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Raul
29th-September-2007, 12:06 AM
... if you are a beginner yourself and there are other dancers available.

Dancing with other beginners is ok for making new friends but as far as your dancing skills are concerned, the chances are that there will be twice as many mistakes in the dance and you will not be able to know which one of you is doing which bit correctly. It is ok if you are not taking that dance seriously.

Take courage and ask someone with more experience to dance. You will learn more about your own dancing and progress faster. Taxi dancers do a fantastic job at that and they may also be able to point out the beginner-friendly dancers at your venue to you.

Lynn
29th-September-2007, 12:18 AM
I can see where you are coming from Raul, and of course there are taxis and beginner friendly dancers and its very useful for a beginner to have a few dances with them but ....


.
Dancing with other beginners is ok for making new friends but as far as your dancing skills are concerned, the chances are that there will be twice as many mistakes in the dance and you will not be able to know which one of you is doing which bit correctly. It is ok if you are not taking that dance seriously.
...I think for beginners making friends is often more important than 'dancing skills' in the first few weeks. And getting up with a fellow beginner and both making mistakes can be a giggle and reassuring.

There is plenty of time to develop dancing skills and take the dance seriously after a few weeks or months of dancing. Let the beginners have fun, make friends and if they make a few mistakes along the way that's no big problem, they will get ironed out as they gain more experience.

MartinHarper
29th-September-2007, 01:37 AM
Yeah, I'd have to disagree with Raul too. To quote the lead/follow FAQ:

You learn how to dance better by dancing with more experienced partners. But you learn how to lead/follow better by dancing with less experienced partners.
FAQ: Lead and Follow, section 1.5 (http://www.eijkhout.net/lead_follow/beginners.html)

I recommend that everyone dances regularly with beginners, particularly beginners.

Martin
29th-September-2007, 04:12 PM
... if you are a beginner yourself and there are other dancers available.

Dancing with other beginners is ok for making new friends but as far as your dancing skills are concerned, the chances are that there will be twice as many mistakes in the dance and you will not be able to know which one of you is doing which bit correctly. It is ok if you are not taking that dance seriously.

Take courage and ask someone with more experience to dance. You will learn more about your own dancing and progress faster. Taxi dancers do a fantastic job at that and they may also be able to point out the beginner-friendly dancers at your venue to you.

I think it is great for beginners to dance with other beginners, it is social, but to progess, grab the more advanced...

Last night I danced with 2 first timers, and one 3rd timer... rest of the night with the ones I regularly dance with.

David Bailey
29th-September-2007, 04:57 PM
Dance with everyone.Although maybe not at the same time

Astro
29th-September-2007, 06:15 PM
Dance with everyone.Although maybe not at the same time

Beginners can't distinguish who's good and who's not.

There are some advanced dancers that run away from me. I think they have flashbacks of dancing with me as a beginner, poor souls.:blush:


Good advice is stay till the end, dance the freestyle.

Just doing the classes, and then going home is stupid, you won't retain anything.

Clueless
29th-September-2007, 06:27 PM
In Aberdeen 9/10 we carry on the dancing elsewhere, mainly on a Wednesday and I found this really good when I was learning (I still am) and I find it good to dance as often and with as many people as possible.

Dazzler
30th-September-2007, 10:06 AM
i love dancing with everyone...for different reasons based on thier experience.. e.g with advanced dancers i can put my musical interpretation to best use but with beginners i can build the strength of my lead... guess what am saying is beginners should dance with everyone to build on different areas of thier lead... i also have to agree that alot of beginners are nervous on thier first few weeks and probably find it easier to dance with each other as there is no pressure..

happy dancin to all! :clap:

ducasi
30th-September-2007, 11:48 PM
Beginners can't distinguish who's good and who's not.
I disagree. They might not be capable of judging at the next Ceroc Champs, but I think even most non-dancers will be able to tell the best from the worst, and the experienced from the beginner.

As a (touch in cheek) example of this... I remember being one time I was asked to dance by a beginner... She explained she had been advised to look around the hall and find the best dancers in the room, and ask them to dance. Clearly she was very discerning. ;)

(Oh, but I agree with the general statement, dance with everyone.)

Dreadful Scathe
1st-October-2007, 08:26 AM
Yeah, I'd have to disagree with Raul too. To quote the lead/follow FAQ:

FAQ: Lead and Follow, section 1.5 (http://www.eijkhout.net/lead_follow/beginners.html)
yup, thats certainly my experience too. Theres nothing better for your lead than dancing with someone who clearly doesn't understand it - a "multi-lingual" lead is what you eventually end up with. Although i say that from PAST experience, my last few dances have been a bit hit and miss to say the least.

David Bailey
1st-October-2007, 08:39 AM
You know, every time I see this thread title, I mentally complete it as "... for they are subtle and quick to anger." :)

Looking at the original post, I think I agree with some of the principles, in that, as a beginner, it's easy to just dance with other beginners, they're less intimidating and they're more likely to be in your comfort zone.

It's scary asking the good dancers, so we don't - it's easier to dance with people at your own level or below. But we'd get more out of it if we asked a wider range of people (including those good dancers), than if we stuck to our comfort level.

David Franklin
1st-October-2007, 10:11 AM
You know, every time I see this thread title, I mentally complete it as "... for they are subtle and quick to anger." :)Well for me, it was the line "... for thou art crunchy and taste good with catsup".


Looking at the original post, I think I agree with some of the principles, in that, as a beginner, it's easy to just dance with other beginners, they're less intimidating and they're more likely to be in your comfort zone.

It's scary asking the good dancers, so we don't - it's easier to dance with people at your own level or below. But we'd get more out of it if we asked a wider range of people (including those good dancers), than if we stuck to our comfort level.I took the original post as talking about genuine beginners: people who'd done less than 5 classes. And in that context I think it's spot on to be honest. It's much easier to learn how to lead if you have a follow who knows what she's doing, and vice versa. If both of you don't have a clue, I'd say the most likely result is for both sides to do their side of the move "by rote", with no actual lead or follow going on.

A telling line from the section of the Lead/Follow FAQ:


Your skills are put much more to the test dancing with a beginner than with an experienced dancer.

If you're a beginner, this is probably not a good thing...

killingtime
1st-October-2007, 10:49 AM
I disagree. They might not be capable of judging at the next Ceroc Champs, but I think even most non-dancers will be able to tell the best from the worst, and the experienced from the beginner.

(Oh, but I agree with the general statement, dance with everyone.)

Maybe, though I think I found women who anticipated/back lead easier to dance with as a beginner rather than women who followed. Some people who looked good didn't seem to dance very well when I lead them (never really seemed to fully work out the fault was in the lead :rolleyes: ) compared to others. Later, when I actually learnt more about this whole lead/follow thing I discovered that those I thought were awesome turned out to be tricky to lead whereas those that followed my lead became awesome.

As bad as this sounds even to me I think that backleading group of dancers were a great boast to my confidence as a beginner and, though it might have slowed down my progression, it was probably worth it.

Anyway the whole dance with everyone statement, I agree.

Raul
1st-October-2007, 01:41 PM
I started this thread because the most depressing dances that I have had as a BEGINNER in Jive and other dance forms has been with some other BEGINNERS.

These were depressing enough to make me think about giving up completely. When you start you really do not have a clue and there are many fundamental weknesses in your dancing. You may be very to dance with and experienced dancers may be able to perform a dance with you. If this is multiplied by two, that is with two beginners, you may not be able to go through one dance at all. Of course you can laugh it all, make friends but when you go home and think about your progress you may be inclined to think that you are not getting it at all. This is a NOT a true assessment of your skills.

If you are going for the purpose of learning, do the class which is taught by a teacher, do the revision class taught by an taxi dancer, again experienced and try and dance with some more experienced dancers.

The thread title was to make people stop and think. The intention is to stop beginners from trying to dance the hard way, beating themselves up and giving up.

Ghost
1st-October-2007, 02:40 PM
You know, every time I see this thread title, I mentally complete it as "... for they are subtle and quick to anger." :)



Well for me, it was the line "... for thou art crunchy and taste good with catsup".


"..they will only make you feel ugly"

which rather appropriately is what Raul's getting at I think.

I learnt Ceroc with 3 crazy women :awe:. They each have a totally different style. We had a great time learning :D. They knew that I would always dance with them and I knew they'd always dance with me - and I think that helps a lot. Probably more if you're a follow who doesn't know anyone and is shy about asking for dances.

But yeah, I did dance with the scarily good dancers too :wink:

Zuhal
1st-October-2007, 02:48 PM
WCS BLISS

about 300 people did the Beginner+ WCS workshop of which about 20 put their hand up to some previous experience.

I have some ability in different dance stylesbut this WCS is new to me.
I got the footwork syncopation but the moment I had a partner to worry about I lost it. During the rotation I had two ladies (out of maybe 20) who could WCS so then my pattern and the movement worked.

Smaller numbers did the whips workshop and there was more expertise dotted around so it was much easier to make it all work.

Raul has a point.

Zuhal

Lynn
1st-October-2007, 03:11 PM
If you are going for the purpose of learning, do the class which is taught by a teacher, do the revision class taught by an taxi dancer, again experienced and try and dance with some more experienced dancers.
Absolutely agree with all of that but the thread wasn't just encouraging people to dance with more experienced dancers but the title was aimed at actively avoiding dancing with other beginners.


The thread title was to make people stop and think. The intention is to stop beginners from trying to dance the hard way, beating themselves up and giving up. But likewise dancing with more experienced dancers can be demotivating - feeling like you'll never measure up.

I would say, as others have - dance with everyone. If you are a beginner, of course make sure you grab a taxi and some other friendly dancers for some dances, but likewise be willing to have a go with another beginner and feel reassured that you aren't the only one getting it wrong.

FWIW, if two beginners are really getting hopelessly lost, any taxis who are not dancing can go over and offer help.

Raul
1st-October-2007, 04:17 PM
Absolutely agree with all of that but the thread wasn't just encouraging people to dance with more experienced dancers but the title was aimed at actively avoiding dancing with other beginners.



This is probably how you interpreted it.

This is the beginners section.
The title was to catch the attention of beginners. I have not said "actively avoid dancing with other beginners" but i realise just mentioning the words "beginners" will raise a red flag with persons who are sensitive about beginner dancing or are politically correct.

If I am encouraging beginners to dance with more experienced dancers is it such a bad thing? What is wrong with dancing with a beginner, we often talk about experienced people dancing with beginners but in reality not many do. We do not talk that often about beginners asking or accepting dances from experienced dancers. They are the ones who will often not ask or accept because they are shaking in their boots. They are the ones who need the encouragement to mix it. I regularly help in the beginners review class instead of doing the intermediate class and I see how hard it is for some of them to get it on their own. There are 2 taxi dancers for 20+ beginners sometimes.

Astro
1st-October-2007, 04:22 PM
This is probably how you interpreted it.

This is the beginners section.
The title was to catch the attention of beginners. I have not said "actively avoid dancing with other beginners" but i realise just mentioning the words "beginners" will raise a red flag with persons who are sensitive about beginner dancing or are politically correct.

If I am encouraging beginners to dance with more experienced dancers is it such a bad thing? What is wrong with dancing with a beginner, we often talk about experienced people dancing with beginners but in reality not many do. We do not talk that often about beginners asking or accepting dances from experienced dancers. They are the ones who will often not ask or accept because they are shaking in their boots. They are the ones who need the encouragement to mix it. I regularly help in the beginners review class instead of doing the intermediate class and I see how hard it is for some of them to get it on their own. There are 2 taxi dancers for 20+ beginners sometimes.

I used to ask the Gods as a beginner, but that was because I was taken there by a man, who didn't know who the best leads were.

If I had known who was who I wouldn't have had the nerve probably.

Sometimes it pays to be innocent.:innocent:

Beginners can get away with a lot.:D

Lynn
1st-October-2007, 04:34 PM
If I am encouraging beginners to dance with more experienced dancers is it such a bad thing? Not at all. Just that you might have put it as 'beginners, make sure you get some dances with more experienced dancers and don't only dance with other beginners', rather than 'Do not dance with beginners if you are a beginner and there are other dancers available' (which would be most of the time).

Encourage beginners to dance with more experienced dancers by all means. That is how they will learn after all. But for some beginners (and we're talking people at weeks 1-3 or so here) just getting through the class and having a wee go at doing the moves in a few tracks after class is enough.

Believe me, I'm passionate about people learning and feeling good about themselves in regard to what they have managed to achieve, probably more so than about anything else! But I also understand the importance of people feeling comfortable and sometimes that means having a few dances with someone closer to their ability level where they don't feel under pressure to 'get it right'. For someone in their first few weeks that can be more important than worrying too much about technique.

Once you get to a few months in, then dancing with more experienced dancers is invaluable.


What is wrong with dancing with a beginner, we often talk about experienced people dancing with beginners but in reality not many do. I do. I usually have to actively seek them out and I think that's an important point and possibly partly where you are coming from - trying to encourage beginners to ask the more experienced dancers?

Raul
1st-October-2007, 04:41 PM
I used to ask the Gods as a beginner, but that was because I was taken there by a man, who didn't know who the best leads were.

If I had known who was who I wouldn't have had the nerve probably.

Sometimes it pays to be innocent.:innocent:

Beginners can get away with a lot.:D

At a non MJ dance school i attend, we have concurrent lessons for each level. At the end of the lessons, all students get together and the teacher will purposely pair off dancers of different levels for the first two dances of freestyle and instruct mix them to dance simple and well.

dave the scaffolder
1st-October-2007, 04:45 PM
At a non MJ dance school i attend, we have concurrent lessons for each level. At the end of the lessons, all students get together and the teacher will purposely pair off dancers of different levels for the first two dances of freestyle and instruct mix them to dance simple and well.

Thats genious that is.
XXX XXX DTS Dave

Dreadful Scathe
1st-October-2007, 04:48 PM
instruct mix them to dance simple and well.

<football chant> Are you Stewart38 in disguise...etc...</football chant>

Raul
1st-October-2007, 05:00 PM
<football chant> Are you Stewart38 in disguise...etc...</football chant>

err. I tend to read and change what I type a lot rather than just type as I would speak.

Do you always look at the wrapping rather than the contents? What's wrong with Stewart38?

killingtime
1st-October-2007, 05:38 PM
I do. I usually have to actively seek them out and I think that's an important point and possibly partly where you are coming from - trying to encourage beginners to ask the more experienced dancers?

Though most of the time our teachers mention this anyway "we have taxi dancers who are there to help but you should ask anyone to dance".

More to the point, how would you suggest going about telling beginners this? Should the teacher state that beginners shouldn't dance with other beginners because "you all suck and you'll teach each other bad habits" (hardly seems a welcoming statement). If you come as a beginner couple should you not dance with each other? How do you convince a lot of intermediates that it is worth their time to forgo the intermediate class to do the beginner revision? If all the experienced dancers seem to be busy should a beginner sit out rather than dance with another beginner?

Lynn
1st-October-2007, 08:12 PM
More to the point, how would you suggest going about telling beginners this? Should the teacher state that beginners shouldn't dance with other beginners because "you all suck and you'll teach each other bad habits" (hardly seems a welcoming statement). If you come as a beginner couple should you not dance with each other? How do you convince a lot of intermediates that it is worth their time to forgo the intermediate class to do the beginner revision? If all the experienced dancers seem to be busy should a beginner sit out rather than dance with another beginner?

I'm not sure Raul was actually advocating actively telling beginners not to dance with other beginners - though I guess that is exactly what this thread title is doing!

MartinHarper
1st-October-2007, 08:30 PM
I have not said "actively avoid dancing with other beginners".


Do not dance with beginners if you are a beginner yourself and there are other dancers available.

Suppose I go to a dance class in Outer Hebridean Three Step. It's unclear to me how I might follow your advice not to dance with beginners, without avoiding dancing with beginners. Perhaps you could enlighten me?

frodo
1st-October-2007, 08:53 PM
about 300 people did the Beginner+ WCS workshop of which about 20 put their hand up to some previous experience.

I have some ability in different dance stylesbut this WCS is new to me.
I got the footwork syncopation but the moment I had a partner to worry about I lost it. During the rotation I had two ladies (out of maybe 20) who could WCS so then my pattern and the movement worked.

Smaller numbers did the whips workshop and there was more expertise dotted around so it was much easier to make it all work.

Raul has a point.
Certainly a point with other dances such as WCS.

But I'd question it applies anything like as much to modern jive.

Isn't one of the points of modern jive that is asks so much less of beginner dancers - they don't risk losing the footwork with a partner to worry about.

Raul
1st-October-2007, 11:28 PM
Do not dance with beginners ....


... if you are a beginner yourself and there are other dancers available.



A few of you appear to have an issue with this statement.

Many of the replies have been from an experienced dancer viewpoint about experienced dancers dancing with beginners and with everyone for that matter.

Some of the replies have been made on the wrong assumption that I am encouraging beginners not to dance with other beginners even if no experienced dancer is free.

These replies are off the mark and do not relate to the main issue which is that beginners progress faster if they get dancing experience from better dancers in addition to taxi dancers.

The statement was to get beginners to push beyond the barrier of dancing only with other beginners, which is so frequently the case.

One of my non MJ teachers puts it this way - Because you are all very new, for the first few weeks you will be dancing like Pinnochio but you will soon get past this stage. I would encourage you to dance as much as possible with more experienced dancers. When dancing with other new beginners you will be like Pinnochio and his girlfriend, not knowing who is doing what and why.

Beginners will be still be dancing with beginners anyway because their natural inclination is to do so, they are sharing a new experience together, like people on a foreign holiday. The task at hand is not to encourage them to keep their dancing only within this group, but to make the extra step.

MartinHarper
2nd-October-2007, 12:44 AM
A few of you appear to have an issue with this statement.

Oh, no. I'm just looking for more information on how I can apply your excellent advice when I go to my next Outer Hebridean Three Step class.

For example, as a beginner in Three Step, if a fellow beginner asks me to dance, what's the best way to turn her down so I can ask the intermediate chick at the bar to dance? I mean, obviously I don't want to be dancing with a beginner when there are other dancers available, as you say. Should I tell her that dancing with me will probably be depressing enough that it'll make her want to give up completely? Or would a simple "No, thank you" be more appropriate?

Lynn
2nd-October-2007, 12:49 AM
Beginners will be still be dancing with beginners anyway because their natural inclination is to do so, they are sharing a new experience together, like people on a foreign holiday. The task at hand is not to encourage them to keep their dancing only within this group, but to make the extra step.Then why not simply say that?

Why not say what others have said which is that beginners should dance both with other beginners, as they will do, and more experienced dancers? I think that is why people are responding as they are as you have actually titled your thread 'do not dance with beginners'.

No has ever advocated that beginners should only ever dance with beginners, in fact at every class I've been to the beginners have been actively encouraged to ask the taxis, the teacher and demo, and more experienced dancers. That is pretty much the norm and other experienced dancers like myself will go a step further and make sure we ask the beginners (I esp do this at a freestyle party night as there is no revision class or taxis on duty).

I'm just a little confused why we need a thread telling beginners not to dance with other beginners? I'm not having a go, I'm genuinely curious as to why this thread was started.

Raul
2nd-October-2007, 01:46 AM
Oh, no. I'm just looking for more information on how I can apply your excellent advice when I go to my next Outer Hebridean Three Step class.

For example, as a beginner in Three Step, if a fellow beginner asks me to dance, what's the best way to turn her down so I can ask the intermediate chick at the bar to dance? I mean, obviously I don't want to be dancing with a beginner when there are other dancers available, as you say. Should I tell her that dancing with me will probably be depressing enough that it'll make her want to give up completely? Or would a simple "No, thank you" be more appropriate?

Thank you very much MartinHarper.

As to your needing "my excellent advice" when you go to your next "Outer Hebridean Three Step class", I shall just pass.:rolleyes:

I find your sarcasm as amusing as your interpretation that my original statement meant "turn down beginners who ask you" as opposed to "do not ask beginners to dance if you have a choice of who to ask", which was the intention.:nice:

I have learnt on this thread that the word "Beginner" is as emotive as the words "Children" or "Christianity".

Well chaps who instinctively leap in and assume the worst, I am giving you the opportunity to express your pent up emotions on the matter, at no charge. :wink:

Thetruth
2nd-October-2007, 02:03 AM
Dance with everyone.Although maybe not at the same time

Ditto to that, plus have fun.

Thetruth
2nd-October-2007, 02:08 AM
Thank you very much MartinHarper.

As to your needing "my excellent advice" when you go to your next "Outer Hebridean Three Step class", I shall just pass.:rolleyes:

I find your sarcasm as amusing as your interpretation that my original statement meant "turn down beginners who ask you" as opposed to "do not ask beginners to dance if you have a choice of who to ask", which was the intention.:nice:

I have learnt on this thread that the word "Beginner" is as emotive as the words "Children" or "Christianity".

Well chaps who instinctively leap in and assume the worst, I am giving you the opportunity to express your pent up emotions on the matter, at no charge. :wink:

With you on this one. I read your opening to the thread as you intended. However, there are many emotive issues on the forum and many more to come.

David Bailey
2nd-October-2007, 10:30 AM
For example, as a beginner in Three Step, if a fellow beginner asks me to dance, what's the best way to turn her down so I can ask the intermediate chick at the bar to dance?
You could always refer her to this post, that should put her off.

Lynn
2nd-October-2007, 01:12 PM
I have learnt on this thread that the word "Beginner" is as emotive as the words "Children" or "Christianity".

Well chaps who instinctively leap in and assume the worst, I am giving you the opportunity to express your pent up emotions on the matter, at no charge. :wink:Why? I'm really confused here as to the point of this thread.

When its clearly said from the stage every week, after the beginner class, after the revision class, when there are taxis brought up on stage, wearing a uniform and in a designated area - from all these things, its clear that beginners are already very much encouraged to ask more experienced dancers. Add to that the 'non crew' experienced dancers who actively seek out beginners (and we have a few at our venues, guys who look round to make sure ladies get at least one dance with a more experienced lead etc) and I think that the general message already is to not only dance with other beginners but have a few dances with more experienced dancers.

So why does it need to be an issue to specifically tell them not to dance with other beginners?

Gadget
2nd-October-2007, 01:17 PM
Beginners should dance with beginners. And everyone else, but here are a couple of reasons for specifically dancing with other beginners:

- They are at the same level as you; you don't really expect them to get it all right and they don't expect you to get it all right.
- You can pool resources and come up with a question for someone more experianced that can help you.
- It can highlight problems both of you are having and you are more inclined to talk with your partner to work out why and how to fix it than you would be with someone who's been going longer.
- It forms more of a 'bond' with someone when you have something in common, and this is primaraly a social activity after all.
- You can (at a later date) have a common ground to judge how much you/your partner have/has improved.

timbp
2nd-October-2007, 01:32 PM
I'm just a little confused why we need a thread telling beginners not to dance with other beginners? I'm not having a go, I'm genuinely curious as to why this thread was started.

Human nature? Beginners will naturally tend to dance with other beginners. Make a decree that they must not dance with beginners, and they will be more likely to try to dance with more experienced dancers. And every time they dance with a beginner, guilt will prompt them to ask a more advanced person to dance. So they dance more with better dancers, and so they progress faster.

Except for the ones for whom the guilt is too much. They danced with a beginner, not an advanced dancer. Oh, the shame! They cannot possibly return next week.
So they don't.

Lynn
2nd-October-2007, 03:44 PM
Human nature? Beginners will naturally tend to dance with other beginners. Make a decree that they must not dance with beginners, and they will be more likely to try to dance with more experienced dancers. And every time they dance with a beginner, guilt will prompt them to ask a more advanced person to dance. So they dance more with better dancers, and so they progress faster. We're talking about people who have been attending class for just a few weeks.

Yes, there are beginners who want to progress quickly - I know I did and I asked the teacher for a dance most weeks (being the only experienced lead there!) and wanted him to lead moves I didn't know so that I would make sure I was following.

But the average beginner, is often happy enough to get through that nights routine, have a few dances with taxis, have a few dances with their friends (who may be fellow beginners), and maybe chat and make some new friends. I really don't think the first few weeks is when we want to be pressuring people to worry about 'making faster progress', I think the focus is on them enjoying the evening and feeling they are going at their own pace.

As I've already mentioned, the whole way an average night is run encourages beginners to dance with more experienced dancers - why isn't that enough? Why the need to tell them not to dance with other beginners?

Astro
2nd-October-2007, 04:10 PM
As a female follow, I would state that even on your FIRST night as a beginner, with the right lead (no, not another beginner) you can have the dance of your life.

So go on girls, get asking.

What's it like for the beginner men?:na:

Whitebeard
3rd-October-2007, 03:07 AM
As a female follow, I would state that even on your FIRST night as a beginner, with the right lead (no, not another beginner) you can have the dance of your life. :

Yes, I've seen it locally time and time again as the teacher or DJ/organiser plucks a beginner lady onto the floor from the sidelines and makes her look like a real dancer. For me, it is not so easy: I find some beginners very heavy going indeed; so, mucho respect, and all hail to these positive and dedicated leaders.




What's it like for the beginner men?:na:

Much, much, more difficult I would say. Particularly in my case as a geriatric very, very, slow learner.

In the early weeks or months it's really all psychology I believe, and dancing with fellow beginners, messing it up, having a laugh, relating to each other, forming a possibibly quite long-lasting (dancing) relationship and friendship is what matters. At this stage, can an experienced follow actually teach me much; I doubt it. By default I am supposed to be the leader and expected to initiate the moves, lead from start to finish. Is the stress of trying to live up to the unachievable expectations of an experienced follower really going to be of help.

But progress does occur imperceptibley and, later on, I was fortunate in that one particular more experienced lady repeatabley asked me to dance when I was, frankly, absolutle crap. I owe her a debt. But, one day, I managed to string together a decent dance and we've been regular, once or twice a night, partners ever since. I like to surprise her now and then with a cheeky cheesecakey payback.

So, nearly four years later into the MJ scene where do I stand. Definiteley not an intermediate as I do not have even imperfect mastery of the armtwisty dippy droppy seducery mean. An imperfect improver perhaps ??

Astro
3rd-October-2007, 06:38 PM
Yes, I've seen it locally time and time again as the teacher or DJ/organiser plucks a beginner lady onto the floor from the sidelines and makes her look like a real dancer. For me, it is not so easy: I find some beginners very heavy going indeed; so, mucho respect, and all hail to these positive and dedicated leaders.

Could this explain the higher retention rates of female beginners?

As for the beginner men -

Much, much, more difficult I would say. Particularly in my case as a geriatric very, very, slow learner.

In the early weeks or months it's really all psychology I believe, and dancing with fellow beginners, messing it up, having a laugh, relating to each other, forming a possibibly quite long-lasting (dancing) relationship and friendship is what matters. At this stage, can an experienced follow actually teach me much; I doubt it. By default I am supposed to be the leader and expected to initiate the moves, lead from start to finish. Is the stress of trying to live up to the unachievable expectations of an experienced follower really going to be of help.

Ghost
3rd-October-2007, 06:52 PM
I think it also depends on what the guy wants out of it.

I had many lovely dances when I started that were frankly very simple. But I'm perfectly content with that* and will still happilly do simple dances. So all I needed was a follow who could relax and follow and was happy with a simple dance.

"You're not like the other guys here. They do stylish moves, but you're gentle"
Pretty much summed things up :wink:

But if you wanted to be doing drops, aerials and looking fantastic, then I suspect the beginning would be very rough indeed :tears:.

* provided the follow is. Some follows find simple = boring.

Martin
4th-October-2007, 05:35 AM
Because you are all very new, for the first few weeks you will be dancing like Pinnochio but you will soon get past this stage. I would encourage you to dance as much as possible with more experienced dancers. When dancing with other new beginners you will be like Pinnochio and his girlfriend, not knowing who is doing what and why.



I love this quote Raul :D
It will scar me for some time, while I imagine Pinnochio, when looking at some beginners! :rofl:

My son when he first started, danced almost exclusively with advanced follows (thanks girls for looking afer him :love:) - it helped him a lot, and he soon became a good lead.

When I started I was fortunate to have charitable more experienced follows who wanted to encorage me and asked me to dance every week.

I have now moved to the gold coast and they are super friendly here - a lot of it, I believe, coming from the example of the teachers/owners of the dance company. I do the beginners class and chat to everyone, then I seek out the beginners who have half a clue (to encorage them and have a laugh together) and the most advanced (for my play time).
Thinking about it, I do not dance much with the intermediates.

One girl who came for the first time Friday, I danced with 3 times, and she made the comment... "My theory was right, given the right partner, I can dance"

Lynn
4th-October-2007, 10:55 AM
One girl who came for the first time Friday, I danced with 3 times, and she made the comment... "My theory was right, given the right partner, I can dance"Definitely. A dance with a more experienced lead when you are a beginner can make your evening, leave you floating thinking 'I can do this'. I remember a few of those and they were fab!

But that is a good reason for beginners to dance with experienced dancers - but not a reason to actually avoid dancing with other beginners.

Astro
4th-October-2007, 04:36 PM
"You're not like the other guys here. They do stylish moves, but you're gentle"


You are definately one of the gentlest leaders.:clap: :worthy:Also Ghost can do steps, he doesn't just shift from one foot to the other.


[quote=Martin;415184]

My son when he first started, danced almost exclusively with advanced follows (thanks girls for looking afer him :love:) - it helped him a lot, and he soon became a good lead.

Plus he would have had you to practice on?


When I started I was fortunate to have charitable more experienced follows who wanted to encorage me and asked me to dance every week.


Thinking about it, I do not dance much with the intermediates. Do you dance with the advanced ladies on the Gold Coast?:waycool:


One girl who came for the first time Friday, I danced with 3 times, and she made the comment... "My theory was right, given the right partner, I can dance"

Or, much later, when she can dance, she may say, "given the wrong partner, I can't dance"

Martin
5th-October-2007, 12:15 AM
Plus he would have had you to practice on?

True, but normally when at home and we are talking about a move and have no ladies around. - And yes I am sure it looks well funny us dancing together. If at a venue, I would normally leave it up to an advanced lady :blush::flower:




Do you dance with the advanced ladies on the Gold Coast?:waycool:

Yup, as I said, mostly beginners in their first 5 weeks, then the advanced dancers.
I still dance with intermediates , but have little time left to dance with many, after the beginners and the advanced.