave, as a follow, in a close hold is different from what I do in open dancing. I wouldn't start doing my own stuff and syncopating in a close hold (at least not at this stage because I would more likely than not mess up the connection and what the lead is doing), because I feel that my leader has got a lot more control over my body and I would expect him to lead my footwork as well.



I would also guess that I could, if I tried hard enough lead a triple (by actually moving myself to that side - a well connected follower would move with me and be forced to triple to keep her feet below her) as opposed to a weight shift (where there is still movement to that side just less of it, just sufficient to shift the weight). However the fact that I tend to always try and lead the latter but often experience the follower tripling regardless (and yes, I will freely admit my lead needs work) lead me to the thinking about convention.

I think that just reflects on the ability of the follow, because starter steps are mainly taught as triple steps, some less experienced follows tend to go into them automatically (i.e. doing the move rather than following).

PS: may be this discussion would be better moved to the learning WCS thread ?

[Andy McGregor]

You'll find that we are in fact agreeing Andy, my (and a few other's) point was that the tipping action is a signal rather than an actual lead. Tipping a good follower who hasn't been taught that move with that signal before will not make her triple step.
Now as you explain, there are good reasons why you may want to use this to teach that move in 10 min to a class of 70 people.Caro may think we're agreeing. She's just trying to flatter me. We are, in fact, disagreeing. I am saying that you can lead the triple step with somebody who knows about the frame and can follow in the closed hold. Caro is saying that you need a signal to do the triple step in MJ. I am saying that you need a good lead and a good follow - but they both need to know that they are dancing MJ, not some dance they've made up for themselves and not some sloppy dance they've learnt at a class that teaches signals in place of proper lead and follow.


PS: may be this discussion would be better moved to the learning WCS thread ?I can't see why. WCS is a different dance with different conventions and footwork from MJ. We are talking about he triple step in MJ. IMHO there is a place for discussion about WCS - and it isn't on this thread. At LAST something Caro and I agree on :innocent: :whistle:

[straycat]

That's pretty much what the triple step is. Although I do aim to make it smooth and skippy with very little rise and fall.


I think this is my main sticking point - and I need to stress that I'm talking purely from a Lindy perspective here. Triple steps as I was first taught them (in MJ) were gallopy. No-one bothered to correct this point for me for years after - in fact it was finally Andy Fleming who drummed into me that a good triple-step is not gallopy, not skippy, but extremely smooth. That there is a pulse, but it's completely disassociated from the triple.

Nowadays, I don't see triples as fancy bits of footwork to be led or to be used as set parts of particular moves - I just see them as an optional method of moving across the floor, getting weight transfers right or fitting in with the music - in essence, they're completely dispensible. So bringing all this back into MJ - I use them a fair amount... but not in any way that affects my partner. Ironically, I'd find them quite leadable if I used a gallopy or skippy style, but those are styles I've really grown to dislike.

[Caro]

Caro may think we're agreeing. She's just trying to flatter me. We are, in fact, disagreeing. I am saying that you can lead the triple step with somebody who knows about the frame and can follow in the closed hold. Caro is saying that you need a signal to do the triple step in MJ.

:what:
For the last time Andy, I am saying that you are teaching the triple step action in the first move using mainly a signal (the tipping action), rather than relying solely on the proper technique, i.e. using the frame and body lead. The tipping is not required to lead a triple step in a first move.
My communication skills are not that bad, so if you keep misquoting me and making me say things that I didn't, I'll call you a liar (funny, that you should remind you of somebody) or an idiot. Either way you'll end up on my ignore list.



I can't see why. WCS is a different dance with different conventions and footwork from MJ. We are talking about he triple step in MJ. IMHO there is a place for discussion about WCS - and it isn't on this thread. At LAST something Caro and I agree on :innocent: :whistle:

This refers to the posts and discussion I am having with Robd on this thread which talks about triples in WCS and not triple steps in the context of an MJ first move. Hence why it would be more relevant on a different thread.

[straycat]

Caro is saying that you need a signal to do the triple step in MJ. I am saying that you need a good lead and a good follow - but they both need to know that they are dancing MJ, not some dance they've made up for themselves and not some sloppy dance they've learnt at a class that teaches signals in place of proper lead and follow.

I'm not convinced that the 'tipping' lead technique is anything but a signal though. With good frame, I believe it would be easy to lead the FMG (first move gallop) without tipping. If you're doing more refined :devil: triples though, I'm not sure that's the case.

It could certainly be argued though that I don't really dance MJ anymore - but some dance or other that I make up as I go. I have no problem with that idea :cool:

[Andy McGregor]

I am saying that you are teaching the triple step action in the first move using mainly a signal (the tipping action), rather than relying solely on the proper technique, i.e. using the frame and body lead. The tipping is not required to lead a triple step in a first move.I think we're debating the difference between a lead and a signal. And that is where we are disagreeing. To some extent, all leads are signals. When leading properly you are not making the lady do anything you are indicating that she should do something by the way you move your body or hands. The lady actually does the moving for herself, in this way you could say that proper leading is signalling. The kind of signalling I dislike is the visual kind that has nothing to do with the move itself. Caro is right that you can lead the triple step without tipping the frame. However, I consider this tipping of the frame to be an exaggerated lead rather than a pointless signal.

My communication skills are not that bad, so if you keep misquoting me and making me say things that I didn't, I'll call you a liar (funny, that you should remind you of somebody) or an idiot. Either way you'll end up on my ignore list.I think that part of the debate is making ourselves understood by others. Sometimes it might seem like I'm misquoting somebody: most of the time it is not intentional. I certainly have no intention of misquoting Caro.

I am quite interested to know which liar I remind Caro of :innocent: I can think of only two liars on the forum - neither of them is currently posting. Athough there are quite a few of us idiots and it may be that Caro has over-estimated our intelligence :wink:

Either way you'll end up on my ignore list.You seem to agree with most people, therefore you'd find the forum a much duller place to visit if you didn't have me to disagree with :devil:

On the other hand, I can find plenty of people to disagree with :innocent:

[straycat]

I think we're debating the difference between a lead and a signal. And that is where we are disagreeing. To some extent, all leads are signals. When leading properly you are not making the lady do anything you are indicating that she should do something by the way you move your body or hands. The lady actually does the moving for herself, in this way you could say that proper leading is signalling.

Mmmm. Leads vs Signals - potentially a whole new debate. New thread time?
I tend to divide lead categories a bit differently. There are leads where, when executed well, the follower will naturally follow the lead without having to recognise it in any way, even if she's never been led into that move before. There are leads which require the follower to recognise them, identify them with a move, then do that move. This category includes visual leads. I regard these as 'signals'. Personally, I think tipping falls into that second category.


However, I consider this tipping of the frame to be an exaggerated lead rather than a pointless signal.
I wouldn't say it's pointless - I think it's a good signal to help one start learning this move, but I still see it as a signal - because the whole association between tipping and said step is, while useful, an artificial one. IMHO.



On the other hand, I can find plenty of people to disagree with :innocent:
I think we're all in agreement on that one. :waycool:

Um. Hang on.... :confused:

[David Bailey]

Mmmm. Leads vs Signals - potentially a whole new debate. New thread time?
No need - there's a good thread about it here:
MJDA forum (http://www.mjda.org/forum/showthread.php?t=456)

Warning: it gets... technical...

[Gadget]

So how should I lead a triplestep?
I'm more confused as to WHY? someone would want to actually lead one.
:confused::confused::confused: :what:

Ban them. Wipe them out. All tripplesteppers should be banished to some obscure dance form no-one has heard of where they can all dance with themselves and look down on everyone else... like WCS. :devil:


btw I lead it with a light lift in the lead and some telepathy

[spindr]

I seem to have agreed with spindr on everything. Is he arguing that we shouldn't be doing the triple step in MJ or is he saying that we shouldn't be doing it the way I do it and teach it?
I think it's a fun, expedient way to get beginners moving quickly.
Although the tilting, and travelling, plus looking at the feet to check that they are there :), will likely cause some floorcraft issues.

Time permitting, I would hope a triple step to be taught with soft knees and ankles, a level head and shoulders, quiet hands and small steps. Ideally a triple step shouldn't affect your partner, if they are single stepping -- and with minimal impact on floorcraft.

SpinDr