(Private) Lessons

[Mythical]

Apologies, this has already been talked about, but I can't seem to answer the questons I have.
I'm thinking of having a private lesson soon. To those who've had private lessons, or taken private lessons, what happens? Do you book a lesson with someone who does the same part ofthe dance as you, or the opposite? (ie. follow-follor, or follow-lead)
Is there much benefit to be gained from a private lesson, when you've only been dancing a few months?
What I'd like to get out of it is an idea of what I ned to work on, and how I can work on it - at the moment, my dancing has gone down the toilet because I'm seing loads of things I want to add to my dancing and adding them all - they're all colliding, and none of them are working! I'd like to just be able to just "pick one and go with it" but I can't seem actually do it! Is this the wrong question to ask? do i have to say "I want to work on _______" (fill in the blank)

[Caro]

some useful information here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/lets-talk-about-dance/12961-private-lessons.html) :flower:

[Mythical]

:flower: Thanks, caro, I've seen it already, tho!

[Andy McGregor]

I'd like to just be able to just "pick one and go with it" but I can't seem actually do it! Is this the wrong question to ask? do i have to say "I want to work on _______" (fill in the blank)I would say that you should ask your teacher what you should work on. When I give private lessons I try to be motivational. That means I take great care not to be critical of somebody's dancing. I try to be constructive and find things for people to work on. And, as I teach many of the people who ask for privates I often tell them that they don't need a private lesson, they just need more practice. With this in mind, my recommendation is to ask your regular teacher for a private lesson.

[David Bailey]

I'm thinking of having a private lesson soon. To those who've had private lessons, or taken private lessons, what happens?
It varies - it depends on the teacher basically. I've had privates in people's houses, in dance studios, or at venues before a class.

It all depends on what you want to learn - the best way of getting value is to have a clear idea of what you want to learn - you're the one dictating the agenda after all. I'd also recommend recording what you learn - notes, and if possible a video of you dancing.


Do you book a lesson with someone who does the same part ofthe dance as you, or the opposite? (ie. follow-follor, or follow-lead)
Again, it depends - but a good teacher should be able to teach both roles.


Is there much benefit to be gained from a private lesson, when you've only been dancing a few months?
Absolutely - in fact, that's probably the best time to start, when you don't have too many ingrained bad habits.


What I'd like to get out of it is an idea of what I ned to work on, and how I can work on it - at the moment, my dancing has gone down the toilet because I'm seing loads of things I want to add to my dancing and adding them all - they're all colliding, and none of them are working! I'd like to just be able to just "pick one and go with it" but I can't seem actually do it! Is this the wrong question to ask? do i have to say "I want to work on _______" (fill in the blank)
I think it helps, very much, if you have a general idea, yes - it's not much help if you say to the teacher "I want to work on everything" :)

[Andy McGregor]

I think it helps, very much, if you have a general idea, yes - it's not much help if you say to the teacher "I want to work on everything" :)I think this is approaching the situation from the wrong angle. Who is likely to have a good idea what a dancer should be working on next? The person who needs the private lesson? Or the expert giving the private lesson? This reminds me of a situation GPs regularly see. Teenagers consult with very obvious acne - they never mention the acne, and have visited for something else altogether :confused:

Most dancers bad habits and faults are as obvious as that acne. My recommendation is that you don't have an agenda for your first private lesson and ask for a recommendation from the expert you have selected.

This doesn't mean that David James is wrong. He's just blessed with a knowledge of his faults. Perhaps he thinks that knowledge is complete - I'm here to tell him that it is not :innocent:

[FoxyFunkster]

Apologies, this has already been talked about, but I can't seem to answer the questons I have.
I'm thinking of having a private lesson soon. To those who've had private lessons, or taken private lessons, what happens? Do you book a lesson with someone who does the same part ofthe dance as you, or the opposite? (ie. follow-follor, or follow-lead)
Is there much benefit to be gained from a private lesson, when you've only been dancing a few months?
What I'd like to get out of it is an idea of what I ned to work on, and how I can work on it - at the moment, my dancing has gone down the toilet because I'm seing loads of things I want to add to my dancing and adding them all - they're all colliding, and none of them are working! I'd like to just be able to just "pick one and go with it" but I can't seem actually do it! Is this the wrong question to ask? do i have to say "I want to work on _______" (fill in the blank)


As great as private lessons are one of the best tools for improving your dancing in my opinion is to video yourself dancing, you`ll see for yourself what you need to improve on and so on, also it`s worth asking your good friends you dance with what they feel when they dance with you, feedback is important, Also in terms of actually having Private lessons, i think it worthwhile getting lessons from a good male and good female teacher! That what i`m doing at the moment with WCS, and it`s proving invaluable, hope that helps

[Dreadful Scathe]

As great as private lessons are one of the best tools for improving your dancing in my opinion is to video yourself dancing, you`ll see for yourself what you need to improve on and so on

I'd disagree - while considering improvement does mean you realise there is lots of room for it, you are not necessarily the best person to figure out what that improvement actually is. It depends on the individual - look at x-factor auditions for an example of this: "I just need the chance and some coaching and Ill be the next Freddie Mercury" says the tone deaf screacher with the equivalent vocal range of a childs toy bow and arrow ;)


also it`s worth asking your good friends you dance with what they feel when they dance with you

actually its probably better to ask your BAD friends ;)


Also in terms of actually having Private lessons, i think it worthwhile getting lessons from a good male and good female teacher!

I'd just say get a good teacher, sex is irrelevant :)

[Andy McGregor]

sex is irrelevant :)That's just a consequence of having children :whistle:

[David Bailey]

I think this is approaching the situation from the wrong angle. Who is likely to have a good idea what a dancer should be working on next? The person who needs the private lesson? Or the expert giving the private lesson?
I've heard many, many teachers tell me that "teach me how to dance" is the thing they most dread hearing from a private student.

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be a lot of initial discussion and exploration of options at the start - in fact, I think I'd be happy with a classroom format, no dancing at all, with some teachers.

But that "explore, structure, plan" approach only works in a multi-lesson format - if you've only got 1 hour, your best bet to get value-for-money is to have some clear goals to achieve.

Of course, yes, you shouldn't just go for an hour, it's best to have many lessons, but it's not that easy, life tends to get in the way of plans. And if you don't know whether you want to commit to a teacher, you don't want to waste your money.


This doesn't mean that David James is wrong. He's just blessed with a knowledge of his faults. Perhaps he thinks that knowledge is complete - I'm here to tell him that it is not :innocent:
Thanks, Andy, I can't tell you how warm and fuzzy that makes me. No, I really can't.

[Andy McGregor]

I've heard many, many teachers tell me that "teach me how to dance" is the thing they most dread hearing from a private student.

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be a lot of initial discussion and exploration of options at the start - in fact, I think I'd be happy with a classroom format, no dancing at all, with some teachers.

But that "explore, structure, plan" approach only works in a multi-lesson format - if you've only got 1 hour, your best bet to get value-for-money is to have some clear goals to achieve.

Of course, yes, you shouldn't just go for an hour, it's best to have many lessons, but it's not that easy, life tends to get in the way of plans. And if you don't know whether you want to commit to a teacher, you don't want to waste your money.And that is precisely what you will be doing if you do what DJ says. I've never had anybody ask for a private lesson with "teach me how to dance". The nearest is when people ask me to teach them a dance for their first wedding dance.

Most people ask me to help them improve the way they dance. And they leave it up to me to coach them in how they might bring that improvement about. Sometimes people ask me to help them with a particular aspect of their dancing that they are struggling with - and I usually find that there is something wrong with their basic technique and what they are talking about is a symptom rather than the root cause. Which kind of relief would you like, symptomatic or a cure?

[Andy McGregor]

Thanks, Andy, I can't tell you how warm and fuzzy that makes me. No, I really can't.You don't need to, the fuzziness of your posting is all the evidence I need to judge your mood. And the warmth seems to be linked to a certain level of moisture - are you sure you're sitting comfortably? :devil:

[David Bailey]

I've never had anybody ask for a private lesson with "teach me how to dance".
Yeah? :whistle: :rofl:

[Andy McGregor]

Yeah? :whistle: :rofl:

:confused:

I don't even get people coming to my dance classes saying "teach me how to dance". It's a given that a dance class does that. Although some dance classes don't do it very well. From what David has posted it sounds to me that he may have attended that kind of class :innocent:

[David Bailey]

:confused:

I don't even get people coming to my dance classes saying "teach me how to dance".
Yeah, really ? :rofl: :rofl:

Notice a common thread there? :innocent:


From what David has posted it sounds to me that he may have attended that kind of class :innocent:
Nah, your classes a miles away. :na:

[Andy McGregor]

Nah, your classes a miles away. :na:Thankfully. I've seen David dance and I don't think we have a floor in Sussex that's big enough.

[Thetruth]

As great as private lessons are one of the best tools for improving your dancing in my opinion is to video yourself dancing, you`ll see for yourself what you need to improve on and so on, also it`s worth asking your good friends you dance with what they feel when they dance with you, feedback is important,

Unfortunately, when asking for feedback the information given can be conflicting from dancer to dancer based upon experience in dancing. As far as videos of yourself dancing, how would one know what to look for to improve? How would you know the right way to a move? Teachers know.
Take private lessons but start with the fundamentals. Make your teacher your coach. This will help you and your coach concentrate on the areas of your dance that need work. Even world champion dancers practice their fundamentals daily.
Certainly only seek opinions from those that are paid to impart the knowledge. There are often too many experts when the facts are few and it is best to avoid listening to their feedback. Coaches know best, not a social dancer.
I have read some crazy and dangerous advice from dancers with limited experience on the Australia MJ forum...................its amazing how the dance skill level improves when one is on the forum.......:rolleyes:

[David Bailey]

As far as videos of yourself dancing, how would one know what to look for to improve? How would you know the right way to a move? Teachers know.
I don't think anyone's suggesting only videoing what you're doing - but it's a useful tool, in conjunction with other techniques.

Practicing, videoing, private lessons, group classes, feedback and social dancing - they're all important to help you improve.

[drathzel]

And that is precisely what you will be doing if you do what DJ says. I've never had anybody ask for a private lesson with "teach me how to dance".

thne closest to this i have had is when someone came to me after dancing about 6 months (on and off) and said that they would like a private lesson. I then asked what do you want to learn and they replied "everything" i asked a few questions and quickly realised that they didnt want to know everything about ceroc there every was to know. The just meant the wanted to start at the start and build up.

[MartinHarper]

Unfortunately, when asking for feedback the information given can be conflicting from dancer to dancer based upon experience in dancing.

I don't think social dancers contradict each other any more than teachers do.

[Dreadful Scathe]

I don't think social dancers contradict each other any more than teachers do.
oh yes they do...


...oooh i crack myself up :)

[David Bailey]

I don't think social dancers contradict each other any more than teachers do.
Ah, but teachers are paid to contradict each other - that's the difference. They have trained prejudices, not just the normal plebby amateur prejudices we have :grin:

Seriously, in MJ I think most of the conflicts between teachers are minimal - at least at the beginner level - mainly because of the pervasiveness of the Ceroc teaching method. It's only silly stuff which differentiates them, like which foot to step back on in the First Move.

You see much more contradiction in style with salsa and AT teachers.

[Andy McGregor]

thne closest to this i have had is when someone came to me after dancing about 6 months (on and off) and said that they would like a private lesson. I then asked what do you want to learn and they replied "everything" i asked a few questions and quickly realised that they didnt want to know everything about ceroc there every was to know. The just meant the wanted to start at the start and build up.This is the kind of thing I sometimes get. And drathzel was right to ask questions to find out what it was that the dancer actually required.

Of course the dancer didn't want to know everything about Ceroc. Why would they want to know anything about a company? :confused: I think drathzel meant Modern Jive :innocent:

[Andy McGregor]

I don't think social dancers contradict each other any more than teachers do.I don't think social dancers contradict each other at all. In my experience they talk about what they've been taught rather than what they think. Although there are a few people who will teach people to dance when they are very poor dancers themselves - we've had many examples of that on here. One in particular springs to mind - he put up "vids" of himself, told us we should all look and learn and then proceeded to tell national champions that they were wrong.

And, I'm sure, he would be delighted to give you a private lesson :whistle:

[Gus]

Of course we then come onto the conversation about who is competent to give private lessons. I'm not sure that learning to teach moves by rote is the best basis ... and I'm fairly sure that 'juat another dancer who has now decided to start teaching' is a good basis either. Looking flash on the dance floor is rarely in itself an indication of good teaching ability :(

How would you go about finding a teacher who is actualy a good dance coach ... and in what areas would you consider them to be competent .. i.e. would you expect all dance coaches to be able to coach a dancer wrt aerials; competitions moves; lating style; drops; timing; footwork etc.

[Andy McGregor]

Seriously, in MJ I think most of the conflicts between teachers are minimal - at least at the beginner level - mainly because of the pervasiveness of the Ceroc teaching method. It's only silly stuff which differentiates them, like which foot to step back on in the First Move.Oooh! Is this the start of another footwork discussion? Let's hope not. I think we all know where we stand - and which foot we stand on, even if it is the wrong foot!

Much as it pains me, I do agree with David about the differences in MJ being small. However, these differences are massive compared to ballroom dancing. And the reason ballroom dancing is the same all over the world is that there are national and international standards. One of the reasons I believe there are no international standards is the existence of Ceroc. They are standing in the way of standardising MJ as no national UK body is likely to thrive whilst 200 nights are controlled by an organisation that would not join the national body. And don't get me started about the LeRoc Federation :whistle:

[Gus]

One of the reasons I believe there are no international standards is the existence of Ceroc. They are standing in the way of standardising MJ as no national UK body is likely to thrive whilst 200 nights are controlled by an organisation that would not join the national body. Urrr ... isn't there an argument that Ceroc ARE the national body :whistle::whistle: They propogated the dance, they've developed the dance, they developed the teaching model that most others have adopted, they have the 'best' teacher training and now they are probably the most innovative. Why doesn't everyone else go across to the Dark Side and be assimilated?

(Reasons on the back of a house brick please ..)

[Andy McGregor]

Urrr ... isn't there an argument that Ceroc ARE the national body :whistle::whistle: They propogated the dance, they've developed the dance, they developed the teaching model that most others have adopted, they have the 'best' teacher training and now they are probably the most innovative. You could propose that argument. But I don't think you'd win it. I must confess that I use the teaching model. But I'm not sure that Ceroc developed it. I used a similar teacing model in martial arts and they have a history dating back hundreds of years.

I terms of the dance, the dance us growing band of smoothies teach is related to the dance Ceroc teach. But the two dances look and feel completely different. So much so I'm often asked by ladies who only attend Ceroc "what dance is that you're doing? Is it West Coast Swing?"


Why doesn't everyone else go across to the Dark Side and be assimilated?

(Reasons on the back of a house brick please ..)The other difference is that the national bodies are there to serve their members, all of whom are independent. And, I'm guessing, the national bodies probably have a democratically elected controlling body made up from the independent membership.

p.s. House brick on its way :whistle:

[Thetruth]

I don't think social dancers contradict each other any more than teachers do.

Well perhaps it is only confined to Australia. My last dance partner was a latin dancer with over 15 years experience in dance. Often in Ceroc classes many a male lead was prepared to impart their knowledge on her. Thankfully she knew better and ignored the unsolicited advice. Unfortunately, many male social cerocers think they know the right way, but have never competed, not taken private lessons nor should offer unsolicited advice as they are only social dancers. I don't believe the Australian ceroc teachers contradict each other.

[David Bailey]

Well perhaps it is only confined to Australia. My last dance partner was a latin dancer with over 15 years experience in dance.
Means nothing - hell, I've had more experience in dance than that, and I'm rubbish.


Often in Ceroc classes many a male lead was prepared to impart their knowledge on her. Thankfully she knew better and ignored the unsolicited advice.
I agree that unsolicited advice is, well, unsolicited. I try to avoid advice even if solicited, in fact.


Unfortunately, many male social cerocers think they know the right way, but have never competed, not taken private lessons nor should offer unsolicited advice as they are only social dancers.
Yeah, those mere social dancers, they're just scum aren't they... :rolleyes:


I don't believe the Australian ceroc teachers contradict each other.
Why, is there something in the water that homogenises them? :eek:

[Gus]

My last dance partner was a latin dancer with over 15 years experience in dance. Often in Ceroc classes many a male lead was prepared to impart their knowledge on her. Thankfully she knew better and ignored the unsolicited advice.Uurrrrr ... isn't there a fair difference between Latin and MJ? Must admit some of the most difficult dancers I've had to coach are those who have come from a 'proper' dance, e.g. ballet, latin, salsa, clog dancing; and have yet to make the transistion to a less structured form. I would be worried if somone from such an alien dance style assumed that "they know best" while they were still learning.

[Thetruth]

Means nothing - hell, I've had more experience in dance than that, and I'm rubbish.

It means something if you spent over 3 hours 5 days a week from age 8 and in an ex eastern bloc country - communist. She was often hit when not trying hard enough in training. Yes, I agree that years in dance means little, but she can truly dance (many styles very well).......................so dont get jealous now.......:wink:

Its not me that called social dancers "scum" that must be your inferior complex.............:wink:

The Sydney owners of Ceroc and MJ provide their teachers with regular news updates via email and training, student requests, moves lists to be taught on selected dates, etc etc.......................

[Thetruth]

Uurrrrr ... isn't there a fair difference between Latin and MJ? Must admit some of the most difficult dancers I've had to coach are those who have come from a 'proper' dance, e.g. ballet, latin, salsa, clog dancing; and have yet to make the transistion to a less structured form. I would be worried if somone from such an alien dance style assumed that "they know best" while they were still learning.

Its about being a dancer. Ceroc/MJ is easy for a trained dancer to learn. Its only about learning the moves in ceroc.(your reference to "still learning"...............which are taken from styles like Latin Jive, Salsa, Tango, Cha, Samba, Rumba as well as WCS and some other styles..............this is how ceroc/MJ is marketed. So not sure on the level of Latin dancers you coached.
Less structured form means no shaping? No hip action? No connection between partners? No syncopations? No arm action? Head down, ass out? Surely not?????????????? To a Latin dancer of note...........MJ/Ceroc is an easy style to learn. Its like asking a marathon swimming to swim 400 mtrs....................easy.................:D

[David Bailey]

Its not me that called social dancers "scum" that must be your inferior complex.............:wink:
Yeah, probably. But at least I can spell inferiority.

But, umm, when you said:
Unfortunately, many male social cerocers think they know the right way, but have never competed, not taken private lessons nor should offer unsolicited advice as they are only social dancers.
- what exactly did you mean by "only"?

[frodo]

... My last dance partner was a latin dancer with over 15 years experience in dance. Often in Ceroc classes many a male lead was prepared to impart their knowledge on her. Thankfully she knew better and ignored the unsolicited advice. Unfortunately, many male social cerocers think they know the right way, but have never competed, not taken private lessons nor should offer unsolicited advice as they are only social dancers...

Social dancers might not be qualified to offer advice on competition dancing. However what is right in a competition settings isn't the same thing as what is right in a social setting.

The lady in question may have 15 years experience of dance. It doesn't mean she is right about social Ceroc, even if she is right about 20 other dances.


To look at it the other way I've noticed competition dancer ladies who social dance little can be quite willing to offer advice, in the odd times I dance with them.

While perfectly appropriate for competitions, and when working one on one with a partner, I'd say most often it doesn't translate to a social setting without a fixed partner.

[Thetruth]

Social dancers might not be qualified to offer advice on competition dancing. However what is right in a competition settings isn't the same thing as what is right in a social setting.

The lady in question may have 15 years experience of dance. It doesn't mean she is right about social Ceroc, even if she is right about 20 other dances.


To look at it the other way I've noticed competition dancer ladies who social dance little can be quite willing to offer advice, in the odd times I dance with them.

While perfectly appropriate for competitions, and when working one on one with a partner, I'd say most often it doesn't translate to a social setting without a fixed partner.

On the forum many refer to the difference between social dancing and comp dancing. This is obvious. However, comp dancers dance with an intensity and passion not done in social dancing. Ever heard a comp follow say, "I want a really good dance" at a social dance? I have, many times. Its like a great shag and a good shag. Everybody would like a great shag. Shag as in swing dance...............:wink:. Dancing well and having fun is the same. Generally though comp dancers or ex comp dancers look for more in the dance than the social dancer on a different level.

[Thetruth]

[quote=DavidJames;409908]Yeah, probably. But at least I can spell inferiority.[quote]

Clutching at straws now............................? Not good form.
Only a social dance is just that, only a social dancer. There are levels of skill in dance as there are in Football, would you expect an EPL player to take advice from a park player on how to mark Rooney? Its up to the people to understand their skill level and not think over it..............................some just never get it. Others do get it and work hard to get better at dance because they want to, whilst others are happy to stay at the level they are due to various time constraints etc etc. It life..................:nice:

[MartinHarper]

Thetruth is absolutely correct.

For example, I am now an "amateur competition dancer" when following Blues. This is why I was so much more awesome and hawt than the women in the Southport bar who were "only social dancers", and why I had a queue of leaders three foot deep waiting to dance with me.

This is off-topic, but now that I'm on a new dance level I have transcended the boundaries of so-called "topics" that haunt mere social dancers, and entered a new realm where all elements of dance are connected in a gooey equilateral splodge.