Advanced ladies style problem

[jim]

I have this problem I can't dance with stylish advanced women. In fact the better they look from a distance the harder I find them.

So for example; Tatian Mollian is my worst nightmare, but Sarah Van Drake no problem.

At the moment the only way I can really dance with this type of lady is by essentially following their style. But of course I'm so busy trying to match their style that I find it hard to think of moves, let alone predict where they're going to be so that I can lead them.

I resort to basic moves because I can't control :sick: them and then they get boared so they sabaotage me:devil: . Then I get offended and black list them:angry: . And then they sit there wounder why I never ask them to dance:tears: . And I leave early because I'm trying to aviod them:( .
Not pretty:blush: .

At the same time I've been reading the ladies taking the inititiave thread and I've been working on giving women more space, and employing a swing type / conversation lead. And it's kind of worked.

One girl went from the worst dance of the night one week, to the best dance of the night the next week.

Only problem is another girl went from best dance of the night to worse dance of the night in the space of half an hour:really: .

And I'm still not sure weather they're not actually just leading me, and over decorating because i'm not throwing compicated enough stuff at them or weather they're doing some kinda of complicated competition, conversation swing-thing which I just haven't mastered yet.

Any suggestions?


P.S i can't work out how to download the spell check and I'm dyslexic:tears:

[stairman]

I would say you are worring to mutch

most good dancers like to dance with someone that is in time with the music more than someone with flashey moves slightly out of time

[stairman]

I should also point out that I have been going to Ceroc for less than a year

[Minnie M]

I have this problem I can't dance with stylish advanced women. In fact the better they look from a distance the harder I find them...............
A good follower should follow any good lead - Have a little more confidence in your lead :hug:


ISo for example; Tatian Mollian is my worst nightmare, but Sarah Van Drake no problem..............
:confused:

However, Tatiana & Sarah have slightly different styles

I have absolutely no problem dancing with Kyle but have to concentrate when following Jordan - yet both are amazing leads :respect: or is it that I am more nervous dancing with Jordan :blush:

[Caro]

I'm just going to reply to this :


I resort to basic moves because I can't control :sick: them and then they get boared so they sabaotage me:devil: .

I do what you call 'sabotage' (I call it participating in the dance, though :innocent: ), and I do it A LOT with most men I'm confident with - I cannot think of ONE instance where I did this because I was bored. I do it because I like to participate in the dance, and (when not practicing) because I have heard something in the music that I want to use, to make our dance more musical (well, at least in the way I hear the music!).

The best sign I'm bored and not even listening to the music in fact, is if I just go through the moves and do nothing else. :what:

So... just thought that might help you realise that your perception 'ladies sabotage when they're bored' might be incorrect... :flower:

[Lee Bartholomew]

I agree with Caro,

If a lady is sabotaging, she is ob enjoying the music and the dance.

I enjoy follows that do this. It makes the dance more interesting. Us men only know X amount of moves and dances tend to become more and more repetative until the follow make the moves and dance someting different.

Jim, with these ladies, just give them alittle bit of time and space and you will get used to it.

If your unsure how to do it or want more advice on it, grab me at Warmley or where ever you next see me, an I will be glad to go up the back with you during the class time to go through some things you can do and help you out a little.

As I always said when I was teaching, It's not a Male lead dance, It's a male suggested dance.

[Slider]

As I always said when I was teaching, It's not a Male lead dance, It's a male suggested dance.

I like that!

I enjoy it when the lady does her own thing, makes me look good sometimes too :wink:. When there's 'something' in the music, I struggle to think of a way to interpret it, so am relieved when she does it, if you know what I mean!

[Alice]

So... just thought that might help you realise that your perception 'ladies sabotage when they're bored' might be incorrect... :flower:
:yeah: Also few reasonably sensitive follows would do sabotages if they didn't think you'd be able to cope:wink:

unless they were practicing something perhaps, but I don't think Tatiana or Sarah would fall into that category....

[frodo]

I have this problem I can't dance with stylish advanced women. In fact the better they look from a distance the harder I find them.

Some of the best looking / most stylish dancers aren't the best followers, and sometimes they're too busy styling to follow.


So it is questionable whether it is the leaders problem.

I think it is a mistake to dance too much to the style of the follower if it doesn't match your own (especially one with a high energy use vast amounts of floor sort of style ).


It may be particularly true of competitive followers where the focus can be more on looking good. Some do indeed follow like the dream they look like but others ...

[Ghost]

Various thoughts.

There's predominently two styles of leading. "Suggesting" and "Commanding".

Different follows like different amounts of space. Some ladies I can happily let go off completely and freestyle dance with, others will kill me slowly and painfully if I did this.

Likewise the amount of space a follow wants varies throughout the night acoording to the music, how inspired they feel, whether they've just been dancing with a string of "suggestion" leads and really want a bit less space for this dance, or have been dancing with a string of "commanding" leads and really want a bit more space, what phase the moon is in.....

You get the idea :wink:

If they play your job is to do mainly three things.
1. Flow with what they do
2. Keep going with leading the dance - it's unlikely they want to play for the whole dance (but not impossible :grin: )
3. Enjoy it

Trust me - the absolute biggest secret to this is enjoying it. As soon as you start to think "Ekk she's bored", she'll probably pick up on it and it'll go down hill fast :sad:

Emotional connection and some moves to inspire her - if you can get musicality in there as well :clap:

[Martin]

I would say it is real simple, stick to follows who are not advanced and stylish, when you become more experienced you will find that they are easier to dance with. In the mean time you have the vast majority of follows to dance with :nice: :nice: :nice:

Lots of fun and no stress. :cheers:

[Raul]

I would say it is real simple, stick to follows who are not advanced and stylish, when you become more experienced you will find that they are easier to dance with. In the mean time you have the vast majority of follows to dance with :nice: :nice: :nice:

Lots of fun and no stress. :cheers:

Followers have different styles and different levels of ability but the main hindrance and difficulty in dancing with any of them is the mental perception we have of their ability, especially if they are talented, and letting that affect the way that we dance with them.

Enjoy the dance, let your best abilities flow while keeping dance connection. That's the best way of ensuring that they have a good dance. Worrying about their style and adapting your dance to theirs can only work if you are going to do that confidently and reasonably well.

[Martin]

Followers have different styles and different levels of ability but the main hindrance and difficulty in dancing with any of them is the mental perception we have of their ability, especially if they are talented, and letting that affect the way that we dance with them.

Enjoy the dance, let your best abilities flow while keeping dance connection. That's the best way of ensuring that they have a good dance. Worrying about their style and adapting your dance to theirs can only work if you are going to do that confidently and reasonably well.

well said Raul. :respect:

[jim]

Thanks for all the responses.

My favourite is Ghosts there's two ways of leading; 'suggestive' and 'commanding'. - that's a good way to think about things and fits best into what I've seen and heard.

A bit compicated though don't you think? I mean the two different styles of leading aren't just slightly different there completely different, It's like doing a different dance.

How many people could honsetly say they'd mastered both?

- Not the type of thing they teach you in your average ceroc class.

[Caro]

How many people could honsetly say they'd mastered both?


but why would you want to master the 'commanding' style ? :confused: :whistle: :wink:

[timbp]

eThanks for all the responses.

My favourite is Ghosts there's two ways of leading; 'suggestive' and 'commanding'. - that's a good way to think about things and fits best into what I've seen and heard.

A bit compicated though don't you think? I mean the two different styles of leading aren't just slightly different there completely different, It's like doing a different dance.

They shouldn't be completely different.
Think of any move you do that has more than one possible exit (and probably a usual exit). Lead that move but stop leading immediately before the exit. See what exit the follower chooses, and pick up the lead from there.
You have just done an "invitational" lead. But if you started the move and kept the lead so the exit had to be what you decided, that is an "imperative", "commanding" lead.



How many people could honsetly say they'd mastered both?
"mastered"? who has mastered anything?
I haven't mastered both or either, but I can give most followers a good dance.

[Raul]

but why would you want to master the 'commanding' style ? :confused: :whistle: :wink:

May be.

I occasionally come across followers who very much prefer a strong clear and commanding lead, leaving them no room to go wrong, think or whatever. It takes all sorts.

For these followers, you have to mentally go into the "Me Tarzan you Jane" frame of mind and take complete responsibility for what you do, what she does, the stampeding elephants around you, the high-kicking giraffes, the aerial monkeys, whilst looking manfully into her eyes and keep her heart beating.

Are there any workshops for that?

[Tiggerbabe]

Are there any workshops for that?
Sounds like you should run one :whistle: :wink:

[jim]

I think it's called Tango.:wink:

[David Bailey]

but why would you want to master the 'commanding' style ? :confused: :whistle: :wink:
To keep you in your place, woman :na:

[David Bailey]

I think it's called Tango.:wink:
Despite what it seems, Tango is no more commanding than any other partner dance.

Yes, the lady shouldn't shift weight by herself, but she has a lot of options for independent actions and interpretation - ganchos and boleos, for example

Although, like in MJ, AT followers sometimes fall into the trap of trying to interpret before they have learnt to properly follow, resulting in chaos - especially as learning to follow takes almost as many years as learning to lead does.

[Caro]

To keep you in your place, woman :na:

I'd like to see you try :rofl:


Mind you, last time we danced (remember :rolleyes: ) it was a tango, so I would have behaved... :innocent:

[Lee Bartholomew]

Despite what it seems, Tango is no more commanding than any other partner dance.

Yes, the lady shouldn't shift weight by herself, but she has a lot of options for independent actions and interpretation - ganchos and boleos, for example

Although, like in MJ, AT followers sometimes fall into the trap of trying to interpret before they have learnt to properly follow, resulting in chaos - especially as learning to follow takes almost as many years as learning to lead does.

Aggg Jim what have you done? Never, ever, ever mention the T word on the forum. :whistle:

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

[David Bailey]

Mind you, last time we danced (remember :rolleyes: ) it was a tango, so I would have behaved... :innocent:
Ah yes, it was a wonderful occasion, which will stick in my mind forever.

[Caro]

Ah yes, it was a wonderful occasion, which will stick in my mind forever.

can you sound any less convincing? :rolleyes:

you know, sometimes, it's better not to type anything :what:

[StokeBloke]

Remember back when you thought you woould take up dancing because it seemed like fun... well this is the fun part! It seems to me that you need to chill the fx out mate. Relax and enjoy. If you feel that the more experienced follows are bringing their own thing to the dance.... let them. If you give them room to play and express themselves, rather than drag them through first move after first move you'll soon become very popular lead.

There is a lot said at Ceroc lessons about jive being a male led dance. But don't let that fool you. Allow your partner some room, watch and enjoy your partner as you dance together. But above all... learn to relax. It's only jigging around a church all to a few records after all :wink:

[Icey]

I occasionally come across followers who very much prefer a strong clear and commanding lead, leaving them no room to go wrong, think or whatever. It takes all sorts.


The first time I dance with someone new I like to follow their lead to the letter so that I can gauge how much (if any) potential there is for "extra" styling. Later on, once I have relaxed I will try throwing in the odd bit of "extra" styling and see how it is received.

One chap I see every so often is the master (IMO) of the suggested type lead and I find that I put far more thought and emotional connection into that dance because he allows me to.

I hasten to add the first time I danced with him I felt waaaay out of my depth and comfort zone but repeated dances has taught me alot about my dancing and my opinion of it - if he enjoyed it and came back for more I can't really have been that bad ... could I?

[David Bailey]

Oh yes, the topic... :blush:


. If you feel that the more experienced follows are bringing their own thing to the dance.... let them.
Yeah, but the problem is that "over-interpreters" are often those bloody-intermediate dancers, who think that good following = hijacking / sabotage / lots of "independence". And these people tend to follow much less well because they're caught up with doing their own thing, which makes leading them more difficult because they're just not paying attention to the lead.

I suspect this is something like the problem as descrbed, although obviously Tatiana isn't an intermediate.

Also, I believe that WCS is more "interpretation-friendly" than MJ, so followers who've done WCS may want more freedom to do their own thing. But they may not - for example, Lily.

[dance cat]

Am I the only woman who doesn't like playing or sabotaging in a dance?
I dance quite regularly with a dance teacher who keeps encouraging me to do my own thing. Though I learn lots from dancing with him I find this area intimidating. I think it comes from the fear of looking stupid and the fear of doing something wrong though he says that in blues it's not possible. I hate it when I'm dancing and the man's thumb goes onto my hand because I think 'Oh here we go I'm going to make a prat of myself because I have no idea what he wants me to do'. I have ruined quite lovely dances with fabulously smooth dancers because they have signalled for me to do my own thing and I have gone into panic mode. I don't think it's because I'm unadventurous because I like learning new moves or styles of dancing so it's quite interesting to hear that from the male point of view they don't always find it easy to dance with women who add lots of their own styling.

[David Bailey]

Am I the only woman who doesn't like playing or sabotaging in a dance?
Nope, as I said, Ms Barker's expressed a clear and strong preference that way also, so I think you're in good company :wink:

[Caro]

I hate it when I'm dancing and the man's thumb goes onto my hand because I think 'Oh here we go I'm going to make a prat of myself because I have no idea what he wants me to do'. I have ruined quite lovely dances with fabulously smooth dancers because they have signalled for me to do my own thing and I have gone into panic mode.

I would totally freak out too if that happened. :what:

God knows I love taking any opportunity to do my own thing, yet I absolutely hate to be told (the thumbs on the back on my hand thing) to do it.
And no it's not contradictory men, it's all the difference between inviting and forcing...


Last week end a guy at Utopia did it to me, I suppose he was expecting me to wiggle down (I don't do that), so I just kept stepping on the spot, vaguely crossing a leg in front of the other and looking at him with a 'I'm so not going to do anything else you'd better lead something now' stare, which it seems didn't work at all (must work on that stare), since he did that about 5 times in the dance :what: .

[LilyB]

Am I the only woman who doesn't like playing or sabotaging in a dance?
No.


... I have ruined quite lovely dances with fabulously smooth dancers because they have signalled for me to do my own thing and I have gone into panic mode ...
Try not to let that worry you. It should be seen as an invitation to you to 'let your creative side take over', rather than depend on him to lead the next move. You are perfectly entitled to decline that invitation. Me, I have no 'creative side', so doing 'my own thing' just isn't my kinda thing:wink: . I do, however, love to embellish and add my own touch to moves my partner has led, without interfering with his lead. I guess I'm just lazy - it's much easier to leave the responsibility of leading to the man.:D

[Tiggerbabe]

Me, I have no 'creative side', so doing 'my own thing' just isn't my kinda thing:wink: . I do, however, love to embellish and add my own touch to moves my partner has led, without interfering with his lead. I guess I'm just lazy - it's much easier to leave the responsibility of leading to the man.:D
From the most creative/stylish dancer I have ever seen/been taught by :respect:

[Gus]

I do, however, love to embellish and add my own touch to moves my partner has led, without interfering with his lead. I guess I'm just lazy - it's much easier to leave the responsibility of leading to the man.:DSuch modest words from someone who has inspired so many. :worthy: :worthy: I think that many ladies would profit more form watching how Lily 'embellishes' rather than feeling the need to sabotage and look throw in moves that make them look like a baboon on heat (OK ... slightly OTT description but you know what I mean).

[Tiggerbabe]

(OK ... slightly OTT description but you know what I mean).Actually, no...please elaborate :flower:

[Gus]

Actually, no...please elaborate :flower:Bu**er ... know I should have use les choice words :wink:

OK ... some ladies use a sabotage break or a tranfer of lead to do moves which the think look sexy. The going down and wiggling or the ladies tease come to mind. The reference to simian behaviour comes from the ladies tease. I remeber seing one lady doing a very enthusiastic and drawn out version with her derrier wiggiling in front of the guy ... and it just reminded me of baboon mating rituals where they approach the males backside first. .... Sorry, it s just how it looked to me :blush: ...maybe I need to get out more.....

[StokeBloke]

God knows I love taking any opportunity to do my own thing, yet I absolutely hate to be told (the thumbs on the back on my hand thing) to do it.
Being invited to put something into the dance and instead giving your lead a Paddington Bear hard stare for having the cheek to invite you to take part. I don't blame you for stepping on the spot and staring at him - the cad! How absolutely unreasonable of him to give you some space Caro and let you know he was doing so!!! :rolleyes:

All good leads are mind readers and know exactly when you're going to add something in yourself you know. Jesus!

[Andy McGregor]

Bu**er ... know I should have use les choice words :wink:

OK ... some ladies use a sabotage break or a tranfer of lead to do moves which the think look sexy. The going down and wiggling or the ladies tease come to mind. The reference to simian behaviour comes from the ladies tease. I remeber seing one lady doing a very enthusiastic and drawn out version with her derrier wiggiling in front of the guy ... and it just reminded me of baboon mating rituals where they approach the males backside first. .... Sorry, it s just how it looked to me :blush: ...maybe I need to get out more.....I thought Baboons used their bottoms to deter attackers. It's how I've used my bottom - attackers are so busy laughing I can easily make my escape :wink:

On the subject of ladies making it difficult to lead, if a lady does not follow your lead for most of the dance she is not part of the partnership. You might even say she is not a good dancer - maybe even that she is a bad dancer :innocent:

[spindr]

Rondes are a particular issue -- especially if the follower doesn't complete it within the beat -- then their momentum will probably still be moving backwards when the leader wants to lead them to move forwards.

However, it doesn't make them a bad dancer -- simply that they need to practice their styling technique more -- or drop that particular one :)

SpinDr

[stairman]

I would totally freak out too if that happened. :what:

God knows I love taking any opportunity to do my own thing, yet I absolutely hate to be told (the thumbs on the back on my hand thing) to do it.
And no it's not contradictory men, it's all the difference between inviting and forcing...


Last week end a guy at Utopia did it to me, I suppose he was expecting me to wiggle down (I don't do that), so I just kept stepping on the spot, vaguely crossing a leg in front of the other and looking at him with a 'I'm so not going to do anything else you'd better lead something now' stare, which it seems didn't work at all (must work on that stare), since he did that about 5 times in the dance :what: .

I have only recently been introduced to the "thumbs on the back of the hand thing" My impression was that it was an invitation only and the lead had to Get On With the dance if the follower was not interested and not offer again in that dance (or wait until they were finished and returned the lead)

[Tiggerbabe]

Rondes are a particular issue -- especially if the follower doesn't complete it within the beat -- then their momentum will probably still be moving backwards when the leader wants to lead them to move forwards.If the follower wishes her ronde to take longer than the one beat, then she will need to hi-jack the lead and is no longer just adding styling.

[Freudian Hips]

Bu**er ... know I should have use les choice words :wink:

OK ... some ladies use a sabotage break or a tranfer of lead to do moves which the think look sexy. The going down and wiggling or the ladies tease come to mind. The reference to simian behaviour comes from the ladies tease. I remeber seing one lady doing a very enthusiastic and drawn out version with her derrier wiggiling in front of the guy ... and it just reminded me of baboon mating rituals where they approach the males backside first. .... Sorry, it s just how it looked to me :blush: ...maybe I need to get out more.....


I hereby promise - NO MORE WIGGLING!!!



Being invited to put something into the dance and instead giving your lead a Paddington Bear hard stare for having the cheek to invite you to take part. I don't blame you for stepping on the spot and staring at him - the cad! How absolutely unreasonable of him to give you some space Caro and let you know he was doing so!!! :rolleyes:

[SIZE=1]SIZE]

I don't know. IMHO mode coming here .........

The problem with this kind of "space" for me is that it can feel unequal. On the few occasions it has happened to me, I have felt very, very uncomfortable. Even to interpreting it as letchery. I don't dance to titillate my partner (as a rule :blush: ), so having the guy basically stop and apparently expect me to do something interesting when I didn't know this was coming, have no idea how long he is going to let me have this "opportunity" and he seems to be watching me to see what I can do, how sexy I can me - hey :confused: I don't know. It just feels horrible :(

On the other hand, I love a dance conversation, I love to play:clap: embellish :D pick up and idea and throw it back to the lead.:respect:

[NZ Monkey]

Yeah, but the problem is that "over-interpreters" are often those bloody-intermediate dancers, who think that good following = hijacking / sabotage / lots of "independence". And these people tend to follow much less well because they're caught up with doing their own thing, which makes leading them more difficult because they're just not paying attention to the lead.
:yeah:


I do, however, love to embellish and add my own touch to moves my partner has led, without interfering with his lead. From the guys perspective this one little line from Lily is the biggest difference. If you play without interfering with the lead then it's an embellishment and makes us think "Wow!". If you play without paying any attention to the lead or actively fighting it then you're (usually) not dancing with your partner*. A lot of the "advanced" ladies who "embellish" routinely are the the later, and if they do it constantly it get's really irritating.

Plus they tend to make it look like the guy's doing a bad job of leading them rather than them doing a bad job of following. How unfair is that?! :na:

One possibility is that they know they're trying to acheive what LilyB suggested, but they don't have the experience yet to do it well or consistantly. If they *used* to be good followers this is probably the case and I can't begrudge them for trying something different and getting better. If I don't know them from a bar of soap I just give them the benefit of the doubt if it isn't obvious they don't know what they're doing otherwise.


God knows I love taking any opportunity to do my own thing, yet I absolutely hate to be told (the thumbs on the back on my hand thing) to do it.
And no it's not contradictory men, it's all the difference between inviting and forcing...
Eek! I rest my thumbs on the back of partners hand all the time! Now I know why I have such a hard job leading all the time...... and why you kept on giving me the evil eye during all those dances :tears:

:wink:


*I can think of a handful of cases where my partner has completly backlead something that was brilliant and that I couldn't have led even if I'd though of it, so I'm not making a real blanket statement here.

[StokeBloke]

I hereby promise - NO MORE WIGGLING!!!




I don't know. IMHO mode coming here .........

The problem with this kind of "space" for me is that it can feel unequal. On the few occasions it has happened to me, I have felt very, very uncomfortable. Even to interpreting it as letchery. I don't dance to titillate my partner (as a rule :blush: ), so having the guy basically stop and apparently expect me to do something interesting when I didn't know this was coming, have no idea how long he is going to let me have this "opportunity" and he seems to be watching me to see what I can do, how sexy I can me - hey :confused: I don't know. It just feels horrible :(

On the other hand, I love a dance conversation, I love to play:clap: embellish :D pick up and idea and throw it back to the lead.:respect:
Bearing in mind the reason that this thread started, maybe it would be an idea to cut the lead a little bit of slack... no?

It is hard when you start dancing to know where you're going with the next move - literally. If someone starts to throw their own stuff in it can really screw with your mind. Having a chance to get used to that happening, and indeed invite it is a great way to learn how to bounce off of your partner. Not something that is taught in classes. I feel any lead who is exploring this avenue should be appluded and encouraged, not made to feel like a letcherous old pervert - even if I am :D :D :D

[robd]

Rondes are a particular issue -- especially if the follower doesn't complete it within the beat -- then their momentum will probably still be moving backwards when the leader wants to lead them to move forwards.

However, it doesn't make them a bad dancer -- simply that they need to practice their styling technique more -- or drop that particular one :)



Big fat :yeah: to all of that



God knows I love taking any opportunity to do my own thing, yet I absolutely hate to be told (the thumbs on the back on my hand thing) to do it.
And no it's not contradictory men, it's all the difference between inviting and forcing...


I think I would have a reputation of being a lead who allows followers space to do their thing - I sometimes think of it as 'following the follower' in that you need to be sensitive to what they are trying to achieve and able to abort any planned lead to support that diversion. In this it helps a lot if the follower gives a clear indication that they are doing something different. I dance with some followers who like to play but they give me no indication of it until they are doing it which tends to mean that I am committed to the lead I had intended to give and it all becomes a bit of an unsatisfying mess really. Most of the women who 'play' well are so much better at dancing and expressing the music through their movements than I am that I believe the dance is better for giving them this lassitude. However I do not (knowingly) ever expect/demand that ladies 'play'. Sometimes I'll hit a break, pause waiting for the next phrase to start and the follower will assume I want her to do something - quite often they'll do those cerochoes for some reason :confused: - but I am just marking time really.



Bearing in mind the reason that this thread started, maybe it would be an idea to cut the lead a little bit of slack... no?


:yeah:

In the same way that an experienced leader shouldn't expect a new follower to be able to embellish or play neither should experienced followers expect newer leaders to be able to deal with variations to what they are trying to lead.

[Caro]

Being invited to put something into the dance and instead giving your lead a Paddington Bear hard stare for having the cheek to invite you to take part. I don't blame you for stepping on the spot and staring at him - the cad! How absolutely unreasonable of him to give you some space Caro and let you know he was doing so!!! :rolleyes:

All good leads are mind readers and know exactly when you're going to add something in yourself you know. Jesus!

hey fair enough doing it once, but 5 times in the dance???? To me it felt like he was thinking 'come on this is where you wiggle down, may be if I try one more time you'll get it'? :what:

I'm not asking men to be mind readers, but how would you feel SB if during, say, an invitation pass, I took hold of both your hands, put some pressure to let you know something's happening, froze, and told you 'go on now, do your stuff', watch you and don't let go until you have done something ? :sick:
This is exactly the same, there's so many reasons it feels awful, one, it usually comes out of the blue, two, there's an expectation the lady will do something and she'd better look good cause you're watching, three - do I even need a three really?

If you want to give a follow some space, an invitation pass is so much nicer - the follow can chose to do something with it (or not, say if the music doesn't inspire her anything) and there's no pressure that she 'has' to do something for you to resume leading. You suggest that she can take as much time as she wants, and she'll decide what to do with it...

[robd]

hey fair enough doing it once, but 5 times in the dance???? To me it felt like he was thinking 'come on this is where you wiggle down, may be if I try one more time you'll get it'? :what:


But since you are very preetttyyyy laadddeeee, I can understand what he was thinking :wink: :whistle:

[Lory]

the man's thumb goes onto my hand


(the thumbs on the back on my hand thing)


I have only recently been introduced to the "thumbs on the back of the hand thing"


Eek! I rest my thumbs on the back of partners hand all the time!

Am I the only person who's never heard of this? :confused: :blush:

[Caro]

Eek! I rest my thumbs on the back of partners hand all the time! Now I know why I have such a hard job leading all the time...... and why you kept on giving me the evil eye during all those dances :tears:



you know it's not what we're talking about here... Some guys indicate that they want their follow to 'do something' by holding them at arm's length, and applying pressure on their hand (usually via the thumb on the back of the hand) to keep them on the spot while they're waiting for it.
You've never done that :flower: :hug:


I think I would have a reputation of being a lead who allows followers space to do their thing - I sometimes think of it as 'following the follower' in that you need to be sensitive to what they are trying to achieve and able to abort any planned lead to support that diversion. In this it helps a lot if the follower gives a clear indication that they are doing something different. I dance with some followers who like to play but they give me no indication of it until they are doing it which tends to mean that I am committed to the lead I had intended to give and it all becomes a bit of an unsatisfying mess really.

You certainly do Rob, and you 'following' me is the very reason why I love dancing with you so much - this is when the dance becomes a real conversation and we both get to shape it according to what we ear... brilliant.
I have no idea though in which category of follows I fall though, so even more credit to you if I don't give you a clear indication of what's going on... :flower:


In the same way that an experienced leader shouldn't expect a new follower to be able to embellish or play neither should experienced followers expect newer leaders to be able to deal with variations to what they are trying to lead.

That's very true, I would never start messing with a lead if I feel the guy is not too confident or would really be thrown if I suggested we ended the move differently...

[robd]

A few more thoughts on this

1 - There are times within a pattern/move that lend themselves to playing and times that don't. The better followers know this and play within those times. The less accomplished ones do not. the problem is, I cannot give a definition of when those times are - you just feel it.

2 - Not strictly on topic but a variation should be just that - an occasional change. A ronde, say, done on beat is nice but if it's done on every first move or whatever it becomes tiresome IMO. Similar with variant footwork on a sugar push.

3 - My lassitude and sensitivity (IMO) to what the follower is doing is giving me some problems in WCS as I am not feeling the 'post' of some followers and giving a poor/indistinct lead on the 1 because I feel they are still playing. When I mention this they tend just to say 'lead confidently and I'll follow'

Oh, and Caro, I pretty much always know when you want to play - there's a letter 'y' in the day :whistle:

[Andy McGregor]

Am I the only person who's never heard of this? :confused: :blush:I've never heard of it either :confused:

[Raul]

It's a secret masonic sign - disclosed to the initiated only.

Strict selection, not for plebs.

[Andy McGregor]

It's a secret masonic sign - disclosed to the initiated only.And that sign needs a word...

[stairman]

It's a secret masonic sign - disclosed to the initiated only.

Strict selection, not for plebs.

Opps I will try to delete my memory:yum:

[Lory]

Strict selection, not for plebs.

Cheers for that :cheers:

:tears:

[johnnyman]

Freestyle is about experimentation. Sometimes you may attempt a particular move or pattern and it doesn't feel right, but that's OK because you can modify it the next time you dance.

Tatiana is about as experienced a dancer as you can get and she will often do things in the midst of a routine that you didn't expect. As long as you are attempting to lead her the way you have learned, you have no problems.

[Freudian Hips]

Bearing in mind the reason that this thread started, maybe it would be an idea to cut the lead a little bit of slack... no?

It is hard when you start dancing to know where you're going with the next move - literally. If someone starts to throw their own stuff in it can really screw with your mind. Having a chance to get used to that happening, and indeed invite it is a great way to learn how to bounce off of your partner. Not something that is taught in classes. I feel any lead who is exploring this avenue should be appluded and encouraged, not made to feel like a letcherous old pervert - even if I am :D :D :D

I explained the very specific kind of "space" that makes me feel very exposed and uncomfortable because I think that some leads may not realise that this can be interpreted in this way (given that at least Caro and I can feel like this and we are hardly shrinking violets). Fortunately it is not widely used and for that I am very grateful.

This thread seems to me to be about when the dance conversation doesn't work. There are obviously responsibilities for this on both sides. Certainly as I gain more partner dance experience, I am getting a little better at judging when to embellish only, when to risk a hijack and when simply to do what the lead leads. When it goes wrong, it is called antipation or sabotage. Most leads will laugh along with me and we make something come out of the "move" that neither of us expected. Lets cut the slack all round, I say!!

[Raul]

Cheers for that :cheers:

:tears:

I didn't know it either! :cheers:

But there again i ignore all signals in dance. If you can't do it without a signal don't do it.

I always get dirty looks in the intermediate lesson as i never do the signal for a neckbreak or the manspin.

[stairman]

I didn't know it either!

But there again i ignore all signals in dance. If you can't do it without a signal don't do it.

I always get dirty looks in the intermediate lesson as i never do the signal for a neckbreak or the manspin.

Not sure I use signals when dancing but use them when in lessons

Is there any need for signals if you are leading properly or are they there to give confidence to the inexperienced?

[jim]

"you know it's not what we're talking about here... Some guys indicate that they want their follow to 'do something' by holding them at arm's length, and applying pressure on their hand (usually via the thumb on the back of the hand) to keep them on the spot while they're waiting for it. " Caro.


How is it there's all this people who've never done this and I as a guy have had a women stop me! apply pressure to the back of my hand so I can 't move! and then start wiggling while I starred at her?:really:

- I'm not annoyed, I think she was trying to teach me somthing.:wink:

[Trouble]

Am I the only person who's never heard of this? :confused: :blush:

ive never heard of this before either. Complete news to me.

If i want to play, i play. I hijack and do what i want to do. :innocent: :innocent: If i feel the lead is not responding well to this, ie: allowing me the freedom to do it or looking a litlte lost, pissed off or generally not happy then i stop and follow his lead.

If leads want me to do something a little wiggly normally take both hands and hold them apart or as you say they allow you to cross over in front with a hand held high or on your shoulder to allow you to do something....

I dont think men that give you the option to play are being dirty or looking to get their kicks, it just gives them breathing space and a little fun. I would never be so bold as to think a male lead was wanting to watch me wiggle and strutt my stuff and possibly get his kicks but would always assume, they were playing and having fun. harmless fun. :D :flower:

[Whitebeard]

...... I always get dirty looks in the intermediate lesson as i never do the signal for a neckbreak or the manspin.


I'm not surprised - sabotaging the lesson no less. ;-)

Personally I see the extended arm in the manspin as a very natural style point which helps to generate motion for a sharp half-spin. And in the neckbreak you've got to get that hand of yours up there over the lady's shoulder anyway, so why not do that with a stylish flourish ?

[StokeBloke]

ive never heard of this before either. Complete news to me.Some follows don't need an invitation to be playful gal :wink:

I would never be so bold as to think a male lead was wanting to watch me wiggle and strutt my stuff and possibly get his kicks but would always assume, they were playing and having fun. harmless fun. :D :flower:
:yeah: * cough * :flower: :awe:

[dance cat]

The problem with this kind of "space" for me is that it can feel unequal. On the few occasions it has happened to me, I have felt very, very uncomfortable. Even to interpreting it as letchery. I don't dance to titillate my partner (as a rule :blush: ), so having the guy basically stop and apparently expect me to do something interesting when I didn't know this was coming, have no idea how long he is going to let me have this "opportunity" and he seems to be watching me to see what I can do, how sexy I can me - hey :confused: I don't know. It just feels horrible :(

On the other hand, I love a dance conversation, I love to play:clap: embellish :D pick up and idea and throw it back to the lead.:respect:

Yes this explains my feelings entirely-it's the panic feeling of thinking someone's put you on the spot and also that they're watching me do something for their amusement. I don't find it fun or flirtatious.
I have lots of fun dancing with someone not for them.

And thank you Lily for your very kind comments.:flower:

[StokeBloke]

I think I may give up leading and start to dance as a follow. It seems that you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. Selfish control freak or letcherous pervert..... them's the choices it would seem. Frikkin' charming :(

[Freudian Hips]

I think I may give up leading and start to dance as a follow. It seems that you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. Selfish control freak or letcherous pervert..... them's the choices it would seem. Frikkin' charming :(

I think you are misunderstanding us :flower:

I mentioned the interpretation of lechery because a couple of fairly new and non-lecherous dancers I danced with recently started doing this hands on thumb and waiting for me to do something move. I know full well they are not leches but still I felt extremely uncomfortable.

It is possible to be misunderstood on the dance floor and believe it or not, there are (if only a very few) creepy people on the dance floor.

Please don't throw the baby as well as the bath water. There is plenty of middle ground here which is safe, comfortable and gives us all room for playful fun.

[MartinHarper]

Tatian Mollian is my worst nightmare, but Sarah Van Drake no problem.

Land of 1000 dances and those examples - I assume we're talking about West Coast then?


I resort to basic moves because I can't control :sick: them and then they get bored so they sabaotage me:devil: . Then I get offended and black list them:angry: . And then they sit there wounder why I never ask them to dance:tears: . And I leave early because I'm trying to aviod them:( . Not pretty:blush: .

My immediate thought is that they're not sabotaging you because they're bored, but rather because you're dancing West Coast Swing, and in that dance followers are supposed to embrace and extend moves a lot. If this disturbs you, I'd suggest trying a dance where followers are "tamer", and staying away from higher level West Coast.


... whether they're doing some kinda of complicated competition, conversation swing-thing which I just haven't mastered yet.

I don't think anyone ever masters it. The first stage is to notice when the follower is doing something other than what you've lead, and you have that. The next stage is to smile when you notice.

[robd]

The next stage is to smile when you notice.

But when I do this. the follower always thinks I am taking the ****. They ask what they've done wrong and I say 'no, I'm smiling because you did something I liked' Maybe my smile is more of a smirk than a smile? :confused:

[Jamie]

Maybe my smile is more of a smirk than a smile? :confused:

... :whistle:

I just don't care and do what I want anyway.. :devil: As Val once said I hijack myself.. :rofl:

[drathzel]

... :whistle:

I just don't care and do what I want anyway.. :devil:

:yeah: me too!



As Val once said I hijack myself.. :rofl:

:rofl:

although you did say to me "dont give you more than one beat" I had to laugh cuz you are sooo right! if you give me more than one beat you better be prepared for a long wait or to be confuzzled!

[Martin]

I absolutely hate to be told (the thumbs on the back on my hand thing) to do it.
And no it's not contradictory men, it's all the difference between inviting and forcing...


I used to do this, I also used to hold a frame half way through a first move, to indicate to the lady to 'play'. :sick:

Times have moved on, and I now never do this, what I do is lighten the lead and allow play time if wanted, otherwise I firm up and go into another move. :nice:

Most of the time my lead is light enough for the girl to play, if I find she cannot or does not want to, a slightly firmer lead happens for the rest of the dance.