Most Popular dance style in UK

[Dr Fuzz]

Hi guys, in Oz ceroc would probably be the most popular dance style (well definitely in Sydney anyway). I used to go to Salsa classes and on a good night 10-20 people would rock up but on my first ceroc night there was at least about 200+ at the venue (Heaven! :grin: ). Most other classes would flirt around the 40 to 200 plus number.

Does this hold true in Scotland and England? I've heard that ceroc is big but is it the most popular dance style over there? I am prettty curious since I've heard that there's been a Salsa revival in the UK and of course its the place to be for ballroom. Love to hear your responses.

Cheers

DrFuzz

:innocent:

[Will]

I have heard that Ceroc has overtaken Salsa as the most popular dance form in the UK, though I don't have any proof or statistics so don't quote me on that. It suspect it is the case after having a little tour of the London Salsa scene.

Not sure about Scotland because I have no idea how big the Salsa scene is in Scotland, but Ceroc in Scotland was rockin big time the last time I was up there!

[spindr]

Surely the most popular dance in the UK is the elevator dance?

Neil.

[Chris]

I don't really know enough about the UK scene outside of Ceroc/Jive(!), but certainly in Edinburgh there are more salsa classes in any one week, and more varied, than there are Ceroc; but the classes are smaller, usually limited by not having big venues. UK-wide there seem to be as many salsa congresses as there are large Ceroc/jive gatherings/sprees, but they are often more expensive, although they maybe have more teachers from abroad and more regularly (also plenty of free or low cost events, on teh other hand). At the end of the day though they are quite different - the salsa scene is not 'organised' the way Ceroc and jive is and doesn't have the same structure; on the other hand, it's more universal, danced in pubs and clubs somewhere or other in most countries around the world that I've been too. I don't do Lindy/Swing but that seems (to me) to maybe have a bigger cross-over with Ceroc in the UK at least. Ceroc and Swing dances have a great popularity as much of our music in the 'western world' is suitable to one or the other :what:

[TheTramp]

I'm not quite sure how anyone could possibly come up with that statistic Will.

Easy enough to work out how many people go to Ceroc each week. But given that Salsa is much less organised - lots of little clubs all over the place, with no real structure, how anybody could ever count the numbers is totally beyond me.

And by 'Ceroc', do you mean Modern Jive in all of it's incarnations countrywide (Blitz, Mo'Jive, Leroc etc.).

Sounds like a bit of marketing, done by..... ?? :D

Mind you, in Scotland - well Dundee anyhow - I think from experience, I'd have to agree with this unknown statistic. Trying to find a salsa class here is like trying to get blood from a stone :D Have found one now, but it's only in term time, and I'm not sure whether there's much freestyle yet, or whether it's just a class. Ah well, since it's with the college, and hence free for me, I think I'll go along. Besides, there's nowt else to do on a Friday! :D

Steve

[Neil]

Originally posted by TheTramp
But given that Salsa is much less organised - lots of little clubs all over the place, with no real structure...

Seems to me that's a great opportunity for a budding entrepreneur somewhere. Come up with a simplified form of Salsa, set up a nationwide organisation and call it, say, Celsa® :devil:

Neil

[frodo]

Originally posted by Dr Fuzz
...
Does this hold true in Scotland and England? I've heard that Ceroc is big but is it the most popular dance style over there? I am pretty curious since I've heard that there's been a Salsa revival in the UK and of course its the place to be for ballroom. Love to hear your responses.
...
:innocent: Taking a random sample city of say 4-5 hundred thousand people, and a very rough count :-


Modern Jive
8 classes a week, from 5 organisations, and 3+ dances a month.

Salsa
12 classes a week from 5 organisations (1 Modern Jive style dance a month + perhaps 1-3 non class nights a week).

Lindy Hop
1 class a week (small venue).

Tango(Argentine)
2 classes a week, from 2 organisations + salons maybe 3 out of 4 weeks.

Latin & Ballroom
3 classes a week from 1 organisation, + 2 dances a month.


Small Print:

*This is term time.
*Excluding organisations without an accessible website - probably hits Latin & Ballroom hardest, and Modern Jive least hard.
*R&R not included.
*Probably lots more private lessons in Latin & Ballroom.
*Excluding University classes not clearly open to the general public.
*University Latin & Ballroom societies can often be the biggest student societies (probably true in this sample).
*Multiple classes of the same type on the same night (but perhaps of a different level, so different groups may attend) are treated as a single class.
*Salsa classes tend to be less long running than others, which may make the figures flatter Salsa.
*Outside standard working hours.
*Obviously excludes anything I don't know happen to know about.
*Corrections are welcome.
*
* ...
*

[bigdjiver]

In my experience, on average, Salsa classes are about half the size of Modern jive ones.

[Will]

Steve, as you know from when we discussed this and as you you can also see from my post, there are no strict statistics, only estimates, therefore no-one did come up with any. Though from what I've been hearing, it is widely accepted by the media - and yes of course this includes all modern jive organisations whether they still call themselves Ceroc or not.

My only experience is limited to London, but it does seem to be the case here. Like bigdjiver said, there are just as many Salsa venues (if not more) than Ceroc / Modern Jive, but they always seem to have far less people per venue / class. This is my experience too.

At the end of the day, bigger than Salsa or not, if what we do grows as quickly in the next 23 years as it has in the last, then its not just gonna be the Ceroc Champs that needs to find a bigger venue! :wink:


Originally posted by TheTramp
I'm not quite sure how anyone could possibly come up with that statistic Will.

Easy enough to work out how many people go to Ceroc each week. But given that Salsa is much less organised - lots of little clubs all over the place, with no real structure, how anybody could ever count the numbers is totally beyond me.

And by 'Ceroc', do you mean Modern Jive in all of it's incarnations countrywide (Blitz, Mo'Jive, Leroc etc.).

Sounds like a bit of marketing, done by..... ?? :D

Mind you, in Scotland - well Dundee anyhow - I think from experience, I'd have to agree with this unknown statistic. Trying to find a salsa class here is like trying to get blood from a stone :D Have found one now, but it's only in term time, and I'm not sure whether there's much freestyle yet, or whether it's just a class. Ah well, since it's with the college, and hence free for me, I think I'll go along. Besides, there's nowt else to do on a Friday! :D

Steve

[Heather]

:D I am reading this thread with interest, and one point which no-one has made yet is that although both Salsa and Ceroc are partner dances, with Ceroc you do not actually need to bring a partner along with you to dance with.
I cannot speak from personal experience as regards Salsa, and can only quote friends who have dabbled in Salsa classes, but the big problem for them was that, as women on their own, it was extremely difficult to find a willing male to go along to classes and learn with.Thus a lot of women go along to Salsa with their female friends and one learn to dance as the woman and the other as a man.This resulted in these ladies giving up fairly quickly.
Contrast this with Ceroc/ Modern jive classes where a woman can go along on her own and learn the moves knowing that she can actually dance with any man in the room, none of whom she has had to 'drag along ' with her.
I myself took lessons in 'jive' at a local ballroom , many years ago,(in the days before Ceroc), but I had to bring my pal, who danced as a man, the consequence of this was that we learned a set routine, which we could only do together with her as the man and me as the woman. We couldn't dance with anyone else or swop roles.
Of course there are always exceptions and I would not dream of making generalisations ( I know The Tramp will be at the Dundee Salsa classes, a male on his own without a partner) but I do think that Ceroc/Modern jive has a formula which allows it to be more accessable to the people who want (or have to) go along on their own, to learn a form of partner dance.
I am quite sure that, should I be disproved, I'll be given a flaming by Forum Members!!
:hug: :kiss:
Heather,
X

[Gus]

Originally posted by Will

At the end of the day, bigger than Salsa or not, if what we do grows as quickly in the next 23 years as it has in the last, then its not just gonna be the Ceroc Champs that needs to find a bigger venue! :wink: Urrr ... in the three years I was receiving Ceroc stats I think that annual growth was ony around 5% .... and as many clubs fail as succeed ... ish.

No doubt Modern Jive will expand but in Birmingham and Manchester there are MANY Salsa cubs and very few Modern Jive. Athough Modern Jive is undoubtedly easier to learn, Salsa looks far better ... I didnt think Viktor and Lydia coud look any better till I saw them doing Salsa.

[Will]

Originally posted by Gus
Urrr ... in the three years I was receiveing Ceroc stats I think that annual growth was ony around 5% .... and as many clubs fail as succeed ... ish. I have no idea what growth stats you or anyone else has seen. I'm merely commenting on how many hundreds of thousands of us dance Ceroc / Modern Jive now compared to 1980. :blush:

[Neil]

Originally posted by Heather
one point which no-one has made yet is that although both Salsa and Ceroc are partner dances, with Ceroc you do not actually need to bring a partner along with you to dance with. In my very limited experience of Salsa, with the classes I've been to you can just turn up on your own and the partners are rotated Ã* la Ceroc (although less frequently). I do know that in other classes you're stuck with the same partner for the whole class, which I suppose could either be a good thing or not, depending...

The key difference is, of course, in the footwork. I think a lot of men who do not consider themselves to be natural dancers can turn up (or be dragged along) to Ceroc and be pleasantly surprised at how easy it is, whereas Salsa is a whole different ballgame. This group (the "dance-resistant") forms a large proportion of the male population: hence, again in my limited experience, the preponderance of women at Salsa classes.

At present, based on absolutely no statistical evidence whatsoever, I would say that the numbers doing Ceroc (modern jive) and Salsa are roughly equal. I would contend, however, that modern jive has enormous potential for expansion, while Salsa does not, as in it present form its market will always be restricted to "natural" dancers and/or those with a keen interest in dancing. Discuss :).

Neil

[Dr Fuzz]

That is quite an interesting collection of responses, I guess from my experiences Salsa and ballroom begineer classes were fair sized but by the end of the, say 8 week course, the numbers would have dropped off by about 50 - 75%. In ceroc the trend tends to go differently where the begineer class tends to the smaller than the following intermediate class. I guess the ceroc formula of not running set period classes really does the trick. :nice:

True Neil, I think the ease which the footwork can be picked up has sure dragged in the guys. I found back home that the music really had alot to do with it since Salsa / latin venues are rarer while its easier to rock up to the local club and find a dance floor with 'cerocable' music being played. Cheers.

[Neil]

Originally posted by Dr Fuzz
I found back home that the music really had alot to do with it since Salsa / latin venues are rarer while its easier to rock up to the local club and find a dance floor with 'cerocable' music being played. Absolutely. The variety of music you can dance to is a big plus for modern jive in the great Ceroc vs. Salsa debate. I have to agree with Gus though that, on the whole, Salsa scores in the looks department.

Neil

[Gus]

Originally posted by Neil
Absolutely. The variety of music you can dance to is a big plus for modern jive in the great Ceroc vs. Salsa debate.

Neil Probably one of the key points. I like Salsa but find the music bores me to death afetr a while. The fact that you can dance Ceroc to 'normal' music and it being relatively easy to learn should give it a major competitive edge. One day it could well be that Modern Jive is recognised as a main stream dance ..... but as Modern Jive franchisees we've been saying that for at least the last 5 years. I still wonder what it will take to get Modern Jive better known and accepted. Whoever comes up with the winning idea will be most welcome:grin: .

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Gus
Salsa looks far better ... Maybe.

I would agree that the best Salsa dancers look better than the best Modern Jive dancers. Salsa has an advantage that there are quite a few full time professional salsa dancers across the world. That has a very significant impact on the standard of dancing and teaching at the top level. No-one has ever really pushed the boundaries of what you can do in Modern Jive, whereas this has been done frequently in Salsa.

But if you take an average (but enthusiastic!) beginner, and start them off doing both Salsa and Modern Jive, I'd say the modern jive looks better.

Apart from the dancers, is there anything in the dance itself that makes one better than the other?

David

PS In my very limited experience I'd say that Modern Jive teachers deliver a better class (ie clearer, more structured, better presented, more accessable) than Salsa teachers...

[Gus]

Originally posted by DavidB
Maybe.

I would agree that the best Salsa dancers look better than the best Modern Jive dancers. .......No-one has ever really pushed the boundaries of what you can do in Modern Jive, whereas this has been done frequently in Salsa.Agree ... but then it raises the question as to what Modern Jive is about. It could be argued that as it has no clear style in itself, it would be hard to devllop to the same level as Salsa.

Maybe a more compelling argument is that ... why should it? For the vast majority of people it is a relatively easy way into dance and meets the requirements of the vast majority. Possibly on the limited few wish to puch the boundaries ... and the few that I know of (Viktor & Lydia, Nigel and Nina, Dan Baines etc.) all seem to have done this through another dance medium rather than through Modern Jive itself. Then again, is the combination of styles an example of pushing Modern Jive forward :confused:

[bigdjiver]

Originally posted by Gus
Agree ... but then it raises the question as to what Modern Jive is about ...
For the vast majority of people it is a relatively easy way into dance and meets the requirements of the vast majority. Possibly on the limited few wish to puch the boundaries ... James Cronin described Ceroc as "The McDonalds of dance". To all of us that know that Modern Jive can be an art form this may seem contemptuous, but I believe that he is right, keep it as simple as possible at entry level, accessible and enjoyable for as many as possible.

Ballroom dancing used to be extremely popular, but I believe that it was partly killed as a mass pursuit by the quest for perfection, the "proper" way of doing it. Even modern swing dancing is derived from the "greats" rather than the common folks, which makes it lovely to watch, but less popular to learn for the average person.

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by DavidB

PS In my very limited experience I'd say that Modern Jive teachers deliver a better class (ie clearer, more structured, better presented, more accessable) than Salsa teachers... I briefly did some Salsa 2 years or so ago and a class i went to in London had one of the best teachers ive ever had for any sort of dance - just goes to show that its the teacher that matters not the dance. Saying that though, 'Best teacher' is only a personal opinion... everyone learns things differently especially when it comes to dance :). I actually teach IT but though Im ok at that :) I doubt i'd make a good dance teacher - i cant even explain to my partner whats going on :D.

[Tiggerbabe]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
i cant even explain to my partner whats going on :D.
Mr Smurf, you are way too hard on yourself. I thoroughly enjoyed our dances on Saturday night and thought you led beautifully :D

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by Sheena
Mr Smurf, you are way too hard on yourself. I thoroughly enjoyed our dances on Saturday night and thought you led beautifully :D thankyou again Sheena :) but theres a big difference between leading a move and explaining what Im doing. I was talking about my ability to break anything down and explain it in any way, or even to analyze what im doing sometimes. Fi has suggested moves whilst we have been dancing before and now she realises its entirely pointless, i simply cannot insert a move on demand whilst im already dancing or analyze a move i just did. Whilst that may seem good in some ways, i have great trouble when starting to do something new - West Coast Swing for example, I've done quite a few classes and workshops in that and not got anywhere because it requires me to think (i do a mean sugar push ..and...er...that's it) :). If i was to stick at something though....fine, it would just take me longer than some :D

Apologies if that makes no sense :) further proof what a great dance teacher I'd make ;)

[Chicklet]

Originally posted by Sheena
Mr Smurf, you are way too hard on yourself. I thoroughly enjoyed our dances on Saturday night and thought you led beautifully :D So did I!!!!

and anyone who can lead me must be no bad at a'!:D

*insert lovie moment* and didn't Mrs Smurf look stunning all night too!!!

[Gus]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe

Apologies if that makes no sense :) further proof what a great dance teacher I'd make ;) BIG DIFFERENCE .... Ceroc teachers teach a formula ..... we learn a large number of moves by rote, are intensely trained how to present them using a set template (must admit that being slow to never previously noticing that teachers always used the same words to teach moves). Being a great dancer is not important, being a competent dancer and a clear communicator is. That said, after teachers become more experienced they tend to bring more of their own perosnality to the role.

From my limited experince of Salsa teachers, they seem to be very good dancers wo are now trying to pass on that knowledge with their own devised teaching structure ... most of which I've found to be unclear, with the occaisional wonderfull exception. I look forwrad to seeing Lydia teaching Salsa as I've heard very good reports.:yum: