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Steven666
17th-October-2007, 10:19 AM
By which I mean the basic forms of such like of the Hatchback, Sway, Wurlitzer, Back Pass or even the single Pretzel.

By my knowledge they are never actually taught in their simple basic form yet many new intermediates and beginner (normally followers) simply don't recognise them which can be a hinderence considering these moves lead to so many variations.

In other franchises outside Ceroc, these simple classic moves are taught in the beginners lessons. But do you think Ceroc should do the same?

TheTramp
17th-October-2007, 10:35 AM
By which I mean the basic forms of such like of the Hatchback, Sway, Wurlitzer, Back Pass or even the single Pretzel.

By my knowledge they are never actually taught in their simple basic form yet many new intermediates and beginner (normally followers) simply don't recognise them which can be a hinderence considering these moves lead to so many variations.

In other franchises outside Ceroc, these simple classic moves are taught in the beginners lessons. But do you think Ceroc should do the same?

No.

I like the fact that Ceroc beginner classes are structured towards people who are there for the first night.

The (even the) single pretzel, for someone on their first night of dancing, is not an easy move, with lots of opportunity for guys to cause their partners pain during the behind the back part. And, from what I've seen, that applies to a lot of intermediate guys, let alone people on their first night! (Ask CeeCee for her opinion of doing the pretzel if you don't believe me).

It would be nice if there could be an intromediate class between beginners and intermediate, where the 'classic' moves could maybe be focused on. But in most cases, that's not really practical due to space restrictions.

There should be one of the classic moves taught in every intermediate class, so it won't be long before the new intermediates know each of them. As for beginners, it's easy. Don't do those moves with them. There's still plenty of others you can lead for beginners to follow. :D

Sparkles
17th-October-2007, 10:39 AM
The right-handed back pass is a beginner move.

Martin
17th-October-2007, 10:43 AM
By which I mean the basic forms of such like of the Hatchback, Sway, Wurlitzer, Back Pass or even the single Pretzel.

By my knowledge they are never actually taught in their simple basic form yet many new intermediates and beginner (normally followers) simply don't recognise them which can be a hinderence considering these moves lead to so many variations.

In other franchises outside Ceroc, these simple classic moves are taught in the beginners lessons. But do you think Ceroc should do the same?

So are these moves intermediate for Ceroc UK?

Locally these are beginner moves... is that your point?

tsh
17th-October-2007, 10:46 AM
An intermediate should not need to recognise a move to be able to lead a variation of it, they ought to be able to learn a whole move in a single class. (I'm assuming that they won't be landed with 4 moves which are unlike anything they've seen before).

If you're struggling with leading the moves you listed with a beginner follower, you need to improve your lead (and drop the pretzl).

Sean

David Bailey
17th-October-2007, 10:50 AM
Hi Steven, welcome to the forum - I note you ignored my advice elsewhere :wink:


By which I mean the basic forms of such like of the Hatchback, Sway, Wurlitzer, Back Pass or even the single Pretzel.

By my knowledge they are never actually taught in their simple basic form yet many new intermediates and beginner (normally followers) simply don't recognise them which can be a hinderence considering these moves lead to so many variations.
Mmmm. As I've said elsewhere, ifollowers should never have to "recognise" a move. If the move is well-led, it should be easy to follow - you shouldn't need to rely on a follower's pattern-recognition skills...


In other franchises outside Ceroc, these simple classic moves are taught in the beginners lessons. But do you think Ceroc should do the same?
Presumably, you'd have to remove some other Beginner moves to make room - what would your suggested set be?

Martin
17th-October-2007, 11:00 AM
Hi Steven, welcome to the forum - I note you ignored my advice elsewhere :wink:

And who wouldn't :rolleyes:



Presumably, you'd have to remove some other Beginner moves to make room - what would your suggested set be?

Why remove when you can add :confused:

Welcome "Steve" have fun :D:wink:

Almost an Angel
17th-October-2007, 11:17 AM
By which I mean the basic forms of such like of the Hatchback, Sway, Wurlitzer, Back Pass or even the single Pretzel.

By my knowledge they are never actually taught in their simple basic form yet many new intermediates and beginner (normally followers) simply don't recognise them which can be a hinderence considering these moves lead to so many variations.

In other franchises outside Ceroc, these simple classic moves are taught in the beginners lessons. But do you think Ceroc should do the same?

Not sure where you're based as it doesn't say on your profile but in many places and especially around here those moves are most definately taught in their most basic form as part of the intermediate classes as Trampy pointed out- in addition to that they are taught as part of the intermediate workshops. And as Sparkles correctly pointed out the back pass is a beginner move so is most definately taught.

I think what you're struggling with here is the fact that if you try to lead these moves on a new intermediate (or beginners) they only have a few set patterns that they have automatic responses to - let me try and explain - most new intermediates are not actually following the lead they are responding and moving according to the moves you start to lead. (I know I'm using a generalisation I realise there are exceptions to the norm) The only experience they have of moves is the ones they've been exposed to.

