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Thetruth
27th-July-2007, 04:50 AM
I am confused as to what steps are required in ceroc footwork for competitions. The competitions held in Australia by the two major companies in Sydney do not list the footwork in the competition rules. This is confusing as I have done Dancesport and the rules are clear on all styles as to the footwork and timing required. Plus the list of moves allowed for each level. Ceroc in Aust does not do this for their competition rules and only states elements of other styles. Currently there seems to be a push towards WCS as a similiar style to ceroc. And thus in competitions WCS dancers seem to fair better than the standard ceroc dancer.
I was of the understanding that advanced footwork in ceroc was right foot back, left foot back, right foot forward, left foot forward, and the concertina lead method. Not slot dancing as in WCS moves.
So can I ask what are the ceroc rules in Scottish competitions regarding footwork etc?

Yliander
27th-July-2007, 08:00 AM
I am confused as to what steps are required in ceroc footwork for competitions. The competitions held in Australia by the two major companies in Sydney do not list the footwork in the competition rules. This is confusing as I have done Dancesport and the rules are clear on all styles as to the footwork and timing required. Plus the list of moves allowed for each level. Ceroc in Aust does not do this for their competition rules and only states elements of other styles. Currently there seems to be a push towards WCS as a similiar style to ceroc. And thus in competitions WCS dancers seem to fair better than the standard ceroc dancer.
I was of the understanding that advanced footwork in ceroc was right foot back, left foot back, right foot forward, left foot forward, and the concertina lead method. Not slot dancing as in WCS moves. the footwork you have described is step footwork (for guys) as taught by CMJ. Can’t say I’ve ever come across comp for MJ rules that specifiy what is MJ footwork – it has always been more a case of not x, y, z dance foot work to be done - when there is a rule regarding the percentage of the dance must be MJ

As to WCS dancers doing better than standard ceroc dancers in Comps in Aus – not sure that is true – as Perth keep taking home a swag of trophies and as far as I know there isn’t much WCS there.


So can I ask what are the ceroc rules in Scottish competitions regarding footwork etc? Foot work in ceroc in the UK?!?!?! :rofl: It’s not taught so how could it be specified for comps???

Lory
27th-July-2007, 08:26 AM
I was of the understanding that advanced footwork in ceroc was right foot back, left foot back, right foot forward, left foot forward, and the concertina lead method.



Foot work in ceroc in the UK?!?!?! :rofl:
Oh no!

Here we go again! :tears:

pjfrad
27th-July-2007, 09:56 AM
Currently there seems to be a push towards WCS as a similiar style to ceroc. And thus in competitions WCS dancers seem to fair better than the standard ceroc dancer.
I was of the understanding that advanced footwork in ceroc was right foot back, left foot back, right foot forward, left foot forward, and the concertina lead method. Not slot dancing as in WCS moves.

Whilst WCS is definitely having an influence on the MJ scene, I don't think that WCS style does better in Ceroc comps in Australia than other styles, one particular couple who has a latin(ish) style has done very well for many years.

Sometimes it can look West Coast like because when dancing MJ for a competition you need to present to a front where the judges usually are. In doing so you then create what can look like a slot but doesn't really have the same underlying purpose.

You are right about the footwork taught for males however it's not a strict rule for comps and you can mix it up by doing other stuff. What they do say is that it must be recognizable for as MJ and not another style so if you throw in a few tripple steps, no big deal, if you break out into WCS footwork and moves you will be marked down.

Peter

Thetruth
30th-July-2007, 01:24 AM
it has always been more a case of not x, y, z dance foot work to be done - when there is a rule regarding the percentage of the dance must be MJ

SO what is MJ dance? Can someone explain the style? MJ is confusing compared to other established styles regarding style and footwork. So what is it?

ads
30th-July-2007, 06:34 AM
SO what is MJ dance? Can someone explain the style? MJ is confusing compared to other established styles regarding style and footwork. So what is it?
Here in lies the problem as most dance styles can be defined by their footwork but MJ is defined more by its lack of footwork and thus has a bit of an identity problem in my mind. I love MJ but I too always find it hard to quickly sum up its soul!

CJ
30th-July-2007, 02:08 PM
SO what is MJ dance? Can someone explain the style? MJ is confusing compared to other established styles regarding style and footwork. So what is it?

When asked about MJ, I answer something like:
"take the atitude of tango, the sexiness of salsa, the fun of jive and lindy, put together the best moves, then take out the footwork."

For us with a smattering of knowledge it's not an ideal description, but it seems to work for muggles.

Thetruth
31st-July-2007, 03:49 AM
When asked about MJ, I answer something like:
"take the atitude of tango, the sexiness of salsa, the fun of jive and lindy, put together the best moves, then take out the footwork."

For us with a smattering of knowledge it's not an ideal description, but it seems to work for muggles.

So if I enter a ceroc competition I just move as described above? It seems very loosely based for competition and would be left to a judges individual interpretation on how ceroc should be danced. That is why it seems more like a popularity contest in Australia than a dance style contest. The numbers for the masters level is down drastically on previous years. Only 4 couples competed in the masters level at the Australian Victorian champs in July 07. I think the lack of rules may be causing less participation as dancers advance to the masters level.
I started with ceroc - 3 yrs then took to Latin for 3 yrs competing in Dancesport now Tango and developing a style called cabaret. Combining the dance styles learnt when freestyling. I actually have little interest in competing in ceroc due to the obscure nature of the rules regarding style and footwork. Plus it can be very political. A couple in Vic at the Brisbane comp of 2006 have disappeared from the ceroc competition circuit. I believe because they were disappointed in being overlook continually. I, believe in Brisbane they should have placed 2nd or at the least 3rd. But did not place at all. I hope they are still dancing as they were developing a wonderful masculine/feminine style.....the guys name is Allan not sure of his partners name though.

Yliander
31st-July-2007, 08:42 AM
So if I enter a ceroc competition I just move as described above? It seems very loosely based for competition and would be left to a judges individual interpretation on how ceroc should be danced. That is why it seems more like a popularity contest in Australia than a dance style contest. no more so than in the UK – the rules for footwork in the UK are just as vague for competitions.

As to popularity contest if you have couples that are all equally technically competent – then of course the judging is going to become subjective as to what an individual judge prefers presentation/style wise.



The numbers for the masters level is down drastically on previous years. Only 4 couples competed in the masters level at the Australian Victorian champs in July 07. I think the lack of rules may be causing less participation as dancers advance to the masters level. quality over quantity :wink: Masters/Champions in Aus isn’t a category you just choose to enter, most comps require 2/3 places at Advanced to move up to this level. I know of 2 couples that have previously competed at Melbourne who didn’t this year due to non dance related reasons… Also when a dance partnership splits up at that level it is not always easy to find new partners as the new partnership will be required to compete at Masters even if the new partner is not required to compete at that level – it’s a daunting prospect



I started with ceroc - 3 yrs then took to Latin for 3 yrs competing in Dancesport now Tango and developing a style called cabaret. Combining the dance styles learnt when freestyling. I actually have little interest in competing in ceroc due to the obscure nature of the rules regarding style and footwork. well that is your choice – one of the difficult things about competing in MJ is that the rules will vary wildly between comps in what is allowed at various levels. As to the obscure nature of rules regarding footwork – well the foot work in MJ is not as prescribed as in ballroom – which is one of it’s appeals for many dancers. My experience has been that in Aus some comp rules state that the dance danced must be a min % of MJ usually about 70-80% in the UK I have yet to encounter any rules of that nature – but then again footwork in the UK is even vaguer than in Aus


Plus it can be very political. A couple in Vic at the Brisbane comp of 2006 have disappeared from the ceroc competition circuit. I believe because they were disappointed in being overlook continually. I, believe in Brisbane they should have placed 2nd or at the least 3rd. But did not place at all. I hope they are still dancing as they were developing a wonderful masculine/feminine style.....the guys name is Allan not sure of his partners name though. Competitions in all sports and all countries can be seen to be very political. People disappear from the comp circuit for all sorts of reasons, partnerships dissolve, work commitments, family commitments. As to who should place and who shouldn’t – well everyone has their opinion and to be honest I don’t always understand why a couple I thought should have at least placed didn’t and a couple that I barely notice did…. But then again maybe I missed a mistake or didn’t see some fabulous stuff

pjfrad
31st-July-2007, 10:18 AM
So if I enter a ceroc competition I just move as described above? It seems very loosely based for competition and would be left to a judges individual interpretation on how ceroc should be danced. That is why it seems more like a popularity contest in Australia than a dance style contest.


I think that this can make it for a more interesting competition, it becomes less about who has the correct step or arm angle or other technical aspect and more about who can make the dance look good. I have watched ballroom competitions and whilst I'm sure the dancers are excellent and executing perfect technique I often think it looks horrible (just my opinion). This is also not to say that I think technique is unimportant. I believe that without good technique it's difficult to make the dance look good, I just don't think the technique has to be restrictive.

As to a popularity contest, I don't really think so, I've seen comps where the favorites don't place and where an unknown might. At the end of the day (as with any judged sport) it comes down to who the judges liked on the day. Also with any sport you generally get some people who are at the top and win a lot, this is not necessarily because they are more popular, it might just be that they are better.



The numbers for the masters level is down drastically on previous years. Only 4 couples competed in the masters level at the Australian Victorian champs in July 07. I think the lack of rules may be causing less participation as dancers advance to the masters level.


In Australia masters/champions is not a category you can just enter, it's based on previous results at competitions, the rules vary but you usually have to have won an advanced category or two to get there.

I know of two couple who missed the vic champs this year, me being one of them, for justified reasons, i.e. I moved to the UK. Also the proximity of the champs to the Ceroc and Modern Jive champs this year may have had an impact. And I'm sure there were lots of other personal reasons for people competing / not competing. If I remember correctly masters was quite a big category at the Vic champs the previous year.



I started with ceroc - 3 yrs then took to Latin for 3 yrs competing in Dancesport now Tango and developing a style called cabaret. Combining the dance styles learnt when freestyling. I actually have little interest in competing in ceroc due to the obscure nature of the rules regarding style and footwork.


This sound more like personal preference than anything else. You like strict rules about footwork, timing, style, etc... some people don't.



Plus it can be very political. A couple in Vic at the Brisbane comp of 2006 have disappeared from the ceroc competition circuit. I believe because they were disappointed in being overlook continually. I, believe in Brisbane they should have placed 2nd or at the least 3rd. But did not place at all. I hope they are still dancing as they were developing a wonderful masculine/feminine style.....the guys name is Allan not sure of his partners name though.

I think after every champs I have been to, regardless of the results, rules, competitors or winners, somebody has always said it's about politics and it's usually those who don't get the result they want or expect (not necessarily competitors).

I was good friends with the couple you are talking about and really admired their dancing, and whilst I don't know their reasons for not competing, they are a perfect example of a couple who continually put in the effort and worked on their dancing and styling. I think that you may have liked them and thought should have placed because you like dancesport, and they had a latin-ish style. I have known a few people in MJ who think the latin styling should be more successful at MJ comps than it is because they think the techniques involved in moving and shaping the body should be rewarded, however at the end of the day you are not competing latin, your competing MJ.

Peter

Tessalicious
31st-July-2007, 02:00 PM
I actually have little interest in competing in ceroc due to the obscure nature of the rules regarding style and footwork. Just out of interest then, if you're not interested in competing why are you asking about the footwork for comps? Were you interested until we confirmed your suspicion, just generally trying to find out what Ceroc competitions are about from a spectator's point of view, or looking to compare with your own preferred dances? I'm not complaining about your post, just curious about the motivation behind the question.

I started with ceroc - 3 yrs then took to Latin for 3 yrs competing in Dancesport now Tango and developing a style called cabaret. Combining the dance styles learnt when freestyling. I'm also interested in your new style 'cabaret'. Assuming you mean not a choreographed cabaret but a style of dance, what would you say the difference is between this style you are developing and Ceroc/MJ danced really well at the Open level?

After all, as most people who've watched the UK top couples (Simon and Nicole, Phil and Yuko, Amir and Cat to name but a few) could tell you, their dancing usually incorporates elements of related styles such as WCS, cha-cha, salsa, lindy, street and tango. I'm curious to know what you're doing that manages to incorporate these dance styles without having to use the relaxed technical framework of MJ.

Thetruth
1st-August-2007, 01:58 AM
Just out of interest then, if you're not interested in competing why are you asking about the footwork for comps? Were you interested until we confirmed your suspicion, just generally trying to find out what Ceroc competitions are about from a spectator's point of view, or looking to compare with your own preferred dances? I'm not complaining about your post, just curious about the motivation behind the question.
I'm also interested in your new style 'cabaret'. Assuming you mean not a choreographed cabaret but a style of dance, what would you say the difference is between this style you are developing and Ceroc/MJ danced really well at the Open level?

After all, as most people who've watched the UK top couples (Simon and Nicole, Phil and Yuko, Amir and Cat to name but a few) could tell you, their dancing usually incorporates elements of related styles such as WCS, cha-cha, salsa, lindy, street and tango. I'm curious to know what you're doing that manages to incorporate these dance styles without having to use the relaxed technical framework of MJ.

I was very interested in competing but after noting the past two major ceroc competitions in Aust did not state the rules clearly ie., footwork, style (still unsure as to the ceroc style although it would seem relaxed without any framework and little regard for lines (with the frame). Shoulders not straight nor arms displaying little movement (when compared to other styles). Footwork is optional? But I keep hearing the ceroc style must be shown throughout x percentage of the dance. So if this is to be done then footwork should be clarified.
The cabaret style is one that incorporates funk, hip hop elements, latin and ballroom styling, plus tango. The posture is akin to latin and ballroom. The arms are latin and funk styling. Footwork using Latin and Hip Hop, American jive kicks. Tango style frame for leading when in arm hold with follow. The dance is very vibrant in energy, masculine/feminine and groovy. It is a style that is 21st century to capture the way youth dance. When we freestyle in clubs and at parties in Aust, numerous people ask and are keen to learn the way we dance. We would like to entertain at weddings, parties, private functions etc. We currently have some dance gigs for a few private parties and the money is very good.

Thetruth
1st-August-2007, 03:18 AM
*I think that this can make it for a more interesting competition, it becomes less about who has the correct step or arm angle or other technical aspect and more about who can make the dance look good. I have watched ballroom competitions and whilst I'm sure the dancers are excellent and executing perfect technique I often think it looks horrible (just my opinion).
Dancing is about technique, ceroc offers little when compared to other styles........"looking horrible" just your opinion (ceroc looks ordinary - not to have a go back and it is just my opinion). Opinions are like noses everybody has one...:wink:

*This sound more like personal preference than anything else. You like strict rules about footwork, timing, style, etc... some people don't.
But dont rules set the boundaries for competing? I mean just about every sport or dance has rules for competitors.

*however at the end of the day you are not competing latin, your competing MJ.
This is why rules and clarification of style and footwork would help ceroc.
Peter

I am not trying to stir trouble, just want to understand the rules governing ceroc in competitions. But I dont seem to be getting any information that states clear rules on footwork. I think this is important in establishing a credible dance style.

Thetruth
1st-August-2007, 07:34 AM
no more so than in the UK – the rules for footwork in the UK are just as vague for competitions.

As to popularity contest if you have couples that are all equally technically competent – then of course the judging is going to become subjective as to what an individual judge prefers presentation/style wise.


quality over quantity :wink: Masters/Champions in Aus isn’t a category you just choose to enter, most comps require 2/3 places at Advanced to move up to this level. I know of 2 couples that have previously competed at Melbourne who didn’t this year due to non dance related reasons… Also when a dance partnership splits up at that level it is not always easy to find new partners as the new partnership will be required to compete at Masters even if the new partner is not required to compete at that level – it’s a daunting prospect


well that is your choice – one of the difficult things about competing in MJ is that the rules will vary wildly between comps in what is allowed at various levels. As to the obscure nature of rules regarding footwork – well the foot work in MJ is not as prescribed as in ballroom – which is one of it’s appeals for many dancers. My experience has been that in Aus some comp rules state that the dance danced must be a min % of MJ usually about 70-80% in the UK I have yet to encounter any rules of that nature – but then again footwork in the UK is even vaguer than in Aus

Competitions in all sports and all countries can be seen to be very political. People disappear from the comp circuit for all sorts of reasons, partnerships dissolve, work commitments, family commitments. As to who should place and who shouldn’t – well everyone has their opinion and to be honest I don’t always understand why a couple I thought should have at least placed didn’t and a couple that I barely notice did…. But then again maybe I missed a mistake or didn’t see some fabulous stuff

Thanks for your reply, length too and informative. My main concern is the rules relating to the ceroc style. Not having limitations in a dance style sounds great, but unfortunately, people have limitations in their physical abilities. So the ones to benefit from no limitations are the exceptional athletes, of which, are a minority in general society. So why have an unlimited dance style when the dancers themselves are limited in ability? I heard that ceroc comp rules are more like guidelines than rules. Unfortunately, this disturbs me, when thinking of a fair competition and a level playing field for all.
Thanks again for taking the time to provide your answer......:nice:

bigdjiver
1st-August-2007, 10:40 AM
When asked about MJ, I answer something like:
"take the atitude of tango, the sexiness of salsa, the fun of jive and lindy, put together the best moves, then take out the footwork."

For us with a smattering of knowledge it's not an ideal description, but it seems to work for muggles.I like, but too long. How about "partying to music"?

Yliander
1st-August-2007, 12:41 PM
Thanks for your reply, length too and informative. thank you



My main concern is the rules relating to the ceroc style. Not having limitations in a dance style sounds great, but unfortunately, people have limitations in their physical abilities. So the ones to benefit from no limitations are the exceptional athletes, of which, are a minority in general society. So why have an unlimited dance style when the dancers themselves are limited in ability? I heard that ceroc comp rules are more like guidelines than rules. Unfortunately, this disturbs me, when thinking of a fair competition and a level playing field for all. the other dances you talk about have a much longer history than MJ. It sounds to me like you are wanting MJ to be things that it isn’t – and for me a dance style that is only limited by the abilities/imaginations of the dancers is exciting – as in all things there will only be a few who reach the highest pinnacles but there is nothing to stop the rest of us muddling around on the mountain as well.

And while MJ may not have it’s self definitive footwork – it does know what it isn’t and that’s a start towards defining what it is

ducasi
1st-August-2007, 12:52 PM
I am not trying to stir trouble, just want to understand the rules governing ceroc in competitions. But I dont seem to be getting any information that states clear rules on footwork. I think this is important in establishing a credible dance style.
The main rules concerning footwork in Ceroc competitions:


You are expected to move your feet in time with the music.
Especially if you're a girl.
Depending on the category, you may not be allowed to lift both your partner's feet off the floor.
Ceroc is danced "on 1", with the downbeats* emphasised.
The rest is up to you.


If you have done Ceroc/MJ dancing for 3 years, you'll know the footwork as taught. The footwork expected in competitions is the same.

Fortunately competition rules do not make or break a dance style's credibility.



* Or is it upbeats? I can never remember.

ads
1st-August-2007, 01:36 PM
The main rules concerning footwork in Ceroc competitions:


You are expected to move your feet in time with the music.
Especially if you're a girl.
Depending on the category, you may not be allowed to lift both your partner's feet off the floor.
Ceroc is danced "on 1", with the downbeats* emphasised.
The rest is up to you.


If you have done Ceroc/MJ dancing for 3 years, you'll know the footwork as taught. The footwork expected in competitions is the same.

Fortunately competition rules do not make or break a dance style's credibility.



* Or is it upbeats? I can never remember.
I thought that Ceroc technically was danced on two but we say "and" 1 with the "and" being the 1 and the 1 really being the 2(when you count music properly).:what:

ducasi
1st-August-2007, 01:58 PM
I thought that Ceroc technically was danced on two but we say "and" 1 with the "and" being the 1 and the 1 really being the 2(when you count music properly).:what:
You could be right... We had a big long discussion about this stuff earlier in the year, but I forgot what the conclusion we came to was – assuming, of course, that we did come to a conclusion!

Thinking some more, we do step on the 1, but the 2 is emphasised, so maybe I should have said '... is danced "on 1", with the upbeats emphasised.'

Thetruth
2nd-August-2007, 01:07 AM
I thought that Ceroc technically was danced on two but we say "and" 1 with the "and" being the 1 and the 1 really being the 2(when you count music properly).:what:

In latin - the basic is move on the 1 and plant the foot on 2. However, during a song, the hits are on the 1. So they cannot be missed when dancing on beat. However, in ceroc the movement is on the 1 or the start is on the 1 - this is the basic step (as in latin basic step). Ceroc therefore, misses the hits, in songs they are generally on the 1 beat. I have seen ceroc masters miss ever single hit to a latin song because of this (spotlight dances), but recently have seen a couple from Sydney change their count and get the hits on 1. This was one thing when starting to learn latin that really got me hooked. It had direction in the style and footwork, and I was buzzing.............. :grin:

pjfrad
2nd-August-2007, 09:59 AM
In latin - the basic is move on the 1 and plant the foot on 2. However, during a song, the hits are on the 1. So they cannot be missed when dancing on beat. However, in ceroc the movement is on the 1 or the start is on the 1 - this is the basic step (as in latin basic step). Ceroc therefore, misses the hits, in songs they are generally on the 1 beat. I have seen ceroc masters miss ever single hit to a latin song because of this (spotlight dances), but recently have seen a couple from Sydney change their count and get the hits on 1. This was one thing when starting to learn latin that really got me hooked. It had direction in the style and footwork, and I was buzzing.............. :grin:

Is that possibly because the song was designed for latin and not MJ:wink:? It's hard to make MJ look good to a cha cha or walse. But then I guess it's hard to make a walse look good to salsa music or a cha cha to work with walse music either....

Thetruth
3rd-August-2007, 01:33 AM
Is that possibly because the song was designed for latin and not MJ:wink:? It's hard to make MJ look good to a cha cha or walse. But then I guess it's hard to make a walse look good to salsa music or a cha cha to work with walse music either....

Funny then that they play at ceroc championships Latin songs as has happenned in the finals recently at the Vic champs and last years CA comp? Doesnt make sense??? Santana and Rob Plant (Matchbox 20) had a song that was a slow cha cha beat yet MJ did a routine to it in 2001 or 2002. So its off the mark to say what you have said.............:wink:

TheTramp
3rd-August-2007, 01:48 PM
Only 4 couples competed in the masters level at the Australian Victorian champs in July 07.

Actually, there were 6 couples (your name wasn't living up to it's reputation there mate! :flower: ). [Nicky & Adrian, John & Christie, Clinton & Emma, Steve & Jayne, Karl & Olivia, Steve & Simone].

Given that 2 of the people running the comp normally compete at Masters level (Deb & Cat), and they wouldn't have entered their own comp, that would have made 8 couples under other circumstances, which would be comparable with (or indeed more than) the numbers at any of the 4 comps I've been to in Australia in the last couple of years at Masters level.

Of the other couples that I know of that are still competing together at Masters level in Oz, Dane & Deanna didn't compete as Dane couldn't afford to make the trip; Jason & Leah were at the Canberra comp the weekend before, and I guess that there's a limit on the number of trips you can make; Peter & Amy (as Peter has said) would have moved up having won the requisite number of advanced places, but they're currently in the UK. I can't think of many other couples who might have been there, but weren't.


A couple in Vic at the Brisbane comp of 2006 have disappeared from the ceroc competition circuit. I believe because they were disappointed in being overlook continually. I, believe in Brisbane they should have placed 2nd or at the least 3rd. But did not place at all. I hope they are still dancing as they were developing a wonderful masculine/feminine style.....the guys name is Allan not sure of his partners name though.

Personally, I wouldn't have had Allan & Anita in the top 3 in Brisbane (nothing wrong with them, I just thought that the other couples in the final all danced better), although, I'm still sure that there must have been something wrong with the judges at that particular comp anyhow!

David Bailey
3rd-August-2007, 02:06 PM
I am not trying to stir trouble, just want to understand the rules governing ceroc in competitions. But I dont seem to be getting any information that states clear rules on footwork.
Funny that. :innocent:

(i.e. that's because there are no clear rules.)


I think this is important in establishing a credible dance style.
I agree - or at least, it's one of the criteria.

So, obviously, my view is that MJ is not a credible dance style (for whatever value you assign to "credible").


SO what is MJ dance? Can someone explain the style? MJ is confusing compared to other established styles regarding style and footwork. So what is it?

As I said in this post (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/lets-talk-about-dance/13040-ceroc-now-just-wcs-disguise-2.html#post384550), the only decent definition of MJ I've ever seen is:


Modern Jive is a Lead and Follow Partner dance where movements take multiples of two beats and finish on beats 1 and 3 of music written with 4 beats to the bar

Any other definition I've seen can always have "Yeah, but..." exceptions.

That's it.

pjfrad
3rd-August-2007, 07:04 PM
I had a post here but decided to remove it because it sounded a little to self promoting.

Thetruth
13th-August-2007, 03:28 AM
Actually, there were 6 couples (your name wasn't living up to it's reputation there mate! :flower: ).
Thanks for the clarification...............Although only 6 couples, it is still a very poor attendance for a major dance competition in Victoria.

Thetruth
13th-August-2007, 03:35 AM
I had a post here but decided to remove it because it sounded a little to self promoting.

Damn!!! I love self promotion......................................:ye ah:

TheTramp
13th-August-2007, 03:40 AM
Actually, there were 6 couples (your name wasn't living up to it's reputation there mate! :flower: ).
Thanks for the clarification...............Although only 6 couples, it is still a very poor attendance for a major dance competition in Victoria.


Not really (at all?). As I said in my previous post, that's pretty much the same numbers that have entered at Masters level in any of the 4 comps I've done in Oz in the last 2 years.

Even in the UK, where the numbers of modern jive dancers far, far exceed the numbers of dancers in Australia, I'd be struggling to find many more couples (people?) than that who would qualify for a Masters comp given the criteria that they have for entry in Oz, amongst the people currently competing in the UK.

Since they have 5 levels of competitor (beginners, intermediate A, intermediate B, advanced and masters) there, the people are split up - and many of the people competing at open level in the UK, would be in advanced, rather than masters, if such a structure was adopted in the UK.

Also, just to re-iterate the point above, the number of dancers in the UK far exceeds the number of dancers in Australia. I wouldn't be surprised if there were more dancers in London & surrounds than there are in the whole of Australia.

Thetruth
14th-August-2007, 03:12 AM
Not really (at all?). As I said in my previous post, that's pretty much the same numbers that have entered at Masters level in any of the 4 comps I've done in Oz in the last 2 years.

Even in the UK, where the numbers of modern jive dancers far, far exceed the numbers of dancers in Australia, I'd be struggling to find many more couples (people?) than that who would qualify for a Masters comp given the criteria that they have for entry in Oz, amongst the people currently competing in the UK.

Since they have 5 levels of competitor (beginners, intermediate A, intermediate B, advanced and masters) there, the people are split up - and many of the people competing at open level in the UK, would be in advanced, rather than masters, if such a structure was adopted in the UK.

Also, just to re-iterate the point above, the number of dancers in the UK far exceeds the number of dancers in Australia. I wouldn't be surprised if there were more dancers in London & surrounds than there are in the whole of Australia.

Its a shame the competitor numbers are so low. Competition, I believe, is what drives a sport to greater heights. Dancesport competitor numbers would be greater than Ceroc. Significantly, this drives the styles to evolve in costumes, and styling and technique. Unfortunately, I guess with ceroc being a social dance competition (as described here in Oz), competitor numbers will invariably be minimal. Although if I were a serious ceroc competitor then I would be discouraged from competing in ceroc, because its championships have few competitors so its not really such a high level achievement compared to winning at Blackpool in Open Level Dancesport championship. Its like playing Football (Soccer) for Brazil as compared to playing football in a local competition in Tasmania..........
Now lets hear from the protractors..........:grin:

ducasi
14th-August-2007, 08:45 AM
TheTruth, I guess you're just going to have to face it... Ceroc is not a sport.

It doesn't need to "evolve in costumes", and there is already plenty of evolution in style and technique happening (though perhaps not the way you'd like.)

TheTramp
14th-August-2007, 08:59 AM
Its a shame the competitor numbers are so low. Competition, I believe, is what drives a sport to greater heights.

Personally, I don't think in any way that it's a shame. Ceroc is primarily a social dance. And I hope that it stays that way. Ceroc seems to be evolving quite nicely without the need for competitions really, although, they can be fun for those people who enjoy that sort of thing.

It seems that my truth isn't yours. But you always have had your own opinions on how things should be, haven't you Steve (ok, so that is a bit of a shot in the dark! :rolleyes: ).

David Franklin
14th-August-2007, 08:59 AM
TheTruth, I guess you're just going to have to face it... Ceroc is not a sport.:yeah:

Moreover, if you want DanceSport, you know where to find it. This will be a lot more productive than spending your time complaining that MJ isn't the same as ballroom.

David Bailey
14th-August-2007, 10:24 AM
Its a shame the competitor numbers are so low. Competition, I believe, is what drives a sport to greater heights.
As Ducasi and DavidFranklin have said, Ceroc (or Modern Jive) is not a sport. Which should be clear from factors like:

the lack of clarity of rules
the lack of a governing body
the paltry rewards for winning competitions
the absence of sponsorship or professional dancers
the complete inconsistencies between competitions

and so on.

Now, it's possible to say that these are all deficiencies which hold back MJ dancing - I've said so myself, more or less - but that's the situation at the moment, so expressing surprise at the fact seems a bit odd.


Although if I were a serious ceroc competitor then I would be discouraged from competing in ceroc,
Err... OK then :confused:


because its championships have few competitors so its not really such a high level achievement compared to winning at Blackpool in Open Level Dancesport championship.
Probably true - but so what?

I get the feeling that you're coming at this from a preconceived "this is how things should be" angle, whereas things clearly aren't that way.

TheTramp
14th-August-2007, 11:15 AM
I get the feeling that you're coming at this from a preconceived "this is how things should be" angle, whereas things clearly aren't that way.

If this is Steveado from the Aussie forum, he tried saying things like this on there too, and was disagreed with.

Bit of Shirley Bassey and the Propellerheads anyone?? :rolleyes:

Gadget
14th-August-2007, 01:24 PM
Competition, I believe, is what drives a sport to greater heights.~ Unfortunately, I guess with ceroc being a social dance competition (as described here in Oz), competitor numbers will invariably be minimal.
Fortunatly Ceroc is a social dance and so it keeps the number of people looking to peacock and display to a minimum, which means that the focus is more on those who want to actually dance with their partner: It's not about how everyone looks at your dance and how it looks to everyone spectating - it's about the one person infront of you and sharing a connection with the music.

Personally, I like it developing in this way; the only good thing competitions do is give people a reason to practice together. Some people need that reason and a goal to practice for.

Thetruth
15th-August-2007, 12:11 AM
If this is Steveado from the Aussie forum, he tried saying things like this on there too, and was disagreed with.

Bit of Shirley Bassey and the Propellerheads anyone?? :rolleyes:

Dont know of a steveado on the Aussie forum. However, whats with the comment "bit of ShirleyBassey and the Propellerheads"?

Thetruth
15th-August-2007, 12:32 AM
Fortunatly Ceroc is a social dance and so it keeps the number of people looking to peacock and display to a minimum, which means that the focus is more on those who want to actually dance with their partner: It's not about how everyone looks at your dance and how it looks to everyone spectating - it's about the one person infront of you and sharing a connection with the music.

Personally, I like it developing in this way; the only good thing competitions do is give people a reason to practice together. Some people need that reason and a goal to practice for.

As in Ballroom or Latin American there is the social aspect and the competition aspect. The same could perhaps be said of ceroc, although judging by the razzing...........leaves me disappointed. I am sure there are those people who would like to see ceroc excel in the dance world. I would like to see this, but unfortunately, most (not all perhaps) on this forum seem so negative about ceroc being recognised in the dance world or having flashy dancers (who are awesome to watch and learn from). What is wrong with people wanting to achieve? What is wrong with practicing? Anything wrong with being passionate about dancing?
Comments like, "the number of people looking to peacock and display to a minimum" (so no Nigel's or Viktor's please and Lily and David forget them too! not!!) makes me think this person is perhaps envious or jealous of those that work hard at their dancing???????

ads
15th-August-2007, 12:33 AM
Dont know of a steveado on the Aussie forum. However, whats with the comment "bit of ShirleyBassey and the Propellerheads"?

I am assuming that he is referring to the song " History Repeating Itself"

Thetruth
15th-August-2007, 01:03 AM
TheTruth; if you're interested in Dancesport and want to use that as your competition benchmark then Ceroc isn't the best place for you. Ceroc is at the other end of the sporting spectrum.

Competition does drive a sport to greater heights. There are other ways as well though. Competition is usually the fastest I agree but it isn't the be-all-and-end-all. What's the rush anyway?

There are plenty of people out there putting in the time to learn good technique and refining their own dancing not for the sake of competition, but for whatever other reasons they have. They're not as visible as competitors, but that's because they chose not to be. I do my best to keep improving but have no desire to compete.

I can respect a reply to a post like this one!! Way cooooooooooooool!!!! :nice:

ducasi
15th-August-2007, 01:05 AM
Dont know of a steveado on the Aussie forum. ...
Having had a look over there, I've gotta say I can understand how TheTramp might confuse you with "steveado" – if he's confused at all.

TheTramp
15th-August-2007, 01:08 AM
Having had a look over there, I've gotta say I can understand how TheTramp might confuse you with "steveado" – if he's confused at all.

Funnily enough, I don't think I am! Something someone said to me about a name after I'd posted that confirmed my guess. :rolleyes:

And well done Ads for getting the reference! :flower:

David Franklin
15th-August-2007, 01:12 AM
Having had a look over there, I've gotta say I can understand how TheTramp might confuse you with "steveado" – if he's confused at all.:yeah: I had also (simultaneously and independently) jumped to the same conclusion as Trampy.

Thetruth
15th-August-2007, 01:14 AM
Funnily enough, I don't think I am! Something someone said to me about a name after I'd posted that confirmed my guess. :rolleyes:

And well done Ads for getting the reference! :flower:

As in Ballroom or Latin American there is the social aspect and the competition aspect. The same could perhaps be said of ceroc, although judging by the razzing...........leaves me disappointed. I am sure there are those people who would like to see ceroc excel in the dance world. I would like to see this, but unfortunately, most (not all perhaps) on this forum seem so negative about ceroc being recognised in the dance world or having flashy dancers (who are awesome to watch and learn from). What is wrong with people wanting to achieve? What is wrong with practicing? Anything wrong with being passionate about dancing?
Comments like, "the number of people looking to peacock and display to a minimum" (so no Nigel's or Viktor's please and Lily and David forget them too! not!!) makes me think this person is perhaps envious or jealous of those that work hard at their dancing???????

David Franklin
15th-August-2007, 01:29 AM
Deja-vu, anyone? (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/intermediate-corner/13489-ceroc-competitions-oz-2.html#post400771) (or even, gasp, history repeating itself...)

Thetruth
15th-August-2007, 03:25 AM
Deja-vu, anyone? (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/intermediate-corner/13489-ceroc-competitions-oz-2.html#post400771) (or even, gasp, history repeating itself...)

Someone got the connection (joke)..................well done David Franklin!!

Thetruth
15th-August-2007, 03:27 AM
As in Ballroom or Latin American there is the social aspect and the competition aspect. The same could perhaps be said of ceroc, although judging by the razzing...........leaves me disappointed. I am sure there are those people who would like to see ceroc excel in the dance world. I would like to see this, but unfortunately, most (not all perhaps) on this forum seem so negative about ceroc being recognised in the dance world or having flashy dancers (who are awesome to watch and learn from). What is wrong with people wanting to achieve? What is wrong with practicing? Anything wrong with being passionate about dancing?
Comments like, "the number of people looking to peacock and display to a minimum" (so no Nigel's or Viktor's please and Lily and David forget them too! not!!) makes me think this person is perhaps envious or jealous of those that work hard at their dancing???????

Trampy must be resting...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

TheTramp
15th-August-2007, 07:16 AM
Trampy must be resting...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Nah.

I've said what I had to say. There's no point in saying it again :D

Thetruth
16th-August-2007, 03:00 AM
It seems that my truth isn't yours. But you always have had your own opinions on how things should be

Why is this a problem????? So someone who disagrees with you, would obviously have their own opinion. You seem to become high horsed perhaps.................. :wink: No need to reply, dont want you repeating yourself now.

TheTramp
16th-August-2007, 03:39 AM
Why is this a problem????? So someone who disagrees with you, would obviously have their own opinion. You seem to become high horsed perhaps..................

At what point did I say it was a problem?

However, it is an interesting point that your choice of name seems to imply that you think that what you have to say is 'the truth'. Of course, this may well have been tongue in cheek. Or may not! :rolleyes:

My original comment was merely a reference to that :flower:

You are of course welcome to your own opinion, and quite entitled to put it forward. Wouldn't suggest any different....

David Bailey
16th-August-2007, 09:21 AM
Why is this a problem????? So someone who disagrees with you, would obviously have their own opinion. You seem to become high horsed perhaps.................. :wink:
I've had many many disagreements with Trampy, over issues which seemed Really Important at the time.

But I've never had a sense of him pursuing an "agenda", which I get from some of your comments.

TheTramp
16th-August-2007, 10:52 AM
I've had many many disagreements with Trampy, over issues which seemed Really Important at the time.

Yeah. And it's always been big of you to acknowledge in every case that I'm right. Anyhow, to be fair, it's only been 'many'. You've not been wrong that often. :flower:

David Bailey
16th-August-2007, 11:05 AM
Yeah. And it's always been big of you to acknowledge in every case that I'm right.
I know, I'm good that way. Better than you, at least :na:

Hmmm, what was this thread about again?

Thetruth
17th-August-2007, 03:54 AM
I've had many many disagreements with Trampy, over issues which seemed Really Important at the time.

But I've never had a sense of him pursuing an "agenda", which I get from some of your comments.

LOL!! Agenda! Why? It is quite obvious people in the ceroc dance world like things to move sloooooowww!! So that all can keep up? I've no agenda, other than to see Ceroc grow, perhaps I am impatient, but I would like to see the growth move a tad faster. That is all, the rest you can conjure up in your imagination and have a fun time pursuing.
Truly, thoughts on this forum make me, (laugh alot also), think it is more about personal interests than improving the dance style. Some people are better adapt at change than others, but it seems the ones not adapt at growth and change are the ones mostly complaining on this forum. Now thats an agenda!!

David Bailey
17th-August-2007, 09:11 AM
LOL!! Agenda! Why? It is quite obvious people in the ceroc dance world like things to move sloooooowww!!
Yes, I think there's a reasonable point in that; Ceroc has not historically (up until a few years ago, basically) been very innovative in the UK, it was resting on its laurels. Although it has shown more signs of life in the past couple of years, with weekenders, WCS, Utopia and so on.

And I also think that the development of MJ as a dance form has been the slower because of the presence of Ceroc - Ceroc's grip on teaching has meant that it's difficult to spread innovations in dancing, compared to other living dances such as salsa and AT. And I don't see that changing - that's just a consequence of the way the Ceroc organisation dominates the MJ scene.

Gadget
23rd-August-2007, 02:10 PM
As in Ballroom or Latin American there is the social aspect and the competition aspect. The same could perhaps be said of ceroc, although judging by the razzing...........leaves me disappointed.
Yes; there is a "performance" side to the dance where you can concentrate on geometry, where the audience/judge is and how to present yourself to them, how to form "nice lines", how to choriograph micro-routines and aerobatic moves that look impressive to spectators.... There are workshops that cover these skills. But this is for a very small minority of people when you look at the number of people who actually dance MJ.


I am sure there are those people who would like to see ceroc excel in the dance world. I would like to see this, but unfortunately, most (not all perhaps) on this forum seem so negative about ceroc being recognised in the dance world
I would like to see Ceroc excel in the real world - I don't give a monkeys about how it is perceived in the dance world. Any negativity reported from the dance world I have heard seems to be directed towards Ceroc; most folk I have heard on here tend to advocate trying new dance styles and broadening their dance experinance- which is a positive nod towards the rest of the dance world. :confused:


~ or having flashy dancers (who are awesome to watch and learn from). What is wrong with people wanting to achieve? What is wrong with practicing? Anything wrong with being passionate about dancing?Absolutley nothing: practice and improvement is what I am advocating - I just see this as being a seperate entity from actually competing.
I don't need to be watched, judged, rated, and compared to any other dancer. I don't need the target of a competition to encourage me to practice - my passion is strong enough that I don't need this additional motivation.
{... or perhaps I find so many flaws in my dancing that there is enough to keep me occupied without giving myself a deadline to sort them all out by ;)}


Comments like, "the number of people looking to peacock and display to a minimum" (so no Nigel's or Viktor's please and Lily and David forget them too! not!!) makes me think this person is perhaps envious or jealous of those that work hard at their dancing???????
I am envious of good dancers. Those who move with natural ability, style and grace. I wish I had the physique, suppleness, and command of my own body to match some dancers. Practice and hard work takes some people up to the level that others naturally enter at. I may be envious of tallent, I may wish to have the skills of other dancers, but I am not jealous of anyone who feels they need to grand-stand to dance well.
I dance for my partner, myself and the music; I could be dancing alone, in a crowd, with an audience, on a stage, ... I'm not dancing to impress them, I'm dancing to share the music with my partner. :flower:

Thetruth
24th-August-2007, 03:08 AM
I am envious of good dancers. Those who move with natural ability, style and grace. I wish I had the physique, suppleness, and command of my own body to match some dancers. Practice and hard work takes some people up to the level that others naturally enter at. I may be envious of tallent, I may wish to have the skills of other dancers, but I am not jealous of anyone who feels they need to grand-stand to dance well.
I dance for my partner, myself and the music; I could be dancing alone, in a crowd, with an audience, on a stage, ... I'm not dancing to impress them, I'm dancing to share the music with my partner. :flower:

Natural ability is only enhanced with hard work. Nobody and I mean nobody is a natural dancer. They just have athletic abilities that they worked hard at obtaining. I was called a natural basketball player...............but someone forgot to mentioned that I practiced 4 hours everyday. Viktor (no disrespect) is not a natural dancer. He is a talented hard working dancer. He didn't just decide to dance one day. He worked at it like you and I do. Fred Astaire wasn't a natural either, but a dedicated dancer. Pele wasn't a natural footballer, but a hard working footballer, Michael Jordan was no natural (its just that god decided to play basketball) and want to be MJ.
However, you are right in that dancing is to share with your partner....................and that is the most important part of dancing........:yeah:

adss
28th-August-2007, 04:55 AM
A couple in Vic at the Brisbane comp of 2006 have disappeared from the ceroc competition circuit. I believe because they were disappointed in being overlook continually. I, believe in Brisbane they should have placed 2nd or at the least 3rd. But did not place at all. I hope they are still dancing as they were developing a wonderful masculine/feminine style.....the guys name is Allan not sure of his partners name though.

Hi,
Allan is still dancing socially most Wednesday nights. Anita and Allan simply decided that they wanted a break from competition as they have been at it for quite a few years. Anita has taken the opportunity to try out other dance styles.

A

Thetruth
28th-August-2007, 07:22 AM
Hi,
Allan is still dancing socially most Wednesday nights. Anita and Allan simply decided that they wanted a break from competition as they have been at it for quite a few years. Anita has taken the opportunity to try out other dance styles.

A

Thanks for the update................I really enjoyed their style at comps and thought they were improving at a rapid rate from comp to comp. I was hoping they would place in Brisbane 06 but unfortunately, the judges didnt see it that way. I hope they compete again, they were, I believe, looking like they were ready for huge advances in the partnership. And would challenge the likes of Clinton Glasgow (who has worked on his style recently but still needs to work on other areas of his dance...like posture and the intimate connection with his dance partner). I thought Allan's style was very masculine and Anita's very feminine. Thats why I like the way their connection was developing. Adss please tell them they have fans in Sydney................:cool:

Martin
28th-August-2007, 12:42 PM
Dont know of a steveado on the Aussie forum. However, whats with the comment "bit of ShirleyBassey and the Propellerheads"?


Don't be an ass Steve (ex Steveado).

To fully lie is bad form. To be vauge, well that keeps people guessing.

Thing is, it is ok to stop posting on Aussie forum coz it can seem a bit 'closed group' and Ceroc Scotland is more 'open'. So do keep posting. :respect:

There is no defined footwork, simply 'not a clear representation of another dance form'.

If you want footwork, stick to other dance styles. :flower:

I respect your continuing training in lots of styles and I am sure it will pay off at some point and you will be seen as advanced in Ceroc soon. :cheers: :cheers:

Thetruth
29th-August-2007, 02:30 AM
I respect your continuing training in lots of styles and I am sure it will pay off at some point and you will be seen as advanced in Ceroc soon. :cheers: :cheers:
LOL!:rofl: and LOL! :rofl: :cheers: Shaun Dark, Mark Harding, consider me way advanced, so obviously your comment is sarcasm like NZ Monkey advised me to look out in others posts.

Martin
29th-August-2007, 04:57 PM
LOL!:rofl: and LOL! :rofl: :cheers: Shaun Dark, Mark Harding, consider me way advanced, so obviously your comment is sarcasm like NZ Monkey advised me to look out in others posts.

That is great :cheers: If 2 people consider you advanced I am sure it will not be too long before others form the same opinion. :respect:

Keep up the good work. :hug:

Thetruth
30th-August-2007, 03:41 AM
If 2 people consider you advanced I am sure it will not be too long before others form the same opinion. :respect:

At the end of the day it doesn't matter to me what you...........think about my dancing.
I have my own opinion of yours, but like buttholes, everyone has one(opinion), and its only crap coming out.anyway. On the scale of things, who are you and I in the dance world?........................nobodies...:wink: But I love to dance and I feel the music surge through me when on the dance floor with my special partner and nothing else matters.:waycool: