"Strong Lead"

[Gadget]

Inspired from this post...

Well out the 15 lessons I've had 7 beginner and 8 intermediate. The teachers have never said anything on following, they just keep going on about having a strong lead.
... and some observations I've made over the last wee while:

There seems to be a trend (only over the last year I would say) of teachers emphisising the forcefullness of leading rather than the precision: lots of words and actions and encouragement to get the leads to physically drag their partners into line and move them where/when desired.
I'm not sure if this is me trying to get more precision into my lead that has thrown it into contrast, whether it is a trend, part of training, or what: it may just be me.

I'm not a follow, so I don't know if there is any noticable change in the over all 'strength' of the leads being given. Am I being over critical? Are there more 'yankers' than there used to be? Are the followers developing new skills to negate any 'yanking'?

[Aleks]

IMO the use ofthe word 'strong' is a mistake.
'Clear' and 'precise' work better.

[David Franklin]

There seems to be a trend (only over the last year I would say) of teachers emphisising the forcefullness of leading rather than the precision: lots of words and actions and encouragement to get the leads to physically drag their partners into line and move them where/when desired.Completely the opposite in London, from what I've seen - you used to hear "strong lead" 5 years ago, but not nearly so much now. (You still hear "firm lead" which I also don't like, but it's better than strong).


Clear' and 'precise' work better.And that's very much what I see these days. (Of course, most of the classes I see now are done by the likes of Amir, so...)

[David Bailey]

Completely the opposite in London, from what I've seen - you used to hear "strong lead" 5 years ago
And 15 years ago, come to that - Mike Ellard used to emphasize this quite a lot.


And that's very much what I see these days. (Of course, most of the classes I see now are done by the likes of Amir, so...)
Yeah, we're probably totally the wrong people to ask what the general trend is for teaching in Ceroc classes, as we tend to select our teachers.

Kicca talks about clarity if that helps? :innocent:

[Lou]

Completely the opposite in London, from what I've seen - you used to hear "strong lead" 5 years ago, but not nearly so much now. (You still hear "firm lead" which I also don't like, but it's better than strong)....
And that's very much what I see these days. (Of course, most of the classes I see now are done by the likes of Amir, so...)

Definitely depends on the teacher. There are still plenty in the London area who use words like "Pull the lady into your side", "Push down hard with your hand to spin...", etc. This choice of words still encourages overly strong leading, IMO.

[Astro]

Definitely depends on the teacher. There are still plenty in the London area who use words like "Pull the lady into your side", "Push down hard with your hand to spin...", etc. This choice of words still encourages overly strong leading, IMO.

In his online newsletter Howard Temple, teacher at Ealing, London, advises dancers to only do drops and seducers with people you know. Now that's progress.

[David Bailey]

Definitely depends on the teacher. There are still plenty in the London area who use words like "Pull the lady into your side", "Push down hard with your hand to spin...", etc. This choice of words still encourages overly strong leading, IMO.
Hmmm... So what alternative wordage would you use to "push" when teaching - for example - the push-spin?

I'm actually not worried so much about "push", it's "pull" that's dangerous to me. Let's face it, followers can always dampen a push using standard spaghetti-arm technique, but pulling is more dangerous because arms don't stretch :)

[TheTramp]

Hmmm... So what alternative wordage would you use to "push" when teaching - for example - the push-spin?

I'm actually not worried so much about "push", it's "pull" that's dangerous to me. Let's face it, followers can always dampen a push using standard spaghetti-arm technique, but pulling is more dangerous because arms don't stretch :)

I try to use 'lead' or 'guide' or 'invite' whenever I can. Though, occasionally 'pull' does come out by accident :blush:

[David Bailey]

I try to use 'lead' or 'guide' or 'invite' whenever I can. Though, occasionally 'pull' does come out by accident :blush:
Yes, accidental pulling is a curse innit. :wink:

[Lou]

Hmmm... So what alternative wordage would you use to "push" when teaching - for example - the push-spin?

I wouldn't - it was the "hard" bit I don't like. :whistle: I noticed a lot when I first started going to classes in London. Maybe they don't use such strong language in Bristol...

I like Trampy's wording. :D Very elegant, mate.

[MartinHarper]

There seems to be a trend (only over the last year I would say) of teachers emphisising the forcefullness of leading rather than the precision: lots of words and actions and encouragement to get the leads to physically drag their partners into line and move them where/when desired.

A number of beginner leads start off being gentle to the point of not leading. Certainly that was a flaw of mine when I started. So emphasising force is probably a good idea at that level. By contrast, while there are some folks who use excessive force, they tend to be an exception rather than a norm. I think it's better to deal with them on a one-to-one basis. A bit of unsolicited feedback works wonders.

(if you think I'm using too much force, I encourage you to tell me)

[Astro]

(if you think I'm using too much force, I encourage you to tell me)

May the force be with you.

sorry, couldn't resist.:innocent:

[Magic Hans]

A number of beginner leads start off being gentle to the point of not leading. Certainly that was a flaw of mine when I started. So emphasising force is probably a good idea at that level. By contrast, while there are some folks who use excessive force, they tend to be an exception rather than a norm. I think it's better to deal with them on a one-to-one basis. A bit of unsolicited feedback works wonders.

(if you think I'm using too much force, I encourage you to tell me)

I'm sorry, but I whole heartedly, and vehemently disagree!!!!

What's the danger with too little force/pressure? The lead might feel a little unsure or jelly-like - not a great dance experience.

Too much is, on the other hand, potentially a health and safety issue. Immediate and painful physical damage can ensue, or else, with repetitive moves, an early onset of arthritis, due to the constant jarring of joints. Either of which, I would wish on noone.

Far safer, in my opinion, to err on the side of physical safety on this point.

[ducasi]

I'm sorry, but I whole heartedly, and vehemently disagree!!!!
I actually think you're actually whole heartedly, and vehemently agreeing. :)

[MartinHarper]

What's the danger with too little force/pressure? The lead might feel a little unsure or jelly-like - not a great dance experience.

Pretty much, though some are worse than that. These people are in a dance class to become better at dancing, so the teacher should help them to become better at dancing by giving appropriate advice. This means using simple words like "pull" rather than sophisticated concepts like "invite".


Too much is, on the other hand, potentially a health and safety issue. Immediate and painful physical damage can ensue, or else, with repetitive moves, an early onset of arthritis, due to the constant jarring of joints. Either of which, I would wish on noone.

I agree with that. However, the number of leaders who are forceful enough to cause serious damage is extremely low, frequently zero. Therefore it is better for the teacher to help these leaders in a one-to-one basis. If sie tells the entire class to lead more lightly, then that will be inappropriate advice for 99% of the class, and the 1% to whom it applies will probably ignore hir. It is also good, as I mentioned, for followers to provide unsolicited negative feedback.

[David Franklin]

I agree with that. However, the number of leaders who are forceful enough to cause serious damage is extremely low, frequently zero. Therefore it is better for the teacher to help these leaders in a one-to-one basis. If sie tells the entire class to lead more lightly, then that will be inappropriate advice for 99% of the class, and the 1% to whom it applies will probably ignore hir. It is also good, as I mentioned, for followers to provide unsolicited negative feedback.Do you have any basis for you 99:1 ratio? I would have said the correct ratio was something like 1:9 the other way - I think the vast majority of leads use too much force. Certainly it's a common complaint amongst the high-level follows I know, while I very rarely hear complaints about a lead not using enough force.

[Raul]

Certainly it's a common complaint amongst the high-level follows I know, while I very rarely hear complaints about a lead not using enough force.

:yeah:

Very true. Good followers see the lead more as an indication of what to do than an energy source to help them execute the move. With good followers you can lead with no force at all and minimal contact if you wish.

Many followers cannot keep their balance, cannot turn or spin on the spot and need some cooperation to start and execute the move. Even then, imo a leader's job is to coordinate his actions to match the follower's in doing something smoothly and not to force her to do the move as it is supposed to be done and on time.

[Whitebeard]

This means using simple words like "pull" rather than sophisticated concepts like "invite".

OK, so lets use simple pronouns like 'his' or 'her' rather than artificial constructs that seek to blur the sexual divide. Most of us are one or the other and would not wish it otherwise.




It is also good, as I mentioned, for followers to provide unsolicited negative feedback.

....... Fair enough; but my impaired hearing is concentrating on the music and your bleating words do not register.

[Whitebeard]

Very true. Good followers see the lead more as an indication of what to do than an energy source to help them execute the move. With good followers you can lead with no force at all and minimal contact if you wish.



Yes, I can agree with that.

I do not look upon followers as advanced or experienced; merely as as followers, good or better.

[MartinHarper]

Do you have any basis for you 99:1 ratio?

Just my limited experience following in beginner classes and talking to others who do likewise. I should have made clear that I'm talking about beginners of <12 weeks, though. At higher levels, the proportions are probably different, as you say.

High-level followers do tend to prefer lighter leads, but that's preference, not health and safety. Beginner leads first need to learn to dance well with beginners and intermediates. Dancing well with advanced follows can be deferred for a few months, I believe.

This suggests simpler language in beginner classes, with more nuanced terms like "indicate" used more at intermediate level.


OK, so lets use simple pronouns like 'his' or 'her' rather than artificial constructs that seek to blur the sexual divide.

Nah, I'm happy with my choice of language in that post. We've discussed this before.

[David Bailey]

Do you have any basis for you 99:1 ratio? I would have said the correct ratio was something like 1:9 the other way - I think the vast majority of leads use too much force. Certainly it's a common complaint amongst the high-level follows I know, while I very rarely hear complaints about a lead not using enough force.
Martin was talking about beginners though wasn't he?

And it's an interesting point - that teachers should use oversimplistic terms, just to get the point across initially. And, of course, to encourage beginners to return and maximise the retention rate.

On the other hand, I'd say that teaching bad habits early on makes it 10 times more difficult to correct those habits, than it does if you're teaching good habits to start with.

[Magic Hans]

...Many followers cannot keep their balance, cannot turn or spin on the spot and need some cooperation to start and execute the move. Even then, imo a leader's job is to coordinate his actions to match the follower's in doing something smoothly and not to force her to do the move as it is supposed to be done and on time.

Very true. And there is for converse for follows, that some can often insist in leaning back on every step back, rather than relying on their own sense of balance (ok for things like the catapult).

The few times that I've tried dancing with someone who has done no modern jive (for 5 years plus), they do seem to go into some manner of 'Alton Towers' mode, treating it like some sort of fairground ride, to go as quick as poss in a circle!

... not my idea of fun! :(

[Raul]

The few times that I've tried dancing with someone who has done no modern jive (for 5 years plus), they do seem to go into some manner of 'Alton Towers' mode, treating it like some sort of fairground ride, to go as quick as poss in a circle!

... not my idea of fun! :(

Some energetic followers do that, even if they have been dancing for a few years - this running around you thing. I think that it is their secret way of getting their dancing and jogging done in one go and they do not even have to carry a walkman or avoid stepping on dogs' doo doo.

Slightly off thread. Why does the circling bit always go clockwise around the leader and not anticlockwise? "ballroom hold"? more moves towards the right of the leader than the left? shouldn't be like that given the openhold way that MJ is taught.

[TA Guy]

The few times that I've tried dancing with someone who has done no modern jive (for 5 years plus), they do seem to go into some manner of 'Alton Towers' mode, treating it like some sort of fairground ride, to go as quick as poss in a circle!

... not my idea of fun! :(


Some energetic followers do that, even if they have been dancing for a few years - this running around you thing. I think that it is their secret way of getting their dancing and jogging done in one go and they do not even have to carry a walkman or avoid stepping on dogs' doo doo.


You guys have just slowed down a bit. Your getting old. That's all :)

[David Franklin]

Martin was talking about beginners though wasn't he?I suppose the argument would be that beginners need more force. But I would suggest the only reason beginners need more force is because they are used to leaders who yank them around. As long as I can get a beginner to stop forcefully anticipating and/or using me as a support pole, I find it doesn't really take much more force than with a more experienced follow.

[David Franklin]

Slightly off thread. Why does the circling bit always go clockwise around the leader and not anticlockwise? "ballroom hold"? more moves towards the right of the leader than the left? shouldn't be like that given the openhold way that MJ is taught.Because 99% of the time, MJ moves that exchange places lead the follow to pass the leader on his right hand side. Which is clockwise, at least from the leader's perspective.

[Raul]

As long as I can get a beginner to stop forcefully anticipating and/or using me as a support pole, I find it doesn't really take much more force than with a more experienced follow.

The way you dance, as per your avatar, you would not need any more force even if they had both legs and arms in plaster.

[MartinHarper]

I suppose the argument would be that beginners need more force.

It's more that advanced followers need less force, and that beginner leads sometimes use no force. Advanced followers can follow well based on spooky-action-at-a-distance emotional connection and suchlike. Mere mortals require something more concrete.

[David Bailey]

Slightly off thread. Why does the circling bit always go clockwise around the leader and not anticlockwise? "ballroom hold"? more moves towards the right of the leader than the left? shouldn't be like that given the openhold way that MJ is taught.
Apart from the reason DavidF gave, it's also because followers are often lazy on their returns (natural turns). They tend to end up a little bit further to the leader-s right at the end, rather than returning to the same spot.

I'm not sure that clockwise rotation is "natural" in all partner dancing - in AT anti-clockwise feels easier to me, as I can open out more to my left. On the other hand, Cuban salsa is most definitely clockwise...

[stairman]

I have found beginners of less then two weeks follow what ever I lead well and sometimes what I have lead badly, then as they progress through the classes they start anticipating or back leading and sometimes using my arms as a stop as to how far back they step

[David Bailey]

I have found beginners of less then two weeks follow what ever I lead well and sometimes what I have lead badly, then as they progress through the classes they start anticipating or back leading and sometimes using my arms as a stop as to how far back they step
:yeah:
Not exactly a massive endorsement of the Ceroc / MJ teaching methods, is it... :rolleyes:

[JCB]

When I first started, it was the dancers who stayed on for the intermediate class that I had the most difficulty feeling the lead with (my fault). Only about 2 or 3 out of every 10 of the newbies had too light a touch for my less than subtle following skills. Now that I am a little less like a JCB (although I still regularly "overreact," turning a yo-yo into a hatchback, or a direction change into a spin :blush:, or stand looking perplexed when I missed a cue to wrap in :blush:) I feel most newbies (more than half) have a tendency to use too much force, but more importantly, to move too abruptly. The force should build up, so it doesn't feel like a shove, more like gentle impulsion, (I admit, it may need to build up a bit more, until we less delicate flowers take the hint. :flower:).
I am guessing it is because the leader has to think before each move, (unlike those of us who have been requested to park our brains by the door:D, ) and that takes a long time at the beginning of the learning curve, so they are worried about being left behind the count. Or they are behind the count, and are trying to catch up. Any of you guys remember back that far? :confused:

[TA Guy]

I seem to remember in my very early days, more or less treating the moves as a joint effort in moving :) That is, I moved my arms and feet and expected my lady to move her arms and feet in the prescribed move without tooooooooo much lead from me. I do seem to remember making some effort to guide the lady if she faltered (and I had the faintest idea what I was doing), but I guess basically, I fell into the "it happens by magic" category :)

Most of this stuff tho, connection, lead and follow, a whole heap of stuff, develops alongside increasing confidence as it's knocked into shape freestyling. It's almost like throwing someone in the deep end to swim. "No, we ain't gonna teach you anything but the utter basics, now go out and dance!". Seems to work and more amazingly, the retention rate seems not 'arf bad. Maybe it's something to do with the glow of working it all out for yourself :)

[Gadget]

I think that the better followers have more of an idea of what they should be doing, and so can compensate for a lot of the lead's flaws... but this same skill is also used to follow progresivly lighter leads; ie the better the follower, the better they can follow poorer leads and lighter leads.

Personally when taking a novice who says "I don't know what I'm doing" onto the floor, my line is "Don't worry - just go where you're shoved :D"... and some of them do actually require shoving to put them where I intend :sick: I have had comments form beginner followers along the lines of being gratefull that my partner has a lead who can keep them in line.
I try to keep the direction and 'force' of my lead quite light, but what I find with beginner and novice followers is that they are trying to move my hand - most of the "strength" in my lead is directed at keeping my hand moving in the direction I intend at the speed I intend. I'm not dragging my partner or shoving them about; I'm just keeping them on the path I intend... or trying to at least ;)

With a good follower, there is very little deviation in where I move my hand and where the follower moves; therefore there is very little "strength" involved keeping them in line.

I would say that a good lead alters the force with which they lead to match their partner, but that's not quite true - there is no conceous descision made to increase of decrease the strength of the lead; the further the follow deviates from my lead, then the more force is needed to bring them back in.
But the application of this requires accuracy and precision of knowing where I want my hand to move in the first place; I think that control should be emphisised before power.

[Dreadful Scathe]

Slightly off thread. Why does the circling bit always go clockwise around the leader and not anticlockwise?

If people dance round you in a circle, do you let them do this ? The few times I've had this I've all but stopped moving and led slot like moves until she gets the hint :)

[Raul]

If people dance round you in a circle, do you let them do this ? The few times I've had this I've all but stopped moving and led slot like moves until she gets the hint :)

It is not often that you get excited puppies to dance with and I have done the stopping to move trick and also done moves that go anticlockwise to see how they react. Some of them have so much momentum that if you just tried even a simple turn acw after the routine turn acw/return cw, it would knock them completely off balance - they are are already halfway around you after the routine return cw bit.

Call me lazy, I find it easier to humour them by letting them dance the way they prefer and do moves like the backhander and neckbreak where you have the option of letting them continue around you in their merry way. If you get dizzy just watching they go round, you can let go and walk acw - they find it funny.

btw they hate the columbian, but seem to love catapult/hatchback moves with cw spins at the end - that one move you can do and still keep looking the same way.

[MartinHarper]

I try to keep the direction and 'force' of my lead quite light, but what I find with beginner and novice followers is that they are trying to move my hand - most of the "strength" in my lead is directed at keeping my hand moving in the direction I intend at the speed I intend. I'm not dragging my partner or shoving them about; I'm just keeping them on the path I intend... or trying to at least ;)
With a good follower, there is very little deviation in where I move my hand and where the follower moves; therefore there is very little "strength" involved keeping them in line.

Interesting.
Do folks think this is a good technique to use?


If people dance round you in a circle, do you let them do this?

Yes. The last time I forced a follow to break her circling pattern (and I had to do it every time she stepped back) the result was a truly abysmal dance. I asked her for a dance later that night and let her dance in the way that was natural to her, and it worked much better for me.

[Astro]

I would say that a good lead alters the force with which they lead to match their partner, but that's not quite true - there is no conceous descision made to increase of decrease the strength of the lead;

I thought it was up to the follow to adapt to the lead?

A gentle lead, I give a light follow, a medium lead, a medium follow and an forceful lead - say a fast rock and roll track - stronger tension.

If he's a forceful beginner then I just go all floppy and take small steps to avoid injury.

[timbp]

I thought it was up to the follow to adapt to the lead?

I thought it was a partnership?

[David Bailey]

I thought it was up to the follow to adapt to the lead?
Yes, but the lead should also adapt to the follow.

So, in the "running around" example, I'd adopt a compatible dance style, with lots of walkarounds and things, rather than force my partner into something she simply didn't like. After all, slotted dancing isn't "better", necessarily, than circular-style, it's just a different style.

Getting hung up over the "correct" way to dance MJ is silly, because there isn't a correct way. There's good general technique, of course, but style is individual.

[Dreadful Scathe]

Yes. The last time I forced a follow to break her circling pattern (and I had to do it every time she stepped back) the result was a truly abysmal dance

Oh I agree - where they won't or can't take the hint - i give up. I've only had 1 "memorable" dance where that was the case though.


I thought it was up to the follow to adapt to the lead?


No way! At the very least, its a partnership. Theres usually some sort of common ground, if there isn't then that partner is someone you want to avoid for a while :)

[wigglebum]

Hi all,

I'm not an experienced dancer like some people and I'm not sure what point Im trying to make if any, but this is what I have learnt.

First though, whats the difference between a Strong lead and a firm lead? Ive never really thought about it but after careful thinking isnt the difference just that a strong lead can sometimes hurt your partner and as someone said before throw them off balance?

I know its sometimes not very easy to see if you hurt your partner but deep down doesnt everyone know if they are being too forceful. If a teacher said to me to lead a strong lead I wouldnt pull my partners arm off because they advised me too. I would use my initiative to realise that dancing is meant to be fun rather than wrestling.

Although an extreme example and only a little bit similar I wouldnt throw myself of a cliff if someone told me too. I know afterall thats silly.

-If a follow has a limp lead you might be dead in the water and have to do lots of walking about. Pulling a limp lead looks awful (Sounds dodgy) and most likely they still need to learn tension.

-If a follow has nearly pulled you off balance, my classic a catapult. Then you havent equalled your partners follow so you need to do that to get a better dance.
Its upto us Men to lead the way! :cheers: Drink anyone?

After all of that has anyone found a point to what I was saying? If not, im sorry and forve me for wasting 10 minutes of your life.

lol

Thanks

[David Bailey]

First though, whats the difference between a Strong lead and a firm lead? Ive never really thought about it but after careful thinking isnt the difference just that a strong lead can sometimes hurt your partner and as someone said before throw them off balance?
I think the consensus is that both terms are a bit dodgy, in that they imply use of physical force, which is Bad. "Clear lead" seems to be the preferred alternative, I think.


I know its sometimes not very easy to see if you hurt your partner but deep down doesnt everyone know if they are being too forceful.
No, they really don't - beginner leaders are focussing on leading the moves, they've got very little spare capacity to consider technique, forcefulness, style etc.

[wigglebum]

Maybe I dont understand the way people think.

When I first started 18 months ago regardless of what I was being taught I knew I didnt want to hurt my partner and to my knowledge I never have.

Strange though with the terminology. Strong, firm and clear etc.

I think as an early dancer with basic moves a clear lead is definately the way to go. Although, I used to have many people say how good my lead was because I indicate what I want them to do and let them do it. But a teacher said regardless of what others said that i should be firm.

How about this then.

Beginners move generally all have a clear lead so using firm is probably incorrect. Lets face it, sticking your arm out to the side is quite a good indication that your doing a man spin.

Maybe the firm lead should be used when your being taught or using variations of moves because sometimes the lead isnt clear. I can still remember asking a teacher a lead for a move only to be told "There isnt one, you just do it"

lol

[David Bailey]

Maybe I dont understand the way people think.

When I first started 18 months ago regardless of what I was being taught I knew I didnt want to hurt my partner and to my knowledge I never have.
Well, I don't remember having any conscious desire to hurt people when I started (that came after many years of practice :grin: ) - but then, I also didn't realise it could be a problem, or even that it was possible to hurt people by doing it wrong.


But a teacher said regardless of what others said that i should be firm.
Yeah. I wouldn't necessarily treat a Ceroc teacher's advice on leading technique as being gospel...

And I don't know what "firm" really means - it could refer to a lot of aspects. But it's possible to interpret "firm" as meaning, for example, a tight handgrip - and most people would agree that's generally a Bad Thing. Hence I'd avoid that term, because it's ambiguous.


Maybe the firm lead should be used when your being taught or using variations of moves because sometimes the lead isnt clear.
If your lead's not clear, then you need to work on the lead. I don't mean to sound patronising with that, by the way - but whenever I came across an "unleadable" move, I found that the more I worked on it, the easier it was to lead. So it was always my lead that needed work, rather than the move.

Of course, some moves are more difficult to properly lead than others - e.g. West Manhattan is a real tricky beggar - but extra "firmness" usually doesn't help. Clarity and precision of lead is much more useful.


I can still remember asking a teacher a lead for a move only to be told "There isnt one, you just do it"
Oh ***... :mad: (I'm not mad at you, but at the idiot teacher)

Every move is led. All of them. They have to be - how else can your partner follow - telepathy?

If it's the same teacher who gave you the "firm" advice, then he / she is an idiot, and I'd run away from them right now.

[TA Guy]

as
Yes, but the lead should also adapt to the follow.

So, in the "running around" example, I'd adopt a compatible dance style, with lots of walkarounds and things, rather than force my partner into something she simply didn't like. After all, slotted dancing isn't "better", necessarily, than circular-style, it's just a different style.

Getting hung up over the "correct" way to dance MJ is silly, because there isn't a correct way. There's good general technique, of course, but style is individual.

Thank God. I wrote a post saying this very thing last night and discarded it. I was quite rude! Your's is much better :) Never ceases to amaze me how some peoples own particular style seems to mutate into the way it should be done as written in stone tablets.


Personally, I think a lot of it depends on the experience of the partners.
If it's an experienced lead dancing with an inexperienced follow. I believe the onus is 100% on the experienced lead to adapt.
Yes, maybe there's an element of 'encouraging' a better way, but unless that is agreed verbally, a good lead will try and implement this using subtle pressures and guidance that hopefully over time will accumulate and help, but not go so far that it degrades the dance or ruins the followers enjoyment. It's a matter of degree and just plain forcing a follow to your style seems counterproductive and wrong to me.
IMO this 'adaptation' is part of being a good lead. *shrug* maybe I'm wrong, but I would have thought this was pretty much blindingly obvious.


Partners of equal ability negotiate (or find common ground as said above) :) Tradition does imply some advantage to the leader by the very fact that leading is involved I would guess :)

[wigglebum]

lol

I know its never anyones intention to hurt people but I was always aware of it. Bending arms and twisting wrists etc to me always meant the possibility of someone getting hurt.

2 different people I'm not mentioning names. lol

If Im honest up until this weekend I wasnt particularly bothered what teachers said `strong`,`firm` `clear` I did what I liked. Heres a question relevant to the thread.

From a spectator view watching a couple how do you tell a clear lead and follow?

My partner and I got through to the finals of Britrock but wasnt placed. My partner then went and asked for some feedback. One thing mentioned, not a clear lead follow. I pray it wasnt that bad, after all we got to the finals and my partner did exactly what I wanted. Seems an odd thing to say.

[David Bailey]

From a spectator view watching a couple how do you tell a clear lead and follow?
Hmmm. Tricky one.

By definition, your lead is clear primarilty to your partner, rather than to spectators. But yes, good connection is visible - e.g. Jordan and Tatiana, it's clear that they're connected at all times (I'm not sure if connection is the same as lead-and-follow, necessarily, but they're certainly closely related).

I assume that the only way you can judge lead-and-follow is by inference, in terms of viewing the effects of good vs. bad technique.

But if a judge said that, it's presumably their expert opinion, so it's worth working on your lead technique.

[wigglebum]

But if a judge said that, it's presumably their expert opinion, so it's worth working on your lead technique.


Will do! Cheers :respect:

[Chef]

Will do! Cheers :respect:

I should imagine that the next question forming in your mind would be "how?".

My own personal reccomendations would be (in no particular order)

Learn west coast swing. It is great for connection.

Book a private lesson with Amir for both yourself and your partner (a good lead is useless without a matching follower - you sink or swim as a partnership).

Blindfold your partner and lead her without music. Without visual cues your partner must rely on, and wait for, your physical lead. You get to feel where her weight is and vice versa. Without music you have more latitude to alter the speed both speeding up and slowing down without your partner being able to anticipate from the music and you both learn how to do that together. Do not be afraid to stop and play with the connection and your partners response to it. Without the experimentation you cannot discover new possibilites.


I am learning all the time about connection and lead and follow (as a leader, not understanding the followers needs inhibits your ability to deliver them) and I find them very powerful tools capable of great sublety in expert hands, truly wonderful when you see what an expert can do.

[wigglebum]

That all sounds pretty good. I have always wanted to learn WCS.

I have a battle sometimes anyway. My partner is a great partner but her timing can sometimes be awful and she relies on me to keep her on the beat. Cant wait to get the Britrock DVD. We had some dodgy dances together lol

[ducasi]

[...] Lets face it, sticking your arm out to the side is quite a good indication that your doing a man spin.

Maybe the firm lead should be used when your being taught or using variations of moves because sometimes the lead isnt clear. I can still remember asking a teacher a lead for a move only to be told "There isnt one, you just do it"
Your man-spin example and what the teacher said suggests to me there may be a confusion between a lead and a signal.

The "sticking your arm out to the side" bit of the man-spin is signal.

Most moves don't have a signal - you just lead it.

[wigglebum]

Your man-spin example and what the teacher said suggests to me there may be a confusion between a lead and a signal.

The "sticking your arm out to the side" bit of the man-spin is signal.

Most moves don't have a signal - you just lead it.

Very true, bad example. lol

I think i wont say anything in future, just because I might show how daft I am! lol

[Chef]

Very true, bad example. lol

I think i wont say anything in future, just because I might show how daft I am! lol

The only daft question is one that you already know the answer to - although you could be trying to find other peoples opinions so that you can consider them.

You ask away. The daft person is the one that doesn't ask and so remains daft.

There will always be lots of different opinions on this forum and somewhere amongst all the opinions you may find something that works for you.

[ducasi]

I think i wont say anything in future, just because I might show how daft I am! lol
Confused ain't the same as daft – you'd be daft if you want to remain confused though. ;)

[Gadget]

When I first started 18 months ago regardless of what I was being taught I knew I didnt want to hurt my partner and to my knowledge I never have.I doubt you thought "as long as it dosn't hurt my partner": normally not hurting someone is taken as read. It only is really thought about when someone says "ouch" or mentions the possability.

In saying that, it is rule No. 1 in MJ... and that's about it for rules everyone agrees on. :D


Beginners move generally all have a clear lead so using firm is probably incorrect. Lets face it, sticking your arm out to the side is quite a good indication that your doing a man spin.
I take it you are meaning that all the beginner moves have a fairly simple lead and that using force to accoumplish the movement is therefore not required. If so, I think that the only reason that beginner moves are thought on as having simple leads is due to the practice and repetition involved: the same reasoning for not requiring a forcefull lead could be applied to all moves.

{PS :wink: The lead for a man-spin is getting the follower to step forward and using your body to rotate them to face you again... the arm is an (unnecessary) signal :na::wink:}


Maybe the firm lead should be used when your being taught or using variations of moves because sometimes the lead isnt clear. I can still remember asking a teacher a lead for a move only to be told "There isnt one, you just do it"
There may not have actually been a lead to that bit of the move: a lead is only conveying information to your partner... a lot of the time when I have diffuculty with something I have found that it's not my actual lead being at fault, but my own position/movement and pre-cursor to the lead :sick:

... of course the teacher could have been wrong too :whistle:


Never ceases to amaze me how some peoples own particular style seems to mutate into the way it should be done as written in stone tablets."Style" is everything that does not convey information to your partner. Or more commonly, confuses the information given to your partner. Especially "footwork" :na:
{It's amazing how some peoples own particular footwork seems to mutate into...}


Personally, I think a lot of it depends on the experience of the partners.
If it's an experienced lead dancing with an inexperienced follow. I believe the onus is 100% on the experienced lead to adapt.
Personally I don't think this is true for inexperienced follows, but for every follow, no matter the experiance.

[spindr]

"Strong lead" generally means that the teacher doesn't understand the lead/follow requirements for a particular move -- but has found that with enough ooomph they can get to the end relatively successfully.

Last week, did the same movement in two different classes (one salsa, one jive) -- basically, rotating the follower on the spot out of a "barrier" position. The salsa teacher spent 10-15 mins explaining how followers should dance the rotation, etc., etc. and that leaders should use a nice clear lead -- the jive teacher just said words to the effect of "Alright lads, give it a bit of welly and the lady will get round".

SpinDr

[Andy McGregor]

A while ago I set my class what I called the handsfree challenge. I explained that the guys had to lead the lady by miming the moves and the lady had to keep her hand near they guys and follow the move he was leading. Almost everybody got it. The connection was a visual one rather than a physical one and people seemed to get a much clearer idea of the way the lead works.

Although it can't be taken literally, I tell the lady that she should offer the guy the weight of her hand, not the weight of her body. I tell the guys that they should lead the lady's hand and the rest of the lady will follow.

In workshops I tell the guys to put their hand on top of the lady's hand, just touching. The objective for the lady is to keep their hand in touch with the guy's - that also works really well at producing a feel for indication leads rather than strength leads that compel the lady to move into a position.

[Andy McGregor]

"Alright lads, give it a bit of welly and the lady will get round".

SpinDrAt a class I visited recently the teacher said "shove the lady out and then drag her back in again" :eek:

[wigglebum]

lol, I would definately ignore my ceroc spin example. Completely incorrect.

Do I dare give another example! lol

How about a sway. I assume a clear lead would be a slight pull and twist of the wrist. If someone said a strong or firm lead. I wouldnt pull and twist the wrist hard because I know it would hurt. But I dont stop for a few seconds and think "Wait a sec....... This might hurt"

Oddly enough though have seen men nearly pull and snap an arm off.

It seems to me I dont know when to shut up. lol

[David Bailey]

Your man-spin example and what the teacher said suggests to me there may be a confusion between a lead and a signal.

The "sticking your arm out to the side" bit of the man-spin is signal.

Most moves don't have a signal - you just lead it.
Hmmm.... there's a fairly detailed discussion of the differences between lead and signal on the MJDA forum (here (http://www.mjda.org/forum/showthread.php?t=456)) - warning, it gets quite complex.

Basically, I think it boils down to "it's not that simple" :grin:

[David Bailey]

How about a sway. I assume a clear lead would be a slight pull and twist of the wrist.
Yeah, sort of... it depends on the context really. It's extremely difficult to discuss this stuff in writing, because it depends on what you mean by "slight"...


Oddly enough though have seen men nearly pull and snap an arm off.
Sways can be iffy - and not just on the lead. When you think about it, you've still got your partner's arm (wrist) twisted, when you're actually in the sway position. Amir pointed that out a while back, and I've been trying to consider non-twisty alternative ways of doing a sway since then.

Hell, any move that twists your partner's arm can be iffy.


It seems to me I dont know when to shut up. lol
Nope, these are all good questions, keep 'em coming.

[Twirlie Bird]

When I first started dancing I used to dance with two very different leads. One had a finger tip touch type lead and the other was very forceful. I got on really well with the forceful one. I knew where I was meant to be going and when I was meant to go. The far lighter lead was a nightmare for me. I just couldn't follow him. I had no idea about the flow of the moves so didn't know where he was expecting me to end up.:sick:

However now I am more experienced the complete opposite applies. I love dancing with the lighter lead. It gives me freedom to express myself and now I understand the moves better I know where I'm expected to end up and I usually get there when I'm meant to be there. :D The stronger lead is now awful for me to dance with. I find him very yanky and there is no space for me to have any freedom. :tears:

[Astro]

No way! At the very least, its a partnership. Theres usually some sort of common ground, if there isn't then that partner is someone you want to avoid for a while :)

I didn't know that. Thanks for telling me.


as

Thank God. I wrote a post saying this very thing last night and discarded it. I was quite rude! What was the gist of it TA Guy? I just had a feeling that post was going to come back and bite me on the bum.
Your's is much better :) Never ceases to amaze me how some peoples own particular style seems to mutate into the way it should be done as written in stone tablets.

In my defence I wish to state that as a beginner I was told and told, that I was too floppy.....still too floppy......still too floppy.

Then I over compensated and applied so much resistance I wrenched my left shoulder.

So I'm never quite sure if I'm giving enough resistance and I tend to err on the side of caution. If the lead was matching me, then we possibly would lack enough resistance to do more than basic moves.

That's what I was worried about in my post, I thought if I match the lead, I can't go wrong.



Partners of equal ability negotiate (or find common ground as said above) :) Tradition does imply some advantage to the leader by the very fact that leading is involved I would guess :)

[TA Guy]

What was the gist of it TA Guy? I just had a feeling that post was going to come back and bite me on the bum.


Actually... it was other posts that was the inspiration :)



In my defence I wish to state that as a beginner I was told and told, that I was too floppy.....still too floppy......still too floppy.

Then I over compensated and applied so much resistance I wrenched my left shoulder.

So I'm never quite sure if I'm giving enough resistance and I tend to err on the side of caution. If the lead was matching me, then we possibly would lack enough resistance to do more than basic moves.

That's what I was worried about in my post, I thought if I match the lead, I can't go wrong.

OK, I'm not an expert on this, my knowledge comes from experience (often misleading) :)

When a leader and follower come together, I guess they will both have their own ideas about how much tension should be in the connection. Obviously, too much tension or too little tension is bad, but generally I think it is considered 'a good thing' if the tension matches as close as possible. Most experienced dancers will adjust to this without thinking about it within certain limits. So tension, even for the same dancer, can vary a bit.

I forget what it's called, but there is supposed to be some balanced point in the center of a couple that's closely related to this. So the leader has a center of balance, the follower has a center of balance, but the pair as a couple also has a center of balance.

To the best of my knowledge tho, there is no way to describe exactly how much tension there should be in words. The only way to find that optimal tension is to dance with good dancers and copy them :) I'm always copying people better than me, or trying to anyway :)

Might be worth searching the forum for 'connection exercises'. Some of those are relevant to tension and I think some have been described on here....

[Gadget]

How about a sway. I assume a clear lead would be a slight pull and twist of the wrist. If someone said a strong or firm lead. I wouldnt pull and twist the wrist hard because I know it would hurt. But I dont stop for a few seconds and think "Wait a sec....... This might hurt"

Oddly enough though have seen men nearly pull and snap an arm off.
I don't think that I twist anything leading a sway:confused: The main problem that occurs with a sway is that the lead tries to get the follower to do all the work and dosn't step in to collect them.
The initial lead is to get the follower to step forward and put all their weight on the front foot, then the hand is swept round their waist to collect them in as the lead steps up to them... normally my connection changes from on the inside of the follower's fingers (leading them in), rolling round to the top of the index finger (starting the rotation), to resting my hand on top of theirs (finishing). Most of my connection is now from the hip and arm all down the follower's back: any lead will now initiate from these connection points and continue.

But to the point :wink: if someone said "strong lead" on this move, what would you take it to mean? the lead pulling the follower in quickly and taking their hand way out to the side?

I think that a lot of what people think on as "Strong" leads are leads ahead of the follower, dragging them wherever before they have a chance to move themselves. Do you think on dragging the hand of a child as hurting them? Why should you think on dragging the hand of an adult would? Couldn't you drag them with more force because they are bigger?


It seems to me I dont know when to shut up. lol:D common problem :wink: ...not that I suffer from it my self :whistle::innocent:

[David Franklin]

It seems to me I dont know when to shut up. lol
:D common problem :wink: ...not that I suffer from it my self :whistle::innocent:True enough. It's the rest of us who have to suffer... :devil:

[To be taken in the spirit of the "putdown thread" - we love you really, Gadget!]

[MartinHarper]

If a follow has nearly pulled you off balance, my classic a catapult. Then you havent equalled your partners follow so you need to do that to get a better dance.

Matching my partner's force is good. I also need to move in response to exerted forces. If I attempt to match my partner's force whilst holding my ground, then strains and stresses can become a problem, over the course of many dances. This is the same technique that allows follows to dance with very strong leaders without getting so much as a bruise.


Every move is led. All of them.

However, sometimes "just doing it" is how to lead the move. Here's an example of where I think "you just do it" (or words to that effect) is a legitimate explanation by a teacher of how to lead it. Around 2:00-2:30. Lindy, I'm afraid.

Doug Silton - outside turn deceleration (http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-7305124153536530990)


From a spectator view watching a couple how do you tell a clear lead and follow?

Good question. For me, I'd say the lead and follow is demonstrated most clearly when everything the follower does appears to be precisely determined by what the leader does, rather than by script or habit or prearranged signal.

[David Bailey]

Good question. For me, I'd say the lead and follow is demonstrated most clearly when everything the follower does appears to be precisely determined by what the leader does, rather than by script or habit or prearranged signal.
The tricky bit is trying to spot good lead-and-follow in a choreographed routine.

Re: TA Guy's points about "centres of balance" - I wonder if circular dancing should use a shared centre - I guess that's best discussed on the slotted / circular thread...

[Tessalicious]

When I first started dancing I used to dance with two very different leads. One had a finger tip touch type lead and the other was very forceful. I got on really well with the forceful one. I knew where I was meant to be going and when I was meant to go. The far lighter lead was a nightmare for me. I just couldn't follow him. I had no idea about the flow of the moves so didn't know where he was expecting me to end up.:sick:

However now I am more experienced the complete opposite applies. I love dancing with the lighter lead. It gives me freedom to express myself and now I understand the moves better I know where I'm expected to end up and I usually get there when I'm meant to be there. :D The stronger lead is now awful for me to dance with. I find him very yanky and there is no space for me to have any freedom. :tears:This is so true, and speaks volumes to me about the motivations behind different men's leads too.

From this I'd be willing to bet, if I didn't already know the answer, that the guys with light leads are the ones that enjoy being popular with the experienced followers, while the ones with strong leads are the ones that want to dance with less experienced women.

The cynical part of me wants to say that the reason for this might be that this type of guy is after as many different and new women as possible for only one thing at dancing (and that's not the dancing), but I'm sure that's completely unreasonable of me.

[Astro]

This is so true, and speaks volumes to me about the motivations behind different men's leads too.

From this I'd be willing to bet, if I didn't already know the answer, that the guys with light leads are the ones that enjoy being popular with the experienced followers, while the ones with strong leads are the ones that want to dance with less experienced women.

The cynical part of me wants to say that the reason for this might be that this type of guy is after as many different and new women as possible for only one thing at dancing (and that's not the dancing), but I'm sure that's completely unreasonable of me.

There is a certain element that make a bee line for new beginner follows, especially if they are young and pretty.

[robd]

There is a certain element that make a bee line for new beginner follows, especially if they are young and pretty.

Yes, it's called 'The male' and millions of years of biological programming can be pretty hard to ignore :rolleyes:

[Twirlie Bird]

From this I'd be willing to bet, if I didn't already know the answer, that the guys with light leads are the ones that enjoy being popular with the experienced followers, while the ones with strong leads are the ones that want to dance with less experienced women.

:yeah:


The cynical part of me wants to say that the reason for this might be that this type of guy is after as many different and new women as possible for only one thing at dancing (and that's not the dancing), but I'm sure that's completely unreasonable of me.

:yeah:

Unreasonable of you? Nope. I had never thought of it like that before. Now though I can see it's exactly how you say. Scary I was that naive. :eek:

[David Bailey]

Unreasonable of you? Nope. I had never thought of it like that before. Now though I can see it's exactly how you say. Scary I was that naive. :eek:
Mmmm, because women never go for good-looking men either...

[Tessalicious]

Mmmm, because women never go for good-looking men either...Ahem, I never said anything about being good-looking (ok, Astro did, but only as an aside). My point was more to do with variety :rolleyes: and to some extent vulnerability and power over women who don't know any better :sick:

[robd]

Couple of randomly connected thoughts to throw in



So, in the "running around" example, I'd adopt a compatible dance style, with lots of walkarounds and things, rather than force my partner into something she simply didn't like. After all, slotted dancing isn't "better", necessarily, than circular-style, it's just a different style.


A teacher at a workshop the other day was talking about duck moves ('flatbacks') and how some ladies are resistant to doing them. He said that's fine, follower's perogative, etc but that {paraphrased} 'you've asked me to dance and you know I like flatbacks so they're part of the deal' i.e the onus is more on the asker for the dance to be compatible with the style of the person they have asked. Interesting thinking. Agree? Disagree?

The second thought is the realisation that more experience dancing hasn't necessarily made me a much better leader of the patterns I lead (though I do feel I am improving as I go) but has made me much better at seamlessly adapting if a lead I give isn't followed as intended which can then give the (misleading) impression that the lead and follow between myself & partner is working perfectly as intended.

[Tiggerbabe]

'you've asked me to dance and you know I like flatbacks so they're part of the deal' i.e the onus is more on the asker for the dance to be compatible with the style of the person they have asked. Interesting thinking. Agree? Disagree?
Disagree, unless I know you of old and have seen you dance many times, how will I know that this is your move of choice?

[David Bailey]

A teacher at a workshop the other day was talking about duck moves ('flatbacks') and how some ladies are resistant to doing them. He said that's fine, follower's perogative, etc but that {paraphrased} 'you've asked me to dance and you know I like flatbacks so they're part of the deal' i.e the onus is more on the asker for the dance to be compatible with the style of the person they have asked. Interesting thinking. Agree? Disagree?
Disagree.

Two reasons:

You've got to be a real Move Fascist (and this is me saying it) to impose a move on someone who's clearly expressed a dislike of it, just because you can. And they may have good reasons for their dislike (e.g. bad back and drops).
You're assuming that the follower is familiar enough with the leader's style to make that judgement - this is not usually the case.



The second thought is the realisation that more experience dancing hasn't necessarily made me a much better leader of the patterns I lead (though I do feel I am improving as I go) but has made me much better at seamlessly adapting if a lead I give isn't followed as intended which can then give the (misleading) impression that the lead and follow between myself & partner is working perfectly as intended.
Sounds reasonable.

[MartinHarper]

I'd be willing to bet, if I didn't already know the answer, that the guys with light leads are the ones that enjoy being popular with the experienced followers, while the ones with strong leads are the ones that want to dance with less experienced women.

In other words, the light leads are hotshots, and the strong leads are good social dancers?

Also, am I a light lead or a strong lead? I'm never sure.

[Whitebeard]

In other words, the light leads are hotshots, and the strong leads are good social dancers?

Also, am I a light lead or a strong lead? I'm never sure.

You callin' me a hotshot just because I aspire to a light and delicate lead; which I believe I sometimes achieve in my very move inhibited way !! That's patently rubbish.

I was quite proud of myself tonight as I invited a lady I knew to be a dedicated metranomic hand bouncer to a dance. I worked on isolating my lead from her hand bounce and had a reasonably satisfactory dance.

[robd]

Disagree, unless I know you of old and have seen you dance many times, how will I know that this is your move of choice?

I started writing in my original post about this caveat - that a lot of times dancing MJ socially we may have no idea of a partner's style preferences - and then deleted it in order to see if other people would make that observation. In the case of the teacher in question - Paul Warden - it's unlikely that many of the people who ask him to dance will not be aware of his preferences but I admit that doesn't reflect the wider MJ social scene.




You've got to be a real Move Fascist (and this is me saying it) to impose a move on someone who's clearly expressed a dislike of it, just because you can. And they may have good reasons for their dislike (e.g. bad back and drops).



Ahem, Straitjacket anyone :sick:

Actually, anyone who knows me would know I don't push people through moves they're uncomfortable with - if anything, my dancing is too safe leading to monotony and predictability The teacher in question doesn't AFAIK force people through those moves either. I was just thinking in terms of the original discussion and if I (say) am acknowledged as a generally slotted dancer wouldn't it be the responsibility of a lady that asked me to dance to try and match that slotted style? Granted this assumes that their style of dance (circular or slotted) is a voluntary choice and not a result of their technical limitations.


You callin' me a hotshot just because ... [I described a recent encounter as] .... a reasonably satisfactory dance.

Yes, probably :grin:

[Astro]

I started writing in my original post about this caveat - that a lot of times dancing MJ socially we may have no idea of a partner's style preferences - and then deleted it in order to see if other people would make that observation. In the case of the teacher in question - Paul Warden - it's unlikely that many of the people who ask him to dance will not be aware of his preferences but I admit that doesn't reflect the wider MJ social scene.

Agreed, I hadn't noticed DJ was a slotted dancer.



Actually, anyone who knows me would know I don't push people through moves they're uncomfortable with - if anything, my dancing is too safe leading to monotony and predictability The teacher in question doesn't AFAIK force people through those moves either. I was just thinking in terms of the original discussion and if I (say) am acknowledged as a generally slotted dancer wouldn't it be the responsibility of a lady that asked me to dance to try and match that slotted style? Granted this assumes that their style of dance (circular or slotted) is a voluntary choice and not a result of their technical limitations.



Paul F doesn't give me a choice, I just have to dance slotted, likewise Chef and RK, plus others I can't remember off hand.

Left to my own devises I would dance in circles as it's the way ceroc teaches and I haven't tried any other classes.

Slotted is the father, circular the son?

[David Bailey]

Ahem, Straitjacket anyone :sick:
:grin:
Do what I say, not what I do :whistle:

Actually, the SJ is a good example. I'll hold my hand up and freely admit that when I started doing this move (8+ years ago), my lead was too rough and forceful.

However, now I can lead it on anyone, assuming my ickle arms can reach, without (I hope) causing any problems. Again proving that any move is leadable without discomfort, if well-led.

Although that may not be a consolation to the dozens of women I've crippled during my learning process, but what the hell, you can't make an omelette etc. :innocent:


Agreed, I hadn't noticed DJ was a slotted dancer.
I don't think I am - with the caveat that no-one ever really knows what they dance like of course.

I like slotted. I like circular. It's all good.

[Chef]

Paul F doesn't give me a choice, I just have to dance slotted, likewise Chef and RK, plus others I can't remember off hand.

Left to my own devises I would dance in circles as it's the way ceroc teaches and I haven't tried any other classes.

Slotted is the father, circular the son?

This is not a personal dig at Astro. The quote from her post above is used to put my post in context. If you hate long posts just skip to the next one.

I don't think that I FORCE anyone to dance slotted. I do try to lead my follwers slotted and try to return my followers to the origional slot at the end of a move, if it is still available at that time, or in the direction of available space which could then become the new slot, as I have a hope that the space will continue to remain available between starting the lead of a a move and completing it. I do hope that my partners will dance in a slotted fashion because I am giving a clear and precise invitational lead. Most the time my followers accept that invitation and both seem happy.

I started dancing slotted because I went to a lot of Nigel and Ninas MJ lessons and that was, and still is, the way they taught. WCS was a much later and more formal addition and many things in WCS will only work because of the slotted nature and both partners understanding and acceptance of it.

When I lead a partner towards me at the start of a move I lead her towards my position and I vacate the place that I have lead her towards. Very often I find that follows ignore my lead and automatically step to my right hand side and very often quite a bit past my position. As soon as they do that they have imposed a few things.

The rest of the move must start with the woman on my right hand side. My option to lead a move past my left hand side has been completely negated. This is quite a pity because I know quite a few moves both from MJ and ones from WCS that have been adapted to MJ as well as quite a few ways of hitting breaks in nice-ish poses.

Most of the drops I know have the woman approaching me along the left hand side of my body into the drop and I try to make them fit the music. Once the follower has ignored my lead and gone to my right hand side I can't lead the drop and have to come up with something to fit the accent point in the music which will, hopefully, not look too feeble. Getting my follower to dance slotted retains my option to lead moves on either side, my follower automatically stepping to my right hand side removes a wide range of my options. Most followers are trained to step to the right hand side of the lead automatically because all of the beginner moves and most of the intermediate moves go towards that side. So if the followers are lead into a move by an intermediate there is about a 97% chance it will be to the lead RHS. The other factor is that intermediate leaders make absolutely no space allowance for their approaching follower and remain at their starting position meaning the follower must take avoiding action. I feel that the terms beginner, intermediate, etc is not defined by length of time served but by actions, skills and behaviours, just like getting promoted at work. When you stop making the mistakes that beginners do then you are no longer a beginner. Not accomodating your followers space requirements and ignoring a linear lead to step automatically to your leaders right hand side are behaviours that I feel separate intermediates from those that are no longer intermediates.

If we are no longer aligned on the origonal slot there may not be space to naturally exit the move and I will have to bend the move to find space to exit the move into. While I am trying to work this out I am not paying as much attention to the music or the lead and both the musicality of the dance I can give and the smoothness of the lead I give may suffer while I try to work out space management.


I have only ever seen MJ taught in a slotted fashion. I have been informed in the past on this forum that this is only done for convenience and safety of having a large number of dancers together in a hall and it would be bad if they all kept bumping into each other in lessons. I have not yet been told why these requirements disappear once the freestyle starts with the same number of people in the same hall.

I therefore don't believe that circular is the way that Ceroc teaches. However I can only base that belief on never having seen Ceroc being taught in random orientations for start and end of moves in the past 8 years.

I also don't understand why a follower feels that if they are left to their own devices they will go in a circle around the leader. If I want the follower to orbit around me then I will provide a cirular lead. If I want them to move in a straight line I will lead them in a straight line. Any time that I want a follower to be redirected I need to provide a lead for it otherwise my follower has been put in the position of guessing.


How it looks to me is that MJ is taught as a linear dance, in as much as the start and end positions of moves are known and taught but that it has to deviate from that on a social dance floor because many dancers on social dance floors can't, or choose not to perform the moves in that way because of changing floor space availablity.

I really feel that I am going to regret trying to post anything non humorous on this forum.

[MartinHarper]

I don't think I am - with the caveat that no-one ever really knows what they dance like of course.

I like slotted. I like circular. It's all good.

YouTube - David James and Double Trouble Modern Jive SP June 07 (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=BHjOHe81i2s)

Eh, doesn't look slotted to me.

[TA Guy]

I have only ever seen MJ taught in a slotted fashion. I have been informed in the past on this forum that this is only done for convenience and safety of having a large number of dancers together in a hall and it would be bad if they all kept bumping into each other in lessons. I have not yet been told why these requirements disappear once the freestyle starts with the same number of people in the same hall.


Maybe I can help. This is not the only reason for slotted lessons, but it's part of the organisational aspect of it. I understand that as many people needed to be 'slotted' into as little space as possible to allow as many as possible to get at least a reasonable view of the teacher. Once everybody spreads out in the big wide hall, this no longer applies so those restrictions disappear.
Of course, back in the day, there were no large video screens to help :)

[ducasi]

[...] long post [...]

I started dancing slotted because I went to a lot of Nigel and Ninas MJ lessons and that was, and still is, the way they taught. [...]

[...]

I have only ever seen MJ taught in a slotted fashion. [...]

[...]
Just want to say a big :yeah: to pretty much everything Chef has written here.

The obvious exceptions would be that I haven't been dancing 8 years, and I really couldn't place where I gained my slotted style from.

One thing that I wonder though... If you've only seen MJ taught in a slotted fashion, why did it take going to N&N's lessons to turn you into a slotted dancer? Just curious...

[Chef]

One thing that I wonder though... If you've only seen MJ taught in a slotted fashion, why did it take going to N&N's lessons to turn you into a slotted dancer? Just curious...

Ceroc moves were/are taught slotted, even if they didn't expound it, in as much as the follower starts at a certain place and returns to it at the end of the pattern (except for passing moves) but it was only when going to Nigel and Ninas' classes that I found you could exploit the mans left hand side for moves. It took going to N&Ns lessons to realise what I was doing and the possibilities that it would open up by dancing the same way in freestyle as in the lessons.

All you had to do was lead the follower in a line and then get out of her way and the choice of which way you did so was up to you. You could move one way and she moves past you on your right or move the other way and she passes you on the left, and eithe way was equally easy provided you gave a linear lead and your follower followed it.

Every leader gets bored with the stuff that they do, especially because it never comes as a complete surprise to themselves, and leaders are always looking for something new and tricky to master just to keep their feeling of development and progress going. To realise that I had a whole complete side of my body to lead moves down made me feel suddenly very stupid for not having thought of it before.

[killingtime]

The second thought is the realisation that more experience dancing hasn't necessarily made me a much better leader of the patterns I lead (though I do feel I am improving as I go) but has made me much better at seamlessly adapting if a lead I give isn't followed as intended which can then give the (misleading) impression that the lead and follow between myself & partner is working perfectly as intended.

Totally agree. As a beginner if I messed up I'd probably stop and give that deer in headlights look before saying "sorry" and try and start another move. Since I know a lot more permutations of moves (including breaking them down so you can start half way through) means I can just go on like I meant that to happen all along.


I was quite proud of myself tonight as I invited a lady I knew to be a dedicated metranomic hand bouncer to a dance. I worked on isolating my lead from her hand bounce and had a reasonably satisfactory dance.

I prefer if my partner tells me the dance was adequate, passable or acceptable rather than reasonably satisfactory. Just an FYI.

[Dreadful Scathe]

Ceroc moves were/are taught slotted, even if they didn't expound it, in as much as the follower starts at a certain place and returns to it at the end of the pattern (except for passing moves) but it was only when going to Nigel and Ninas' classes that I found you could exploit the mans left hand side for moves. It took going to N&Ns lessons to realise what I was doing and the possibilities that it would open up by dancing the same way in freestyle as in the lessons.

Its only natural that where most moves have the follower traveling to the right hand side of the leader - people are going to circle clockwise. If a lead is quite a "puller" it will be worse. If a follower is an "anticipator" it will be worse. I'm pretty sure the one time i danced with a really severe circler it was because she'd previously had a dance with a major puller and due to my much lighter lead always came into the right of me on an assumption. I felt like a vulture :) Even trying my best to lead to the left didn't work as her first step was always to her left no matter what...I'm of the opinion if you've got to be "too forceful" its not worth it, so physically dragging is out of the question...just go with it :) Also, with this particular "circle dance" in mind - it was a very fast bounce-bounce "pop" track - what can you do to that ? :)

[TA Guy]

Don't we all exploit the mens left side for moves ? Pretzels and the like ?
I'm just a bog standard MJ dancer having been 'brought up' dancing at many venues and like all in that position, I've danced with many slotted follows, and many rotational follows. I can't say I've ever found it a problem leading left side moves.

I mean, I get what your saying, if a lead is demanding slotted dancing (and therefore positioning accordingly) and a follow is demanding rotational dancing (and therefore positioning accordingly), left side moves are going to be a touch tricky to say the least.

The question becomes, is it right for the lead to insist on a slotted style? Is it right for the follower to insist on a rotational style? Or is the dance a partnership where some kind of solution is worked out? Even if in the worse case, the participants decide never to dance together again :)

The sheer fact of the matter is that there are many rotational dancers out there, and it is a perfectly acceptable style of the dance. It is neither better nor worse than slotted dancing, and while every dancer probably has at least a vague preference, no one can say they are actually dancing the right way compared to the others. Therefore, in my mind, the best dancers accomodate all styles, the same as the best leads try to accomodate all follows (and vice versa of course).


This just came to mind for humourous reasons only!
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly, dance slotted, dance rotationally. Specialization is for insects.


-With profuse apologies to Robert A. Heinlein.

[ducasi]

Ceroc moves were/are taught slotted, even if they didn't expound it, in as much as the follower starts at a certain place and returns to it at the end of the pattern (except for passing moves) but it was only when going to Nigel and Ninas' classes that I found you could exploit the mans left hand side for moves. It took going to N&Ns lessons to realise what I was doing and the possibilities that it would open up by dancing the same way in freestyle as in the lessons.
Yep, that makes sense...

Thinking about it, I think I derived my slotted style firstly based on how we'd been taught, and secondly, as an evolution of the "reverse catapult" that I'd been taught in regular classes.


Don't we all exploit the mens left side for moves ? Pretzels and the like ?
I'm just a bog standard MJ dancer having been 'brought up' dancing at many venues and like all in that position, I've danced with many slotted follows, and many rotational follows. I can't say I've ever found it a problem leading left side moves.
It's telling that the pretzel is taught with a clear signal – waving your hand behind your back – to get your follower to step to your left. It's even more telling that most of the regular Ceroc-taught moves where the lady needs to step to your left incorporate the pretzel signal.

[Dreadful Scathe]

Don't we all exploit the mens left side for moves ? Pretzels and the like ?

I imagine so.


I can't say I've ever found it a problem leading left side moves.

I only have 1 example of it being a problem. I'm saying that the reason some are inclined to circle is due to a lot of moves being led to the right hand side and the leader leading from his right hand to create an initial pull in that direction. So while you say "rotational dancing" is perfectly valid - I don't think I've ever seen an MJ class where this is taught - it just happens for the reasons i mentioned. For experienced dancers, its really not noticeable at all "as a problem" but will obviously happen when people want to do moves that happen to go in a circle - iyswim :) Any dance does require you to move about a bit after all.



The question becomes, is it right for the lead to insist on a slotted style? Is it right for the follower to insist on a rotational style? Or is the dance a partnership where some kind of solution is worked out?

I think its right for the leader to expect to be leading - everything else is irrelevant :)

[killingtime]

It's telling that the pretzel is taught with a clear signal – waving your hand behind your back – to get your follower to step to your left. It's even more telling that most of the regular Ceroc-taught moves where the lady needs to step to your left incorporate the pretzel signal.

Indeed. Since I always actually lead a false or almost pretzel I've questioned why I use that signal (like a carrot to snatch away) and beyond taunting my follower I couldn't think of a good reason so I dropped it as a signal (though I'm so conditioned myself I still offer it quite a bit of the time). Most followers can still be lead past my left though I still have issues with some (though there is a fairly clear visual lead for the left side in a pretzel like position anyway).

I agree that most followers, in my experience, will move to the right automatically.

[TA Guy]

It's telling that the pretzel is taught with a clear signal – waving your hand behind your back – to get your follower to step to your left. It's even more telling that most of the regular Ceroc-taught moves where the lady needs to step to your left incorporate the pretzel signal.

Heh, yeah, I almost put something along the lines of 'Now we know why the Pretzel has a signal!!!'.

It does kinda indicate that maybe, just maybe the Pretzel family of moves was designed with rotational dance in mind. Maybe :)
But there are other left side moves tho, I'm afraid I'm not good at move names, but I can think of two others and one left side blocking move just off the top of my head that are popular intermediate class moves. It's not like the left side is completely ignored.

[TA Guy]

I think its right for the leader to expect to be leading - everything else is irrelevant :)

Perfectly valid viewpoint.

But most on here describe their lead as 'invitational'. Then it becomes more complicated since it's a bit rich to say your lead is invitational, and then insist it must be obeyed. 'Invitation' by definition says it's perfectly acceptable to refuse.

If you accept that, the original point still stands.

[Dreadful Scathe]

But most on here describe their lead as 'invitational'. Then it becomes more complicated since it's a bit rich to say your lead is invitational, and then insist it must be obeyed.

Certainly true. I would see an automatic circular movement as an assumption rather than a lead though - do people try to lead in a circle and turn to face their partner to continue this circle ? I generally don't see this.

[Chef]

But most on here describe their lead as 'invitational'. Then it becomes more complicated since it's a bit rich to say your lead is invitational, and then insist it must be obeyed. 'Invitation' by definition says it's perfectly acceptable to refuse.

If you accept that, the original point still stands.

Here are my ideas about what I would think of as an invitational lead, FWIW.

I think of an invitational lead as being able indicate clear direction to a connected follower that doesn't go to the point of pulling the follower off balance. If I exceeded this and pulled or pushed the follower off balance then she then would have no choice but to move in that direction as she attempted to stop herself falling over. The dance for the follower might then become, in the words of Buzz Lightyear, "falling with style".

So you can't insist your lead is obeyed but you do wonder why someone asks you to lead them and then continually ignores the lead you provide.

If I led a follower into a dip or a lean there would be a point where I would be inviting the follower to go into that dip or lean. If the follower gives me some of her weight I would take that as an acceptance of my invitation and I would continue with the move. If she does not give me some of her weight I have no right to force her off balance and into the drop.

In an open hold lead if I provide an invitational lead to the connection and the follower chooses not to accept it she can always release the connection by discontinuing muslce tone in her arm.

I think of connection and lead in the following terms. The connection is like a phone line that has a dialing tone on it to indicate the connection is active and the lead is the information that is transmitted back and forth along the connection. The connection is always present to allow lead to be trasmitted even if you choose to transmit no lead at a given time. So if either party decides to drop the connection then no transmission of lead is possible.

So if I provide an invitational lead to a follower and she chooses not to accept it by disconnecting the connection and then going somewhere else I have to think of something else to do, how to fit it into the music, how it will avoid other people and objects, and how to provide a lead for it - within two beats of music. Generally I can do all that within two beats of music but if I have to do that for every two beats of music I start wondering what exactly my utility for this follower is.

[Astro]

Left to my own devises I would dance in circles as it's the way ceroc teaches and I haven't tried any other classes.


Just wanted to point out, in case anyone thinks I'm a liar, that I have attended various free taster classes on Jango, WCS, rumba and waltz, UPC, Cuban Blues, and Latin flavour.

However, I have never paid money and attended ANY workshop. This is due to not being able to hear the teachers, due to my deafness.

Amir has said though, that dancers can learn better using their eyes and watching the teacher, better than listening to the teacher.

I think he meant because vision and dancing share the same side of the brain (either left or right) and listening is more logical on the other side of the brain.

[Astro]

However, I have never paid money and attended ANY workshop.

Oops, I remembered a style workshop I did 2 years ago with Camille F from Oz and Simon Borland.

Luckily no one noticed.:cool:

[jemessex]

Left to my own devises I would dance in circles as it's the way ceroc teaches and I haven't tried any other classes.



is it??..cannot remember being taught going round in circles

[mabraham]

It's telling that the pretzel is taught with a clear signal – waving your hand behind your back – to get your follower to step to your left. It's even more telling that most of the regular Ceroc-taught moves where the lady needs to step to your left incorporate the pretzel signal.

That signal isn't needed. If the follow is not anticipating a particular direction for the lead to lead them along (or if she must have one, straight forwards), then it's easy enough to lead her to the left side of your body. It'll probably take some time for the follow to learn to follow that, if she hasn't seen it before. The lead will also need to move off the original line in the same way they might for moves where the follow passes down their right-hand side.

Amusingly, leads often take ages to learn to actually lead a Sway around Australia, because a commonly-taught signal (left hand palm up at left hip) magically gets the lady to step in and turn herself. Presto! Instant non-dancing! :wink: Such signals do serve a purpose in the learning process, however.

[Astro]

is it??..cannot remember being taught going round in circles

Please disregard my posts on this thread.

I haven't a clue what I'm talking about.:blush:

[Ghost]

Please disregard my posts on this thread.

I haven't a clue what I'm talking about.:blush:

It's worth noting that your posts have value as
"I'm a follow and this is what I believe" as other follows may well feel the same.

It lets leads reconsider how they're leading. Chef seemed quite surprised that you felt forced into slots for example so that's probably useful for him to know.

[Chef]

It's worth noting that your posts have value as
"I'm a follow and this is what I believe" as other follows may well feel the same.

It lets leads reconsider how they're leading. Chef seemed quite surprised that you felt forced into slots for example so that's probably useful for him to know.

:yeah: Astros posts have value, like most peoples, in that they promote discussion and they are not about trivial things (ie they are about dancing). Sometimes I have expressed my view about something on the forum and as a result of the subsequent discussion have changed my mind about something, and as a result have changed the way I do something.

Discussion is always good but it doesn't always make me change my mind.

I was surprised and dismayed that Astro felt forced into dancing in a slot when dancing with me. A lot of the things I want to do in dance either only work, or IMHO, work better in a slot. Because of this I try to lead my follower to where I want her to be so the whole thing works. If my follower goes somewhere other than where I was leading her then I have to abandon what I was going to do, often completely because I try to fit the moves to the music and the music won't wait for a second try. I then have to come up with something to salvage the situation and hopefully still fit the music.

While this is happening I am looking around for available space to lead my follower into without danger to her. I often have to bend the shape of a move to get the follower to exit into that safe space.

I thought I was doing that reasonably well but since Astro feels that I am forcing her to go in a direction that I want her to go in then I am obviously not doing it as well as I had hoped.

I am not sure what I should do now. Should I get followers to go where I want them too with them feeling forced or just let them go where they want to so they don't feel forced or constrained.

[Gadget]

...I am not sure what I should do now. Should I get followers to go where I want them too with them feeling forced or just let them go where they want to so they don't feel forced or constrained.
You should let them think that they are going where they want to, but are actually leading them where you want them to be.

I'm sure it's the escence of what Franck teaches - you close off the options you don't want them to take and leave them with a path of least resistance to follow.

{...If you get it to work, then please let me know: I've been trying for years :blush:}

[Ghost]

I am not sure what I should do now. Should I get followers to go where I want them too with them feeling forced or just let them go where they want to so they don't feel forced or constrained.
Reminded me of something Gadget said ages ago and thankfully he's recently re-said it to save me searching for it


I used to be a domineering lead who would only give the follower space when I felt it fitted what we were dancing to. <snip>I used to dance like this: My partner is a prop that I know all the leads and manipulations to get them to move how I want, when I want, where I want.
Nothing really wrong with that


You should let them think that they are going where they want to, but are actually leading them where you want them to be.

I'm sure it's the escence of what Franck teaches - you close off the options you don't want them to take and leave them with a path of least resistance to follow.
I'm guessing this is what Chef's doing - I doubt he's manhandling Astro, so I'm wondering if this still feels forced? Like being trapped in a maze - you want to get out but can't figure out how to do it.

{...If you get it to work, then please let me know: I've been trying for years :blush:}
It's much easier if you pull faces at them :na: ; it distracts them from thinking about all those other pesky options they have :whistle:

The alternative option is that some women, (particularly the WCSer I'd guess) are quite happy dancing in a slot. So lead your first movement slotted, but leave enough space that they can go off it they want to. If they stay in the slot do what you normally do.

If they go off, you have two choices.
1. Decide that the extra skill / musicality etc you bring to a dance while dancing slotted outweighs them feeling "forced" into a slot

2. Dance non-slotted. You'll be deliberately doing it, so it won't be a surprise when they go off.


(Just as an aside if anyone else wants to mulit-quote from different threads, you need to scroll down and click on the very small option after you hit quote )

[TA Guy]

If they go off, you have two choices.
1. Decide that the extra skill / musicality etc you bring to a dance while dancing slotted outweighs them feeling "forced" into a slot

2. Dance non-slotted. You'll be deliberately doing it, so it won't be a surprise when they go off.



You should let them think that they are going where they want to, but are actually leading them where you want them to be.


In theory, the third alternative, Gadgets solution, some kind of mysterious Godlike leading where you let a partner think that they are going where they want to, but are actually going where you want them sounds fantastic (if a little X-filey :)), but with certain partners, it is exceedingly difficult to do consistantly without using a fair amount of force as was reported by several in another thread (the 'slotted V non-slotted' one I think). I'm not saying it couldn't be done, but, phew, Godlike lead wouldn't cover it :) Certainly beyond my abilities with some partners.

Styles do clash. If one partner wants to dance slotted, and one partner wants to dance non-slotted, then in a dance of equals, you have a problem. It needs a solution and in a perfect world, it seems to me both partners would give and take a little to find a middle ground solution. Unfort, it's not a perfect world of course and a follower, for whatever reason, might have a definite preference, so....

I can only speak for myself, but number one is just not an option, 'forcing' was just not how I was 'brought up' to lead.
Personally, I get great pleasure if I manage to give a follow a 'good' dance, and again, speaking for myself, it means not forcing the follower, but adapting (to the best of my ability) to the follower. You might consider that 'giving in', and just dancing the way the follow wants, but I don't, I take the view that MJ is a broad church with many styles, and I just consider it not getting hung up on one style.
I'm not saying that anyone in this thread doesn't observe this rule, and I know it's a bit trite, but 'the follower comes first' was the way I was taught. If I put the follower first and she gets a 'good' dance, the rewards (in that the follow has a better dance, and I take pleasure in that if it happens!) far outweigh the downside for me.

There is a fourth option, however unpaletable, just dance with people you know conform to your individual style requirements.

[Gadget]

In theory, the third alternative, Gadgets solution, some kind of mysterious Godlike leading where you let a partner think that they are going where they want to, but are actually going where you want them sounds fantastic (if a little X-filey :)), but with certain partners, it is exceedingly difficult to do consistantly without using a fair amount of force...
Try standing infront of where they want to go or having them come against a block/stop where they wouldn't expect one. - give them the rope and let them see how far they can tangle themselves... I can be evil to dance with sometimes :devil::D

... of course other times I end up flattened :blush: