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DavidB
3rd-September-2003, 12:03 PM
Judging systems are irrelevant to the majority of people, but seemingly of interest to a few people on this forum.

Those people might be interested in the new system (http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-135692-137000-34133-0-file,00.pdf) being introduced for Ice Skating competitions. A more practical guide is at ESPN's Web Site (http://espn.go.com/oly/s/2003/0326/1530138.html).

David

Paul F
3rd-September-2003, 12:15 PM
Thats very interesting.

I like that idea. Bringing technology right into the forefront!!

I would love to see that implemented in MJ. Just imagine being able to get a breakdown of feedback from the judges. I especially like the fact that you can see what judge scored for a certain part of the performance. Then they have to justify it :devil:

Of course if you dont like their answer you could always sit down and discuss it with them in a civilised manner :what: :wink:


Maybe an option for the Ceroc UK Championships 2045!

Paul F
3rd-September-2003, 12:16 PM
Of course they need a new venue first. :blush:

Franck
3rd-September-2003, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by Paul F
Just imagine being able to get a breakdown of feedback from the judges. I especially like the fact that you can see what judge scored for a certain part of the performance. Then they have to justify it :devil: We had that at last year's Scottish Competition, every mark in each category was entered and processed with suitable weighing depending on the category. But each mark remained available for competitors to review after the event.

I did keep the individual judges anonymous to avoid grudges, though those would have been available in case of bias queries.

Many of the competitors were then able to see where they failed / succeeded!

Franck.

David Franklin
3rd-September-2003, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
Judging systems are irrelevant to the majority of people, but seemingly of interest to a few people on this forum.

Those people might be interested in the new system (http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-135692-137000-34133-0-file,00.pdf) being introduced for Ice Skating competitions. A more practical guide is at ESPN's Web Site (http://espn.go.com/oly/s/2003/0326/1530138.html).There's been a huge amount of discussion about this on the skating groups. I'll largely ignore the whole avoiding "bias in judges" thing, because the ESPN and the pdf don't seem to totally match on that and I don't know enough about that. My personal comment on it is that the result will be "even if there's cheating going on, you will never be able to prove it"; which I suspect is a far more satisfactory outcome for the ISU than the rest of the skating world.

On the straight technical evaluation, there are some strange decisions:

Firstly, "missed jumps" are worth points - quite a lot of points. As the ESPN article says, 6.1 marks for a triple lutz - one hand down is a 2 mark deduction, so that's 4.1. Which is more than double the marks for a double lutz executed correctly! Tactically, you may see a lot of people going for jumps they know they won't make, because the marks for failure are still high.

Secondly, combinations are worth less than single jumps. E.g. prepare for 1st triple, jump, prepare for 2nd triple, jump will get more marks than doing the two jumps one after the other, even though the latter is much harder.

Hope this isn't too much a hijacking of the thread - perhaps the relevant point to MJ is that you can have the most technologically advanced scheme in the world, but if you can't trust your judges to (a) judge fairly, and (b) reward the things you want rewarded, you probably won't like the results. As always, Garbage In, Garbage Out...

Dave

Gadget
3rd-September-2003, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by Paul F
I would love to see that implemented in MJ.
You could only impliment it for completley choriographed routines; it allows no flexability for "Freestyle". However there are some features about it I like;

- Having seperate "Technical" judges who would give it a maximum score that the routine could have (if it was performed perfectly) in terms of the complexity and difficulty of the moves.

- Constant rating of the dancers as they perform: I'm imagining a graph sort of thing that lasts the duration of the track, with the judges sliding a scale up and down it depending on how they are impressed at that time. An average of highs and lows could be calculated to give a score
Since the track will be known, the build up's and breaks could be marked on the graph; the technical people would mark the moves on the graph and from a combination of these a technical musical interpritation could be given. The judges would also have to give an artistic musical interpritation.
Later analasys of the information by the dancers could pinpoint what moves scored highly and what moves didn't; exactly where they went right/wrong in a routine.
Imaging watching a recorded video of it with a 'heart monitor' blip in the corner of the screen showing all the judges reactions to the dance. Another corner flicking up the names of the moves as they were being performed. Another dynamically showing the score they are collecting. :waycool:

So that's five touch pads, two PDA's, cameras, one laptop and some analytical software. Maybe 2020 instead of 2045. :wink:

Paul F
3rd-September-2003, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by Gadget

So that's five touch pads, two PDA's, cameras, one laptop and some analytical software. Maybe 2020 instead of 2045. :wink:

I will keep my fingers crossed :wink:

I guess at the end of the day it comes down to the notion of 'who could judge'.
With all the chatter about who is qualified to judge i think the idea of employing 'technical' judges would just open up another huge can of worms.

*wonders where the 'can of worms' saying comes from*

:)

David Franklin
3rd-September-2003, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
You could only impliment it for completley choriographed routines; it allows no flexability for "Freestyle". However there are some features about it I like;

- Having seperate "Technical" judges who would give it a maximum score that the routine could have (if it was performed perfectly) in terms of the complexity and difficulty of the moves.I really worry the emphasis on "complexity and difficulty" for dancing (as opposed to, say gymnastics). In a lot of very good showcases, maybe 90% of the routine isn't technically difficult - it's the way the moves are performed and the way the dancers interact that stands out. Sure, sometimes people will pull out a routine that just crackles with complex moves, but often these won't be the ones people remember. Sometimes it's a move's simplicity that makes it stand out.

Anyone who knows me knows I love routines with lifts and tricks, but I don't think they are necessary in a perfomance (I do 'em to cover up my dancing!). The fact that competitors increasingly think they are is a real shame IMHO.

If you look at the ClubMayan (Salsa) competition - the cabarets have become incredibly theme oriented, with huge numbers of dips, flips and tricks. But turn the sound down, and you can't tell they're dancing salsa anymore - the dance is being lost.

Back to Modern Jive, I can think of one very well danced routine at Blackpool that for me (and others) was spoiled by the dancers putting in a lift that didn't suit them, or the routine. All of a sudden, the main thing you remembered about the routine was the bad lift, not all the great dancing.

Here's a thought: In the open category, instead of allowing aerials, we should disallow all but the beginner moves. Then we'd see some emphasis on musicality...

Dave

Franck
3rd-September-2003, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by David Franklin
Here's a thought: In the open category, instead of allowing aerials, we should disallow all but the beginner moves. Then we'd see some emphasis on musicality... I agree with your post David, and thought the quote above is a brilliant idea!
Could we have a 'Combs' category too :D :wink:

i think that limiting the type of moves you're allowed to perform could bring some very interesting results and be very interesting to watch!

Franck.