For example if the intermediate class had a 1/2 pretzel variation in during freestyle they would see the initial lead and assume you were doing that move and react by moving through the motion rather than following what you were actually leading.

I think this is more to do with actual lead and follow skills rather than what moves are taught at an intermediate level be it Ceroc or other. Possibly at venues outside Ceroc they are exposed to different moves at different times but the outcome is still the same - put them with someone whose moves they haven't experienced and you will still have the same fundamental problem - the follows respond to what they know not what is led until they learn to recognise the difference and respond to the lead.

Lead and follow skills come with time, I'd love to be able to teach all the beginners and intermediates lead and follow skills but it's something that requires work and comes with time and experience.

Angel x

Steven666
17th-October-2007, 11:27 AM
The right-handed back pass is a beginner move.

Sorry I meant the back hander.


So are these moves intermediate for Ceroc UK?

Locally these are beginner moves... is that your point?

They are not part of the 19 (or so) beginners moves and yet never expicitly taught on their own.

David Bailey
17th-October-2007, 11:34 AM
Why remove when you can add :confused:
If you add (say) 4 moves to the existing, err, 16 or so (?), then that means you're adding another week to the 4-week "beginner training course" cycle, so it takes extra time to go over those moves.

Plus, you can't cover that expanded set in the existing workshop structure.

Plus, if you keep on adding moves to the set, where do you stop? 30? 50? 600?

You have to have some limited set, and 16-18 is the size that Ceroc uses.

Steven666
17th-October-2007, 11:43 AM
Hi Steven, welcome to the forum - I note you ignored my advice elsewhere :wink:

You recognised my username then. Lol. I didn't recognise yours.


If you're struggling with leading the moves you listed with a beginner follower, you need to improve your lead (and drop the pretzl).

It's not me who struggles with the lead. I get far too many complements about the quality of my lead, from beginners to intermediates ofter stating I'm the best lead in the room - *blows own trumpet*. It a problem for those who don't have such a strong lead and the fact that followers tend to state that fact to me after a dance from a weak lead.

As for me I tend to only dance moves I have perfected and NEVER use such moves in their basic form.


Why remove when you can add :confused:

Exactly. Also adding that beginners can often get bored of the beginners set of moves before they are ready to step to intermediate. Something which I know has put dancers off returning. I say merely expand, not subsitute. Not overly helpful for the complete beginners I know but more helpful to those not completely read for the step up.


Welcome "Steve" have fun :D:wink:

Cheers!


Not sure where you're based as it doesn't say on your profile but in many places and especially around here those moves are most definately taught in their most basic form as part of the intermediate classes as Trampy pointed out- in addition to that they are taught as part of the intermediate workshops. And as Sparkles correctly pointed out the back pass is a beginner move so is most definately taught.

I'm from Crewe and dance around Cheshire, Stockport, Manchester, North Wales (and the Midlands on rare occasions). And as I said I meant the bank hander (I forgot the name of it:blush:).


I think what you're struggling with here is the fact that if you try to lead these moves on a new intermediate (or beginners) they only have a few set patterns that they have automatic responses to - let me try and explain - most new intermediates are not actually following the lead they are responding and moving according to the moves you start to lead. (I know I'm using a generalisation I realise there are exceptions to the norm) The only experience they have of moves is the ones they've been exposed to.

For example if the intermediate class had a 1/2 pretzel variation in during freestyle they would see the initial lead and assume you were doing that move and react by moving through the motion rather than following what you were actually leading.

I think this is more to do with actual lead and follow skills rather than what moves are taught at an intermediate level be it Ceroc or other. Possibly at venues outside Ceroc they are exposed to different moves at different times but the outcome is still the same - put them with someone whose moves they haven't experienced and you will still have the same fundamental problem - the follows respond to what they know not what is led until they learn to recognise the difference and respond to the lead.

I do agree but that could be argued that the follow is thinking rather than the lead not being in control. But I think everyone goes through that some stage. I have only just taken up following myself and I do realise how difficult it is to empty ones mind of thought. I know it will get easier though.

David Franklin
17th-October-2007, 11:45 AM
If you add (say) 4 moves to the existing, err, 16 or so (?), then that means you're adding another week to the 4-week "beginner training course" cycle, so it takes extra time to go over those moves.You don't have to restrict yourself to 4 moves per class though. The classes I attended in Sydney, they did about 8 moves in the beginners class, including pretzels and leans. It did seem to work fine, even though UK experience would suggest that's far too much for beginners to cope with. I think one difference is that there are more experienced dancers who do the beginners class, so there are quite a few 'unofficial taxis' in the line.

[I'm not saying this is a better way of doing it, more that I bet this is where Martin is coming from].

TheTramp
17th-October-2007, 11:52 AM
Exactly. Also adding that beginners can often get bored of the beginners set of moves before they are ready to step to intermediate. Something which I know has put dancers off returning. I say merely expand, not subsitute. Not overly helpful for the complete beginners I know but more helpful to those not completely read for the step up.

But surely, if they aren't ready to step up, that's because they can't do those beginner moves that (you think) they are bored of. So, what they need to do, is practice those beginner moves, not try to learn more beginner moves that they also won't be able to do. If they can do the complete set of current beginner moves, then they are ready to step up. If they can't, then that's what they need to be learning.....

timbp
17th-October-2007, 11:53 AM
The (even the) single pretzel, for someone on their first night of dancing, is not an easy move,
I agree it is not easy.


with lots of opportunity for guys to cause their partners pain during the behind the back part.
I think (not being a teacher) that is more a matter of how it is taught.
Certainly, it seems to flow with no problems with first timer followers if it has been taught in the class. First-timer followers who do not know the move can be a problem, and that could lead to injury to either leader or follower (or both). When I lead it with someone I don't know, I'm always ready to change and do something else at any point in the move.

I realise there may be a big difference for people trying to follow a first-time leader who thinks he knows the pretzel.

Are beginner classes aimed at beginner leaders or beginner followers (I think everyone agrees followers progress more quickly initially)?



In three and a half years, I have never been taught the catapult, although I have been taught many moves that are supposedly based on it.

timbp
17th-October-2007, 12:08 PM
You don't have to restrict yourself to 4 moves per class though. The classes I attended in Sydney, they did about 8 moves in the beginners class, including pretzels and leans. It did seem to work fine, even though UK experience would suggest that's far too much for beginners to cope with. I think one difference is that there are more experienced dancers who do the beginners class, so there are quite a few 'unofficial taxis' in the line.

[I'm not saying this is a better way of doing it, more that I bet this is where Martin is coming from].

How do you count moves?
I've only ever danced in Sydney, and I always thought beginner classes were 3 or 4 moves (and the 3-4 is whether you count a return as a move).
Intermediate classes seem to be whatever the teacher can get away with (considering the limitations of her demo).



I think one difference is that there are more experienced dancers who do the beginners class, so there are quite a few 'unofficial taxis' in the line.
I had to requote this, just to convince myself what it implies is real.
Here it is pretty standard to do the beginner class, help the newcomers, dance with the first timers (I have started to understand from this forum that men who dance with first timers are automatically regarded as sleazes in the UK; but here we dance with newcomers to build the dance, not to get laid).

And most intermediate dancers will join the beginner class. Both to help the beginners and because the beginner class is a good opportunity to practise adding style to basic moves.

Steven666
17th-October-2007, 12:09 PM
In three and a half years, I have never been taught the catapult, although I have been taught many moves that are supposedly based on it.

Seriously. It is taught in the beginners class around Cheshire every 3-4 weeks.


But surely, if they aren't ready to step up, that's because they can't do those beginner moves that (you think) they are bored of. So, what they need to do, is practice those beginner moves, not try to learn more beginner moves that they also won't be able to do. If they can do the complete set of current beginner moves, then they are ready to step up. If they can't, then that's what they need to be learning.....

Do people ever say they are bored of the beginners class/review class yet you know they aren't fully competant of leading/following such moves? Unfortunately I hear it far too often.

I know it can be a lot to take in at once for beginners but some of the better newer dancers I know went straight into the deep end into intermediate and progressed quicker for it.

This is more true for followers simply as they will be less likely to anticpate as they are more suspectable to being lead into variations and not just what they think is happening from what they already know.

For leads, this isn't really the case I know as they need to be comfortable with the beginner moves beforehand.

EDIT -

Just to clarrify:

BEGINNERS MOVES

Armjive
Armjive Pushspin
Armjive Swizzle
Backpass
Basket
Catapult
Cerocspin
First Move
First Move Pushspin
In and Out
Manspin
Octopus
Shoulderdrop
Shoulderslide
Side to Side Shoulders
Slo Comb
Yoyo

CLASSIC MOVES

Accordion
Nelson Accordion
Archiespin
Basket Unwind
Basket Unwind/Wind
Basket Pull
Butterfly
Butterfly Cheat
Catapull
Single handed Catapull
First Move Barrier
First Move Barrier with a twist
First Move Walk Through
Open First Move (travelling)
Hatchback
Hatchflick Barrier
Half Windmill
Pretzel
Half Pretzel
Almost Pretzel
Open Pretzel
Man's Wrap
Neckbreak
Short Neckbreak
Double Handed Return into Shoulder Spin
Seducer
Secret and Spin
Secret Swizzle
Sway
Double Handed Sway
Sway Pull Shoulders
Swizzlestick
Teapot
Wraparound 1 or 2
Wurlitzer

Is it not possible for some of the more simple classic moves to be downgraded to be included into the beginners moves rota?

David Franklin
17th-October-2007, 12:37 PM
How do you count moves?
I've only ever danced in Sydney, and I always thought beginner classes were 3 or 4 moves (and the 3-4 is whether you count a return as a move).
Intermediate classes seem to be whatever the teacher can get away with (considering the limitations of her demo).Same way anyone else does I think. Given the teacher named each move, it was pretty clear where one started and the next one stopped. I don't know if the class was unusual though (Mosman).

[N.B. I'm talking as if my memory is 100% accurate, which given this was 4 years ago now, it might not be. I definitely remember thinking "blimey, that's a lot of moves for a beginners class" at the time, though. I remember two moves were definitely a pretzel and a basket-lean as well].


I had to requote this, just to convince myself what it implies is real.
Here it is pretty standard to do the beginner class, help the newcomers, dance with the first timersIt's common amongst people who've been dancing maybe a year or so, but much less so amongst the more experienced dancers. Experienced dancers tend not to go the classes at all. (I am not implying this is a good thing).


(I have started to understand from this forum that men who dance with first timers are automatically regarded as sleazes in the UK; but here we dance with newcomers to build the dance, not to get laid).I think this is slightly different - dancing with first timers doesn't get you regarded as a sleaze (I hope not, seeing as I do it a lot at my local venue). What's sleazy is the older experienced dancer (usually not actually that good) who seems to makes a beeline for only young pretty beginners. There are usually ulterior motives, at best the "I'm not that great but dance with a beginner and she'll think I am", but at worst the "No, trust me, it really does work better if we dance groin-to-groin" types... :sick:

timbp
17th-October-2007, 12:37 PM
Just to clarrify:

Just to clarify, could you give the Australian names of those moves, because I have no idea from that list which ones I have been taught, whether in beginner or in intermediate.

Steven666
17th-October-2007, 12:44 PM
Just to clarify, could you give the Australian names of those moves, because I have no idea from that list which ones I have been taught, whether in beginner or in intermediate.

I would if I knew what the Australian names were but unfunately I don't sorry.

But I do wish the Springer is taught more often over here. I do like that move and it's variantions. I've heard it's a beginner move in Australia.

tsh
17th-October-2007, 12:51 PM
Swap the sway for the first move push-spin, and the 'beginners' moves cover 95% of what I lead. The 'classic' moves don't fit my style at all...

Sean

timbp
17th-October-2007, 12:56 PM
But I do wish the Springer is taught more often over here. I do like that move and it's variantions. I've heard it's a beginner move in Australia.

The springer and kiwi springer are definitely taught in beginner classes here.

I don't know if the Australian companies have set lists of beginner moves. I think CMJ has a curriculum (both beginner and intermediate) that they work through over the year, but I don't know any details, or how much scope teachers have to depart from the specified class.

Twirly
17th-October-2007, 01:05 PM
By which I mean the basic forms of such like of the Hatchback, Sway, Wurlitzer, Back Pass or even the single Pretzel.

By my knowledge they are never actually taught in their simple basic form yet many new intermediates and beginner (normally followers) simply don't recognise them which can be a hindrance considering these moves lead to so many variations.

In other franchises outside Ceroc, these simple classic moves are taught in the beginners lessons. But do you think Ceroc should do the same?

I’ve been to quite a few classes where the teacher in intermediates has pointed out which of the moves in the routine is the classic one. In fact last night at Putney it was the hatchback, and Tim said that if you only remembered one move from the routine, remember that one - useful advice I thought.

DJ has already made the point about follows not needing to recognise moves, so that point is a red herring! What followers need to learn is that their partner can lead them into anything they like… as a follow, you just need to learn to adapt to it. Made a huge difference to my dancing when I realised that – even if I still have to remind myself of it sometimes. :blush:


It's not me who struggles with the lead. I get far too many complements about the quality of my lead, from beginners to intermediates often stating I'm the best lead in the room - *blows own trumpet*. It a problem for those who don't have such a strong lead and the fact that followers tend to state that fact to me after a dance from a weak lead.

Surely this is to do with being able to lead the move clearly? Am not sure how it fits in with your argument that the range of beginners moves should be expanded. I’d have thought that Trampy’s point that you should master leading the beginner moves properly before starting intermediates would be more relevant here. And it’s learning to lead, not learning a move that’s the important bit.

Sadly, there are plenty of leads out there who have been dancing for years and who clearly know a huge variety of moves, but who aren’t necessarily that great to dance with because they can’t communicate clearly.


Plus, you can't cover that expanded set in the existing workshop structure.

They do cover some of the classic intermediate moves in the Beginners Plus workshop. I did that when changing from beginners to intermediates (which is scary for a follow – never mind what it must be like for a lead!). I know a couple of leads who repeated this workshop to get some of these moves into their muscle memory to give themselves greater confidence in intermediates and freestyle. But again, it teaches people moves, not how to communicate the lead clearly to the follow.


I think this is slightly different - dancing with first timers doesn't get you regarded as a sleaze (I hope not, seeing as I do it a lot at my local venue). What's sleazy is the older experienced dancer (usually not actually that good) who seems to makes a beeline for only young pretty beginners. There are usually ulterior motives, at best the "I'm not that great but dance with a beginner and she'll think I am", but at worst the "No, trust me, it really does work better if we dance groin-to-groin" types... :sick:

:yeah:

TheTramp
17th-October-2007, 01:16 PM
I know it can be a lot to take in at once for beginners but some of the better newer dancers I know went straight into the deep end into intermediate and progressed quicker for it.

This is more true for followers simply as they will be less likely to anticpate as they are more suspectable to being lead into variations and not just what they think is happening from what they already know.

For leads, this isn't really the case I know as they need to be comfortable with the beginner moves beforehand.

You seem to be arguing almost against yourself here.

If people are going to go straight in at the deep end and progress quicker, then, if it works, what's the problem with that? Obviously, for some followers it may well be that they can follow moves well, and be able to do the beginner classes. It's much less likely for new leads that they will be able to do the same, although, not unheard of. But fair enough, for the people good enough, and then they get to learn the pretzel, wurlitzer, and all the other moves too.

However, we should be talking about the majority of people here. The ones who struggle through beginner classes for the first few weeks. Who really struggle to cope with the first move, let alone the pretzel or anything else. Why make the beginner class much harder for them, so that they give up and don't come back.


with lots of opportunity for guys to cause their partners pain during the behind the back part.

I think (not being a teacher) that is more a matter of how it is taught.
Certainly, it seems to flow with no problems with first timer followers if it has been taught in the class. First-timer followers who do not know the move can be a problem, and that could lead to injury to either leader or follower (or both). When I lead it with someone I don't know, I'm always ready to change and do something else at any point in the move.
If you look, you'll see I'm referring to the guys leading it. Sure, if it's an experienced guy, and the lady doesn't have piston-like arms on her first night, it's well possible to lead a pretzel. And for the first night male, who's nervous, tense, and probably a little bit jerky, leading it on a first night female, who isn't experienced enough to relax through it, it's a little bit different! :rolleyes:

As for classes in Australia, yes, I'll agree that a lot more of a higher degree of difficulty is taught in beginner classes. It led me to put a question on the Aussie forum asking "Should beginner classes be for beginners?". I'd say in general, the average standard of dancing is a lot higher in places like Sydney, because a lot of people don't hang around and come back, because the classes are too difficult. Certainly, some of them I've seen both at beginner level and intermediate level have made me cringe, and to be frank, I'm often quite glad that our classes aren't the same. (Beginner classes that include leans and dips, intermediate classes with 2 baby aerials and a deep dip, classes (both beginner and intermediate) that routinely go on for much longer than an hour - one night I heard of during my recent trip over, the intermediate class finished at 10:20, having started at 9pm, leaving 10 minutes of freestyle!)

Steven666
17th-October-2007, 01:20 PM
I’ve been to quite a few classes where the teacher in intermediates has pointed out which of the moves in the routine is the classic one. In fact last night at Putney it was the hatchback, and Tim said that if you only remembered one move from the routine, remember that one - useful advice I thought.

DJ has already made the point about follows not needing to recognise moves, so that point is a red herring! What followers need to learn is that their partner can lead them into anything they like… as a follow, you just need to learn to adapt to it. Made a huge difference to my dancing when I realised that – even if I still have to remind myself of it sometimes. :blush:

The classic move is nearly always the second move. The first is an expansion from one of the taught beginners moves and the last 1-2 moves in the routine are of the instructors choice. That is a basic generalisation from what I know of.

But the hatchback is a classic one to go wrong for beginners who suffer from FAS (floppy arm syndome). More tension is in the arm is require once the flat back of the hand is shown indicating a hatchback but if the follower is only expectinga yoyo then the tension is not guaranteed to be there.


Surely this is to do with being able to lead the move clearly? Am not sure how it fits in with your argument that the range of beginners moves should be expanded. I’d have thought that Trampy’s point that you should master leading the beginner moves properly before starting intermediates would be more relevant here. And it’s learning to lead, not learning a move that’s the important bit.

Followers shouldn't learn moves and it annoys me when they do as it just adds to expectation especially amongst beginner-intermediates. But leads do need to learn moves as well as lean to lead. You can't lead a move effectively if you don't know the basics of teh move in the first place. When I was a taxi, the basic consencous was to remove all style from your dancing so the beginner see the core movements in a move so they recognise what to follow easier.


Sadly, there are plenty of leads out there who have been dancing for years and who clearly know a huge variety of moves, but who aren’t necessarily that great to dance with because they can’t communicate clearly.

I agree. But it can work the other way to in that followers individual styling can often make things difficult for the lead as they can over twist, delay without showing clear signal that they wish to do so by way of thumb on the back of the leads hand or how they sometimes twist or position themself when stepping back sometime restricting the choice of the next move for the lead.

(explained badly:blush:)


You seem to be arguing almost against yourself here.

If people are going to go straight in at the deep end and progress quicker, then, if it works, what's the problem with that? Obviously, for some followers it may well be that they can follow moves well, and be able to do the beginner classes. It's much less likely for new leads that they will be able to do the same, although, not unheard of. But fair enough, for the people good enough, and then they get to learn the pretzel, wurlitzer, and all the other moves too.

However, we should be talking about the majority of people here. The ones who struggle through beginner classes for the first few weeks. Who really struggle to cope with the first move, let alone the pretzel or anything else. Why make the beginner class much harder for them, so that they give up and don't come back.

It is really about compromisation.

Is it better to help the complete beginners to learn the standard basic moves - boring the more progressed beginner not quite ready to dance at intermediate level.

Or,

Is it better to keep up the interest of the progresed beginner not to give it up when stuck in between the two difficulty levels at expense of hoping the complete beginners don't get too overwelmed.

To be honest, I'm not sure of the correct answer myself.

David Franklin
17th-October-2007, 01:27 PM
I'm going to go to hell, I'm sure, but did the following catch anyone else's eye? (emphasis mine):


It a problem for those who don't have such a strong lead and the fact that followers tend to state that fact to me after a dance from a weak lead.

:whistle:

Twirly
17th-October-2007, 01:34 PM
Is it better to help the complete beginners to learn the standard basic moves - boring the more progressed beginner not quite ready to dance at intermediate level.

Or,

Is it better to keep up the interest of the progresed beginner not to give it up when stuck in between the two difficulty levels at expense of hoping the complete beginners don't get too overwelmed.

To be honest, I'm not sure of the correct answer myself.

That’s what I was wondering with regard to your original statement. I’d say send the progressed beginner to the beginner plus workshop and get them up to intermediates, but continue doing the beginners class to consolidate their learning.

If you include more moves, all you are going to do is scare that less advanced beginner, and maybe they won’t come back – and we need more leads, not fewer! :what:


I'm going to go to hell, I'm sure, but did the following catch anyone else's eye? (emphasis mine):

:whistle:

Uhm, yes, that was my point earlier :whistle:

Steven666
17th-October-2007, 01:40 PM
I'm going to go to hell, I'm sure, but did the following catch anyone else's eye? (emphasis mine):



:whistle:

Should I hightlight the "don't" have a strong lead, therefore indicating a weak lead?

Gadget
17th-October-2007, 01:56 PM
As for me I tend to only dance moves I have perfected and NEVER use such moves in their basic form.
A couple of things...

Are the comments of getting "bored" with the beginner moves coming from leads or followers?

How do you define "basic form" of the moves? (especially where they start/stop)

How do you know something has prevented folk from returning when they haven't returned? How do you know that the same thing hasn't encouraged 500% more people to stay than go?

The intermediate moves are taught seperatly, in their "basic form" - there are two workshops: Intermediates I and Intermediates II that go through them.

People are normally at a Ceroc night to dance and have fun - the class and learning just give a common ground for the rest of the socialising. The ability and improving is less important than having a good time - which I agree with BTW.

Steven666
17th-October-2007, 02:10 PM
Are the comments of getting "bored" with the beginner moves coming from leads or followers?

Usually the followers as they pick it up quicker yet are stuck with their life partner who's learning isn't as quick. But it is sometimes the leads too. I know leads who have given up simply as they couldn't do intermediate but were bored with beginners. It does happen.


How do you define "basic form" of the moves? (especially where they start/stop)

A basic form like a sway with no added extras. Or a hatcback. I have never see these taught on their own at Ceroc venues. EVER.


How do you know something has prevented folk from returning when they haven't returned? How do you know that the same thing hasn't encouraged 500% more people to stay than go?

They complain about the fact and are never seen again. But true the number of the people who have stayed in relation to those who have left is not known. So it's difficult to make judgement looking at it like that. Unfortunatly one seem to compromise the other.


The intermediate moves are taught seperatly, in their "basic form" - there are two workshops: Intermediates I and Intermediates II that go through them.

True but what percentage of beginners or beginner/intermediates actually go to these workshops? I'm sure it's not that high unfortunately.


People are normally at a Ceroc night to dance and have fun - the class and learning just give a common ground for the rest of the socialising. The ability and improving is less important than having a good time - which I agree with BTW.

I agree with the having fun aspect but actively improving doesn't help itself easily or quickly.

Dreadful Scathe
17th-October-2007, 02:12 PM
Should I hightlight the "don't" have a strong lead, therefore indicating a weak lead?

can you define your terms a bit better ? what do you mean by "strong" and "weak"? In the example of a pretzel, most people stick a hand behind their back for the follower to see so its nothing physical at all. (and its not a signal anymore than holding out your hand for the follower to take normally is)

Steven666
17th-October-2007, 02:21 PM
can you define your terms a bit better ? what do you mean by "strong" and "weak"? In the example of a pretzel, most people stick a hand behind their back for the follower to see so its nothing physical at all.

My English skills have always been poor and I will have to appolise for that. As for defining difference between a strong and weak lead, that is not so easy. I have seen lengthy discussions trying to define what such turn means and what makes it strong or weak. I'll just use my nous to decide for myself what I mean but the next person will just have there own take on what is strong and weak. It's just to open to define expicitly.


(and its not a signal anymore than holding out your hand for the follower to take normally is)

True but all the lead moves are signals or indicators to some degree. That is what the follower should be following.

But if you mean offering for a double handed hold, you should be collecting the second coming out of the previous return rather than sticking your hand out waiting for a hand to drape over it.

Dreadful Scathe
17th-October-2007, 02:39 PM
My English skills have always been poor and I will have to appolise for that. As for defining difference between a strong and weak lead, that is not so easy. I have seen lengthy discussions trying to define what such turn means and what makes it strong or weak. I'll just use my nous to decide for myself what I mean but the next person will just have there own take on what is strong and weak. It's just to open to define expicitly.

eh? Thats why I'm asking YOU what YOU mean by "strong" and "weak" not what anyone else means by "strong" and "weak" :rolleyes: Unless you were happy to use terms that were meaningless :)



But if you mean offering for a double handed hold, you should be collecting the second coming out of the previous return rather than sticking your hand out waiting for a hand to drape over it.

Theres nothing complicated about it - if one hand is offered, the follower grabs it with their right , if their right is in a hand already they grab the offered hand with their left, if they don't see the offered hand, the leader ends up doing a different move. :)

Steven666
17th-October-2007, 02:44 PM
eh? Thats why I'm asking YOU what YOU mean by "strong" and "weak" not what anyone else means by "strong" and "weak" :rolleyes: Unless you were happy to use terms that were meaningless :)

Strong - Easy to follow.

Weak - Difficult to follow.

I'm just simple minded. Now comes my definition of following being the ability to adjust/react to the lead's actions. Maybe a think about it too simply. Oh well.


Theres nothing complicated about it - if one hand is offered, the follower grabs it with their right , if their right is in a hand already they grab the offered hand with their left, if they don't see the offered hand, the leader ends up doing a different move. :)

Correct but I find it cleaner and more flowing to collect the hand rather than to make an offer.

Dreadful Scathe
17th-October-2007, 03:01 PM
Strong - Easy to follow.

Weak - Difficult to follow.

Thats better ;) It makes what you said before much clearer, as I do think a lot of people reading may read "strong" as if it was "more physical" rather than simply "clearer" :)




Correct but I find it cleaner and more flowing to collect the hand rather than to make an offer.

It probably depends on the move : in general "the follower sees a hand and goes for it , you move towards theirs and collect in the middle" ... Impossible with some moves - like the pretzel and where you are "inviting" the follower to "step" toward the hand specifically. I think i agree though :)

David Bailey
17th-October-2007, 03:09 PM
Strong - Easy to follow.

Weak - Difficult to follow.
The general consensus is that "Strong lead" and "Weak lead" are probably poor terms, as they implicitly encourage use of force, which is a Bad Thing. Although, as with almost everything else, there is some debate about it.

Personally I prefer "Clear" versus "Unclear".

Oh, and:

compromisation
:eek::confused::sick::tears:

Dreadful Scathe
17th-October-2007, 03:10 PM
at least it wasnt "compromization" :)

David Franklin
17th-October-2007, 03:12 PM
The general consensus is that "Strong lead" and "Weak lead" are probably poor terms, as they implicitly encourage use of force, which is a Bad Thing. Although, as with almost everything else, there is some debate about it."Signal" tends not to go down well either, and can lead to interminably protracted discussions about the exact nature of lead and follow.

..

Um, I'm told... :blush:

killingtime
17th-October-2007, 04:03 PM
Anyway some bullet points about my humble opinion of the classic intermediate moves being "intermediate":


They could be too difficult for beginners if they we moved to beginner.
Exceptional beginner leads could move to intermediate early.
Exceptional beginner followers will probably do all the more "advanced" moves in freestyle anyway.
Just starting intermediates might well be reassured that they can get one of the intermediate moves in an class rather than assume the whole thing is "out of their league".


It's, of course, not to suggest that we could try some of these in the beginner class. Some of them used to be (the windmill and hatchback I think) but I assume they were moved away for good reason.

bigdjiver
17th-October-2007, 04:21 PM
...How do you know something has prevented folk from returning when they haven't returned? How do you know that the same thing hasn't encouraged 500% more people to stay than go?...One way Ceroc should know above the effects of moves ion beginners is observation and feedback by the teachers, and other crew. and from the on beginners themselves.
The other way of obtaining information is to analyse the return rate statistics for each move taught. If 99% of people return for another visit normally, but only 40% return on average after the "arm-wrenching strangler" move is taught, then it is a fair guess that the move had something to do with it.

Martin
17th-October-2007, 09:28 PM
Just to clarify, could you give the Australian names of those moves, because I have no idea from that list which ones I have been taught, whether in beginner or in intermediate.

Hi timbp, I will interpret.. they are ALL beginner moves in Sydney. Every one of them.

Martin

Steven666
18th-October-2007, 08:41 AM
Hi timbp, I will interpret.. they are ALL beginner moves in Sydney. Every one of them.

Martin

Even the classic moves? Don't the beginners get overwelmed or do they just naterally "get it" better than Brits?

Martin
18th-October-2007, 01:39 PM
Even the classic moves? Don't the beginners get overwelmed or do they just naterally "get it" better than Brits?

Yes even the classic moves. Some of the names vary, but the moves are the same and are taught in beginners classes. (I have learnt to be tri-ligual, having done the same move with 3 names in UK, Aussie and NZ!)

I am not saying putting these all in beginners is a good or a bad thing, it is just the way it is here.

Having been "intergrated into Aussie society" - I would stick them all into beginner classes... with of course the correct tips and trick to avoid arm wrenching... They expect more here, I considered I was a good dancer and a good teacher, then I came to Sydney and thought WOW... I have to lift my game.

I do talk about the differences (UK and Aussie) with Trampy and I often agree with him, I have seen a 1hr 20 mins intermediate classes, but thankfully not in the dance company where I taught.
I would stick to 40 mins max intermediate and 3 or 4 moves max. Not the same with all teachers I agree.

Lou
18th-October-2007, 06:57 PM
Anyway some bullet points about my humble opinion of the classic intermediate moves being "intermediate":

....snip good reasons....

It's, of course, not to suggest that we could try some of these in the beginner class. Some of them used to be (the windmill and hatchback I think) but I assume they were moved away for good reason.

Presumably, it was to simplify & consolidate the Ceroc™ Beginners Class Experience, but that doesn't really explain the introduction of that awful Shoulder Drop Move.

Personally, I'm glad to see the back of the Windmill, as it's a Move From Hell, but I miss the old Hatchback and the Wurlitzer. Oh, and the Sway, of course.

But I come from a slightly different background to most of the folks on here - so I'm used to a different set of beginner moves. :D Lots of the Classic Moves are still taught in Beginner classes - and I don't think it impacts the retention rate too much.

I like the concept of Basic Moves, rather than "Beginner Moves". As Basic Moves, they can be seen as building blocks within MJ.

Which brings me to Twirly's comment:
Surely this is to do with being able to lead the move clearly? Am not sure how it fits in with your argument that the range of beginners moves should be expanded. I’d have thought that Trampy’s point that you should master leading the beginner moves properly before starting intermediates would be more relevant here. And it’s learning to lead, not learning a move that’s the important bit.
Many of these Classic Moves form the foundation of more complex Intermediate "moves". By teaching them more often (maybe by reintroducing them to Beginners, or by introducing an Improvers (Intromediate) level), it helps an improving Leader by:

Bridging that huge gap between Beginners and Intermediates
Creating a "common vocabulary" of moves
Gently introducing concepts of Lead & Follow (e.g. leading variations - I think Steven666 has already used the difference between Yo-Yo and Hatchback as a good example of this)




Is it better to help the complete beginners to learn the standard basic moves - boring the more progressed beginner not quite ready to dance at intermediate level.
Good question. And I'd argue with Trampie's point that they should continue to be bored in beginner classes before moving up to Intermediate. Currently, no Lead & Follow is taught in the vast majority of Beginner classes - so how is the poor new beginner supposed to learn these skills. Holding him back & letting him get bored is not going to help retention rates. :rolleyes:


That’s what I was wondering with regard to your original statement. I’d say send the progressed beginner to the beginner plus workshop and get them up to intermediates, but continue doing the beginners class to consolidate their learning.
:grin: Nice idea - but I think it needs more than just one workshop.



Having been "intergrated into Aussie society" - I would stick them all into beginner classes... with of course the correct tips and trick to avoid arm wrenching... They expect more here, I considered I was a good dancer and a good teacher, then I came to Sydney and thought WOW... I have to lift my game.

A good thing about having a limited number of Beginner moves, is that they're repeated frequently from week to week.

However, I think you have a good point about setting expectations and raising the bar. There's another thread talking about the differences between us in the UK and you guys where it seems that there are more men dancing. Perhaps it might improve the male retention rate if classes were made more challenging? :devil:

Andy McGregor
19th-October-2007, 10:30 PM
owever, I think you have a good point about setting expectations and raising the bar. There's another thread talking about the differences between us in the UK and you guys where it seems that there are more men dancing. Perhaps it might improve the male retention rate if classes were made more challenging? :devil:In my experience, the guys who find the beginners routine "challenging" are the ones who don't come back. I think the way to get guys to come back is for the women to dance in their underwear and for the teacher to offer free beer to any guy who can get the routine :whistle: