Men's styling tips

[blackisleboy]

I'm having a bit of a crisis of confidence in my dancing at the moment, and was wondering if anyone could pass on some men's styling tips, i.e. what to do with the spare hand, footwork tips, how to spin elegantly, how to keep dancing vaguely in a slot (I'm very aware that I keep moving about all over the place at the moment, and it's really bugging me) etc.

We went to utopia recently and there were so many leads there who weren't necessarily doing complicated moves, but who just looked so smooth, and connected to the music and their partners. Is it just a case of years of dancing or is there anything I can actively try practicing?

Thanks all in advance!

[Andy McGregor]

My advice is to watch the good guys and copy what they do. Go on some workshops, get some videos and go on some weekenders - and buy plenty of shoes :waycool:

[NZ Monkey]

Find somebody whose style you like, and then find out if they teach workshops :wink:

OK, seriously now:

A lot of what you'll see looking smooth isn't so much additional style as a lack of erroneous movement. Keep your stepping small, keep your spare hand alive but don't go mad waving it around, try to keep your lead smooth and clear. In other words - don't worry about style so much as keeping yourself together all the time and you'll probably find you'll come a long way on your own.

Sometimes regardless of how much you want to dance in a slot your partner will have other ideas. I'd worry about the other stuff first. I love the slot personally for a number of reasons, but it isn't a magic bullet either.

I be careful trying to find out about footwork or good spinning technique on the forum. Although there is some very good information in here, there's a bit of misinformation and more poorly explained information that could be taken the wrong way. It'd probably only lead to confusion if you're not already confident with what you're doing (in which case you'll have your own opinions that are different from everyone elses anyway! :devil: ).

I see you're based in Inverness. I know it's a loooong way out of your way, but if you're ever around London you might want to look up Simon and Nicole's (Simonr and cutey on the forum) series of workshops on spinning and musical interpretation (there's some good stuff on footwork in there as well BTW). They are excellent, and I understand they've taught in Scotland from time to time as well. I'm sure Franck or one of the other wonderful and helpful Scottish folk on this forum would be much better at pointing you in the right direction that someone from New Zealand :na:

I hope some of this helps! :flower:

[Andy McGregor]

I be careful trying to find out about footwork or good spinning technique on the forum. Although there is some very good information in here, there's a bit of misinformation and more poorly explained information that could be taken the wrong way. It'd probably only lead to confusion if you're not already confident with what you're doing (in which case you'll have your own opinions that are different from everyone elses anyway! :devil: ).
:yeah:

Unfortunately NZ Monkey is absolutely correct. My advice is to read what DavidB has written, read what David Franklin has written, read what Chef has written - Jamie is worth a read too. Some of the other stuff is completely incorrect :tears:

[NZ Monkey]

:yeah:

Unfortunately NZ Monkey is absolutely correct. My advice is to read what DavidB has written, read what David Franklin has written, read what Chef has written - Jamie is worth a read too. Some of the other stuff is completely incorrect :tears:To add another dimension to what Andy has just said, http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/land-1000-dances/12162-down-beat-upbeat-3.html is an example of a discussion between Amir (Jango) and Robert Winter (CMJ - Australia) of the merits of certain types of footwork and timing.

These are two of the best dancers AND teachers in the MJ scene and even they can't agree (although they're not really doing anything that different either.....). Neither of them is wrong about the way they dance, but even they can't agree about what the "right" way is either. Only one thing is certain - and that's that the thread is confusing if you don't already know what they're talking about.:rolleyes:

Back to the topic of the thread now.....

[Lee Bartholomew]

I would say just find something you are comfortable with style wise.

There is no right or wrong style in MJ.

My tips would be as follows:-


Slotting

This goes wrong if the woman is over turned by the lead or if she over turns herself. I dance slotted as much as possible, but it takes your partner to do the same for it to become sucessfull. All you can do as a lead is keep getting back in to the same slot if you come out of it. It takes time and practise, but def worth it in the end.

What you need to do is imagine you are dancing within train tracks. Use the floor as a visual if you can like along the strips of wood.

Now imagine a third line in the middle of the train tracks. This is the line the lady needs to use. She should pretty much move up and down this line whilst you move around her within the train tracks.

The path you need to take is around the lady, never block her line unless it is intentional. You need to move arc line around her


Styling


Do what feels comfortable and dance to different types of music.

The best way IMHO to get a style is not to just go through beats like they do in the class (1 & 2 & 3 & 4 &) but to let the music control what you are doing with your body. Use your body like you would an instrument to play the song. Lets say you can play a piano (don't know if you can or not) and you play along to the song. What you would play is not a stady stream of notes of the constant length, but various length notes of various speeds and pitches. This is what you should try and acheive within your dancing. If you manage it, let me know how. I have been trying 2 years and still cant do it.

One of my pet peve's is stamping and bouncyness. Don't know if this is a prob for you but i'll mention it anyway. Dance on your toes, only putting your heals on the floor if needed. When dancing, your toes should be the last thing to leave the floor, and should only leave the floor if intentional. The best way to think of it is, if you were holding a pen between your toes as you dance, you want to be drawing a picture of the dance on the floor. You can't do this if your foot is not touching the ground. Once you have finished the dance, the picture you will want to see is one of flowing lines rather than shot stop starty ones.

Use your whole body to dance from your head to your toes. Even a simple head movement can greatly improve a dance. Your eyes are also the most expresive thing your body can use. Use them.

Know the songs emotion. If the song is a sad song, don't be all smiles and cheers. Likewise a song where the woman wants the man? Play hard to get. The song is about the man being in love with the woman? for 3 odd mins, be in love with that woman. Dancing can be as much about acting and drama as it can be about the dance. Anone who saw the origional version of Jamie and Imogens "In Public" saw this done to brilliant effect. Forget about wether you agreed with the content or not, but what it was, was acting a dance done almost purfectly.

Clothes also play an important part in styling belive it or not. You will look much more stylish in fitted jeans/trousers and a decent shirt that you would wearing shorts and big Hawiian shirt (ps don't know if thats what you wear, just using an example). I like wearing long trousers that come down to the floor as the show of lines in the leg movements more than baggy trousers. Just make sure they are not so long they get trodden on. With me it's a psychological thing too. I can't dance unless Im wearing my dancing trousers. Crazy but true.

Im going to have some breakfast then film a short mens styling video of tips and tricks you can do on your own at home.

There is alot of info above and everyone will have their own hints and tips. I don't agree with what people are saying is bad information. With tips and hints what works for some might not work for others. There is not such thing as a bad tip when it comes to styling. Just use your own mind as to whether it is right for you.

It takes time to get style. I know of 50 something who run their own classes and been danicng years but still don't have any (im joking BTW). Take your time with it. I can tell you about the above but can not do the above. All practise. Style constantly develops and however you dance, it is still a style, all your wanting to do is evolve it.

Here's a clip if you have not aready seen it of some of the bits I mention above like the slots, head movements etc. It's me and Witty. Not great and dark but you might pick up a few bits from it.

YouTube - me and Witty Ceroc (http://youtube.com/watch?v=angDK3k3zTo)

Also one with Jamie and BlueEyes. Jamie is great at acting the dance and style. Look out for MikeyR in the left corner (yellow tee dancing with girl in pink dress) He uses clothes to compliment his style brilliantly.

YouTube - Jamie and BlueEyes Modern Jive. Jive Addiction SP June 07 (http://youtube.com/watch?v=4-doeyLmTk0&mode=related&search=)

[Tiggerbabe]

girl in pink dressaka Aleks :D

[Lee Bartholomew]

aka Aleks :D

Knew she was a forumite but couldn't think which one. :cheers:

[blackisleboy]

Thanks all so much for the tips so far and looking forward to the woodface video.

I've been lucky enough to either watch or attend workshops by amir, david & lily, simon & nicole, val & dave, marc & rachel, and of course franck and sheena, all of whom are super smooth, and I'm trying to pick up tips all the time just from watching them, although I've never seen a workshop advertised that's just about styling (hint hint!).

Hopefully I don't bounce or stamp, although as I've never seen myself dance I could well be proved wrong...

I think part of it is getting over the awkwardness of trying to put in some styling without looking like a prat - I'm pretty shy, honest, and really don't want to look like an idiot on the dancefloor.

[robd]

Too lazy to look up the link myself but know there was a recent(ish) discussion on this subject. My view is style is
* personal
* subjective
Noel (featured on one of woodface's youtube vids if you don't know him) has a very distinctive style. It's not to everyone's taste but it is his style. Same with Paul F, Marc and a few others I enjoy watching. I might try to emulate elements of their style but never adopt it wholesale.

I saw a dancer I admire hugely performing in a comp and he did a move that I associate very closely with someone else (almost their signature move). For some reason, I felt disappointed - I think it was because this person is good enough not to need to ape that other person's style.

There are, I guess, some things that can be taught in terms of style that are universal (not being pigeon toed for example) - Amir did a workshop at MJC in 2005 that covered some of these things so a private with him if possible or someone of similar calibre would help to identify issues of that nature within your dancing.

[dave the scaffolder]

Just camp your dancing up my lovely. Use your spare arm similar to a lady and smile and laugh with the lady. I found wearing pink nail varnish a great asset, i wore it at the last SP and never left the floor. Just express yourself in a wild and imaganitive way.

XX XXX DTS Dave

[Lee Bartholomew]

Just camp your dancing up my lovely. Use your spare arm similar to a lady and smile and laugh with the lady. I found wearing pink nail varnish a great asset, i wore it at the last SP and never left the floor. Just express yourself in a wild and imaganitive way.

XX XXX DTS Dave

Good point dave. Try learning to follow and 'out Lady' the ladies.

[dave the scaffolder]

Good point dave. Try learning to follow and 'out Lady' the ladies.

I have been learning to follow with Trouble being the man, it is very hard.

Onkar threw me around like a rag doll last sunday at Sarah White jive nights, i was dizzy at the end of the dance, i always seem to be on the wrong foot when being spun tho.

XXX XXX DTS Dave:whistle:

[johnnyman]

I wouldn't worry so much about this. It could be down to the fact that you are learning so much that it is taking time for you to absorb what the essence of dancing is.

Style varies from dancer to dancer. What may be defined as great style by one person may not be suitable to another. You may have reached a peak with your own efforts and are desperately trying to evolve to the next step. I have recently felt like this where I feel I am simply going through the motions with a whole lead of stylish moves linked together, but after all that it still feels like you haven't grown or moved on.

Don't worry - I am sure you will reemerge a better dancer in the long run.

best
johnnyman

[StokeBloke]

A few sound bite sized pieces of advice I got when I first started out were:

Keep your feet close to the ground
Keep your free hand above your belt
Never stamp
Keep your back straight
Never click your fingers
and
Smile, smile, smile... I'm still struggling with that one :wink:

[Lee Bartholomew]

A few sound bite sized pieces of advice I got when I first started out were:

Keep your feet close to the ground
Keep your free hand above your belt
Never stamp
Keep your back straight
Never click your fingers
and
Smile, smile, smile... I'm still struggling with that one :wink:


Agree with that. Esp never click your fingers. Theres a horrible horrible move where the lady is behind the man and the both sway side to side clicking fingers. Just looks wrong.

With the smiling it is one of the hardest parts. If you watch the dancers on TV etc, they have real fake smiles. Benji Swimmer does it to a tee. Ob. if it is a slow sultry song, smiling not not be an option.

[robd]

Esp never click your fingers. Theres a horrible horrible move where the lady is behind the man and the both sway side to side clicking fingers. Just looks wrong.


But I bet Viktor could make it look good - it's less about what you're doing, more about how you're doing it.

Paul Warden (sorry, I know I'm starting to sound like a groupie) clicks his fingers a lot when he dances. If he's got poor style then give me some of it.....

[Lee Bartholomew]

But I bet Viktor could make it look good - it's less about what you're doing, more about how you're doing it.

Paul Warden (sorry, I know I'm starting to sound like a groupie) clicks his fingers a lot when he dances. If he's got poor style then give me some of it.....

I wont ask how you get special passes at events. :na:


You made me think about it abit. Your right, there are some people that can pull it off, but Paul W and Viktor are not just some people, they are very stylish and could probably make a woodface spin look good. :wink:

Then again, there are people who click and it just look terrible.

Guess if you are thinking about doing it you would just have to decide what category you would fall in to. :nice:

[Andy McGregor]

I have been learning to follow with Trouble being the man, it is very hard.

Onkar threw me around like a rag doll last sunday at Sarah White jive nights, i was dizzy at the end of the dance, i always seem to be on the wrong foot when being spun tho.

XXX XXX DTS Dave:whistle:Hi Dave (my lovely),

The reason you are on the wrong foot in the spins when following is that you are naturally doing the men's footwork. This is LRLRLRLR. The way to get on the ladies foot is to do a girlie skip (aka, Ali shuffle) then keep stepping on every beat. This should put you on RLRLRLRL footwork and place you on the correct foot for the turns and spins.

We must have a nice girlie dance the next time we meet. Possibly around our handbags.

Love,

Andy :love:

[Andy McGregor]

I'm having a bit of a crisis of confidence in my dancing at the moment, and was wondering if anyone could pass on some men's styling tips, i.e. what to do with the spare hand, footwork tips, how to spin elegantly, how to keep dancing vaguely in a slot (I'm very aware that I keep moving about all over the place at the moment, and it's really bugging me) etc.

We went to utopia recently and there were so many leads there who weren't necessarily doing complicated moves, but who just looked so smooth, and connected to the music and their partners. Is it just a case of years of dancing or is there anything I can actively try practicing?

Thanks all in advance!I've been watching this thread with interest. It sounds like blackisleboy is doing the right thing by wanting to improve. However, as I said earlier, he needs to be careful where he takes his advice from :wink:

My advice is from a Zen perpective. Go for no-style, regard this as your blank canvas. Get your basic technique correct. Do all of your moves with a minimum of effort and a maximum of precision. Be minimalist. Regard good technique as your foundation. And, once you have the blank canvas of good technique, then, and only then, can you start colouring your dancing with style.

There are many people who can be summed up as "style over substance". They've been seduced by style before they have good technique. This results in their "style" hindering their development as a dancer. You may already have received advice from this "style" of dancer. Some of it might even be correct - some of it will, however, be misdirection. However, I refer you to my previous answer - get some private lessons or just ask your regular teacher for some tips.

[Lee Bartholomew]

Then again what some people see as lack of technique, is just where they might have the technique wrong themselves.

Look at vids of dancers etc find a style you like then look at the advice from there. I would not take style advice from someone who's style I did not like or someone whome I have not seen dance and im sure, if your sensible, you wouldn't either. For example, I am not at the mo in to swing (or two tone shoes) dancing, so I wouldn't really be keen on taking advice from someone who specialises in that.


I don't know if you have been on my youtube list yet but if you haven't there are many forumites on there, identified by their forum name (im still woodface on there) Im sure if you see a style you like then they will be approcable as to giving tips etc. The ones IMO to look out for are MikeyR, Jamie and if your into the Lindy kind of Style, MartyBaby

Link Here -> YouTube - Broadcast Yourself. (http://youtube.com/profile_videos?user=w00dface&p=r&page=1)

[blackisleboy]

Thanks all for the latest round of tips.

I'll definately be trying my most charming smile tomorrow night. Apparently for the first couple of months I had a look of total fear on my face, and even now most people know not to try and talk to me when I dance, but hopefully now I'll be able to smile a bit, if not converse...

I'd be interested to know what others think of StokeBloke's advice to keep your spare hand above your belt. His advice in general is bang on, but I find the spare hand issue problematic as it feels awkward in any position!

[Jamie]

I'd be interested to know what others think of StokeBloke's advice to keep your spare hand above your belt. His advice in general is bang on, but I find the spare hand issue problematic as it feels awkward in any position!

It's excellent advice.. Keeping your spare hand above waist level is a great way of using your spare arm, but not over doing it... I'd just add to that and say make sure you always keep your spare arm's palm to the floor, it just looks better.

Don't look at the floor is another tip... Try and keep your head up and look into your partners eyes, makes the dance 10x better in my opinion.

Have fun, let us know how you get on.

Jamie

[NZ Monkey]

It's excellent advice.. Keeping your spare hand above waist level is a great way of using your spare arm, but not over doing it... I'd just add to that and say make sure you always keep your
That’s one of Amirs little nuggets about the spare arm as well. At least, I first saw that advice on his website.

Despite this, I’ve noticed that Lee Easton often dances with his hand lower than his waist and makes it look fantastic. He does keep it alive though; even “posed” from the shoulder which makes it look nothing like the floppy noodle effect that you often see when someones hand is that low. As the worlds number one ranked line dancer, he’s someone to pay attention to.

I guess there is more than one way to skin a cat. It makes me even happier that I’m not a cat knowing that….

[Mezzosoprano]

Dear Blackisleboy.....

We love ya in the class! you are getting better all the time and we have to queue to get a dance! Re the lack of confidence - take a look at it this way, your dancing is improving all the time (I wish mine was getting better that fast), your style will develop as you do. You're doing the right thing by getting advice on it... it's cool, don't sweat it....

Now, can you help me on Thursday with this dancing in the slot business???

:hug: :hug:

[blackisleboy]

Bless ya Mezzo, much appreciated!

Lots of tips thus far, so I'll be trying them out tonight - just remind me to smile every now and then, cause I'll be concentrating so hard...


Dear Blackisleboy.....

Now, can you help me on Thursday with this dancing in the slot business???

:hug: :hug:

erm, you do realise thursday is today.....?

Will do my best, although dancing in a slot is proving very tricky for me, which is strange given that the classes are all taught pretty much in a slot, and no-one seems to have much trouble with that. Just when it gets to freestyle it all goes horribly wrong!

See you tonight! x

[MartinHarper]

One thing I've been trying recently to apply to my own dancing is to keep my wrists straight, rather than letting my hands flop down. It's tough. Forumites have permission to tell me off when I'm doing it.

I'm surprised to see finger-snaps as a negative thing. I do that from time to time. Should I stop?


how to keep dancing vaguely in a slot (I'm very aware that I keep moving about all over the place at the moment, and it's really bugging me)

Rather than thinking about slotting the dance, another alternative is to think about how you are moving the follower. Ideally she should either be staying on the spot (eg returns, freezes), moving in a straight line (eg travelling returns, walks), or moving in a circle (eg circular walks). Nice geometric patterns rather than random doodles. This should give a deliberate look to the dance without necessarilly slotting the whole thing.

[Tiggerbabe]

I'm surprised to see finger-snaps as a negative thing. I do that from time to time. Should I stop?
No. "From time to time" is cool :D

[spindr]

I'm surprised to see finger-snaps as a negative thing. I do that from time to time. Should I stop?
If it was good enough for the Fonz...
SpinDr

[MartinHarper]

If it was good enough for the Fonz...
SpinDr

I was more going for Angelo "Snaps" Provolone.

[Gadget]

I'm having a bit of a crisis of confidence in my dancing at the moment, and was wondering if anyone could pass on some men's styling tips, i.e. what to do with the spare hand, footwork tips, how to spin elegantly, how to keep dancing vaguely in a slot (I'm very aware that I keep moving about all over the place at the moment, and it's really bugging me) etc.
First, I would say that my definition of "Styling" is anything that is suplimental and does not detract from the lead:
- In footwork terms, you could put in some tripple steps, slides, cross steps,... as long as it didn't change your lead.
- In terms of your off hand, keep it moving but don't confuse the follower with actions that could be mistaken for visual signals.
- For spins, there is not much 'style' that you can add in withoud disrupting the lead - most come from changing the speed of the spin; doing it slowly, quickly, progrssivly, dramatic stops,...
- Slotted dancing is more about control of your partner than anything else - it's just that a slot is the easiest way to both learn and demonstrate this.

But you styling has to be laid over a "good" technique - by this I mean constant and controlled rather than technically perfect: it's technique that will make footwork crisp, spins elegant and dancing controlled.


We went to utopia recently and there were so many leads there who weren't necessarily doing complicated moves, but who just looked so smooth, and connected to the music and their partners. Is it just a case of years of dancing or is there anything I can actively try practicing?
Technically; preperation, constant connection with your partner and slowing things down helps you 'smooth' out your dancing, but a lot of it is confidence and dancing to the music. For activly practicing, I would recommend simply moving to the music whenever you hear it (even if it's just 'finger dancing'). Try and predict breaks and emphisise bits in the music.

There are a couple of threads you may also be interested in...
Style (for men) (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/intermediate-corner/6907-style.html)
Men's style point - right hand - does this look OK or not? (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/lets-talk-about-dance/13392-mens-style-point-right-hand-does-look-ok-not.html)
Musicality For Men (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/intermediate-corner/12400-musicality-men.html)
Hand flourishes in MJ...what's the consensus? (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/intermediate-corner/12530-hand-flourishes-mj-whats-consensus.html)
Ceroc style vs technique vs moves (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/intermediate-corner/118-ceroc-style-vs-technique-vs-moves.html) (<- quite a good DavidB thread)
Improving My Dancing (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/intermediate-corner/3116-improving-my-dancing.html)