PDA

View Full Version : Things I like in a class (or dislike...)



Franck
11th-July-2002, 11:19 AM
Reading DavidBÕs words in another thread, I got thinking that this would make an interesting thread, so here it is...
Originally posted by DavidB
Things I like in classes:
- A routine that feels like it is social dancing - ie everything is natural and not forced.
- The teacher saying 'Here's that move to a count', and then going 'One, two, three...' etc.
- Being told how to lead it

Things I don't like in classes:
- Unleadable moves
- Moves that don't flow into each other
- The teacher saying 'Here's that move to a count', and then going 'Back, In, twist...' etc.

SwingSwingSwing
11th-July-2002, 12:45 PM
Here's a few of mine:-
Likes
Teachers doing a move exactly the same way each time when teaching it
Being close enough to the stage to see the teacher
Follows who follow
Having enough space to do the moves without bashing anyone.

Dislikes
Moves with "signals", First Move Jump , Hip Hop etc
Being right next to the speaker
Hearing "26 women on, 26 women off"
Getting two similar moves in a class and then getting confused!

SwingSwingSwing

Alexis Beuraud
15th-July-2002, 10:28 AM
Here is my opinion

Dislike
"Footwork" - it is impossible to lead feet moves.
hearing "let's move 2 men"

Like

Being told how to lead the moves.

There is something else I would like the teacher to talk about during the class : the dance floor is a common space, it should be shared. I see too often experienced dancers who do not pay attention to the other people, and use more space than they should. As result they often collide with other dancers when the dance floor is getting crowded.

I would like the teacher to say during the classes that :
- a dancer who does not care of other people is not a good dancer (even if he knows lots of moves).
- it is often great to do lots of moves when dancing. But it is sometimes great to stop moving for safety reasons.


Alexis

flashy
29th-July-2002, 04:14 PM
Totally disagree that you can't lead footwork. Only those who have never danced other styles would think that! Ceroc doesn't teach footwork (generally), which a reason why it is so easy to learn, and often described as 'the dance style for beginners'. This restricts it to complex upper body/arm movements and little smoothness at times, especially beginners.... unless you watch some of the better dancers/teachers.

Another thing that I HATE (whilst I'm on a roll) is the way that some leads pull in their partner back into beat, forbidding them any improvisation. Dancing is one of the most expressive things and we should just relax and LISTEN to the music, enjoy the experience, connect with our partner, and stop being so obsessive about sticking to the moves/beats. I often see women stopping on a break- that their partner missed- or gettin' into the groove on their own for a few beats. This is often totally spoiled by men who are desperate to complete their complex pretzel/catapult or whatever!

Agree about the dance space thing though..... It gets a bit dodgy at times, and it's generally the leads who control where the lady ends up. Sorry guys- we are to blame for that one!

DavidB
29th-July-2002, 05:37 PM
Originally posted by flashy
Totally disagree that you can't lead footwork. Only those who have never danced other styles would think that! Ceroc doesn't teach footwork (generally), which a reason why it is so easy to learn, and often described as 'the dance style for beginners'. This restricts it to complex upper body/arm movements and little smoothness at times, especially beginners.... unless you watch some of the better dancers/teachers.I'm not quite sure what you are disagreeing about. Then again I'm not 100% sure what Alexis was talking about either.

In Ceroc, you usually can't guarantee what foot the lady is standing on at the start of a move. That does limit what you can lead to normal Ceroc moves, where the lady has enough time to adjust her feet. In some other dance styles, you can lead particular moves because you know the lady has her weight on a particular foot. One problem comes when you try and mix moves from other styles into Ceroc (eg a Lindy Whip). You can make it very difficult for the lady unless you lead the end of the previous move with the next move in mind.

It is very difficult (and probably very uncomfortable) to get the lady to use particular footwork within a move. Personally I don't see the point - all I expect the lady's feet to do is keep under her body.

But some people describe some choreographed moves as footwork (again I'm thinking of some of the Lindy kick steps). These can be signalled, or if the lady is very good, visually followed. But I wouldn't say they could be 'led', and should not be taught in a normal intermediate class. If this is what Alexis meant, then I would agree with him.



Another thing that I HATE (whilst I'm on a roll) is the way that some leads pull in their partner back into beat, forbidding them any improvisation. Dancing is one of the most expressive things and we should just relax and LISTEN to the music, enjoy the experience, connect with our partner, and stop being so obsessive about sticking to the moves/beats. I often see women stopping on a break- that their partner missed- or gettin' into the groove on their own for a few beats. This is often totally spoiled by men who are desperate to complete their complex pretzel/catapult or whatever!Well - yes and no. It is the man's job to lead, and the lady's job to follow. If the man wants to lead the next step, the lady should be ready to follow, no matter what she is doing at the time. And if the lady continually does something contrary to what I have lead (or worse still, leads me) I wouldn't want to dance with her again.

But a good man will give the lady a chance to see if she wants to play. If she does, then he should give her plenty more opportunities. (If she doesn't, then don't embarrass her by continually expecting her to do something.) The key thing is the man gives her a 'window of opportunity' to play, and she can take it or not, depending how she feels. As soon as the lady says "I'm doing this - I don't care what you are doing", then she is leading, and the man might as well not be there.

Playing like this puts a lot of responsibility onto the lady. She has to think of something to do, rather than just embellishing what the man leads. She has to listen to the music (not just the beat). She has to be ready to go when the man starts leading again. And the man has to be able to do something, complementing without overshadowing the lady. (The corny description is it should be like a painting - the lady is the picture, the man is the frame).

This is also a lot harder in Ceroc than other styles of dancing (such as West Coast Swing, or Lindy).

David

Alexis Beuraud
30th-July-2002, 02:24 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
But some people describe some choreographed moves as footwork (again I'm thinking of some of the Lindy kick steps). These can be signalled, or if the lady is very good, visually followed. But I wouldn't say they could be 'led', and should not be taught in a normal intermediate class. If this is what Alexis meant, then I would agree with him.


I think you understood what I mean (I apologise my previous message was not clear).

Here is an example :
Start a catapult. Guys, do not offer the left hand when the lady is behind you, pull gently as you make a step back so that you are now side to side, man's left hand on lady's left hip, lady's right hand on man's right hip. Now kick right forwards, kick left, kick left backwards, take a step back ...

I hate when we are told to do "footwork" like this. It is impossible to lead kicks.
It led to a disaster each time I tried during the free style.
It is hard to lead "clicks" (with the fingers) as well, that is why I rarely do it.



Originally posted by flashy
Another thing that I HATE (whilst I'm on a roll) is the way that some leads pull in their partner back into beat, forbidding them any improvisation. Dancing is one of the most expressive things and we should just relax and LISTEN to the music, enjoy the experience, connect with our partner, and stop being so obsessive about sticking to the moves/beats. I often see women stopping on a break- that their partner missed- or gettin' into the groove on their own for a few beats. This is often totally spoiled by men who are desperate to complete their complex pretzel/catapult or whatever!


I am one of those who force the lady to move like I want. It is very useful when I am dancing with beginners and I receive compliments for that ("Oh you lead very well"). At the other hand I rarely leave the experienced ladies enough freedom for improvisation. I promise I will try to. But actually I do not really know how to do it. What is the best way to give a lady the opportunity of improvisation ?

Anyway I know I have to be careful when letting my partner some freedom. I noticed that some ladies are blind, they would make a few steps away and regularly collide with other people if I were not there. (Am I so dazzling that the ladies do not see the other dancers ? Or am I so disgusting that the ladies cannot refrain from fleeing away from me ?)

DavidB
30th-July-2002, 10:42 PM
Originally posted by Alexis Beuraud
But actually I do not really know how to do it. What is the best way to give a lady the opportunity of improvisation ?I first saw this in West Coast Swing several years ago. The idea is that when the man is not leading something, the lady has the opportunity to be creative. The problem with this in Ceroc is that there are lots of leads, and only small gaps in between. To do it successfully, you have to extend these gaps to give the lady a chance. Two places you can do it - in the middle of a move, or between moves.

The easiest move to lead is change of place (some people call it a travelling return). Lead it slow and smooth, and leave your hand in the air for a beat longer. Don't crank the lady into a turn - just be pretty neutral with your hand. A beginner lady will just do two slow turns. A more advanced lady might realise that you are not leading anything, and take the opportunity to do something herself. If she does, then give her a few beats to play. When you want her to stop, just finish off the turn, and carry on leading.

You can theoretically do this with any move, but it is far more effective with simple moves.

Between moves is harder in Ceroc, simply because there is no natural break between moves (as there is in WCS). The ladies will always want to step in as soon as they feel any sort of pull on the hand, even if the man only gave that pull to stop her moving further away. You have to slow the lady down as she steps away, taking an extra beat or two if you want. Don't lead her back in - gently block her if she tries.

Other things you can change are the handholds. I sometimes switch to a very loose fingertip hold - it gives the lady a hint that I can't lead anything strongly until I switch back.

Try with someone you have seen improvising, or who you know does Lindy or WCS. Don't try it with a beginner, or someone you know who doesn't like it. And make sure the lady knows you can lead properly in the first place. If the lady suddenly feels no lead, she will think "Oh no - not another man who can't dance!"

David

jiveoholic
31st-July-2002, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by Alex
Here is an example :
Start a catapult. Guys, do not offer the left hand when the lady is behind you, pull gently as you make a step back so that you are now side to side, man's left hand on lady's left hip, lady's right hand on man's right hip. Now kick right forwards, kick left, kick left backwards, take a step back ...

I hate when we are told to do "footwork" like this. It is impossible to lead kicks.

Its really quite simple to lead this...
..
..
..
..
I just shout "catapult clicks"!!!

(admittadly, I would have to have practiced the move with the same lady before). I do enjoy having a small set of "practiced moves". They are a challenge, fun to do it if moves feel flat on a particular night and I have found ladies that love this sort of thing.

Really they are just like the "first move columbian" but "unknown"...but then again who can do a first move Columbian successfully - as I know at least 3 variations of stepping?

DavidB
31st-July-2002, 08:05 PM
Originally posted by jiveoholic

Really they are just like the "first move columbian" but "unknown"...but then again who can do a first move Columbian successfully.....? I was at a dance recently in Brighton when someone (whom I have never danced with before) asked me for a dance and half way through the dance whispered the word "Columbian" to me and then proceeded to execute a series of grape-vine type steps. I was not able to follow him, firstly, because he DID NOT LEAD those steps, and secondly, because I had no idea what a "Columbian" is. :confused: :what:

Makes me wonder - do Ceroc/Modern Jive teachers who teach fairly complicated moves do so by association with names, in the hope that it obviates the need to teach proper lead/follow technique? When I eventually found out what a "Columbian" is, I realised that it is in fact entirely leadable, if done properly. Very similar moves are used in other forms of dance eg. Hustle and ballroom jive where they are LEAD, and NOT by the man whispering to his lady "Columbian"!!! :sad:

LilyB

jiveoholic
1st-August-2002, 07:37 AM
Originally posted by LilyB
I was at a dance recently in Brighton when someone (whom I have never danced with before) asked me for a dance and half way through the dance whispered the word "Columbian" to me and then proceeded to execute a series of grape-vine type steps. I was not able to follow him, firstly, because he DID NOT LEAD those steps, and secondly, because I had no idea what a "Columbian" is. :confused: :what:

Makes me wonder - do Ceroc/Modern Jive teachers who teach fairly complicated moves do so by association with names, in the hope that it obviates the need to teach proper lead/follow technique? When I eventually found out what a "Columbian" is, I realised that it is in fact entirely leadable, if done properly. Very similar moves are used in other forms of dance eg. Hustle and ballroom jive where they are LEAD, and NOT by the man whispering to his lady "Columbian"!!! :sad:

LilyB

Thinking about it, when I shout "Columbian", I am really shouting "Columbian?", ie if she looks blank, I do not do it, but perhaps talk about it at the end of the dance. Sometimes I even ask whether the lady knows the columbian a move or two in advance.

Whilst I would agree that an expert dancer with an expert following (expert for jive that is) can lead jive moves with steps, this is not the norm where I come from. Having been to workshops and the like, I find "steppy" moves fit into two categories

1. Those that are part of the jive vocabluary and are regularly taught (usually with groans!), such as First move clicks, columbian, triple step etc. For most jivers they are impossible until learned and even then.....

2. Those that are newly choreographed, unknown, look good, full of rock-steps, slides, jumps etc and there is not a hope in a million years of finding someone that had been to the workshop let alone remembered the move. I do not learn these any more.

Perhaps I might set up a vote thingy to find out whether other ladies like to be given a clue as to standard footy moves that may arise. (Clearly you would rather be just well lead). After all, no one should be trying to catch the lady out, and it may make the move more enjoyable.

Thinking about it, I often should half-windmill and I KNOW many ladies that appreciate this as it helps them spin on the spot and make it more enjoyable. Yes - I'm sure that someone is now going to tell me that the lead for this is different from a catapult! It is a bit suble though.

flashy
1st-August-2002, 09:41 AM
'David B' - You are clearly the type of ceroccer that I'm talking about...... Maybe we can re-visit this in a few years!

The lead/follow dynamic is far more complex than you realise.

DavidB
1st-August-2002, 10:31 AM
Just in case anyone tries to lead me into a Columbian, the previous post was from my wife (LilyB).

Anyone who shouts 'Columbian' in my ear would get a very blank look, and possibly a referral to Narcotics Anonymous.

David

DavidB
1st-August-2002, 12:07 PM
Originally posted by flashy
'David B' - You are clearly the type of ceroccer that I'm talking about...... Maybe we can re-visit this in a few years!

The lead/follow dynamic is far more complex than you realise. Leading and following is far more complex than anyone realises. Every time I think I've learned something else about leading, I find it opens up a whole new area to explore. It is also different depending on the dance you do - this is what I currently have most problems with.

It is often described as a conversation. It is not just one way (ie the leader telling the follower what to do). The follower can have a lot of input as long as the leader lets her. Like any conversation, it does not work if both people are talking at the same time. If the leader is leading something, the follower must follow. It is one of the 3 basic rules of any partner dance. (The others are keeping in time with the music, and the most important one is having fun.)

Where West Coast Swing and Lindy have developed partner dancing is a realisation that the follower can do more than follow. She is more than capable of being creative herself, and almost certainly looks better doing it. But the leader has to give her a chance - he has to let her speak in the conversation.

One term that was used a few years ago was 'hijacking' the lead - where the follower would literally take over the lead and do whatever she wanted. This fell out of favour, because the man's only job in the dance is to lead. If you take that away, you might as well dance by yourself. The emphasis now is for the man to give the lady a chance to do something, and for the lady to improvise when given the chance. The lady can indicate when she has finished, or the man can indicate that he wants to start leading again.

All that applies to WCS, but we should be talking about Ceroc. I very rarely see men in Ceroc giving the ladies a chance to do anything, and consequently see little improvisation by the ladies. It is definitely harder to do in Ceroc - I was trying last night with limited success.

From re-reading your original post, you seem to say that the ladies should be encouraged to ignore the man and hijack the lead. I know at the moment I wouldn't like that, but I would be interested in why you suggest it. I can always be encouraged to change my mind.

I'd also be interested what the ladies think about any of this.

David

Graham
1st-August-2002, 01:02 PM
Those who know me will be aware that I am not the world's best dancer, but I thought I'd better be explicit for those of you who are remote or don't know who I am.

Without being familiar with WCS/Lindy, what David is saying makes a lot of sense to me. I have danced with a couple of really good followers who have been able to express themselves by subtly controlling the pace - for example slowing down a move into 2/3 beats instead of 1, or putting in a break. This then gives them the opportunity to put in extra "style" components. Obviously there is also always the possibility of doing double/triple spins. All of these I can cope with, and indeed really enjoy, provided that there is really good "empathy" with my partner. What I mean by this is:

1. I need to be able to tell the difference between when she is merely following and when she is suggesting a variation. I can then go along with the variation provided I wasn't already committed to something else. For me personally, this seems to involve the follower varying the "tension" in our hand/arm hold, so it only works if the follower doesn't normally pull.

2. I need to be able to tell when she's finished. The easiest way is by practice, so if she starts off with small variations I can pick up her "style", and gradually she can build up to more elaborate improvisations. Also with more practice I'll get more confident and give her more opportunities to do things.

As I said at the beginning, I'm not a great dancer, so my comments are only based on a handful of occasions where I've thought this was working well.

SpinDoctor
3rd-August-2002, 07:52 PM
Originally posted by Alexis Beuraud

I think you understood what I mean (I apologise my previous message was not clear).

Here is an example :
[...]...

That's a Lindy move. Personally, I thoroughly dislike them, but I'll usually have a bash, rather than sit the [rest of the] lesson out. No way I'll ever attempt it in freestyle though.

I hate when we are told to do "footwork" like this. It is impossible to lead kicks.

I sympathise, but I disagree. Either you got it or you ain't. I ain't, but I've seen guys who have.

[..]

I am one of those who force the lady to move like I want. It is very useful when I am dancing with beginners and I receive compliments for that ("Oh you lead very well").

Ideally, you should adapt to each individual partner. For instance, if a lady likes to do double 'American' spins, you have to learn to anticipate and allow for them.

At the other hand I rarely leave the experienced ladies enough freedom for improvisation. I promise I will try to. But actually I do not really know how to do it. What is the best way to give a lady the opportunity of improvisation ?

Try this simple variation on a first move, but not with a complete beginner:
Begin as a first move, but as you turn her out, turn yourself 180 degrees clockwise (to face her) and change to a flat hand. Do a push-spin immediately, and take a small step back (spin if you can manage it). She's now 2 short steps away from you, and probably puzzled. Make eye contact, shimmy, and beckon her forward. Where it goes next is as much up to her as you, but a slow comb makes it a sexy set.

eastmanjohn
19th-August-2002, 02:35 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
I'm not quite sure what you are disagreeing about. Then again I'm not 100% sure what Alexis was talking about either.

In Ceroc, you usually can't guarantee what foot the lady is standing on at the start of a move. That does limit what you can lead to normal Ceroc moves, where the lady has enough time to adjust her feet. In some other dance styles, you can lead particular moves because you know the lady has her weight on a particular foot. One problem comes when you try and mix moves from other styles into Ceroc (eg a Lindy Whip). You can make it very difficult for the lady unless you lead the end of the previous move with the next move in mind.

It is very difficult (and probably very uncomfortable) to get the lady to use particular footwork within a move. Personally I don't see the point - all I expect the lady's feet to do is keep under her body.

David

There are actually some basic rules that are very easy to follow and the lead will always know which foot the lady has her weight on. It just happens that most ceroc teachers choose not to teach it. I find I can teachthe basic footwork right from the start for a beginner and still maintain the fun and informality of a ceroc class. With the basic set of footwork under your belt the rest becomes even easier.

DavidB
19th-August-2002, 02:54 PM
Originally posted by eastmanjohn
There are actually some basic rules that are very easy to follow and the lead will always know which foot the lady has her weight on.I'm not sure if you mean a way to get the lady onto a particular foot, or footwork to use within standard moves. Can you give an example?

David

eastmanjohn
19th-August-2002, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
I'm not sure if you mean a way to get the lady onto a particular foot, or footwork to use within standard moves. Can you give an example?

David

What I mean is footwork to use with standard moves and some basic rules about order of linking moves.

Basically this goes back to some basics, ie if the lady turns to the left she turns on the left foot and finishes by stepping back on the left foot. This is a basic return. She is then ready to go into a standard move (say the first move).

If she turns to the right she turns on her right foot and finishes by stepping back on the right foot. At this point she is ready to do the return OR she may be led into one of the moves which replaces a return (sway, catapult, windmill, basket, lady spin, comb, etc etc).

The rules sound complicated when written down but they make perfect sense when dancing and mean that the dance always flows well, never stutters and always feels natural.

I guess ceroc teachers think it is too much to expect people to be taught some theory AND enjoy themselves at the same time!!! Not sure this is true.

How does this fit in with your experience? Are you aware of these basic rules? If not-ask yourself this. Do you ever do a windmill and follow it with a return? Do you ever do a return after a wurlitzer? Would you do a return before leading a basket? Try it on the dancefloor and see which feels best?

John Eastman

Lou
19th-August-2002, 04:53 PM
How nice to see a neighbour here! :grin:

I know exactly what you mean about the footwork, though. My pet hate is being lead into a sway after a return, when I'm back on my left. And there are certainly people guilty of that in our neck of the woods. But then, I think you taught me when I was a wee lass.... :wink:

Franck
19th-August-2002, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by eastmanjohn
What I mean is footwork to use with standard moves and some basic rules about order of linking moves.

/SNIP useful points/

I guess ceroc teachers think it is too much to expect people to be taught some theory AND enjoy themselves at the same time!!! Not sure this is true.Hi John,

Firstly, welcome to the Forum.
You make a few interesting points about footwork and teaching it to Beginners and the basic rules you mention do make sense.
However, I disagree with your assumptions on why those points are usually not taught.
Modern Jive was born as a reaction to 'footwork intensive' dances. The idea was to get people to learn to dance in a more natural way, getting them to walk through the moves rather than tell them to lift left foot, move it forward 7 inches, put it down, transfer weight, pick up right foot etc...
The problem is that as soon as you mention footwork to people, they start looking at their feet and they start moving more ackwardly, losing any natural ability they might have had to start with. Some people will survive this and eventually will become brilliant dancers, but the majority will give up within a few weeks!
My views, is not that people would not have fun learning footwork (after all they do at workshops), but that we (as teachers) should trust people more, and as a result, give more confidence to our dancers that they have a natural way of moving, and that it looks fine.
The main problem we face is not teaching people to dance well, but giving them a confidence and passion for dancing!
This approach, will give everyone in your class a chance to dance and enjoy themselves.
After they have learnt the basics of leading / following and dancing, some people (but not all) might want to learn different ways of moving their feet, and they usually book a workshop or try to emulate someone else they have seen on the dance floor.

To use the examples you mention above, while turning on your left foot when travelling anti-clockwise is the most common (natural?) it is not by any means the only way, so to get back to the original point, you cannot predict what foot your partner will be on (unless you always dance with the same partner), and in any case, it should not affect your lead in any significant way.

Phew, long post... Sorry. :nice:

Franck.

DavidB
19th-August-2002, 05:36 PM
I see what you mean. Personally I would say it has less to do with footwork, and more to do with the way the lady is 'prepped'.

'Prepping' means preparing the lady to turn. It is difficult to turn from a standing start. It is a lot easier to wind up slightly the other way first, and then unwind into the turn. This wind-up, or twist, or torque, is called the 'prep'.

In Jive virtually every lady overturns every spin or turn. This naturally preps her to turn the other way. Thats why a return feels right after a first move - it is the way the lady's body wants to turn.

If you want to do something different to this (like a sway after a return) then you have to adjust something in either the lead or your positioning to prep the lady again. If you try to force her, it just won't feel comfortable. I've done too many classes where the sequence taught has had this problem.

My main reason for thinking about her body rather than her feet is because so many ladies move both feet in each step. Many of the better ladies will move their feet really quickly to give themselves a chance to do something interesting. Some will even do something that preps them to turn the other way. If I can see and feel what her body is doing, I have a chance of getting the next step right.

It doesn't really matter if we think about her feet or her body, as long as what we lead feels comfortable. And it helps if we can figure it out from the feedback in our hands, rather than staring at her body or her feet!

David

DavidB
19th-August-2002, 05:40 PM
Originally posted by Franck
The problem is that as soon as you mention footwork to people, they start looking at their feet and they start moving more ackwardly, losing any natural ability they might have had to start with. Franck - one big exception to this is if you teach a guest class at a line dancing club. They are so used to learning footwork that they seem to feel lost without it. I saw someone teach an entire West Coast Swing class at a Line Dancing club by doing all the footwork first, and then partnering up at the end! And it worked.

eastmanjohn
19th-August-2002, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by Franck

Modern Jive was born as a reaction to 'footwork intensive' dances. The idea was to get people to learn to dance in a more natural way, getting them to walk through the moves rather than tell them to lift left foot, move it forward 7 inches, put it down, transfer weight, pick up right foot etc...

To use the examples you mention above, while turning on your left foot when travelling anti-clockwise is the most common (natural?) it is not by any means the only way, so to get back to the original point, you cannot predict what foot your partner will be on (unless you always dance with the same partner), and in any case, it should not affect your lead in any significant way.

Franck.

Hi,

Nice to get a pasionate response from a posting, and I agree with you. The way you suggest teaching footwork would of course be too pedantic, and that's not what we do, of course. But letting people know, with short accurate teaching points, the easiest and most natural way to do things will give those who wish to listen enough to be going with. In any case, most people learn from observing, and not so much from the verbal instruction.

Therefore, I would also say that the teacher should be consistent in what they are doing and that it relates to what they give as verbal instruction.

I have seen many a time where the lady on stage does her footwork in a completely different way each time, and often it doesn't relate to what has been given as a verbal direction. This can lead to confusion and a lack of confidence in the teacher.

However, your main point is correct. Modern Jive works because it is accessible to the majority of people. Too much attention to detail in a beginners class can have the danger of removing the fun element.

Look forward to more discussion on these matters.

Cheers

John

jiveoholic
19th-August-2002, 05:59 PM
John and I have had a few emails about lady's feet and where they should be. I started watching the best (not necessarily Leroc!) on videos of competitions and discovered the rules that he stated about which feet to turn on etc.

I have learned my method of using my feet and I now find that I cannot change!

I feel like I am the equivalent of a two-finger typist. It was easy to start with and uncomplicated but now it is too much trouble to unlearn bad habits and then have the potential to progress.

However I also agree with Frank, that many do not wish to do spins perfectly and stepping on each half beat and so turning and returning on the same foot occurs - but then this is easier as one used oned feet as a metronome. This helps one learn the keep the beat. This is something that many dancers find difficult especially at the beginning.

One is therefore left with a difficult choice, to either teach footwork and loose all but the dancers who really want to progress, or to leave it up to the individual to learn and then they may need to unlearn it.

I find jive very "Darwinian"! Tere are lots of variations. Some dances work with a lady, some do not. I like this variety.

Personally, I think that jive is being marketted to those who would not normally go dancing and the formula of teaching and dancing on the same night is great. Technical things should come from extra workshops so as not to bore the normal punter!

eastmanjohn
19th-August-2002, 06:02 PM
Originally posted by Lou
How nice to see a neighbour here! :grin:

I know exactly what you mean about the footwork, though. My pet hate is being lead into a sway after a return, when I'm back on my left. And there are certainly people guilty of that in our neck of the woods. But then, I think you taught me when I was a wee lass.... :wink:

Nice to get some solidarity from a Bristol lass. When did you start coming to our classes? Where do you dance now? Come and say hi if you come to any of our classes or monthly dances. Check out www.cliftonleroc.co.uk for details of what we're up to.

See you soon
John

eastmanjohn
19th-August-2002, 06:11 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
I see what you mean. Personally I would say it has less to do with footwork, and more to do with the way the lady is 'prepped'.

'Prepping' means preparing the lady to turn. It is difficult to turn from a standing start. It is a lot easier to wind up slightly the other way first, and then unwind into the turn. This wind-up, or twist, or torque, is called the 'prep'.

In Jive virtually every lady overturns every spin or turn. This naturally preps her to turn the other way. Thats why a return feels right after a first move - it is the way the lady's body wants to turn.

It doesn't really matter if we think about her feet or her body, as long as what we lead feels comfortable. And it helps if we can figure it out from the feedback in our hands, rather than staring at her body or her feet!

David

Everything you say is correct, and it all falls into place with an understanding of the footwork. The 'rules' that we use are unfailing in ensuring the flow of the dance, and they are all to do with 'prepping'. They way you prepare the lady for a cataplut is subtly different to the way she is prepared for a return. There is a difference between whether she is going to travel or turn on her next step.

I am taking things down to their bare bones which is what I have to understand as a teacher. What I am saying here is way more detail than I would give in a beginners class. The teacher should normally know more than the pupil has to.

I think it's good to have these discussions.

Cheers
John

Gus
19th-August-2002, 06:26 PM
Originally posted by eastmanjohn


Everything you say is correct, and it all falls into place with an understanding of the footwork.

Interesting debate with good points being made througout ... so thought I bring the conversation down to my level and keep it simple.

Couple of points;

1) when I was originaly taught martial arts one instructor put a lot of emphasis on the footwork of the basics ... the only problem wa sthat as you become more advanced you had to unleran everything to adapt. The focus needs to be on BALANCE, not footwork .... from this the student can devlop their own style and move in the dynamic way that their body best accomodates

2) Modrn Jive is supposed to be fun. We are not trying to turn out expert dancers! We are trying to make accesible to the masses ... and concentration on technique early on confuses. That type of thing should be taught in workshops ... but I'm not saying NO footwork. Even for basic moves you need some guidenace but common sense and balance tends to encourage the dancers to step correctly.

Re arguments about teaching styles .... I'm sorry to say that I've seen many organisations teaching models and the most succesfull I've seen is the Ceroc model .... even people vehemently opposed to the Ceroc business agree on that. Its growing success has proiven that ... and even our local LeRoc teacher has modified his closed 1 hour class format to use the Ceroc format. I'm not saying that technically it is the best, but it is certainly readily taken on my begineers and gives the dancers a good basis to progress.

jiveoholic
19th-August-2002, 06:34 PM
I agree with limiting technique teaching to the masses, but one thing that I would like to hear a jive teacher say is:

"ladies try to turn clockwise on your right and anticlockwise on your left foot - it isn't mandatory, but you will come to learn that it flows better that way".

It a bit like suggesting ladies sway & basket back on their right foot which then provides a nice twist for the man.

eastmanjohn
19th-August-2002, 07:11 PM
Originally posted by jiveoholic
I agree with limiting technique teaching to the masses, but one thing that I would like to hear a jive teacher say is:

"ladies try to turn clockwise on your right and anticlockwise on your left foot - it isn't mandatory, but you will come to learn that it flows better that way".

It a bit like suggesting ladies sway & basket back on their right foot which then provides a nice twist for the man.

Fantastic, you almost quote my co-instructor word for word. That is exactly the tack that we take in beginners.

Heather
19th-August-2002, 09:36 PM
I have been reading through this thread and although it is all very interesting , I have to say that Gus hits the nail on the head when he says'Modern jive is supposed to be fun'.
Jiveaholic also makes a fair comment when he says'Technical things should come from extra workshops so as not to bore the normal punter'.
People come along to Ceroc for a variety of reasons :-
- its fun!!!
- it's good exercise.
- it's a great way to get out and meet new people.
- they enjoy dancing for it's own sake
- they want to try something new.
- their friends have dragged them along (they keep coming because its fun)
- its easy to learn and they feel they can 'dance' in a short space of time
Most of the people who are interested in the real technicalities are the ones who take it (and themselves) seriously.
Quite frankly, the most important thing on my list is the FUN part, and judging by the people who contribute to the other threads, they like the fun element too.
Getting too bogged down with technical detail is off putting for a lot of people.
I'm not saying that footwork etc is unimportant and that it should not be taught - I have been learning WCS and that is mostly footwork, but please remember that people dance because it makes them feel good, it gives them a natural high, it gives them self confidence. Let's not knock all that by analysing every body movement, and the momentum of a double spin!!!
DavidB, I don't doubt for a moment that you are a lovely dancer, but to be quite honest I would probably feel extremely intimidated by you, I'd feel that during a dance you would be analysing and assessing my every step and body movement and that would inhibit me and make me very nervous.
I dance because I like it, I have a laugh and have fun- the day when I began to worry whether I spun on my left foot or my right would be the day I stopped .

Sandy
19th-August-2002, 11:16 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
I see what you mean. Personally I would say it has less to do with footwork, and more to do with the way the lady is 'prepped'.

David

The last time I was 'prepped' was just before I gave birth to my twins!! Sorry to be flippant but the word freaks me out!

I agree with Heather, I love to come to Ceroc to dance and have fun and definitely don't want to get anxious about what my feet are doing. I'm sure there's a place for thinking about feet but I do think it would scare a lot of folk off if it became a major part of a lesson.

PS - not trying to get at anyone, just speaking my very non technical thoughts!

:sorry

Cheers

Sandy

Franck
20th-August-2002, 12:45 AM
Originally posted by Heather
I have been reading through this thread and although it is all very interesting , I have to say that Gus hits the nail on the head when he says'Modern jive is supposed to be fun'.
/SNIP/
Getting too bogged down with technical detail is off putting for a lot of people.You are right Heather, let's keep the dance floor a fun / relaxed zone but this thread is specifically aimed at 'Modern Jive' teachers, ie we are looking at how we can improve the standards of our classes to eventually help all nights improve.
John has been teaching for 10 years, same as I have, and I am very interested to hear his views. The debate is worth having as I am sure we will all learn a lot from the discussion, and I would bet for example that a few teachers (Ceroc or otherwise) will try mentionning turn left on your left foot or right on your right foot after reading it here... :nice:

Our job as teachers is to have those boring discussions so that we can pass on the distilled knowledge to our class.
A successful teacher will pass on the technical / hard footwork but his class will not notice they have learnt something hard, he/she will make it fun and seem easy, possibly making a bad joke in the process to relieve any tension etc... :wink:

Franck.

Franck
20th-August-2002, 12:55 AM
Originally posted by eastmanjohn
Nice to get a pasionate response from a posting, and I agree with you. The way you suggest teaching footwork would of course be too pedantic, and that's not what we do, of course. But letting people know, with short accurate teaching points, the easiest and most natural way to do things will give those who wish to listen enough to be going with. In any case, most people learn from observing, and not so much from the verbal instruction.You are welcome, and I really enjoy talking about these things (ie the philosophy behind modern jive etc...).
Even though my example was over the top, this is the way footwork teaching often sounds to a Beginner, and often you would be as well speaking Japanese!:what:
The crucial point in your quote above is the 'short accurate' bit. This is where an experienced teacher with a good understanding and passion for his subject will shine through, these teachers can be found in all forms of Modern Jive, Ceroc or otherwise, and this is great news, the more the better. :cheers:

Franck.

John S
20th-August-2002, 03:22 AM
Originally posted by Franck
possibly making a bad joke in the process to relieve any tension etc... :wink:

Franck.

A bad joke? From Franck? Surely not!!!!

eastmanjohn
20th-August-2002, 08:36 AM
Originally posted by Sandy


I agree with Heather, I love to come to Ceroc to dance and have fun and definitely don't want to get anxious about what my feet are doing. I'm sure there's a place for thinking about feet but I do think it would scare a lot of folk off if it became a major part of a lesson.

PS - not trying to get at anyone, just speaking my very non technical thoughts!



I guess it's interesting that it is the guys who are talking technical. In my experience this is the case, that men want to understand how and why things work as they are having to lead. In order to make it work better they feel a need to understand the technical bit.

The other people who get technical are teachers, and that is a good thing as they, more than anyone, should understand that side of things. This doesn't mean that they have to dwell on it in classes, just that they are aware of it and can help those who want to know.

If I am to help someone who comes up and says they have trouble spinning I can't really say "Don't worry about it, just go and enjoy yourself!". What they want is some technical advice to make it easier.

In summary. There are techniques which make dancing easier. Some people just get it naturally, others need to learn it. We are not all the same.

Cheers

John

Lou
20th-August-2002, 09:04 AM
What I enjoy most about this board are the little, subtle, differences between both our forms of Modern Jive. I admit to having never attended a Ceroc class, however I'm trying to get to the Bath one just because my curiosity has been piqued! There are many things that I've taken for granted, this footwork thread being one, that I had no idea could be done differently.

John - I actually started learning about 8ish years ago, at Elmgrove. I did sometimes visit the class at the bottom of Whiteladies - was that you? I then moved from Clifton to Chipping Sodbury, so I started being a regular at Sherif's class at The George, and then at Yate. I very occasionally go to St Bon's, but I hate the "moi-moi" attitude of some of the dancers there which puts me off being a regular. I admit, though, to having taken it a bit easier these last 4 years since I met my husband (as he doesn't dance).

I think, when I was first learning, there was more of a focus on footwork than there is now, even in Leroc. For example. whilst dancing a Basket, we were taught a wee tiny step on the inner foot, before going back on the outer for beat 3 (it was counted 1,2, and 3, 4. I actually like that variation, because it flows better - even though it was tricky to learn. However, it seems that today the little step is missed out.

I agree with the Ceroccers here that footwork is tricky for beginners to grasp. I often dance Man for beginners, and quite often I see the new ladies dither over which foot they should go back on. But, and I think it was jiveoholic who said it earlier, it's a bit like learning to type - it's OK to be able to type with 2 fingers (after all, I do & I've worked in IT for far too many years), but I'm glad I learnt proper footwork, as I like the sense of balance it gives me.

Franck
20th-August-2002, 10:38 AM
Originally posted by John S
A bad joke? From Franck? Surely not!!!! I suspect they actually are good jokes, until I tell them that is...
But thanks anyway for bringing it up John!:tears:

Franck.

Franck
20th-August-2002, 10:47 AM
Originally posted by Lou
What I enjoy most about this board are the little, subtle, differences between both our forms of Modern Jive. I admit to having never attended a Ceroc class, however I'm trying to get to the Bath one just because my curiosity has been piqued! There are many things that I've taken for granted, this footwork thread being one, that I had no idea could be done differently. Excellent news, and I am so glad the Forum is growing that way, with a good mix of people and a wide range of experiences... We all pretty much take a lot for granted, and the differences do not stop at Ceroc vs Leroc, but there are huge variations between individual teachers as well, often your first teacher will be the one you will compare all others to!
Ceroc do try very hard to get all teachers to the same standard, with auditions, and a series of compulsory courses spread over 12/18 months plus yearly updates, ensuring a more consistent level of teaching across the UK, but despite that, individual personalities, and experience still make a difference.
Originally posted by Lou
I agree with the Cerocers here that footwork is tricky for beginners to grasp. I often dance Man for beginners, and quite often I see the new ladies dither over which foot they should go back on. But, and I think it was jiveoholic who said it earlier, it's a bit like learning to type - it's OK to be able to type with 2 fingers (after all, I do & I've worked in IT for far too many years), but I'm glad I learnt proper footwork, as I like the sense of balance it gives me. Well it is ok to type with 2 fingers if all you want to do is the odd email / letter and a bit of web browsing, but if you are going to post regularly here ;) , then touch typing is the way to go, it is much quicker... But as with dancing, most people do not need the speed and would not have the commitment to learn...

First give people passion and then feed it with extra style and technique... :nice:

Franck.

Gus
20th-August-2002, 11:31 AM
Originally posted by Franck
First give people passion and then feed it with extra style and technique... :nice:

Franck. Well said!

A lot of the debate comes back to what you are trying to achieve. On the face of it anyone of the participants could say you are right but so am I!

I'd say to Lou, echoing Franck's words, don't take one teacher from any association as being representative of the whole association. Despite ceroc's rigorous training, teachers do develop their own style which tends to be in response to the class they are teaching. I could teach the same moves at , say Nantwich and Stafford clubs but because of the standard and style of the classes I would vary the class slightly to suit, maybe putting more style points in, focusing on the footwork (or lack of it).

I've been very fortunate to have seen a large number of teachers from all the major associations (e.g. Ceroc, Blitz, SwingRoc, SwingJive, Leroc) and a whole host of independants. On the whole the teaching standard has varied but the basic principles of focusing on hand movement and body position has been fairly consistent, even for the LeRoc teachers I've seen. Like dance style itself, who is best depends on your personal style. for many people Viktor and Lydia are without peer but I've never heard them go into details about footwork.

Interestingly enough, when I was teaching out in New Zealand I got the chance to see their style of teaching. They have beginner, intermediate and advanced in their class structure ... and believe me the advanced was exactly that! But they tend to teach more by example ... far less reliance of detailed description of turns and footwork ... rather greater emphasis on demonstrating the move ... the difference being that ALL the students paid close attention ... surely a rarity for a UK class ... or am I being too cynical?

So ... the point is?? Well, personally, I think that less is more in the class situation. What little footwork you need to understand comes from dancing the moves rather than by rote instruction that just gets lost amid the rest of the instructions. Style points come out of dancing with experienced partners and workshops ... and thats a model that we've used very succesfuly for many years. Those that want to progress technically do the workshops and the vast majority just get with the groove and enjoy. Sounds pretty good to me.

PS ... been dancing for 6 years, teaching for 3 and never had any real footwork coaching even during my foray into Lindy Hop ....

Lou
20th-August-2002, 01:27 PM
Originally posted by Gus

I'd say to Lou, echoing Franck's words, don't take one teacher from any association as being representative of the whole association.

Quite true! Point taken! :nice: I just got the impression from here that CEROCcers (in general terms, of course) were less stringent footwork-wise than we LeRoccers (in general terms). You guys like it your way, I like it ours. Not a problem! Vive la difference! :wink: Group hug?! :yum:

'Tis true about the various teachers techniques. The teacher who taught me the most was a lady called Cathy, who wasn't strictly a LeRoc teacher. Her methods were unconventional, but I improved so much in a year with her. (John - we had a class we ran onsite at HP). She concentrated on technique far more than in a regular class, but then this could be attributed to the smaller class size and the fact she was a ballroom teacher by trade.

Gus
20th-August-2002, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by Lou
She concentrated on technique far more than in a regular class, but then this could be attributed to the smaller class size and the fact she was a ballroom teacher by trade.

Think you've hit the nail on the head. Modern Jive is a freer form of dance than most partner dances .. hence it tends to be taught is a less prescriptive way UNLESS the teacher is from a more formal dance background. You an usually spot a ceroc teacher that used to teach 'proper' dance, tends to be a differnt emphasis.

The local LeRoc teacher in our area is primarliy a ballroom teacher ... hence the style of his Modern Jive feels more like a ballroom lesson to me. I'm a typical club dancer who got converted to pertner dancing ... so my personal 'weakness' is for moves where dancers can break out and do their own think or start bluesing with the beat ... not official ceroc but what the heck. Have to stress though, that for beginners always play it straight down the line.

DavidB
20th-August-2002, 06:09 PM
Originally posted by Heather
DavidB, ... I would probably feel extremely intimidated by you, I'd feel that during a dance you would be analysing and assessing my every step and body movement and that would inhibit me and make me very nervous. Sorry Heather - I re-read my post, and I apologise if it sounded like I'm constantly analysing what the lady is doing.

I don't care what your feet are doing (as long as they are not aimed at me).

I don't care what your body is doing, or how you are doing it, as long as you are enjoying yourself and not hurting me.

I do care what your body can do next, because:
- you will not like it if I lead something uncomfortable.
- I'm lazy, and don't like forcing anything
- I can quite easily hurt you or myself.

Having said that, I don't get a computer out and work out what angle the lady is facing, where her hand is, where her weight is, how much tension there is in her arm etc, to decide which move can go next. I only do what feels right. I'd never really thought what that feeling came from until John started talking about footwork, and I know I didn't completely agree.

I do take my dancing seriously. I have no desire to teach, or even compete or do cabarets anymore. What I enjoy most is freestyle. Like most men I can't move, spin or even walk as well as the ladies, and I don't like making a fool of myself. All I can do in a dance is lead, and even that doesn't come naturally to me. In London there are some men that the ladies actively avoid, and others that never get chance to leave the floor. I'm not in either group, but I know which one I want to be in.

I do hope you are not too intimidated to dance with me - I was looking forward to a good WCS if I ever make it to Scotland again.

David

Gus
21st-August-2002, 02:04 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
I have no desire to teach, or even compete or do cabarets anymore. i have to say its a shame if you are no longer doing cabarets ... remember seeing you for the first time at Camber and was mightily impressed
I do hope you are not too intimidated to dance with me - I was looking forward to a good WCS if I ever make it to Scotland again.

David Got to say Heather, having seen young Dave dance at Dance Crazy he's a big softy and lots of the lasses enjoy his style ... take him for a dance and you'll enjoy it ... and it gives the lads more chance to dance with his wonderful wife:yum:

Gadget
14th-October-2002, 10:49 PM
Originally posted by Gus
Interesting debate with good points being made througout ...
~Snip~
1) when I was originaly taught martial arts one instructor put a lot of emphasis on the footwork of the basics ... the only problem wa sthat as you become more advanced you had to unleran everything to adapt. The focus needs to be on BALANCE, not footwork .... from this the student can devlop their own style and move in the dynamic way that their body best accomodates
~snip~

Just reading some posts that caught my eye and came across your post Guss;
I am qualified to teach fencing (sword play) - although not a true martial art, it is taught in a similar fashion: A lot of the emphasis is on footwork, but each little technical point on footwork is to get the person in a completely balanced position - the un-learning part is only to try and get rid of bad habits, which get more ingrained and harder to un-learn the more advanced the student is.

BTW a while ago I did some thinking on how the teaching of Fencing and Dancing compared and came to the conclusion that coaching could be improved from taking some pointers from dancing.

Unfortunately to be a good fencer, you have to be able to break your opponent's timing and have no sense of rhythm yourself (Which is why I coach and don't compete :wink: )

~Edited~
I don't know why I posted this - I had a point, but it got lost somewhere; dissagreeing with Gus I think? :confused:

Jon
15th-October-2002, 09:04 PM
Likes
Teachers with a sense of humor
Moves that follow naturally and feel nice
Variations on moves I already know (I dont like thinking, do to much of that at work in IT).

Dislikes
Teachers who make mistakes
Hearing move 1 man on!
Complicated moves which the ladies can't follow (And before you ask it's not always my leading!)

Major Dislikes
People who do not watch the space around them and their partner and do appropriate moves for the number of people on the dance floor are not "Experienced dancers" in my book even though they may know lots of moves.

Things to make Ceroc even better
Adding 1 move from the previous week into the routine.
Even better quickly recap all the moves from previous week.
Keep the venue open 30-60 minutes longer after dancing finishes so we can sit down with a drink and chat for a while and relax.

Bill
16th-October-2002, 04:02 PM
Agree with every point you make Jon. The teacher can break the ice and get the class going and show how much fun it can be.

Already mentioned elsewhere my feelings about dancers who have no awareness of the space around them - or worse don't care if they throw themselves or their partners into other dancers. :reallymad


When our club opened we used to have to finsh at 10.00pm because it was used as a niteclub ( very much student clients !)so a few of us used to head down to the pub and when we were more confident go to a nearby niteclub that played a range of music.

I know groups do head off to pubs but it could be nice to chill out for a while afterwards with folk alhtough having said that I quite often just head off at 10.30. Must be age creeping up :really:

Sandy
17th-October-2002, 08:55 AM
[i]
I know groups do head off to pubs but it could be nice to chill out for a while afterwards with folk alhtough having said that I quite often just head off at 10.30. Must be age creeping up :really: [/B]

I like the idea of the pub afterwards or extended hours at the dance venues. Who goes where?

None of that age nonsense Bill! We will see how you fare after this weekend:wink:

See you at Musslebrough

Sandy:cheers:

Franck
18th-October-2002, 12:28 AM
Originally posted by Jon
Things to make Ceroc even better
Adding 1 move from the previous week into the routine.
Even better quickly recap all the moves from previous week.
Keep the venue open 30-60 minutes longer after dancing finishes so we can sit down with a drink and chat for a while and relax. Interesting post Jon, and I wanted to comment on the suggestions you make above.

The first one, has been discussed in the Intermediate class format thread (I hope you have added your vote to the poll :wink: ), and I agree, it seems the way forward. There is a good chance that this will be added as a standard part of the Ceroc Teacher Training. There is also a case for doing the same with the Beginners class.
The idea of recapping the whole class from the previous week on the other hand is not really practical (it would take too long), but mostly, Ceroc is very proud to be able to tell dancers they don't have to attend every week; there is no pressure when you miss a class (or 5 :really: ) and I would like to keep it that way. Revising the previous week, would alienate anyone who missed it.

As for keeping the venues open longer, well, we do operate week nights (mostly) and the idea is that you can still go to work the following day, so finishing at 10.30 is a good compromise. It still allows people to move on to the nearest pub if they wish to though :cheers:

Cheers,

Franck.

MartinHarper
14th-November-2004, 06:19 PM
On the footwork tangent, I find Lindy kicks in closed position are just about leadable, with caveats. The lead is fairly subtle, so beginners can't follow it. The lead requires first leading a light bounce or "pulse", so women who refuse to bounce on coolness/smoothness grounds can't follow it. Finally, I find it very difficult to lead it well.

Anyway...

Things I like in classes:
- Being told how to lead it.
- Moves that match the music.
- Women who follow my mistakes.

Things I don't like in classes:
- Lack of space.
- Not being able to see the teacher(s).
- Being taught lots of complicated moves at a superficial level.

drathzel
14th-November-2004, 08:54 PM
I love being able to learn new moves properly and i love the opertunity to dance with new people. I dislike that there is not enough floor space or enough men!!!!!!

:hug:

Scarlet O Hara
14th-November-2004, 09:27 PM
I too dislike lack of dance floor space and men. Also some venues are pub floors rather than dance floors and can be a bit sticky.

Are numbers ever limited at venues ?

Lorna
15th-November-2004, 03:18 PM
Just reading your post Scarlet. I take it you are talking about O'Donnahues?

Most people tend to use the Thursday class as a stepping stone to one of the other 2 fab venues we have in Aberdeen. In Culter on a Tuesday we have a huge dancefloor which is great to dance on and there is loads of space in Jumpin Jaks on a Wed evening. You should come along this Tuesday and introduce yourself to me.

Hope to see you,

Lotsa love Lorna x-x

Jooles
18th-November-2004, 01:32 PM
LIKES:

Cliff, when teaching a dip or drop, saying after EVERY rotation. "Now Gentlemen, look at your lady and ask her if she wants to do the drop or the alternative".

DISLIKES:
Men who try to drop you and very nearly DO

Jooles
18th-November-2004, 02:29 PM
LIKES:

Cliff, when teaching a dip or drop, saying after EVERY rotation. "Now Gentlemen, look at your lady and ask her if she wants to do the drop or the alternative".

DISLIKES:
Men who try to drop you and very nearly DO