My rant for the week....

[Lee Bartholomew]

The idiots that think it ok to get someone they have never danced with before and do dips and drops with them.

I am hearing more and more stories from dancers at various venues run by various organisers that there is an increasing tendancy for men just to throw women in to drops and lifts.

Most of them seem to be older men trying to impress younger ladies. I have seen some horrific looking drops recently done by people with no technique at all.

It's an accident waiting to happen.

Please please please men, ask before you do drops or better still, only do them with partners whome you have practised them with.

[DD+]

I totally agree with you....i was at Fulham Last night and heard a woman screach as a man tried to do some kind of drop with her....and she didnt look happy after either! I am now starting to learn some drops:clap: (I know its taken me a while to build up the courage....but Paul is fab:love: i trust him) he is extremely careful when showing me them that there is no one around.....!

It seems a shame that not everyone is as considerate as last night i came out of a spin and nearly trod on some womans head!!!!:sick: :sick: :blush: SORRY!

[Cruella]

The lady can take some of the responsibility too, they should be refusing to do them. I was dancing on the Boat on Sunday on a very lumpy, busy, deck. The guy tried to put me into a couple of really low drops, I stopped myself from following them and said "I'm sorry but it's too busy, I would like to keep my head intact." He was fine and apologised. Sometimes a little verbal communication works wonders.:wink:

[Lee Bartholomew]

I've always taught women how to block them ( by bending knee, pushing bum out and dropping sholders forward) It's not always possible to do though, esp if the lady is quite small.

Also it seems to be the younger girls and newer ones that the men are trying to impress by risking knocking them out. Not all of them have the courage or experiance to say something, though I wish they would.

[happygoldfish]

I have seen some horrific looking drops recently done by people with no technique at all.

It's an accident waiting to happen.

woodface, would you clarify? I get the impression you're worried, not about injury caused by collision, but about injury, or horror, caused by the drop or lift itself?


Please please please men, ask before you do drops or better still, only do them with partners whom you have practised them with.

Asking permission in the middle of a dance is usually impractical. And if you ask at the beginning, she hasn't had time to decide whether she trusts you.

And what do you say? You can't ask for a carte-blanche for "all dips and drops"!

And if you specify, say, a seducer, how does she know whether she'd like you to do it until you've done it? :what: There's good seducerers and bad seducerers! :really:


I've always taught women how to block them …

I think the duty should be on the leader to allow her an opt-out.

If a leader does have the technique to allow her an opt-out (and I think most do), then what harm is done?

And if he doesn't have that technique, he shouldn't be doing the move anyway.

[Gus]

If a leader does have the technique to allow her an opt-out (and I think most do), then what harm is done?

And if he doesn't have that technique, he shouldn't be doing the move anyway.I'm sorry but I have no idea what you're on about. Ignoring the 'dynamic' drops, take the example fo a first move drop or a Robbie Dip .... if you are using this move for interpretation to the music how could you put on multiple-options in for your partners benefit :confused: :confused:

I know this topic has been covered numerous times (comes around every 6 months since the Forum has existed) but I still have seen no better advice that to refer to Lounge Lizard's legendary 'Rules for Drops'. Maybe someone could post it as a usefull reference source.

[Lee Bartholomew]

I'm sorry but I have no idea what you're on about. Ignoring the 'dynamic' drops, take the example fo a first move drop or a Robbie Dip .... if you are using this move for interpretation to the music how could you put on multiple-options in for your partners benefit :confused: :confused:

I know this topic has been covered numerous times (comes around every 6 months since the Forum has existed) but I still have seen no better advice that to refer to Lounge Lizard's legendary 'Rules for Drops'. Maybe someone could post it as a usefull reference source.

Peter was well known around Hastings for his dips and drops. Unfortunatly he stopped teaching just as I was starting so never really got to many of his classes. Im not sure how he taught them.

I can't see any harm in not putting dips and drops in to a dance anyhow. I do some unusual drops with my regular dance partner which I think people see and think it's ok for them to just throw her about. She is to polite to say something to them which annoys me alittle.

I know of a few beginners that have been put off by it.

[Martin]

The vast majority of advanced dancers rarely do dips or drops on a social floor even though they know how to.

My regular Tue night partner has a problem with one guy, who she always asked not to do drops with her... every time he then goes ahead and does it, in a forceful way (she is only 43kg, there is a limit to what she can block).
Yes, she now politely refuses, but sometimes gives in. Tells him ok, but please not drops... then off he goes.... :angry:

[Astro]

The vast majority of advanced dancers rarely do dips or drops on a social floor even though they know how to.

My regular Tue night partner has a problem with one guy, who she always asked not to do drops with her... every time he then goes ahead and does it, in a forceful way (she is only 43kg, there is a limit to what she can block).
Yes, she now politely refuses, but sometimes gives in. Tells him ok, but please not drops... then off he goes.... :angry:

I used to avoid men who like to drop with bad technique.

They don't put two and two together though, so now I don't avoid them, but state at the beginning "no drops please" and things are usually fine.

My back is not strong enough for badly done drops or dips as I have found to my cost.

Lately, men have been trying to finish on a drop. My sabotage ruins the dance at the end. It's best to say no at the beginning.

And no means no!

There are some leads who do wonderful drops, so don't stop!

[Martin]

I used to avoid men who like to drop with bad technique.

They don't put two and two together though, so now I don't avoid them, but state at the beginning "no drops please" and things are usually fine.

My back is not strong enough for badly done drops or dips as I have found to my cost.

Lately, men have been trying to finish on a drop. My sabotage ruins the dance at the end. It's best to say no at the beginning.

And no means no!

There are some leads who do wonderful drops, so don't stop!

:yeah: She has no problem doing drops with people who can.
Done badly, either hurts the girl or the guy.

She has no injuries BUT ...He is very rough.

I must give her some sabotage tips...
she is 6 stone 8oz - toned and has muscles. Not a victim, but with a rough guy...

Do you have a top 5 tips and tricks to abandon drops from a girls perspective?

:flower:

[Astro]

I've always taught women how to block them ( by bending knee, pushing bum out and dropping sholders forward) It's not always possible to do though, esp if the lady is quite small.





Do you have a top 5 tips and tricks to abandon drops from a girls perspective?

:flower:

Not sure what I do exactly, may move my leg back. Sometimes we are so unbalanced that i have my arms round his neck and am clinging on. But, at least I am upright.

Think sabotaging drops and dips should be taught.

Cruella will know. Cruella....

I know men have the same problem, women throwing themselves into drops.. How do men sabotage?

[Martin]

I know men have the same problem, women throwing themselves into drops.. How do men sabotage?

You have 2 options... Let go and wait for the thud as they hit the floor, or do your back in catching them.

[Mac]

You have 2 options... Let go and wait for the thud as they hit the floor, or do your back in catching them.

In theory you would only have to hear the thud once :wink:

but you can potentiually do your bck in a dozen times. :really:

I hope ive always been able to take no for an answer if someones says No drops (or whatever) but as far as women who throw themselves at your neck :eek:

I know who they are now and I still dance with them I just keep my disance! If there is too much room to thow themselves across the abyse They generally don't:D :D

[dance cat]

woodface, would you clarify? I get the impression you're worried, not about injury caused by collision, but about injury, or horror, caused by the drop or lift itself?



Asking permission in the middle of a dance is usually impractical. And if you ask at the beginning, she hasn't had time to decide whether she trusts you.

And what do you say? You can't ask for a carte-blanche for "all dips and drops"!

And if you specify, say, a seducer, how does she know whether she'd like you to do it until you've done it? :what: There's good seducerers and bad seducerers! :really:



I think the duty should be on the leader to allow her an opt-out.

If a leader does have the technique to allow her an opt-out (and I think most do), then what harm is done?

And if he doesn't have that technique, he shouldn't be doing the move anyway.

:angry: :angry: I really couldn't disagree more
You should always ask before dancing and ask for permission. This is just good manners and a safe attitude to have. Try being on the receiving end of someone who thinks they can do drops and then talk about injury caused by them.
In one dance at a freestyle it is not possible to build up trust or get an accurate idea of how competent someone is at doing them. Many men think they can do drops and they can't do them safely.
I always tell anyone who I dance with that I don't do drops. Even then there are some men who don't take no for an answer and I have on a couple of occasions simply stopped mid dance. Many women don't know how to opt out because it's not taught and there's a great deal of difference between being shown once how to sabotage and practising it regularly so that it becomes second nature.

[Astro]

I hope ive always been able to take no for an answer if someones says No drops (or whatever) but as far as women who throw themselves at your neck :eek:

Mac, darling, the only reason I would be hanging onto his neck is to save myself from being plunged into a nasty drop.

Inexperienced leads don't always realise that a follow is sabotaging, and try to "help" her into a drop, then it ends up in a fight.


:angry: :angry: I really couldn't disagree more
You should always ask before dancing and ask for permission. This is just good manners and a safe attitude to have. Try being on the receiving end of someone who thinks they can do drops and then talk about injury caused by them.
In one dance at a freestyle it is not possible to build up trust or get an accurate idea of how competent someone is at doing them. Many men think they can do drops and they can't do them safely.
I always tell anyone who I dance with that I don't do drops. Even then there are some men who don't take no for an answer and I have on a couple of occasions simply stopped mid dance. and in to my little black book.
Many women don't know how to opt out because it's not taught and there's a great deal of difference between being shown once how to sabotage and practising it regularly so that it becomes second nature.
Your post is spot on dance cat.:clap:

I must remember to say to all the men I'm not sure of "no dip/drops" before the dance.

It's hard to remember though, I like to relax and enjoy myself.

[happygoldfish]

I'm sorry but I have no idea what you're on about.

I only know two drops, and in both of them my arms are underneath my partner, so when I lower them, I am moving them away from her, and so she has the opt-out of just staying where she is! :nice:

I don't know what happens in other drops – I assumed they all had similar opt-outs – if not, they sound really dangerous for the follower.

Don't all drops have opt-outs? :confused:

Are teachers seriously teaching hazardous moves which are compulsory on the follower? :really:


Ignoring the 'dynamic' drops, take the example of a first move drop or a Robbie Dip ....

Sorry, I've no idea what those two are. :blush: Can't comment …

[Baruch]

You have 2 options... Let go and wait for the thud as they hit the floor, or do your back in catching them.
Since I did my back in (disc trouble) a couple of months ago, I have made it clear to several ladies that I will go for the first option if they throw themselves into unlead drops. I have no desire to put myself through all that pain again if I can avoid it.

[Mr Cool]

In my view drops can be perfomed safely:yeah:

Unfortanatly most men :mad: not just beginers:devil: try to substitute strength for technique:sad:

Done correctly there is no strain on either partner.:wink:

To complete any drop the man must always be centered and balanced and most of all he must know where the ladies centre is (there all different guys):rofl:

The man should always ask the womans permision.:respect:

Never perform drops in the centre of a crowded dancefloor.:angry:

Mostly ladies ask me to perform drops.:whistle:

:waycool: :waycool::cheers: :cheers:

[David Franklin]

I only know two drops, and in both of them my arms are underneath my partner, so when I lower them, I am moving them away from her, and so she has the opt-out of just staying where she is! :nice:In almost any drop with a hand-to-hand grip, the move will be executed with the lead's arms above the follower, and usually initiated by bringing the arms towards the follow. (i.e. almost exactly the opposite of what you describe).

Even when leading such a drop, you should still be giving the follow the opportunity to opt-out; the lead should only be an indication, not a command.


Are teachers seriously teaching hazardous moves which are compulsory on the follower? :really:It's worth realising that however well things are taught, and however good the dancers, once you take the follow past the point where she can balance unsupported, everything that happens is compulsory from her point of view. She has absolutely no control on how deep the man takes the drop, for example.

[Astro]

In my view drops can be perfomed safely:yeah:

Unfortanatly most men :mad: not just beginers:devil: try to substitute strength for technique:sad:

Done correctly there is no strain on either partner.:wink:

To complete any drop the man must always be centered and balanced and most of all he must know where the ladies centre is (there all different guys):rofl:

The man should always ask the womans permision.:respect:

Teachers do tell leads to ask first when a drop is being taught. I suppose they forget.

One lead told me he had no control over himself, it depended where the music led him.


Mostly ladies ask me to perform drops.:whistle:
Obviously you have great technique. I don't think we have met Mr. Cool.[/quote]

[Lee Bartholomew]

In my view drops can be perfomed safely:yeah:



So can aerials and juggling knives if done by the right person.

Agrre with the other stuff you said though.

The main risk apart from being dropped, is alot of people suffer from back problems. Probly more so than any other injury.

If backs are going to get damaged worse it is most likley to happen from a drop than any other move.

[Mr Cool]

Obviously you have great technique. I don't think we have met Mr. Cool.[/q

I guess I am not that well known or easy to spot being the young shy retiring type :wink:
I have been known to dance at the odd london venue and the occasional weekender.:whistle:

Look forward to a dance some time. :cheers:

:cheers: :waycool: :waycool: :waycool:

[Astro]

The main risk apart from being dropped, is alot of people suffer from back problems. Probly more so than any other injury. More people give a bad back as the reason to have time off work than any other health problem.


If backs are going to get damaged worse it is most likley to happen from a drop than any other move.
Dips too, and those lay backs give me pyschomatic back pain just watching!


I guess I am not that well known or easy to spot being the young shy retiring type :wink:
I have been known to dance at the odd london venue and the occasional weekender.:whistle:

Look forward to a dance some time. :cheers:

:cheers: :waycool: :waycool: :waycool:
You're on!

[Mac]

I don't think we have met Mr. Cool.[/quote]

He he you'd know im if you Saw him :wink: go to the southport pics on my Gallery N check out the dude in the Black Leather Cap . That'd be him!:respect: :respect: He's not Mr Cool for nothing!!:grin:

I am reminded that it was a year ago today that I underwent 7 hours of Back surgery! :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Nothing to do with dancing but I tell you I do drops dips n Lifts now with no trouble! :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

but I had to be careful for a while. :really:

I was very careful who I chose to do such moves with then and I am the same now.:whistle:

Thats the deal end of!! :waycool:

Do every move deliberately!:cheers:

[rubyred]

I guess I am not that well known or easy to spot being the young shy retiring type :wink:
I have been known to dance at the odd london venue and the occasional weekender.:whistle:



Well you are only a young boy of 6 and a half :rolleyes: :whistle:

Whilst on the subject of drops leaders should always ask before they do a drop. Whilst technique is more important over brawn I would not do a drop with someone I didn't feel confident with. I think for a follower it is important to take some control if you can, and if you don't feel safe then I think it is ok to sabotage the move. It is hard when someone is so much stronger than you and you find yourself thrown into it before you know it. I would have strong words afterwards and make my feelings known about how I feel. As the Sergeant used to say in Hill street blues......Be careful out there.:flower:

[Astro]

I think for a follower it is important to take some control if you can, and if you don't feel safe then I think it is ok to sabotage the move. It is hard when someone is so much stronger than you and you find yourself thrown into it before you know it.

Any tips for sabotaging?

[Lee Bartholomew]

Any tips for sabotaging?

Going to start some filming tonight for online lessons. Will make sure I include a sabotage in there.

Will post link when its done.

[rubyred]

Any tips for sabotaging?

Well one I try is to do when I am put into a drop and I don't think its safe, I hold onto the leader's hands tight and tend to stand upright with my weight on both feet, rather than in a stance where you might have your weight on a back foot and ready to take the weight on one leg. I'll show you if you are at SP, which I hope you are and we can say hello.:cheers: :flower:

[Mr Cool]

Hi to avoid drops keep your bottom low let it slide to the floor and bend your legs. works every time .:D :D
Please with me keep the body straight like a stick relax and enjoy safe injury free drops.:wink: :wink:

:waycool: :whistle::cheers: :cheers:

[Astro]

He he you'd know im if you Saw him :wink: go to the southport pics on my Gallery N check out the dude in the Black Leather Cap . That'd be him!:respect: :respect: He's not Mr Cool for nothing!!:grin:

That's a bit vague Mac. Putting Southport into your search engine only gave me 6 photos. Southport June 2007 only gave me 1 photo!

Going to start some filming tonight for online lessons. Will make sure I include a sabotage in there.

Will post link when its done.
Great!

Well one I try is to do when I am put into a drop and I don't think its safe, I hold onto the leader's hands tight and tend to stand upright with my weight on both feet, rather than in a stance where you might have your weight on a back foot and ready to take the weight on one leg. I'll show you if you are at SP, which I hope you are and we can say hello.:cheers: :flower:
:flower: I haven't booked. Think it is sold out.:tears: Actually I have never been to Southport.:sad: (only Scarborough).


Hi to avoid drops keep your bottom low let it slide to the floor and bend your legs. works every time .:D :D like an eel?

Please with me keep the body straight like a stick relax and enjoy safe injury free drops.:wink: :wink:

:waycool: :whistle::cheers: :cheers:
:flower:

[Mythical]

There's no reason I can't do drops. I just don't want to go down on a guy I've just met.:innocent:

Really - I love drops, and kudos to the few guys who have managed to get me into a real drop - but most can't sem to understand that it takes some confidence in their dancing ability (and, sorry....their physical strength) as well as your own, and I can't possibly have confidence in their ability after two bars of a song - I have enough trouble with confidence in my own!. I really really don't like to be frowned at, or told off because I've blocked a drop.

I have no problem saying no - but no one's ever given me the chance. Then I sabotage a drop, or just do half a one with my weight on my own feet, and people assume I don't do them. :(

[Aleks]

I just don't want to go down on a guy I've just met.
:really:
:whistle:
:yeah:

[johnnyman]

I do think you should have a sense of what a particular dancer is capable of before going into dips and drops. If her hand hold is resistant and she is less experienced, then the chances are this is not the thing to try with her.

My rule is to - be prepared!. The male should be able to know where to hold and support a lady and a lady should not anticipate what the guy is going to do. Ladies should not attempt dips without good experience or technique from teachers.

Rules

(1) Good support on the back and shoulders.
(2) Bring the lady out of the dip as soon as possible after doing it.
(3) Contrast the dip (except if it is at the end of the record) with a nice easy move or a reasonable intermediate move.

:respect: to all dancers,
johnnyman