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DundeeDancer
14th-August-2007, 04:02 PM
Ladies, what's the judgement on dancing in the intermediate class with blokes that maybe should have stayed in the beginners class a bit longer, as they seem to struggling to string any of the new intermediate routine together? :sick:

MartinHarper
14th-August-2007, 04:09 PM
blokes that maybe should have stayed in the beginners class a bit longer, as they seem to struggling to string any of the new intermediate routine together? :sick:

The point of the class is to learn to string intermediate routines together. Accordingly, some people taking the class will not be able to string the intermediate routine together. That's why they're taking the class.

Twirly
14th-August-2007, 04:12 PM
The only thing that annoys me about new intermediates is when they keep interrupting the dance/music with constant apologies for what they think they've just done wrong :(

Mind you, I have some sympathy, as I used to do it too... :blush:

New intermediates are tomorrow's great dancers. They need to be encouraged and nurtured. Have you had a recent bad experience DundeeDancer?

ducasi
14th-August-2007, 04:13 PM
I'm not a woman, but I'd expect most to vote #3.

What I find curious though is that you are called "DundeeDancer", but you're based in Edinburgh. :confused:

Lynn
14th-August-2007, 04:15 PM
Depends. Most beginners will struggle with the transition to intermediates for the first few weeks. That doesn't mean they can't try. If they are comfortable and confident with the beginner moves, then they should be ready to try the intermediate class - but I would recommend they only aim to remember one of the moves in the int class and practice it after the class along with their beginner moves.

However if a lead is still struggling with the beginner moves, they might not be ready to make the transition just yet.

In terms of commenting, it really depends on how well I know the person. And being 'crew' I can say things where someone who is just another regular punter maybe can't. Tact can be important here, the lead might already be feeling discouraged at not being able to get the intermediate moves, you don't want to make him feel worse!

I think this is where 'intermediate taxis' would be good and I aim to fill this role (not in 'uniform' but in approachability) within our local classes, giving intermediates someone to ask if they are struggling with any of the moves.

ShinyWeeStar
14th-August-2007, 04:23 PM
Personally I wouldn't be too worried if a lead couldn't "string" the moves together, particularly if they've only just moved up to intermediates. Learning moves doesn't happen overnight and not all moves or routines suit everyone anyway. I've heard it said before and it makes a lot of sense - it's a good idea to pick your favourite move from a routine and focus on learning/remembering that one rather than the whole thing at once. Practice throwing that one move in amongst moves you already know and before you know it you've extended your repertoire. :nice:

It's only frustrating when the partner you're with in the class isn't comfortable leading beginner moves and is trying to run before they can walk (i.e. they don't have the basics and struggle with stringing together beginner moves in freestyle).

Don't give up too soon - but remember there's no shame in returning to the beginner/review classes for a while either, if that's what you feel you need to do. :flower:

happygoldfish
14th-August-2007, 11:30 PM
Don't give up too soon - but remember there's no shame in returning to the beginner/review classes for a while either, if that's what you feel you need to do. :flower:

Yes, there is shame in returning. :blush:

And what's the point? If neither the teacher nor the taxi-dancers have been good enough to set you right in the first six weeks, why believe they'll manage it during the next six? :rolleyes:

Most beginners are sensible, and know when the review class is a waste of time. :(


Male dancers starting intermediate class too sooon.

Ladies, what's the judgement on dancing in the intermediate class with blokes that maybe should have stayed in the beginners class a bit longer, as they seem to struggling to string any of the new intermediate routine together? :sick:

Hmm … not only a loaded question, but a loaded thread-title as well. :what:


:nice: It's the teacher's fault! :nice:

Everything that goes wrong in class is the teacher's fault! :devil:

Come to sunny St Alban's and do the intromediate class! :grin:

Rogboy
14th-August-2007, 11:38 PM
I was doing the Beginners for 7 weeks when I knew that I had to move to keep my sanity as I was getting fed up doing the same moves.

Yes it was daunting and I did doubt myself for moving, but after the 2nd week of Intermidiates, I knew I had to push on to get better. I'd like to think now that, yes, I'm still a 'beginner' when it comes to dancing (13 weeks in total), but I've learnt to put a couple of half-decent intermediate moves into my dancing and I think they come off ok.

Whitebeard
15th-August-2007, 12:29 AM
I was doing the Beginners for 7 weeks when I knew that I had to move to keep my sanity as I was getting fed up doing the same moves.

Yes it was daunting and I did doubt myself for moving, but after the 2nd week of Intermidiates, I knew I had to push on to get better. I'd like to think now that, yes, I'm still a 'beginner' when it comes to dancing (13 weeks in total), but I've learnt to put a couple of half-decent intermediate moves into my dancing and I think they come off ok.

I'd be interested to know what these 'moves' are. In my experience intermediate 'moves', as taught, are mini routines, a mish-mash of 'elements' from beginner moves and the 'classic' (never knowingly taught in their basic form) intermediate moves. Generally speaking, apart from man-spinning and those stupid inelegant duck under moves, they're not physically difficult even for an oldster like me. Any difficulty lies in remembering what to do, or not to do, at probably, a minimum of 50 counts learned over half an hour or so. No time for muscle memory to assist. In fact muscle memory has to be fought against in any variation upon the normal.

onkar
15th-August-2007, 12:47 AM
Ladies, what's the judgement on dancing in the intermediate class with blokes that maybe should have stayed in the beginners class a bit longer, as they seem to struggling to string any of the new intermediate routine together? :sick:


Well from a blokes perspective, I would suggest you vote no.3

I recall when I first moved to intermediates, I struggled, and a helpful lady patted me on the shoulder, and suggested I go back to the beginners class for a few more months!. Made me feel bloody awful. Was tempted to pack it in.

However, for those that know more, I opted to redouble my efforts and started going 2-3 times a week, to get the hang of it. Some day I am sure I will!

Since then, having been a taxi, a venue manager and a teacher, I can say from my experience, that men as a rule have very fragile ego's. Ladies it is so easy to scare men off my making a harsh comment. Even constructive criticism aimed at helping can be taken negatively!

Onkar

johnnyman
15th-August-2007, 08:22 AM
I purely note this from a guy's perspective and say that you should ease yourself gently into the more complex moves. One of my biggest bugbears is seeing people, who are clearly and obviously first or second-time beginners, deciding to have a go at the intermediate class without the recommended initial six class period of learning.

The point of the six-class period is to allow yourself to get comfortable with the beginners moves and to get accustomed to what is going to clearly be a more challenging routine. There is also the issue of signals and double-handholds, cross handholds and so on, as well as how you turn a lady and end a routine, particularly during the really stylish moves like one-armed dips and swizzle turns.

Doing a workshop as soon as possible is the best way forward if you want to fast-track to more advanced freestyle. My advice to anyone who is unable to attend a workshop and is only intent on attending the classes - always ask the advice of teachers and taxis regarding your level and also pay attention to those good dancers on the floor who are out there most of the time to observe what they do and how they interact with their partners.

Most importantly, have a go and if it is a more advanced dancer, do your level best to lead and follow. If you are leading a more advanced dancer than yourself, work on what you have learned so far rather than incorporate a move that you haven't practiced sufficiently and if you are following a more advanced dancer, relax your arms and allow yourself to be guided around the floor. Don't try to resist the person's lead as this can cause you unnecessary ache. In either case, the more advanced person will probably have an idea of what you are trying to do.

One of the best bits of advice I got from my early days dancing was to take the dancing one move at a time. Start off with a couple of moves and work at them and then build on your repetoire. Another was how to structure your freestyle. In a nutshell, during a workshop I was told to pick the best 10 beginners moves and style the rest of your freestyle around these. You don't have to do complex moves to create an effective routine and a lot of the time the best dancers have kept their routine simple and easy to follow, which is why they are often on the floor the most during an evening.

best
johnnyman

Keefy
15th-August-2007, 08:32 AM
A loaded thread title and a loaded poll - but it does highlight a problem and that problem is what can be the massive gulf between the beginners and intermediate classes. I'm not sure that a "you're no good, get back to the review class" approach is that helpful in retaining male leads!

