Bare Minimum Moves.

[Beowulf]

Hey all.

Long time no visit. Was just looking over my collection of known moves. "Officially" I know 11 That is, 11 moves I have been taught and remember (even if I can't remember what they're all called). I have one or two "unofficially" learnt moves (picked up by watching the intermediate classes or watching others on the dance floor.

I was just wondering to dance Ceroc you don't need to know ALL the moves? What would be the bare minimum set of moves to comfortably dance with?

My "repertoir" currently consists of

manspin (had to be there.. that's my safety net!)
Arm Jive & AJ Push Spin
Yoyo & YY Push Spin
Basket
Octopus
Step across
Side to side Shoulder
Comb
The other move we did in the beginners section on Tuesday in Culter mills (not previously mentioned)

I was also watching the Arm jive spinny thing and baskety thing (body curl?) in the intermediate section. (I was the sad looking guy in the bright shirt sitting out for most of the night. Long story but I felt "squiffy")

Is there any other "must have" moves? should be able to dance ok with that lot!? (famous last words.. I'm monumentally bad at dancing!)

comments?

[TheTramp]

There's no such thing as a bare minimum.

If you talk to the ladies, they'll tell you that they'd prefer to dance with a guy who does 6 moves well, than 50 moves badly.

Your repertoire of moves will build up surprisingly quickly, the more classes that you do. It won't be long before your list will be 20, then 50, then 100 moves big. Soon you'll be forgetting more moves than you use commonly. Even the good ones...... until someone does one of them next to you on the dance floor!! :D

Steve

[DavidB]

In the US, some West Coast Swing teachers have a list of 22 'foundation' moves (http://www.swingworld.com/articles/west_coast_swing_list.htm). The interesting thing is not the moves themselves, but the reasons why they are taught. After learning these moves, you should have a good enough grounding in how to do WCS to be able to do any move.

So what would be a similar set of moves in Modern Jive? The dance is a lot simpler, so the list is probably going to be shorter.

- You would have to have some at the beginning to get people used to the timing, such as Arm Jive.
- Then something to introduce leading & following, and turning - probably a yoyo.
- You might want to show moves that can be led with different hand holds (left to right, right to right, both hands, and both hands crossed) and ways of changing hands.
- You might also want to introduce some of the common positions, such as closed position, sway, basket, etc
- Then maybe turns to the left and right, and free spins to the left and the right
- And finally some walking steps, such as swivel walks.

I don't know the names of enough moves to illustrate each idea. But I'd be surprised if it took more than 20 moves to form a foundation for Modern Jive. I'd be surprised if Ceroc or Leroc didn't already have a list like this.

Anything after that is just icing on the cake.

David

[Gadget]

I don't think anyone knows ALL the moves and I don't think anyone can.
I agree with tramp that most lady's would rather be led six moves well than fifteen million badly, but never mind the ladies; I get bored trying to lead newbies on just the four moves they know from the class!

Two things that will make it seem less boring;

First, develop a couple of variations on the same move - for example in an arm-jive, instead of just returning and letting go of the right hand, keep hold and continue the lady turning; you are now in another move. Or start as another 'jive' motion, but raise the left hand and turn the lady into a basket at your side.
Only do the variations When you get 'stuck' in one of these moves, or begin to think "damn - I'm in another arm-jive!"
Another example I use {more than I should :rolleyes:} is 'duck' exit from an octopus; as you wrap yourself in, lift both arms and duck through the hole backwards, the lady then does a double handed turn to face.

Second, try to do the same move a different way; example - on a man spin, take more time and remain rooted while leading the lady all the way round you. Or try to keep the lady rooted while you turn into her. You need to do these over more counts than a normal man spin.

BTW the move was a "Front Basket Body Roll" {well that's what I called it :)} - not recommended to attempt on any unsuspecting beginner. Or even a suspecting beginner :wink:
I can't remember the beginners moves except for the Step Accross and Arm Jive :sorry:

[Gus]

Originally posted by Beowulf1970
Is there any other "must have" moves? should be able to dance ok with that lot!? (

As Tramp says, dont worry .... moves will naturally attach themselevs to you the more you go dancing. Re LEARNING them ... thats never really worked for me. During my time as a Ceroc instuctor I was taught to teach the 450+ official moves ... I've probably learnt about another 100 or so moves from the various workshops I done and probably developed about 40+ myself for various workshops and lessons ....... and how many do I use on an average night ... probably no more than 25 to 30 ..... and if you asked my to remember them I could only probably remember about 20 or so! After a while you body remembers the moves ... and you can just get on with enjoying the dance ... don't ask me how it happens, just a question of dancefloor hours clocked up I guess.:nice:

[TheTramp]

Dang. Gus. You're going to have to stop doing that.

Agreeing with me.

It's bad for my heart!! :D

Steve

[Jon]

Dont worry about knowing lots of moves your repitore will build up very quickly.

You already have the basket and the comb I do these moves all the time as there are so many variations you can do just try to think not how you have been taught the move but what is the music saying to you and just go with it. In other words do what feels natural dont worry about perfecting moves too much but play with them, make them slower, take bits out, add bits in from other moves, it's all about cutting & pasting bits of moves together really which is why there are 500 or so ceroc moves. And a little tip if it all goes wrong just smile/laugh and the lady will think she messed up your move :wink: :sorry

[spindr]

Well, I think that one of the most important beginner "moves" in Modern Jive is a simple "bounce together and apart" --- it matches in with the general feel of the "away, together, away" feel of "basic" Modern Jive. More importantly it helps you get the feeling of tension and compression in the handholds well with your partner.

It also helps give you some more thinking time and it can help transition circling moves into linear moves, and it makes a useful way to rescue some situations and get back on track.

You can also dress it up as "pat-a-cake" variations, or start to turn it into John's move, or WCS/Lindy sugar-pushes, etc., etc.

I wouldn't recommend using it for a whole dance, but it often comes in handy once in a while.

Neil.

[Beowulf]

Some good replies above

(even got an email from gadget suggestiing I write a computer program to automatically generate dance routines from a list of moves.. If I could do that, I'd just wire it into my shoes and I'd never worry again! <g>)

Back on topic.

What I'm trying to get at is there must be some recommended number of moves containing a selection of LH , RH and transition moves to allow a good routine to be constructed.

My Main problem is I know (perhaps not very well) the list of moves above. I'm ok in the beginners section as I've memorise the "routine" parrot fashion. But when it comes to freestyle and I try and link in different moves I keep getting stuffed. My brain doesn't seem to process the moves fast enough, do I want ot go from a LH to another LH ? do I want to switch? Oops too late I've missed my chance. And because I'm thinking so much about the moves I'm going to do next, I mess up the moves I'm doing now, which makes me feel awkward and ungainly and my confidence flies out the dance hall faster than a fleeing golden snitch!

I cna't make up a routine before hand as I don't know what music I'll be dancing to! Unless I only dance to certain tracks? <g>

suggestions?

Thanks Pete

(off topic.. just noticed I've lost my avatar.. have to fix that for next post!)

[Lorna]

Originally posted by Beowulf1970

My Main problem is I know (perhaps not very well) the list of moves above. I'm ok in the beginners section as I've memorise the "routine" parrot fashion. But when it comes to freestyle and I try and link in different moves I keep getting stuffed. My brain doesn't seem to process the moves fast enough, do I want ot go from a LH to another LH ? do I want to switch? Oops too late I've missed my chance. And because I'm thinking so much about the moves I'm going to do next, I mess up the moves I'm doing now, which makes me feel awkward and ungainly and my confidence flies out the dance hall faster than a fleeing golden snitch!

suggestions?Hello,

my suggestion to you would be that you attend my next beginners workshop. (28th Sept)

The morning is dedicated to learning about a third of all the beginner's moves, including basic lead and follow techniques. It is very different from the usual class situation, less couples for a start and you get to stop me at any time to ask questions.

The afternoon session is designed to help improve men's freestyling and to develop a better 'lead' for the men and 'follow' for the ladies. This is achieved through various exercises that we do.

It is well worth getting yourself booked onto the next workshop as it will address most of the problems that you have mentioned.

Still trying to work out who you are, maybe you can introduce yourself to me on Tuesday! :nice: And even have a dance if we haven't already. :confused:

Lotsa love Lorna x-x

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Beowulf1970
My Main problem is I know (perhaps not very well) the list of moves above. I'm ok in the beginners section as I've memorise the "routine" parrot fashion. But when it comes to freestyle and I try and link in different moves I keep getting stuffed. My brain doesn't seem to process the moves fast enough, do I want ot go from a LH to another LH ? do I want to switch? Oops too late I've missed my chance. And because I'm thinking so much about the moves I'm going to do next, I mess up the moves I'm doing now, which makes me feel awkward and ungainly and my confidence flies out the dance hall faster than a fleeing golden snitch! 17 years ago. I was in exactly the same position. I'd been going for classes for a couple of months. They were at Pineapple Studios, and there was no freestyle afterwards. I could do the intermediate class, but couldn't do freestyle.

Then I went to a dance at the Porchester Halls. I had a couple of dances, and was just doing the routine from the last class...
... and then everything just clicked. It didn't matter what move I'd just done, or what I wanted to do next. If I had the wrong hand, I'd just do something else (usually a return), and not worry about it. It remains one of the best dances I ever had.

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Lorna
Still trying to work out who you are...
He was on your last workshop; looks a bit like me. (or more accuratly I look a bit like him ;))

Originally posted by Beowulf1970
What I'm trying to get at is there must be some recommended number of moves containing a selection of LH , RH and transition moves to allow a good routine to be constructed.
Number of moves... hmmmm.... next time you're watching, count the number of different moves; I reacon that a single dance would contain about 20 moves, but about five or six would be repeated two or three times, so that's a core of say 6 moves which takes up about 15 of the moves in the song, which leaves about 5 "different" moves to be inserted.
So if you know six moves well enough that you can slip in/out of them, then you only need to concentrate on how to get into your five 'special' moves in the dance.

{Personally I use man-spin, octopus, step-across, basket and either first move, shoulder slide, yo-yo or cattapult (depending on partner/song) as my core moves, then flail about for the other five moves and see what happens. :what: Usually works.:waycool:}

[Beowulf]

Originally posted by Lorna
Still trying to work out who you are, maybe you can introduce yourself to me on Tuesday! :nice: And even have a dance if we haven't already. :confused:

I'm the shy guy who came to your beginners workshop last weekend .. the one who when asked why I was there replied "I'm only here to keep my girlfriend happy" :wink:

I found the last workshop very useful which is why I came back to the Tueday night classes after a long absence. But when in a dance situation during freestyle. I don't have time to plan a move in advance as we were doing in the workshop.. everythings spur of the moment and the only thing I can think of is Manspin , manspin, manspin.... ad Nauseum ! :sick:

Will look forward to a dance next time... hope your toes are insured! :blush:

[Chicklet]

Originally posted by DavidB
17 years ago. I was in exactly the same position.

I knew you must have been dancing since you were about 10:D

[Jon]

Originally posted by Beowulf1970
the only thing I can think of is Manspin , manspin, manspin.... ad Nauseum ! :sick:

How about the slow manspin. Very nice move and simple. Instead of turning to face the lady changing places instead let her walk round you for afew beats. Gives you some thinking time too.

Prehaps the beginner plus workshop is something to consider as it builds on the beginner moves

[Emma]

Originally posted by Beowulf1970
Manspin , manspin, manspin.... Hey, there's nothing wrong with the manspin..I've been dancing as a lead more and more recently and I find it incredibly useful...about every other move... :wink: (In strict rotation with the catapault, the arm jive and the first move, usually) Every now and again I have a moment of *extreme* inspiration and put in a step-across :nice:.

I had loads of trouble at first freestyling (er, reading the above maybe I still do...) and found that going out with my girlfriend dancers and drinking rather too much was a definite confidence-boosting bonus. Whether they enjoyed it or not is debatable! :what:. Seriously though once I stopped worrying so much about whether or not I was getting it right or what I was going to do next I found that moves came far more easily and I could freestyle with more confidence.

[Emma]

Originally posted by Jon
And a little tip if it all goes wrong just smile/laugh and the lady will think she messed up your move :wink: :sorry Boy oh boy Jon, can't believe I missed this before! It's *officially* the man's fault and from now on babes, it's *always* gonna be yours! :devil:

...even if I'm dancing with someone else! :waycool:

[Jon]

Whats why I'm always smiling while dancing. I'm trying to cover up all my mistakes :grin:

[Alfie]

Hi all,
I think I may have said this elsewhere before. When I was a baby dancer I was told by an extremely super lady, after I asked her if she was bored because of my limited number of moves, that she was happy to dance with me as I danced with style and flair.
I only class myself as average after four and a half years of dancing.
I counted my moves last night and I appear to have a stock set of about twenty moves most of which are beginners or variations of beginner moves with, a couple of crowd pleasers that I have learnt on a couple of workshops.
I try and make a dance as fun for my partener as it is for me without taking it tooo seriously!!!

[michael]

Hi there Beowulf Dont know how long you have been dancing for but you seem to be in a similiar position as myself. I am approaching the 3 months landmark so to speak and i am just beginning to look now at some moves other than the usual beginner ones.

David B is spot on on his first reply and i have taken a mental note so hopefully the comments will stay there. Since we are starting off it is massively important for experts like David B to make careful comments that help enormously for us to see where we are going and how.

I suppose we all have different ways of learning and picking up moves etc. i know one chap who just seems to pick up the theory instantly while others like myself need time to go over it sufficiently to have it burnt into our routine.

I bet there must be a small number of joining moves that once learnt along with the beginner moves will help with many of the other moves that we all want to learn.

A workshop on foundation joining moves if such a thing existed would be great.

It must be hard for teachers to keep everyone happy as we are all in different stages of learning. If i were a teacher i would go through three different set routines and ask the class which one they wanted to learn that week, that way we might avoid the wasted weeks when we hate the moves just shown. I would repeat the moves a couple of weeks later and maybe just add one wee extra one to spice it up for those with good memories?
if that happened i would have an extra couple of moves to add to my own limited routine.

As things stand for now i reckon the best way to add moves is probably just to keep going dancing as often as possible and eventually we will learn enough moves to keep us happy....until we get bored with them and off we go again........

This past week or so i have started to enjoy my wee simple moves that i do and i just try to do them a little bit better and in tune with the music. Adding a few extra over this next few weeks will greatly enhance my enjoyment and probably others (Jesus here we go again) but since the Big Perth Weekend i am startiing to realise how difficult it is to THINK ABOUT hitting a break never mind doing it. Perhaps those wee beginner moves will quickly become second nature to us and we do them without even thinking about it. Then and probably only then can we start to think about listening to the music instead of the next damn move. Hopefully the next stage will be to recognise where and when the breaks occur and a stage further again preparing something to do in the break??? Me's quite happy now with a few wee easy sways and seducers to practice for the breaks and the above tasks to look forward to.

Worry not fellow dancer (it never solved anything anyway did it) just enjoy yourself and do go to David and Lily's workshop if they have another on musical interpretation. Although it is hugely advanced it also (has for me) shows you the paths ahead.

I remember been given a sheet of paper with printed moves and what appeared to be extremely difficult things to co-ordinate between hand foot and eyes. I was asked if i thought i could do such things and was quick to reply "you must be joking" who the hell does all that? YOU DO all the time you are driving!!!

[jiveoholic]

Firstly - I agree with the fact that ladies would rather have 8 moves well performed than 58 poorly executed. However...you will soon find that you will get bored yourself and as you go along to jive evenings you will naturally pick up moves as you need them.

Secondly - trying to answer your initial question - There are an infinite number of moves, if you consider all variations and combinations. HOWEVER...if you consider all those "features" in moves that are truly different (eg butterfly, hand clicks, teapots etc) and discount combinations of moves (eg armjive nelson basket), then my latest estimate is that there are hardly more than 100, if that.

I have listed these diagramatically - see www.jiveoholic.org.uk/jivemap.asp

If you hover over each name, it gives an idea of what it is about, if you click, you get a full description.

This is just in draft at the moment. Any contributions/corrections welcome. I like to think that this provides a "good diet"!

[michael]

Well done and thank you Jiveoholic for producing such a great wee map reference. :waycool: I shall print it out and take some spare with me to give to others when going to classes. :grin:

I printed out some 300 dance moves from a web site but they are not much use to me unless i see the actual moves. Your map and the point click and explain features might just possibly help in understanding just what is being explained in the moves database.

Please let us all know when you have finished the map as it is already impressive in Draft.

PS Surely this is a must post in the beginner section as it would particularly help enormously to those just starting:nice:

[jiveoholic]

Originally posted by michael

Please let us all know when you have finished the map as it is already impressive in Draft.

Glad you like it....its the first positive responce I have had!..normally I just get some pulled faces thinking that I am turning a fun activity into something a scientist would use at work(!).

Its in draft form until I draw some teapots and trains and butterflies and octopuses (or is that octopii!) - hopefully this week. I shall then offer a pdf download and maybe email a friend etc as it only just fits on A4 and browsers are not very clever about not printing over two pages!

[Gadget]

I like the concept - inspiring. I thought the execution is a bit fuzzy though; I found it quite hard to identify the arrow's targets and the 'intimate' moves were a bit scarce; perhaps the closer moves should go towards the inside, and the arms-length moves further out?
Dunno - it's your map. (and I have no idea about half of the moves... I'll need to look up your site :wink: )

BTW Thinking again on what Michael was saying about getting from one basic move to another, I can only think on six ways:
[list=1] Return - keeps same hand, but can be used in conjunction with a hand swap or collect/release
Hand Swap - simply transferring the lady's hand from one to another
Release/Collect - droping one hand from a two hand hold, or collecting a hand into one.
Slide - placing the lady's hand(s) on point A of your body and collecting it again at point B
Free Spin - sending the lady into a spin.
Wrap/Unwrap - taking the lady to your side, or yourself to your lady's side[/list=1]
With these "joining moves", you should be able to connect any one move to another. :waycool:

[jiveoholic]

Originally posted by Gadget
I like the concept - inspiring. I thought the execution is a bit fuzzy though; I found it quite hard to identify the arrow's targets and the 'intimate' moves were a bit scarce; perhaps the closer moves should go towards the inside, and the arms-length moves further out?
Dunno - it's your map. (and I have no idea about half of the moves... I'll need to look up your site :wink: )


Good point about identifying the hyperlink areas. I know how to do it, but it involves hand writing out javascript for each hyperlink, where as the links are easy to add with drag'n'draw tools. Maybe I will find a way....

I did put intimate moves at the centre (where they belong in each man's mind!). Trouble is that the diagram was constructed to minimise crossed links. Also, what is in the heart is not so much 'moves' as 'positions'. If anyone knows any sexy move in a different bodily contortion which is commonplace, then I will add it.

I think you probably know most of the moves but not by the rather generic names I have used. Suggestiong for better naming welcome.

Thanks for the comments.

[Jon]

Originally posted by Gadget
Slide - placing the lady's hand(s) on point A of your body and collecting it again at point B

Can you define where point A is? :wink: :devil: :sorry

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Jon
Can you define where point A is? :wink: :devil: :sorry
Depends on where the music takes you... :wink: :devil: :innocent:

[Beowulf]

I have listed these diagramatically

Can I have a "You are here" Spot?? Or will I aks directions from First move to Butterfly only to be told "You can't get there from here" ?? :wink:

Site Looks good though.

[jiveoholic]

Originally posted by Beowulf1970
Can I have a "You are here" Spot?? Or will I aks directions from First move to Butterfly only to be told "You can't get there from here" ?? :wink:

Site Looks good though.

Actually, you could be anywhere! Two simple uses might be:

a) how do I get to that damn butterfly?...no I don't suggest you take a copy with you to the dance floor - you can work it out when you get home!

b) What more can I do when I keep stumbling into that first move again?

So the main idea is to start where you will around the outside (your choice!). I did originally have a ring of beginner moves at the centre, but I found that all the lines kept crossing the middle.

[Beowulf]

Originally posted by jiveoholic
how do I get to that damn butterfly?...no I don't suggest you take a copy with you to the dance floor

oh! Ok, I'll delete it off my Palm then! <g> :sorry Knowing me i'd hold the map upside down and end up doing an accordian instead of a butterfly!

[Dreadful Scathe]

i looked at the core concepts diagram ... my head exploded :)

[Emma]

Cool map!

Being a girl naturally I appreciate the pretty colours and the nice pictures :what:

..and as an aspiring lead..if I were an obsessive male-type I might spend several hours memorising it. But I'm not. See above :grin:

[michael]

Picking up on comments on a particular move being mentioned elswhere but called something different. Surely we should have an official list of moves by Ceroc HQ. Free and downloadable to all Cerocers.

I personally dont think it would deprive Ceroc of any lost business by having the moves in a database. It might avoid some confusion by seeing different names for the same move elswhere?

Just a thought really??:)

[Gadget]

Originally posted by michael
Picking up on comments on a particular move being mentioned elswhere but called something different. Surely we should have an official list of moves by Ceroc HQ. Free and downloadable to all Cerocers.
Oooh...:what: I'm sure that there was a discussion eariler about copyright and how 'branding' a move as a Ceroc move would make it naughty to teach the same move under the same name.
That, and the paranoia aspect that non-Ceroc teachers may steal the moves and teach Ceroc outwith the collective.

Anyway, do you really want moves with names like "Firstmove-backhander-into-reverse-yoyo-with-ladyspin" ?? :sick:
{BTW I just made that up - don't blame me if you try it and get stuck in a knot :wink:}

[Beowulf]

Surely we should have an official list of moves by Ceroc HQ?

Erm..perhaps I imagined this.. but I thought there was? At least ,when I typed "CEROC BEGINNERS MOVES" into Google I found a ceroc site that mentioned a 22 move beginners check list that you get when you join up .. I take it this has stopped now??

(off topic.. listening to a CD as I type this and I've noticed that the two kissing smilies to the left are kissing in time to the music)

[Gus]

Originally posted by Beowulf1970
Erm..perhaps I imagined this.. but I thought there was? At least ,when I typed "CEROC BEGINNERS MOVES" into Google I found a ceroc site that mentioned a 22 move beginners check list that you get when you join up .. I take it this has stopped now??
Seem to remember Ceroc Central giving out a monitoring card of the Beginners moves ... and I used something similar when I first started Ceroc Nanwtich. Blitz have something similar as part of their new members pack (not that they would use the Ceroc names for moves of course :wink:)

[Paul F]

Originally posted by Gus
Seem to remember Ceroc Central giving out a monitoring card of the Beginners moves ...

I know CerocLondon now give out 12 + laminated and binded quick reference cards each one depicting a beginner move. The cards are fully illustrated and, to be honest, look very professional.

[michael]

I think it takes about eight weeks to start to see the same beginner moves re-appearing (if not someone will correct me for sure). Since i started going more often the moves re-appear more often, so if any beginner really wants to learn quicker (and can afford to) then going to as many classes each week as possible should ensure their memory will be jogged often enough to remember the moves. Wish i had went more often!!

How often do we hear female dancers saying "that particular move" is popular!!! Suggests to me that most dancers have quite similiar moves in their dance routine? Surely not? Poll would see if it is true perhaps.

Poor wee females are stuck then to the moves the male happens to choose. perhaps the females should get together and come up with a Er.....short list of selected moves that THEY WANT us guys to learn!!!! Have i opened up a can of ...........Just thought it would be nice to give them a dance they might enjoy more, provided one can dance well enough to lead them properly etc. Logging off now (must practice) :rofl: :rofl:

[Yogi_Bear]

An interesting thread - though I have skipped the majority of it I haven't come across any mention of the 'First Move' as a basic modern jive or Ceroc essential. This has a lot going for it. It's one of the core beginners moves. It has lots of variations and generally they are very leadable. It's versatile and recognisable enough to allow you to dance with partners from a wide range of jive and swing styles. It's got enough beats to give you time to think what to do next. And not least, it's amomg the potentially most stylish of the beginners' modern jive moves. Come to think of it, anyone with enough experience could probably dance to a whole track using just this one move without boring either himself or his partner......!

I don't think beginners should worry unduly about right and left hand holds. Just stick to moves with left to right holds to begin with in freestyle. Learn some easy ways to change to right to right and back. If you learn Lindy Hop just about all the basic patterns are with left to righ holds.

And yes, it's surely all about not how many moves you know but style and how you respond to the music and your partner that counts.

Yogi
---------
'smarter than the avaerge bear....':)

[bigdjiver]

Originally posted by michael

Poor wee females are stuck then to the moves the male happens to choose. perhaps the females should get together and come up with a Er.....short list of selected moves that THEY WANT us guys to learn!!!! Have i opened up a can of ...........Just thought it would be nice to give them a dance they might enjoy more, provided one can dance well enough to lead them properly etc.

I have tried asking my partners, and they usually request moves involving footwork, a weakness of mine. Tomorrow I plan to try the Columbian and Butterfly steps. It will not be a pretty sight. It might earn someone with a video camera a bit of money.

I have also tried watching what moves women do when leading in the hope that they lead what they would like to follow. I have actually expanded my move set as a result.

[spindr]

I think that you have it the wrong way round --- it's the guys who get bored with their own moves :)

If I know 20 moves that's all that I end up dancing all night, even if I dance with 100 different ladies. If a lady dances with 100 different guys she gets the chance to dance (100 * 20) moves :) Plus, it's quite difficult to surprise yourself with a choice of move (although not impossible if your memory starts playing tricks).

I think the popularity thing is just that if you teach 100 guys a lesson -- probably half of them will try some of those moves later in freestyle -- hence the sudden rise in popularity, etc.

So, what's the popular move this week that's come back from Beach Boogie ladies?

Neil.

[michael]

Imagine the ladies got to lead for the week to show off their new moves. Me thinks i would be following right out the door and all that spinning too:sick:

I wonder how many of us guys would go dancing if we were to be led round the dance floor by the female. I wonder how many arguments we would have too. "Your B....Y fault dear its your leading. It would expose most of us for how bad we dance (probably).

Any female who is willing to show me a new move is welcome to try at any time (hint hint). We have the option to learn it or bin it thereafter.... see its great being a guy:D

[DavidB]

Originally posted by spindr
it's the guys who get bored with their own movesI agree. I might do moves that not many other people do (at least until I taught a few in Perth!), but I do them all the time. The only move I've never got bored of is the yoyo :what:

I really enjoy it when a lady doesn't do what I expect, because I have to think of something different. But if the lady feels she hasn't done what I've led, she says sorry!

At times like this, I just do something I'll never be any good at - golf!!

(And I know it's late. But I don't have to go to work tomorrow, and it is the first day of the American Football season, so I'm staying up until 5:00 :cheers: )

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Yogi_Bear
An interesting thread - though I have skipped the majority of it I haven't come across any mention of the 'First Move' as a basic modern jive or Ceroc essential.
The "first move" entrance and exit are the basis for almost all couple dances; a "Salsa" hold, a "Ballroom" hold etc. so there are millions of variations from this move - from your standard push-spin's and turns to walks, dips, seducers,...
It's not difficult to dance a whole song using variations of it. :cool:

On a seperate note, stealing inspiration from Jiveoholic's map (mentioned earlier on this thread) I have produced a similar one, {that the kind man is hosting on his site} here. (http://www.jiveoholic.org.uk/alt_jivemap/dance_map.asp)
Where in his map the arrows are linking moves to get from one move to another, I have seperated the linking moves from the actual moves themselves to give (what I hope) is a fairly clear route map between all of all the basic moves I can think on.

Let me know what you think.


{BTW David B:I really enjoy it when a lady doesn't do what I expect, because I have to think of something different. But if the lady feels she hasn't done what I've led, she says sorry!
I know exactly where you're coming from :sick: }

[Yogi_Bear]

Sometimes I wonder whether it's necessary to learn anything other than the First Move and some of its variations. Add some breaks and hesitations and you could dance to almost anything. Learn some footwork to go with it and......you could soon be doing something like a Lindy Turn.

Yogi
:wink: :cheers:

[Yogi_Bear]

IMHO the only three Ceroc beginners moves you need to know are the first move, the basket and the sway (and a way to link the sway to the lef-righ hold moves).
What do you think? :cheers:

[Graham]

Originally posted by Yogi_Bear
IMHO the only three Ceroc beginners moves you need to know are the first move, the basket and the sway (and a way to link the sway to the lef-righ hold moves).
What do you think? :cheers: Actually you'll also need a way of linking the basket/first move to your sway, as the standard form of both finishes L/R. Sticking to beginner moves, you could do a first move push spin instead. You could also just do a hand swap on a turn/return, but I've always thought this looks as if you've made a mistake, and hardly ever do it in freestyle. (Perhaps that's just because that's when I use it of course!)

[Beowulf]

Wow.. that really is the bare minimum.. or should I say the Yogi Bear Minimum :wink:

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Graham
You could also just do a hand swap on a turn/return, but I've always thought this looks as if you've made a mistake, and hardly ever do it in freestyle. I do this all the time. I'll even change my hand at the start of a move - eg starting a yoyo with my left hand, and changing to my right when the lady steps in.

The only time you get problems doing this is when the lady won't let go of your hand! And it only looks noticable to anyone else when you make your leads so big that they can see them on the other side of the floor. Keep your leads small, and people will watch the dancing instead of the hands.

David

[xSalsa_Angelx]

Originally posted by Yogi_Bear
IMHO the only three Ceroc beginners moves you need to know are the first move, the basket and the sway (and a way to link the sway to the lef-righ hold moves).
What do you think? :cheers:


Hmmmm typical carrot cruncher ..... my boyfriend only uses these moves to, rather boring i think, oh he's a carrot cruncher too>!!

The problem is getting him to step back when i step back, and he tends to rush his moves a bit quickly.

Ive found that i like footwork and he does not give me enough time do do this.

basket, sway ... it is too much of a begginner move and it looks too begginer on the dance floor, am not an expert but i do prefer some of the varied moves such as basket, comb, looks much better. :D

[Graham]

Originally posted by DavidB
And it only looks noticable to anyone else when you make your leads so big that they can see them on the other side of the floor. Keep your leads small, and people will watch the dancing instead of the hands. Interesting point: I do spend time watching good dancers, such as yourself, and I do notice when you do things like that, because I'm watching very closely. But other times my attention has been drawn to it when I was observing more casually, and now I think about it this probably was down to the lead being large.

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Yogi_Bear
IMHO the only three Ceroc beginners moves you need to know are the first move, the basket and the sway (and a way to link the sway to the lef-righ hold moves).
What do you think? :cheers:
Thinking on it even more, I don't think you actually need to know any moves themselves - you only need to know the connecting moves...
how to collect and release a lady's hand (& swap hands)
how to turn a lady with either hand
how to send a lady into a spin
how to collect a lady to your side
... a basket starts by collecting a hand, then turns the lady and collects her to your side.
... a first move starts by collecting the lady to your side with the left hand.
... a sway starts by collecting the lady to your side with the right hand.

Everything else from there can be broken into one of the above "moves", so if you can lead all of the above then it's only timing, positioning, finding the music, watching for other dancers and personal hygene you need to worry about. :what: {:D}

[bigdjiver]

I would tackle the bare minimum moves question from the view of enabling the leader to dance with a follower that has never done it before.

Hand jive, basket and basket walk around. All two handed moves with lots of control. Man spin, lady spin, and side to side, which can all be led with minimum knowledge from the follower, although the side to side can involve the follower standing there bemused as the leader moves from side to side.

The basket walk-around gives the opportunity to hide the gaps in dance knowledge with a bit of social chat.

[Jon]

Don't foget the comb, another great move for a bit of social chatting

[bigdjiver]

Originally posted by Jon
Don't foget the comb, another great move for a bit of social chatting

I agree on the social chat aspect, but I was trying to limit the number of moves, and avoid educated ones. The natural reaction of most beginners is to step back if they have not been taught not to. (Well, it is with me :-< )

Simon Selmon has called moves that both partners have to know 'educated' moves.

[Jon]

Ah well thats what the mans spare hand is for. And if she still steps back then why not step forward so the man's following for 1 beat, prehaps add on a little 90 degree twist and we are no longer doing educated moves but improvising.

Humm, not sure if that is a ceroc move but sounded nice as I wrote it will try it out tonight. Thanks Bigjiver your an inspiration.

[Yogi_Bear]

Well, at least no-one seems to have suggested the catapault as a bare minimum move. As you spend most of the move facing away from your partner I don't think it exactly promotes communication.

Yogi:)

[bigdjiver]

Originally posted by Yogi_Bear
Well, at least no-one seems to have suggested the catapault as a bare minimum move. As you spend most of the move facing away from your partner I don't think it exactly promotes communication.

Yogi:)

I minimise the behind my back moves on principle for this reason. The catapult would be high on the list for the next stage.
My first selection were all on the basis of the follower being firmly led, and not requiring a lesson. The catapult, if led with the ladies right hand firmly clasped usually leads to a moment where they do not know what to do. Eventually they take the left hand and the move gets completed. To my mind this gives them the confidence that they can work it out, and do a move that seems more complex, has a WOW! factor.

[Boomer]

I’m just starting to realise that having a stock of moves is not as important as having a way of connecting the moves together. A few moves, fairly well connected, does seem to go a long way. This works to such an extent that even ‘I’ :what: had 2 wimmin look surprised when I admitted that I ‘wasn’t as confident as I looked’ on the dance-floor, but was in fact bricking it. To clarify, THEY thought I looked confident, not me. I normally find the following sequence to be very workable: “may I?” – “Of course” – “thank you, I’ll have a Bud please”- gulp-gulp “May I be so bold as to ask again?” – “of course” – “thank you” gulp-gulp....then hit the dance-floor running on the first beat of the next song (preferably with a partner..but ask first!) and don’t stop to think until the last bar of the song. Apologise for any shattered toenails and repeat from the beginning.

If anyone thinks this is just a joke, come along to the canteen and witness this beered-up force of nature:cheers: :sorry . I’m not being entirely facetious Beowulf, I am starting to realise that the best way to ‘do it’ is just to relax, smile and laugh when you fluff it. People are only watching to see how MUCH you dance, not how well.
:wink: :yum:

[Neil]

Originally posted by Boomer
I am starting to realise that the best way to ‘do it’ is just to relax, smile and laugh when you fluff it. Ah, you have achieved enlightenment, Grasshopper.

As a fellow drinker & dancer, let me offer this well-meaning advice: the key thing is to know when to stop. A couple of Buds will work wonders, but too many and you risk suffering from "hotshot" syndrome: you will think you're the world's greatest dancer, but sadly your performance will not match your self-belief and you may fall flat on your face (literally and metaphorically). I'm sure you've figured this out already :). Incidentally, I'm not always that great at following my own advice.

(You could always forget the Buds and try some proper beer - oh, sorry, you're in London of course. Better stick to Bud). :devil:

:cheers:

Neil

[Neil]

Originally posted by Neil
the key thing is to know when to stop To avoid being accused of being the most outrageous hypocrite this side of Westminster, I should perhaps point out that this advice does not apply on Friday or Saturday nights :wink: :devil:.

:cheers:

Neil

[Wendy]

From a (very!!!) beginner lead's point of view :

I was asked to dance as a boy the other night and hadn't done so for ages (gulp) and I managed to get through the track with only one "sh*t - I'm stuck in the first move" !! I did all the moves I could remember (10 or so ?? ) and thought the girl would have been bored to death. I apologised at the end and she was grinning and said it had been one of the best dances of the night... so go figure !!!!


From a follower's point of view :

Smiling is the most important move, of course !!!!

Starting well is important to me.... it sets the scene.. you get my trust (or not!!)....you look into my eyes and I am yours....

I love spinning !!! So make me spin !!!! A return after every move doesn't bother me in the least and it gives you a break to think about what to do next... or which hand you want to use next..

A first move push-spin and a normal first move feel like different moves.. for you they are pretty much the same so you can use one and later the other... of course any push spin gives you the chance to change hands ....

And here's a great tip if you ever want to really impress someone like me... learn that thing where you let the girl do her own thing.... ask DavidB to explain it... sigh......

Leading well is miles more important than the moves themselves as is knowing the music really well so you can do something interesting in the breaks..... or so you can let me !!!!!

Wxxxxxx