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DundeeDancer
1st-September-2007, 12:44 PM
Moved into a thread of its own, rather than adding to an ancient thread on a different topic. – ducasi


Oh yes, and while I'm having a rant, here's another one that I haven't seen at HIpsters but have seen in most other places. Why do some guys walk out into the line at the start of the lesson and hold their hand up for a woman to join them? Is this good manners? Couldn't they go and ask a woman to join them? To me it looks like they're saying the equivalent of "Have a woman washed and brought to my room". When I fully become Lily I'll never, ever do anything that would make those guys take their hand down - in other words girls, don't stand in front of them when they do that, just join the line of waiting women or ask a guy to be your partner in the lesson:devil: Perhaps a quizzical or disgusted look would be appropriate too:wink:

This happens at my venue to and I'm jelous of the guys that have the nerve to do it. As I'm new to Ceroc 10 weeks or so I don't know that many people to ask to dance so I always hang back a little and by the time I find a partner I usually find myself stuck at the back of the hall and then struggle to see what's happening on stage. As it's usually the women that rotate round I'm stuck in this crap position for the whole of the class. Half seeing the moves and being a beginner to the intermediate class this means these lessons are a real challenge. I would love to run on to the dance floor and get a great position to view the lesson from and then wait for a lady to join me but there is this fear in the back of my mind that no one will come and join me and I'll need to slink off to the side with everyone watching me thinking haha no body wanted to dance with him :blush:

The last few lessons I compromise by selecting a partner early on then hurrying them onto the floor so I get a resonable position.

Jeez this Ceroc is a complicated business :grin:

johnnyman
3rd-September-2007, 05:00 PM
These may be worth trying in future. I know I have tried these with success.

When the teacher says 'Find yourself a partner' raise your hand before the lines have formed or indicate to someone arriving on the dance floor or asking 'Would you like to be my partner for this class?' and if you get a 'yes' to get to near or at the front as quickly as possible.

best
johnnyman

straycat
3rd-September-2007, 05:29 PM
I remember a lovely moment in a workshop I attended, about a year ago. We'd just partnered up, and the teacher asked all the spare followers to put their hands up, then asked if there were any spare leads. A couple of guys responded, and a couple of the spare follows started walking over to them...

And the teacher asked them to stop and go back to where they'd been standing, and told the leads to go to the follows. Then he gave us a small talk on dancefloor ettiquette, and the importance he placed on leaders taking care of their partners.

Gav
3rd-September-2007, 05:34 PM
I've been in a few lessons recently where the teachers tell men without a partner to stand in line and raise their hands!

I don't think it's got anything to do with nerve, either, I just prefer to go and ask someone. I wouldn't want to have to desperately look around the room for someone to dance with. It may not be personal, but it'd still feel better if someone actually approached me.

Just good old-fashioned manners IMO.

StokeBloke
3rd-September-2007, 06:44 PM
he gave us a small talk on dancefloor ettiquette, and the importance he placed on leaders taking care of their partners.I thought the ettiquette was anyone may ask anyone to dance. It all sounds very chivalrous, but what does it have to do with dancing Ceroc?

As for asking someone if they would like to do the class with you... don't partners move around? I am a little confused why this is all such a big deal. You could argue that all this walking about to pair partners up in the correct manner for them to dance for 30 seconds before moving round is actually inconsiderate to the dancers who are paired up and patiently waiting for the ditherers so they can start learning.

What is wrong with signaling that you are partner-less at the start of a class to speed things along for everyone else in the room?

I hope this doesn't make me sound like too much of an a-hole :D

MartinHarper
3rd-September-2007, 06:50 PM
DundeeDancer: I recommend taking advantage of your newcomer status and taking yourself and your partner to just in front of the stage, budging other folks out of the way if necessary. "I'm new, so I need to see what's going on". No sense suffering in silence.

straycat: In my area followers are clever enough to cross a dancefloor on their own without getting hurt. Mind you most of my local venues are quite small and use the "scatter" method, so dancers have grown comfortable walking up to folks who are on their own on the dancefloor and asking "are you taken?".

Gav: I agree - it is good old-fashioned manners. But having unpartnered folks stick up their hands and look for other folks with their hands stuck up is so much more efficient that I can't help but grow fond of it. Though a recent Joseph and Trisha class with three female leads and two male follows was possibly an exception. Confusion all round.

Twirly
4th-September-2007, 10:10 AM
I'm a bit bemused too. In most classes that I've done, there is a usual spot on one side of the room where spare follows (or leads, as we've had several weeks recently) stand every single week. If you don't have a partner, that is the most likely spot they will have congregated, so just wander over there. You'll either find a spare follow to take into the class, or you'll find your in the right place to take your turn in the rotation.

Then position yourself where you want to be - everyone else does. MH is right - you have an excuse (being new) should you need one. And don't forget, you can always start a new line and be at the front of that if it's very busy.

Andy McGregor
4th-September-2007, 11:11 AM
My own opinion of this is that guys should ask ladies to be their partner at the start of the lesson.

I think it is rude to "ask" by walking on to the floor and holding up your hand. At my classes I tell the ladies waiting to come on, "ladies, stay where you are and wait for the guy to come over and ask you like the gentleman he usually is". Every once in a while I come down off the stage and "demonstrate" how to ask a lady to dance: this demonstration involves kneeling and asking from the kneeling position "would you do me the honour" etc. Sometimes the guys join in and do the same :clap:

When things go wrong in the rotation it's a different matter. Guys need to hold their place in the line and put their hand up to indicate that something has gone wrong with the counting. I spot the raised hand and ask one of the ladies who has just come off to go and join the guy. This saves time and isn't really a lack of manners, it's a different thing altogether.

I was guest teacher at a class recently a guy held his hand up and I went through my usual process, including the kneeling. Everyone enjoyed the show and the guy joined in. However, as soon as I got back on stage another guy joined the line and put his hand up! The ladies knew to stay where they were and I said to the guy, "you'll need to go over and ask the in a gentlemanly way if you'd like a partner". He stood there defiantly and didn't budge - so I started the lesson :devil: Eventually one of the ladies broke the battle of wills and went over to become his partner - maybe she was his wife, but she should have made a stand for chivalry and good manners :flower:

Connie
4th-September-2007, 11:29 AM
My own opinion of this is that guys should ask ladies to be their partner at the start of the lesson.

Any particular reason for this opinion? To me it seems a bit odd that the asking should be done by the men in the start of the class. I assume that you feel it's right from a gentleman's point of view..... To me it looks like the poor women standing in line like a bunch of cattle waiting to be picked. A lady who is shy or a beginner could easily start to think of reasons why she wasnt picked and might not consider the obvious (not enough men to go around) If the lady could do the asking themselves or indeed go out on the floor and wait for a man to join them, they might feel better?

That's not to say I dont like the idea of the men doing the asking :nice: I sure do appreciate a man with old-fashioned manners me. I just think in some instances this "rule" might be counter-productive, and make the women feel insecure rather than special.

Gav
4th-September-2007, 11:35 AM
That's not to say I dont like the idea of the men doing the asking :nice: I sure do appreciate a man with old-fashioned manners me. I just think in some instances this "rule" might be counter-productive, and make the women feel insecure rather than special.

Would being summoned by a hand in the air make you feel better than being asked personally? or how about a shy, under-confident lady that goes to find a man with his hand in the air only to be beaten to it by someone else and have to return to the line of "ladies over" while everyone else watches? I know some people that would be horrified by the thought of that happening to them.

David Bailey
4th-September-2007, 11:43 AM
My own opinion of this is that guys should ask ladies to be their partner at the start of the lesson.
My own opinion is that this is rubbish. :na:

MJ lessons are all about the crowd control - it's quantity and speed that counts, not faffing around trying to be all gentlemanly. It's silly to hold up a class of 60-100 people just for 2 or 3 people. Learners in standard MJ classes are units, they just need to be matched up as quickly as possible. If they want to form deep individual relationships with their dance partner, let them do it in their own time.

MJ etiquette isn't ballroom etiquette - or AT / salsa etiquette for example. So pretending that you "should" act one way - when that never happens in social dancing - is just Evil.

Keefy
4th-September-2007, 11:44 AM
My own opinion of this is that guys should ask ladies to be their partner at the start of the lesson.Why? I know some ladies who would find that attitude a bit condescending :nice: But I agree that you shouldn't just stick your hand in the air and expect somebody to come running at your beck and call (accepted - if there's a rotation problem during the class then that's OK).

As long as somebody asks does it matter who? Sometimes I'm asked, if there's a lady next to me walking onto the floor I'll ask, I ask the first lady in the line (I never pick and choose), or I join the line myself. They all work, they get people onto the dance floor.

Connie
4th-September-2007, 11:44 AM
or how about a shy, under-confident lady that goes to find a man with his hand in the air only to be beaten to it by someone else and have to return to the line of "ladies over" while everyone else watches? I know some people that would be horrified by the thought of that happening to them.

Good point, personally it wouldnt bother me the slightest, but I could see how that would be mortifying to some. My point was (which I perhaps didnt explain very well) that I dont think its nessasarily a good idea to ban ladies to ask men to dance in the start of the class. Both as it might leave an unconfident woman to feel she wasnt picked for some strange notion (not good enough/not thin enough etc etc) and also surely if both men and women are encouraged to do the asking in MJ, it should be reiterated right from the start?

Twirly
4th-September-2007, 11:49 AM
Isn't the point that whoever is doing the asking (men or women) that it be done personally, and not just by what I agree is the somewhat rude mechanism of sticking a hand up in the air at the start and just assuming that someone will turn up to your summons? It's a bit like summoning a waiter in a restuarant.

Knowing that there are usually follows over, I will usually try and find someone in the melee that occurs at the start of the class, particularly intermediates. Am happy to ask. But if I don't spot anyone available, as I said, I just gravitate to the spot where I know we usually wait. And then if there's a late arrival, they usually (at Clapham at any rate) come over and grab someone. There is even an ettiquete at Clapham about taking the first person at the front of the queue, not the one at the back who is probably nearest to the approaching spare dancer.

Andy McGregor
4th-September-2007, 11:49 AM
Any particular reason for this opinion? To me it seems a bit odd that the asking should be done by the men in the start of the class. I assume that you feel it's right from a gentleman's point of view..... To me it looks like the poor women standing in line like a bunch of cattle waiting to be picked. A lady who is shy or a beginner could easily start to think of reasons why she wasnt picked and might not consider the obvious (not enough men to go around) If the lady could do the asking themselves or indeed go out on the floor and wait for a man to join them, they might feel better?

That's not to say I dont like the idea of the men doing the asking :nice: I sure do appreciate a man with old-fashioned manners me. I just think in some instances this "rule" might be counter-productive, and make the women feel insecure rather than special.My reason is based on experience. I've never seen a lady standing in line holding up her hand. IMHO ladies would never be that thoughtless or insensitive :flower: My only "rule" is that guys shouldn't stand in line holding up their hand and expecting a lady to appear in front of him. My "rule" for asking is that both sexes can and should ask each other to dance.

I agree with Connie, it doesn't really matter who does the asking. I find that there's a bit of a scramble when I line people up as the more experienced ladies grab themselves a man and stand where they won't be off in the first rotation. Most teachers, including me, avoid the ladies feeling like a left-over but a simple introduction speech. Something like "Good evening ladies and gentlemen, if you'd like to grab yourselves and partner and come down onto the floor and form 3 lines, here, here and here. If you haven't found yourself a partner come and stand down here at the side and we'll pair you up". Quite often I'll have done a count of men and women in the room and will already know that there's women over and will say something like "we're blessed with more ladies than men tonight, but don't worry if you weren't quick enough we'll move you around so you all get a go". Sometimes I might say something like "you never know, you might get somebody handsome on the next rotation" :devil:

Gav
4th-September-2007, 11:55 AM
Good point, personally it wouldnt bother me the slightest, but I could see how that would be mortifying to some. My point was (which I perhaps didnt explain very well) that I dont think its nessasarily a good idea to ban ladies to ask men to dance in the start of the class. Both as it might leave an unconfident woman to feel she wasnt picked for some strange notion (not good enough/not thin enough etc etc) and also surely if both men and women are encouraged to do the asking in MJ, it should be reiterated right from the start?

I agree entirely. If there were men over, I would say the same should apply. Ladies without a partner should approach the "men over" line for a partner. Let's face it, some men would be horrified to be in the situation I described too.

Andy McGregor
4th-September-2007, 12:22 PM
Why? I know some ladies who would find that attitude a bit condescending :nice: But I agree that you shouldn't just stick your hand in the air and expect somebody to come running at your beck and call (accepted - if there's a rotation problem during the class then that's OK).

As long as somebody asks does it matter who? Sometimes I'm asked, if there's a lady next to me walking onto the floor I'll ask, I ask the first lady in the line (I never pick and choose), or I join the line myself. They all work, they get people onto the dance floor.Sorry, I wan't clear. What I meant was that that the guys should ask rather than stick their hand up. I think the ladies should ask too :flower:



Note to self. Be clearer in my posting :wink:

Andy McGregor
4th-September-2007, 12:34 PM
My own opinion is that this is rubbish. :na:

MJ lessons are all about the crowd control - it's quantity and speed that counts, not faffing around trying to be all gentlemanly. It's silly to hold up a class of 60-100 people just for 2 or 3 people. Learners in standard MJ classes are units, they just need to be matched up as quickly as possible. If they want to form deep individual relationships with their dance partner, let them do it in their own time.This is the response of a Londoner. Throw good manners, etiquette and proper conduct out of the window in favour of speed. And, when it come to speed I think that a guy, standing in line holding up his hand is the general milling around that occurs at the start of a lesson is a slow way of finding a new partner.

I do love it when guys try this when there's men over though. They're stood there holding up their hand and there's guys lining up waiting for a parter - when they realise they have to sheepishly lower their hand and join the line of guys :devil:

straycat
4th-September-2007, 01:52 PM
My own opinion is that this is rubbish. :na:

MJ lessons are all about the crowd control - it's quantity and speed that counts, not faffing around trying to be all gentlemanly.
...
MJ etiquette isn't ballroom etiquette - or AT / salsa etiquette for example. So pretending that you "should" act one way - when that never happens in social dancing - is just Evil.

All depends how you perceive the role of teachers. I like to look at it this way: we want a nice, friendly, polite dancing culture, where people actually do go out of their way to take care of each other. One way of encouraging this in social dancing is to encourage it during lessons. If we're too obsessed about speed to take basic politeness into account, isn't that a pretty sad state of affairs? And a lot of people do tend to follow the examples the teachers set - that does often, in my observation, extend to general behaviour.

Nice example: I was chatting to a member of the bar staff at a local venue a while back, about these issues. Said venue used to play host to a salsa night and a Lindy one, and the barman was saying how polite and friendly everyone at the Lindy night, whereas most of the Salsa attendees were very rude to the staff. The bizarre thing was that there was one particular couple who attended both, and who adopted followed that pattern - when they were at the Lindy night, they were very polite and friendly to the bar staff, whereas at the Salsa one, this same couple were generally quite rude.

This isn't a reflection (I believe) on the dances themselves, but on the ethos of the specific teachers and organisers of the respective events.

I think it matters a lot, and it's worth taking a few extra seconds to show some basic politeness. If you don't encourage people to do this during the lesson, when can you encourage it?

StokeBloke
4th-September-2007, 02:04 PM
But you are NOT asking someone to dance. You are asking them to be a class partner for a minute or two before moving off to the next partner. Should this happen every rotation of the class....

"Two ladies on please..."
"Would you do me the grand honour of being my partner for the next minute of walking through the basket move please m'lady"

One of the great things about MJ is the informality and lack of gender based etiquette; I feel that it makes it more accessible and delightfully disarming for newcomers. Having the Grand Master belittling people for not following rules of his particular Dojo is head and shoulders above what some perceive as the faux pas of putting one's hand in the air to signal that a student is partner-less in my view. As has already been stated here by Andy - after an extensive demonstration of how to ask, the next guy onto the floor made the exact mistake!! If you can't even teach them to line-up the way you want them to, how on earth do you get on teaching them to dance the way you want them to Andy :wink:

It's yet another case of nit-picky tosh that this forum throws up from time to time. If you want to be polite, get to the classes in good time, get your shoes on, get a drink and say your hellos BEFORE the class starts. That way you're not wasting the time of everyone in the room with enough manners to arrive on time and be ready to learn. That is good manners.

David Bailey
4th-September-2007, 02:05 PM
This is the response of a Londoner.
Nah, a real Londoner would be saying "Oi! McGregor! Shut it!" and talking about his faaaamily. Hey, I've seen Eastenders you know.


Throw good manners, etiquette and proper conduct out of the window in favour of speed.
Nope. In all seriousness, the entire standard MJ business model, as developed by Ceroc, is based on a large-class model. Lots of people, moving around rapidly, and trying to mimic a demonstration given by a teacher on a stage. In those circumstances, efficient crowd control becomes essential - more so than in small-volume classes, taught in the round. And anything that impedes such control makes the class more effective.

Gav
4th-September-2007, 02:07 PM
But you are NOT asking someone to dance. You are asking them to be a class partner for a minute or two before moving off to the next partner. Should this happen every rotation of the class....

"Two ladies on please..."
"Would you do me the grand honour of being my partner for the next minute of walking through the basket move please m'lady"

One of the great things about MJ is the informality and lack of gender based etiquette; I feel that it makes it more accessible and delightfully disarming for newcomers. Having the Grand Master belittling people for not following rules of his particular Dojo is head and shoulders above what some perceive as the faux pas of putting one's hand in the air to signal that a student is partner-less in my view. As has already been stated here by Andy - after an extensive demonstration of how to ask, the next guy onto the floor made the exact mistake!! If you can't even teach them to line-up the way you want them to, how on earth do you get on teaching them to dance the way you want them to Andy :wink:

It's yet another case of nit-picky tosh that this forum throws up from time to time. If you want to be polite, get to the classes in good time, get your shoes on, get a drink and say your hellos BEFORE the class starts. That way you're not wasting the time of everyone in the room with enough manners to arrive on time and be ready to learn. That is good manners.

I think you're missing the point.
No-one is suggesting that it should be done at every change of partner during a lesson and those of us that support a more personal approach have all said that it should be from either gender, not just from men. :confused:

David Bailey
4th-September-2007, 02:09 PM
All depends how you perceive the role of teachers.
Hmmm, I'll leave that one, because I'm in a cuddly mood today.


I like to look at it this way: we want a nice, friendly, polite dancing culture, where people actually do go out of their way to take care of each other. One way of encouraging this in social dancing is to encourage it during lessons. If we're too obsessed about speed to take basic politeness into account, isn't that a pretty sad state of affairs? And a lot of people do tend to follow the examples the teachers set - that does often, in my observation, extend to general behaviour.
If you genuinely want "a nice, friendly, polite dancing culture, where people actually do go out of their way to take care of each other", then you need to change the business model, to focus on quality rather than quantity, and spend the extra time talking about etiquette, rather than cramming in as many moves as possible into 30 minutes.

But anyway, I strongly suspect that the atmosphere of classes has very little effect on the atmosphere of social dancing. In my opinion, the only thing that affects the atmosphere of social dancing is the atmosphere of social dancing. Look at salsa / AT classes for an example of this.


I think it matters a lot, and it's worth taking a few extra seconds to show some basic politeness. If you don't encourage people to do this during the lesson, when can you encourage it?
Working the floor?

straycat
4th-September-2007, 02:12 PM
And anything that impedes such control makes the class more effective.
I'm thinking that wasn't quite what you intended to say....

Assuming the opposite meaning, I'm a little unclear on how a little politeness at the start of a lesson would 'impede' that control :cool:

straycat
4th-September-2007, 02:17 PM
If you genuinely want "a nice, friendly, polite dancing culture, where people actually do go out of their way to take care of each other", then you need to change the business model, to focus on quality rather than quantity, and spend the extra time talking about etiquette, rather than cramming in as many moves as possible into 30 minutes.

Or, you could spend a couple of extra minutes in a class encouraging said behaviour. Don't forget that an important part of this business model is to entertain - done right (as described nicely by Andy above), this can be part of the entertainment / putting people in the right mood.



But anyway, I strongly suspect that the atmosphere of classes has very little effect on the atmosphere of social dancing. In my opinion, the only thing that affects the atmosphere of social dancing is the atmosphere of social dancing. Look at salsa / AT classes for an example of this.

Can you be more specific? My own experience is more-or-less the opposite (one instance described above).



Working the floor?
So doing it one-on-one is more efficient and time-effective than when you have a captive audience? Hmmmmm. I'll have to ponder that one :cool:

StokeBloke
4th-September-2007, 02:19 PM
I think you're missing the point.
No-one is suggesting that it should be done at every change of partner during a lesson and those of us that support a more personal approach have all said that it should be from either gender, not just from men. :confused:No, this IS the point. Why should your first class pairing of the dance lesson be given extra special ceremony and importance? It is not etiquette, it is just confusing tosh. Modern Jive has a tradition stretching back for hundreds of weeks... there is not yet One True Path when it comes to MJ, so maybe it would be an idea not to pretend there is - especially if you are a flippin' teacher!

StokeBloke
4th-September-2007, 02:22 PM
Don't forget that an important part of this business model is to entertain - done right (as described nicely by Andy above), this can be part of the entertainment / putting people in the right mood.Unless of course you are the poor sod standing in the middle of the class being mocked.. oppps... sorry I mean taught the correct etiquette :rolleyes:

David Bailey
4th-September-2007, 02:22 PM
I'm thinking that wasn't quite what you intended to say....
Errr, could be :blush:


Assuming the opposite meaning, I'm a little unclear on how a little politeness at the start of a lesson would 'impede' that control :cool:
Have you been to Finchley?

The attendees there take the concept of "a little introductory chatter" to extremes... :sick: :rofl:

A little less conversation, a little more action.

Gav
4th-September-2007, 02:24 PM
No, this IS the point. Why should your first class pairing of the dance lesson be given extra special ceremony and importance? It is not etiquette, it is just confusing tosh. Modern Jive has a tradition stretching back for hundreds of weeks... there is not yet One True Path when it comes to MJ, so maybe it would be an idea not to pretend there is - especially if you are a flippin' teacher!

Ahh, now you should have said that in the first place, because your first post was a load of irrelevant arguments against points that nobody had made.

Onto your actual point :rolleyes:, if there is no one true way, then who are you to say which was is right and which way is wrong?
I'll do it my way, you do it yours and neither of us will cause each other any grief by doing so.

Andy McGregor
4th-September-2007, 02:25 PM
No, this IS the point. Why should your first class pairing of the dance lesson be given extra special ceremony and importance? It is not etiquette, it is just confusing tosh. Modern Jive has a tradition stretching back for hundreds of weeks... there is not yet One True Path when it comes to MJ, so maybe it would be an idea not to pretend there is - especially if you are a flippin' teacher!I don't think that the first class pairing is what is being debated. We're debating good manners. And it is not, IMHO, good manners to start the evening by inviting an unknown lady to dance with you as if she were some kind of short-order waitress :mad:

Raising your hand during the lesson to indicate that the rotation has gone wrong is a different matter altogether.

straycat
4th-September-2007, 02:25 PM
No, this IS the point. Why should your first class pairing of the dance lesson be given extra special ceremony and importance?

Because it's special. Because this dance we do is special. Because our partners that we dance with are special. Because if I keep that in mind, it does a lot to enhance my enjoyment, and the enjoyment of the people I dance with. And because when I forget it, and start taking it all for granted, I can start turning into a right grumpy git.

And because looking around me at dance events, I can often see that I 'm not the only one :whistle:

David Bailey
4th-September-2007, 02:28 PM
Or, you could spend a couple of extra minutes in a class encouraging said behaviour.
If you encourage chat, you get chat - and you end up with, well, Finchley. :whistle:


Can you be more specific? My own experience is more-or-less the opposite (one instance described above).
AT / salsa classes are often quite friendly, as much as or more so than MJ classes. I've made some good friends recently through AT classes.
However, the AT and social scene is, shall we say, less so...


So doing it one-on-one is more efficient and time-effective than when you have a captive audience?
It's more effective. If you experience a teacher's politeness personally, just once, it's more likely to listen to him / her say it a hundred times. People just dont listen in classes, especially in large ones.

And they certainly won't listen to an MJ teacher gabbing about etiquette all the time; they'll be busy either trying to remember the move pattern, or trying to chat up their new partner. Or possibly both.

Andy McGregor
4th-September-2007, 02:36 PM
Unless of course you are the poor sod standing in the middle of the class being mocked.. oppps... sorry I mean taught the correct etiquette :rolleyes:They don't do it twice :devil:

Andy McGregor
4th-September-2007, 02:40 PM
And they certainly won't listen to an MJ teacher gabbing about etiquette all the time; they'll be busy either trying to remember the move pattern, or trying to chat up their new partner. Or possibly both.And this is why I do it at the start of the lesson. It's really hard to get the attention of the whole class during the lesson. And I don't expect it. There are people who know the move I'm teaching, it's quite reasonable for them to fill in the time I'm teaching a move they know by chatting up their partner.

However, one thing I have noticed is that often the people who do not get the move are the ones who spend a lot of their time chatting with their partner :confused:

StokeBloke
4th-September-2007, 02:53 PM
They don't do it twice :devil:I'm sure you're right. Humiliation can be a very effective tool, bit of a blunt instrument, but very effective.

Although Twirlie Bird and I recently met into a guy we used to see at one of the venues we used to dance at. He said he had been humiliated during a class by the instructor (this instructor is not a CTA qualified teacher, but regularly 'fills in'). Our friend said that after being ridiculed he left as soon as the class had finished and he has never gone back to any of this guy's venues since. I'm not sure that is a business model that Ceroc should be cultivating.

David Bailey
4th-September-2007, 03:14 PM
I'm sure you're right. Humiliation can be a very effective tool, bit of a blunt instrument, but very effective.
That's what I thought when I read that too :rofl:

straycat
4th-September-2007, 03:46 PM
If you encourage chat, you get chat - and you end up with, well, Finchley. :whistle:
If you do the etiquette stuff badly, yes. Not if you do it well.



AT / salsa classes are often quite friendly, as much as or more so than MJ classes. I've made some good friends recently through AT classes.
However, the AT and social scene is, shall we say, less so...

Interesting. Are the ... less friendly ... elements the same people as the ones who attend the classes in a friendly fashion?



It's more effective. If you experience a teacher's politeness personally, just once, it's more likely to listen to him / her say it a hundred times. People just dont listen in classes, especially in large ones.

And if you experience everyone's politeness all the time, it's even better. As for not listening - universal problem, yes, but that's down to how the class is handled. I've seen it done really well, and really badly. Where it was done well, even in a big class, most listened, and it sunk home.



And they certainly won't listen to an MJ teacher gabbing about etiquette all the time; they'll be busy either trying to remember the move pattern, or trying to chat up their new partner. Or possibly both.

Why Mr James. If I didn't know better, I'd say you were being cynical - that's not like you :wink:

Andy McGregor
4th-September-2007, 04:37 PM
I'm sure you're right. Humiliation can be a very effective tool, bit of a blunt instrument, but very effective.I suppose it depends on how you do it. At our classes the hand up at the start of the lesson is not the norm. It's just plain bad manners. I assume that somebody who is thick-skinned enough to draw attention to thier bad manners by raising their hand is also thick skinned enough to take a bit of gentle mickey taking. I do it really gently - I learnt this particular aspect of my teaching from Nina Daines. And she wasn't gentle at all, she was, as usual, scary :eek:

ducasi
4th-September-2007, 08:21 PM
While waving randomly to attract any spare person's attention is a little gauche, I think that dancers of either sex joining a class could sometimes try a little more to find a partner on the floor rather than assume that they are destined to always be spare.

David Bailey
5th-September-2007, 08:24 AM
Interesting. Are the ... less friendly ... elements the same people as the ones who attend the classes in a friendly fashion?
Christ, I dunno, I can't even remember my own name most of the time, don't expect me to remember details about anyone else. Well, unless they've got big boobs, of course.

Gadget
5th-September-2007, 01:24 PM
I am for the practice of the leads raising a hand at the beginning of the lesson to indicate that they don't have a partner; it is simply attracting the attention of anyone else looking for a partner. Once the eye has been caught, then you don't need to keep the hand raised.
I would only consider it rude if the person sticking their hand up was not looking for a partner at the same time eg. chatting to the person next to them.

Putting your hand up has one primary advantage in my opinion: as a lead you can stake your claim and get a spot closer to the stage.
It also has a psychological advantage that any followers waiting can see that you don't belong to any groups or cliques; you don't have a preference for any particular dancer, and so are more approachable.
I would say that it should also result in the class being quicker to get organised because the lead simply goes and stands in line and the follower joins them - otherwise the lead has to go collect the follower, then take their place in line. A to B rather than A to B via detour C.

I'm a bit confused about Andy's example from the stage: it's rude to seek out a partner without moving, but it's not rude to humiliate someone infront of their social circle :confused:

Andy McGregor
5th-September-2007, 04:14 PM
I'm a bit confused about Andy's example from the stage: it's rude to seek out a partner without moving, but it's not rude to humiliate someone infront of their social circle :confused:In my example I demonstrated how to ask a lady to dance and how not to ask a lady to dance. Immediately after my demonstration a guy walked on to the floor and did exactly what I said guys should not do. Who was trying to humiliate who?

Andy McGregor
5th-September-2007, 04:16 PM
I am for the practice of the leads raising a hand at the beginning of the lesson to indicate that they don't have a partner; it is simply attracting the attention of anyone else looking for a partner. Once the eye has been caught, then you don't need to keep the hand raised.
I would only consider it rude if the person sticking their hand up was not looking for a partner at the same time eg. chatting to the person next to them.

Putting your hand up has one primary advantage in my opinion: as a lead you can stake your claim and get a spot closer to the stage.
It also has a psychological advantage that any followers waiting can see that you don't belong to any groups or cliques; you don't have a preference for any particular dancer, and so are more approachable.
I would say that it should also result in the class being quicker to get organised because the lead simply goes and stands in line and the follower joins them - otherwise the lead has to go collect the follower, then take their place in line. A to B rather than A to B via detour C.You tell that to Nina Daines the next time you meet her. See how long you can survive her death stare. I think the record is .29 of a second, and that was wearing sunglasses:eek:

straycat
5th-September-2007, 04:17 PM
Christ, I dunno, I can't even remember my own name most of the time, don't expect me to remember details about anyone else. Well, unless they've got big boobs, of course.

I have to admire your market research techniques there, Mr Jim :whistle:

Andy McGregor
5th-September-2007, 04:18 PM
Well, unless they've got bare boobs, of courseI think I'd raise both hands over my head in surrender - and to keep my hands busy and out of harm's way :devil:

Whitebeard
6th-September-2007, 02:50 AM
I think I'd raise both hands over my head in surrender - and to keep my hands busy and out of harm's way :devil:

Cowardly cowardly custard, embrace the moment and twiddla a cuppla juicey nibbles !!!

Lou
6th-September-2007, 09:08 AM
Cowardly cowardly custard, embrace the moment and twiddla a cuppla juicey nibbles !!!

I'll have what he's having.... :na:

straycat
6th-September-2007, 01:51 PM
You tell that to Nina Daines the next time you meet her. See how long you can survive her death stare. I think the record is .29 of a second, and that was wearing sunglasses:eek:

Oh - I think you'll find it's a bit longer that that. And with practice, one can even become immune to it.... :waycool: (mostly immune, anyway)

Andy McGregor
6th-September-2007, 02:14 PM
Oh - I think you'll find it's a bit longer that that. And with practice, one can even become immune to it.... :waycool: (mostly immune, anyway) I think you will find she was just toying with you and using her Death Stare "Lite" version :waycool:

TurboTomato
12th-September-2007, 12:01 PM
But you are NOT asking someone to dance. You are asking them to be a class partner for a minute or two before moving off to the next partner. Should this happen every rotation of the class....

"Two ladies on please..."
"Would you do me the grand honour of being my partner for the next minute of walking through the basket move please m'lady"

One of the great things about MJ is the informality and lack of gender based etiquette; I feel that it makes it more accessible and delightfully disarming for newcomers. Having the Grand Master belittling people for not following rules of his particular Dojo is head and shoulders above what some perceive as the faux pas of putting one's hand in the air to signal that a student is partner-less in my view. As has already been stated here by Andy - after an extensive demonstration of how to ask, the next guy onto the floor made the exact mistake!! If you can't even teach them to line-up the way you want them to, how on earth do you get on teaching them to dance the way you want them to Andy :wink:

It's yet another case of nit-picky tosh that this forum throws up from time to time. If you want to be polite, get to the classes in good time, get your shoes on, get a drink and say your hellos BEFORE the class starts. That way you're not wasting the time of everyone in the room with enough manners to arrive on time and be ready to learn. That is good manners.
:yeah:

killingtime
12th-September-2007, 02:08 PM
I'm in the "get the woman from the side" camp and I do find it a little rude when I see guys who hold up their hands expecting a woman to arrive. However:

During intermediate classes I'll generally see someone I know and go up to her and ask her if she'd like to start the class with me. In part so we can talk and catch up, failing that I'm lucking, I guess, in the fact that women often ask me.

I can't remember the last time I turned up for the start of the beginner's class so I'm pretty much joining mid-class. The least disruptive approach is to fetch a partner from the "line" and take her to a spot.

Gav
13th-September-2007, 11:00 AM
When I'm at a class on my own (which is most of the time, just call me Billy :tears: :tears:), as the teachers call everyone to order, I'll either ask someone near me at the time or go directly to the front corner where the "spare" ladies (awful expression, I know) gather and ask someone to join me.

I find it generally saves me having to stand with my hand in the air announcing to all "look at me! I have no-one to dance with. I don't smell, honest". :D

Andy McGregor
13th-September-2007, 11:28 AM
front corner where the "spare" ladies (awful expression, I know) gather and ask someone to join me.I do everything I can to avoid saying "spare ladies". I call them "ladies in waiting" I usually put out a line of chairs and call them my ladies in waiting chairs - I keep the name when there's guys over, "move round 3 guys and the guys coming off the end of row 26 please come and sit in the ladies in waiting chairs" sometimes a joke never wears out :innocent:

killingtime
13th-September-2007, 11:32 AM
I keep the name when there's guys over, "move round 3 guys and the guys coming off the end of row 26 please come and sit in the ladies in waiting chairs" sometimes a joke never wears out :innocent:

Your class sounds like a riot :what:.

brawBloke
4th-November-2007, 09:41 PM
I do everything I can to avoid saying "spare ladies". I call them "ladies in waiting" I usually put out a line of chairs and call them my ladies in waiting chairs - I keep the name when there's guys over, "move round 3 guys and the guys coming off the end of row 26 please come and sit in the ladies in waiting chairs" sometimes a joke never wears out :innocent:

In order to avoid appearing sexist, some people can appear... sexist.

I wonder if you would ever consider humiliating a woman in front of a crowd? Are men somehow fair game for that treatment?

Minnie M
4th-November-2007, 10:33 PM
In order to avoid appearing sexist, some people can appear... sexist.

I wonder if you would ever consider humiliating a woman in front of a crowd? Are men somehow fair game for that treatment?

You obviously have never met Mr. McGregor :innocent:

StokeBloke
5th-November-2007, 10:17 PM
In order to avoid appearing sexist, some people can appear... sexist.

I wonder if you would ever consider humiliating a woman in front of a crowd? Are men somehow fair game for that treatment?
You're not the only one to see the glaring double standard in Mr MsGregor's 'etiquette'. Ladies are for going ceremoniously down on one knee in front of in a psudeo-chivalrous manner, guys are for scoring points off of.

It's a weird model to abuse the guys when they are always in such short supply :whistle: Our local Ceroc franchise has lost guys from his venues for this sort of behavior in the past. It's a lose-lose situation for all concerned.