Dancing out of beat

[Connie]

Ok a bit more advice wanted. Bet you are all sick of my questions by now :blush:

What do you guys do when your dance partner is not dancing to the tune/rhytm of the music being played?
I find it really hard to concentrate of following the lead, if it feels like I am being lead to a totally different song than what's actually being played.

What would be the best way of getting the dance back on track? Should I resist a bit in following, and then (letting go) when on the beat? Totally stop, and then hope it gets back on track when we start again?
Do nothing?

[Ghost]

By far the best trick I know came from Emma :respect: - next time he puts you in a free spin, fudge it to come back out on beat.

A similar trick is to lengthen out a walk etc (mini hijack) to get back on beat

I did say to one lead recently "No sorry, I've lost it" as an invitation to stop and re-start (I had compeltely lost the plot, but she bravely carried on anyway - she is a good lead though and was on beat). Actually I've said that as a lead come to think of it....

Personally I'm against any other "fixing" though. If he's off beat and not dancing to the music, he's got enough problems as it is - any help is likely just going to make his life harder :flower: 'tis only 3 minutes :hug:

[Andy McGregor]

Just go with what he leads. He's driving. How would you feel if your car started slowing down because it thought you were going to fast - or, even worse, sped up because it thought you were a slowcoach.

There's loads of guys out there who have a problem with the beat. But at least they're dancing. Go with the beat they can hear and ignore the music - and ask the guys who can hear the beat so you don't have to dance off the beat too often.

At least those guys who can't hear the beat at all aren't as bad as the guys who think beat 2 is beat 1 :eek:

[NZ Monkey]

Just go with what he leads. He's driving. How would you feel if your car started slowing down because it thought you were going to fast - or, even worse, sped up because it thought you were a slowcoach.

There's loads of guys out there who have a problem with the beat. But at least they're dancing. Go with the beat they can hear and ignore the music - and ask the guys who can hear the beat so you don't have to dance off the beat too often.

At least those guys who can't hear the beat at all aren't as bad as the guys who think beat 2 is beat 1 :eek::yeah:

I had a teacher once who's answer to the very same question was "follow what he's leading and ignore the music. Then remember his face and......".

A little harsh perhaps, but I think you'll find most people do the same to at least one or two people.

[Thetruth]

Ok a bit more advice wanted. Bet you are all sick of my questions by now :blush:

What do you guys do when your dance partner is not dancing to the tune/rhytm of the music being played?
I find it really hard to concentrate of following the lead, if it feels like I am being lead to a totally different song than what's actually being played.

What would be the best way of getting the dance back on track? Should I resist a bit in following, and then (letting go) when on the beat? Totally stop, and then hope it gets back on track when we start again?
Do nothing?

Its no fun dancing off beat...............its like driving a car without the wheel! I'd list those (as suggested by NZ Monkey) and avoid them in future. If they have been cerocing a long time and are off beat then avoid them totally. However, if the lead is learning then suggesting to him or her that they are "slightly off beat" and if they ask for further help point them in the direction of a teacher.

[David Bailey]

Ok a bit more advice wanted. Bet you are all sick of my questions by now :blush:
No, not unless you start asking what foot to step back on in the First Move... :eek:


What do you guys do when your dance partner is not dancing to the tune/rhytm of the music being played?
There are any number of tricks and tips for a leader, but unfortunately, there's not much a follower can do to impose a beat-sense on their partner :sad:

Trying to impose your own timing on your leader is problematic at best. So I'd also recommend just gritting your teeth and accepting it.

Also, it's possible that your partner is not off-beat - he may be syncopating, he may be deliberately dragging things out or speeding them up, and so on. Probably not, to be honest - it's much more likely that he can't dance in time - but it's a possibility.

[Lory]

If its a beginner and they've started off 'in time' but 'lost it' then i'll usually 'back lead' them back in to time.

Before I get shot down in flames, I know backleading is the 8th deadly sin :devil:but 1. I can't bare it :tears: and 2. (if they do have any sense of timing) they usually thank me.:innocent:

If its a long term no hoper, I do as NZ monkey said, I try to grin and bare it and get through it as best as I can but remember 'the face' for future reference! :wink:

[David Bailey]

I try to grin and bare it
Well, no wonder they go off beat then :yum::whistle::wink:

[Lory]

Well, no wonder they go off beat then :yum::whistle::wink:

Note to self.....

You ALWAYS get 'bare' and 'bear' round the wrong way...

...idiot! :rolleyes:

[Connie]

Just go with what he leads. He's driving. How would you feel if your car started slowing down because it thought you were going to fast - or, even worse, sped up because it thought you were a slowcoach.



Wouldnt know, I've got a bit of difficulty finding an instructor willing to teach me. The last one got a bit upset with me because I drove the wrong way around the oneway system at Purley Cross :blush:

[Connie]

It looks so far that the girls are for "fixing it" and the men to grin and bare it........

I think I pick the girls advice this time :whistle:


Seriously though, I find it so so difficult to dance when I am not being lead on the right beat. I think I use the music to support the dance a lot more than I thought. I make such a muddle out of it when it goes off beat, so much so that I managed to step myself over the toes :sick:

[MartinHarper]

I find that a leader who is dancing on the even beats instead of the odd beats fixes himself after a few moves - I've not had anyone lead an entire song on the even beats yet - so I don't see the point in intervening. That said, as a male follow, I'm probably backleading the correct beat without consciously thinking about it.
If a leader's dancing at a different tempo to the music, I struggle, but try to follow. I normally put that down to a leader who can't handle dancing at the actual tempo of the music, so trying to force the issue wouldn't help anyone. If he can't lead at 160bpm, he can't lead at 160bpm.

Having said all that, you talk about a leader not "dancing to the tune/rhythm of the music being played". That seems like a larger thing than merely beat/tempo. Could you give some examples of someone dancing to the wrong tune, or dancing to the wrong rhythm?

[ducasi]

If someone tells you you are dancing on the even beats rather than the odd ones, just tell them you are bringing a bit of West Coast timing to your dancing. ;)

[NZ Monkey]

If someone tells you you are dancing on the even beats rather than the odd ones, just tell them you are bringing a bit of West Coast timing to your dancing. ;)And hope they don't dance WCS themselves and see through your cunning ploy :wink: :na:

[JCB]

I think I pick the girls advice this time :whistle:
Well, here is one girl saying, follow what is led, to whatever drum the leader is hearing in his head! Now remember, this is advice from a beginner, (but I feel I ought to put in my two-pence-worth: it is because I am still learning, the effects are magnified)
Two reasons:
1 - if the leader could hear the beat, he would be leading you to it. If a subtle "nudge" (such as Ghost's suggestion) doesn't get them on track, then you would have to back-lead the whole dance. You wouldn't help the lead. And you would do yourself no favours, getting into bad habits.

2 - Following off-beat is a great way to test / improve your following skills. I find it forces me to focus on feeling the lead. Look at what you said:


I think I use the music to support the dance a lot more than I thought. I make such a muddle out of it when it goes off beat,
So unless you are asked for help, don't. And be wary of helping: my husband finds the beat very hard to find, so I feed it back to him....enter the infamous "bouncing hand!" <shudder> :eek: :na:
While I'm learning, I continue to try to follow exactly what is led. It doesn't help the lead if you don't, and it may improve following skills. And as they often say on this forum, "it is only 3 minutes!" :o :flower:
The lead with a rhythm problem has to realize he has a problem before it can be corrected. My other half has found that only time and repetition helps him to hear the beat. In the meantime, he concentrates on smoothing out the moves and connections, and does the best he can (which is getting pretty good! :hug: ) And he doesn't yank! :awe: (I suspect some "yankers" are panicky, realizing they are behind the beat, and try to "fix" it by hauling their partner around a turn that they started to lead waaay too late.:angry:
After a dance with a rhythm randomiser, why not treat yourself to a dance with a strong lead who is not temporally-challenged, to get back in sync?

[Lost Leader]

Note to self.....

You ALWAYS get 'bare' and 'bear' round the wrong way...

...idiot! :rolleyes:

Thats just one reason we all luv ya! :wink:

[Double Trouble]

Just go with what he leads. He's driving.

No Chance.

I can't stand dancing with anyone if they are not in time to the music. I force them to lead in time by taking over.

This might be the wrong way, but it looks awful when you see some poor follower trying desperately hard to make some kind of sense of a rhythmless numpty.

[Double Trouble]

long term no hoper

:rofl::rofl:What a perfect description:rofl::rofl:

[NZ Monkey]

No Chance.

I can't stand dancing with anyone if they are not in time to the music. I force them to lead in time by taking over.

This might be the wrong way, but it looks awful when you see some poor follower trying desperately hard to make some kind of sense of a rhythmless numpty. So you force them to lead by....um.... not letting them lead? :confused:

It looks equally aweful watching some poor begineer lead trying to deal with someone who isn't playing their part as well :flower:

I know it's painful to watch and even more painful to be stuck dancing with someone who simply can't hear the beat, but no about of backleading is going to affect his ability to hear music. His ears are not connected to his hands, and if he can't hear a beat in the first place he'll have a hard job connecting your "corrections" to his mistakes. What I think is more likely to happen is that you'll feel like you're not even trying to follow to him (if he notices - I accept there are many that won't) and everyone will have a much rougher dance.

[JCB]

...I can't stand dancing with anyone if they are not in time to the music. I force them to lead in time by taking over.

...but not in a lesson?
Otherwise there isn't much chance the instructor will notice the problem.

[David Bailey]

I force them to lead in time by taking over.
That must be some novel use of the term "lead" then. :na:


This might be the wrong way
It definitely is.


, but it looks awful when you see some poor follower trying desperately hard to make some kind of sense of a rhythmless numpty.
That's life. It's a lead-and-follow dance; the leader defines the overall terms and parameters of the dance.

If he defines it poorly, that's unfortunate, but it's not a wrestling match. If you're not prepared to subordinate control that much, then you should learn to lead - which, effectively, is what you're doing in that instance already.

[Lynn]

Follow the lead. He's not deliberately dancing off beat, he's probably a relative beginner and is struggling enough as it is.

I would try to 'nudge' him back on the beat, in case he's just lost it because he's been so focused on a move, but if he really goes off it again I wouldn't keep doing that and I wouldn't force him back on beat - that would only make it harder for him.

Totally different if its someone I know and dance with regularly (or am likely to dance with regularly) and I know they are a relative beginner, I'd probably say 'we're a bit off the beat' and back lead an arm jive to get him back on the beat. I'd make sure I said 'we' so he wouldn't feel as bad. (But then as I'm 'crew' at our local venues I can do that.)

If a stranger at a freestyle I'd follow his timing. Much as its hard to dance against the music, its only one track and its not going to do me any harm, but spending the whole dance 'fighting' with the lead isn't pleasant for either of us, at least if I'm following him he is probably enjoying the dance even if I'm not!

[MartinHarper]

I guess the question is, when dancing with folks who lack basic skills such as being on-beat, would I prefer to look like a bad dancer, or be a bad dancer?

[bigdjiver]

I guess the question is, when dancing with folks who lack basic skills such as being on-beat, would I prefer to look like a bad dancer, or be a bad dancer?Can you be a bad dancer and not look like a bad dancer?
If you cannot your choiced are to bea bad dancer, and look like one, or be a good dancer that is looking like a bad dancer.

A good follow follows.

[NZ Monkey]

Can you be a bad dancer and not look like a bad dancer?
I can think of at least one person who looks fantastic when she dances, but who makes you feel like you're wrestling an angry gorilla when you dance with her. She looks great but doesn't really follow. Is she a bad dancer?

[under par]

Can you be a bad dancer and not look like a bad dancer?
.
Yes!

there are one or 2 who can give the impression to most that they are half decent... but they are in fact fairly poor.

[under par]

well that 2 of us that think so..

At this time of night you are out-numbered BigDJiver

[Thetruth]

I can think of at least one person who looks fantastic when she dances, but who makes you feel like you're wrestling an angry gorilla when you dance with her. She looks great but doesn't really follow. Is she a bad dancer?

It would depend if you are actually leading her, perhaps she may think you are a bad lead and it may feel like wrestling a gorilla because she is not being controlled with any direction. However, there are some follows who are terrible at following due to lack of experience mainly. This is where a follow could seek a private lesson rather than ask others in rotation at class.
I have been watching youtube ceroc and mj dancers and one thing in the social dance scene that is rampant.............most of the male leads hold their lead hand at chest height! So it is little wonder that any follow can follow, yet the leads complain about a lack of a good follow (often on the forum), when it is actually them that is the problem....................:nice:

[NZ Monkey]

It would depend if you are actually leading her, perhaps she may think you are a bad lead and it may feel like wrestling a gorilla because she is not being controlled with any direction. However, there are some follows who are terrible at following due to lack of experience mainly. This is where a follow could seek a private lesson rather than ask others in rotation at class.
I have been watching youtube ceroc and mj dancers and one thing in the social dance scene that is rampant.............most of the male leads hold their lead hand at chest height! So it is little wonder that any follow can follow, yet the leads complain about a lack of a good follow (often on the forum), when it is actually them that is the problem....................:nice:I'll just have to let the forum ladies who know me jump to my defence there if any can be bothered and thinks I'm worthy enough. If no-one does then I'll just have to sit back and cry into my milk. :tears:

Of course, the fact that it takes literally twice the amount of force to move her than anyone I've ever danced with is no way an indication that I may have a point......

[David Bailey]

I can think of at least one person who looks fantastic when she dances, but who makes you feel like you're wrestling an angry gorilla when you dance with her.
:yeah:
Hmmm, I wonder if it's the same person...? :devil:

[David Bailey]

It would depend if you are actually leading her, perhaps she may think you are a bad lead and it may feel like wrestling a gorilla because she is not being controlled with any direction.
I've not danced with NZ Monkey, but he certainly looks like a good dancer - and from what others tell me, he also feels like one too.


However, there are some follows who are terrible at following due to lack of experience mainly.
The follower I'm thinking of is higly-experienced - a competition-winner, in fact - but still literally a nightmare to dance with.


I have been watching youtube ceroc and mj dancers and one thing in the social dance scene that is rampant.............most of the male leads hold their lead hand at chest height!
I often hold my lead hand at around chest height - for example, in close hold - what's wrong with that? :confused:

[Lynn]

Yep - have had the 'he looks good' about a lead to discover 'but isn't comfortable to dance with' a few times. And yes sometimes ones who are perceived to be 'very good' - but maybe they are only good when dancing with their regular partners. (Maybe why some 'good' dancers like to dance in their little 'cliques' because they can't actually dance as well with less familiar or less experienced partners?)

The other way round - some leads don't look good at all, but feel lovely to follow.

[Zuhal]

In my humble experience women are better at finding and keeping the beat than the men. At risk of being controversial they also have slightly less to do.

I have been dancing a few years in various styles but at least once per night I have a problem finding the beat.

Up to this point ;
I have selected a partner making sure to include people who have sat out for ages.
Been rejected by her and her friend
Been accepted by no 3 and negotiated our way to a space through the drink fetchers and gossiping couples. (some potential for listening to the music here but ...)
now this unfamiliar tune has me moving but I know its wrong. so I say
"Can you just help me with the beat" If I do not know this partner the bubble comes out of their head thinking "I've got three mins of teeth gritting coming up"
If I do know the partner they just help and we have a nice dance.

The Ladies are better at it than us so ask for help.

Zuhal

[MartinHarper]

Can you be a bad dancer and not look like a bad dancer?

I probably should have said, "dance badly vs look bad". For example, if I'm leading a novice follower I can try to look good by overleading her, so she "gets" the moves and we look ok, even though overleading is a bad habit. Alternatively, I can lead her correctly, and allow her to make mistakes, even though that probably doesn't make us look so good.
Back on topic, the same choice applies to backleading a novice lead vs going with it. Mind you, the true dance gods look fabulous regardless of who they're dancing with. Very jealousy-invoking.

[bigdjiver]

I can think of at least one person who looks fantastic when she dances, but who makes you feel like you're wrestling an angry gorilla when you dance with her. She looks great but doesn't really follow. Is she a bad dancer?


Yes!

there are one or 2 who can give the impression to most that they are half decent... but they are in fact fairly poor.


I probably should have said, "dance badly vs look bad". For example, if I'm leading a novice follower I can try to look good by overleading her, so she "gets" the moves and we look ok, even though overleading is a bad habit. Alternatively, I can lead her correctly, and allow her to make mistakes, even though that probably doesn't make us look so good.
Back on topic, the same choice applies to backleading a novice lead vs going with it. Mind you, the true dance gods look fabulous regardless of who they're dancing with. Very jealousy-invoking.There is a difference between good dancer and good partner dancer, and a difference between good dancer and good lead or good follow.
There is the "man the frame, the woman the picture" style, and the man can look suitably wooden, but nobody looks at him. Alternately the man can be "all flash" and the woman can be little more than the nearest spectator. You can see this in some "dance with a stranger" comps, and I can believe that that is the best dance possible in that situation. If the partnership cannot agree where the beat is those styles may be the best dance possible too.
One reaction to an impossible lead is to practise triple spins and shines, be in no hurry to take the guys hand.

[Ghost]

I'll just have to let the forum ladies who know me jump to my defence there if any can be bothered and thinks I'm worthy enough. If no-one does then I'll just have to sit back and cry into my milk. :tears:

Of course, the fact that it takes literally twice the amount of force to move her than anyone I've ever danced with is no way an indication that I may have a point......
The simian one has a gentle but clear lead :respect: (Good enough to be able to continue to lead me even when I was blinded by certain women with flash cameras :na: )

[Amir]

What do you guys do when your dance partner is not dancing to the tune/rhytm of the music being played?


This is like answering 'what do you do when someone is talking to you and you are totally bored?' There is no one answer since every situation is different.

If it is a close friend it might be fine to say 'ok, bored now, lets talk about this..'
If it is someone you will never meet again, and they are leaving in a couple of minutes, you might just wait it out.
If it is someone you just met but will talk with for a long time you may try to change the subject without them noticing.
If it is someone you speak with often, and they always bore you by talking about cars, then one day you might probaby say something like 'I love you and want to keep talking with you, but I hate talking about cars. Can we just avoid it? I've had a difficult experience with a particular car.'

It depends on the person, the ego and the situation, but I would try and get people to dance on beat when possible. Yes you should be following, but when you agreed to follow you probably assumed you would be following a dance to the music. Dancing to the beat in your partners head is not what you signed up for.

Unless he says 'Hi. I don't like this music. I have a great track playing in my head though, would you like to dance to it?' Then it is your call.

[Twirly]

I'll just have to let the forum ladies who know me jump to my defence there if any can be bothered and thinks I'm worthy enough. If no-one does then I'll just have to sit back and cry into my milk. :tears:

Of course, the fact that it takes literally twice the amount of force to move her than anyone I've ever danced with is no way an indication that I may have a point......

I'll vouch for NZ's fabulous leading skills, even though he did dessert us :tears: Smooth, clear and inventive :drool:

now I just have to hope it wasn't me he was talking about... :sick:

[DavidB]

The first thing you should do is make sure it is not you that is on the wrong beat. No matter how good you think you are, or how bad you think your partner is, it is still a 50% chance that you are wrong.

[robd]

The first thing you should do is make sure it is not you that is on the wrong beat.

:yeah:

I've had a few dances with people who are accomplished and experienced dancers and it's as though we are listening to different records. Of course this may not equate necessarily to being on the wrong beat but it does make me realise I shouldn't always assume it's the other person that's wrong.

[nebula]

No Chance.

I can't stand dancing with anyone if they are not in time to the music. I force them to lead in time by taking over.

This might be the wrong way, but it looks awful when you see some poor follower trying desperately hard to make some kind of sense of a rhythmless numpty.

Have been in this situation last saturday. a fairly big chap (and he was rough!) - totally off beat. Started the dance, followed all the good advice - as in followed what he was leading - at 2,5 beats of his "leading" :confused: to 1 beat of the song.
Then realised that the way he was pulling me into the spin - one foot was still coming forward when I was literally thrown off in the other direction could very well end up in my injury. The best tactics that seemed to work was resisting the pull. :rolleyes:
Risk assess - if it is just uncomfortable and probably doesn't look good - remember his face for the future but maybe bear with him. :sick:But I would certainly actively and rather forcefully resist if faced with similar situation now simply to avoid the accident that's waiting to happen:sad:.

[Ghost]

Then realised that the way he was pulling me into the spin - one foot was still coming forward when I was literally thrown off in the other direction could very well end up in my injury. The best tactics that seemed to work was resisting the pull. :rolleyes:
Risk assess - if it is just uncomfortable and probably doesn't look good - remember his face for the future but maybe bear with him. :sick:But I would certainly actively and rather forcefully resist if faced with similar situation now simply to avoid the accident that's waiting to happen:sad:.

Given previous comments about backleading entire dances etc

Can I strongly recommend that "forcefully resisting" is not used throughout a dance :flower: It's safer for everyone, you, him, the people around you to just politely say "I'm sorry this isn't working" and end the dance.

One-offs to cover "opps moments" sure. But no more than that.

[David Bailey]

Have been in this situation last saturday.
{ snip story }

But it wasn't the "dancing offbeat" that was the problem, was it? It was the "dangerous and rough pulling", yes?

Different situation, I'd say.

[Ghost]

But it wasn't the "dancing offbeat" that was the problem, was it? It was the "dangerous and rough pulling", yes?

Different situation, I'd say.

Ironically Bruce Lee called it "broken rythym". By alternating leading on half beats and full beats as well as upbeats and downbeats, Nebula is effectively mid-way through one movement when he tries to take her into another - she's off-balance, unprepared, her momentum's all messed up etc. It's a really good technique in a fight - less so in a dance :blush: . It doesn't really need excessive force, it's like slipping on a banana skin.

[Alice]

The simian one has a gentle but clear lead :respect: (Good enough to be able to continue to lead me even when I was blinded by certain women with flash cameras :na: )
:devil:




:wink:

[Thetruth]

I'll just have to let the forum ladies who know me jump to my defence there if any can be bothered and thinks I'm worthy enough. If no-one does then I'll just have to sit back and cry into my milk. :tears:

Of course, the fact that it takes literally twice the amount of force to move her than anyone I've ever danced with is no way an indication that I may have a point......

Hey NZ Monkey, you focused on one point of my post as though it was the only point. Don't take it to heart, I was only putting the suggestion out there....................................as I did with the follow dancing like a gorilla in the same post......................................just don't spill your milk :what:

[Thetruth]

The follower I'm thinking of is higly-experienced - a competition-winner, in fact - but still literally a nightmare to dance with.

Maybe she thinks the guys are a nightmare to dance with because of their lead.......................competition winner at what level?? If Advanced then perhaps the problem is with the social dance leads.

[Thetruth]

The first thing you should do is make sure it is not you that is on the wrong beat. No matter how good you think you are, or how bad you think your partner is, it is still a 50% chance that you are wrong.

Totally agree with you on your post. In private lessons with my coach and partner, I'd swear I was doing it right and the problem was my partner......alas it was me on occasions and she(my dancepartner) sometimes would feel it was me, only to be told it was her by our coach. The best thing about this is the problem is solved and we can move on........................

[NZ Monkey]

Hey NZ Monkey, you focused on one point of my post as though it was the only point. Don't take it to heart, I was only putting the suggestion out there....................................as I did with the follow dancing like a gorilla in the same post......................................just don't spill your milk :what:Only focusing on one point is the natural consequence of you only making one point worth responding to.

But since you seem to want more than that:
As to leaders holding their partners hand at chest height.....do any other leads out there find that a fairly large number of women raise their hand up there on their own? If you don't use your thumb then in a normal grip the man can't do anything to prevent her raising her hand as high as she likes. Sometimes leading from there is just the path of least resistence. :devil:

NZ Monkey signing off, after blaming followers for all the wrongs in the world in true Supervillian style. Mwahahahahahahahahahahahaha! :na:

[Thetruth]

Only focusing on one point is the natural consequence of you only making one point worth responding to.

But since you seem to want more than that:
As to leaders holding their partners hand at chest height.....do any other leads out there find that a fairly large number of women raise their hand up there on their own? If you don't use your thumb then in a normal grip the man can't do anything to prevent her raising her hand as high as she likes. Sometimes leading from there is just the path of least resistence. :devil:

NZ Monkey signing off, after blaming followers for all the wrongs in the world in true Supervillian style. Mwahahahahahahahahahahahaha! :na:

So touchy and sensitive in your post replies.........................shouldn't take it to heart so much, some people on this forum have advised you have a lovely lead. So lap it up.
Why do the follows get blamed for the hands up high, they are not leading?? Even if they lift their hands, move it back to waist level. Its the leads job to lead, take charge, the last bastion of male dominance! :wink:

[David Bailey]

Why do the follows get blamed for the hands up high, they are not leading?? Even if they lift their hands, move it back to waist level. Its the leads job to lead, take charge, the last bastion of male dominance! :wink:
Sorry, but this sounds like incredibly dumb advice.

It's not a wrestling match, for God's sake, it's a dance. :rolleyes:

Leads are invitational, not commanding. If a follower refuses your invitation, then she refuses; and she may have good reasons for doing so (e.g. injury), so a good lead should respect that decision and work within the constraints of what the follower accepts.

In this case, If a follower clearly wants to raise her hand up high, then I'd work around it - for example, either by switching to moves that work in that position, or by leaving that hand alone and using other leads. I certainly wouldn't force her hand to a place she's not comfortable with.

[MartinHarper]

Leads are invitational, not commanding.

I thought that depended on the lead and the leader.

[David Bailey]

I thought that depended on the lead and the leader.
OK, "proper" leads are invitational, how's that?

[JCB]

This is like answering 'what do you do when someone is talking to you and you are totally bored?'
<Conversation heard in background:>
:innocent:- Don’t do it!
:devil:- But it isn’t quite like that!
:innocent:- So, you are planning to pit your vast experience of modern jive (less than a year, with a couple of lessons each month :whistle:) against his years of experience, dancing and teaching dance?!
:devil:- I am not questioning his knowledge of dance! But you have to admit I do know quite a lot about beginner dancers who are rhythmically challenged.
:innocent:- Don’t do it! This is Amir we are talking about! Tsk! I can see the neg reps flooding in! Are you listening to me?!...
- AAAAAAAAArgh! :devil: :devil: :devil:
I doubt anyone actually dances to the beat of an imaginary drummer intentionally. An inability to hear the musical beat consistently is not self-obsession, laziness or contrariness. It is an involuntary affliction! So let me replace the "boring conversation" in the analogy with a stammer, and see what happens. I admit there is a problem with my analogy: most stammerers tend to be painfully aware that they stammer, while a frightening number of leaders with terpsichorean arrhythmia don't appear to notice. So we have to pretend this stammerer hasn’t a clue:

There is no one answer since every situation is different.

1) If it is a close friend it might be fine to say 'O.K., your stammer is driving me nuts, let me do the talking for a while...'
2) If it is someone you will never meet again, and they are leaving in a couple of minutes, you might just wait it out.
3) If it is someone you just met but will talk with for a long time you may try to help them along without them noticing.
4) If it is someone you speak with often, and they always stammer, then one day you might probably say something like 'I love you and want to keep talking with you, but I hate your stammering. Can we just avoid it? I've had a difficult experience with Gareth Gates.'

I haven’t heard anything to convince me that during a lesson I should do anything other than follow what is led to the best of my ability. I accept the point, that in a freestyle, there are a number of different situations, calling for different responses.
But why hasn’t anyone suggested (gently) asking the lost leaders if they are having difficulty hearing the beat? :flower:
:innocent: Great! Just great! I hope you are happy, you little devil! Fat chance of getting into a Jango workshop now!!!:tears:

[stairman]

I haven’t heard anything to convince me that during a lesson I should do anything other than follow what is led to the best of my ability.

I accept the point, that in a freestyle, there are a number of different situations, calling for different responses.

But why hasn’t anyone suggested (gently) asking the lost leaders if they are having difficulty hearing the beat? :flower:


:yeah:

[Twirly]

But why hasn’t anyone suggested (gently) asking the lost leaders if they are having difficulty hearing the beat? :flower:
:innocent:

Probably because that would be offering unsolicited advice/criticism, which after yanking, bouncing, backleading, etc is probably about the 6th or 7th deadly sin accoring to forum "wisdom".

If you knew the person well, it might be possible to do it, but if it's just some random person who's asked you to dance, it could be seen as rather rude. And you'd have to be damned sure (as someone else said above) that it was them who was dancing off the beat, and not you.

Besides, everyone has off days. I've danced with regular partners who are normally fine, and wondered what song they were actually listening to, as it certainly wasn't what I thought the DJ was playing :what: But I've just got on with it and made the best of it. They've been back to their usual excellent selves the week after. :nice:

There are also beginners who struggle with this, and who improve over time. Even if I dance with them every couple of weeks, it's still only 3 minutes, and I'll get plenty of other good dances of an evening (usually). It's often quite nice watching them improve - once they've mastered a few moves, maybe they'll actually begin to realise that there actually is a beat they're supposed to be dancing to! It's a lot to take in when you first start out...

Anyway, why should we expect every dance to be perfect? (uh oh, could that be a whole other thread?)

[David Bailey]

Probably because that would be offering unsolicited advice/criticism, which after yanking, bouncing, backleading, etc is probably about the 6th or 7th deadly sin accoring to forum "wisdom".
During a dance, yes.

But I don't believe there's a forum opinion on what you can / should talk about afterwards however - there's nothing to stop you chatting about dancing to people when you're not dancing.

There's a lovely dancer (follower) at Ceroc London, one of my favourite partners, who had real problems feeling the rhythm 10 years ago - she was great in all other ways, but not in the rhythm stakes. Now, she's got the rhythm, and she's pretty much perfect. So these things can improve given time.

[killingtime]

Probably because that would be offering unsolicited advice/criticism, which after yanking, bouncing, backleading, etc is probably about the 6th or 7th deadly sin accoring to forum "wisdom".

But I totally agree with this. I'm not there to try to advise people on how I think they should dance at a freestyle, I'm just there to dance. If someone wants my advice I'd give it to them but otherwise I'll shut my pie hole.

I can't offer much advice for followers with out-of-time leads. Ghost offered some good "interpret" advice and I agree with the general male ( :rolleyes: ) answer of dance to the lead's time but I get why that might be annoying.

Err...

[Dreadful Scathe]

<Conversation heard in background:>

Stop that, it's like reading a Stewart38 post :)

[TA Guy]

I remember starting and learning the moves and having absolutely no idea what the correct beat was. I know for a fact that I was pretty bad at the beat thing for quite a while. Some people just have two left feet, or in this case, two left ears.

Having said that, the worse offenders I come across are actually good dancers who absolutely refuse to dance to the correct beat of fast music. It's obviously for various reasons, and as a lead you put up with it, mangle your own dancing so some sort of semi-enjoyable loppop'ing is got out of it.

This is why I smile when people say things like 'the best dancers are in the Blues room'. Sometimes they are, and sometimes they arn't. MJ is a wide canvas and it... all... depends... :)

[Amir]

[SIZE=1][COLOR=Silver]
I doubt anyone actually dances to the beat of an imaginary drummer intentionally.

Hey I doubt most people are boring intentionally either.* I still prefer my analogy, since at times you put up with someone who is boring, and at other times you don't, and it is your own personal judgment call. Not hearing the beat is not an affliction. It is lack of awareness, which can be helped by drawing someone’s attention to it.

Speaking from experience, I had a partner who used to help me find the beat, and partly thanks to her I now find it easy. It was not a problem that would ever have been addressed in a normal class.

Some people are good at giving advice, and if you are one of them, and think you could help someone without hurting or offending them, then go for it. I would prefer to see people go through a stage of bouncing their hand to the beat rather than not dancing to the beat at all.

The are countless reasons why it may or may not be appropriate to say something, so any one answer to these kinds of questions will be wrong much of the time. More often than not though I would suggest backleading, and if that doesn't work, gently saying something.




*Incedently, at times I do dance to the beat of an imaginary drummer. He is sometimes better than the real one. Also, Milton Erikson and Noam Chomsky are two people who admit to being boring on purpose, one as a hynotist and one to avoid a personality cult.

[Dan]

Some people are good at giving advice, and if you are one of them, and think you could help someone without hurting or offending them, then go for it. I would prefer to see people go through a stage of bouncing their hand to the beat rather than not dancing to the beat at all.

The are countless reasons why it may or may not be appropriate to say something, so any one answer to these kinds of questions will be wrong much of the time.

:clap::clap:

At last one teacher who is saying that he is still seeking the answers like the rest of us rather than banging on about absolute right ways of doing things.

Some things work better for some people. Some things work most of the time. Teachers should on the whole encourage people to take up ideas to test and explore rather than dish out 'gospel truth'. What works for them personally and what they have discovered over years of practice may not work at all for someone else. By all means teach it but you cannot say that this is the only way to do things.

[nebula]

But it wasn't the "dancing offbeat" that was the problem, was it? It was the "dangerous and rough pulling", yes?

Different situation, I'd say.
He was dangerously rough because being so totally off beat he was trying to overcompensate by trying to make me move off-beat, too. That was the root of the problem - so, no, it wasn't a different situation.

[MartinHarper]

He was dangerously rough because being so totally off beat he was trying to overcompensate by trying to make me move off-beat, too. That was the root of the problem - so, no, it wasn't a different situation.

You said you were following the beat he was leading, at least initially. How come he wasn't succeeding at making you move off-beat? If that makes any sense.

(one of these days I'll get a dance with a dangerous leader, and I'll understand this kind of post)

[DavidY]

Is there always just one danceable beat?

999 times out of a thousand MJ tracks maybe, but always?

Granted you could tell if you had the musical score in front of you - but we don't, and have to rely on our ears.

If the musicians make the 1st and 3rd beats equally strong (or the difference is that 1st beats have x instrument but not y and 3rd beats have y instrument but not x) then it's a more subjective thing.

Especially if it's an instrumental track with not much in the way of phrasing, for instance.

As an example, some tracks start with a few instruments playing, and you find a beat, then more instruments come in and you realise you were on the wrong beat after all. But it shows that you couldn't tell from one part of the music.

[Whitebeard]

I'm afraid beats bore me to death. I just dance to the music to the best of my ability.

Granted; some tracks consist of little more than boomatty bangatty beats. I avoid them like the plauge, as also those dancers afflicted with the dreaded driving vertical bounce; so far as I possibly can.

So it may be that Connie would find me offbeat as I attempt to respond to and interpret the music within the constraints of our (virtual in this case) connection. So I'm not going thumpitty, thumpitty, thump to a constant count; I'm accelerating, decellerating, floating, hanging, dreaming even, as I lead my partner into a move challenged dance.

[nebula]

You said you were following the beat he was leading, at least initially. How come he wasn't succeeding at making you move off-beat? If that makes any sense.

(one of these days I'll get a dance with a dangerous leader, and I'll understand this kind of post)
I certainly was trying to... :what: at first...:wink:
I only started resisting because I realised the danger - does that make any more sense?

[bigdjiver]

I was dancing with a first timer last week and she said "Oh good, you're dancing slowly.":confused:
As far as I was concerned I was just concentrating on leading her and adapting to her. We were doing the moves smoothly, I felt connected. I still have no idea whether I was dancing to the beat, all I know is that it was working beautifully, I was enjoying it, and she appeared to be. I just trusted my instincts and carried on, and still have no idea if I was in time or not.

[JCB]

Guys, if you know you need help, ask for it! :flower: (Here is a hint: if you are a leader who thinks every follower in the world back-leads, then maybe....:really: :flower:)

Then I would agree wholeheartedly with Amir’s advice to back-lead the beat. No-one but my husband has ever asked. (but, then, tact isn’t a skill I have to any great degree)

Nebula, surely the problem is still the leader treating the follower like a bit of machinery that isn’t behaving as he thinks it should, and tries to muscle his way through? (this kind of Neanderthal probably isn’t generally that great with machinery either, applying the “if in doubt, get a bigger hammer” approach to virtually any DIY project he faces. )
The dancing out of time just makes it harder to protect yourself as a follower, because the lead is hard to predict. If the out-of-time lead were a gentle invitation (thank you DavidJames!:respect:), rather than an aggressive “final demand,” our limbs would be safe from harm.
Until I get a more convincing argument, I think I will continue as I have been.
I try a couple of gentle “nudges” to get back on track. A couple of times, when that didn’t work, I have found the courage (with some-one I have chatted with in classes,) to say something like ”I’m finding the rhythm on this track is a bit hard to follow.” (even though in one case the bass-line was thumping away like a Harley on idle! :whistle:) If he shakes his head dismissively, I shut up, and let him drive.

If the leader doesn’t realize he has a problem, I don’t see how my attempt to “fix” things can end up as anything other than a stylized wrestling match. Besides, I am not that great a follower. I have no formal musical training. And I am still a beginner. I’ll leave rhythm adjustments to the experts. And should I find myself on the dance floor with a rhythm-less cave-man, I will leave, explaining that my BUPA cover doesn’t extend to him. :rolleyes:
Nebula, (or anyone who has been a yankee, as in dance partner to a yanker, not a player on a NY baseball team), do you find the advice, “make your arm limp” useful? If so, what am I doing wrong? My brief attempts at “noodle-arm” garnered me a sore elbow, then a sore wrist (hyper-extended joints). I feel safer with a lot of constant springy resistance.

[Thetruth]

Sorry, but this sounds like incredibly dumb advice.

It's not a wrestling match, for God's sake, it's a dance. :rolleyes:

Leads are invitational, not commanding. If a follower refuses your invitation, then she refuses; and she may have good reasons for doing so (e.g. injury), so a good lead should respect that decision and work within the constraints of what the follower accepts.

In this case, If a follower clearly wants to raise her hand up high, then I'd work around it - for example, either by switching to moves that work in that position, or by leaving that hand alone and using other leads. I certainly wouldn't force her hand to a place she's not comfortable with.

What a load of codswallop......................:wink:

[Ghost]

“make your arm limp” useful? If so, what am I doing wrong? My brief attempts at “noodle-arm” garnered me a sore elbow, then a sore wrist (hyper-extended joints). I feel safer with a lot of constant springy resistance.
Going limp is only good in the short term. If you do it throughout a dance he can try to "fix the problem" by applying more and more force! Springy reistance is much safer. The other big thing I've found is to control the distance between you. Try staying in a bit closer (if you don't know check-checks try asking some of the women where you dance).

[nebula]

Nebula, surely the problem is still the leader treating the follower like a bit of machinery that isn’t behaving as he thinks it should, and tries to muscle his way through? (this kind of Neanderthal probably isn’t generally that great with machinery either, applying the “if in doubt, get a bigger hammer” approach to virtually any DIY project he faces. )
The dancing out of time just makes it harder to protect yourself as a follower, because the lead is hard to predict. If the out-of-time lead were a gentle invitation (thank you DavidJames!:respect:), rather than an aggressive “final demand,” our limbs would be safe from harm.
What a brilliant description!!! Neanderthal with a big hammer - that picture will stay with me :D. Unfortunately, in my case, there was nothing "gentle" in his "invitation"...:sick:


Nebula, (or anyone who has been a yankee, as in dance partner to a yanker, not a player on a NY baseball team), do you find the advice, “make your arm limp” useful? If so, what am I doing wrong? My brief attempts at “noodle-arm” garnered me a sore elbow, then a sore wrist (hyper-extended joints). I feel safer with a lot of constant springy resistance
I find the limp arm counter-productive, as Ghost perfectly described:

If you do it throughout a dance he can try to "fix the problem" by applying more and more force! Springy reistance is much safer.
Besides, I don't like limp arm per se, so to make one makes me psychologically sick!!!:rofl:

[Raul]

It is said that you dance (1) with your partner (2) to the music (3) with the floor - in that order.

Unless you are connected with your partner, it is a waste of time if your sense of musicality however great does not match hers or you move your feet beautifully. Musicality without connection = missing the essence of the dance i.m.o.

So out of beat can be ok.

[Lou]

It is said that you dance (1) with your partner (2) to the music (3) with the floor - in that order.
:rolleyes: It is said? By who?

Blimey - is this forum getting vaguer or what? :eek:

[David Bailey]

:rolleyes: It is said? By who?
Raul. Just up there, look!
You even quoted it... :rolleyes: :whistle:

Oh, and it's "whom" :na:

[bigdjiver]

...Unless you are connected with your partner, it is a waste of time if your sense of musicality however great does not match hers or you move your feet beautifully. Musicality without connection = missing the essence of the dance i.m.o.

So out of beat can be ok.Itis possible to dance without any music - I have done it, and it felt wonderful. If it possible to dance to a tune in the leaders head, then it is possible to dance to a different beat, even to a different song. There are some tracks that just do not command my respect, and I am not knowingly listening to the music. I think I may be dancing to the beat automatically, I may not, but if the dance seems to be working for my partner, I do not particularly care.

[Lou]

Oh, and it's "whom" :na:
:blush: So 'tis. The point remains, though. :na: Let the lovely Raul back up his claims! :D

I can't help dancing to the music, no matter if I'm dancing with a numpty with the musical interpretation skills of a dishmop and the rhythm of a centipede with 37 wooden legs . :rolleyes:

[Whitebeard]

:blush: So 'tis. The point remains, though. :na: Let the lovely Raul back up his claims! :D

I can't help dancing to the music, no matter if I'm dancing with a numpty with the musical interpretation skills of a dishmop and the rhythm of a centipede with 37 wooden legs . :rolleyes:

Ooh-er. Didn't know I was that interesting !!

(It's designer stubble now - so less like a dishmop.)

[Lou]

(It's designer stubble now - so less like a dishmop.):rofl: :worthy: Oh, I do miss you! :hug: But it's a bit far to get to Gloucestershire from here.

[Raul]

It is said by a couple of my Tango teachers. This is a dance where you do not step on every beat, there are lots of pauses and playing by one dancer or the other (or both) and you listen to the partner even more than the music.

Sorry to bore you with tango again.

[Raul]

Itis possible to dance without any music - I have done it, and it felt wonderful. If it possible to dance to a tune in the leaders head, then it is possible to dance to a different beat, even to a different song.

:rofl:
one or two of the frequently played tracks are just pants.

btw Beethoven was deaf when he wrote some of his best works.

[Lou]

It is said by a couple of my Tango teachers. .
:rofl:

Best. Response. Ever.

:rolleyes: Whyever didn't you just say you were talking about Tango? :D Of course it doesn't matter if you Tango off the beat. Isn't it just like walking, anyway?

[Raul]

:rofl:

Best. Response. Ever.

:rolleyes: Whyever didn't you just say you were talking about Tango? :D Of course it doesn't matter if you Tango off the beat. Isn't it just like walking, anyway?

I am glad I made you laugh. :grin:


:rofl:

Best. Response. Ever.



No. I take my hat to


It is possible to dance without any music - I have done it, and it felt wonderful. If it possible to dance to a tune in the leaders head, then it is possible to dance to a different beat, even to a different song. There are some tracks that just do not command my respect, and I am not knowingly listening to the music.

[Ghost]

Itis possible to dance without any music - I have done it, and it felt wonderful.
:yeah: One of my favoruite dances was to 15 mins silence while the DJ tried to figure out why the music wasn't playing

(Oh and if we're straying into Tango, the DJ at one club has taking to putting significant pauses between tracks so I've taken to dancing in the silence :awe: )


If it possible to dance to a tune in the leaders head, then it is possible to dance to a different beat, even to a different song.
Yup - I've had women at Ceroc complain they don't like the song that's being played so I've asked them what they'd like to dance to instead :wink:

[Lou]

I am glad I made you laugh. :grin:
S'alright! Don't mention it :wink:

[Let's Dance]

There is this guy at the venue i dance at on a wednesday that sounds pretty much like you have experienced. I dance with him atleast once every week, but he totaly dances off beat! The majority of the dance i feel like i'm being ragged around the dance floor :what:. I would say no to dancing with him again, but i feel really really rude for saying no to a dance haha. It was extreamly off putting at first, especialy when i first joined. I used to try to resist eg... hold my spins out, take a little while longer doing what he wanted me to do, just anything to try and get the dance back on beat, but now i just let him lead me how he wants :yum:, Always off beat, but when i dance with him, i have learnt to just block out the music, and as others have said, just concentrate on the beat "he's hearing". After all, the song isn't that long, and before you know it, the song has finished =].

[nebula]

Maybe I am being rude/conceited/whatever, but once I have danced with a yanker guy so totally off beat, I simply will avoid him - why subject yourself to unpleasant experience?:what:
As so many people said before - life's too short. If you started dancing and realised he was off-beat, fine, let him lead. But if you KNOW that he is dancing to whatever music he is hearing, not paying the slightest attention to his partner's moves, style or timing, then find somebody else to dance with! :wink:
I have danced with a guy, who was also off-beat, but very considerate of my timing, and it was, actually, quite a pleasant dance. He wasn't trying to yank me to his own beat, let me finish my spins, let me do my styling - totally different attitude and, consequently, experience.:flower:
I think I might be contradicting my own earlier post :whistle:, but it now occurs to me that off-beat on its own isn't the biggest of evils - couple it with a yanker and you've got a lethal combination!:angry:

[Achaeco]

Just go with what he leads. He's driving. How would you feel if your car started slowing down because it thought you were going to fast - or, even worse, sped up because it thought you were a slowcoach.

There's loads of guys out there who have a problem with the beat. But at least they're dancing. Go with the beat they can hear and ignore the music - and ask the guys who can hear the beat so you don't have to dance off the beat too often.

At least those guys who can't hear the beat at all aren't as bad as the guys who think beat 2 is beat 1 :eek:


:yeah:
Such great advice

[timbp]

Follow the lead. Learn to dance out of beat if that is what is led.

Otherwise, you will probably learn to dance on the beat despite what is being led.
Or worse, you may learn to force the leader to dance on the beat.

One day you will dance with someone who has a more sophisticated understanding of musicality. You might ignore his lead and dance only on the beat, but you will miss most of the joy of dancing with him.

Everyone, leader and follower, has to learn to dance on time; playing with the timing is not possible until you understand the timing. But followers must follow. No matter how well a leader understands the music, if the follower dances to her own interpretation rather than following the lead, the dance cannot be as good.

[Steven666]

There's loads of guys out there who have a problem with the beat. But at least they're dancing.

Why do female leads rarely have a problem with it then?

[Lou]

Follow the lead. Learn to dance out of beat if that is what is led.
Why?

Oh... because....

Otherwise, you will probably learn to dance on the beat despite what is being led.
Or worse, you may learn to force the leader to dance on the beat.
Why is that bad? You'll be dancing to the music. Isn't that A Good Thing?


One day you will dance with someone who has a more sophisticated understanding of musicality.
I doubt it, if he has no sense of rhythm. :rolleyes:

Seriously, unless you've experienced dancing with someone with no rhythm, you have no idea how awful it is. As Followers, we already cope with the frustration of Leads who don't have musicality (whether through inexperience, ignorance or through being a move monster). Don't lecture us to always suffer a complete lack of rhythm with good grace. :flower:

[Steven666]

Why?

Oh... because....

Why is that bad? You'll be dancing to the music. Isn't that A Good Thing?


I doubt it, if he has no sense of rhythm. :rolleyes:

Seriously, unless you've experienced dancing with someone with no rhythm, you have no idea how awful it is. As Followers, we already cope with the frustration of Leads who don't have musicality (whether through inexperience, ignorance or through being a move monster). Don't lecture us to always suffer a complete lack of rhythm with good grace. :flower:

If you a move monster who always dances on the beat, do you still lack musicallity?

[Lou]

If you a move monster who always dances on the beat, do you still lack musicallity?
Depends on what you're dancing to, I suspect. :wink: If the moves fit the music, even by chance, then, yes, that's musicality in my book. However, it's unlikely the moves will match the phrasing of the music. :grin:

[mikeyr]

Everyone, leader and follower, has to learn to dance on time; playing with the timing is not possible until you understand the timing. But followers must follow. No matter how well a leader understands the music, if the follower dances to her own interpretation rather than following the lead, the dance cannot be as good.

That is so true, if like some people your timing is &a1 &a2 &a3 &a4 etc the dance will appear smoother less blocky plus the ease of adding of light & shade (fast/slow) that gives dance its mystery, musicality needs to be like the music its self multi layered.

Its shouldnt about the beat but gaps in between!! :cool:

[jinski]

That is so true, if like some people your timing is &a1 &a2 &a3 &a4 etc the dance will appear smoother less blocky plus the ease of adding of light & shade (fast/slow) that gives dance its mystery, musicality needs to be like the music its self multi layered.

Its shouldnt about the beat but gaps in between!! :cool:

I would love to follow your beat of &a1, &a2, &a3, &a4 but I seem to be on different dance floors to you these days :tears: :tears: :tears: :tears:

[timbp]

Why do female leads rarely have a problem with it then?

How many women who have never tried partner dancing come to a partner dance class and choose to lead?

Every woman I know who leads in ceroc/MJ has previously learned to follow in ceroc/MJ.

[timbp]

Why?

Oh... because....

Why is that bad? You'll be dancing to the music. Isn't that A Good Thing?
No. Following your advice, you will be dancing on the beat. There is more to music than beat.



I doubt it, if he has no sense of rhythm. :rolleyes:
But if he has no sense of rhythm, then he's hardly a candidate for my statement of "more sophisticated understanding of musicality".



Seriously, unless you've experienced dancing with someone with no rhythm, you have no idea how awful it is.
When I started dancing, I could not find the beat. Many patient followers helped me. Now, I do know how awful it is to dance with someone with no rhythm. Even if it is true that men have less sense of rhythm than women, that does not mean all women have rhythm.

----

Your earlier comment suggested you see dancing on beat as more important than anything else. Certainly you rejected my comment about "more sophisticated understanding of musicality".
Have you ever thought that if you were a leader, you would be a "move monster"? You certainly display many of the characteristics, especially your refusal to acknowledge there is more to musicality than just dancing on the beat.

[Steven666]

How many women who have never tried partner dancing come to a partner dance class and choose to lead?

Every woman I know who leads in ceroc/MJ has previously learned to follow in ceroc/MJ.

Quite a few to be honest.

[Lou]

No. Following your advice, you will be dancing on the beat. There is more to music than beat.
I hope he doesn't mind - but I'm going to use a dance I had with Tsh on Staurday as an example, as it perfectly fits what I'm saying.

This was a dance where he extended moves, paused & stopped moving, and fitted the phrasing of the music perfectly - however, within that phrasing and playing, the FRAMEWORK of the music, as marked out by the BEAT was still there.

You can't ignore the beat. If you do, the whole dance falls apart.

If it helps you to understand what I'm saying, think about the dancers being additional instruments within the music. They don't have to play the exact same thing that someone else is playing. But, in order to fit, they have to play in the same key, and to the same beat. If they don't - it sounds loose and disjointed.

This is why I find it hard to dance with someone without rhythm, who cannot hear the beats.


Your earlier comment suggested you see dancing on beat as more important than anything else. Certainly you rejected my comment about "more sophisticated understanding of musicality".

No. As I've said above, you cannot have a "more sophisticated understanding of musicality" without having that basis to work from.


Have you ever thought that if you were a leader, you would be a "move monster"?
If I were a Move Monster, I'd quite fancy being a Move Vampire. :D

I do lead, but because I can't remember too many moves, I tend to play with the music more, just to get away with it. :wink: People I dance lead with tend to indicate that I dance to the music. :nice: I always say it's because I know what I like (as a follower), that I try to do it when I lead.


You certainly display many of the characteristics, especially your refusal to acknowledge there is more to musicality than just dancing on the beat.
Ooooh! Handbag! :eek: That's a bit of a snotty comment. :na: But I'll rise above it. :flower:

All I was saying, is that to me, dancing to the beat is far more important, because the beat is what gives the dance the framwork. Perhaps it's because I'm a musician. :rolleyes:

[David Bailey]

I hope he doesn't mind - but I'm going to use a dance I had with Tsh on Staurday as an example, as it perfectly fits what I'm saying.

This was a dance where he extended moves, paused & stopped moving, and fitted the phrasing of the music perfectly - however, within that phrasing and playing, the FRAMEWORK of the music, as marked out by the BEAT was still there.

You can't ignore the beat. If you do, the whole dance falls apart.
I'd put it slightly differently... You should be aware of the beat, but you can choose to deliberately ignore it for some parts of the dance, as long as you, umm, "acknowledge" the beat. You don't have to - for example - step on every beat / every other beat, just to acknowledge the beat. I can't put it better than that, I'm afraid.

But like all this stuff, you need to know the rules before you can bend them.

I wouldn't use "ignore", as that implies the person is aware of the beat in the first place - lots of people simply don't hear it.


No. As I've said above, you cannot have a "more sophisticated understanding of musicality" without having that basis to work from.
:yeah:
You need to be able to dance to the beat before you can dance not to the beat :)


I do lead, but because I can't remember too many moves, I tend to play with the music more, just to get away with it. :wink:
Well, duh. I mean, that's what the rest of us do. :wink:

[Lou]

I'd put it slightly differently... You should be aware of the beat, but you can choose to deliberately ignore it for some parts of the dance, as long as you, umm, "acknowledge" the beat.:
Ooh! I like that. "Acknowledge the beat". :D What I'm trying to convey to timbp, is that there are Leads who ignore it, as they don't even seem to be aware of its existence (let alone deliberately ignoring it) - and these are the most awkward to dance with.

And, at the risk of bringing in footwork....:wink: it's one of the reasons I don't totally agree that Andy has the One True Way of teaching, as it does encourage that "Marching" style.

[David Bailey]

Ooh! I like that. "Acknowledge the beat". :D What I'm trying to convey to timbp, is that there are Leads who ignore it, as they don't even seem to be aware of its existence (let alone deliberately ignoring it) - and these are the most awkward to dance with.

Yes, that's reasonable. These people are ignorant of the beat, they're not ignoring it. Although I'm getting seriously pedantic, as usual, I think that's a crucial difference.


And, at the risk of bringing in footwork....:wink: it's one of the reasons I don't totally agree that Andy has the One True Way of teaching, as it does encourage that "Marching" style.
I've never seen Andy's class so I can't comment.

However, Amir's Jango classes focus on walking one-step-per-beat for "Jango-ised" MJ moves, which is quite useful. Let's face it, anything that even mentions a beat is a step up from the average Ceroc class.

[TA Guy]

All I was saying, is that to me, dancing to the beat is far more important, because the beat is what gives the dance the framwork. Perhaps it's because I'm a musician. :rolleyes:

Nope, don't think so, I'm not a musician and I agree with that for two reasons.

1) The (type of) beat is mentioned in every definition of MJ I have ever seen. If you don't at least make passing reference to it, you are not dancing MJ IMO.

2) I agree with you, it's the framework. You can muck around outside the framework as much as you like in short bursts (musicality)... but if you create an artificial framework (E.G. dance deliberately consistantly slower to fast music cos a partner can't keep up) or just consistantly ignore the correct beat for whatever reason it looks like what it is, dancing off the beat. I.E. poo.

[JCB]

The last few posts make a good point (i.e. dancing without regard to the beat of the music playing looks and feels ghastly)... but ...
If asking the leader if he is having difficulty hearing the beat is an unconscionable faux-pas, then what?

Follow the lead. Learn to dance out of beat if that is what is led.That is all I can think to do, because if you try to force a leader onto the beat when he hasn't asked for help, he may well decide that you (along with a surprisingly large number of other women he dances with ) are simply a lousy follower, who back-leads all the time. :sad: There are consequences, even though you may manage to force the leader to dance to the beat.
Why is that bad? You'll be dancing to the music. Isn't that A Good Thing? Actually, Lou, while you are dancing to the music, your rhythmless partner may well only perceive that he is being yanked around, and decide that the cure is a bit more force next time. Congratulations! You have brought into the world another yanker, and one unencumbered by any sense of rhythm: a species justly loathed, as Nebula has pointed out.
Don't lecture us to always suffer a complete lack of rhythm with good grace. So, how would you suggest followers make things better, without asking the guy if he needs help finding the beat, without back-leading, …and without abandoning him mid-dance ? :flower:

[Lou]

So, how would you suggest followers make things better, without asking the guy if he needs help finding the beat, without back-leading, …and without abandoning him mid-dance ? :flower:

Well, as you're asking - honestly, I would just dance with you, and cleverly adapt my timing in order to (surrupticiously) help you find the beat. I wouldn't yank you, as I tend to have quite a light hold. If you were aware of it, it would just seem that I took longer to respond to what you wanted. And, sadly, it does mean that if you didn't adjust your timing, you'll probably yank me around uncomfortably, as you'd be gripping tightly and forcing me to move before the previous step was completed. It's not hi-jacking, or back-leading, in the worst sense, as I would be doing what you wanted - just fitting it within the music. :flower:

But, again being honest, I'm particularly sensitive to rhythm. I had to leave the room whenever that wretched AA advert came on, because they'd played around with the timing of "You've Got A Friend", and the phrasing/timing was so wrong it would cause me to cringe.

[Lou]

Sorry - coming back to this one, as I've just read back through the posts on this thread again. I've realised that JCB doesn't lead, and that she's being defensive about her husband's learning situation. Sorry. :blush: Also, I've been distracted by timbp's comments about advanced musicality, as this thread was originally intended as advice for BEGINNERS! :nice:

Yes - it's particularly hard for men learning to lead. I am sympathetic and patient with them (Shuddup, Craig! Yes I am! :na:). I don't (typically) pull them around, and I imagine my solution is similar to Lory's on the first page of this thread. We do nudge & "backlead", but I can promise you we don't yank. :flower: There are many ways to persuade a man to do something you want him to do - and in my experience, excessive force doesn't normally help. :wink: A gentle bit of encouragement in the right direction, though.... :whistle:

I stand by my actions - as it does help teach the beginner men to appreciate that there is a beat there, and to acknowledge its existence.

[mabraham]

Why is that bad? You'll be dancing to the music. Isn't that A Good Thing?

If you're a follow doing partner dancing, and not following, you're not dancing regardless of what the music is doing...

[timbp]

Also, I've been distracted by timbp's comments about advanced musicality, as this thread was originally intended as advice for BEGINNERS! :nice:

Well, there goes the flame I was writing in response to your earlier comments.

But in response to earlier comments:

Three years ago, I could not find the beat in music. I now get complimented on my musicality.

I now get complimented on my musicality, but I have always been complimented on my lead.

When I started dancing, I quickly learned the moves (that was easy), and then worked on leading the followers through those moves. I concentrated on a clear and gentle lead. At the time, I could not find the beat; if a partner gave me the beat, I could keep to it, but if for any reason we went off time, I would not have known.

Soon I had a group of girls who would dance with me just because I did not hurt them.

My advice in my first post was assuming that the leaders who could not dance on beat were beginners. I was also assuming that their partners were beginners. Probably both assumptions are invalid (please don't tell my lecturers).

[Lou]

If you're a follow doing partner dancing, and not following, you're not dancing regardless of what the music is doing...

However, if you're following your partner, but not dancing to the music, you're still not dancing. :flower: You're just like a robot, doing a set of movements.

Dancing is always done to a rhythm. Even if there's no music, there's an underlying rhythm. And both parties have to be aware of it.

To help you understand what I'm saying, think of Dominic Littlewood in Strictly Come Dancing. Whilst he felt that he gave a flawless performance last week, he couldn't understand why he continued to get poor feedback every week from the judges and why he was voted out & not John Barnes. But he couldn't dance to the music, and it just highlights how important it is. You don't want to dance like Dominic, do you?


Well, there goes the flame I was writing in response to your earlier comments.
:D Thank you. :flower:

It's not clear who some of the comments on this thread are addressed to. There are several experienced ladies who have given advice on this thread - particularly in favour of encouraging their partner to dance to the timing of the music. Typically, we don't yank or force our partners. We're guiding and helping.

They shouldn't be ignored through trite soundbites like mabraham's comment above. Of course we should all be dancing together. :rolleyes: That's stating the obvious! But, as I said earlier, if we're trying to dance AGAINST the music - well, we're not dancing.

[David Bailey]

To help you understand what I'm saying, think of Dominic Littlewood in Strictly Come Dancing.
Christ, do I have to? He's given small bald men the world over a bad name :sick:


You don't want to dance like Dominic, do you?
I don't even want to grop Lilia's bum like Dominic. :mad:


They shouldn't be ignored through trite soundbites like mabraham's comment above. Of course we should all be dancing together. :rolleyes: That's stating the obvious! But, as I said earlier, if we're trying to dance AGAINST the music - well, we're not dancing.
Whilst I agree with your comments, are you saying it's impossible to dance without music? Because I wouldn't go that far.

[Lou]

Whilst I agree with your comments, are you saying it's impossible to dance without music? Because I wouldn't go that far.

:rolleyes: I knew you didn't read my posts but...


Dancing is always done to a rhythm. Even if there's no music, there's an underlying rhythm. And both parties have to be aware of it.
:rofl:

[David Bailey]

:rolleyes: I knew you didn't read my posts but...
Sorry, what was that?

What I meant was, do you think it's possible to have a (MJ) dance in silence? Obviously the leader sets the tempo, but I'm not sure how effective that is in communicating a rhythm to a partner, without an external source to reinforce that tempo...

[Lou]

What I meant was, do you think it's possible to have a (MJ) dance in silence? Obviously the leader sets the tempo, but I'm not sure how effective that is in communicating a rhythm to a partner, without an external source to reinforce that tempo...
I don't see why it shouldn't be possible. :) It'd be far easier than battling music, anyway.

[bigdjiver]

Sorry, what was that?

What I meant was, do you think it's possible to have a (MJ) dance in silence? Obviously the leader sets the tempo, but I'm not sure how effective that is in communicating a rhythm to a partner, without an external source to reinforce that tempo...I have done MJ with no music playing, and it is one of my treasured memories. The connection was fabulous.

[mabraham]

Why is that bad? You'll be dancing to the music. Isn't that A Good Thing?


If you're a follow doing partner dancing, and not following, you're not dancing regardless of what the music is doing...


However, if you're following your partner, but not dancing to the music, you're still not dancing. :flower: You're just like a robot, doing a set of movements.

Agreed.

Which is the better compromise depends on your objective. If you're the follow, who'll only have this 3 minutes and then maybe never suffering this poor lead again, then sure, dancing to the music and ignoring the sod can be the easiest way to have something reasonable going on. If you're the lead, however, you have to dance with yourself all the time... if you get no chance to learn, then you don't, and then you get frustrated, and then you leave, and the follows might wonder why there's a thousand of them and a handful of good leads left at dance events :nice:... or you stay, and never improve, and the follows keep being frustrated with you!


Dancing is always done to a rhythm. Even if there's no music, there's an underlying rhythm. And both parties have to be aware of it.

To help you understand what I'm saying, think of Dominic Littlewood in Strictly Come Dancing. Whilst he felt that he gave a flawless performance last week, he couldn't understand why he continued to get poor feedback every week from the judges and why he was voted out & not John Barnes. But he couldn't dance to the music, and it just highlights how important it is. You don't want to dance like Dominic, do you?

Probably not, by the sounds of it, but I live in Australia, so I won't be seeing him any time soon. :grin:


They shouldn't be ignored through trite soundbites like mabraham's comment above. Of course we should all be dancing together. :rolleyes: That's stating the obvious! But, as I said earlier, if we're trying to dance AGAINST the music - well, we're not dancing.

My soundbite is trite yes, and incomplete, yes, but so is yours above :wink:. As a follow, if he's leading against the music, through ignorance, inability or design, and you're trying to dance with the music by design, then you're at least as wrong as he is. The exception might be, per timbp, that he might have a higher perception of musicality than you and be leading to something you have yet to learn about... You might miss that if you aren't (in the habit of) following... such a leader will be in a different category from the ones off the beat through ignorance and inability, of course.

[NZ Monkey]

... such a leader will be in a different category from the ones off the beat through ignorance and inability, of course.And obviously so, one would hope :wink:

[Lou]

As a follow, if he's leading against the music, through ignorance, inability or design, and you're trying to dance with the music by design, then you're at least as wrong as he is.
And two wrongs don't make a right? :wink:

Ah.. but, in this thread, we're not really talking about those who are leading out of time by design, are we. It's really about inexperienced men. Those who need a bit of gentle encouragement in the ways of rhythm. Helping them with their timing is for the greater good of the dance. And, in my experience, only the most miniscule amount of them try to continue in their rhythm blind way and turn into the Dreaded Yanker. Most start to hear and understand the beat. After all, it does take practice to learn something. :flower:


The exception might be, per timbp, that he might have a higher perception of musicality than you and be leading to something you have yet to learn about... You might miss that if you aren't (in the habit of) following... such a leader will be in a different category from the ones off the beat through ignorance and inability, of course.

Yeah - but as I replied to timpb - those men who have higher perception of musicality won't have a poor sense of rhythm. So it's a moot point. IMHO, or course. :wink:

[mabraham]

Yeah - but as I replied to timpb - those men who have higher perception of musicality won't have a poor sense of rhythm. So it's a moot point. IMHO, or course. :wink:


No, I don't think this point raised by timbp is moot. If the lead is experienced, and leading against the beat for some reason, if a follow is in the habit of "correcting" leads to dance to the beat, then their chance of experiencing what such a lead has to offer is worse than it would otherwise be. He might even be leading weirdly to prevent the follow getting injured... who'd want an injury as an offering to the gods of dancing on the beat? :wink:

[Lou]

If the lead is experienced, and leading against the beat for some reason, if a follow is in the habit of "correcting" leads to dance to the beat, then their chance of experiencing what such a lead has to offer is worse than it would otherwise be...
Does that mean that you now accept that it's OK to help beginners find the beat (so long as we don't yank them into position)? :wink:

[mabraham]

Does that mean that you now accept that it's OK to help beginners find the beat (so long as we don't yank them into position)? :wink:

I never said it wasn't OK to help gently... :wink:

One of my treasured dance memories came 18 months ago in my first dance with the owner of CMJ, one of the big dance companies up in Sydney. Pards and I had gone up for a workshop the next day and had gone to a dance party the night before. I'd sat out much of the night, thanks to one of those <censored> beginner ladies who injured my shoulder. Nicky bounced up and asked for a dance, as she does, and of course I accepted. Being an unknown bloke, nobody had asked me to dance all night. (Pards was fighting them off with a stick, however.) I managed to lose the beat at one point when she hijacked in a way I hadn't seen before... so she hijacked again, and led me back onto the beat. Then she relinquished the lead and we got on with the dance. :notworthy: This worked because she did this to a guy who might have been able to listen, at a time when he would be listening, who'd demonstrated earlier in the dance he was ready for the message, i.e. "dude, the beat is here".

I rather suspect there's a lot of unreceptive men out there, either through not knowing the objective, not being able to listen to the message, or simply not being able to implement the message, and some women less capable than Nicky at communicating said message, so it won't work well all the time! YMMV!

[killingtime]

One thing that's a little OT but I'd still like opinions about it is that:

One class I've been to seems to have a DJ who pretty much sticks to the same track for the whole class (and across weeks as well), apart from me finding this lack of adapting to the moves or keeping it fresh annoying me I was wondering if this leads to people who just experience this being less musical. I mean if you are just learning and you learn moves by rote at 110bpm, when the class ends beginner leads, with enough on their mind, might just carry on dancing by rote at the same speed. I'm not saying that leads won't break away from that but I certainly could see why it might make it more difficult.

What do you think?

[MartinHarper]

If you are just learning and you learn moves by rote at 110bpm, when the class ends beginner leads, with enough on their mind, might just carry on dancing by rote at the same speed.

I'd expect it to be a little like learning a move whilst always facing the same way. It can make it easier to learn, but also harder in freestyle, where the orientation might be different.
Having said that, I enjoy classes where the same track is used throughout, and the teacher explains how to fit the moves being taught to the track being played.

[timbp]

Pards was fighting them off with a stick, however.
She's prettier than you are. I was quite disappointed she didnt' come to the Circus Ball. I hope you'll persuade her along to the Christmas party...