On occasions I still struggle in the intermediate class, if it gets too bad (not getting over 50% of it!) then I step out of the class rather than waste everybody's time. But it is a class, I'm there to learn, it seems that some people don't have the patience to let others learn as they once had to themselves.

I like the sound of the intromediates class at St Albans, that's a venue I haven't been to yet but am now thinking it may be worth the journey next week :)

johnnyman
15th-August-2007, 09:18 AM
I'm not sure that a "you're no good, get back to the review class" approach is that helpful in retaining male leads!
There can appear to be a massive gulf, but like you say it is a class and you are there to learn. Often perseverance in any shape or form and not being intimidated by people who say something like the above. At the end of the day, these people have done themselves no favours and one thing I have noticed is that these people are normally the sort who stop after about 20 Intermediate lessons and tend to stick to freestyle.

I know people will just come to the freestyle because of the cheaper price, however those individuals haven't developed their dancing as much as they think and probably have more bad habits than most. I have never stopped learning and I am always looking for ways to improve my dancecraft, with the effect that my dance partners benefit and are a lot happier because of this.

It is important to remember that Beginners moves, whilst basic, are often lifesavers on the floor if you are trying to experiment with new moves you've learned. They are designed for everyone's benefit.

MartinHarper
15th-August-2007, 09:31 AM
These people are normally the sort who stop after about 20 Intermediate lessons and tend to stick to freestyle.

Interesting. I can't think of anyone locally who's done this. The folks I know who skip Intermediate lessons are generally those who've been dancing for a long time.


What's the point? If neither the teacher nor the taxi-dancers have been good enough to set you right in the first six weeks, why believe they'll manage it during the next six? :rolleyes:

Well, it worked for me.

David Bailey
15th-August-2007, 09:43 AM
Blimey, where are the ladies who are supposed to be answering this query? Coz all I can see is posts from men...

johnnyman
15th-August-2007, 09:48 AM
I suppose it varies from area to area. I have seen people who have been dancing for a long time in London at big Saturday events and I know they have been dancing longer than me, but still haven't moved on from the basics and intermediate level.

Twirly
15th-August-2007, 09:56 AM
Blimey, where are the ladies who are supposed to be answering this query? Coz all I can see is posts from men...

So what do you suppose Lynn, Shiny and myself are then! :angry:

David Bailey
15th-August-2007, 10:32 AM
So what do you suppose Lynn, Shiny and myself are then! :angry:
OK, slight exaggeration, but it's still very top-heavy with comments from men... Errr, me included :blush:

Twirly
15th-August-2007, 10:37 AM
OK, slight exaggeration, but it's still very top-heavy with comments from men... Errr, me included :blush:

And what thread about dancing isn't?! :rolleyes:

DundeeDancer
15th-August-2007, 11:30 AM
I suppose the thread title and the pole are loaded questions but at least they get people thinking about the issue of retaining new male leads going into the intermediate class.

A few questions going through my mind but really I just wanted some feedback from this thread to hopefully give me some re-assurance that I'm proceeding at the right pace and with the right frame of mind. :confused:

I was a little put off the first week of the intermediate class for 2 reasons, the moves were taught very quickly and I didn't get them right in my head until the very last walk through. Secondly I got a huffy dance partner that made a scene about me getting lost in the routine. :(

What I've learned though is the huffy dance partner is a bit of a rubbish dancer as I got her in the beginners class last night and she could hardly keep up with me doing the beginners routine! I guided her through it OK and even got a few smiles from her along the way. :nice:

Also what I've really appreciated and what I want to say on here is that the more experienced female dancers have lots of patience and give lots of useful advice which isn't easy in a busy dance class. They are such a big inspiration it's only right to say a big THANK YOU to those lovely ladies! :flower:

So my own opinion of the pole is that the best answer is somewhere between 2 & 3.

My personal preference leaning more towards 2 and the lady giving more direction.

After all girls on top rock…opps said too much again! :grin:

FoxyFunkster
15th-August-2007, 12:12 PM
Ladies, what's the judgement on dancing in the intermediate class with blokes that maybe should have stayed in the beginners class a bit longer, as they seem to struggling to string any of the new intermediate routine together? :sick:

For what it`s worth i did 17 beginners classes before i ventured into an intermediate class! it`s imperative that you get a good grounding and infrastructure in the beginners moves so that it`s easier to learn all the variations and harder moves, i now actively encourage men to do more beginners classes than the 6 weeks of less request, there are things that are as important as actually doing the classes, DVD`s are a big help as are workshops, the best way to learn is to do as many classes as you can in your first 6 months......if you only do 1 per week i do think progress can be slow.....

tsh
15th-August-2007, 12:21 PM
What I've learned though is the huffy dance partner is a bit of a rubbish dancer as I got her in the beginners class last night and she could hardly keep up with me doing the beginners routine! I guided her through it OK and even got a few smiles from her along the way. :nice:


I've noticed this. The followers who I find annoying in the class because they try to 'help' at the wrong time or insist that I ought to do the move exactly as they think it has been taught are themselves unable to follow a lead, and seem to be projecting their problems onto every lead they dance with. I had someone insist that if she doesn't help, none of the men in the class can cope - yet she was the only one who I struggled with in that class!

When I am confused about part of a move I will ask for help from anyone I think ought to be able to show me how it works though, as well as trying to find out if I'm succeeding in giving a clear lead.

Sean

Princess Fi
15th-August-2007, 01:06 PM
Hey everyone's there to learn at the end of the day - provided that the atittude's right, who's to say "you don't belong in this advanced a class!".

I remember my first day in the intermediate class, and my dnacing majorly sucked! All I wanted to do was go running back to the review classes and hide behind the nearest taxi dancer. I think if anyone had actually said "you don't belong here" I would have just pitched a tent in the review session and never come out!

Yes it can be frustrating when you constantly hear your new lead apologising or getting things wrong, but it always makes me smile cause it doesn't seem that long ago since I was doing that constantly

... er, in fact I think it was at Jaks last night... :blush:

Twirly
15th-August-2007, 01:29 PM
I've noticed this. The followers who I find annoying in the class because they try to 'help' at the wrong time or insist that I ought to do the move exactly as they think it has been taught are themselves unable to follow a lead, and seem to be projecting their problems onto every lead they dance with

:blush: I wish I could say that I’ve never done this, but I’m afraid that I did for a while when I first started intermediates. I used to pay attention to the teacher, and try to follow what the teacher had said we should be doing, rather than try and follow the lead that was being given by my partner – but only because that was what I thought I was supposed to be doing, and I thought it was helpful. :blush:

Somewhere along the way, I’ve stopped doing this, seem to spend the class in a world of my own, but normally seem to follow OK – although am not much use now in helping a lost leader if he asks me what he should be doing, as I’ve not been paying attention unless several people have done the move correctly with me (sorry – you can’t have it both ways!). The disadvantage from my point of view, is that I actually find the intermediate class a bit boring sometimes – seem to be there to just be twizzled about.


Hey everyone's there to learn at the end of the day - provided that the atittude's right, who's to say "you don't belong in this advanced a class!".

I remember my first day in the intermediate class, and my dnacing majorly sucked! All I wanted to do was go running back to the review classes and hide behind the nearest taxi dancer. I think if anyone had actually said "you don't belong here" I would have just pitched a tent in the review session and never come out!

Yes it can be frustrating when you constantly hear your new lead apologising or getting things wrong, but it always makes me smile cause it doesn't seem that long ago since I was doing that constantly

:yeah:

I vividly :blush: remember my first intermediate night. Don’t know the name of the move, but I was in a half-nelson, and the lead had to bring my other arm behind my back somehow, so that I wound up with my arms crossed behind my back, and the lead in front of me holding each hand behind at my sides – quite a close move, and required very loose arms. I was doing it with a rather vertically challenged chap, whose head was craned back trying not to get lost in my cleavage. Unfortunately, he also gave my right arm a rather sharp tug to try and get it into place behind my back, causing me to cry out in shock and pain – at the exact moment that the room went quiet… :blush: The teacher heard and started asking “who said ouch, who said ouch?!” whilst I dissolved into giggles…

I laugh about it now, but strangely enough, although I see him most weeks, this chap has never ever asked me to dance! :innocent:

timbp
15th-August-2007, 02:30 PM
I used to pay attention to the teacher, and try to follow what the teacher had said we should be doing, rather than try and follow the lead that was being given by my partner

Bad!


Somewhere along the way, I’ve stopped doing this, seem to spend the class in a world of my own, but normally seem to follow OK – although am not much use now in helping a lost leader if he asks me what he should be doing

Also bad!

I believe that, in class, you should follow what is led.
But you should also be able to answer a leader who asks what he should be doing.

The two questions I ask followers are (1) why didn't you go there? (ie, what was wrong with my lead); and (2) how can I lead you there? (ie, how do I fix my lead).

If you haven't been paying attention and can't answer (and it doesn't matter to you as you can follow whatever is properly led), then why not sit out and let another woman join the class?

Twirly
15th-August-2007, 02:43 PM
The two questions I ask followers are (1) why didn't you go there? (ie, what was wrong with my lead); and (2) how can I lead you there? (ie, how do I fix my lead).

If you haven't been paying attention and can't answer (and it doesn't matter to you as you can follow whatever is properly led), then why not sit out and let another woman join the class?

Not sure how to get around that one - if I listen to the teacher, I'm going to want to try and go where she tells me to. Which means that I'm not following properly, which isn't much help to the lead either.

I probably made suggested that I pay less attention than I do actually. It's hard to describe. I sometimes find that I know when things haven't gone as they're supposed to, but not necessarily how to put them right (which is to do with the left and right being reversed for the follow from what the teacher has said - I get confused). If the first person I've done it with has got it right, then I can usually tell my new follow where I'm supposed to end up/they're supposed to end up, if not necessarily how we're supposed to get there.

I shall have a think about this and see if there's a way I can enjoy the class more and yet not backlead but be helpful to the lead.

Anyway, if I'd sat out on Monday night, there would have been three spare men instead of two! :na:

Twirly
15th-August-2007, 03:08 PM
I was a little put off the first week of the intermediate class for 2 reasons, the moves were taught very quickly and I didn't get them right in my head until the very last walk through. Secondly I got a huffy dance partner that made a scene about me getting lost in the routine. :(

What I've learned though is the huffy dance partner is a bit of a rubbish dancer as I got her in the beginners class last night and she could hardly keep up with me doing the beginners routine! I guided her through it OK and even got a few smiles from her along the way. :nice:

It's just occurred to me - wouldn't DD's huffy dancer and Connie's hotshot go well together? :innocent:

timbp
15th-August-2007, 03:22 PM
Not sure how to get around that one - if I listen to the teacher, I'm going to want to try and go where she tells me to.
Well...easy for me to say...don't go where she tells you to, go where you are led. But know where the teacher intended you to go, and be able to tell the leader what would have made you go there.

This means you, a follower, need to think a bit about the lead -- what lead would make you go where you are expected to go.

tsh
15th-August-2007, 04:18 PM
This means you, a follower, need to think a bit about the lead -- what lead would make you go where you are expected to go.

I know that isn't as easy as it sounds, I make exactly the same mistakes following a yo-yo as complete beginners sometimes make when I'm leading.

I only expect a small fraction of the class to be able to explain part of a move if I've not got it - and then it's likely to be because they knew the move before the class. Either that, or I try 2 different options and ask which works better.

Sean

Mythical
16th-August-2007, 12:23 AM
I danced with a guy a few weeks ago, who was a really good lead after the beginners class, even though it was his first week. I danced with him again after the intermediate class, and he immediately started to do the intermediate routine - on his first week. Kudos to him for doing that, and he managed to get the routine together and lead it well enough for me to follow - but I believe he'd have had a better time, and been better to dance with if he'd done the review class.

Perhaps teachers should explain the review class a bit better - most of the time, it's more than just a recap of the moves you've just learned, and when you put it like that, it sounds a bit dumb - and maybe this guy felt he was smarter than that! - I think the important thing about the review class is the emphasis on small, basic points. like hand hold, signals, turns and returns (ie. you're not stirring a vat of porridge!) and the little points that ther teacher doesn't have time to see in a big beginners class.

And no one should be allowed out of the review class until they don't attempt to dislocate your shoulders/wrists, don't grip, and can dance in time with the music!

timbp
16th-August-2007, 12:33 AM
turns and returns (ie. you're not stirring a vat of porridge!)
That depends on the partner. Sometimes you are stirring a vat of porridge.

stairman
18th-August-2007, 04:13 PM
And no one should be allowed out of the review class until they don't grip, and can dance in time with the music!

Who decides if & when some one can dance

If I was the one to decide if I could dance I would still be in the review class

robd
19th-August-2007, 11:24 PM
For what it`s worth i did 17 beginners classes before i ventured into an intermediate class!

I did over a dozen beginner's classes before I did my first intermediate (and then struggled in intermediates for quite a few weeks) but like FoxyFunkster, I'm not often short of a partner now. Sometimes I feel people are advised/encouraged for whatever reasons to move up to intermediate class too soon - i.e before they are even confident and competent in beginners. I still strongly believe it should be a personal choice as to when you move up but it's worth knowing that you can take your time and know that people who didn't move up that quickly are not necessarily bad dancers.

Gav
28th-August-2007, 09:37 AM
For me the choice was simple, to begin with I only had Monday nights free and in Norfolk that meant beginners only all night.
I did that for 3 months before I got a Tuesday night off, which was when I tried Intermediate.
I honestly believe that the extended period in beginners only is the main reason why I didn't struggle with intermediate classes at all.

Shame I can't remember any of it though :blush:

timbp
28th-August-2007, 09:58 AM
I did over a dozen beginner's classes before I did my first intermediate (and then struggled in intermediates for quite a few weeks).
I did 10 beginnner classes, then an Intromediate workshop. I then did another 2 beginner classes before I tried an intermediate class.
I was able to get through the moves in the intermediate class, but never felt I had learned anything I could use.
After a couple of weeks I stopped doing classes, and just watched. Eventually I went back to the progression classes and found they (different teacher after 6 weeks) were teaching all the stuff I had decided (from watching the intermediate classes) I needed to learn.

What you learn depends on who's teaching. If male dancers are not ready for intermediate after 6-8 classes, then get better progression teachers.

Raul
28th-August-2007, 10:24 AM
Eventually I went back to the progression classes and found they (different teacher after 6 weeks) were teaching all the stuff I had decided (from watching the intermediate classes) I needed to learn.



Are you sure that you did not change your perspective on what you needed rather than the teachers themselves?

what about the following -

"When I was 16, i thought that my father was the uncoolest person on earth.
Now I am 20. It is amazing how much the old man has changed in 4 years, he rocks now"

timbp
28th-August-2007, 10:39 AM
Are you sure that you did not change your perspective on what you needed rather than the teachers themselves?

what about the following -

"When I was 16, i thought that my father was the uncoolest person on earth.
Now I am 20. It is amazing how much the old man has changed in 4 years, he rocks now"

I do see your point. But in this case, "no".
The new teacher was/is in general a better teacher. (I still say this 3 years after the events in question.)

Beowulf
28th-August-2007, 10:41 AM
For what it`s worth i did 17 beginners classes before i ventured into an intermediate class


I did over a dozen beginner's classes before I did my first intermediate


I did 10 beginner classes, then an Intromediate workshop. I then did another 2 beginner classes before I tried an intermediate class.

ha got you all beat.. I was a beginner for 2.5 to 3 years :wink: :whistle:

Seriously I did a LOT of beginner classes. Think I'd been taught every beginner move about 3 to 4 times by the time I eventually felt like moving up.

Even then I struggle sometimes with the intermediate routines. Normal pattern is.. I get a couple of moves I understand then BLAMMO the teacher picks a move from her big dance book of confusion and I'm lost.

Most followers are helpful and understanding but there are a few (more than a handful) that get annoyed if you cant "get it"

"it's easy! she's shown you once already.."
"yeah but I've also watched Casualty.. doesn't mean I can do open heart surgery!!"

My normal reaction is to leave the dance floor mid class and sit down.

I don't like followers who insist on strongly back leading me though the move.. I can't learn it that way.. but a little gentle "suggestion" here and there often helps.. If I get lost it's usually the follower who says "Step back and but arm here.. " etc.

The intermediates class is full of people LEARNING intermediates moves. Obviously some are not going to get them first time.

timbp
28th-August-2007, 11:08 AM
The intermediates class is full of people LEARNING intermediates moves. Obviously some are not going to get them first time.

So stop trying to learn moves!

My impression from reading this forum is that women enjoy dancing with you.
So stop thinking about what you do wrong, and start thinking about what you do well enough that women want to dance with you.

And don't allow backleading. If you lead something and it goes wrong, it is your responsibility to make it right, and your partner's responsibility to follow your lead.

David Bailey
28th-August-2007, 11:50 AM
So stop trying to learn moves!
If the class teaches moves, what else can you learn?


And don't allow backleading. If you lead something and it goes wrong, it is your responsibility to make it right, and your partner's responsibility to follow your lead.
Well, yeah, but sometimes it may be useful at the start to get some assistance from a follower, in order to become familiar with the form.

stairman
28th-August-2007, 12:22 PM
I get a couple of moves I understand then BLAMMO the teacher picks a move from her big dance book of confusion and I'm lost.

Most followers are helpful and understanding but there are a few (more than a handful) that get annoyed if you cant "get it"

"it's easy! she's shown you once already.."


I find this as well

It seems strange to me how I can be almost confident with a move when I then get a "helpful follower trying to explain what I am doing wrong" and I have then lost the move totally

When I am trying to learn a move I do not find backleading or any other type of leading other than verbal helpful (tell me don’t lead it)

If the follower starts giving leads I end up trying to catch up not learning what I should be doing :blush:

Twirly
31st-August-2007, 02:36 PM
I used to pay attention to the teacher, and try to follow what the teacher had said we should be doing, rather than try and follow the lead that was being given by my partner

Bad!


Somewhere along the way, I’ve stopped doing this, seem to spend the class in a world of my own, but normally seem to follow OK – although am not much use now in helping a lost leader if he asks me what he should be doing :

Also bad!

I believe that, in class, you should follow what is led.
But you should also be able to answer a leader who asks what he should be doing.

The two questions I ask followers are (1) why didn't you go there? (ie, what was wrong with my lead); and (2) how can I lead you there? (ie, how do I fix my lead).

If you haven't been paying attention and can't answer (and it doesn't matter to you as you can follow whatever is properly led), then why not sit out and let another woman join the class?


Not sure how to get around that one - if I listen to the teacher, I'm going to want to try and go where she tells me to. Which means that I'm not following properly, which isn't much help to the lead either.

*snip*

I shall have a think about this and see if there's a way I can enjoy the class more and yet not backlead but be helpful to the lead.


Well...easy for me to say...don't go where she tells you to, go where you are led. But know where the teacher intended you to go, and be able to tell the leader what would have made you go there.

This means you, a follower, need to think a bit about the lead -- what lead would make you go where you are expected to go.

OK, it’s taken me a while to get round to replying to this, but I have been a good follow and thought about it in the meantime. And partially implemented what Tim was suggesting.

First week I just looked at what I was doing/not doing in class (intermediates). I seemed to be copying where the teacher was going (we have a female teacher), even if I wasn’t completely accurately lead there on the simpler moves (i.e. so long as the lead sent me in roughly the right direction). If he didn’t, then I went where I was sent, but then said “I think I’m supposed to be over there, not over here”. If I knew how to get there, that’s all well and good, I could tell them how to get me there, but this did fall apart a bit on the more complicated arm-twisty moves. I find it difficult (though God knows how George copes) as obviously she’s saying left to the men – whereas it’s the opposite way around for me, sometimes. The first week we had one move where I wound up with one hand on each of my shoulders with my arms crossed in front of me – the guy had got them there whilst holding each hand by lifting and twisting. I knew where I was supposed to be, but had no idea how I got there. Fortunately, apart from one or two (including one yanker who got a loud “ow” from me and a very hard Paddington Bear stare when he forced the move) most seemed to get it eventually, with little or no help from a rather bewildered me.

The second week was better – less complicated moves (George seems to have reached her peak of complexity and toned it down a bit). Was even more conscious of listening but not backleading… one poor guy was completely lost. Managed to get him back on track with a mix of verbal instruction and going where I knew I was supposed to be even if the lead wasn’t that clear. He called me his “saviour!” at the end just before he moved on :D

This week, again, not quite as complex, but we had footwork. Apologies again for not knowing the name of the move – was facing in the same direction as the lead, arms crossed behind backs, his right in my right, my left in his left, hands at hip level. Had to step forward cross-wise, left across right, then right across left, then swivel away from each other so facing in the opposite direction and step right across left, left across right – then lead nudges out so that I step forward onto my right (weight on the correct foot was important - if I were to step on my left, all would get tangled for the next move :sick:). Several leads just could not get the footwork… at one point I sounded like a drill sergeant going “left, right, swivel, right left” – fortunately the recipient of these instructions had asked for help and the fact that he was laughing his head off (as was I), may not have helped matters! He seemed to get there in the end though :)

So Tim, is this better? I probably do have my vacant nights, but mostly I am listening. I just think that I’d become unaware of what I was doing, but this has been useful, as it’s given me an extra dimension to focus on.

timbp
4th-September-2007, 01:20 PM
So Tim, is this better? I probably do have my vacant nights, but mostly I am listening. I just think that I’d become unaware of what I was doing, but this has been useful, as it’s given me an extra dimension to focus on.

"Better"? I don't know how it was for you.
But I'm certain the leaders learned a lot more from you in those classes than if you had remained vacant. And the eventual result will be better leaders, sooner. (And if you're very lucky, a few will recognise what they learned from dancing with you in rotation, and will continue to dance with you once they think they know everything.)

DundeeDancer
4th-September-2007, 02:42 PM
Several leads just could not get the footwork… at one point I sounded like a drill sergeant going “left, right, swivel, right left” – fortunately the recipient of these instructions had asked for help and the fact that he was laughing his head off (as was I), may not have helped matters! He seemed to get there in the end though :)

So Tim, is this better? I probably do have my vacant nights, but mostly I am listening. I just think that I’d become unaware of what I was doing, but this has been useful, as it’s given me an extra dimension to focus on.

I understand now that followers don't need to learn the moves but be "in the zone" to follow to make it a good dance but during class it is so helpful to the new leads to get a few words of advice from there followers if they are not getting the move.

Even if the advice isn't that helpful it makes the lead feel like they are in a friendly environment and not getting judged to hard. If when learning the move it goes wrong and the follower says nothing, doesn't smile or anything the lead will more than likely feel like a failure and assume the follower is well annoyed. This has happened to me a few times and after class I've not exactly been rushing to ask those silient followers for a dance.

So Twirly I think if you can give the leads some encouragement during class then you'll find you will have more fun during the class and afterwards the new leads will be queuing up to dance with you :flower:

Twirly
4th-September-2007, 03:24 PM
So Twirly I think if you can give the leads some encouragement during class then you'll find you will have more fun during the class and afterwards the new leads will be queuing up to dance with you :flower:

Damn, you guessed my cunning plan! :whistle: