Hands at waist height?

[Ghost]

In this case, If a follower clearly wants to raise her hand up high, then I'd work around it - for example, either by switching to moves that work in that position, or by leaving that hand alone and using other leads. I certainly wouldn't force her hand to a place she's not comfortable with.

I've not been convinced about the whole "hands at waist height" for a long time now. If you lead a move, in my experience, at the "end" of it follows will naturally return their hand to the same place (which varies from follow to follow).

Whether this is an effect of the difference in our heights (both ways), the relative proportions of her torso or something else entirely I dont know.

Any thoughts, or am I just a heretic? :devil:

[ducasi]

I guess the "hands at waist height" thing is more about getting people to keep their hands as naturally low as possible, unless you need to raise your hand(s). Hands held high all the time are confusing, tiring and dangerous.

[Andy McGregor]

I've not been convinced about the whole "hands at waist height" for a long time now. If you lead a move, in my experience, at the "end" of it follows will naturally return their hand to the same place (which varies from follow to follow).

Whether this is an effect of the difference in our heights (both ways), the relative proportions of her torso or something else entirely I dont know.

Any thoughts, or am I just a heretic? :devil:Don't listen to David James. He's a Argentine Tango dancer - and not even a very good one.

IMHO the lady's hand should be kept at a height where her forearm is sloping slightly down towards the wrist when you are leading her backwards or forwards or into a spin. You, obviously, need to raise the hand to turn her on the spot, etc. But you should return the hand to the resting height after you've completed the turn. Or you could go to Argentine Tango with David James and plague us on a Modern Jive forum by being constantly TangoCentric.

[David Bailey]

Don't listen to David James. He's a Argentine Tango dancer - and not even a very good one.
True. :tears:


Or you could go to Argentine Tango with David James and plague us on a Modern Jive forum by being constantly TangoCentric.
Yay! Sounds like a plan to me :clap:

Besides, what makes you think this is a Modern Jive forum, anyhow?

OK, anyway, topic... IMNSHO, there's no real fixed default hand position in MJ, it's a constantly-moving environment, and the hand position depends on the move, the environment, the music and so on.

[Andy McGregor]

OK, anyway, topic... IMNSHO, there's no real fixed default hand position in MJ, it's a constantly-moving environment, and the hand position depends on the move, the environment, the music and so on.What more proof do you need that my earlier post was correct? :whistle:

[David Bailey]

What more proof do you need that my earlier post was correct? :whistle:
Maybe you just don't move enough? :na:

[straycat]

It's really just a question of applied mechanics.

Keep connection point closer to the leader & follower's core, and the lead & follow becomes much easier to execute (and with less likelihood of straining backs etc)

Yes - the hand height changes for particular moves, but the 'default' position, where most standard moves start from should not.

[David Bailey]

Am I just weird* to not have a default position then?

Well, yes, obviously - but in dance terms, I mean.

[Caro]

From the point of view of a wcs-er, and not even a good one...

Leaders are told to keep the follow's hand at the same level as her center (solar plexus). Which is slightly higher than the waist.

That's particularly helpful as most moves are linear or start with a linear lead down the line, and hand height is not supposed to change during those (turns excepted obviously). That may be less appropriate for MJ though where changes in the hand height are inherent to a lot of moves (first move, yoyo, catapult, shoulder drop, etc).

[Andy McGregor]

Am I just weird* to not have a default position then?No, you're just wrong.

[David Bailey]

No, you're just wrong.
Possibly.

The thing is, and attempting to be serious for a second, I rarely keep my hand in one position - I try to ensure moves flow smoothly, so that the hand (and body) is in constant motion (well, except when I stop of course :) ).

So I don't really have a default position in MJ, although I do in AT - and, now I think about it, I do in salsa also. And I don't really have the excuse of being a poor dancer in salsa...

On the other hand, if I'm dancing Jango stylee, there is a clear default handhold position - but then, that's reasonable considering the origins of Jango.

So, mmm, I'm not sure what point I'm trying to make now, but I'm sure there was one, somewhere...

[tsh]

I've not been convinced about the whole "hands at waist height" for a long time now. If you lead a move, in my experience, at the "end" of it follows will naturally return their hand to the same place (which varies from follow to follow).

My experience suggests that it's less experienced follows who place their hand at chest height as they step back, and this seems to be related to them trying to lead themselves into a return.

Waist height to me means relaxed, which is something I continually have to work on...

Sean

[Ghost]

Just struck me - where exactly is "waist height"?

[Caro]

Just struck me - where exactly is "waist height"?

:rofl: men.... no wonder :rolleyes:

[Ghost]

:rofl: men.... no wonder :rolleyes:

:na:
Baby doll dresses don't exactly make my life easier in this regard

http://www.envieboutique.com/img/products/DSCN0584cropres63307.JPG

Any guesses where her waist actually is? :confused:

[Caro]

:na:
Baby doll dresses don't exactly make my life easier in this regard


Any guesses where her waist actually is? :confused:


are you serious ???

her waist is about where the kink in her arm is, i.e. elbow level. We'not not talking about mathematical precision here Ghost, just avoid holding her hand at her breast or hip level :rolleyes: ;)

[DavidB]

her waist is about where the kink in her arm is, i.e. elbow levelNot for everyone. My elbow is level with my solar plexus. There is a lot of 6-pack / beer-belly * between that and my waist.

*delete as appropriate

[straycat]

Any guesses where her waist actually is? :confused:

This picture should make it slightly easier.... :whistle:

http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Grounds/7850/3-ehtelgranger13in.jpg

[Ghost]

are you serious ???

her waist is about where the kink in her arm is, i.e. elbow level. We'not not talking about mathematical precision here Ghost, just avoid holding her hand at her breast or hip level :rolleyes: ;)

Now you see I'd have said that was too high, ie you're on her ribs at that point. To me "waist" is between the lowest rib and hips.

However at pretty much every Ceroc class I've been too, waist height seems to be "barely above her belt".

[Caro]

Not for everyone. My elbow is level with my solar plexus

hey welcome back David :clap:

I wasn't infering that waist is always at level with the elbows (although I guess it must be close quite often - you must have short humeri :na: ), I was however infering that is should be fairly easy when you see somebody to figure out where the waist is... From that pic, the easiest point of reference to pick was the kink at the elbow. ;)

[Caro]

Now you see I'd have said that was too high, ie you're on her ribs at that point. To me "waist" is between the lowest rib and hips.

However at pretty much every Ceroc class I've been too, waist height seems to be "barely above her belt".

Well I guess if you want to be pedantic then :rolleyes:, you'll have to define if you mean waist (1. a. The part of the human trunk between the bottom of the rib cage and the pelvis), which is a pretty large region of the body, or waistline (the narrowest part of the waist). Oh and my waistline is exactly at level with my last floatting rib. :na:

[Ghost]

Well I guess if you want to be pedantic then :rolleyes:, you'll have to define if you mean waist (1. a. The part of the human trunk between the bottom of the rib cage and the pelvis), which is a pretty large region of the body, or waistline (the narrowest part of the waist). Oh and my waistline is exactly at level with my last floatting rib. :na:

Oh don't get me wrong I'm not being pedantic - I genuinely don't know which of the two is being referred to in the term "waist height" - and as you say there's a significant difference. :flower:

In practice, I use your definition of waist, but I think Ceroc uses the waistline one (which I'm arguing against in this thread anyway :devil: )

[Caro]

In practice, I use your definition of waist, but I think Ceroc uses the waistline one (which I'm arguing against in this thread anyway :devil: )

I'd say the opposite if fact, (if I wasn't using the center word to avoid confusing people between solar plexus and center of gravity), I'd use the waistline definion as this is a much more precise region (also closer to the center) rather than just 'waist'. I think Ceroc tend to mean waist as in somewhere near or below your bellybutton, as I don't tink anyone in ceroc had ever hold and maintained by hand as high as my waistline level.
But again, while this might be prefered in WCS, I see how using a lower point (bellybutton and lower) might be useful in MJ.

[MartinHarper]

From the point of view of a wcs-er ... Leaders are told to keep the follow's hand at the same level as her center (solar plexus). Which is slightly higher than the waist. ... hand height is not supposed to change during those (turns excepted obviously).

... according to some West Coast teachers. Other West Coast teachers suggest that the hands will naturally be higher (around chest height) when the dancers are furthest away from each other, and lower (around hip height) when the dancers are closest to each other.


If you lead a move, in my experience, at the "end" of it follows will naturally return their hand to the same place (which varies from follow to follow).

Are you talking about free spins here, or something like a first move?

[Ghost]

Are you talking about free spins here, or something like a first move?
Pretty much anything as long as its come to its natural "end"

[Caro]

... according to some West Coast teachers.


true, different teachers might disagree on that. I don't recall many WCS teachers (both from here and the US) being directly specific about where the hand should be (although indirectly as you are often told to set your frame and be as distant as this frame will allow at the end of slot, you will in fact end up with your hand at your center level - that's what J&T teach for example). The specific statement that I recall that 'leaders should keep the follow's hand at level with her center' was from Kyle & Sarah.

[Andy McGregor]

Well I guess if you want to be pedantic then :rolleyes:,


I'd say the opposite if fact, (if I wasn't using the center word to avoid confusing people between solar plexus and center of gravity), I'd use the waistline definion as this is a much more precise region (also closer to the center) rather than just 'waist'. I think Ceroc tend to mean waist as in somewhere near or below your bellybutton, as I don't tink anyone in ceroc had ever hold and maintained by hand as high as my waistline level.
But again, while this might be prefered in WCS, I see how using a lower point (bellybutton and lower) might be useful in MJ.Just being pedantic :innocent:

I do talk about the waist. But I further define it as "guys raise or lower your hand so that the lady's forearm slopes slightly down towards her wrist" and sometimes I say "make sure the lady's wrist is lower than her elbow". I think the important thing is to get this arm angle correct rather than worry about where the lady's waist is - although I do get goosebumps when Caro says "bellybutton" and gives us instruction on where to find her waist :wink:

[NZ Monkey]

... according to some West Coast teachers. Other West Coast teachers suggest that the hands will naturally be higher (around chest height) when the dancers are furthest away from each other, and lower (around hip height) when the dancers are closest to each other.
Robert Royston advocates leading the your partner forward from a high spot (around the solar plexus in an open hold if they're at maximum stretch or the shoulderblade in a closed one) and leading them away from a low point (around the waist). It feels really nice and although I won't go into the details of why as that would take some time to do properly - I'm convicned.

I've also been taught to lead forward from an open hold at waist height as well, but with the proviso that this is simply the easiest way when learning good connection.

[timbp]

I usually try to lead at the girl's waist height.
But I don't like to fight with my followers. In class it is fairly common for me to offer my hand at the follower's waist level while she offers her hand at her breast level. Quite often we wait until one partner decides to meet the other's idea of where to connect (I'm wiinning at about 83%).

Other times I might just accept the follower's hand position. For those with frame, it doesn't matter a huge amount.
For those without frame: last night a follower put her hand at breast height and refused to lower it. During a dance, a lead for her to go back showed she had no frame -- collapsing arm with hand at breast height meant I can honestly say she has firm natural breasts (or at least, her right breast is natural and firm).

[Gadget]

The lower the hand, the closer your partner.

I think that this is one of the reasons that people just starting are taught to lower the hands: it brings them closer. It also provides more of a contrast between a sholder-height hand and a raised hand - unless you are crisp with your hand positions and always come back to the same level, your partner could be confused as to what you are leading.

{... actually... thinking on it, any lead from waist or shoulder level could be led at any point in-between... shoulder height leads normally are pre-cursors to turns; I think that this makes more sense - hip leads will normally 'end' in a block to pivot and bounce back where they came from (/walks) or an extension preperation for a spin.}

I think that it may also help what you are trying to lead: leading the follower's center to move them would be easier if your hand was level with their center. Having a higher lead would be more inclined to twist/bend/stylise the follower's movements. Having a lower lead would be more inclined to move the follower's feet and letting the toroso follow. I think that 'lindy' style stuff is led higher and 'Blues' style is led lower.


Personally I like to dance relativly close, so my 'relaxed' hold is probably just a little bit lower than my partner's hip height to draw them closer.

[straycat]

The lower the hand, the closer your partner.


Hence the saying 'Blues dancers do it with their hands on the floor'?

Coat time.....:whistle: