Natural ability or time been around ?

[stewart38]

It has just occurred to me after 9yrs of dancing ceroc I will never be better then average (and I have done the 4/5 times a week thing in the past) :sad:

I have seen people start in ceroc who I would say surpass me after 3 months !

I know in snooker I will never score a 100 but I never put in enough practice (I don't play now)

Question is if anyone like me was given advance tuition would they ever get anywhere

ie Is a good dancer 50% natural ability and 50% work

Do I need a Simon Cowell who would say you are and always will be Happy Eater material not ceroc idol not even cruise ship?

In my defense I do think I have a good sense of rhythm and my twin brother has two left feet :nice:

[Jayne]

Good post....

IMHO, I'd say it was about 60% natural ability, 30% training and 10% experience. Someone can naturally be OK but it takes training to be good; but without some natural ability you'll never be good.

In the Peggy Spencer interview Chicklet mentioned last week (?) she reckoned that being brought up surrounded by music made a difference. She said that if you're surrounded by music you'll grow up responding to it and therefore more likely to be good dancer. I don't agree with that, mainly because music was barely in the house (until I was a teenager.. :rolleyes: ) but I still reckon I respond differently to different types of music (IMHO again..)

As for genetics of dancing ability I'd put my money on a single gene, with the allele for not dancing being dominant over the one for dancing... but that's another thesis....

enjoy!
J :nice:

[stewart38]

So I'll never be a ceroc idol in a million yrs :tears:

[DavidB]

I'd say 80% of the people I consider really good dancers have the natural talent. The other 20% did it the hard way.

I don't equate dancing '7 times a week' with 'practicing to get better'. (I do equate it with having 7 times the fun of going once a week!) It might help at first, but after a while you just repeat the same mistakes, because you don't know any better.

Tuition can help, but so can watching other people and working out what they do. Watching yourself on video can also help.

David

[Jayne]

Originally posted by DavidB
Watching yourself on video can also help.
Scary biscuits!

J :sick:

[TheTramp]

I think that's what they call a video nasty!! :(

Steve

[Paul F]

Originally posted by DavidB
Watching yourself on video can also help.

David

Tried this last week :what: ...................:tears: :tears:

It really does highlight all the areas where you may be going wrong. Im going to do a weekly video diary type thing of my dancing as I have been told there are a couple of things i should iron out.

As for the nature/nurture debate. 11 months ago i wouldnt have even stepped onto a dance floor. My parents are both dancers though and i feel now that 11 months later i could consider myself to be a reasonably good dancer.
Has this had something to do with my genetic make-up, the way i have been brought up or the 5 times-per-week dancing........Im not sure.

From a 'moves' point of view I feel that how well person can learn and recall are a great contributing factor. You hear people say "oh, but my memory is bad". This is rubbish. It is a purely psychological phenomenon. By telling yourself it is bad you are causing a psychosematic response. I think this relates to biofeedback if my memory serves :wink:

At the end of the day, i believe it is down to how much work u put in but this brings the question of ceroc being a social activity or a working pastime!!!

Its hard to find the right balance.

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Paul F
From a 'moves' point of view I feel that how well person can learn and recall are a great contributing factor.
I dissagree with this point slightly - it is not the ability to learn the moves that is important, but the ability to learn how to do the moves correctly - what i mean is that I can pull a lady into a basket and she has no choice. I can guide a lady into a basket by leading her into it. Or I can step in while leading the lady gently and flow with her direction so we are both part of the move.

And I think that mental recall of moves is slightly different from physical recall; I can remember most moves {if jogged} but being able to put my body in exactly the position I remember and lead the lady is another matter.


Originally posted by stuart38
Question is if anyone like me was given advance tuition would they ever get anywhere
I would have to say that it depends on the tutor, your willingness to take on board the sugestions, and your ability to translate the learning into practice.
Personally, I would love to be able to afford the time/finances for one-on-one tuition as I think it would help my dancing. But in the mean time, I can watch others and try to work out exacly what they do that I can (and want to) insert into my dancing.

IMHO, Natural ability can only take you so far, then you need to start working - and some don't like/want to so remain at that level. Others without as much of the "dancing gene" can work up to and beyond those with the ability to start with, but it takes more work.

As another thought; what exactly is "Getting Better" at dancing?

[Lindsay]

I think a lot of it's about dancing to the music, and really feeling the music. If you have musicality, everything else will follow and you will probably be a great dancer. Things like technique can be learnt, but style sometimes has definitive room for development. In my opinion (and that's all it is so don't get nasty :() I reckon some people have it, some just don't and never will, and there's a big grey area in the middle.

...runs & hides

[Jon]

I agree with Peggy Spencer on this one as for me I have always been surrounded by all sorts of music and took music and dance lessons while growing up. Then got to high school and gave it all up due to peer presure 'its not the man thing' (something I now regret).

But after starting ceroc less than 2 years ago I find it very easy to pick up new moves, make up my own. But more importantly I know how to listen to the mood of the music. And I put this down to being conditioned at an early age.

I do think in general that there is only so much that you can be taught. The rest is up to you, you cannot simply copy someones style you have to let yours come out. One thing a teacher said to me once is just have fun and dont be afraid to let go of all your inhabitions as the people who can do this are the ones that others watch. Very hard to do this though.

The video thing is a good idea for spotting bad habbits. I've never seen myself dance but I'm waiting for the Champs video to come out so I can finally see what I look like (scary thought!).

[Chris]

Patsy Swayze devotes quite a bit to this question as I recall on the Swayzwe Dancing video. It's a good question, with no definite answer IMO but there are a few ideas that can be helpful along the way (or not). Anyone who's taxied has has probably had the experience both of seeing someone who starts from zero and leaps ahead. For teachers also, it's a nice feeling (hopefully) to see the occasional student surpass the teacher. And I can also think of times when I've met someone or taxied them for the first time and thought, 'Wow, they are a d a n c e r !!'

But I think the key is dedication. Without dedication a natural dancer won't go far, and with dedication a double-left-footed person may go on to become a very good dancer. You have to be prepared to give up the time, to try and improve and put in whatever work that that takes and so on. Dedication on a more serious level can involve what you are prepared to give up, especially in terms of time and paying for your hobby.

In terms of teachers, cash sometimes comes in cos some of them charge the earth!! But you have to find teachers that are right for you. I've had private lessons from those that charge a fortune and have a big name and learnt very little. I've also had lessons at a modest fee from (two teachers in particular I can think of) who revolutionised my dancing and taught me more in an hour or two than a year of classes and workshops. If you're dedicated you'll find the right teachers. You'll also, I believe, get to a point where you learn from yourself - you know the things you still have to practice and learn to be the dancer you want to be, and you also have a list of faults or shortcomings that you want to correct, and both these things take time over and above the mental perception of what you want to do.

Natural ability, although some people undeniably have it, when looked at a bit closer can sometimes come down to things like opportunities, doing dance or being in a dance environment before taking it up as an adult, being physically fit and in tune with one's own body, having an environment (or dance class) where you feel at home and free to develop. Having fertile ground to let your dedication grow obviously helps I think.

As Ceroc is basically a street dance (IMO) there are no set standards, so it's down to what you get out of it. If you succeed there, and can experience a one-ness with your partner, then you've succeeded anyway, cos you win in your heart - whether you win a trophy or not.


I'd rather learn from one bird how to sing than teach ten thousand stars how not to dance (ee cummings)

[Jon]

Originally posted by Chris
You'll also, I believe, get to a point where you learn from yourself - you know the things you still have to practice and learn to be the dancer you want to be, and you also have a list of faults or shortcomings that you want to correct, and both these things take time over and above the mental perception of what you want to do.

Totally agree with this Chris. I've seen the standard of dancer that I want to be in a stage performance and that memory drives me on to improve myself. I don't know if I'll get there but I will never stop trying.

Also as a taxi it is rare but I have seen people come and on their 1st night I just knew they were going to be a great dancers as they were just naturals. Unfortunately they only came afew times to Ceroc which is a shame.

[DavidY]

Originally posted by DavidB
Tuition can help, but so can watching other people and working out what they do. I can't explain how this happens, but sometimes I watch some of the really good dancers, and feel I can somehow absorb some of their (much better than mine) style subconsciously, even without my trying to work out what they do.

[Bill]

Very interesting..... and some confusion I think over what a 'good' dancer is ! and we've had that debate before ! :rolleyes:

Several replies have indicated that it might be the moves - either the type or number and doing them 'properly'. A lot of men will do a great many moves 'properly' but that doesn't make them 'good' dancers ( however that may be defined).

I agree with Lindsay on the point of feeling the music although some dancers might feel the music but still not dance very well. We can all learn by watching others and listening but I think that natural talent is vital. People who can't dance can learn over time - Scot has said before that he had two left feet before he found Ceroc and he's now a great dancer and a loverly lead ( so I'm told :wink: ).

The great dancers are probably those who can combine natural ability with traing and dedication - but the very best will be professional and less likely to be the average dancer at a Ceroc night.

I was involved in a discussion a few weeks ago about good dancers and I put the case that the two best male dancers in the 'jive' arena I'd seen were still Viktor and Nigel - by quite a distance. Having just seen a video of classes in Brighton I hold to that opinion. I think Nigel is probably one of the best leaders around and one of the most versatile male dancers on the circuit and Viktor is probably the most elegant and stylish. I don't think anyone can be as good as they are without natural ability and of course with a lot of time effort and dedication. But even without the training it would still be obvious ( IMHO) that they are really good dancers.

I've learned a great deal by attending their workshops and watching them dance but I could dance and train every day and never get anywhere near their standard. I could try to imitate their styles but I could never be them. So like most of us mere mortals I have to work on what I have and try and improve as best I can.

So talent is vital but as David says , by dancing frequently we can enjoy ourselves even more. And that, as we all keep saying is what the whole thing is about.

ps Can you tell I've had most of a bottle of wine :na: :cheers:

[Dance Demon]

Most of the guys that I know that are classed as "good dancers"are the ones who not only execute moves well, but also demonstrate a certain degree of footwork. I think I made this point in a previous thread, but if executing moves well was the main criteria for being a good dancer, then we wouldn't need music. The exceptional dancers, like Nigel & viktor also show an aptitude for "dancing" i.e. using their feet as well as executing the moves, and doing so with a fair amount of flair. Some people are born with natural rythm, and usually end up being musicians or dancers of note. I suppose it's a bit like acting where the really good ones can make a part sound really convincing where others, try as they might, never just quite convince you that they are not reading a script. The main thing though is that everyone should know their limitations, and shouldn't beat themselves up if they are not as good as someone else. Your best is your best. Do what you do and enjoy the experience.

[spindr]

Could it be that the best dancers aren't Modern Jivers?


Originally posted by Dance Demon
Most of the guys that I know that are classed as "good dancers"are the ones who not only execute moves well, but also demonstrate a certain degree of footwork. ... The exceptional dancers, like Nigel & viktor also show an aptitude for "dancing" i.e. using their feet as well as executing the moves, and doing so with a fair amount of flair.

What I mean is that the two gentlemen in question don't dance Modern Jive exclusively.

Nigel is well known for dancing blues, lindy hop and boogie woogie, etc.Similarly, Victor's well known for dancing Salsa.

Could it be that to be a good Modern Jiver you should actually branch out and dance other styles, as well?

Neil.

P.S. Who would you consider a good "exclusive" Modern Jiver / Cerocer?

[Bill]

Originally posted by spindr
Could it be that the best dancers aren't Modern Jivers?


Could it be that to be a good Modern Jiver you should actually branch out and dance other styles, as well?

Neil.



I think 'real' dancers don't do just jive because they have already danced other styles. Someone can be a very good jiver ( Cerocer) but not be terribly good - or posibly never tried any other style.

Some of the best fermale dancers I've danced with have already been to ballet/highland/contemporary dance before - and very often since they were children.

I believe Viktor did ice skating before he 'found' jive and the fact that Nigel is as good at Lindy as he is at 'blues' and jive just highlight that he is a dancer.

In other threads there has been discussion on such issues and the lack of classes for those who want to progress past Intermediate stage. There are more workshops now but I certainly feel that doing other styles can help although there is the problem that some dancers can try to hard to 'import' other styles into jive and it doesn't always work.

Salsa and jive can work to some degree - especially when the likes of Lydia and Viktor do it but some salsa dancers I've met have found it difficult not to use their feet as much when cerocing and so look as though they are over-dancing ( if you know what I mean).

IMHO good dancers will already have been dancing for years so might never go to jive classes or might find it too easy because of the lack of footwork - the very reason most of us enjoy it and keep coming back :D

However, tehre are now dozens of very good dancers up here who have never tried anything else and who get a great deal of pleasure from jive. So I suppose it really depends on just how good you want to be....or can be.:wink:

[Gadget]

Originally posted by spindr
Could it be that to be a good Modern Jiver you should actually branch out and dance other styles, as well?
I found that doing Salsa improved my body position and sense of where my partner is in relation to me.
If there had been a workshop on the same sort of thing I learned from that, then perhaps it would have sufficed, but I would not have got the practice or developed in the same way.

I think that you need to branch out into other styles to see what you can bring into MJ - unless you're satisfied that you can learn everything from workshops.

[Mary]

Joining in this thread after a few glasses of wine, so apologies for any incoherence!

I have danced with both Nigel and Viktor. Both very easy to follow as they have a very relaxed but positive lead. Not strong, just positive.
The joy of dancing with someone like Nigel is that, when he turns it on, he is electric to follow, but his skill is in the dance "dialogue". The bar of 'playing' with the music. I still get very nervous, but just have to try and relax, feel the music, and respond to the 'conversation' in the dance which has nothing to do with leading/following specific moves.

On another tack entirely, one extremely useful exercise we did this week at Joseph & Trish's workshop (another gorgeous couple to watch dance) was, only being allowed to use one move (the first move, return) to a track - in this case "Big Spender". Loads of attitude, breaks, light and shade etc. What a fantastic exercise - so much you can do with one move. Use as many beats as you like, head turns, wiggles, crouch down, use your whole body. Try it sometime.

These are the kind of things that turn it into a dance instead of a series of moves IMHO.:wink: The kind of thing that the Tramp is so good at. :cheers: among others.

Not sure if I have gone off thread as I am a bit sozzled and I have an early start tomorrow!!:sorry

Mary

[Sheepman]

Excellent thread with lots of good stuff, if only I had time to go on at length - but I don't (collective sigh of relief!)
I can also recommend the exercise that Joseph & Trish did in their musicality lesson. I've done musicality workshops with 3 or 4 different teachers, all very different, and all well worth doing.

Going back to the dance genes topic, there was a TV series about a year (or 2?) ago, presented by Deborah Bull (Royal Ballet). This was about what goes on in the body, and the head during dancing - an interesting series. (Which included such snippets as it takes 180 repetitions of a move before the body memory gets it, and that if you go learning new stuff within 6 hours of the previous stuff you've learnt, then this disrupts the processing in the brain which sets down the memory for what you've learnt.)
The bad news for those of us without any natural talent, is that the genes do definitely come into it. (Of course this was mostly about ballet, and so would include such things as the flexibilty of joints).

On the other hand, recalling a comment about Andy Fleming (of Andy and Rena fame) a few weeks ago on the forum, where he was described as a "natural dancer". I thought to myself "I'm not sure about that, I think he has done it through hard work and dedication." Having known Andy for about 11 years I've obviously seen his dance go through massive development, and as I'm sure most of you know he is an absolute star. (Confirmed once again by the excellent new Boogie Woogie cabaret spot he and Rena did last week at Beach Boogie.) It would be interesting to hear the views of these people we consider idols, to see if they consider themselves to be "naturals." I'll have to see if I can pin some of them down . . .

Greg

[Paul F]

Originally posted by Sheepman
....... and as I'm sure most of you know he is an absolute star.
Greg

Absolutely Greg.

Ive only spoken to Andy very briefly and im sure he wouldnt have a clue who i am (as many wouldnt) but i think Andy is one of the nicest people you could ever meet. A great ambassador for dancing.

[Yogi_Bear]

On another tack entirely, one extremely useful exercise we did this week at Joseph & Trish's workshop (another gorgeous couple to watch dance) was, only being allowed to use one move (the first move, return) to a track - in this case "Big Spender". Loads of attitude, breaks, light and shade etc. What a fantastic exercise - so much you can do with one move. Use as many beats as you like, head turns, wiggles, crouch down, use your whole body. Try it sometime.
==================================
Sounds like a really useful exercise! - the nearest I have seen to that is from Lindy Hop teachers like Simon and Taina at Herrang, but I expect it's been employed in many modern jive style workshops...and I have been to Lindy classes where you have to dance with only a llimited repertoire of moves - for the same reason.

And yes, this thread has a lot of interesting comment already - it's good to hear Mary's views on following Nigel. What always amazes me is that so much of what he dances seems improvised but his partners always find it easy to follow....
Yogi:wink:

[LilyB]

I have been following this thread with great interest, hoping that some of the previously mentioned "dance idols" eg. Viktor, Nigel Andy, Rena etc. would respond with their views. Unfortunately, they haven't, so we shall all have to resort to conjecture as far as their talent is concerned.

From my personal viewpoint, I subscribe to the school of thought: "Success is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration". I firmly believe that the standard of dancing I am at now is due almost entirely to hard work. Years of classes, private lessons, workshops and of course practise, practise & more practise! :sick:

As I have been dancing since the age of 6, it is sometimes difficult to separate hard work from natural ability. But I am certain that had I not had all those years of training (in various dance styles), I would not be dancing the way I do now. However, I also accept that for some people, no amount of training or practise will get them beyond the "intermediate" level. Therefore there has to be some element of natural ability in order to succeed at the very top level.

That said, I'm sure DavidB will say that as an ex-rugby player, he has no natural ability at all for dancing and that all our successes (in dance competitions) has been due to sheer hard work. Well ........ he's right! :sad: :sick: :tears: Does show you, though, what can be achieved if you are prepared to work for it. As David said in his post earlier, 80% of the top dancers got there through natural ability; the other 20% through hard work. David & I fall into the latter 20% (that is, if we qualify for 'top dancer' status :wink: ).

At the end of the day, isn't Ceroc about having fun? So success should be defined by the amount of fun we have on the dance floor rather than on trying to look like a dance god, me thinks.

LilyB

[DavidB]

Originally posted by LilyB
I'm sure DavidB will say that as an ex-rugby player, he has no natural ability at all for dancing I never had any natural ability for rugby either!

[Bill]

Originally posted by DavidB
I never had any natural ability for rugby either! Modesty again !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I actually captained the school rugby team but had no idea of the rules :eek: . I was quite fast and as a winger I got to keep out of trouble - well I wasn't going into those srums with all those brutes !!

We used to get thrashed on a regular basis :sick:

[Chicklet]

Originally posted by Bill
We used to get thrashed on a regular basis :sick: :eek: :eek: yeah but what about on the pitch???:devil:

[Bill]

Originally posted by LilyB
(that is, if we qualify for 'top dancer' status :wink: ).

At the end of the day, isn't Ceroc about having fun? So success should be defined by the amount of fun we have on the dance floor rather than on trying to look like a dance god, me thinks.No doubt that you are considered amongst the best couples around.......and rightly so :wink:

And agreed. Ceroc is about fun and that's why it's been so successful. Seeing the likes of you and David, N&N, V& L has and will continue to inspire less experienced dancers and though the vast majority of us won't ever reach the same level it does at least encourage us to continue.

All the best for Australia.

[Rachel]

Originally posted by Bill
No doubt that you are considered amongst the best couples around.......and rightly so :wink:

And agreed. Ceroc is about fun and that's why it's been so successful. Seeing the likes of you and David, N&N, V& L has and will continue to inspire less experienced dancers and though the vast majority of us won't ever reach the same level it does at least encourage us to continue.

All the best for Australia. Bill's just said exactly what I was thinking. Was hoping you'd post to this thread, Lily!
Rachel

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by LilyB
From my personal viewpoint, I subscribe to the school of thought: "Success is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration". That's why I hadn't specifically mentioned your name in my previous post, 'cos I knew you'd say that! :wink:


Originally posted by LilyB
At the end of the day, isn't Ceroc about having fun? So success should be defined by the amount of fun we have on the dance floor Thank you Lily, on that basis, if there's anyone out there more "successful" than me I want to know how!! I just hope that some of that rubs off on my partners!

Greg

[Heather]

:D :D Love your new avatar Paul, Dorothy's 'Ruby slippers', I assume ? Better warn you though, Bill has a penchant for red high heels!!!!:rofl:
:kiss: :hug:
Heather.

[Paul F]

Originally posted by Heather
:D :D Love your new avatar Paul, Dorothy's 'Ruby slippers', I assume ? Better warn you though, Bill has a penchant for red high heels!!!!:rofl:
:kiss: :hug:
Heather.

Your absolutely right Heather - well about the ruby slippers , i cant comment on Bills penchant :grin:
Im working on a different avata to make it, hopefully, slightly more obvious. Lord knows what some may think with my high heeled avatar :wink:

It all comes as a result of pressure from the toilet roll laden , shrunken headed one.
Ever since i bought some - lets say, rather bright dance trainers she calls me Wiz now from the wizard of Oz.

I shall exact my revenge but im just biding my time at the moment :devil: :devil: :grin:

[Paul F]

................Or maybe i was subconsciously trying to make myself more appealing to Franck so he would recind my probation term :tears: :tears: :tears: :grin:

[Bill]

Originally posted by Heather
:D :D Love your new avatar Paul, Dorothy's 'Ruby slippers', I assume ? Better warn you though, Bill has a penchant for red high heels!!!!:rofl:
:kiss: :hug:
Heather.

And I haven't worn them for ages :sick: ..................better look them out..............you never know when they might be useful :D