Smoking and Dancing don't mix

[Andy McGregor]

Over the last few weeks I've been to 4 different classes and a dance where I've danced in a smoky atmosphere:sick:

Three of the classes had tables at the side of the dance floor where people are free to smoke the other had an open door to a smoking room where smoke spilled into the room where we were dancing - the same as at the dance mentioned above.

There are many reasons why I don't like this and will NOT be going there again. Here are a few;

1. One of the health warnings on cigarette packets says "Smoking seriously harms you and others around you". That means you run the risk of being "seriously harmed" by dancing on a dance floor with smokers around it. And before you say that is just government propaganda ask youself this - wouldn't the tobacco companies, with their smart lawyers, stop this warning if there were evidence it weren't true?

2. Dancing in a smoky environment makes my throat dry/sore and sometimes makes my eyes stream. Also, it can make people cough. What do you do when someone coughs into their hand then offers it to you for the next dance?:sick:

3. Dancing in a smoky environment makes your /boyfriend/girlfriend/wife/husband/new date smell of smoke. Not nice to snuggle up to when you get home:sick:

4. Dance/class organisers who allow smoking are telling you that they don't care about your health. They must know the risks and have chosen to ignore them because they want the smokers £6. I think smokers will continue to attend - if everything else is good about the night they'll come and just smoke outside or in a separate smoking room.

5. Dancing is as energetic as many sports. It would be inconceivable to permit smoking at the side of a badminton court, in your gym or at the side of your local swimming pool. When you get out of breath from exertion you take deep breaths. It's unacceptable to me for that lungful to contain cigarette smoke:sick: A few years ago I asked Ceroc HQ why they didn't have a No Smoking policy - they said it was because they try to create a 'Nightclub' environment. With this in mind, it's no surprise that 2 of the 3 classes I recently went to where smoking was next to the floor were Ceroc classes:devil:

6. A partner who's just smoked is smelly. It's not enjoyable to dance with them.

7-999 There are hundreds of reasons to not smoke, either actively or passively. Insert your reason to not breathe tobacco smoke when dancing here...

There is a spurious argument in favor of smoking and passive smoking. It goes something like this (it's 5 & 6 & 7 & 8) "I take a risk every time I cross the road. Smoking/passive smoking is just another risk". This argument doesn't stand even the slightest analysis. You cross the road because you need to be the other side of it and you take a calculated risk to do so. You don't cross where it's dangerous or where people have been run over or injured if you know that's happened. In passively breathing cigarette smoke you are taking a risk you don't need to (feel free to pm me if you can't find an alternative 'Non smoking' venue) and it's hard to calculate the risk you're taking and even more tellingly, you're taking a risk that you've been warned will cause you "serious harm".

I am now taking a stand. I will not give my money to any class/dance organiser who expects me to breathe smoke while I'm dancing. If I don't know the venue's smoking policy I'll 'phone ahead and find out.

If we all did the same and voted with our feet we would see a change in policy at many dance classes. At the moment we're slavishly following the crowd and putting our health at risk. Dance/class orgaisers please take note. If I see no change I will start a website where I name and shame you:mad: I might even produce some t-shirts with the above health warning & listing the smoking venues in the SE then give them to my dancing friends:devil:

p.s. Oops! I've just noticed that I look like I'm smoking a pipe in my Avatar - it's a wine cork with an orange stick in it that I used as a prop in the Ceroc Championships. I do not smoke and never have - the original Popeye would be alive today if he hadn't smoked that pipe:waycool:

[Gadget]

After similar discussion <a href="http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=529">here</a>, Franck has made all the venues in his franchise operate a "no smoking" policy.

Summary: 93% said all venues should be smoke free, 4% said give us a break about this anti smoking stuff and 2% didn't care.

[Franck]

Good points above Andy :D

I agree with you, and I refer you to this earlier thread: http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=529

Since then most of the Scottish venues have been no-smoking, though recently, We have been 'obliged to allow smoking at one of the Aberdeen venues.
The reasoning from the venue was that they were a social club where smoking was permitted. We argued that we hired the hall for a private function and didn't want smokers in there.
We won temporarily, but recently, they have demanded we allowed smoking again, as smokers would go and smoke near the entrance and make a mess / too much smoke :what: :confused:
So now we must have a smoking corner in the hall itself...
This is not ideal at all, and I would love to just vote with my feet, but unfortunately, good venues (and this one is great) are few and far between and I'm afraid we need them more than they need us!

Good luck on your crusade,

Franck.

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Franck
Good points above Andy :D

I agree with you, and I refer you to this earlier thread: http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=529

Since then most of the Scottish venues have been no-smoking, though recently, We have been 'obliged to allow smoking at one of the Aberdeen venues.
The reasoning from the venue was that they were a social club where smoking was permitted. We argued that we hired the hall for a private function and didn't want smokers in there.
We won temporarily, but recently, they have demanded we allowed smoking again, as smokers would go and smoke near the entrance and make a mess / too much smoke :what: :confused:
So now we must have a smoking corner in the hall itself...
This is not ideal at all, and I would love to just vote with my feet, but unfortunately, good venues (and this one is great) are few and far between and I'm afraid we need them more than they need us!

Good luck on your crusade,

Franck.

I had this one with Worthing Hospital. They had people smoking around the entrances and I gave them a very hard time as a local politician. Eventually, after threats of court action (to be funded by ASH) a solution was reached. The hospital now have a smoking room for patients, one for staff and a large bus shelter for people to smoke outside. It's all very clean and tidy and keeps the smoke in tightly defined areas. The only problem was that it cost a lot of money to put up the bus shelter. But it sends a far better health message than the entrance to a hospital littered with smoking nurses and doctors:what:

[Dance Demon]

The woman who operates the bar at Westfield halls where we run Route 66 always used to put ashtrays on the tables, and smokers felt free to smoke in the hall. After a number of people complained, we decided to make the dance hall a smoke free zone.It makes sense really, as because dance is a cardiovascular aerobic excercise, people tend to breathe in more air than if they are just sitting around, and if the room is filled with smoke, their lungs get filled with smoke also. not very pleasant.
Dancing should be a healthy pastime don't you think?

[Basil Brush (Forum Plant)]

by the way, why do they spell it smokEy bacon crisps?

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Basil Brush
by the way, why do they spell it smokEy bacon crisps?

I checked the spelling in the 8th edition of the Oxford English dictionary as 'smoky' looked odd. There actually was an example of 'smoky bacon' in the entry for 'smoky'. When I checked 'smokey' on my Word spell checker it gave 'Smokey' as an option of correct spelling. My guess is that 'Smokey' is a brand name which is why it starts with a capital letter.

I have no objection to people eating crips near me while I'm dancing - no matter what the flavour or how they spell it:wink:

But back to the smoking. Last night (Tuesday), as my usual Tuesday venue was closed I went to the City Gate Centre in Brighton. This organiser is the one who had the smoky dance mentioned at the start of this thread. I asked him politely if he was going to continue to allow smoking at his dances. He got very agitated and told me 'You're a troublemaking prat, go f**k yourself":really: Prior to this I'd spoken about it with one of his loyal crew. She was friendly and rational and completely unprompted she actually used the crossing the road comparison I menioned at the start of this thread:wink: She's normally really nice but obviously has a blind spot as she's a smoker just like the organiser.

I suppose this is the start of the 'naming and shaming' I mentioned earlier. And I'm not enjoying it at all:(

[TheTramp]

Smoking and Dancing don't mixI want to know. Just what does mix with Smoking???? Can't think of anything myself.

Steve

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by TheTramp
I want to know. Just what does mix with Smoking???? Can't think of anything myself.

Steve

Cancer, lung disease, breathlessness, smokers cough, heart attack, bad breath, sore throat, etc, etc.

[Paul F]

I would stick up a sign saying

"If you must smoke, please dont breathe out!"

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Andy:
Cancer, lung disease, breathlessness, smokers cough, heart attack, bad breath, sore throat, etc, etc.Good point!!

Steve

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
He got very agitated and told me 'You're a troublemaking prat, go f**k yourself":really:

I suppose this is the start of the 'naming and shaming' I mentioned earlier. And I'm not enjoying it at all:(

That sort of attitude isn't going to win him many friends so don't be bothered about possibly shaming him. There is a valid response to this question, that of: 'my customers wouldnt come if it wasn't a smoking venue' you couldnt blame a business for saying that - however thats only likely to be true in pubs , not dance venues :).

[Sheepman]

Andy, I think you'd do better to only put on your t-shirt the venues that don't allow smoking, you wouldn't want to publicise a smoky venue that someone had never heard of, or never thought of going to before.
Or maybe printed front and back - good and bad?

I have a lingering unpleasant memory of doing blues with a heavy smoker, I almost choked on a faceful of smoky hair. I'm sure she was a wonderful dancer, but I can't recall anything about that.

Venues with smoking bans, or where I've never noticed a smoke problem:- Hipsters, Fleet (JiveBug), Gt Bookham (JagJive), Twyford (Ceroc), Camber.

Places I avoid:-
100 Club, (though I love live bands, that was what first lead me into dancing), City Gate Brighton (I've not been for years, but now I know about their smoking policy, I won't even consider it).

Greg

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Sheepman
Andy, I think you'd do better to only put on your t-shirt the venues that don't allow smoking, you wouldn't want to publicise a smoky venue that someone had never heard of, or never thought of going to before.
Or maybe printed front and back - good and bad?

Greg

I will only go to non-smoking venues so that's not really a problem.


Originally posted by Sheepman
I have a lingering unpleasant memory of doing blues with a heavy smoker, I almost choked on a faceful of smoky hair. I'm sure she was a wonderful dancer, but I can't recall anything about that.Greg

One of the problems with smoking dance partners is that you can't hold your breath for a whole track. You can't always tell they're a smoker when you ask them to dance. Also, some smokers do not smell at all and might even smell nice - so there's not excuse for stinking of smoke. I was recently surprised to find out that one of my favourite dance partners does actually smoke - and she always smells lovely and dances brilliantly:waycool:


Originally posted by Sheepman
Venues with smoking bans, or where I've never noticed a smoke problem:- Hipsters, Fleet (JiveBug), Gt Bookham (JagJive), Twyford (Ceroc), Camber.

Places I avoid:-
100 Club, (though I love live bands, that was what first lead me into dancing), City Gate Brighton (I've not been for years, but now I know about their smoking policy, I won't even consider it).
Greg

The City Gate Centre itself is a Non-Smoking building. But you can still smell smoke on the way to the loos. It must blow up from the smokers standing around the entrance on a Tuesday. I've never smelt it at the class on a Monday and never on the dance floor on either night. The particular person who organises smoking dances is Jeff Jasper of Dance Party/Hustle Inc. These smoking dances are at Hove Town Hall in the Banqueting Suite, which is the small hall and they cost £10 to get in. The last one I went to had a lesson that didn't start 'til about 9pm and freestyle that lasted for about 2 hours. Let's see, small hall, health risk from smoky rooms, rude organiser, 2 hours of freestlye - all for £10:confused: :devil: :tears:

Yippee, I'm off to Hipsters tonight. After last night it's going from the ridiculous to the sublime :D :D :D

[Dreadful Scathe]

Speaking of smoking - i found this amusing

how to stop smoking (http://www.theonion.com/onion3325/nicarest.html)

[Dance Demon]

Saw this once, strangely enough on a chalkboard in a pub......

Cigarette smoke is the residue of your pleasure.
It pollutes my air, invades my space, and permeates my clothes and hair.
All this is done without my permission.

I also have a pleasure.
I enjoy several pints of lager from time to time.
The residue of my pleasure is urine.
How would you feel if I stood on a table, and p***ed alll over your clothes and hair without your permission ?

sums it up really................

[Pammy]

Originally posted by Sheepman
I have a lingering unpleasant memory of doing blues with a heavy smoker, I almost choked on a faceful of smoky hair. I'm sure she was a wonderful dancer, but I can't recall anything about that.

Funny you should say that, but theres a man who goes to Hipsters who I avoid dancing with because afterwards you're hands stink of cigarette smoke. He must be a really heavy smoker as it's so strong. You feel like you've been contaminated. You feel almost sticky from the tar; very unpleasant! :sad:

Shame really, because he probably doesn't realise himself how bad it is.

Px

[Andy McGregor]

Yippee!

I went to Hipsters last night and had a great time:D

It's a while since I've been and it was like meeting up with an old friend. There was one difference. There were loads of good dancers there as you'd expect. But there seemed to be more women over than usual - and they were absolutely lovely too:kiss: Oh yes, they could dance too:wink: One regular had her strappy top come completely undone while I was dancing with her, which could have been nice/funny - then, when I was dancing with a different partner she spotted David B and with a partner whose skirt had just come off:waycool: I didn't see the unskirting but I did notice that it was the same girl. With there being so many women over she obviously thought she needed to do something different to get asked to dance. Come on girls, try it, this really works:devil: :devil: :devil:

Oh yes, and not a whiff of smoke:D :D :D

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
I went to Hipsters last night and had a great time:D


You there next week, Andy ? or are you one of the hordes going to Beach Boogie ? :)

[Paul F]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Yippee!

I went to Hipsters last night and had a great time:D


A fab night last night. So much more room than on a tuesday.



[B]But there seemed to be more women over than usual - and they were absolutely lovely too:kiss: Oh yes, they could dance too:wink: With there being so many women over she obviously thought she needed to do something different to get asked to dance. Come on girls, try it, this really works:devil: :devil: :devil: [B]

i was chatting to a girl in Birmingham who mentioned that Hipsters sounded like a strip joint!!!

Im a two night a week man now :sorry

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
You there next week, Andy ? or are you one of the hordes going to Beach Boogie ? :)

Of course I'm going to Hipsters next week. I'm just going to Beach Boogie for the big Saturday night.

It should be fantastic next Wednesday once word gets out among the girls how to attract more dance partners:devil:

Maybe we should keep Hipsters on a Wednesday quiet. Good music, teacing, dancers, attractive women and a nice floor with room to move :wink:

And NO SMOKING:waycool:

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
One regular had her strappy top come completely undone while I was dancing with her, which could have been nice/funny - then, when I was dancing with a different partner she spotted David B and with a partner whose skirt had just come off:
How come I spotted none of this - as usual!:mad:

Andy, it was a good night, but I still prefer Tuesday's music, had a nice dance with Sue, but thought how much better it could have been to one of Jon's favourites. I said to Sue as we were catching breath, "I don't mind if I never hear that one again."

Greg

[Paul F]

Originally posted by Sheepman
How come I spotted none of this - as usual!:mad:

Andy, it was a good night, but I still prefer Tuesday's music, had a nice dance with Sue, but thought how much better it could have been to one of Jon's favourites. I said to Sue as we were catching breath, "I don't mind if I never hear that one again."

Greg

There were a couple of tracks played last night (including one i danced with Lily too) that were so so fast. I wouldnt mind but there were no simultaneous lindy classes going on!

Some great tunes but , as i said elsewhere, some very dubious ones

[Pammy]

Look at you lot; typical men! One mention of a top coming off and you're all posting ! (come to think of it, so am I :what: )

Shame on you Sheepy!:wink:

Px

[Sheepman]

Paul - that fast one may have also been the interminably long one I danced with Andy's better half (Sue) to.


Originally posted by Pammy
Shame on you Sheepy
Not guilty - you KNOW there is one person's top I'm avoiding seeing!

G x

[Pammy]

Originally posted by Sheepman
Not guilty - you KNOW there is one person's top I'm avoiding seeing!

Yes, but I wouldn't class that as being a top, more of a crop.

Genetically modified do you think?

Bet you've bought it though! I saw you checking your loose change on Tuesday! :wink:

Px

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by Pammy
more of a crop.

Genetically modified do you think?

More a whole harvest, though I hate to think what happens at harvest festival!
I think a few chromosomes short of the set.

G x

[Pammy]

Originally posted by Sheepman
More a whole harvest, though I hate to think what happens at harvest festival!

:what: :what: :what:


I think a few chromosomes short of the set.

Only a few!!! :wink:

Px

[Rachel]

Pammy, were you at Hipsters, too, last night? We seem to keep going to the same venues, but never get to see each other. Isn't it a shame there's so little time for socialising when there's dancing to be done?
Rachel

[Pammy]

Originally posted by Rachel
Pammy, were you at Hipsters, too, last night? We seem to keep going to the same venues, but never get to see each other. Isn't it a shame there's so little time for socialising when there's dancing to be done?
Rachel

I was there on Tuesday. Will be there next Tuesday and I think you should come, if only to meet D.S. who is coming :grin:

If you're going to BB I'll see you there too :nice:

Px

[Rachel]

Originally posted by Pammy
I was there on Tuesday. Will be there next Tuesday and I think you should come, if only to meet D.S. who is coming :grin:

If you're going to BB I'll see you there too :nice:

Px We missed Tuesday (fell asleep - ooops! - and by the time we woke up, we only had time to go to the local venue. Which was actually really good.)

We'll be there next Tues, though - met DS at Blackpool, and also last weekend in Perth, and v much looking forward to seeing him down our way. I'll look out for you, too, to say hello again.
R.

[xSalsa_Angelx]

Hmmmmm most people that do Ceroc are either non smokers or ex smokers,

Probably going to make a few enemies here, but only voicing my opinion.

I suppose its good that ceroc venues should be non smoking, but held in a public bar, no one can really stop you can they?


but going a ceroc venue where you are there all night, I dont think they should stop you,

why not have one section for the smokers and one for non smokers like they do in restaurants..??

I will be stopping smoking soon, but not at the moment, not untill there's a bun in the oven.. :D

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by xSalsa_Angelx
Hmmmmm most people that do Ceroc are either non smokers or ex smokers,

Probably going to make a few enemies here, but only voicing my opinion.

I suppose its good that ceroc venues should be non smoking, but held in a public bar, no one can really stop you can they?


but going a ceroc venue where you are there all night, I dont think they should stop you,

why not have one section for the smokers and one for non smokers like they do in restaurants..??

I will be stopping smoking soon, but not at the moment, not untill there's a bun in the oven.. :D

Good luck with quitting. Why wait 'til you're expecting? Having worked in the field of addiction a few years ago I know that nicotine is very, very addictive. That means quitting will cause your system great stress - why endure that stress at a time when you need all your strength and energy?

The restaurant thing doesn't work. They just divide a single room into smoking and no smoking areas. How often have you booked a no smoking table only to find it's right next to a smoking table. and then had to eat your meal in the stream of "serious harm" which comes from a few feet away. I already know that no-one is going to be smoking at my table so why book a no-smoking table? In the above circumstance I now ask to be moved to the smoking table because it's next to a no-smoking table:devil:

Of course smokers need somewhere to go. So do people who don't want to breathe tobacco smoke. The answer is to go to venues that care for their customers and cater for both. And to stay away from the rest until they get their act together. I'm still sticking to my guns. I will not attend any venue where I'm expected to accept breathing cigarette smoke on the dance floor as I'm advised it could cause me "serious harm" (see the start of this thread). And it looks like the majority of people 'hate' smoky dance floors.

Would any venue owners/Ceroc franchisees like to defend their decision to allow smoking around their dance floors, in the same room as the dancing, etc - to use football speak, it's all gone quiet over there:devil:

[Andy McGregor]

Come on you organisers. Tell me you've changed your smoking policy.

I'm not alone. Of the 43 keen dancers who've voted 84% don't want do dance on smoky dance floors. And the thread has been viewed 835 times. That's more than just about any recent thread so dancers must think it's important.

So, organisers, here is your challenge. Tell me you won't have tobacco smoke wafting across your dance floor by the end of September. During October I'll ask Forum members to let me know where it's still smoky and start naming and shaming.

Please remember I'm not doing this to cause trouble to anyone. I'm doing it because I think it's time someone did. I believe that it would be inauthentic not to. I'm also taking this stand because I care for my own health and that of my dance partners.

And before someone says "if you don't like it don't go", that's precisely what I am saying. But I'd like to know before I turn up and I think my friends should be able to make the same informed choice.

[spindr]

Andy wrote: I think my friends should be able to make the same informed choice.

Hiya Andy,
One tip is to look for venues held at schools, e.g. Mojive dance at the Horndean campus and Friday Freestyles at the Admiral Lord Nelson at Southsea --- for obvious reasons these are non-smoking. Although, there's usually a group of dancers smoking behind the bikesheds.

Neil.

P.S. The worst venue I've been to was at a working men's club --- it's a smallish floor, but there was a complete wall of smoke down one side. There were two bored dancers, or more likely bored non-dancing significant others. What was even more unacceptable were the two bar staff, having a quick puff and enjoying watching the cabaret as everyone danced through the smokey haze.
P.P.S. I take it the Brighton comp will be non-smoking?

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by spindr
P.P.S. I take it the Brighton comp will be non-smoking?

The Brighton Competition will be non-smoking.

And on that subject, the competition is now being run by Graham and Sarah. Now that they've got back together it seemed obvious that their partnership, as two Sussex dance business owners, should be the ones to run Britroc so I've stepped aside to let that happen.

I'm still in charge of the 'McGregor Method' for judging as that keeps it completely independent and makes it possible for others to use the method for their competition. I'll be setting up a website with it on when I get a moment.

And, while I'm on here and to keep the on thread, I've, yet again, made the mistake of going to a venue where you can smell smoke on the dance floor. Last night (Wednesday) in Worthing, they've got a no smoking hall but open doors from the smoking bar :sick:

[TheTramp]

Can't someone close the door??

Steve

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Can't someone close the door??

Steve

You would have thought so. I've asked and been told I was making a fuss about nothing :mad:

[TheTramp]

Why can't you close the door?

Steve

[Pammy]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Why can't you close the door?

Steve

Under those stuffed tights on his arms, he's just a big girls blouse! :wink: :wink:

Px

[TheTramp]

You've obviously not met Andy then.

He's actually a small girl's blouse :wink:

Steve

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Why can't you close the door?

Steve

I'm told it's needed for air to circulate from outside. There are some outside doors in the room the other side of the bar. The doors from that room to the bar a left open and so is the door from the bar to the dance floor.

There is plenty of other ventilation. I expect I'm just seen as a whinger and ignored. Which I would prefer to the reaction I received from Jeff Jasper who, when I asked him if he was going to ban smoking, told me "Go f**k yourself". I've been trying...

[spindr]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
The Brighton Competition will be non-smoking.

And on that subject, the competition is now being run by Graham and Sarah. Now that they've got back together it seemed obvious that their partnership, as two Sussex dance business owners, should be the ones to run Britroc so I've stepped aside to let that happen.


That's a shame Andy, I was hoping that you'd introduce me to "Warrick Brown" from CSI (http://www.cbs.com/primetime/csi/main.shtml) -- and even more hoping you'd introduce me to the young lady almost wearing the shiny dress -- as featured on http://www.britroc.com/.

I hope this isn't a case of false advertising? :)

Neil.

[Pammy]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Which I would prefer to the reaction I received from Jeff Jasper who, when I asked him if he was going to ban smoking, told me "Go f**k yourself".

He said that? :what:

Blimey, there's no need for that sort of approach is there!?!?

Px

[Pammy]

Originally posted by spindr
I hope this isn't a case of false advertising? :)

Yes, maybe next year you could have Sheepy, completely with wooly vest, the Wiz (with his shoes), me, avec toilet roll/shrunken head, Trampy as Obe Wan Kenobe (old or young version depending on the wind chill factor that night) and DS as Pappa Smurf!

Px :wink:

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by spindr
That's a shame Andy, I was hoping that you'd introduce me to "Warrick Brown" from CSI (http://www.cbs.com/primetime/csi/main.shtml) -- and even more hoping you'd introduce me to the young lady almost wearing the shiny dress -- as featured on http://www.britroc.com/.

I hope this isn't a case of false advertising? :)

Neil.

The couple in the picture came with the website template. This picture was obviously taken in 1974. The girl was 24 then. She is now 52 years old and will be entering the Seniors section and has changed a lot:wink:

I still have the dress and am interviewing for a replacement :devil:

[TheTramp]

Really??

Last I heard, you were planning on wearing it yourself.... :devil:

Steve

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Really??

Last I heard, you were planning on wearing it yourself.... :devil:

Steve

I'll have to buy matching shoes and handbag first:wink:

[Andy McGregor]

I went to Ceroc in Rochester for the first time last night. The venue was quite smoky so I wrote this email. Hopefully we'll see a reasoned argument or even a change of policy :D


Dear Virginia

I visited Rochester Ceroc for the first time last night as I was at a meeting down the road. The actual dancing aspect of the night was very good, the teaching was of a high quality the music was a varied and well chosen mix and the floor was very nice. Although I only knew one person I was made to feel welcome by the other dancers.

But I was disappointed to find that there was a distinct smell of cigarette smoke on the dance area. This is caused by the smokers actually smoking at tables around the dance floor. One guy was even sat with the back of his chair to the edge of the dance floor itself half turned to watch the dancers and holding his smoking cigarette stylishly over his shoulder so it was actually sticking out causing dancers to divert around it and creating a stream of smoke which travelled amongst the dancers.

One of the current health warnings on cigarette packets says 'smoking seriously harms you and others around you'. This means that by dancing on your dance floor and being 'around' smoking I was risking 'serious harm'. I do not know the level of that risk but there must be one. Whatever the risk it is one that most non-smokers have chosen not to take.

I have started a thread on the Scottich Ceroc Forum at http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1344 . This thread has been visited 1144 times to date which gives an idea of the level of feeling this is about this subject. There is a poll on this tread where 83% of those responding say they don't like smoky dance floors. Scottish Ceroc conducted a poll some time ago as well. As a result of this poll they banned smoking in all of their venues.

I have also been to other venues of yours, Croydon, Bromley and Maidstone. These also have a smoking problem. As things currently stand I will not return to any venue which has smoky dance floors. The only one of your venues that doesn't seem to suffer is Croydon. Although there is smoking in the adjoining bar it doesn't seem to drift onto the floor itself.

Please don't feel that I'm singling you our or being confrontational. I have also been to a new class in Dartford which allows smoking and told them very much the same thing as I'm telling you. It is your choice as the owner and operator of your business to decide to allow or ban smoking. But it is also our choice as consumers to stay away if we do not agree with your decisions. I am considering the risk to my health and that of my dancing friends. I will shortly be asking other dancers to help me compile a list of venues that still allow smoking and to recommend alternatives where their health is not put at risk. And in writing to you I'm giving you the opportunity to be on the 'smoke free' list. Times and public opinion have changed and public smoking is now unfashionable so I hope that this email will prompt you to review and change your policy.

I have one simple question I think you will have trouble answering. Why should we go to a venue where we risk 'serious harm', however small the risk, when there are alternative venues that do not allow smoking?

I have also placed this letter on the above thread. You can either reply there or directly to this email. I will place your reply on the thread if you reply to me directly.

Yours sincerely,

Andy McGregor

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
I
Please don't feel that I'm singling you our or being confrontational. I have also been to a new class in Dartford which allows smoking and told them very much the same thing as I'm telling you.

YIPPEE :D :D :D Our first result. As a consequence of this thread and Pammy's on Smoking we've got our first change to give people a smoke free dance floor. And they've even managed it without being confrontational (something I wish I had the diplomacy to do). Below is the relevant bit of a pm I received from Nicky, one of the organisers of the new class in Dartford mentioned above.

However, as they say below, they have lost some dancers as a result, I'm sure this is only short term but it would be lovely if other Forum members could give their support to their venues. The website is at www.danceriviera.com and they have a Thursday at Dartford and a Monday at Swanley - I should have gone there last night and would have if I'd known they'd got a new smoking policy.

"I have read with interest your thread of banning of smoking and I whole-heartedly agree with you.

I spoke to Jim who - although hates smoking just as much as me - he felt that to ban it whilst we're still trying to get people to our venues would be financially draining if they chose not to come to us. Anyway, I've done a quick count of 'regular' customers who are smokers and they amount to around 10 out of a potential 90 people per week.

At our Swanley venue, there is a separate bar area and we've asked people to smoke in there and not around the dance floor. At the Dartford venue, we have put ashtrays outside of the venue and for the moment have politely asked people to smoke outside (rather than use the word 'ban' so soon). They have moaned and said that this is their only social night a week and they're not allowed to smoke everywhere else they go - work, restaurants etc, but most have been 'ok', not very accomodating.

Since I've mentioned the non-smoking thing, 5 people haven't returned. Now this may not sound a lot, but they bring their friends - who've also not returned, so we're losing out at the moment. Of course we shall get more people, but we also need good experienced dancers who want to come to us, as we have a lot of competition (as you know) in our area.

So, for the last couple of weeks we've been smoke free in our venues."

[Dreadful Scathe]

nice one Andy :)

We sometimes forgot we've got it good up here. i went to a freinds engagement party on Saturday past and the place was full of smoke - it was pretty horrible. The only good thing about it though was at a 'normal' person night out like that, the dance floor is either empty or partly filled with girls and handbags - the dance floor was the least smoky place to be and was always empty enough to escape to :). Still, cough cough cough eh :(.

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
nice one Andy :)

We sometimes forgot we've got it good up here. i went to a freinds engagement party on Saturday past and the place was full of smoke - it was pretty horrible. The only good thing about it though was at a 'normal' person night out like that, the dance floor is either empty or partly filled with girls and handbags - the dance floor was the least smoky place to be and was always empty enough to escape to :). Still, cough cough cough eh :(.

I didn't even know they smoked in 'Smurf':wink:

[TheTramp]

Haven't you seen 'Smoker Smurf'.

I believe that he has a blue face and wheezes a lot! ;D

Steve

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Haven't you seen 'Smoker Smurf'.

I believe that he has a blue face and wheezes a lot! ;D

Steve

I don't think 'Smoker Smurf' lives in Smurf any more.

I spotted a guy matching that description at Rochester. Although the first thing you noticed about him was the smell :sick: rather than the blue face :devil:

I couldn't hear the wheezing and I didn't see him dancing - maybe Virginia's competitors send him along....

[Dreadful Scathe]

That wasn't me :)

'Smurf' can replace any verb or adjective or name anyway (didnt you ever watch the cartoon ;)) so I do indeed live in 'Smurf' and they 'Smurf' the occasional cigarette here too :).


Notice in the Metro today that Edinburgh Uni has banned smoking on campus. The future is now :).

[Dance Demon]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
:).
Notice in the Metro today that Edinburgh Uni has banned smoking on campus. The future is now :).

So do they now have to take their ganja in cake form like Jack & Vera.......the future is pink with yellow & green striped giraffes.........:D

[Grant]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
At the Dartford venue, we have put ashtrays outside of the venue and for the moment have politely asked people to smoke outside (rather than use the word 'ban' so soon). They have moaned and said that this is their only social night a week and they're not allowed to smoke everywhere else they go - work, restaurants etc, but most have been 'ok', not very accomodating.

Since I've mentioned the non-smoking thing, 5 people haven't returned.
this highlights the selfishness of some smokers who demand the right to smoke but are not prepared to move a short distance to give non smokers the right to clean air :mad:
and to top it off below is a quote from the news on the bbc website this morning
'A massive fire which destroyed much of the National Motorcycle Museum near Birmingham, ruining 650 vintage machines, was caused by a "carelessly discarded" cigarette, investigators say.'
:tears: :tears:

grant

[Dreadful Scathe]

Start fining smokers for dropping cigarette butts, that'll sort it. £100 on the spot fine. Same goes for people who spit out chewing gum. They're the 2 most prevelant forms of littering after all.

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Grant
this highlights the selfishness of some smokers who demand the right to smoke but are not prepared to move a short distance to give non smokers the right to clean air :mad:
and to top it off below is a quote from the news on the bbc website this morning
'A massive fire which destroyed much of the National Motorcycle Museum near Birmingham, ruining 650 vintage machines, was caused by a "carelessly discarded" cigarette, investigators say.'
:tears: :tears:

grant

An extreme example of the harm cigarettes can do. I should have added the risk of fire to my list of reasons not to smoke given at the start of this thread :sorry

Just a quick update. I have no news on the Ceroc Kent Smoking issue as I've had no acknowledgement of my email. Maybe I was a bit pushy:innocent: But, in justification, health and avoidance of disease are important and nothing will change unless someone is prepared to do and say something.

[Grant]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
An extreme example of the harm cigarettes can do.
that's not extreme
an earlier story on bbc contained this quote
'Almost five million people died from smoking-related diseases across the world in 2000, researchers estimate.'

now that's extreme :mad:

grant

[Wendy]

Just want to say a big "thank you" to Ceroc (Scotland) and Route 66 for banning smoking near the dance floor.... and what a pleasure to be at Beach Boogie where smoking was banned indoors.

Went to Leroc a couple of weeks ago (only cos it was a Bank holiday honest !!!) and found it very smoky and will not go back unless their policy changes.

It only takes one smoker to make the entire place disgusting for the non smokers...... oh yeh and they ARE killing us too... nice....

Wxxx (holding back !!!)

PS Yes... I used to be a smoker..... and most smokers would have ME stoned cos I am "even worse than the smokers" !!!!... we might be very sensitive, opinionated and have a superiority complex but we are not knowingly killing anybody .... (still holding back !!!!!!)...

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by Grant
that's not extreme
an earlier story on bbc contained this quote
'Almost five million people died from smoking-related diseases across the world in 2000, researchers estimate.'


what about Car accidents - mobile phones are banned as a distraction but are holding lit objects in one hand and driving with the other...NO :)


WENDY: stop holding back :)

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Wendy
Just want to say a big "thank you" to Ceroc (Scotland) and Route 66 for banning smoking near the dance floor.... and what a pleasure to be at Beach Boogie where smoking was banned indoors.

It only takes one smoker to make the entire place disgusting for the non smokers...... oh yeh and they ARE killing us too... nice....

Wxxx (holding back !!!)

.... (still holding back !!!!!!)...

Beach Boogie was great wasn't it? And I know some of the dancers were also smokers. But they are also nice people, they didn't smoke indoors and make us breathe their smoke if we wanted to carry on dancing. Unlike the 'Smoking Smurfs' of Rochester :devil:

What do these people who smoke next to the dance floor think they're doing? Haven't they thought about it or don't they care? If they say they didn't think it was a problem for us they haven't read the rest of this thread.

And, Wendy, please don't hold back. I know I am holding back because I'm a small, weak man who could get punched on the nose:eek: You are a Scottish woman - there is nothing more scary. Who'd take you on and expect to survive:devil:

[Wendy]

Beach Boogie was great !! Even although I missed almost all of the workshops cos I think I was the one who started the dreaded lergy !!!!!! Apologies to everyone else who got it !!!! Almost as bad as blowing smoke in someone's face !!!!

Smokers are drug addicts and I don't hate them as people.... even Azande is a friend of mine !!!! I do hate the smelly hands, the smelly breath and the first hint of smoke in a pub or anywhere else.... and the rest...

I treat dancing as a sport (OK a fun one where flirting is legal!!) and I just can't imagine doing aerobics in a smoky atmosphere.. or going to a gym where there is a table in the corner with half a dozen smokers looking on....

Don't hold back you say ???..... OK IMH(ha ha)O, smoking is a form of Russian roulette.... Can you imagine employing someone or having a relationship with someone who said "I'm just going outside for 5 minutes - have you seen my gun ??" ........ I mean why can't they just be addicted to something constructive... like .... dancing or ... something....:wink:

Wxxx

PS I'm particularly crabby right now cos I am addicted to dancing.. I admit it !!! .... I have injured my knee and I am even more miserable than when I gave up cigarettes.... oh and I used to be addicted to the forum.... oops have I fallen off the wagon I wonder ????? :sick:

[azande]

Originally posted by Wendy
Yes... I used to be a smoker..... and most smokers would have ME stoned cos I am "even worse than the smokers" !!!!...
It's true that I consider reformed smokers WORSE than non smokers; what I never understood was whether they are pontificating from the height of their moral standards and superiority complex or from the height of their guilt for having inflicted the same thing to other people with no qualms at all when they were smokers.


Originally posted by Wendy
Can you imagine employing someone or having a relationship with someone who said "I'm just going outside for 5 minutes - have you seen my gun ??"
Graham, any comments on this?

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by Wendy
and I used to be addicted to the forum....
Giving up is tough isn't it?

Saying Beach Boogie was great is a bit like saying Phil Collins listens to bland stuff when he wants background music! It was fab, brilliant, amazing, (but in some ways last year was better.) Such a shame you were struck down with the bug, but I know someone who arrived with a bug, so you shouldn't claim responsibility yet.

And to get back on thread, I did have a problem with the smokers there!

OK this wasn't major, but I often needed to get outside to cool off, or escape the hoards of women (maybe that was just in my head!) or even for a chat (shock horror). As soon as I was out of the door I was in the smokers territory, needing to gambol off and look like a loony in the field to get fresh air. This applied to both "back" and "front" entrances, but was maybe worse at the back as this was more accessible. Perhaps I'll ask Nina if one of these can be a smoke free area next year.

Please get that injury sorted fast, and make sure you're fit and healthy for Camber!

Greg x

[Pammy]

Originally posted by Sheepman
This applied to both "back" and "front" entrances, but was maybe worse at the back as this was more accessible. He goes quiet for weeks, and then comes back full throttle with a line like that! :rofl:

Well, I might have let it go, had he not have used a word like "Phil Collins" in his last post. I bet that's done it now; the thread won't be moved upstairs, but where Phil's concerned, it should be moved to the recycle bin.

Sorry, I should've said previously that I have a phobia of monkeys and Phil Collins. :wink:

Px

[Graham]

Originally posted by azande
Graham, any comments on this? I certainly wouldn't want to employ or have a relationship with someone who played Russian roulette. But I view smoking as a diluted form of the madness - although the chances of death (assuming you continue to smoke) are higher, it does not kill you instantly, so although it is ill-advised, and clearly a form of self-harm, it does not require you to disregard the consequences to the same (insane) level each time you do it. So as you well know, I have in the past been prepared to have a relationship with a smoker, and currently have friends who smoke. Obviously I would prefer they didn't.

[stewart38]

You get the impression some people on this site would shoot dead a smoker if they saw the chance

Give them a break :confused:

ps I'm a non smoker but each to their own:rolleyes:

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by stewart38
You get the impression some people on this site would shoot dead a smoker if they saw the chance

Give them a break :confused:


Hi Stewart38, this thread is about smoky dance floors not smokers. Smokers are people too and we love everyone in the world of dance. We're just asking the smokers that make dance floors smoky to give us a break so we can dance in clean air:D


Originally posted by stewart38
ps I'm a non smoker but each to their own:rolleyes:

I agree with you. If they kept their smoke 'to their own' none of us would have a problem:wink:

[Wendy]

I feel a little guilty about attacking the smokers in my previous posts instead of just talking about smoky dancefloors...... and maybe I am also guilty of being harsh cos I know it is possible to quit the habit and so wish they would too....

Wxxx

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Wendy
I feel a little guilty about attacking the smokers in my previous posts instead of just talking about smoky dancefloors...... and maybe I am also guilty of being harsh cos I know it is possible to quit the habit and so wish they would too....

Wxxx

Don't feel even a little guilty. We wouldn't have smoky dance floors if it wasn't for smokers. You are not attacking them, you're acting in self-defence - they started it. If anyone except smokers did us as much harm we'd call it assault:mad: The only reason that smokers get away with it is that smoking is legal. Maybe we need a change in the law to make it illegal for smokers to allow their smoke to 'assault' other people. That would take the responsibility away from venue owners and put it where it belongs, with the smokers.

The statisticians tell us that most smokers want to quit. But they can't. You're an example to them to show it can be done. All you need to do to prove you're right is to live/dance longer than smokers:wink:

[Chris]

I was just reading in the free newspaper today how smoking costs the NHS about a million a year and the tax from tobacco is about seven times that (not to mention the thousands of jobs connected with the industry, and the large sums that restaurant and pub owners claim they will lose if a nationwide ban is introduced.)

I have always thought myself very lucky in regards smoking - for many years (though not now) I've had an occasional cigarette without feeling the slightest addiction. Once I even lit up in response to the moral outrage of a few reformed smokers ...

(You can imagine the scene - boardroom meeting some years ago - a smoker lights up, being careful to hold the smoke well away from the group so it goes out of an open window - immediately told how disgusting it was etc etc - I'm afraid I think he was being more considerate on that occasion that his denigrators :blush: )

Many people find the addiction very hard to beat and hate themselves for it (and they are not just 'stupid' - my old professor, a leading light in her field, was and probably still is hopelessly addicted). I think such smokers maybe deserve a bit of sympathy (especially if they are considerate of non-smokers who find the habit very offensive).

It's hard to say what to do about it. I think more work on helping people to quit would be good (MSP Health Minister Malcolm Chisholm has just launched a well-heeled campaign in this direction). I also think we could be a bit less biassed - nobody likes being spoken to as if to a child (as some campaigns and anti-smoking lobbies sometimes do) - there are many 'benefits' of smoking (aids short-term digestion, alertness etc) it's just that the disadvantages outweigh them manyfold and people need to be able to choose themselves, and given help.

Finally (continuing this devil's advocate thread :devil: ), not to mention the 'behind the bike sheds' type chat and gossip that smokers alone often share(!) <g,d&r> there is one other time that I have found cigarettes useful and almost indispensable...

When travelling alone in a 3rd world country and you have no common language, the offer of a cigarette is an almost universally understood gesture of friendship. We have gotten to almost the exact opposite in the Western world - there are places in California where you can't even smoke in the open air within so many metres of a parking meter. I think smoking is especially inappropriate in most 'health based' activity areas (which I include Ceroc, but not all modern dancing) but I hope it's possible to hold to our views on that without having a witch hunt on smokers generally.:(

[stewart38]

I think there is a big difference between stopping smoking on or at dance venues and attacking smokers.

If alcohol was dicovered today it would be band as an addictive drug but should we band it ?

Yes keep smoking out of venues but please do not set out to think smokers are a sub species.

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by stewart38
I think there is a big difference between stopping smoking on or at dance venues and attacking smokers.

Yes keep smoking out of venues but please do not set out to think smokers are a sub species.

Stewart38 is right. We should not attack smokers. But I think we should take positive action against smokers when they interfere with our own health. They're a bit like drivers, we're all drivers and we do our utmost to ensure that we don't hurt anyone - but some drivers are irresponsible and drive in a way which could and occasionaly does cause injury or even death. And some smokers are irresponsible too - but most aren't. We should not vilify all smokers for the actions of the few irresponsible ones. But we should not tolerate the irresponsible ones either as their action could cause us harm.

Irresponsible inconsiderate smokers beware, you can't hide - we can smell you:devil:


And for the latest update on the Ceroc Kent situation, I have received a reply. Here it is.


Dear Andy

Thank you for your informative comments and feedback regarding smoking.

We will indeed be giving the matter our full consideration.

In the meantime, we would remind you that 3 of our venues are already 'Non Smoking':

1. The Stag Theatre, Sevenoaks - Wednesdays. A well ventilated 'Art Deco' style venue

2. The Park Langley Club, Wickham Way, Beckenham - Fridays. A brand new Sports Centre, complete with air conditioning and balcony.

3. The Dance Studio, Birchwood Golf Club, Wilmington - our Sunday Workshop Venue.

Yours sincerely,

Virginia Woolf


Here is my reply

Dear Virginia

Thank you for your response. It's heartening to find that some of your venues are non-smoking.

However, this is obviously not due to any policy of Ceroc Kent. I have telephoned the 3 venues and they have all told me that they have an existing no smoking policy. This means that you have no choice but to make those venues no smoking.

As you say, you are giving this matter your full consideration. When do you think you will have completed your deliberations? I only ask this so I can decide whether or not I will list your smoking venues when I start producing the list in early October.

Yours sincerely

Andy McGregor


I think my reply needs no further comment.

So, from the list on the Ceroc Kent website, that means that there's smoking at the 9 following venues;

Bromley - Thursdays

Canterbury - Wednesdays

Croydon - Tuesdays

Gravesend - Thursdays

Hayes - Tuesdays

Orpington - Wednesdays

Maidstone - Thursdays

Rochester - Mondays

Welling - Mondays

Does anyone on the Forum have any alternatives to suggest for us non-smokers who care about our health, sense of smell, personal freshness, etc, etc, etc?

[stewart38]

Andy what kind of tobacco do you smoke in that pipe ? :na:

[Chris]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Yours sincerely,
Virginia Woolf


Errrmmmm . . . but I thought Virginia Woolf was a smoker anyway? :devil: (I can be really slow on the uptake - hours - so do explain if I've missed the joke)

Or are we just talking Old Virginia?

Sincerely

Mrs Dalloway

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by stewart38
Andy what kind of tobacco do you smoke in that pipe ? :na:

I did say ages ago that it's just a cork with an orange stick in it. I also said that I believe Popeye would be alive today if he hadn't smoked:wink:

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by Chris
Errrmmmm . . . but I thought Virginia Woolf was a smoker anyway?

Sincerely

Mrs Dalloway

Now I know telling fiction from fact can sometimes be hard on this forum - Virginia Woolf is her real name, one of the most successful Ceroc franchise operators, a serious businesswoman from what I hear, (look at that list of venues for starters), but I've never been to any of her venues. (Does this explain her success? :sad: )

So maybe her parents were having a joke, just like those of my former colleague Ms Schip, first name Anka.
If she was off sick, it was "Anka's away!" (She was always a handy port in a storm though :wink: ). And as far as I know, not a dancer, so won't be reading this :what: )

Greg

[Pammy]

Originally posted by Sheepman
She was always a handy port in a storm though :wink: )

Ah, and so he's back, with his usual flurry of cheap lines. Oh how I missed him :grin:

Px

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Chris
Errrmmmm . . . but I thought Virginia Woolf was a smoker anyway? :devil: (I can be really slow on the uptake - hours - so do explain if I've missed the joke)

Or are we just talking Old Virginia?

Sincerely

Mrs Dalloway

Chris, I admire your bravery in mentioning Virginia and making a reference to age in the same sentence. Virginia looks quite scary to me - but then I am scared of all women:what:

Yes, Virginia is a smoker. But she is also in business. If we can show her that it would mean more £6s through the door if she made her venues non-smoking she might go for it.

I would prefer it if we didn't turn this thread into a Ceroc Kent bashing thread. Please name other venues where the dance floors are smoky. If you'd prefer to do it anonymously send me a pm and I'll do it.

To start the ball rolling, Ceroc Horsham is really smoky and Steve Nash is also a smoker:devil:

He's also a really nice guy who teaches a good, fun lesson:waycool:

[Pammy]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
but then I am scared of all women:what:

And so all men should be, right girls? :wink:

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by Pammy
Ah, and so he's back, with his usual flurry of cheap lines. Oh how I missed him :grin:

Px
No I'm not really back, just waiting for my MS updates (~3 hours) and my on line insurance quote (~1/2 hour and counting), and I had to say something about Saturday night.
But I know you don't believe me!
In my wonderfully smoke free environment, and yippee! It's raining at last, first time in months, garden's wetter, car's cleaner, . . . oh no it was just a shower.
And that quote is till running zzzzzz . . .

G x

[Chris]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Chris, I admire your bravery in mentioning Virginia and making a reference to age in the same sentence. Virginia looks quite scary to me . . . But she is also in business.

:rofl: :rofl: seems I'm way off lol - the only Virginia Woolf I know of is the novelist - and she topped herself some while ago so I guess she would be pretty scary if she's still running a business - thought there was an obscure literary reference there that I'd missed:blush:

Definitely wasn't Virginia bashing old or new - especially old (literary) VG's concept of 'moments of being' is one that is wonderful for dancers too :nice:

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Chris
:rofl: :rofl: seems I'm way off lol - the only Virginia Woolf I know of is the novelist - and she topped herself some while ago so I guess she would be pretty scary if she's still running a business - thought there was an obscure literary reference there that I'd missed:blush:

I was only making a literary reference in passing.

I have never spoken to the currently living Virginia Woolf who owns Ceroc Kent. I've been at a few classes where she's been teaching. She seem's like a formidable woman and not to be messed with. Hence the 'scary' reference.

But, as I said, we're all dancers and we love dancing. And that means we naturally feel warmly towards the people who put on dance nights. This puts us in a difficult situation. Do we stop going to Ceroc Kent venues? If the alternative is to stop dancing then the answer must be to keep going and try to dance where we can't smell the smoke. To not dance is inconceivable:what: Personally, I'll go to venues where I know it isn't smoky.

I don't know what positive action to suggest next. Has anyone else got any suggestions that don't involve voting with our feet? And that's not just Ceroc Kent that's all smoking venues.

[Chris]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
To not dance is inconceivable:what: Personally, I'll go to venues where I know it isn't smoky.

I don't know what positive action to suggest next. Has anyone else got any suggestions that don't involve voting with our feet?
Miss Scary doesn’t sound like a close pal – are you sure she’ll listen to your ideas?
:devil:
Options:

Make supportive suggestions – eg notices requesting smokers use the outside area (Does she smoke? Different approaches required according to answer!)
Put up with it
Foot vote

I’ve tried all three successfully at different times and still do. Some things are beyond our control. Not dancing is conceivable, just hard, and easier once the decision’s made. Sometimes a manager won’t listen to good advice so it cuts down your options. But a lot of people say the best way to learn salsa or lindy is to take a sabbatical on ceroc. After all, it’s her club. It’s your life. {end blue peter fix it mode}
:wink:

[TheTramp]

Have to say, (and just bumping this thread back into the public view again), that I've known Virginia for quite some time. She was the first franchisee to put me forward to be a teacher. And she's not at all scary.

I demo'd for her at my last dance down south before moving away, and had a really nice evening.....

Steve

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Have to say, (and just bumping this thread back into the public view again), that I've known Virginia for quite some time. She was the first franchisee to put me forward to be a teacher. And she's not at all scary.

I demo'd for her at my last dance down south before moving away, and had a really nice evening....Hi Tramp, where have you been, I thought you were the 'Forum Legend'?

Of course you aren't scared of Virginia - you're not scared of anyone:wink: :devil:

Maybe you could talk Virginia into doing something about the smoking:wink:

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Hi Tramp, where have you been, I thought you were the 'Forum Legend'?

Of course you aren't scared of Virginia - you're not scared of anyone:wink: :devil: Oh. I've been here. Watching you! :rolleyes:

And there's loads of people that I'm scared of. My mother tops the list of course.

Steve

[Pammy]

Originally posted by TheTramp
And there's loads of people that I'm scared of. My mother tops the list of course.

Where do I come? :innocent:

[Dave Hancock]

Originally posted by Pammy
Where do I come? :innocent:

Ohhhh, so easy to go upstairs on this:sorry :sorry

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Dave Hancock
Ohhhh, so easy to go upstairs on this:sorry :sorry Uh huh. But I'll resist the temptation, since we'd like this thread to stay downstairs :D

Pammy, you don't scare me at all. But is this just a case of lulling me into a true sense of security? :rolleyes:

Steve

[Pammy]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Pammy, you don't scare me at all. But is this just a case of lulling me into a true sense of security? :rolleyes:

It worked then :innocent:

And I want to know who was the one person who said they loved a smokey dance floor? Was this a mis-click? Was it you Boo Boo?

Px

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by TheTramp
And there's loads of people that I'm scared of. My mother tops the list of course.

Steve

I've seen the size of your head. Your mother has every reason to get her revenge...

The least you could do is smoke so she can see you suffer:devil:

[TheTramp]

Nah. She's heard about you, and reckons that me knowing you is suffering enough for a head twice as big as mine :rolleyes: :na:

Steve

[Boomer]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
I've seen the size of your head. Your mother has every reason to get her revenge...
The least you could do is smoke so she can see you suffer:devil:
oooo you bi**h:rofl:

Originally posted by TheTramp
Nah. She's heard about you, and reckons that me knowing you is suffering enough for a head twice as big as mine :rolleyes: :na:
Steve :rofl:
meow! (touche)

Originally posted by Pammy
And I want to know who was the one person who said they loved a smokey dance floor? Was this a mis-click? Was it you Boo Boo?Px
Who's Boo Boo..do you mean me!?!:what: or am I just feeling tender and paranoid:tears: I couldn't see what I voted for due to the billowing clouds of noxiuos-death streaming from my malignant white stick:yum: :nice:

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by Boomer

Who's Boo Boo..do you mean me!?!:what: or am I just feeling tender and paranoid:tears: I couldn't see what I voted for due to the billowing clouds of noxiuos-death streaming from my malignant white stick:yum: :nice:

boo-boo is a bear isnt he ? noxiuos - thats a brilliant word you just made up - can i have it ? :)

From now on cough you should cough put the word cough cough cough after nearly every cough other word. This will cough serve cough to remind cough you and cough us that you cough are still one cough of the cough white stick burner brigade. :D

(where's the coughing smiley :) )

[Boomer]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
boo-boo is a bear isnt he ? noxiuos - thats a brilliant word you just made up - can i have it ? :)

It's all yours...just please spell it correctly, I couldn't:sad:


(where's the coughing smiley :) ) [/B]
:what: You ever tried smiling while coughing at the same time!?!:what: Doesn't half make your eyes bulge:what:

[Pammy]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
(where's the coughing smiley :) )

They used to have a little green one on the London forum, maybe that was it??!! :confused:

And yes Boomer, Boo Boo is you; endearing term for a well-loved bear (you know me, anything to steer away from the whole monkey theme!):wink:

Px

[Boomer]

Originally posted by Pammy

And yes Boomer, Boo Boo is you; endearing term for a well-loved bear (you know me, anything to steer away from the whole monkey theme!):wink:

Px

cough gorilla cough is an cough ape cough steer cough is cough bovine cough :D

I actually think I voted for not liking a smokey dance-floor, can't quite remember.

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Pammy, you don't scare me at all.
I hope you realise that it is really really dangerous not to be scared of Pammy! :eek: :eek:

Boomer, I thought you'd taken the pledge to give it up, so what's all this coughing? Or have I got my members mixed up?

Greg

[Dan Hudson]

Thought it was about time I added my ten pence worth on this subject...

I run three Ceroc nights in South East London..

Wednesdays and Sundays at Charlton and Tuesdays in Greenwich.

The Charlton venue has always been a smoking venue, The Tramp paid us a visit some months back and commented on the smoke. I don't believe in banning smoking as this is discrimination to smokers ( please note I am a non smoker).
Around 30% of our clientele are in fact smokers and smoke outside or in the bar area. We no longer put ash trays on the tables to discourage smoking near the dance floor. I do feel this has worked and do not see the need to put a ban in place for the forseeable future


Greenwich however is completely non smoking due to the venue policy not mine( its the old town hall). There is a fire escape landing which the white stick brigade use and do not comment either way.

To me (as A non smoker) I haven't noticed the difference in the smoke levels on the dance floors.

I have been away for a few weeks, but it is my intention to survey our members again as to there preference of smoking or non, but I beleive they will all be fairly indifferent.

On the back of this we will make a business decision based on the needs/wants of our members.

If any of you are regulars or indeed have visited any of my venues, please post as I would be interested in your views.

Andy, if you wish to publish us on the list of smoking venues ofr now then please do, but as a businessmen my obligation is to keep the majority of our dancers happy.... If after my survey this changes I will let you know...

regards,

[Boomer]

Originally posted by Sheepman
I hope you realise that it is really really dangerous not to be scared of Pammy! :eek: :eek:
Boomer, I thought you'd taken the pledge to give it up, so what's all this coughing? Or have I got my members mixed up?
Greg
Nope, you've got your members straight, I've just had a recent relapse unfortunately. Am gearing-up again, but that's by-the-by.

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by Dan Hudson
I don't believe in banning smoking as this is discrimination to smokers ( please note I am a non smoker).Would you ban yobs who occasionally punched people in the face whilst dancing? or what that also be discrimination ? Im being serious here, smoking bans appear because it is something that affects other people not because you want to discriminate against a type of person ?! As a venue manager it is of course up to you what you do, but i hardly think a smoking ban would be discrimination by the normal definition

i.e. Treatment or consideration based on class or category rather than individual merit; partiality or prejudice: racial discrimination; discrimination against foreigners.

you choose to be a smoker you dont choose to be foreign, or short, or ugly etc.. ;)
Originally posted by Dan Hudson
but as a businessmen my obligation is to keep the majority of our dancers happy:confused: You quoted 30% as smokers, so you must mean you want to keep the minority happy surely ?

[azande]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
You quoted 30% as smokers, so you must mean you want to keep the minority happy surely ? Only if you assume that the other 70% have the same opinion as Andy, and that is not true, otherwise there would only be smokers at that venue. :wink:

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by azande
Only if you assume that the other 70% have the same opinion as Andy, and that is not true, otherwise there would only be smokers at that venue. :wink: they dont have to have the same opinion as Andy - they have to be happy : so when asked would you be happy to breath in smoke? they would have to reply yes :) to be included in with the smokers surely ? Unless you're suggesting they are happy regardless of smoke, but if pressed would they really answer yes to the above question ?

[Dan Hudson]

As I posted, a brief survey or our dancers recently showed a great indifference towards a smoking ban.

Due to the current trend in non- smoking venues, I will be carrying out a further survey.

If you wish to vote I suggest you come down:wink:

[Siobhan (Forum Plant)]

I HATE smoking, it's the single most disgusting habit EVER!!!

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by Siobhan
I HATE smoking, it's the single most disgusting habit EVER!!!

Its not as disgusting as something i just thought of :what:

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
Its not as disgusting as something i just thought of :what: You really n eed to stop watching so much Monty Python, DS :na:

Steve

[Tazmanian Devil]

The Charlton venue has always been a smoking venue, The Tramp paid us a visit some months back and commented on the smoke. I don't believe in banning smoking as this is discrimination to smokers ( please note I am a non smoker).

Dan, Well said Darling. :cheers:

[Tazmanian Devil]

originally posted by Dreadful Scathe Would you ban yobs who occasionally punched people in the face whilst dancing? or what that also be discrimination ?


Your having a laugh. Violence is something that is not tolerated any where you go. Smoking on the other hand is not banned from every where you go only some places it's not like when you are smoking you could put somebody straight into hospital with broken ribs and a bruised up face now is it!! I guess your a non-smoker! :rolleyes

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Tazmanian Devil
Smoking on the other hand is not banned from every where you go

I guess your a non-smoker! :rolleyes: Ummm. Not yet. In 1998, a complete ban on smoking in public places came into effect in California. Next year, Norway is expected to do the same. I don't think it'll be that long before the UK follows too.

And I guess that you're a smoker :na:

Steve

[Tazmanian Devil]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Ummm. Not yet. In 1998, a complete ban on smoking in public places came into effect in California. Next year, Norway is expected to do the same. I don't think it'll be that long before the UK follows too.

And I guess that you're a smoker :na:

Steve

As far as California goes didn't many people stop going to the bars and clubs once the ban was put into place? I remember a few years back there was a programe on the telly about the non-smoking issue saying that the business was actually suffering in califiornia since the ban was put into place and many people were going over the border to pubs and clubs.
at the end of the day there will always be smokers around and if smoking is banned from peoples regular venues then they will just go dance else where wont they. Carla :)

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by Tazmanian Devil
Your having a laugh. Violence is something that is not tolerated any where you go. Smoking on the other hand is not banned from every where you go only some places

You quoted me out of context - what I said was Would you ban yobs who occasionally punched people in the face whilst dancing? or what that also be discrimination ?

Its the discrimination part that was the point - i dont think banning smokers would be discrimination as, just like violence, it is something inflicted on others who may not welcome it. Totally different from real discrimination such as banning short people, or people with blue skin :).



Originally posted by Tazmanian Devil

it's not like when you are smoking you could put somebody straight into hospital with broken ribs and a bruised up face now is it!! I guess your a non-smoker!

No, instead you put them into hospital to die from cancer. Remember Roy Castle ? Does the fact that it takes a while to be affected alter the seriousness of it in anyway?

Good guess though :)

[Jayne]

Hi all,

here's a link to a new article in Nature about passive smoking (http://www.nature.com/nsu/030922/030922-4.html) FYI. Basically they injected tumour cells into two groups of mice. One group was then made to breathe second hand smoke and the other received clean air. While both groups developed tumours (as you'd expect) the ones with smoke exposure had larger tumours. The one criticism of the study, however, was that they used very high levels of passive smoking.

J :nice:

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by Tazmanian Devil
many people were going over the border to pubs and clubs.
Great, let's do the same, get them all going to France, where of course it's illegal to smoke in bars and cafes, but they just don't take any notice. I even complained to a proprietor there earlier this year as I was choking on the smoke. He just shrugged his shoulders and said "this is France".

This could be an issue with the planned dance trip to Paris?

At least when it happens here, I think most venues will start to respect customer's rights to breathe easily. But I can't really see it being a manifesto pledge for anyone but the Greens; hey maybe it's time for a change in political direction.

Greg

[Pammy]

Originally posted by Tazmanian Devil
it's not like when you are smoking you could put somebody straight into hospital with broken ribs and a bruised up face now is it!! I guess your a non-smoker! :rolleyes

I'd rather end up in hospital instantly with a broken nose, than with terminal lung cancer 30 years down the line....

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Tazmanian Devil
Your having a laugh. Violence is something that is not tolerated any where you go. Smoking on the other hand is not banned from every where you go only some places it's not like when you are smoking you could put somebody straight into hospital with broken ribs and a bruised up face now is it!! I guess your a non-smoker! :rolleyes

He is NOT laughing. And you have got it completely wrong. Smoking near people is worse than voilence. There is now clear evidence that passive smoking puts you in hospital. And with nothing so trivial as broken ribs or bruising. You go into hospital with cancer and you come out dead.

[Heather]

Originally posted by Tazmanian Devil

at the end of the day there will always be smokers around and if smoking is banned from peoples regular venues then they will just go dance else where wont they. Carla :) [/B]

GOOD!!!!! I certainly hope so!!:sick: Can't stand smoking.


:hug: :kiss:
Heather,
Xx

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Dan Hudson
The Charlton venue has always been a smoking venue, The Tramp paid us a visit some months back and commented on the smoke. I don't believe in banning smoking as this is discrimination to smokers ( please note I am a non smoker).

Discrimination comes in many forms. The most obvious is a sign on the door that says that a certain type of person is denied entry - for example 'NO DISABLED' or 'NO WOMEN' or even 'NO SCOTTISH'. These groups have no choice but to be what they are. The Tramp has no choice but to be asthmatic. If he breathes smoke he risks an asthma attack - you really need to signpost your smoking dance hall - NO ENTRY TO PERSONS WITH CHEST CONDITIONS. This is because there are many like him and there is a huge death rate from these attacks every year - you wouldn't want to risk people unknowingly entering an area that put their health at risk. To expect the Tramp and other asthmatics to dance in a smoky room is discriminating as your actions mean that he can not attend. To ask smokers to smoke in a different room is not discriminatory, they can still come in and dance, they can still smoke, they just need to go out of the room to do it - this sounds eminently sensible to me. If you had a sign that said 'NO SMOKERS' that WOULD be discriminatory but I'm not proposing you do that.


Originally posted by azande
Only if you assume that the other 70% have the same opinion as Andy, and that is not true, otherwise there would only be smokers at that venue. :wink:

There are only smokers at that venue. The difference between them is that some are buying and lighting their cigarettes - the others are smoking them once thieir smoke has been released into the room - but the are all smokers even if they don't think they are.


Originally posted by Tazmanian Devil
at the end of the day there will always be smokers around and if smoking is banned from peoples regular venues then they will just go dance else where wont they. Carla :)

This is something we agree on 100%. I'm suggesting that people 'dance elsewhere' for the sake of their health. And if your dance class continues to allow smoking I'm suggesting that people 'dance elsewhere'.

[azande]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
There are only smokers at that venue. The difference between them is that some are buying and lighting their cigarettes - the others are smoking them once thieir smoke has been released into the room - but the are all smokers even if they don't think they are. OK Andy, you win!

[azande]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
There are only smokers at that venue. The difference between them is that some are buying and lighting their cigarettes - the others are smoking them once thieir smoke has been released into the room - but the are all smokers even if they don't think they are.
And they are all smokers of their own free will, just like me.

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by azande
OK Andy, you win!

You're just being easy on me because it's my birthday. I'm 47 today and I feel the need to live for another 47 years without smoking - my own or other people's:tears:


Originally posted by azande
And they are all smokers of their own free will, just like me.

If smokers had a completely free will many of them would have given up. But they can't because they are addicted and they became addicted at a time before the evidence was available that would have prevented them from starting smoking in the first place.

But the passive smokers could have been misled if they read this thread. They've been told on this very forum that the smoking venue is just as smoky as the non-smoking venue. How can this be true as the non-smoking venue must have NO smoke at all:confused: Therefore the smoking venue must have no smoke. If this is true nobody is smoking in the smoking venue and a ban would make no difference to the smokers as they are obviously already going outside.

Where a ban would make a difference in to the confidence of us non-smokers. We would be able to go to the venue in the knowledge that we wouldn't be putting our health at risk if an inconsiderate smoker decided to light up next to the dance floor.

And while on this inconsiderate smoker theme I'm asking people to consider this. Azande is a considerate smoker, he goes outside the dance hall to smoke even if he doesn't have to. That's really nice and makes him a nice person. If smoking was banned in all venues it wouldn't affect considerate smokers like Azande as they're already doing what they would do in a venue where smoking wasn't allowed to mix with dancing.

Conversely, inconsiderate smokers puff away at the side of the dance floor without a thought for the damage they're inflicting on other people in the room. Worse than that, they get all shirty when they're asked to stop. They think they're taking the moral high ground when they stop going to the venue and ask their friends to do the same - as has happened at Dartford on Thursdays. Those smokers are being immoral, selfish, inconsiderate and rude. They are not all smokers, they are probably a minority, but they create enough of a health hazard on their own and I also believe they do the smokers lobby great harm. These self-centred smokers do not deserve our sympathy and they do not deserve the support of venue owners.

[Tazmanian Devil]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe


Its the discrimination part that was the point - i dont think banning smokers would be discrimination as, just like violence, it is something inflicted on others who may not welcome it. Totally different from real discrimination such as banning short people, or people with blue skin :).

Excellent comment on the blue skin I like it! I apologize for taking your text out of context :sorry There are many fantastic dancers that are smokers as im sure you are aware. If smoking was totally banned from dancing all together then dance holidays like Camber wouldn't get as much business and the smokers would more than likely start up their own venues. Some of you out there might think this is good but it wouldn't be good for the actual runners of the dance venues as they would be the ones missing out on the business. :really:




Remember Roy Castle ? Does the fact that it takes a while to be affected alter the seriousness of it in anyway?

Yes I remember Roy Castle (Record Breakers) and I do understand your point from a non- smokers point of view but there are many non- smokers that really don't mind if you smoke or not. I have never had someone refuse to dance with me because im a smoker. Do you refuse to dance with someone just because they are a smoker?:confused:

[Tazmanian Devil]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
This is something we agree on 100%. I'm suggesting that people 'dance elsewhere' for the sake of their health. And if your dance class continues to allow smoking I'm suggesting that people 'dance elsewhere'.

As Dan said in his statement the smokers at Charlton tend to smoke at the bar or out side which is what I do. There is alot of non-smokers at Charlton on a wednesday and a sunday and they don't seem too bothered if we smoke or not. Do you Drink alcohol? Don't mean to seem sarcie but that can kill you to. I tend to find with most venues that I go to the smokers don't actually smoke that much anyway as they are to busy dancing. I am a very heavy smoker but when I'm out dancing I will only smoke 3-4 cigarettes the whole night and even then I am putting them out practically as soon as I light them as someone pulls me up for a dance. :wink:

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by Tazmanian Devil
If smoking was totally banned from dancing all together then dance holidays like Camber wouldn't get as much business

I doubt that the smokers would stop going to quality events purely because of a smoking ban in the venue itself, there would always be places to smoke. Sour grapes wouldnt do them any good in the long term, theres no argument from anyone that says smoke from cigarettes is in any way good for you, so its pretty inevitable that it will be banned more and more.

I just noticed i managed to mention banning smokers instead of banning smoking in my last post - thats not what i meant of course - you couldnt ban someone just because they smoke but you can, and arguably should, ban the action of smoking. No one bothered to pick me up on that either - does anyone read my posts :D.


Originally posted by Tazmanian Devil

Yes I remember Roy Castle (Record Breakers) and I do understand your point from a non- smokers point of view but there are many non- smokers that really don't mind if you smoke or not.


Its still not doing them any good though, wether they like it or not. These are the same people that dont complain in restaurants when they get terrible service and even still give a tip :). I must admit Im generally one of them - being pretty laid back I rarely get annoyed and would be one of the last to complain (although in the case of a dance venue i would assume everyone else was happy with the situation and find another venue).


Originally posted by Tazmanian Devil

I have never had someone refuse to dance with me because im a smoker. Do you refuse to dance with someone just because they are a smoker?:confused:

As i said above, it was a slip of the typing fingers that caused me to type about banning smokers and not just smoking. I would only not dance with someone if they were actually holding a cigarette when they asked me to dance :). Being a smoker wouldnt bother me, i just may choose not to kiss them afterwards. I make a point of snogging partners occasionaly you see :D.

[Tazmanian Devil]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
I would only not dance with someone if they were actually holding a cigarette when they asked me to dance :). Being a smoker wouldnt bother me, i just may choose not to kiss them afterwards. I make a point of snogging partners occasionaly you see :D.

When i'm actully smoking a cigarette i wouldn't ask someone for a dance to be honest with you which is why I tend to smoke at the bar or out side. Although in saying that as I stated to Andy nine times out of ten when I come off the dance floor to cool off and light up a fag someone asks me back onto the dance floor for a dance so I put it straight back out again.:hug: :kiss:

[Claire]

Originally posted by Tazmanian Devil
when I'm out dancing I will only smoke 3-4 cigarettes the whole night

3 to 4 Carla?
3 to 4???

Now I'm sure you had more than that last night..... at least "6" by my reckoning...... ohhhhhhh but of course that wasn't cigarettes now was it?

he he he he he

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Tazmanian Devil
If smoking was totally banned from dancing all together then dance holidays like Camber wouldn't get as much business and the smokers would more than likely start up their own venues. Ummm. But Camber has a non-smoking policy now in the actual dance halls, and has done for a couple of years. If you want to smoke, you have to go outside, or to a room allocated for smokers. Which is exactly the point that people are trying to make? It's always handy when people destroy their own arguements!! :wink: :na:

Oh. And yes, I don't drink either. Track 17 off 'Antics In The Forbidden Zone' applies I believe :rolleyes:

Steve

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Tazmanian Devil
Yes I remember Roy Castle (Record Breakers) and I do understand your point from a non- smokers point of view but there are many non- smokers that really don't mind if you smoke or not. [/B]

There aren't that many who don't mind. There's 9.52% of all dancers who don't mind smoky dance floors according to the poll a the top of this page. That's less than one in ten dancers. And you must bear in mind that's all dancers, not non-smoking dancers. I do not know the point of view of non-smokers because I've not asked them the question in a non-leading way. How does the Tasmanian Devil know with such confidence what the view of non-smokers is:confused:


Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
I just noticed i managed to mention banning smokers instead of banning smoking in my last post - thats not what i meant of course - you couldnt ban someone just because they smoke but you can, and arguably should, ban the action of smoking. No one bothered to pick me up on that either - does anyone read my posts :D.

As you can see from the bit below, I had noticed that people were talking about banning smokers rather than smoking. I just wasn't naming names:wink:


Originally posted by Andy McGregor
To ask smokers to smoke in a different room is not discriminatory, they can still come in and dance, they can still smoke, they just need to go out of the room to do it - this sounds eminently sensible to me. If you had a sign that said 'NO SMOKERS' that WOULD be discriminatory but I'm not proposing you do that.

I think this thread is now working. Smokers and organisers who put profit before the health of their cusomers are now contributing to the debate - I'd just like to see a better quality of argument from the smoking lobby. Here is a recent argument which came up;


Originally posted by Tazmanian Devil
Do you Drink alcohol? Don't mean to seem sarcie but that can kill you to.

I thought we'd dealt with this earlier but to repeat myself I will explain the difference. When you drink you take a personal risk, it is yours to take and so long as you don't drive while under the influence the risk to health is yours and yours alone - your drinking does not put others in danger of disease. When you smoke in company you are putting those around you at risk - and they haven't chosen to take that risk, you have chosen to put their health at risk because you as a smoker are selfish or ignorant.

I must add that most smokers are considerate of the health of others - but some are not and the above message is for them. If they think it is rude or confrontational they should remember that my saying it does their health no damage whatsoever. And if they take notice of the message behind it our overall health in the world of Ceroc will be improved - which is nice:D

[Tazmanian Devil]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Andy McGregor
There aren't that many who don't mind. There's 9.52% of all dancers who don't mind smoky dance floors according to the poll a the top of this page. That's less than one in ten dancers. And you must bear in mind that's all dancers, not non-smoking dancers. I do not know the point of view of non-smokers because I've not asked them the question in a non-leading way. How does the Tasmanian Devil know with such confidence what the view of non-smokers is:confused:

I am only going by the non-smokers at the venues that I dance in which have never complained about the smoking to myself or any of my other dance friends. As I stated earliere alot of the non-smoking people that I have danced with in the passed and new beginners have no problem asking me for a dance even when I am standing either at the bar or out side having a cigarette. and as far as the polls go not every body that goes to ceroc venues is on this forum are they, even alot of very experienced dancers have never heard of it or are not connected to the internet, so it's not exactly the majority of dancers now is it.:confused:

[Tazmanian Devil]

Originally posted by Claire
3 to 4 Carla?
3 to 4???

Now I'm sure you had more than that last night..... at least "6" by my reckoning...... ohhhhhhh but of course that wasn't cigarettes now was it?

he he he he he


No hunny That was 6 dances with the hottest non-smoking man at Charlton and don't you worry I am planning to top that next week.:yum: :na: :drool:
All that up close and personal with ******* don't half get ya hot under the collar:drool: :yum: :yum:

Oh and im sure you had at least 3 dances with that certain hot man!!:nice:

[Tazmanian Devil]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Ummm. But Camber has a non-smoking policy now in the actual dance halls, and has done for a couple of years. If you want to smoke, you have to go outside, or to a room allocated for smokers. Which is exactly the point that people are trying to make? It's always handy when people destroy their own arguements!! :wink: :na:

Oh. And yes, I don't drink either. Track 17 off 'Antics In The Forbidden Zone' applies I believe :rolleyes:

Steve
Ok I know Camber has a no smoking policy in the Halls but they haven't banned smoking they have simply designated a specific place for it and as I stated only a couple of times before I usually smoke at the bar or outside not smack bang in the middle of the dance floor.:na: :wink: :hug:

[azande]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
There aren't that many who don't mind. There's 9.52% of all dancers who don't mind smoky dance floors according to the poll a the top of this page. That's less than one in ten dancers. And you must bear in mind that's all dancers, not non-smoking dancers. I do not know the point of view of non-smokers because I've not asked them the question in a non-leading way. How does the Tasmanian Devil know with such confidence what the view of non-smokers is:confused:

I would add the one that loves them so we get to 1 in 10! :D
And there are only 1 in 7 that DON'T go to a smoky place.
The rest either go to a place where smoking is banned or they still go where smoking is allowed and they think that dancing is more important that their health. (And we don't know how many of each there are!)

One way or another the poll doesn't prove much. :devil:

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Tazmanian Devil
I am only going by the non-smokers at the venues that I dance in which have never complained about the smoking to myself or any of my other dance friends. [/B]

So now we have a conclusion that people don't mind smoky dance floors because they've never spoken about it at all! If I presented this type of evidence to my Professor it would probably have been returned torn in half it is so worthless. The only way to find out people's opinions is to have an independent person ask a significant, and hopefully stratified, sample a non-leading question.


Originally posted by Tazmanian Devil
and as far as the polls go not every body that goes to ceroc venues is on this forum are they, even alot of very experienced dancers have never heard of it or are not connected to the internet, so it's not exactly the majority of dancers now is it.:confused: [/B]

You do not need to ask the majority a question to find out how they think. You need to ask a sample. To put it simply, if you want to know how much salt there is in the sea you take samples at different places measure the salt content take an average and then make a calculation based on the volume of the sea. Dancers are quite homogenous compared to the population. A sample such as the one taken on this Forum would provide a significant result that would be reproducible. The only major thing wrong with this is the sampling method in that responders are self-selecting. But as both non-smokers and smokers would feel the need to state their case I believe that would balance things out - although I can't be 100% certain.

Now I have a question for the Tasmanian Devil.

Which one of the following statements do you agree with?

A. I believe that there is a risk to health from passive smoking in dance venues that allow smoking around the dance floor?

B. I believe that there is no risk to health from passive smoking in dance venues that allow smoking around the dance floor?

If your answer is A then you have so far been saying that dancers should be taking a risk with their health by dancing in smoky venues.

If your answer is B you have been taking your stance from ignorance of the avaliable data on the risks of passive smoking.

From what you've said so far I would say that you have come to conclusions about what people think based on what you think. Having conducted hundreds of surveys I can tell you that is almost always wrong.

[Graham]

Originally posted by azande
And there are only 1 in 7 that DON'T go to a smoky place.
The rest either go to a place where smoking is banned or they still go where smoking is allowed and they think that dancing is more important that their health. (And we don't know how many of each there are!) Yet again you assume too much. I answered "hate" rather than "make a stand" because I have never actually checked the smoking policy of a venue before giong for the first time, so it would be dishonest to say I never went anywhere near them. Until recently, smoking was technically permitted at the venues I attend, but few people actually lit up round the dance floor, and when they did I either moved away or a certain mutual friend would ask them to go outside! There are venues I would now not go to because on previous visits I found them too smoky. I don't see how this equates to me "not caring very much" about smoke on the dance floor. You should bear in mind that people may not HAVE to take a stand, simply because there isn't a smoking problem at the venues they normally attend.

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by azande
I would add the one that loves them so we get to 1 in 10! :D


Sorry, I could be accused of abusing statistics here. I was quoting the poster who said that the majority 'don't mind smoky dance floors'. If we use those who don't mind or love smoky dance floors that makes 11 out of 100. Still not a 'majority'.


Originally posted by azande
I would add the one that loves them so we get to 1 in 10! :D
And there are only 1 in 7 that DON'T go to a smoky place.
The rest either go to a place where smoking is banned or they still go where smoking is allowed and they think that dancing is more important that their health. (And we don't know how many of each there are!)

One way or another the poll doesn't prove much. :devil:

Azande, are you sure you aren't a politician? You are quoting the results of a survey when it suits your ends. Then you're going on to say the poll doesn't prove much:devil:

[azande]

Originally posted by Graham
Yet again you assume too much. I answered "hate" rather than "make a stand" because I have never actually checked the smoking policy of a venue before giong for the first time, so it would be dishonest to say I never went anywhere near them. Until recently, smoking was technically permitted at the venues I attend, but few people actually lit up round the dance floor, and when they did I either moved away or a certain mutual friend would ask them to go outside! There are venues I would now not go to because on previous visits I found them too smoky. I don't see how this equates to me "not caring very much" about smoke on the dance floor. You should bear in mind that people may not HAVE to take a stand, simply because there isn't a smoking problem at the venues they normally attend.

Of course people don't have to make a stand. But what I'm saying is that only people who do make a stand (IMHO) care enough about the smoky venue. And since we don't know whether the "majority" either chooses to go anyway or doesn't have to choose because smoking is already banned, the poll doesn't say much.

I've always been of the opinion that if there is something you hate enough you just avoid it. If dancing is more important than a smoky place, well.. you go to those venues knowing what to expect.

[Graham]

Originally posted by azande
I've always been of the opinion that if there is something you hate enough you just avoid it. If dancing is more important than a smoky place, well.. you go to those venues knowing what to expect. When you are saying is that smoking should be allowed in all places, since the only people who would strongly object will by definition not be there. I take it you also think that if I really didn't want to be involved in a traffic accident I would avoid roads.

[Pammy]

Originally posted by Graham
if I really didn't want to be involved in a traffic accident I would avoid roads.

and if you didn't want to dance with someone who forgot their pants, you wouldn't do a competition with them?:wink:

Oh no sorry, I should be trying to agree with you here; sorry G. :sorry

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by azande
I've always been of the opinion that if there is something you hate enough you just avoid it. If dancing is more important than a smoky place, well.. you go to those venues knowing what to expect.

Once again you are right. My intention in starting this thread has been to get people to ban smoking from halls where the dancing takes place. My motivation is related to health. If you breathe cigarette smoke there is a chance that it will cause you to have an illness which might even shorten your life. At the very least it will cause you some short term discomfort.

The proportion of people who 'hate smoky dance floors' or are 'making a stand' is 71.4% and when you add in people who 'don't like' the percentage goes up to 82.5%. This is a massive vote against smoky dance floors.

This thread has been viewed 2889 times to date and has 139 replies. That means it is of interest to a lot of people. What we need to do now is to get the consumer to vote with his/her feet. And to do that they need to move towards something called 'perfect knowledge'. That is when the consumer knows everything about every product to come to a rational decision. This objective is never achievable - but it is an objective that we can move towards.

To take this from the debate stage we are currently in to the action stage we need to provide the consumer with better information about smoking policies within venues and also how smoky people find those smoking venues.

Has anyone got any suggestions to get this next phase started?

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
<snip>My motivation is related to health. If you breathe cigarette smoke there is a chance that it will cause you to have an illness which might even shorten your life. At the very least it will cause you some short term discomfort.
{snip}
Has anyone got any suggestions to get this next phase started?

I too loathe having to breathe people's smoke, but I think we'll be on a hiding to nothing by majoring on the health risks. In reality, the actual additional risk from the occasional exposure to the amount of smoke we're talking about here is probably unmeasurable - certainly in comparison to the Roy Castle example, with many years spent playing in very smoky unventilated clubs.

It isn't yet as socially unacceptable to force others to breathe one's fag smoke as it is to spit in their face, and until it is, (roll on that day), we will have to resort to persuasion and voting with our feet.

In the case of a venue manager who has an "allow smoking" policy, persuasion should probably focus on canvassing opinion, to see if the people that go to the venue really are as tolerant of the smoke as (s)he believes, but unless enough people make their views known, there is little that can be done, except go somewhere else, and (politely) make it clear why.

Chris

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by ChrisA
I too loathe having to breathe people's smoke, but I think we'll be on a hiding to nothing by majoring on the health risks. In reality, the actual additional risk from the occasional exposure to the amount of smoke we're talking about here is probably unmeasurable - certainly in comparison to the Roy Castle example, with many years spent playing in very smoky unventilated clubs.

We don't know the risk assiciated with exposure to different levels of smoke - nobody has calibrated it. There is a level of uncertainty. But why should we take that risk, whatever it's level?


Originally posted by ChrisA
It isn't yet as socially unacceptable to force others to breathe one's fag smoke as it is to spit in their face, and until it is, (roll on that day), we will have to resort to persuasion and voting with our feet.

I would probably prefer to have spit on my face rather than cigarette smoke in my lungs - a face is much easier to clean.


Originally posted by ChrisA
In the case of a venue manager who has an "allow smoking" policy, persuasion should probably focus on canvassing opinion, to see if the people that go to the venue really are as tolerant of the smoke as (s)he believes, but unless enough people make their views known, there is little that can be done, except go somewhere else, and (politely) make it clear why.Chris

The problem we've got with this approach is that it takes guts. I am thick skinned (politics makes you that way) and I had to take a deep breath and be incredibly brave when I politely told the teacher at Rochester that I liked her lesson but I wouldn't be back because of the smoking.

Most people want to be seen as nice and certainly avoid being confrontational. I think that they'll vote with their feet but the won't tell the venue manager.

And so to my plan. This is currently only an outline plan. I would love suggestions for imrovements.

1. Start a website for this subject.

2. Call/email each venue in the South East and ask them about their smoking policy.

3. List venues which allow smoking and dancing to mix in the same room.

4. List alternatives in the same area that are smoke free.

5. Make sure venue owners know they are listed and give them a chance to change.

6. Ask other people in different areas to do the same to get a nationwide list.

7. Publicise the list as the place to find out where to go.

I'm sure this can be improved upon. Please pm me or put your suggestion on this thread.

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by ChrisA
I too loathe having to breathe people's smoke, but I think we'll be on a hiding to nothing by majoring on the health risks. In reality, the actual additional risk from the occasional exposure to the amount of smoke we're talking about here is probably unmeasurable - certainly in comparison to the Roy Castle example, with many years spent playing in very smoky unventilated clubs. Actually. That depends on whether you are taking a long term, or short term view on the health risks.

I have asthma pretty badly, and when I'm exercising in any way, including dancing, breathing in a huge lungful of cigarette smoke can quite often cause me to have an attack. And trust me, it's not a pleasant experience.

Steve

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by TheTramp
...breathing in a huge lungful of cigarette smoke...

And The Tramp's lungs are huge - in fact, everything I've seen of him is huge:devil:

[Franck]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
And The Tramp's lungs are huge - in fact, everything I've seen of him is huge:devil: Is he a 'member ' of the Tory party too? :wink:

Franck.

[TheTramp]

*sigh*

Stop that. Right now.

Steve

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by TheTramp
I have asthma pretty badly, and when I'm exercising in any way, including dancing, breathing in a huge lungful of cigarette smoke can quite often cause me to have an attack. And trust me, it's not a pleasant experience.


Point taken, Steve. I had asthma for a few years a long time ago, so I know what it can be like - terrifying.

But if a venue manager believes (however erroneously) that he'd lose a substantial amount of business by banning smoking, even on or near the dance floor, my guess would be that he'd also be unenlightened enough to believe that losing the odd asthma sufferer would be preferable. So I still think that majoring on the health aspects is unlikely to be a campaign winner.

Smoking, of course, isn't the only issue that fails to be tackled for fear of somehow offending people - I know of at least one Ceroc venue at which the "geeks/pervs/weirdos" factor - albeit very minor in the grand scheme of things - resulted in several newcomer ladies having a bad experience and being put right off.

But that's a topic for another thread.... I turn into a proper Mr Angry on that one so I'll shut up now :)

Chris

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by ChrisA
Point taken, Steve. I had asthma for a few years a long time ago, so I know what it can be like - terrifying.

But if a venue manager believes (however erroneously) that he'd lose a substantial amount of business by banning smoking, even on or near the dance floor, my guess would be that he'd also be unenlightened enough to believe that losing the odd asthma sufferer would be preferable. So I still think that majoring on the health aspects is unlikely to be a campaign winner.

Smoking, of course, isn't the only issue that fails to be tackled for fear of somehow offending people - I know of at least one Ceroc venue at which the "geeks/pervs/weirdos" factor - albeit very minor in the grand scheme of things - resulted in several newcomer ladies having a bad experience and being put right off.

But that's a topic for another thread.... I turn into a proper Mr Angry on that one so I'll shut up now :)

Chris True. But then, a lot more people are suffering from asthma these days, so soon we'll be a political lobby all on our own.

However, I think that the main area to major on, is the result of the poll above. Only 17% of people said that they were prepared to put up with smoky dance floors. That leaves 83% of people saying that they don't like them (or hate, or won't go to). I think that almost any body carrying out a poll, would be delighted with an 83% majority in their favour. Surely, this should be giving a message to dance organisers (although, I freely admit that this poll isn't completely representative of dancers as a whole, and that local polls would carry more weight in any decision).

As for the other. I'm sure that you could find one of the threads all about that sort of behaviour, and let Mr. Angry out :D

Steve

[Sheepman]

I'm repeating myself:-

Originally posted by Sheepman
I have a lingering unpleasant memory of doing blues with a heavy smoker, I almost choked on a faceful of smoky hair. I'm sure she was a wonderful dancer, but I can't recall anything about that.

Originally posted by Tazmanian Devil
[QUOTE] I have never had someone refuse to dance with me because I'm a smoker. Do you refuse to dance with someone just because they are a smoker?:confused: I would never have considered refusing a dance with a smoker, though if I'd spotted them smoking I would tend to give them a wide berth. If they do smell smoky I certainly wouldn't stay on for a second dance. Perhaps I should be brutal in future and give the reason why? Though spoiling someone elses evening is not what I'm there for. (Who ever has the nerve to mention it to a dancer with B.O. unless they are intimate?)
Similarly I have never complained about smoky venues to the organisers, I just tend to avoid the venue, unless "duty" means I can't. In this area we are lucky to have the best venues and dancers where smoking is banned, so it isn't a difficult choice.

Andy, re. your plan of action, maybe it would be easier to get one of the listing or link websites to show which of the venues are non smoking. This would mean tapping into a site which already has "footfall", though I could understand if the poeple running these sites would be too conservative (small c) to risk upsetting the smoking venue organisers.

Greg

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Sheepman
Andy, re. your plan of action, maybe it would be easier to get one of the listing or link websites to show which of the venues are non smoking. This would mean tapping into a site which already has "footfall", though I could understand if the poeple running these sites would be too conservative (small c) to risk upsetting the smoking venue organisers.Greg

I have been considering asking Lynda as she's a mate. But I've decided that I shouldn't put her on the spot. So I suppose I shouldn't even consider doing the same to other people who list venues. What I thought I'd do was ask the other listing sites to do a link exchange. Also, I expect the venues who currently ban smoking would be happy to do a link exchange:wink:

Also, I'll enrol the help of ASH who've been useful in the past on a anti-smoking project I championed (successfully) at our local hospital group.

Anyone got any suggestions for a name for the site?

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by TheTramp
However, I think that the main area to major on, is the result of the poll above.
{snip}
I think that almost any body carrying out a poll, would be delighted with an 83% majority in their favour.

Strongly agree.



As for the other. I'm sure that you could find one of the threads all about that sort of behaviour, and let Mr. Angry out :D


... found the April/May thread on sleaze - most of Mr Angry's outburst has already been covered, so maybe I should keep him locked up for now :D

Chris

[Funky Si]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
So, from the list on the Ceroc Kent website, that means that there's smoking at the 9 following venues;

Canterbury - Wednesdays

Does anyone on the Forum have any alternatives to suggest for us non-smokers who care about our health, sense of smell, personal freshness, etc, etc, etc?

Dear Andy (et al)

Just to let you know that Canterbury Ceroc is actually a non-smoking venue, so please adjust your list accordingly. Any smokers we do have always smoke outside the venue, which keeps the air smoke-free. We, as crew, don't actually ban them from smoking, it's just an unwritten rule, so even our newbies dive outside for a fag.

We teach our punters well!

On another note, it may be worth visiting the other venues you mention before making your 'list'.:wink:


Funky Si (DJ Canterbury)

www.kordmusic.com

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Anyone got any suggestions for a name for the site? I'm struggling here, I don't think anything like "freshjive" or "cleanjive" would create the right impression! :wink:
How about sweetdreamsmyexsmoker
or bgonedamnsmog

you weren't thinking short and snappy were you? ;)

G

[jiveclone]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor

Anyone got any suggestions for a name for the site?

smokefreejive, smokelessjive ?

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Funky Si
Dear Andy (et al)

Just to let you know that Canterbury Ceroc is actually a non-smoking venue, so please adjust your list accordingly. Any smokers we do have always smoke outside the venue, which keeps the air smoke-free. We, as crew, don't actually ban them from smoking, it's just an unwritten rule, so even our newbies dive outside for a fag.

We teach our punters well!

On another note, it may be worth visiting the other venues you mention before making your 'list'.:wink:


Funky Si (DJ Canterbury)


This is really difficult. You allow smoking but no-one smokes. It's an unwritten rule than the air is smoke free. I have one simple question.

What's stopping you banning smoking in Canterbury Ceroc?

If absolutely everyone is going outside then you'll lose no business as nobody is being asked to change their habits. On the other hand, why should I go to Canterbury Ceroc where they might smoke because it's not banned when I could go to an alternative where it is definitely banned? What's to stop the chap who held his cigarette out over the crowded dance floor in Rochester turning up and insisting he is within his rights to do the same in Canterbury?

[Funky Si]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
This is really difficult. You allow smoking but no-one smokes. It's an unwritten rule than the air is smoke free. I have one simple question.

What's stopping you banning smoking in Canterbury Ceroc?

If absolutely everyone is going outside then you'll lose no business as nobody is being asked to change their habits. On the other hand, why should I go to Canterbury Ceroc where they might smoke because it's not banned when I could go to an alternative where it is definitely banned? What's to stop the chap who held his cigarette out over the crowded dance floor in Rochester turning up and insisting he is within his rights to do the same in Canterbury?

I think you are being a tad pedantic Andy!

People don't smoke in Canterbury because we're lucky in the respect that our punters are socially aware, and because the few smokers we have do consider the non-smokers views and agree that it makes a more pleasant environment to smoke outside, so therefore we don't have to 'ban' it in the official sense.

We have been in Canterbury for well over 3 years and we have never had anyone lighting up in the hall. Besides, as Kris (teacher) is mildly asthmatic, she would probably karate kick the fag from their mouths before they had the chance to light it anyway!

On a serious note though, if someone insisted on lighting up in the hall, they would be politely asked to refrain. If they chose to ignore this then Kris, as venue manager, would be able to ban them if necessary.

Funky Si


www.kordmusic.com

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Funky Si
I think you are being a tad pedantic Andy!
www.kordmusic.com

Sorry, I'll be very specific.

What's stopping you banning smoking in Canterbury Ceroc?

[Funky Si]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Sorry, I'll be very specific.

What's stopping you banning smoking in Canterbury Ceroc?

What stops people smoking in a church?

We don't have to activley ban it because people just don't do it. It's like us banning fly fishing in the venue!:wink:

Funky Si

www.kordmusic.com

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Funky Si
What stops people smoking in a church?
[/url]

In my church it's a 'No Smoking' sign.


Originally posted by Funky Si
We don't have to activley ban it because people just don't do it. It's like us banning fly fishing in the venue!:wink:

Funky Si

www.kordmusic.com

I think that both fly-fishing and smoking are about equally appropriate in a Ceroc venue. So why were people smoking at Rochester, Maidstone and Bromley the last times I visited? Was it to scare the trout to put off the fly fishermen?

What we need to know now is which Ceroc Kent venues don't have a smoking ban and allow smoking and which venues don't have a smoking ban but just stop people smoking every time they do it:confused:

At the moment I'm still not convinced about the 'we don't ban smoking - unless you're smoking' rule that you're talking about. You either have a smoking ban or you don't.

I'm starting to have a suspicion that you've been told that your venue allows smoking but you've taken the initiative and stopped people doing it. I can think of no other reason why you don't simply say that you ban smoking. It must take constant vigilance to stop people when they light up, particularly visitors from Bromley, Maidstone or Rochester. What is the cause of your reluctance to say you are a 'No Smoking' venue?

[Funky Si]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
I'm starting to have a suspicion that you've been told that your venue allows smoking but you've taken the initiative and stopped people doing it. I can think of no other reason why you don't simply say that you ban smoking. It must take constant vigilance to stop people when they light up, particularly visitors from Bromley, Maidstone or Rochester. What is the cause of your reluctance to say you are a 'No Smoking' venue?

We are a no-smoking venue you muppet, I was just trying to be polite!!

We have a very good and considerate crowd at Canterbury: the regular 'smoking' punters will always inform the new 'smoking' punters that they can only smoke outside the building and not in or around the dance floor. It is therefore never an issue.

There are also NO ashtrays in our venue.

Everybody, both smokers and non-smokers simply agree that the atmosphere is far better without ciggies, so therefore there is no need to stress the point........

Funky Si


www.kordmusic.com

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Funky Si
we don't have to 'ban' it in the official sense.


Originally posted by Funky Si
We are a no-smoking venue you muppet, I was just trying to be polite!!

:confused: :confused: :confused:

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Funky Si
We are a no-smoking venue you muppet, I was just trying to be polite!!I know what you mean. We only need laws because people don't automatically do what's right.

If there is the occasional environment where people do, treasure it - don't mess with it until someone disturbs the equilibrium. Then be very nasty to them indeed.

Chris

[Graham]

Originally posted by Funky Si
We are a no-smoking venue you muppet, I was just trying to be polite!!

We have a very good and considerate crowd at Canterbury: the regular 'smoking' punters will always inform the new 'smoking' punters that they can only smoke outside the building and not in or around the dance floor. It is therefore never an issue.
Can I just say, as a non-smoker, that I find this approach extremely non-assertive, and inconsiderate to smokers. What it means is that any new smokers who fail to deduce that the dance hall is non-smoking and light up will be accosted by someone requesting they smoke outside. If I was such a person I'd much rather there was a sign on the front desk so I knew up-front, than be embarrassed by being pulled up for my "inconsideration".

[Pammy]

Ah Graham, glad you're there. Thought of you this morning on way into work; being pedantic (nothing to do with this thread I know), but you'd have hated the new sign on the cafe next to the football ground "Breakfast, Lunch & Diner:tears: ". If you ever do come up to stay with me I'm going to have to take you in there!!! How would you cope passing a sign like that every morning on your way into work? I think you'd have to pay to have it altered! :wink:

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Graham
Can I just say, as a non-smoker, that I find this approach extremely non-assertive, and inconsiderate to smokers. What it means is that any new smokers who fail to deduce that the dance hall is non-smoking and light up will be accosted by someone requesting they smoke outside. If I was such a person I'd much rather there was a sign on the front desk so I knew up-front, than be embarrassed by being pulled up for my "inconsideration".

This is exactly my thinking. The individual approach makes new smokers wrong. The don't know about the 'ban' until they innocently light up. Then they get someone telling them they shouldn't do it. No matter how nicely they're told the smoker is still in the wrong through no fault of their own. I wouldn't like it and I'm sure some inconsiderate smokers could get quite annoyed or upset by this treatment.

Come on Funky Si let them know exactly what's going on before you have to tell them they're wrong. What you're doing at the moment is the equivalent of deciding on a speed limit, not putting up signs and then stopping people to tell them when they go over the limit. Wouldn't a simple sign on the desk be simpler? What's stopping you:confused:

[Funky Si]

Originally posted by Graham
Can I just say, as a non-smoker, that I find this approach extremely non-assertive, and inconsiderate to smokers. What it means is that any new smokers who fail to deduce that the dance hall is non-smoking and light up will be accosted by someone requesting they smoke outside. If I was such a person I'd much rather there was a sign on the front desk so I knew up-front, than be embarrassed by being pulled up for my "inconsideration".

Oh my gawd!!!

Final word: CANTERBURY IS A NO-SMOKING VENUE. WE DO NOT HAVE ASHTRAYS OR INDEED SMOKING ANYWHERE ON OR NEAR THE DANCE FLOOR, OR INDEED IN THE SAME ROOM AS THE DANCE FLOOR.

WE HAVE HEAVILY ARMED SECURITY READY TO 'BRING DOWN' IN A HAIL OF GUNFIRE ANYONE WHO LIGHTS UP. WE ALSO HAVE 'THOUGHT POLICE' WHO ACTUALLY DETECT PEOPLE WHO ARE THINKING ABOUT SMOKING BEFORE THEY LIGHT UP AND AGAIN, THE ARMED GUARDS DISPOSE OF THESE CRIMINALS SWIFTLY AND WITHOUT PREJUDICE. WE ARE ALSO CURRENTLY DEVELOPING A 'SWIFT RESPONSE UNIT' (SRU) TO INTERCEPT ANY PEOPLE TRAVELLING TO CANTERBURY FOR THE FIRST TIME. THESE UNITS WILL BE LOCATED ON BOTH THE M20 & M2. THEY WILL BE EQUIPPED WITH 'OLFACTORY SENSOR UNITS' WHICH WILL DETECT THE SMELL OF TOBACCO FROM A TRAVELLING CAR FROM ANYWHERE UP TO 16 MILES AWAY, AND THUS PROPEL THE S.R.U.'S INTO ACTION.

WE HOPE TO HAVE A SMALL 'ANTI-SMOKE' NAVY SOON TO DEFEND OUR PORTS, BUT IN THE MEANTIME WE MAKE DO WITH OUR 'BALLISTIC ANTI-LIGHTINGUP LONGRANGE LETHAL SHOTS' (OR B.A.L.L.S. TO YOU.)


:D


Funky Si (General, Canterbury Division))


www.kordmusic.com

[Funky Si]

I shall try a sign though.........

Funky Si (General, Canterbury Panzer Division) I got a promotion


www.kordmusic.com

[azande]

Originally posted by Funky Si
Oh my gawd!!!

Final word: CANTERBURY IS A NO-SMOKING VENUE. WE DO NOT HAVE ASHTRAYS OR INDEED SMOKING ANYWHERE ON OR NEAR THE DANCE FLOOR, OR INDEED IN THE SAME ROOM AS THE DANCE FLOOR.

WE HAVE HEAVILY ARMED SECURITY READY TO 'BRING DOWN' IN A HAIL OF GUNFIRE ANYONE WHO LIGHTS UP. WE ALSO HAVE 'THOUGHT POLICE' WHO ACTUALLY DETECT PEOPLE WHO ARE THINKING ABOUT SMOKING BEFORE THEY LIGHT UP AND AGAIN, THE ARMED GUARDS DISPOSE OF THESE CRIMINALS SWIFTLY AND WITHOUT PREJUDICE. WE ARE ALSO CURRENTLY DEVELOPING A 'SWIFT RESPONSE UNIT' (SRU) TO INTERCEPT ANY PEOPLE TRAVELLING TO CANTERBURY FOR THE FIRST TIME. THESE UNITS WILL BE LOCATED ON BOTH THE M20 & M2. THEY WILL BE EQUIPPED WITH 'OLFACTORY SENSOR UNITS' WHICH WILL DETECT THE SMELL OF TOBACCO FROM A TRAVELLING CAR FROM ANYWHERE UP TO 16 MILES AWAY, AND THUS PROPEL THE S.R.U.'S INTO ACTION.

WE HOPE TO HAVE A SMALL 'ANTI-SMOKE' NAVY SOON TO DEFEND OUR PORTS, BUT IN THE MEANTIME WE MAKE DO WITH OUR 'BALLISTIC ANTI-LIGHTINGUP LONGRANGE LETHAL SHOTS' (OR B.A.L.L.S. TO YOU.)


:D


Funky Si (General, Canterbury Division))


www.kordmusic.com

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Wendy]

See that's the way to get smokers to stop !!! Get them laughing so hard they can't light up cos they have fallen off their chair and hit their head very hard on the floor !!!! :wink:

Or maybe the taxis could just kiss them every time they want to light up :devil:

Wxxx

Hugs to all smokers and pedantic madpeople out there !!!!

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by Funky Si
Final word: CANTERBURY IS A NO-SMOKING VENUE. WE DO NOT HAVE ASHTRAYS OR INDEED SMOKING ANYWHERE ON OR NEAR THE DANCE FLOOR, OR INDEED IN THE SAME ROOM AS THE DANCE FLOOR.

So you do, albeit unofficially. have a smoking ban - even if you dont want to call it a ban. A simple sign at the front desk is all we ask, then everybody is happy!!
After all, although the ashtrays missing may be a bit of a hint they won't notice till theyre in - a sign at the desk means they can ask where they can smoke as they pay.

Why were you so reticent about using the word BAN? Its not a swear word in this country BAN BAN BAN, BAN.

BAN! B-b-b-b-b-b-b-bB-BBBBAN :D

[Dance Demon]

Originally posted by Wendy
Or maybe the taxis could just kiss them every time they want to light up :devil:
Wxxx



Oooohhh quick ......gizza fag...:wink: :wink: :wink:

[Wendy]

Never noticed you needing a prop to get a taxi dancer to kiss you before DD!!!

Wx

:kiss: :kiss: :kiss: :kiss: :kiss: !!!!!!

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
So you do, albeit unofficially. have a smoking ban - even if you dont want to call it a ban. A simple sign at the front desk is all we ask, then everybody is happy!!
After all, although the ashtrays missing may be a bit of a hint they won't notice till theyre in - a sign at the desk means they can ask where they can smoke as they pay.

Why were you so reticent about using the word BAN? Its not a swear word in this country BAN BAN BAN, BAN.

BAN! B-b-b-b-b-b-b-bB-BBBBAN :D

I'm with you DS. I don't think I'm being a pedant - and just because people who disagree with me say I am doesn't make it so.

What I'm doing is the same as you. I'm asking venues to ban smoking and I won't stop asking until they stop smoking. After all, I would be weak if I just said to myself, I've asked a few times, people have said 'no' I'll stop asking. THIS IS TOO IMPORTANT .

It seems that Canterbury is having trouble 'coming out' as a no smoking venue. And I'm having trouble extracting the real reason behind that reluctance to commit to the cause.

But Canterbury Ceroc reluctance is not the real problem and we have been side-tracked. Canterbury is obviously a no smoking venue and as such we need not concern ourselves with it - apart from going dancing there because we can expect nice fresh air to dance in - oh, and the occasional fly fisherman:devil:

We need to get back to our 5 year mission to boldly go into unexplored venues and take the no smoking message far and wide:waycool:

I'm a bit busy today so I'll sleep on it and say more tomorrow.

[azande]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
I'm with you DS. I don't think I'm being a pedant - and just because people who disagree with me say I am doesn't make it so. Well, it all depends on how many people say so. I think a good sample would be enough!:wink:

[Aleks]

Originally posted by azande
Well, it all depends on how many people say so. I think a good sample would be enough!:wink:

Graham - please provide the statistics!

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by azande
Well, it all depends on how many people say so. I think a good sample would be enough!:wink:

I think debate is all about argument and introducing new facts or data to change people's perception. It is not name calling:wink:

What I'm doing is repeating the same thing until the message has got across. The message is 'Dancing and Smoking Don't Mix'. Some people haven't got the message so I'm still saying it. It's a bit like TV advertising, it has to be repeated over and over again before it has the desired impact:waycool:

What I'm not saying is this thread is 'Give up smoking'. That would be nice too but it's entirely your business as a smoker to do that. I just wish my smoking friends would give up so I could enjoy their company for longer and reduce the number of times I have to visit them in hospital:D

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Some people haven't got the message so I'm still saying it. It's a bit like TV advertising, it has to be repeated over and over again before it has the desired impact
Hmm...

What about the ads that start to drive you so crazy by the 3rd or 4th time you see/hear them that you hit the mute button, turn to another channel or switch off completely?

Chris

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by ChrisA
Hmm...

What about the ads that start to drive you so crazy by the 3rd or 4th time you see/hear them that you hit the mute button, turn to another channel or switch off completely?

Chris

Personally speaking I hardly see any TV at all. I'm either out dancing, doing my Civic duties or something else that gets me off the sofa. But I do know that TV advertising works when it is repeated. So here goes;

Don't go to a venue where there is smoking because you are putting your health at risk by breathing cigarette smoke. If your favourite venue allows smoking let them know you don't like it.

[Pammy]

Originally posted by ChrisA
What about the ads that start to drive you so crazy by the 3rd or 4th time you see/hear them that you hit the mute button, turn to another channel or switch off completely?

I do this with the radio; can't stand the one with Frank Butcher who says something about "double glazing for just 899" or something...:tears:

and the one for "Ossos" office supplies....:tears: :tears:

Have to switch stations to avoid them! :grin:

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Pammy
I do this with the radio; can't stand the one ....
Have to switch stations to avoid them! :grin:
Exactly. Which is why, despite my loathing for cigarette smoke, I think there's a limit beyond which the anti-smoking gong-banging should not be taken. One can be just a little too militant for one's own cause sometimes.

Chris

[Andy McGregor]

Any suggestions how we can do that without saying anything:devil:

Or are you suggesting we give up with only one venue having changed to non-smoking. I think we've said quite enough about Ceroc Kent but we haven't got the message across about smoking in venues because people are still doing it. Smokers are still arguing that it does no harm to smoke in venues and some of them don't even accept that it does THEM harm.

We've got a long way to go and I'd welcome suggestions so it doesn't seem like we keep banging the same drum. What we need are a strong string section, maybe a few brass instruments, guitars and a keyboard then we'd be really cookiing:waycool:

[Andy McGregor]

I'm so upset and disappointed I'm not even going to use smilies to tell you how I feel.

I went dancing in Dartford tonight. I went feeling so positive about their new smoking ban. I was so pleased that people were starting to see sense at last.

Well it was dreadful. I went in at about 9.15 while Roger Chin was teaching the lesson. I sat at a table to change my shoes and noticed to my delight that there was a sign on the table that asked smokers to smoke outside the hall for the comfort of non-smokers. It was a polite notice and it was on every table. I thought YIPPEE it's working.

My wife Sue and I went to the bar to buy a drink and the smell of tobacco smoke was quite strong. The two tables near the bar had about 6 people sat at it and standing around smoking! Yes the sign was on the table. Then I noticed one woman sat right next to the dance floor smoking. She sat there all night smoking her way through a packet of cigarettes, I never saw her even get up to dance once. I even saw her read the sign about smoking outside, it made no difference she just carried on smoking next to the dance floor.

I'm now in despair. What are these smokers thinking about? The organisers have asked them not to smoke and they've just ignored the request. What do people have to do to stop these smokers?

It goes without saying that I'll never ever go back to Dartford no matter what they say I feel so cheated. And I recommend that any person that values their health does likewise. But I can't think what to suggest next when smokers behave this way. Can anyone offer some advice - even a bit of moral support would be nice.

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Can anyone offer some advice - even a bit of moral support would be nice.
Bizarre, I agree, for people other than obnoxious yoof to blatantly smoke in a clearly non-smoking place.

Speak to them and tell them what you think of them smoking? You're unlikely to get knifed in a Ceroc venue, even if they do get stroppy. You could do it with a group maybe...

What did the management say? I can't imagine they'd be uninterested, surely. Were they too busy to notice? Did others complain to them?

Chris

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by ChrisA
Bizarre, I agree, for people other than obnoxious yoof to blatantly smoke in a clearly non-smoking place.

Speak to them and tell them what you think of them smoking? You're unlikely to get knifed in a Ceroc venue, even if they do get stroppy. You could do it with a group maybe...

What did the management say? I can't imagine they'd be uninterested, surely. Were they too busy to notice? Did others complain to them?

Chris

These people smoking were mostly older than me - and I'm 47:tears:. The woman smoking at the side of the floor was probably in her 50s. I was going to ask her for a dance and mention her smoking but never saw her without a lighted cigarette in her hand! The other smokers were in a big group of about a dozen and I felt that to speak to them would have been pointless. They'd obviously seen the signs and decided to ignore them - why would they listen to a short, balding guy that dances in a camp manner?

These smokers are worse than ignorant. They know they shouldn't be smoking but they've chosen to do it anyway. They are spoiling the night for non-smokers and they are ruining the business for a lovely couple who I would be delighted to see doing well.

I didn't speak to the people running the night. They could see and smell the smokers as plainly as I could. I was there to dance, not run their night for them. I have subsequently sent them an email pasting my last post below a short line saying how disappointed I was.

[Wendy]

To Andy ,

:kiss: :hug: :kiss: :hug: :kiss:

Been meaning to do that for a while anyway !!! Wee chum.. you do take this very seriously !!! and now that I dance in a smoke-free environment, I forget how awful it is and how upset I'd be if the same thing had happened to me...

Even before the official ban in Scotland (and even with ashtrays on the tables!!! grrrr) I would politely say to smokers that I'd really appreciate it if they went outside... they would stare back and, usually quite angrily, (apologies .. think that was a split infinitive "boldly go" thingy!!) say " but smoking is allowed... no-one said I couldn't ... " I'd say "I know it is... but as a personal favour to me, could you please go outside... obviously you don't have to... but just as a favour.. I'd really appreciate it" sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn't... and even although smoking was allowed, I felt perfectly within my rights to ask them not to... Now if there was a ban and notices, I would have no hesitation.... and I'd probably get a few people to go up one by one to do the same... peer pressure - you can't beat it !!!!!

I am shocked the people running it didn't do anything about it... where is it again..??? Cos maybe I could get away with touching up the men without getting thrown out ... hee heee

Keep your chin up wee chum !!!!!! And why don't you just move to Scotland anyway... oh .. yeh.. you are in the Conservative party... ahhhh right.....I see..... hee heee

:kiss: :hug: :kiss: :hug: :kiss:

Wxxx

Ps You could always carry fake funeral service cards and give them out to smokers ... hee hee... (now I'm in a naughty silly mood !!!!!).... but if you are a taxi, don't know if you are allowed to promote other events !!!!! hhe heeee heeeeeehheheehee

[Pammy]

Originally posted by Wendy
Cos maybe I could get away with touching up the men without getting thrown out ... hee heee

Ps You could always carry fake funeral service cards and give them out to smokers ... hee hee... (now I'm in a naughty silly mood !!!!!).... but if you are a taxi, don't know if you are allowed to promote other events !!!!! hhe heeee heeeeeehheheehee

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Heather]

Originally posted by Wendy
To Andy ,

Keep your chin up wee chum !!!!!! And why don't you just move to Scotland anyway... oh .. yeh.. you are in the Conservative party... ahhhh right.....I see..... hee heee


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

You are a WICKED woman, Wendy:wink: .

:hug: :kiss:
Heather,
XX

[Funky Si]

Originally posted by ChrisA
Bizarre, I agree, for people other than obnoxious yoof to blatantly smoke in a clearly non-smoking place.

Speak to them and tell them what you think of them smoking? You're unlikely to get knifed in a Ceroc venue, even if they do get stroppy. You could do it with a group maybe...

What did the management say? I can't imagine they'd be uninterested, surely. Were they too busy to notice? Did others complain to them?

Chris

For the record Dartford is not a Ceroc venue, and should not be included as such.

If you feel that strongly about no-smoking and you want a good dance, come to Canturbury on a Wednesday: remember, we are a no-smoking venue!

.... the thought-police are out there.......


Funky Si


www.kordmusic.com

[Stuart M]

Originally posted by Wendy
Cos maybe I could get away with touching up the men without getting thrown out ... hee heee

Ahh, so that's why Wendy disappeared from the classes for a couple of weeks. Sore knee - aye, right...banned more like :eek:

Franck, you really should name and shame the gropers when you ban them :wink:

On the subject of smoking, one way I thought about it was: what if asthmatics used cigarettes impregnated with salbutamol/ventolin instead of nicotine? Would people around them object to being subjected to another person's prescribed medication? After all, these drugs have other effects than simply reducing inflammation in the bronchial tubes, I think.

And that led me to thinking: why not make smokers use an inhaler to take their drugs, without harming others... :devil: Every medicine I've ever been prescribed has been plastered with "do not take unless prescribed by a qualified doctor/pharmacist" type messages. If that's the case with medication - which has been exhaustively tested to ensure it makes you better without side effects - why on earth shouldn't it hold for something medically proven to harm you?

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Stuart M
Every medicine I've ever been prescribed has been plastered with "do not take unless prescribed by a qualified doctor/pharmacist" type messages. If that's the case with medication - which has been exhaustively tested to ensure it makes you better without side effects - why on earth shouldn't it hold for something medically proven to harm you?
But how many medications have you been prescribed that have "If you take this, you will die" printed all over the packaging in big writing? :sick:

{does exactly what it says on the tin :)}

[Wendy]

Originally posted by Stuart M
Ahh, so that's why Wendy disappeared from the classes for a couple of weeks. Sore knee - aye, right...banned more like :eek: Yeh... guilty... just took my taxi duties too far I suppose.... took a couple of years for anyone to complain funnily enough... :wink: :devil:

Wxxx

[Wendy]

Crikey... just read that post about going off-topic.... emm.. smoking should be banned at all CEROC venues in Scotland... oh it is... well there you go... smoking/passive smoking is bad for you... probably... and I don't really grope men at CEROC .. that was just for a bit of light relief in this rather serious thread.... and every time someone changes the subject in a bar or something I suppose some people must just get up from the table and leave....

Wxxx

[thewacko]

not all dancers are non smokers, sometimes all us unhealthy smokers get to dance as well, and as a minority in this country surely we should be able to smoke near the dance floor if we choose to. If i wanted to go to a non smoking venue then thats my choice, but as a smoker I do choose to go to a smoking venue.
as a non smoker you can also make your own choices, but if you go to a smoking venue don't moan when people smoke there!

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by thewacko
not all dancers are non smokers, sometimes all us unhealthy smokers get to dance as well, and as a minority in this country surely we should be able to smoke near the dance floor if we choose to. If i wanted to go to a non smoking venue then thats my choice, but as a smoker I do choose to go to a smoking venue.
as a non smoker you can also make your own choices, but if you go to a smoking venue don't moan when people smoke there!
Actually I don't think anyone is disputing your second point, that no one should moan at you if you smoke in a smoking venue. Most of the discussion has been about how to campaign for all venues to be made non-smoking, not about targeting individuals!!

For the record, I support your right (though not your consideration for others) to smoke at venues where it is permitted, though I would be most unlikely to go there, and if you were smoking I would avoid you as much as I could. And if you were a woman, I would also avoid dancing with you if you've been recently smoking, since you probably smell (to a non-smoker at least) unpleasantly of cigarette smoke. Nothing personal, you understand..:)

However your first point, that you should be allowed to smoke near the dance floor by reason of being in a minority, I find entirely without merit.

There's no "no spitting" notice at most venues, I've noticed.

Assuming you don't mind inflicting your cigarette smoke on others in public places, I'd be interested to know why you'd object if I came up and spat on your clothes...

Respect to you though, for having the guts to post such an unpopular view.

Chris

[JerryC]

The Norwich Ceroc venues have a no smoking policy. Sometimes go to Cambridge Ceroc, have a feeling that smoking is allowed. Will have to double check next time I go there.

JC

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by thewacko
not all dancers are non smokers, sometimes all us unhealthy smokers get to dance as well, and as a minority in this country surely we should be able to smoke near the dance floor if we choose to.

This is completely inconsiderate behaviour. You are expecting people to breathe your cigarette smoke and run the risk of the diseases associated with passive smoking. Thankfully most smokers have more consideration for their fellow man and smoke outside even in smoking venues - at least that's what the smokers who've responded to this thread have said.

I have a question for thewacko. Why can't you smoke outside and dance inside? It would make you more popular:devil:


Originally posted by thewacko
If i wanted to go to a non smoking venue then thats my choice, but as a smoker I do choose to go to a smoking venue.
as a non smoker you can also make your own choices, but if you go to a smoking venue don't moan when people smoke there!

This, at least, is completely right. What I'm suggesting is that non-smokers avoid smoking venues because thewacko and his inconsiderate friends are polluting the air over the dance floor and causing non-smokers 'serious harm' to quote the warning on packets. I believe that we could get along if smokers showed a little more consideration. It is not essential to smoke next to the dance floor, it is not even essential to smoke in the same room as the dancing. Why not smoke in another room or outside? How difficult can that be?

The other thing I complained about is that smokers were actually smoking in a non-smoking venue last Thursday in Dartford. There were signs on each table saying please smoke outside in the hall or the othe bar for the comfort of other dancers. People were still smoking inside/next to the dance floor and the place stank :sick: :sick: :sick:

And if you can smell it you're breathing it. And if you're breathing it you're risking 'serious harm'.

Here are some more questions for thewacko. Do you think non-smokers should accept breathing cigarette smoke? And another one. Do you think the the warning 'Smoking seriously harms you and others around you' is true? And if you believe it's true how do you justify smoking around non-smokers?

If you belive the warning is untrue you haven't been listening...

[Chicky]

Originally posted by ChrisA

What did the management say? I can't imagine they'd be uninterested, surely. Were they too busy to notice? Did others complain to them?


Hi everyone

just a quick reply as I've literally just got off a plane from holiday. My husband and I run the Dartford modern jive venue and have just read with sadness Andy's email to me re: smoking in Dartford last Thursday.

As he says we have put polite notices on every table and I've personally spoken to all our regular smoker who, 99% of them have no problem smoking in a different area. HOWEVER, we went away last week and am extremely disappointed that several new/regular people have chosen to ignore our new policy.

The people running our nights whilst we were away, I'm sure would not have felt they could have said anything to them, but I would have and they wouldn't have smoked, not whilst I'm in the room.

We take the health of our dancers VERY SERIOUSLY and most importantly, the happiness.

I was pleased that Andy and his wife Sue made a long trip from Brighton and just sorry I wasn't there to deal with the situation on the night.

So, just for the record, we ARE A NON-SMOKING outfit at both our venues, Swanley and Dartford.

[Daphne]

Originally posted by Chicky
So, just for the record, we ARE A NON-SMOKING outfit at both our venues, Swanley and Dartford.


Well done Chicky, let's hope we see more venues like this throughout the UK.

[Tazmanian Devil]

Originally posted by thewacko
not all dancers are non smokers, sometimes all us unhealthy smokers get to dance as well, and as a minority in this country surely we should be able to smoke near the dance floor if we choose to. If i wanted to go to a non smoking venue then thats my choice, but as a smoker I do choose to go to a smoking venue.
as a non smoker you can also make your own choices, but if you go to a smoking venue don't moan when people smoke there!

Well done darling xxxxxx:kiss: :hug: :cheers: :rofl:

[Tazmanian Devil]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Andy McGregor
I have a question for thewacko. Why can't you smoke outside and dance inside? It would make you more popular:devil:

thewacko is one of the most popular people at the venues he dances at every one knows him there and would not have a bad word to say about him. How can you quote whether or not someone is popular when you dont even know who they are?:confused:

[Graham]

Originally posted by thewacko
as a minority in this country surely we should be able to smoke near the dance floor if we choose to. As you are, as you say, in a minority, why should the majority of pubs, restaurants, dance venues, allow smoking? I am all in favour of freedom of choice, but in many situations non-smokers have none: either they put up with the polluted atmosphere, health risks, having to clean their coats/jackets to get rid of the unpleasant smell, etc, or as Azande and thewacko suggest they just don't go. I'm quite happy for there to be places which allow smoking, and most of the time I wouldn't go into them, but why is it that smokers object so much to people campaigning to have more places where smoking is not allowed? Because they wouldn't be as convenient for the smokers perhaps? What a shame! After all, you can always not go there if you're really that bothered about being able to smoke.........

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Tazmanian Devil
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Andy McGregor
I have a question for thewacko. Why can't you smoke outside and dance inside? It would make you more popular:devil:

thewacko is one of the most popular people at the venues he dances at every one knows him there and would not have a bad word to say about him. How can you quote whether or not someone is popular when you dont even know who they are?:confused:

So thewacko couldn't be more popular - sorry I got that wrong :blush: I'd assumed that some people wouldn't like him smoking next to the dance floor. And how about the other question. Why couldn't he dance inside and smoke outside?

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by Tazmanian Devil

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
I have a question for thewacko. Why can't you smoke outside and dance inside? It would make you more popular:devil:

thewacko is one of the most popular people at the venues he dances at every one knows him there and would not have a bad word to say about him. How can you quote whether or not someone is popular when you dont even know who they are?:confused:

You managed to turn Andys comment round on its head! There are bound to be people that dont like toxic fumes on the dance floor, so if thewacko was to stop adding to them Im also 100% positive he would be more popular - what has Andys quote got to do with how popular he is now....Nothing! :confused:

[Andy McGregor]

[i]You managed to turn Andys comment round on its head! There are bound to be people that dont like toxic fumes on the dance floor, so if thewacko was to stop adding to them Im also 100% positive he would be more popular - what has Andys quote got to do with how popular he is now....Nothing! :confused: [/B]

Thany you DS, I'm glad someone is awake in Smurf - although I was thinking of moving there in the hope that they'd abolished Monday mornings:wink:

I agree with you. No matter how popular you are you can always be more popular. And there are probably some non-smoking dancers who like thewacko at the moment who would like him even more if he smoked outside instead of next to the dance floor.

p.s. What do they smoke in Smurf to get that nice blue skin? Or is it some kind of drink which causes the colour change? Please don't tell me Smurfs are born rather than created as I think I would like to become one. I'm the right size already:wink:

[thewacko]

:mad: I was not commenting on how popular I am or am not.
I am purely making a stand for smokers in general.

As a smoker I go to smoking venues, and smoke. If I go to non smoking venues I go outside and smoke. Why should I go outside and smoke at smoking venues, if you are a non smoker you always have the choice of not going to smoking venues, and as I stated earlier if you do go to smoking venues, don't moan about it!:mad:

[Lounge Lizard]

Originally posted by thewacko
:mad: I was not commenting on how popular I am or am not.
I am purely making a stand for smokers in general.

As a smoker I go to smoking venues, and smoke. If I go to non smoking venues I go outside and smoke. Why should I go outside and smoke at smoking venues, if you are a non smoker you always have the choice of not going to smoking venues, and as I stated earlier if you do go to smoking venues, don't moan about it!:mad:
I have to agree with you, I am an ex-smoker and hate the smell, but I learnt to dance on the Rock & Roll circuit - just a tad smoky in their venues, but everyone knew it would be like that when we went to the venues
One of modern jives biggest attraction's for me was the non smoking policy, but if the organiser allows smoking, then don't moan at the smokers inside the venue.
Health issues aside these guys probably don't enjoy going outside to smoke and if they find a venue where they can smoke inside in a social environment then what is wrong with that.:cheers:

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by thewacko
[BAs a smoker I go to smoking venues, and smoke. If I go to non smoking venues I go outside and smoke. Why should I go outside and smoke at smoking venues, if you are a non smoker you always have the choice of not going to smoking venues, and as I stated earlier if you do go to smoking venues, don't moan about it!:mad: [/B]

You are absolutely right.

Our argument is not with you smokers. It is with the organisers. Dancing is an aerobic activity we get out of breath and take bigger breaths. It's horrible when that nice big lungful of air is full of cigarette smoke which makes us cough and give us a sore throat. The long term affects are too dire to even list here - but they are well publicised.

What I'm proposing to do is simply list venues you can go to if you want to smoke and venues you can go to if you don't want to smoke either actively or in a passive way. Then I'm suggesting that, for the sake of their continued good health, non-smokers avoid the smoking venues and go to the non-smoking alternatives. Which, it seems to me, is exactly what you're saying. We agree completely so you've no reason to get mad with anyone. In my opinion, we all share a love of dance and should celebrate our common interest :hug: :hug: :hug:

[thewacko]

:cheers:
I must admit it's nice to know there are people out there with a bit of common
:D
I totally agree if venues were advertised as smoking or non smoking that gives us punters more of a choice as to wether we go or not, and also prepares us for what we are about to encounter
:cheers:

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
Health issues aside these guys probably don't enjoy going outside to smoke and if they find a venue where they can smoke inside in a social environment then what is wrong with that.:cheers:

I don't think we can put those health issues aside. The packets say 'Smoking seriously harms you and those around you'. Worldwide there were 100 million deaths due to smoking in the 20th Century and it is estimated that there will be 1 billion deaths in the 21st Century. Unless something is done it is predicted that smoking will be the biggest cause of death by the year 2030.

We might as well say, 'putting aside that Hitler killed 6 million Jews, he was popular with the German people and kept the streets clean'. This is a rediculous statement and so is any suggestion that we put the health and smoking issue to one side. We can not put 'health issues aside' and reconsider the argument. The health issue IS the argument.

Sorry to get so heavy guys. We've got 120,000 people in the UK dying from smoking. If someone came up with a cure for a disease that killed that number of people they'd be a hero. For some reason, anyone suggesting that we save 120,000 lives by quitting smoking is portrayed by many people as a pariah.

My own father has had 3 heart attacks and a triple-bypass because of his smoking. There is no doubt that he life expectancy has been shortened - but still my own mother smokes:tears:

What is it about smoking that makes smokers blind to the health evidence?

And what is it about smokers that makes them think there's nothing wrong with other people breathing their smoke?

[Lounge Lizard]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
We might as well say, 'putting aside that Hitler killed 6 million Jews, he was popular with the German people and kept the streets clean'. This is a rediculous statement and so is any suggestion that we put the health and smoking issue to one side. We can not put 'health issues aside' and reconsider the argument. The health issue IS the argument.

:what: :what:

Sorry Andy, thought we still had freedom of choice, my mistake.:wink:

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
:what: :what:

Sorry Andy, thought we still had freedom of choice, my mistake.:wink: Freedom of PERSONAL choice is true.

But when what you do adversely affects others, then of course you don't. Unless you are completely selfish....

Steve

[Funky Si]

All venues will eventually be non-smoking, because that is the way it is going. Most of my local pubs are non-smoking and are much better for it: your hair and clothes do not smell of old smoke and eyes do not water.

I agree with Andy: smoking does kill. Fact. It's only because of the huge amount of revenue generated by smokers for the government that it is not banned outright,but if they want to smoke then I respect their right to smoke and nobody should tell them what to do and where.

However if you are a smoker, you have a duty to be socially aware and understand that the majority of people do not like to be affected by smoke. Smokers have the choice of when and where to smoke, dancers do not have that choice. Should non-smoking dancers 'nip out the back for a quick boogie'? I think not!

Manners and politeness are all about being socially aware!


Funky Si



www.kordmusic.com

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by Funky Si
However if you are a smoker, you have a duty to be socially aware and understand that the majority of people do not like to be affected by smoke. Smokers have the choice of when and where to smoke, dancers do not have that choice. Should non-smoking dancers 'nip out the back for a quick boogie'? I think not!


good point - its not as if you have 'Smoking Nights' where people turn up to a public location just to smoke with like minded people :). Its not really a social event in itself. :)

[Lounge Lizard]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Freedom of PERSONAL choice is true.

But when what you do adversely affects others, then of course you don't. Unless you are completely selfish....

Steve :sorry Sorry Steve I should have made the quote reference clear, I was referring to a posting by thewhacko

Originally posted by thewhacko
As a smoker I go to smoking venues, and smoke. If I go to non smoking venues I go outside and smoke. Why should I go outside and smoke at smoking venues, if you are a non smoker you always have the choice of not going to smoking venues, and as I stated earlier if you do go to smoking venues, don't moan about it!
So I cant see the problem with anyone smoking at a venue that clearly states smoking permitted - hence freedom of choice.
:cheers:

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
The health issue IS the argument. ...We've got 120,000 people in the UK dying from smoking.

I loathe cigarette smoke, but I don't entirely agree with this. This will sound callous, but I don't care about the 120,000, only the <10 of them that are important to me.

The rest of the smokers contribute a great deal in taxation, and indeed far more thereby to the NHS than the sick smokers take out. So providing I don't have to put up with their smoke, they're fine by me.

I'm fortunate enough not to suffer from asthma, so it's relatively easy to keep my exposure to passive smoke down to a level where the only risk I incur is likely to be no more than a lot of other risks I expose myself to every day - doubtless theTramp has to work harder to achieve this, which is a shame, and possibly the main weakness in my argument.



And what is it about smokers that makes them think there's nothing wrong with other people breathing their smoke?
This is the key to it all IMHO. Smoking is disgusting. Smokers would object if I came up to them in the pub and spat on their clothes, f**ted grossly next to them, or even peed on them :really: , but they think nothing of the fact that they make my clothes and hair stink, to say nothing of the sheer unpleasantness of the smell at the time. Presumably this is because of history - smoking has been socially acceptable for a long time, and it's taking a long time for the culture to change.

But quite separately from the health issues, and, sorry Andy, I do think it's a real distinction, the culture needs to change in a direction where inflicting unpleasantness on people around you is unacceptable, whether it's fag smoke, BO, noxious smells or pee :sick:

Attempting to persuade unreasonable people to behave reasonably is something that has always been virtually impossible, so ultimately the pressure needs to be on the venues, not the individuals, as I think we all agree.

Chris

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
:what: :what: Sorry Andy, thought we still had freedom of choice, my mistake.:wink:

I'm not sure why you think something I've said has removed your freedom of choice or suggested that it should be removed. Do you mean that I shouldn't have recommended that people choose not to dance where people smoke as matter of personal choice? To positively choose to dance somewhere smoky risks life shortening diseases. I think we would all choose to live longer. To choose to do something that would shorten our lives could be defined as suicidal:devil:

I know that we all take calculated risks and breathing second hand smoke is one of them. But where there is an alternative I'm saying 'Live longer, dance longer, go to a no smoking venue'.

This thread is 'Smoking and Dancing Don't Mix'. It is not a personal attack on any smoker. It seems to me that most smokers agree that if you don't like smoky dance floors don't go to the venues that allow smoking - which is exactly what I'm saying. And because we have freedom of speech (and the Scottish Ceroc Forum:cheers:) ) we can air our views and debate the subject.

This debate has aleady been had in Scotland. And the result was a total ban at Scottish Ceroc:D If you look at the thread which resulted in this ban you can see that there was no decent defence of the right to smoke inside venues. There has been much more argument from the Southern smokers against the banning of smoking from venues. I wonder what it is about Scottish smokers who dance that makes them have a social conscience and consideration for the health of their fellow dancers?:devil:

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by ChrisA
I loathe cigarette smoke, but I don't entirely agree with this. This will sound callous, but I don't care about the 120,000, only the <10 of them that are important to me.

The rest of the smokers contribute a great deal in taxation, and indeed far more thereby to the NHS than the sick smokers take out. So providing I don't have to put up with their smoke, they're fine by me.Chris

I agree that some of the 120,000 deaths a year are much more important to us. I suppose I'd like to think that the rest are people I'd like to know, help, etc.

I'm not sure about the argument re funding the NHS. I wish I did know the sums but I do know that many politicians I've spoken with make a great deal of effort not to seem too close to the NHS because it's seen as a vote loser no matter what you do!

Like you I think it's great that a large group that I'm not part of contribute more tax than I do. However, I think that if smoking were banned our leaders would find another place to extract the money from. Of course, whoever did it would lose the next election. The smokers would vote against them and so would all the people hit by the new stealth taxes - no wonder it has no chance of happenning:devil:


Originally posted by ChrisA
Presumably this is because of history - smoking has been socially acceptable for a long time, and it's taking a long time for the culture to change.

But quite separately from the health issues, and, sorry Andy, I do think it's a real distinction, the culture needs to change in a direction where inflicting unpleasantness on people around you is unacceptable, whether it's fag smoke, BO, noxious smells or pee :sick:

Attempting to persuade unreasonable people to behave reasonably is something that has always been virtually impossible, so ultimately the pressure needs to be on the venues, not the individuals, as I think we all agree.

Chris

I agree Chris. Things will be very slow to change. But this debate and millions of others like it will contribute to the speed of that change. This thread has now been viewed 4,394 times. Some people will have had the issue raised to a higher level of consciousness by the debate, some people might even have changed their views - I know that Boomer is trying to give up smoking as a result of this thread and the Dartford venue is trying really hard to get people to smoke outside. Maybe some considerate smokers are now popping outside for a puff even if the venue doesn't make them...

The successes might be small but they could be one of the small pebbles sliding down the mountain that eventually result in a landslide:waycool:

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
I agree Chris. Things will be very slow to change. But this debate and millions of others like it will contribute to the speed of that change. This thread has now been viewed 4,394 times. Some people will have had the issue raised to a higher level of consciousness by the debate, some people might even have changed their views - I know that Boomer is trying to give up smoking as a result of this thread and the Dartford venue is trying really hard to get people to smoke outside. Maybe some considerate smokers are now popping outside for a puff even if the venue doesn't make them...

The successes might be small but they could be one of the small pebbles sliding down the mountain that eventually result in a landslide:waycool:
Well said. :cheers:

And good on Boomer too. Hope I'll meet him soon... and you.:)

Chris

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by Funky Si
All venues will eventually be non-smoking, because that is the way it is going. Most of my local pubs are non-smoking and are much better for it: Please! Where are your local pubs, maybe I can start drinking again!!

Andy - this is getting to be hard work, are people not getting the point or just being obtuse? Keep up the good work!

Greg

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Sheepman
Andy - this is getting to be hard work, are people not getting the point or just being obtuse? Keep up the good work!

Greg

I know! We're on page 23 of this thread and we've only had one smoker admit he's giving up and one venue change it's policy. Maybe it's time to get tough. My main concern about getting tough is that it stops being debate and starts to become argument. If that happens this thread will probably be sent outside.

I think that the reason we're having trouble with smokers not getting the point is that they're kidding themselves. Here is a small snippet of the data from the World Health Organisation.

Since the 1950s, more than 70,000 scientific articles have shown that prolonged smoking causes premature death and disability worldwide. Overall, one in two smokers will die prematurely, with one quarter dying in middle age, losing 20-25 years of life.

Smokers can, somehow, ignore this data - they seem to be able to ignore quite a lot of it too. One in 4 of them will lose at least 2 decades from their lives. But they carry on smoking. They even defend their right to smoke next to dance floors and put non-smokers at risk too. If they can ignore the data that could save their lives and ignore the 'serious harm' they're doing to 'others around' them they can ignore some short, balding, non-smoker writing a few things on their computer.

The people I hope I'm appealing to are the non-smokers like us. What I'm saying is please don't go to venues where they allow smoking. There's plenty of alternatives. We've asked venue owners to ban smoking in their venues but when they smoke themselves they really can't see a problem - after all, they're fooling themselves into thinking that smoking is not doing their health any harm. Jeff Jasper at his Tuesday Class at the City Gate in Brighton even told me 'go f**k yourself when I suggested that he should make his dances No Smoking!

Let's give them a problem the can't ignore by staying away from their venues.

[thewacko]

Since the 1950s, more than 70,000 scientific articles have shown that prolonged smoking causes premature death and disability worldwide. Overall, one in two smokers will die prematurely, with one quarter dying in middle age, losing 20-25 years of life.

Smokers can, somehow, ignore this data - they seem to be able to ignore quite a lot of it too. One in 4 of them will lose at least 2 decades from their lives. But they carry on smoking. They even defend their right to smoke next to dance floors and put non-smokers at risk too. If they can ignore the data that could save their lives and ignore the 'serious harm' they're doing to 'others around' them they can ignore some short, balding, non-smoker writing a few things on their computer.
:D

Well at least it wont be too long before us smokers are no more and you non smokers can dance smoke free, although by then you'll have found something else to maon about then thats bad for your health - like dancing in popey suits :what:

[thewacko]

:cheers:

Let's give them a problem the can't ignore by staying away from their venues.

:cheers:

hear hear

[PeterL]

Andy

Do not flame me for the following post as chief worrier I feel this should be said

I am a smoker and am not proud of it however I go outside- I even go outside at my own home. I am married to a doctor so you can imagine I hear the dangers of it quite a lot. You will notice that I agreed with you early on in the thread.

However I would like to take exception to a few of the points you have made
1. Harping on forever about smoking, most of us smokers feel bad enough and are trying or have plans to quit (IMHO), if we were fat and you were harping on at the health issues involved then you would be flamed for that.

2. I agree that passive smoking is bad for you, I don't know how bad but surely complaining about us being outside buildings is taking it too far-cars pollute the air more than smoke so don't villify us when we do actually go outside.

3. As a smoker I am constantly placed in situations where I can't smoke, I find this fair enough, but when smoking is allowed somewhere and I don't mean a dancefloor please don't complain, you have a choice you can take your custom elsewhere.

The whole point is that smoking should be banned (I agree) , but ceroc and the forum are public and fun and you are publically villifying smokers who enjoy going to ceroc and taking part in the forum-to the point where we feel embarased to even stand outside and have a ciggarette, your arguments are repetitive, emmotive and verge on preaching.

You have made your point, no-one really disagrees about smoking and dancefloors and that there should be plenty of no smoking alternatives, I personally voted to ban it in ceroc venues in Scotland-however no-one likes someone on a soapbox especially when they are the ones being villified, all that will happen if you constantly preach is that non-smokers will carry on agreeing with you ( they would anyway) and smokers who did originally agree or might have agreed will just take exception to your preaching (see whackos replies). they will make an idiot of themselves as you can't argue with an emmotive argument and people like me who agree with most of what you say, but can see why whacko is getting annoyed will stand on the fence.

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by PeterL

Do not flame me for the following post as chief worrier I feel this should be said


In Andys defence, I dont think Andy has ever taken a tone that could be taken as flaming. So far anyway :).
Ill try and flame you instead if you like :D.


Originally posted by PeterL

However I would like to take exception to a few of the points you have made
1. Harping on forever about smoking, most of us smokers feel bad enough and are trying or have plans to quit (IMHO), if we were fat and you were harping on at the health issues involved then you would be flamed for that.

Im sure he would, but not many people choose to be fat. Its also not something that adversely affects the people around them. Its also not something you can 'stop' easily, theres lots and lots of reasons for becoming overweight, whereas smokers smoke AND affect other people by PUTTING BURNING STICKS IN THEIR MOUTHS. Do you see how to stop this habit.... :D
If you can find a way to stop people getting fat as easily, you'll be a billionaire by the end of the week.

Also 'harping on' is a bit harsh. This is a public forum and you're suggesting we stop discussing the topic of the thread.
Smoking is the entire point of this thread after all. If no one was interested, no one would read it or reply. If it
bothers you this much, stop reading now.




Originally posted by PeterL
so don't villify us when we do actually go outside.

I missed that then, thought the point was 'no smoking in rooms where dancing is taking place'.


Originally posted by PeterL

The whole point is that smoking should be banned (I agree) , but ceroc and the forum are public and fun and you are publically villifying smokers who enjoy going to ceroc and taking part in the forum-to the point where we feel embarased to even stand outside and have a ciggarette, your arguments are repetitive, emmotive and verge on preaching.

A good argument and stance to take in an argument is one where your facts and points are consistent surely. You see consistency as repetition and preaching ? We can have discussions like this on a public forum and not remove the fun. This thread is not a personal dig at smokers, its about not having to dance in clouds of smoke in smoky venues.


Originally posted by PeterL
all that will happen if you constantly preach is that non-smokers will carry on agreeing with you ( they would anyway)

Thats a big assumption to make. Everyone has grown up with smoking being a normal habit not everyone actually cares about smoke - pubs are generally very smoky and i still occasionally go into pubs. Unless they have an allergy or asthma the general population is probably going to vote indifference to smoking in public places, its still part of life. In our more specific area of dancing in smoke, we are more inclined to actively try to get it stopped...but not even that actively if you go by some of the previous posts; some people will just stay away. I think perhaps you have come over just as 'preachy' as Andy :).

[Tazmanian Devil]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
This thread is not a personal dig at smokers, its about not having to dance in clouds of smoke in smoky venues.

Ha ha was that suposed to be funny! :rofl:


Thats a big assumption to make. Everyone has grown up with smoking being a normal habit not everyone actually cares about smoke - pubs are generally very smoky and i still occasionally go into pubs. Unless they have an allergy or asthma the general population is probably going to vote indifference to smoking in public places, its still part of life. In our more specific area of dancing in smoke, we are more inclined to actively try to get it stopped...but not even that actively if you go by some of the previous posts; some people will just stay away. I think perhaps you have come over just as 'preachy' as Andy :).

I will have to agree with you there andy is very preachy!!!!:wink:

[Tazmanian Devil]

Originally posted by thewacko
Well at least it wont be too long before us smokers are no more and you non smokers can dance smoke free, although by then you'll have found something else to maon about then thats bad for your health - like dancing in popey suits :what:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

nice one :hug: :kiss:

[Tazmanian Devil]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
And how about the other question. Why couldn't he dance inside and smoke outside?

the waco like myself only smokes at the bar or outside any way. But thats not to say that we wont debate out point. ceroc is a social event where people go to wind down from a hard days work why should they have to smoke outside? If people dont like the fact that we smoke at the bar or outside (if we choose) then they should go to them non smoking venues and leave the rest of us alone.:devil: :wink:

[Tazmanian Devil]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
You managed to turn Andys comment round on its head! There are bound to be people that dont like toxic fumes on the dance floor, so if thewacko was to stop adding to them Im also 100% positive he would be more popular - what has Andys quote got to do with how popular he is now....Nothing! :confused:

It has got alot to do with how popular he is now as he couldn't be any more popular! He is liked by every one due to his mad personality and as I quoted earlier there is no one at the venues he dances at that would here a bad word about him smoking or not! Just because Andy and others are so against smoking it doesn't mean to say every one is.
Oh and before you start saying about the poll out of 500 odd members of the forum only 68 people have voted so it's not exactly the majority of dancers is it now?:really:

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
This thread is not a personal dig at smokers, its about not having to dance in clouds of smoke in smoky venues.

Ha ha was that suposed to be funny!

er..whatever turns you on i suppose :what:

[Tazmanian Devil]

Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
I have to agree with you, I am an ex-smoker and hate the smell, but I learnt to dance on the Rock & Roll circuit - just a tad smoky in their venues, but everyone knew it would be like that when we went to the venues
One of modern jives biggest attraction's for me was the non smoking policy, but if the organiser allows smoking, then don't moan at the smokers inside the venue.
Health issues aside these guys probably don't enjoy going outside to smoke and if they find a venue where they can smoke inside in a social environment then what is wrong with that.:cheers:
here here :wink: :hug: :kiss:

[PeterL]

Taz

The non-smokers do have a point, my post wasn't aimed at there point about us smoking, I happen to agree with them, you should be able to dance smoke free. My point was about the thread in general knocks smokers a lot, and it does also knock us for going outside in that we are knocked for standing at doorways when no alternative is provided.

We as smokers should be considerate of non-smokers it is OUR choice not theirs. If you actually read my post DS you would have seen that I was not saying that Andy was wrong, just that preaching gets peoples goats up and that the argument was very emmotive.

Now I have to butt in and point out to Taz that spamming a thread will also just get peoples backs up.

[Andy McGregor]

Peter

I would like to say that you worry too much and you take it all too personally - but as you're Chief Worrier you probably have to do extra worrying in your spare time.

You are already doing what I'm asking smokers to do so I think you're great. Down here in England we've still got people smoking right next to our dance floors as if there's nothing wrong with it - and getting agressive with organisers when they're asked to stop. But that isn't you, you're not that kind of smoker, you're considerate and WORRY about people.


Originally posted by PeterL

1. Harping on forever about smoking, most of us smokers feel bad enough and are trying or have plans to quit (IMHO), if we were fat and you were harping on at the health issues involved then you would be flamed for that.

I wish I wasn't still 'harping on' about smoking. But it hasn't had the desired effect yet.

The difference is that if someone is fat they're doing me no harm. And, unlike smoking cessation, they can't become slim in the blink of an eye. Giving up smoking happens the second after your last cigarette. The craving for the next ciggie can, unfortunately, last for years.


Originally posted by PeterL

2. I agree that passive smoking is bad for you, I don't know how bad but surely complaining about us being outside buildings is taking it too far-cars pollute the air more than smoke so don't villify us when we do actually go outside.


I'm not, and never have been, complaining about people smoking outside buildings. I'm sorry if I've given that impression when I actually asking them to do that very thing!

If you want to know how bad passive smoking is you can go here http://www.ash.org.uk/ it presents a balanced view of the evidence including the case put by tobacco companies themselves.


Originally posted by PeterL

3. As a smoker I am constantly placed in situations where I can't smoke, I find this fair enough, but when smoking is allowed somewhere and I don't mean a dancefloor please don't complain, you have a choice you can take your custom elsewhere.

I'm not complaining about any other activity that allows smoking. I'm only talking about 'Smoking and Dancing Don't Mix'. My objective is to make dancing a smoke free persuit. I know when a pub or restaurant allows smoking and I have a choice.


Originally posted by PeterL
The whole point is that smoking should be banned (I agree) , but ceroc and the forum are public and fun and you are publically villifying smokers who enjoy going to ceroc and taking part in the forum-to the point where we feel embarased to even stand outside and have a ciggarette, your arguments are repetitive, emmotive and verge on preaching.

Preaching is a way of getting a message across. And it's stood the test of millennia. If the Pope does it there can't be anything wrong with it (after I've said that I hope he's not exposed having a crafty ciggie!) I'm not trying to vilify smokers in general, just the ones who smoke near me when I'm dancing. If it's anyone at all, the people I'm vilifying are the venue owners who continue to allow smoking in the face of public opinion.

Taking the Devils Advocate role for a moment, there is an argument that making you embarassed to be seen smoking could help motivate you to give up:devil:


Originally posted by PeterL
You have made your point, no-one really disagrees about smoking and dancefloors and that there should be plenty of no smoking alternatives, I personally voted to ban it in ceroc venues in Scotland-however no-one likes someone on a soapbox especially when they are the ones being villified, all that will happen if you constantly preach is that non-smokers will carry on agreeing with you ( they would anyway) and smokers who did originally agree or might have agreed will just take exception to your preaching (see whackos replies). they will make an idiot of themselves as you can't argue with an emmotive argument and people like me who agree with most of what you say, but can see why whacko is getting annoyed will stand on the fence.

This is the one part of your post that I disagree with. I don't think this is an emotive argument. It is easy to argue against an emotive argument because that would be about feelings which are personal and different people feel things differently. This, however, is a health argument and it is based on facts proven by scientific study rather than emotion or feelings. The reaction is emotional but it is not the argument. The reason that people who disagree are reacting emotionally is because they have no other rational argument to continue to allow smoking in dance venues.

I don't think thewacko is getting especially angry, he's joining in the debate and putting his point of view - which often I've agreed with. He even had a friendly dig at me in his last post (thewacko, it would reassure me if you confirmed this as you are probably bigger than me:tears: ).


Originally posted by thewacko
Well at least it wont be too long before us smokers are no more and you non smokers can dance smoke free,

I think the evidence is that 1 in every 2 smokers will not die from smoking related diseases. I know that's surprising but that's how I read it. So, smokers, living your full natural lifespan depends on the toss of a coin. Therefore, on average, we can expect either thewaco or Azande to still be around for ages - but not both of them :tears: (statisticians please allow me this, I couldn't list enough smokers for a proper sample). It's the one in four that die 25 years early that skew the average life expectancy for smokers. That means another toss of the coin could see either one die very, very early. :tears: :tears: :tears:


Originally posted by thewacko
although by then you'll have found something else to moan about then thats bad for your health - like dancing in popeye suits :what:

You're right about that. Those forearms were a bit tight and very hot as I used the sleeves off a wetsuit. Also, I could have got splinters off the orange stick I used for the pipe. But the Popeye suit didn't harm anyone else's health - except maybe Nina's reputation :blush: Although I think a few people may have laughed themselves sick:sick:

And finally (phew!), I would love to be able to stop this thread. The thread that resulted in Ceroc Scotland banning smoking came to a halt when it achieved its objective. I hope we can do the same here in England and look forward to the day when nobody replies on this thread because smoking and dancing are no longer a current issue:D

[Tazmanian Devil]

Originally posted by PeterL
Now I have to butt in and point out to Taz that spamming a thread will also just get peoples backs up.

I am not spamming the thread at all Just replying to the points other people have quoted me while I have been away!!
Also expressing my opinion which I thought was supposed to be the idea of the forum!!:confused:



ceroc is fun

[TheTramp]

Tazmanian Devil & theWacko....

I'm sorry. But you cannot possibly justify any arguement for smoking in a public place. Most of the smokers I know wish they weren't, and would prefer to give it up. The only stance you can take is 'I'm going to do what I want, and sod the rest of you'. There is no other defence.

I don't want to make this personal, but your comments are blatently selfish and immature.

I'm sorry if this causes offence.

Steve

[Tazmanian Devil]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Tazmanian Devil & theWacko....

I'm sorry. But you cannot possibly justify any arguement for smoking in a public place. Most of the smokers I know wish they weren't, and would prefer to give it up. The only stance you can take is 'I'm going to do what I want, and sod the rest of you'. There is no other defence.

I don't want to make this personal, but your comments are blatently selfish and immature.

I'm sorry if this causes offence.

Steve

it's not the sod the rest of them attitude at the end of the day if people want to go to a non-smoking venue that is where they will go. But if people are not bothered whether people smoke or not then they will go to a smoking venue wont they!:wink:

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Tazmanian Devil
it's not the sod the rest of them attitude at the end of the day if people want to go to a non-smoking venue that is where they will go. But if people are not bothered whether people smoke or not then they will go to a smoking venue wont they!:wink: Yes. And I do.

But why should what you do affect what I can do. What gives you the right to stop me going to a place where I want to go? I have quite bad asthma. Dancing near someone smoking quite often makes me unable to breathe. I don't even care about the long term health worries (well, I do, but not as much as the short term ones). What you may be doing, directly affects the choice I have in what I want to do, in something that is totally avoidable. The only definition I have for that deliberate choice of action, is selfishness. Please suggest another, if you can.

Steve

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Giving up smoking happens the second after your last cigarette. The craving for the next ciggie can, unfortunately, last for years.



And finally (phew!), I would love to be able to stop this thread.
Giving up this thread happens the second after the last post.

The craving for another one can, unfortunately, last for years...:D :D

Chris

[thewacko]

Originally posted by TheTramp


But why should what you do affect what I can do. What gives you the right to stop me going to a place where I want to go?
Steve [/B]

:tears:

I HAVE MISSED THE REST OF THE QUOTE OUT ABOUT ASTHMA - I COME TO THAT LATER BUT ON THIS ITEM, THE SAME GOES VICE VERSA

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by Tazmanian Devil
I am not spamming the thread at all

Posting several times in a row without waiting for a reply is often seen as spamming! no big deal though.


Originally posted by PeterL

If you actually read my post DS you would have seen that I was not saying that Andy was wrong, just that preaching gets peoples goats up and that the argument was very emmotive.


oooh cheeky :) I did read your post, otherwise my replies would have been lucky to have been relevant in any way :)...and I didnt realise I insinuated that I thought you said Andy was wrong!

I dont think this thread has got anyones goat up, to any great degree anyway.... Andy has stated a point, some have disagreed with some of the points or misinterpreted them but its all been very civilized :). Yes you could say Andy has laboured the point somewhat...but thats the whole point of individual threads in forums like this, to keep to a point. Its one of the most on-point threads ever, mainly due to Andy being forced to reitterate the same points when people have missed the point. Do you see the point :rofl:


And as for this being an emotive thread, if it wasn't we'd expect Vulcan like replies based on nothing but logic. Ill got to the mensa web forum for that :)

[Tazmanian Devil]

Originally posted by ChrisA
[b]
Giving up this thread happens the second after the last post.

The craving for another one can, unfortunately, last for years...:D :D

Chris

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[PeterL]

Originally posted by Tazmanian Devil
I am not spamming the thread at all Just replying to the points other people have quoted me while I have been away!!
Also expressing my opinion which I thought was supposed to be the idea of the forum!!:confused:



ceroc is fun


Excuse me for thinking that 4 posts in a row is spamming, we all get emailed every time a post is made to this thread, so it does appear like spamming.

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by thewacko
:tears:

I HAVE MISSED THE REST OF THE QUOTE OUT ABOUT ASTHMA - I COME TO THAT LATER BUT ON THIS ITEM, THE SAME GOES VICE VERSA Ah. But the BIG difference is, that I'm not saying to you 'Don't Smoke anywhere'. I'm saying, please don't smoke next to the dance floor. Which is the only place where I can do what I want to do. By all means, go outside and smoke - and that's all that's ever been asked in this thread. I can't dance outside. Well, I can, but the music doesn't sound as good, and it wrecks my shoes :D

Steve

[thewacko]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Yes. And I do.

I have quite bad asthma. Dancing near someone smoking quite often makes me unable to breathe.

Steve

SURELY DANCING FULL STOP WOULD QUITE OFTEN MAKE YOU UNABLE TO BREATHE, AS CEROC IS PRETTY AEROBIC ANYWAY.!
:kiss:

[Tazmanian Devil]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Yes. And I do.

But why should what you do affect what I can do. What gives you the right to stop me going to a place where I want to go? I have quite bad asthma. Dancing near someone smoking quite often makes me unable to breathe. I don't even care about the long term health worries (well, I do, but not as much as the short term ones). What you may be doing, directly affects the choice I have in what I want to do, in something that is totally avoidable. The only definition I have for that deliberate choice of action, is selfishness. Please suggest another, if you can.

Steve

selfishness? What on your behalf? as I have said before you haven't got to go to a smoking venue just like I dont have to go to a non smoking venue! There are non smoking venues out there as im sure you are aware so why can't people just be happy with the equal oppertunities that lie at the moment instead of trying to make all venues non smoking regardless to whether they dance there or not ? :confused:

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by thewacko
THE SAME GOES VICE VERSA

By this do you mean to suggest that it would be selfish of theTramp to ask you not to smoke near the dance floor? or.... Hes suggesting you dont smoke because he has asthma ... are you suggesting its therefore selfish of him to have asthma ? Thats is pretty much what Vice Versa seems to suggest :what:


and why are you shouting ? :)

[Tazmanian Devil]

Originally posted by PeterL
Excuse me for thinking that 4 posts in a row is spamming, we all get emailed every time a post is made to this thread, so it does appear like spamming.

i am very sorry for the e-mails you have been sent although being away for a few days I hade some catching up to do!:sorry :hug:

[Tazmanian Devil]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
By this do you mean to suggest that it would be selfish of theTramp to ask you not to smoke near the dance floor? or.... Hes suggesting you dont smoke because he has asthma ... are you suggesting its therefore selfish of him to have asthma ? Thats is pretty much what Vice Versa seems to suggest :what:


and why are you shouting ? :)

I am not shouting, Just have a loud voice:rofl: which is probly a whole new thread:rofl:
I didn't say that it was selfish for the tramp to have asthma, Just to expect every venue to be non smoking regardless to whether or not he dances there.:wink:

[PeterL]

Originally posted by Tazmanian Devil
I am not shouting, Just have a loud voice:rofl: which is probly a whole new thread:rofl:
I didn't say that it was selfish for the tramp to have asthma, Just to expect every venue to be non smoking regardless to whether or not he dances there.:wink:


I am confused r tazmanian devil and the Whacko the same person or did Taz get confused and misread DS's reply?

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by Tazmanian Devil
selfishness? What on your behalf? as I have said before you haven't got to go to a smoking venue just like I dont have to go to a non smoking venue!

And he is not explicitly banned from spitting at you at a dance venue - but if he did would you say it was his right to inflict his spitting habit on others and its you're own fault for going there ? Or would you want some consideration ?

Im not trying to trivialise the whole thing, the only difference is that smoking is still socially acceptable, spitting is not - apart from that the analogy is perfectly valid. There may not be specific 'no spitting' venues...but spitting is generally not a problem (indoors at least :) ) in modern society that needs to be highlighted in this way.

No smoking venues are about enforcing consideration for your fellow dancers, some people can be considerate without being told to - no offence.

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Tazmanian Devil
selfishness? What on your behalf? as I have said before you haven't got to go to a smoking venue just like I dont have to go to a non smoking venue! There are non smoking venues out there as im sure you are aware so why can't people just be happy with the equal oppertunities that lie at the moment instead of trying to make all venues non smoking regardless to whether they dance there or not ? :confused: And what happens if the only venue near to me is a smoking venue. Or I have friends who go to a smoking venue because it's the only one they can get to, and I want to dance with them. Or any of the other possible permutations of the above.

Lets face it, it's commonly accepted that smoking is the most anti-social, social activity there is.

Most of the people I know who smoke, wish that they didn't (I have to admit that this number is very small, as I don't tend to have many smokers as friends, simply because I cannot be around them when they are indulging in what they want to do. All of my smoking friends are usually considerate people, who will go elsewhere to carry out their anti-social habit).

Steve

[PeterL]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
And he is not explicitly banned from spitting at you at a dance venue - but if he did would you say it was his right to inflict his spitting habit on others and its you're own fault for going there ? Or would you want some consideration ?

Im not trying to trivialise the whole thing, the only difference is that smoking is still socially acceptable, spitting is not - apart from that the analogy is perfectly valid. There may not be specific 'no spitting' venues...but spitting is generally not a problem (indoors at least :) ) in modern society that needs to be highlighted in this way.


well to be logical and vulcan about it, spitting at someone would be assault and I believe that is not allowed anywhere, the ban on it is implicit rather than explicit as you could charge someone for doing it.:blush:

[Tazmanian Devil]

Originally posted by PeterL
I am confused r tazmanian devil and the Whacko the same person or did Taz get confused and misread DS's reply? :sorry misread DS's reply:sorry :hug: :kiss:

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by PeterL
I am confused r tazmanian devil and the Whacko the same person or did Taz get confused and misread DS's reply?

I was about to ask the same thing :confused:

[thewacko]

:D

OK HOW ABOUT A SMALL COMPROMISE ON THIS DEBATE.

IF ANY OF YOU COME TO CHARLTON (THASTS SOUTH LONDON TO YOU FELLOW NORTHERN PEOPLE:D YOU WOULD FIND THAT IT IS A SMOKING VENUE:grin:

HOWEVER NOT ONLY DO THE SMOKERS QUITE OFTEN GO OUTSIDE TO SMOKE (INCLUDING MY SELF INDULGENT SELF :wink: ) BUT WHEN WE DO SMOKE INSIDE (:wink: YES IT DOES RAIN AND SNOW AND CAN ALSO BE QUITE COLD AT TIMES IN SOUTHERN ENGLAND) THE SMOKERS TEND TO CONGREGATE AROUND THE BAR AREA AS OPPOSED TO BEING SPREAD OUT ALL AROUND THE ROOM, WHICH DOES TEND TO LEAVE LITTLE POCKETS OF SMOGLESS AIR FOR ALL THE NON SMOKERS

:D EVERYBODY SEAMS TO BE CATERED FOR AT CHARLTON :D
AND I HAVE ALSO HEARD THROUGH THE GRAPEVINE THAT THE TAXI DANCERS ARE PRETTY NEAT THERE TOO

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by PeterL
well to be logical and vulcan about it, spitting at someone would be assault and I believe that is not allowed anywhere, the ban on it is implicit rather than explicit as you could charge someone for doing it.:blush:

how long before smoke is treated the same way one wonders. Theres already plenty lawsuits surrounding it. :)

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by PeterL
well to be logical and vulcan about it, spitting at someone would be assault and I believe that is not allowed anywhere, the ban on it is implicit rather than explicit as you could charge someone for doing it.:blush: Maybe the spitting thing is a bit of a red herring, since it is socially unacceptable.

But the fact remains, that by smoking, you are inflicting your wants/desires/needs on other people. And usually, these days, that is generally (smoking aside) considered unacceptable behaviour.

Steve

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by thewacko
:D

OK HOW ABOUT A SMALL COMPROMISE ON THIS DEBATE.

IF ANY OF YOU COME TO CHARLTON (THASTS SOUTH LONDON TO YOU FELLOW NORTHERN PEOPLE:D YOU WOULD FIND THAT IT IS A SMOKING VENUE:grin:

HOWEVER NOT ONLY DO THE SMOKERS QUITE OFTEN GO OUTSIDE TO SMOKE (INCLUDING MY SELF INDULGENT SELF :wink: ) BUT WHEN WE DO SMOKE INSIDE (:wink: YES IT DOES RAIN AND SNOW AND CAN ALSO BE QUITE COLD AT TIMES IN SOUTHERN ENGLAND) THE SMOKERS TEND TO CONGREGATE AROUND THE BAR AREA AS OPPOSED TO BEING SPREAD OUT ALL AROUND THE ROOM, WHICH DOES TEND TO LEAVE LITTLE POCKETS OF SMOGLESS AIR FOR ALL THE NON SMOKERS

:D EVERYBODY SEAMS TO BE CATERED FOR AT CHARLTON :D
AND I HAVE ALSO HEARD THROUGH THE GRAPEVINE THAT THE TAXI DANCERS ARE PRETTY NEAT THERE TOO Actually, I have been to Charlton on a few occasions. And found the smoke to be difficult to deal with. I did raise the point with Dan. When I went, there were ashtrays on all the tables on both sides of the dance floor, and people generally smoking at many of them at various points during the evening.

I am however, sure that the taxi dancers are pretty neat. As are the DJs and teachers :D

Steve

PS. Please depress the key on the left hand side of your keyboard that has 'Caps Lock' written on it, once. And once only :wink:

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Maybe the spitting thing is a bit of a red herring, since it is socially unacceptable.


which was my point. but say it wasnt socially unacceptable - you would still be selfish to spit at people without consideration for how they may feel about it.

How about sexist comments and abuse, cant get charged with assault for that but you could feasibly make people feel ill and prevent them from coming back to a venue - just as inconsiderate smokers can do sometimes.

PeterL sorry about that Vulcan thing, i concede you meant the topic was 'particularly emotive' and i suggested every post had to be in some way emotive - i was being pedantic as Grahams not here right now ;)

[Emma]

I am a non-smoker.

I think it would be a very good thing if all smokers would smoke outside. I find cigarette smoke unpleasant. I understand the risks of passive smoking and accept that it may be having an affect on my health. To be honest I haven't noticed smoke at the venues I dance at impacting on my dancing pleasure, indeed I dance regularly with smokers and enjoy my dances with them as much as I do with the non-smoking cerocers I dance with.

I am not personally very interested in a crusade against smoking in dance venues - however I understand that some people feel strongly about this, and that it may be for the greater good if those people who feel strongly pursue their goals vigourously. I *have* taken part in the vote on the thread and said that I did not like smoky dancefloors, and if there was a vote at a venue where I dance I would certainly vote for smoking restrictions or a ban.

*However* I agree with Peter. I feel that the tone of this thread has become about knocking the individual smokers who have been brave enough to post on this thread, and smokers in general. Whilst I completely understand that people have strong opinions on this front I feel that such a tone is likely to have a negative effect on any campaign to ban or restrict smoking at dance venue. People (smokers and non-smokers) will always react badly to being lectured about what they are doing *wrong* as opposed to being encouraged to do something *right*.

[thewacko]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
I was about to ask the same thing :confused:

LAST :rofl:

THE LAST TIME I LOOKED I WAS NOT ONLY A LOT OLDER THAN THE TAZMANIAN DEVIL :tears: BUT I WOULD NOT BE CAUGHT DEAD WEARING THOSE TROUSERS WITH THE LONG TASSELY BITS:rofl: PLUS I'M MUCH BETTER LOOKING.

PLUS MR:waycool: THEWACKO IS NOT MISS:cheers: TAZMANIAN DEVIL BY ANY STRETCH OF THE IMAGINATION

:waycool: BUT WATCH OUT AT NEXT YEARS CHAMPS WHERE ALL MAY BE REVEALED!

[PeterL]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
how long before smoke is treated the same way one wonders. Theres already plenty lawsuits surrounding it. :)


Not long I reckon, and as a smoker my feelings are mixed on this, I see the no smoking debate as right and am enough of a hypocrite to have never been out with a smoker because I find it a disgusting habit, but I can also see where smokers are coming from, one example to give you

is flying to Mexico recently 10 hour flight.

there is not a person in the world who does not know you cannot smoke on planes, but why they have to remind you of this every 2 seconds, on the tv screen over the tannoy, no smoking sign above your head. They might as well say
"in case you have relaxed and have managed to forget about smoking then we would like to remind you this is a non-smoking flight so as your mental cravings restart and you suffer more.

Then the mexico airport was no smoking yet there were ashtrays provided with no smoking stickers on them and people ignoring the signs as well. This is sheer torture half the addiction is mental and being reminded of smoking makes it worse.

I am not meaning to overly complain about this but no smokers do have a habit of constantly reminding us "we can't smoke here"

we do know and reminding us just makes us want to more

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by PeterL
well to be logical and vulcan about it, spitting at someone would be assault and I believe that is not allowed anywhere, the ban on it is implicit rather than explicit as you could charge someone for doing it.:blush:

If we were to take it to it's ultimate extreme, passive smoking shortens people's lives. That could be called murder:devil: but it isn't, not even when it's deliberately blown in someone's face.

Whilst on the spitting subject, it isn't illegal although a while back we introduced a by-law on my Council banning it outdoors. I voted against the by-law because it's unenforceable and petty. So far nobody has been prosecuted or fined or even told off. I was doing a walkabout with the police recently and saw boys spitting outside a school. Momentarily being devils advocate (Gus wasn't there) I asked the Sergeant who was with me why he didn't do anything about it - he said he'd be wasting his time and didn't want to be spat at as soon as he turned his back.

The spitting analogy is ok but it doesn't go deep enough. If someone spat in my face I could wipe it off and return to the same state as I was previously. If I breathed someones smoke I couldn't give my lungs and circulation a quick wipe with a tissue. It's much more deep rooted and pervasive than a Handy Andy can cope with.

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by PeterL
we do know and reminding us just makes us want to more

Thats the difficulty of being in such a transition period - over the last 20 years or so there has been increasing awareness of the fact that smoking is not in any way good for you, another 20 years there'll be no cigarette advertising at all and it'll be viewed more and more as a dumb thing to do, so less new smokers will start.

As someone who has never smoked though its easy for me to be critical of smokers, i do realise its not that easy to get rid of a habit forming drug and as you say you're reminded everywhere you go not to do it. Which I can identify with as I used to be a big coffee drinker and reading about coffee makes me want one - its just a trigger that makes your brain remind you of your 'need' :). I drink coffee much less now though.

Id hope this thread hasn't become a personal issue with anyone when its always tried to be general. Generally smokers shouldnt smoke near a dance floor and we love all dancers.. even smokers ;). Just to make that clear :)

Interesting that you bring up planes, as i think if you smoke on a plane you will be charged nowadays! On some american airlines it wouldnt surprise me if spitting was more acceptable! really it wouldnt! I would never get as anal about smoking as some american companies/people seem to be. :rolleyes:

[Dance Demon]

Think the reason that airlines keep on about no smoking on planes is partly due, certainly on long haul flights, to the fact that some people simply can not go for several hours without a fag, and try to flaunt the rules by sneaking off to the loo for a quick puff. People who are addicted to anything will generally try to get a fix if they think they won't get caught. A Glasgow woman was recently arrested for continually trying to use her mobile phone on the plane, despite several requests not to. The airline refused to let her travel back to scotland on any of their planes.....
Consideration for fellow man is what is required. Smokers have to realise that their habit is found offensive by the majority of non smokers. On the other hand, non smokers have to realise that nicotine addiction, although self inflicted is very commonplace, and separate areas for people who do smoke is probably the best solution to keep the two party,s apart. Anyone who finds the smell of cigarettes on another persons clothes or breath offensive has the freedom of choice to refuse to dance with them if they so desire. Life is short, (probably more so if you smoke:wink: even passively).. but we all must learn to live together while we are on this mortal coil:D

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
I missed that then, thought the point was 'no smoking in rooms where dancing is taking place'. I know I had a dig at people smoking outside at Beach Boogie, where I needed to grab some fresh air, and escape from the gorgeous women for a bit. But I can't recall Andy ever complaining about people smoking outside.

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Sheepman
I know I had a dig at people smoking outside at Beach Boogie, where I needed to grab some fresh air, and escape from the gorgeous women for a bit. But I can't recall Andy ever complaining about this.

I complain about gorgeous women all the time:devil:

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Sheepman
and escape from the gorgeous women for a bit.
Sheepster, I'm so sorry, I didn't realise you were sick :( :(
Chris

[Graham]

Originally posted by Sheepman
I know I had a dig at people smoking outside at Beach Boogie, where I needed to grab some fresh air, and escape from the gorgeous women for a bit. That explains why you never seemed to need to go to bed - you were obviously sleeping (and dreaming!) on your feet!! :wink:

[Pammy]

Originally posted by Sheepman
I know I had a dig at people smoking outside at Beach Boogie, where I needed to grab some fresh air, and escape from the gorgeous women for a bit. But I can't recall Andy ever complaining about people smoking outside.

Are you saying that those women who were sleeping outside were not gorgeous??!! :tears: :reallymad :wink:

Right, off with your thong! :wink: :wink:

I mean tie! :what:

I mean head! :innocent:

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Pammy
Are you saying that those women who were sleeping outside were not gorgeous??!! :tears: :reallymad :wink:

Right, off with your thong! :wink: :wink:

I mean tie! :what:

I mean head! :innocent:

It sounds like those gorgeous women outside wouldn't have been able to sleep for the cigarette smoke :devil:

[Chris]

I can think of some well known top dancers who smoke occasionally - but you would never know unless you've shared a fag with 'em :devil: :blush:

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Chris
I can think of some well known top dancers who smoke occasionally - but you would never know unless you've shared a fag with 'em :devil: :blush:

I know at least one top dancer who smokes more often than occasionally. I also know a top DJ who has a crafty puff in the DJ booth itself:devil:

But that doesn't weaken my argument that 'Smoking and Dancing Don't Mix'. All it means it that some good dancers smoke. So do a lot of beginners. Once the smoke has left their cigarette or lungs it doesn't matter where it started. Irrespective of how good a dancer the smoker is their smoke ends up in my bloodstream, lungs, hair throat, clothes, eyes, etc if they smoke next to the dance floor I'm trying to dance on.

Although I must say that I've never seen any of the top dancers smoking in the same room as the dancing or lessons. They usually pop outside, even in a smoking venue - which is nice:D :D

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by Pammy
Are you saying that those women who were sleeping outside were not gorgeous??!! There you go again Pammy, tying me up in knots once more. :wink:

G x

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by Chris
I can think of some well known top dancers who smoke occasionally - but you would never know unless you've shared a fag with 'em :devil: :blush:
I had a dance with one of the medal winners last Sunday, I'd forgotten she smoked, as she always does it outside, but the nerves must have really got to her that day, it smelt like she'd been through a couple of packets. Definitely no UCP there!

Greg

[TheTramp]

Just watching Richard & Judy (I was told that there was a discussion about anti-smoking on there. I don't normally watch Richard & Judy. Honest :blush: ).

Anyhow. They had a phone in poll, which had one of their biggest ever responses.

The poll was: Should smoking be banned in all public places. The result was 76% YES, 24% NO. Which is pretty conclusive.

Interestingly, in Bhutan, smoking is now being TOTALLY banned. You won't even be able to smoke in your home there now. I'm considering moving there :D Aren't you all happy now?

Steve

[Forte]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Just watching Richard & Judy (I was told that there was a discussion about anti-smoking on there. I don't normally watch Steve

You students have too much time on your hands...watching Richard & Judy? I don't know!!!!!:what: :wink:

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Forte
You students have too much time on your hands...watching Richard & Judy? I don't know!!!!!:what: :wink:

The Tramp is a strange kind of student. He can afford a TV and he doesn't drink at all :what:

I suppose that now he's moved to Scotland, all those people who were allowing smoking to put him off going to their venues can now ban it:devil:

Worth a try:wink:

[Andy McGregor]

Here is an article I've copied from today's Daily Mail. Of particular relevance to the smoking in venues argument is the bit near the end regarding the mechanism of secondhand smoke causing heart attacks and the 40 hours nicotine and carbon-monoxide spend in our blood after only 30 minutes exposure to secondhand smoke:sick:

Reproduced from the Daily Mail Thursday 16th October 2003, P43

Heart attacks plunge as town bans smoking

A town that banned smoking in public for six months saw heart attack rates plunge by almost 60 per cent. But when the prohibition was lifted, the rate quickly bounced back to its previous level.

The study involved a remote U.S. town with just one cardiac hospital – offering laboratory-perfect conditions – and the researchers said they were ‘stunned’ by the results.

The smoking ban in Helena, Montana, was imposed and rescinded as a result of a glitch in state politics. In June 2002, the state legislature, under pressure for having one of the worst health education records, banned smoking in Helena’s restaurants, ars, public buildings, buses, taxis and shops.

But in December, the state bowed to pressure from the tobacco lobby and Montana Tavern Association and lifted the ban.

Helena is a geographically isolated town with a population of 66,000 and only one hospital for cardiac care, St Peters, within a 60 mile radius. This made it easy to control the study sample and methodology. The researchers found there was no change in heart attack rates among those who lived outside the city limits, where there was no ban. But for urban residents, the rate dropped by 58 per cent in six months. It returned to the previous levels six months after the ban was lifted.

While the actual figures are statistically small, the researchers are adamant the results are reliable and could be applied to bigger samples.

The American Heart Association and the American Cancer Society are using the study in a bid to get smoking banned in all public buildings. Already it is banned in public places in New York. Ireland and the Netherlands have also decided to ban smoking in workplaces, restaurants and pubs from next January, and Brussels wants other EU member countries to follow suit.

Stanton Glantz, a professor of medicine who conducted the statistical analysis for the Montana study, said: ‘We know from longer-term studies that the effects of secondhand smoke can occur within minutes, an that long-term exposure to secondhand smoke is associated with a 30 per cent increased risk of heart attacks. But it was quite stunning to document so large an effect so quickly.

Researcher Dr Richard Sargent said a previous study showed smokers’ spouses were 30 per cent more likely to have a heart attack. ‘Secondhand smoke causes your arteries to spasm so they carry less blood and a clot will block the artery. ‘We can measure nicotine or carbon monoxide in your system for 40 hours after a 30-minute exposure. An immediate decline in heart attacks is possibly due to the absence of smoke.’

St Peter’s Hospital has now set up a wider study with the University of California in San Francisco. Dr Robert Shephard, from St Peter’s said the study proves that the health benefits of smoking bans are not theoretical. ‘They are real and they are immediate,’ he added.

[Tazmanian Devil]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by thewacko
LAST :rofl:

THE LAST TIME I LOOKED I WAS NOT ONLY A LOT OLDER THAN THE TAZMANIAN DEVIL :tears: BUT I WOULD NOT BE CAUGHT DEAD WEARING THOSE TROUSERS WITH THE LONG TASSELY BITS:rofl:

I don't think they would suit you hunny :na:



[QUOTE]Originally posted by thewacko PLUS I'M MUCH BETTER LOOKING.

Yeah yeah darling course you are!!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Sheepman]

Friday night I was dancing at Ealing, when this woman sitting next to me lit up a cigarette, I apologised to my partner for breaking off the dance half way through (it was a great track too). I went over and said, "Excuse me, but this is a no smoking venue." She replied, "I asked, and was told it was alright." I said to her that I was surprised, and that I would check with the organiser. Was this just a line from her? I'm sure I was, as I can't think of anyone there aho would have told her it is OK to smoke.
I carried on with the rest of that dance, with clouds of smoke wafting over us.
At the end of that track, I checked with Franco, who was as surprised as I was. After an announcement from the DJ, I didn't see her light up again.

Now I know not all smokers are as inconsiderate as this, but for me it just confirms that smoking needs to be banned in places of work, so that people like this finally get the message.

Greg

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Sheepman
At the end of that track, I checked with Franco, who was as surprised as I was. After an announcement from the DJ, I didn't see her light up again.
Greg
Maybe JB needs to set an example, even on the stage...

Chris

[Dreadful Scathe]

Cattle Prods.

Thats all Im saying :).





bzzz zzz zzzzz t

[stewart38]

I pitty all the smokers in the world (I'm a non smoker) seems to be a real pathological hate towards them.

I think I would prefer some passive smoking to being spat at in the face. (previous comment) :what:




stew

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
Cattle Prods.
bzzz zzz zzzzz t
I spose that'll do for a start. :devil: :devil:

Chris

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by ChrisA
I spose that'll do for a start. :devil: :devil:

Chris
Oops, posted that to the wrong thread. That was meant as an addendum to my "death to perverts" rant.

Smokers in non-smoking venues are fine providing they aren't smoking anywhere I can breathe it, like on or near the floor. :tears:

Chris

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Sheepman
Now I know not all smokers are as inconsiderate as this, but for me it just confirms that smoking needs to be banned in places of work, so that people like this finally get the message.

Greg

Well done Sheepy for speaking to her:waycool:

The problem with banning smoking in places of work is that also means places of recreation. People are still working in the smoking section of restaurants, pubs, etc.

Do I sound too sensible? I'm just being realistic. What we need is a change in the law - we were promised one but it hasn't happened. And I'm not blaming Labour I'm blaming the smokers. There's a significant minority of them that are selfish and unreasonable. They will fight for their right to shorten our lives with their poisonous smoke - sound to extreme? What do you call a chemical that causes disease if it isn't a poison?

The problem is that it's a legal poison. The only thing we can do at present is to avoid places where the poison is present until a government, of any political persuasion, has the guts to do something about it. Don't try holding you breath, it's going to be years...

And we'll be lucky to see a total ban on tobacco products in our lifetimes:tears:

p.s. Who was this woman? Put her near the Lindy Hoppers:devil:

[stewart38]

Andy you promote the joy of smoking with your pipe. You are know and love for the 'man with the pipe'.

Surely that leaves people with the impression thats it ok to smoke and dance at ceroc ?

Regardless of wether the pipe is a fake,the fact you dance with a pipe in your mouth (regardless of the connection with pop eye) suggest something is a miss

If I wanted drinking banned everywhere and wanted to shoot all drinkers but danced with a glass of beer in my hand (fake or not) I think something would be a miss.

I am only joking but it does seem with a pic of a pipe in your mouth,odd, don't mean to offend :confused:

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
p.s. Who was this woman? Put her near the Lindy Hoppers:devil: No need for that, she wasn't a dancer, so I'm not sure why she was there, I doubt that she'll become a regular. Of all the scary outfits there that night, hers was the scariest, though she wasn't in fancy dress! :really:

Under normal circumstances I would have asked her for a dance anyway, but after she lit up, and the way she reacted to my very polite advice about the no smoking policy, I just kept my distance for the night.

Greg

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by stewart38
Andy you promote the joy of smoking with your pipe. You are know and love for the 'man with the pipe'.

Surely that leaves people with the impression thats it ok to smoke and dance at ceroc ?

Regardless of wether the pipe is a fake,the fact you dance with a pipe in your mouth (regardless of the connection with pop eye) suggest something is a miss

If I wanted drinking banned everywhere and wanted to shoot all drinkers but danced with a glass of beer in my hand (fake or not) I think something would be a miss.

I am only joking but it does seem with a pic of a pipe in your mouth,odd, don't mean to offend :confused:

I think I was only recommending the shooting of creeps, wierdos and perverts. I was suggesting that smokers were put near the Lindy Hoppers so they could have their shins kicked

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by stewart38
Andy you promote the joy of smoking with your pipe. You are know and love for the 'man with the pipe'.

Surely that leaves people with the impression thats it ok to smoke and dance at ceroc ?

Regardless of wether the pipe is a fake,the fact you dance with a pipe in your mouth (regardless of the connection with pop eye) suggest something is a miss

If I wanted drinking banned everywhere and wanted to shoot all drinkers but danced with a glass of beer in my hand (fake or not) I think something would be a miss.

I am only joking but it does seem with a pic of a pipe in your mouth,odd, don't mean to offend :confused:

I think I was only recommending the shooting of creeps, wierdos and perverts. I was suggesting that smokers were put near the Lindy Hoppers so they could have their shins kicked:devil:

But you have got a point about the pipe so, as Pammy's changed her avatar I've changed mine to a picture I had on my computer. Anyone complains I'll point them in your direction.:devil: :devil:

[Minnie M]

I reckon your duplicate post was for forumites could have a real
good look at your sexy legs avatar !:drool:

Did you just edit your last post ?? didn't see the last bit - anyway nice to see a new avatar, not quite as sexy as pammy's tho

[Pammy]

Originally posted by Minnie M
nice to see a new avatar, not quite as sexy as pammy's tho

So, still not as sexy as a cold wet fish then Andy :wink:

Dory
x

[stewart38]

Pam,

I think its a powdered blue tang that you are being swallowed by ?

fishman stew

:sick:

[Forte]

Andy, please please put this new avatar away!!! :tears: :tears: Although the girls are lovely!! I need a censored across the middle!!:sick:

[Pammy]

Originally posted by stewart38
I think its a powdered blue tang that you are being swallowed by ?

You could be right; my guard was down (temporarily), blame sprout boy, king of ironing, lord of the short laces....

Dory
x

[Graham]

Originally posted by Pammy
So, still not as sexy as a cold wet fish then Andy :wink:

Dory
x Who's Andy? :wink:

[Pammy]

Just remember Graham, not long now; T-19 days :grin:

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Anyone complains I'll point them in your direction.:devil: :devil: This is a very sneaky way of justifying something that I'd hoped never to see again, shouldn't that avatar only be available upstairs? Time for a new poll? Which is worse, confinement to a smoke filled room, or having to see Andy in that outfit all day? :sick: :sick:

Greg

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Pammy
So, still not as sexy as a cold wet fish then Andy :wink:

Dory
x

I'm told I'm about as sexy as a cold, wet, DEAD fish - but I don't think I'm THAT sexy:wink:

To put Greg's mind at rest I'll only leave this Avatar there long enough for the joke to wear off....

[Pammy]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
To put Greg's mind at rest I'll only leave this Avatar there long enough for the joke to wear off....

Oh I don't know, it has a plus-side; they do say a change is as good as a miss and all that? Right? :what:

I say keep the new one! :grin:

[Jon L]

You will all be mighty relieved to know that Andy turned up somewhat more traditionally dressed on Saturday night :nice:

he was thinking of permanently making it his normal modern jive outfit but was persuaded otherwise:wink:

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Jon L
You will all be mighty relieved to know that Andy turned up somewhat more traditionally dressed on Saturday night :nice:

he was thinking of permanently making it his normal modern jive outfit but was persuaded otherwise:wink:

This was the first time Jon L had met me. He doesn't realise that the fawn linen suit with braces and a white shirt I wore were completely out of character - although I don't always cross dress...

... oh yes he does..

.. oh no he doesn't..

...oh yes he does...

p.s. Just preparing for the panto season - ugly sister of jive costume coming up I think:wink:

[Graham]

Originally posted by Pammy
Just remember Graham, not long now; T-19 days :grin: Of course I remember - it's you who's presumably going to be turning up in Sydney harbour while we're all at the Beach Ballroom. :grin:

[Jon L]

see next post (moderators please delete this one - thanks)

[Jon L]

Speaking of getting ready for panto season - see below - last Christmas where we all had to dress up as pantomime characters (I am the genie in the lamp here),

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Jon L
Speaking of getting ready for panto season - see below - last Christmas where we all had to dress up as pantomime characters (I am the genie in the lamp here),

Looking at that picture my only thought is 'Welcome to my island':devil:

What was his name?:confused:

[Andy McGregor]

Just to get back to the smoking theme (I let it wander for a while because we were talking about dressing up - my favourite subject!). I'm going back to Dartford this Thursday. I know I said I wasn't going to but I'm trusting and soft. Also, an old girlfriend of mine called Steph (from when I was 15!!!) lives in Rochester and would like to give it a go.

The people at www.danceriviera.com promise me that they've really got on top of the smoking now and we should be able to dance without risking our health. It would be great if some of the Forum people could come along and show them our 'style':devil:

Of course I couldn't recommend Rochester Ceroc to Steph because it would damage her heath as they still allow smoking there.

Incidentally, I was told some time ago by the lovely Virginia that they were reconsidering their smoking policy. I've heard nothing so they must still be puffing away and making other dancers ill when they are allowed to smoke by the venue owners:sick:

Come on CerocKent what are you thinking of continuing to allow smoking next to the dance floor?

[Chicky]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
The people at www.danceriviera.com promise me that they've really got on top of the smoking now and we should be able to dance without risking our health.


Hi, Nicky from Dance Riviera here, as Andy has said, when he came to Dartford (on the week we were on holiday), there were a group of smokers. I expected a 'fight' the following week when I returned after Andy's email to me, but to my surprise, the group didn't return and we had no problem with anyone smoking.

NO ashtrays are put on the tables and if one is asked for at the bar, the barperson tells them to smoke outside. There's signs on every table, a non-smoking policy clause in our membership conditions and a big sign as you walk in! What more can a girl do!

I've had no problem with anyone smoking since we put the policy in place and everyone respects the policy (having spoken 1:1 with the smokers personally).

If anyone is caught smoking despite all these measures I've put in place, they will be asked to leave, as their actions contravene membership conditions which they have accepted.

We look forward to seeing Andy on Thursday to give him a good time (ooh err)

Nicky

[TheTramp]

And Nicky, I hope that you'll be coming to Camber to give me a good time too :D

Steve

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Chicky
We look forward to seeing Andy on Thursday to give him a good time (ooh err)

Nicky

I'll try to make it a mutual thing:wink:

[Chicky]

Originally posted by TheTramp
And Nicky, I hope that you'll be coming to Camber to give me a good time too :D

Steve


Well Steve, I aim to please ;) See you at Camber

Nx

[Andy McGregor]

Well, I went to Dartford last Thursday as Nicky promised me that she would run away with me if I smelt cigarette smoke. I'm sorry to say that the air stayed fresh and clean all night:devil:

It was a really good night some of the women who were beginners are now good dancers. I had a dance with Nicky's husband Jim who knows loads more moves than me and I had a very sexy dance with Nicky in which she promised to meet me behind the bike sheds at Camber if I gave her classes an honourable mention on the Forum (this is that plug Nicky, I'll bring my own bicycle clips and pump:devil: )

I also, hear that Nicky and Jim went to Warmwell last weekend. They entered the lucky dip and got each other! So, purely by chance, a teacher and his demonstrator got paired up. I hear they won but refused to take the prize (quite rightly).

So I can now give the all clear to Dartford. I can also report that I've heard nothing back from Ceroc Kent regarding changing their smoking policy. Which brings me on to my next point. While I was comparing Ceroc with the independents on another thread it dawned on me that ALL of the classes I've been to which STILL allow smoking next to the dance floor are Ceroc classes - I now know of NO independent classes that allow smoking:D (there probably are some but I've never been to them). Although I do know of quite a few independents that still allow smoking in their dances:sick:

[Chicky]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
I had a dance with Nicky's husband Jim who knows loads more moves than me and I had a very sexy dance with Nicky in which she promised to meet me behind the bike sheds at Camber if I gave her classes an honourable mention on the Forum (this is that plug Nicky, I'll bring my own bicycle clips and pump:devil: )



Thanks Andy
:kiss: But it's not me that wants to meet you behind the bike sheds, it's Jim!! you must have impressed him with your 'porn star, bum in groin' move that you did with him. :wink:

Yes we did win the Dance with a Stranger and specifically told the judges not to put us through as it was too late to swap a partner, so thought we'd just have some fun. To win was great but totally unfair.

Warmwell was fantastic and what better way to spend your birthday.

Roll on Camber.

Nicky x

p.s. a smoking gripe about Warmwell, there were signs around the edge of the dance floor (by the tables) asking them not to smoke - did they adhere, no they did not! One lady blew smoke in Jim's face whilst we were sitting. He looked at her, waving his hand at her smoke to give her the message and she GLARED at him and gave him the finger. There's no winning with some people.

[Funky Si]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Come on CerocKent what are you thinking of continuing to allow smoking next to the dance floor?

Andy,

Why don't you come down to Canterbury a NON-SMOKING Ceroc Kent (www.cerockent.com) venue? My 'thought police' have successfully eradicated all the smokers and we have air actually cleaner than a Swiss mountain meadow in spring.

Seriously though, please don't automatically assume that just because certain venues you have visited are smokers-biased, that they all are!

Funky Si (General, Panzer Division, Canterbury)


www.kordmusic.com

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Chicky
Yes we did win the Dance with a Stranger and specifically told the judges not to put us through as it was too late to swap a partner, so thought we'd just have some fun. To win was great but totally unfair. Sorry. Don't agree that it was unfair at all....

The other name for DWAS is 'lucky dip'. That's the whole point of it. Sometimes you get lucky. Sometimes you don't. I don't see that there's a problem dancing with whoever you get. And in fact, I think that switching partners is bad, because you're not then allowing it to be a random event. By switching partners, you're fixing it in a way.

Steve

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Funky Si
Andy,

Why don't you come down to Canterbury a NON-SMOKING Ceroc Kent I find it very hard to believe that someone is actually encouraging Andy to go to their dance.

Normally dance organisers put up barricades 300 yards around their venues in a vain attempt to stop him gaining entry! :D

Steve

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Funky Si
Andy,

Why don't you come down to Canterbury a NON-SMOKING Ceroc Kent (www.cerockent.com) venue? My 'thought police' have successfully eradicated all the smokers and we have air actually cleaner than a Swiss mountain meadow in spring.

Seriously though, please don't automatically assume that just because certain venues you have visited are smokers-biased, that they all are!

Funky Si (General, Panzer Division, Canterbury)


www.kordmusic.com

Hi Funky Si

I would love to come to Canterbury. But the moral question is, should I support a business that is knowingly killing people? Your venue sound great. But Ceroc Kent has a policy that allows smoking next to the dance floor - and there is clear evidence that passive smoking shortens lives.

Now to business. ROCHESTER. This is a Ceroc Kent venue. They smoke next to the dance floor. This is killing people - not today or tomorrow but it is shortening people's lives - justify this policy to me and the others on the Forum. When you can justify this I'll come to Canterbury. Until that time I will not put a penny into the pocket of Ceroc Kent and recommend that right-thinkng, non-smoking dancers follow my example.

[Funky Si]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Hi Funky Si

I would love to come to Canterbury. But the moral question is, should I support a business that is knowingly killing people? Your venue sound great. But Ceroc Kent has a policy that allows smoking next to the dance floor - and there is clear evidence that passive smoking shortens lives.

Now to business. ROCHESTER. This is a Ceroc Kent venue. They smoke next to the dance floor. This is killing people - not today or tomorrow but it is shortening people's lives - justify this policy to me and the others on the Forum. When you can justify this I'll come to Canterbury. Until that time I will not put a penny into the pocket of Ceroc Kent and recommend that right-thinkng, non-smoking dancers follow my example.

Andy,

Firstly, let me say personally I do agree with you in that everywhere would be better non-smoking, not just dancing venues, but public places, pubs, etc. After all, it is a nasty and lethal habit.

But......

You have got to keep this issue in perspective. As I understood it your aim was to hopefully get smoke-free dance venues. Well, as I have said before Canterbury is a smoke-free venue because myself, Kris and the rest of our crew have worked damn hard in ensuring that it is both a smoke-free venue but more importantly a fun venue. Please take this into account before you make sweeping statements, as this is disresepectful to everyone who actually attends Canterbury!

I understand you are passionate about this subject, as indeed are hundreds of thousands of others, including myself, but to avoid running the risk of sounding like a ranting lunatic, embrace and praise the non-smoking dance venues, where ever they are, and keep up a rational and non-personal battle with the others that are yet to change and I am sure you will get further!

Funky Si


www.kordmusic.com

[Emma]

Originally posted by Funky Si
I understand you are passionate about this subject, as indeed are hundreds of thousands of others, including myself, but to avoid running the risk of sounding like a ranting lunatic, embrace and praise the non-smoking dance venues, where ever they are, and keep up a rational and non-personal battle with the others that are yet to change and I am sure you will get further! Hear hear.. .. Andy it is seriously beginning to sound as though to have an axe to grind re Ceroc Kent in particular, and Ceroc in general - *all* the Ceroc classes you've been to allow smoking? :confused: - That's hardly surprising if you're refusing to attend the ones people have told you are non-smoking! And what about the thousands of classes and venues that haven't been mentioned? :nice:

[Will]

You think this discussion is heated??? This is tame...

You should see all the shinnanigans going on on the Ceroc Amsterdam forum. :what:

[Emma]

Originally posted by Will
You think this discussion is heated??? This is tame... Nah..I think the DJ Booth is heated :what: My nerves are too touched even to comment there! :rofl: :wink:

[Tazmanian Devil]

Originally posted by Emma
Nah..I think the DJ Booth is heated :what: My nerves are too touched even to comment there! :rofl: :wink:

:rofl: :rofl: I will have to agree with you there luv, But I do love a good heated disscusion:cheers: :hug: :kiss:

[stewart38]

Yes as I said before there has been no proof yet provided that passive smoking is bad for you (I'm quoting from other sources)

Its probably a bit like global warming the evidence is inconclusive although 99% of the front line stuff on global warming and its causes take it as 'fact' that man has caused it

ps don't shoot the messenger

:cool:

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Emma
Hear hear.. .. Andy it is seriously beginning to sound as though to have an axe to grind re Ceroc Kent in particular, and Ceroc in general - *all* the Ceroc classes you've been to allow smoking? :confused: - That's hardly surprising if you're refusing to attend the ones people have told you are non-smoking! And what about the thousands of classes and venues that haven't been mentioned? :nice: The points I would have made are that I didn't say that all Ceroc classes I'd been to allow smoking. I do like Ceroc classes and go to at least 1 a week. I do have it in for someone and it's not Ceroc Kent or Ceroc it's Jeff Jasper. The reason I've upped the ante by saying we should avoid all Ceroc Kent venues is that what I've done so far has had no affect. I'd like Ceroc Kent to realise that they can make more money by banning smoking than they will make keeping it - and to do that we need to get them to take notice - something they've not been doing at the moment.

I know it's no big deal but it is fun.

Regards

Andy

(Andy asked me to post this for him, as he's made his 'Last Post' of the day (in the rememberence day thread), and apparently it won't keep until tomorrow!!)

Steve

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Emma
Hear hear.. .. Andy it is seriously beginning to sound as though to have an axe to grind re Ceroc Kent in particular, and Ceroc in general - *all* the Ceroc classes you've been to allow smoking? :confused: - That's hardly surprising if you're refusing to attend the ones people have told you are non-smoking! And what about the thousands of classes and venues that haven't been mentioned? :nice:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Andy McGregor
And more than half of the Ceroc venues in my area STILL ALLOW SMOKING - in fact, all of the smoking classes I know are Ceroc venues - only one of the independents, Jeff Jasper of Dance Party, allows smoking at his dance venues and I recommend you stay away from him as he told me to 'go f**k yourself' when I brought up the smoking subeject. Having said all of that, I probably go to a Ceroc venue 3 to 5 times a month out of the 15 nights I'll go dancing.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Today, I will make my own defence as I have been, I'm sure with good intention, misquoted and had the meaning of what I've said taken wrongly. However, I do admit that it must feel like I have been going on about this subject too much and for too long. In my defence, that's because there hasn't been the desired affect yet. Should I give up the fight just because it's taking too long or is a bit boring?

As you can see from the above, I DIDN'T say that ALL of the Ceroc classes I'd been to allow smoking. I said 'all of the smoking classes I KNOW are Ceroc venues' which is completely different. I didn't single out Ceroc Kent as I know of at least one other franchise that allows smoking and is even more smoky than Rochester:sick: My objective is clear, I want Ceroc to see how out of step and behind the times they are on the smoking and dancing issue. The people at the top of Ceroc might see it's time to change their policy if they could see that they are allowing smoking next to the dance floor and nobody else in the market is.

My previous posting about Ceroc Kent is as a result of them doing nothing in spite of telling me they were going to be "giving the matter our full consideration". That was 2 months ago and no changes have been made! It seems to me that Ceroc Kent need to be reminded that they need to "seriously reconsider" their smoking policy. And for 'good men to stand idly by' and let the matter rest is unlikely to produce the required results.

On the subject of other smoking venues, I can only comment on the venues I've attended. I expect there are many other smoking venues around the country. Perhaps they should be outed too. People could put the details of smoking venues on this thread or send me a PM or email so that I can do it. But, from my own observation I can honestly say that of those venues I've attended recently, no independent classes allowed smoking and some Ceroc classes allowed smoking.

I do not have an "axe to grind" with Ceroc or Ceroc Kent. I love Ceroc. Everyone you meet at Ceroc is nice and I've got no problem with any of them - they're fellow dancers. As I said, the only dance organiser I really have an "axe to grind" for is Jeff Jasper. He's been very rude to me, he's been rude to some of my friends and in my opinion he's contributed to spoiling the dancing in the Brighton area - oh, and he himself doesn't even really do Modern Jive, he does 'Hustle'. On the other hand, Ceroc have now come into the area and will make local dancing great again - so I think Ceroc are fantastic:D :D :D

p.s. There was a bit earlier about the case for passive smoking causing disease being not proven, IT SAYS IT DOES ON THE PACKETS. This issue was addressed earlier in this thread. It's been proven in scientific study and it's been proven in court. I just don't think we need to repeat that proof here - unless anyone would like me to:innocent: :D

[Emma]

For the record Andy, this is the post I was referring to:

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
it dawned on me that ALL of the classes I've been to which STILL allow smoking next to the dance floor are Ceroc classes I was commenting upon the fact that as I see it you were making a slightly misleading comment about Ceroc venues vs independant venues....as several times you have said to Si that you won't attend his venue, despite his assertions that it is non-smoking.

Personally I feel it would be far more valuable to ask people to let you know if venues are *non* smoking, and then concentrate upon promoting them. Then this thread might be a positive one which people can visit to get useful information about where to go to enjoy a smoke-free night's dancing, rather than one in which people argue pettily about a matter which most of us actually agree on. So in this spirit of posiitivity here is a list of the local non-smoking venues that I know about -

Ceroc Scotland - All nights
Ceroc Greenwich - Tuesdays (West Greenwich Community Centre, Greenwich)
Ceroc Metro - Sundays (David Lloyd Centre, Chigwell)
Ceroc Kent - Fridays (Park Langley, West Wickham)
Ceroc Kent - Wednesdays (Cantebury)
Ceroc London - St Mary's (Baker Street)

This list is short as it basically only includes the places I have been to. I'm absolutely sure that within hours it could be very very much longer if we were only encouraging a positive aproach rather than banging on about how smoking kills people. We *know* that. It hasn't been working well as an argument to stop people smoking for years, and it isn't likely to start now.

I'm sure that it would be far easier to persuade Ceroc HQ that they should make it policy to ban smoking across the organisation if people were to actively promote the advantages of the non-smoking venue, rather than forcing them and individual franchisees to dig their heels in because they feel under attack. How about writing to them? How about arranging a petition? As a politician I'm sure you know all about lobbying. As a teacher I know nothing about lobbying, but everything about the effectiveness of a positive aproach. Once again I appeal to you - be positive about this issue. I am sure you would get so much further that way.

[azande]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
I do admit that it must feel like I have been going on about this subject too much and for too long.
I couldn't possibly comment on that!!!!!!!!!:wink:

In my defence, that's because there hasn't been the desired affect yet. Should I give up the fight just because it's taking too long or is a bit boring?
Or maybe you are targeting the wrong audience?

[Aleks]

Originally posted by Emma
As a politician I'm sure you know all about lobbying. As a teacher I know nothing about lobbying, but everything about the effectiveness of a positive aproach. Once again I appeal to you - be positive about this issue. I am sure you would get so much further that way.

YES!

[Tiggerbabe]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
I would love to come to Canterbury. But the moral question is, should I support a business that is knowingly killing people? Your venue sound great.Then go to it Andy, Si has told you that the venue doesn't allow smoking next to the dancefloor.
I didn't single out Ceroc KentI think you did, see below.
Until that time I will not put a penny into the pocket of Ceroc Kent and recommend that right-thinking, non-smoking dancers follow my example. I, too, agree with you (and as Emma said most of the people on the forum agree with you) that smoking next to the dance-floor is not good.
I don't even particularly enjoy dancing with someone who has just come back from being outside for a quick cigarette.

I'm lucky to be dancing in Scotland where there is no smoking allowed next to the dancefloor but most of the venues I've visited down South have appeared to have had the same policy, or the smokers have decided to do so themselves.
The smokers I know, who dance, would never dream of lighting up where they and their friends are sitting.

[Dan Hudson]

I'm sure that it would be far easier to persuade Ceroc HQ that they should make it policy to ban smoking across the organisation if people were to actively promote the advantages of the non-smoking venue, rather than forcing them and individual franchisees to dig their heels in because they feel under attack. I agree Em and as such I have emailed all my fellow franchisees and asked to raise this at our next meeting with a view to banning smoking in ALL Ceroc venues countrywide...

[Andy McGregor]

I thought I'd respond to the above without using quotes.

On the subject of starting a petition - that's the function this thread is performing. Except it's more balanced than a petition against something because it also gives people holding the opposing view a chance to vote.

It would be lovely if a positive approach worked. However, the experience from the political arena is that it's negative campaigning that works best. Everyone says 'why don't you politicians stop knocking each other' but it's the most effective negative campaigners that win elections - I wish it wasn't so but its a fact of life:tears:

I am trying to communicate the positive advantages of a smoke-free dance hall on this thread. But to some organisers there is a massive disadvantage, possibly because they would have to go outside for a fag!

I do agree with Emma, as a father of 3 I've found that a positive approach works best with children:D

Is there anyone out there that still thinks that my saying "it dawned on me that ALL of the classes I've been to which STILL allow smoking next to the dance floor are Ceroc classes" means that I've said ALL Ceroc classes allow smoking? That IS NOT the meaning of the sentence. The subject is classes I'd visited which allow smoking and the comment about them is that they are all Ceroc classes. I don't think it says that ALL Ceroc classes allow smoking - semantics probably.

I agree with Sheena that it looks like I'm singling out Ceroc Kent. That was not my intention and I apologise if it looks that way. I was responding to a particular post from a member of Ceroc Kent. So they were the only people I was talking about at the time. I should have been more general and said that I wouldn't put a penny into the pocket of ANY organiser or franchisee that has so little regard for the health of their customers - sorry, and thanks for pointing out my mistake :cheers:

On a more general note, this thread IS a letter to Ceroc HQ as suggested by Emma. You can be sure that someone there reads every thread on this Forum. And this letter is not just from some short, stroppy cross-dresser, it also has contributions from reasonable sounding people like Emma, Funky Si, Sheena, Aleks, Stewart38, Tazmanian Devil, Azande, etc, etc - and so far I don't think anyone has defended their right to smoke next to a busy dance floor. I think everyone has spoken against it.

BUT if we let the subject drop Ceroc HQ might think the problem has gone away and do nothing about it. So I need to incite controversy to keep this thread alive and in the full view of people who can do something about it - so somtimes I must put things more strongly than I would normally because I need people to react. There are two groups of people who have the power to create change, us the punters and them the organisers. "Us", if we stayed away from the smoky venues we wouldn't be putting our health at risk and "them" the organisers who could simply ban smoking, but choose not to for some, unfathomable, reason. And, of course, if the 'us' stayed away the 'them' would change their mind overnight...

I've had a great deal of PM support for this thread and it's message. I was hoping that it would have achieved it's objective by now and I could have gone back to contributing to the frivilous threads which suit me better. I promise to shut up if someone else would like to start a new thread that will do the job. Until that time, I'm asking everyone who's contributed to this thread to continue to do so until 'smoking and dancing don't mix':hug:

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Dan Hudson
I agree Em and as such I have emailed all my fellow franchisees and asked to raise this at our next meeting with a view to banning smoking in ALL Ceroc venues countrywide...

This is great news and I know from PM exchanges with Dan that this development has only come about as a result of this thread.

What Dan needs to support his proposal is to know that people will not desert Ceroc venues if smoking is banned. And that some people will start going to smoking Ceroc venues if smoking is banned in them. Put me down for that one please - see you in Rochester, Horsham, etc - the non-smoking venues of the future...

So any support you can offer Dan, either on this thread or via PM will help his cause.

Let's keep it up guys, we're on the home straght but it's no time to relax:wink:

[Will]

Whilst I have enjoyed winding Mr McGregor up about his passion on the issue of smoking at Ceroc venues by informing him that I've seen DavidB smoking spliffs at Hipsters, I do fully support the campaign to ban smoking from the dance floor, and congratulate all others who have got involved.

[Andy McGregor]

I met Virginia the Ceroc Kent Franchisee at Camber this weekend. As I expected she seemed really nice and isn't even slightly scary:hug: And she is, of course, a brilliant dancer and great fun too.

We briefly mentioned the smoking to each other but I didn't push the point as it wasn't really the right time. Still, it was nice to meet up:waycool:

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Will
by informing him that I've seen DavidB smoking spliffs at Hipsters I meant to ask you about that stuff you sold me. It suddenly made me say stupid things (eg "We have three options - we can dance, or we can sit down"), made me paranoid that someone called Alex Ferguson was after me, and then let all my defences down. I assume it is the official Man City "Kevin Keegan Specials" that you are dealing now?

[Chris]

Originally posted by DavidB
I meant to ask you about that stuff you sold me. It suddenly made me say stupid things (eg "We have three options - we can dance, or we can sit down"), made me paranoid that someone called Alex Ferguson was after me, and then let all my defences down. I assume it is the official Man City "Kevin Keegan Specials" that you are dealing now?

ROFL! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Will]

Originally posted by Chris
ROFL! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Please don't encourage him Chris, I have to listen to his inane wittle on football every week in person at Hipsters.

Last week he wanted Nigel to cancel so that he could have 30mins on stage with the microphone telling everyone why Leeds Utd are actually in better financial shape than Chelski right now. :confused:

[Neil]

Originally posted by Will
by informing him that I've seen DavidB smoking spliffs at Hipsters Ahhh, so that's what they mean by "jive joint"...

[Dance Demon]

Saw an anti smoking ad on TV tonight, which showed children playing and laughing, and as they laughed, smoke was coming out of their noses and mouths. message was that if you smoke around your children, then they effectively are smoking too and are succeptible to all the diseases that are associated with it......quite a strong image and fairly brought home the effects of passive smoking...not just by kids:wink:

[JamesGeary]

Why do so many people care about this thread?

I've never noticed anyone smoking at ceroc/jive venues anywhere. I think the total passive smoking you would get from a year of jive/ceroc would be less than a single night at any pub.

It's not like they're smoking a cigarette while they're dancing with me. Now that would just be rude!!

[Will]

Originally posted by Neil
Ahhh, so that's what they mean by "jive joint"...

Like it! :rofl:

[Tazmanian Devil]

Originally posted by JamesGeary
Why do so many people care about this thread?

I've never noticed anyone smoking at ceroc/jive venues anywhere. I think the total passive smoking you would get from a year of jive/ceroc would be less than a single night at any pub.

It's not like they're smoking a cigarette while they're dancing with me. Now that would just be rude!!

Not every one cares about this thread it's just certain people are trying to prove a point. :rolleyes: The thread did nearly reach the bottom of the list at one point but then some members started talking about who was going to camber on here:confused: so back up to the top it was!!

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Tazmanian Devil
Not every one cares about this thread it's just certain people are trying to prove a point. :rolleyes:

What point are 'certain people' trying to prove? Was it some irrelevant point or was it that your health is at risk if you breathe tobacco smoke? Sounds like a point that could save your life so why the rolleyes?


Originally posted by Tazmanian Devil
The thread did nearly reach the bottom of the list at one point but then some members started talking about who was going to camber on here:confused: so back up to the top it was!!

Don't remember when members started talking about who was going to Camber on THIS thread. Remind me:devil:

What I would remind you is that this is a serious thread. People are dying from the effects of passive smoking. This is a proven fact. There are acute side-effects to passive smoking like the asthma attacks the Tramp sometimes has - which can KILL. And there are the chronic affects of passive smoking which also can kill. So why allow smoking next to the dance floor? So far nobody has justified this and I don't think they will.

The problem is that fpr some people the argument is getting a bit boring and repetitive...

If you're not interested then unsubscribe from this thread rather than keep repeating that you're not interested. I, for one, am interested in my own health and I'm interested in the health of my fellow dancers:waycool:

[JamesGeary]

Next Tuesday I am going to pretend I am a Baleen whale scouring the sea for plankton.

I am going to open my mouth dash up and down Hipsters for 15 minutes in an attempt to accumulate as much smoke as I can.

I will then hold my breath for 5 minutes and see if I feel any ill effects.


:D

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by JamesGeary
Next Tuesday I am going to pretend I am a Baleen whale scouring the sea for plankton.

I am going to open my mouth dash up and down Hipsters for 15 minutes in an attempt to accumulate as much smoke as I can.

I will then hold my breath for 5 minutes and see if I feel any ill effects.


:D

Sounds to me like you've aready done it - were you a bit near to DavidB smoking the joint reported by Will:devil:


p.s. For members of the Drug Squad, it was a virtual joint.:waycool: Apart from one incident reported by Sheepman, Hipsters is a smoke free zone - unless you count the smoke generated by rapidly spinning feet...

p.p.s. For members of Greenpeace, it was also a virtural whale :wink:

[Tazmanian Devil]

Originally posted by JamesGeary
Next Tuesday I am going to pretend I am a Baleen whale scouring the sea for plankton.

I am going to open my mouth dash up and down Hipsters for 15 minutes in an attempt to accumulate as much smoke as I can.

I will then hold my breath for 5 minutes and see if I feel any ill effects.:D

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[stewart38]

Have to agree with James

I have never notice a problem with smoking/smoke at any ceroc venue over the last 10yrs

One night at Bingo you will get a lot more passive smoke in 3hrs then 10 yrs at ceroc

I think the biggest killer would be the stress of avoiding 'passive smoke'

Was it in a woody Allen film that they found out in 2050 that it wasn't smoking that killed you but the raising of the right arm ? All left handed smokers lived long lifes :really:


:sick:

[Chris]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
If you're not interested then unsubscribe from this thread rather than keep repeating that you're not interested. I, for one, am interested in my own health and I'm interested in the health of my fellow dancers:waycool:

I'm interested to see how far you go Andy before you make me want to have a cigarette out of sheer bloodymindedness
:wink: :wink: :wink:

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Chris
I'm interested to see how far you go Andy before you make me want to have a cigarette out of sheer bloodymindedness
:wink: :wink: :wink:

Here goes:wink:

Chris, you feel free to have a cigarette. This thread is not about the dangers of smoking. That's been done in millions of places on the net already. But smoking is legal, you'd be mad to do it in the face of all of the evidence but it's your free choice if you want to do it.

This thread is 'Smoking and Dancing don't Mix'. And so far nobody has come up with any valid reason why smokers should be allowed to smoke next to the dance floor - except for the financial ones for the person running the night.

Smoking yet?:devil:

[Will]

Originally posted by JamesGeary
Next Tuesday I am going to pretend I am a Baleen whale scouring the sea for plankton.

I am going to open my mouth dash up and down Hipsters for 15 minutes in an attempt to accumulate as much smoke as I can.

I will then hold my breath for 5 minutes and see if I feel any ill effects.


:D

Way to go James, using this thread to pretend you are conducting an experiment about smoke inhilation at Hipsters when you move up and down the room with your jaw wide open, when in truth you are really going up and down the dance floor letching at all the women!

Nice try! :wink:

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Will
Way to go James, using this thread to pretend you are conducting an experiment about smoke inhilation at Hipsters when you move up and down the room with your jaw wide open, when in truth you are really going up and down the dance floor letching at all the women!

Nice try! :wink:


There's women at Hipsters:confused: :what:

[Will]

Originally posted by JamesGeary ?
I fully admit that Will sprung me about the passive smoking / letching scam. I further admit that the All Blacks Rugby team are a bunch of losers, and that the closest I ever get to proper Salsa is on a fajitas...

I'd just like to agree with all of this!

[plankton]

Originally posted by JamesGeary
Next Tuesday I am going to pretend I am a Baleen whale scouring the sea for plankton.

I am going to open my mouth dash up and down Hipsters for 15 minutes in an attempt to accumulate as much smoke as I can.

I will then hold my breath for 5 minutes and see if I feel any ill effects.


:D

now just leave plankton out of it.... I don't smoke :innocent: unless set on fire and I thought I was safe from Baleen whales at Hipsters :D you will put me off trying to Lindy over Andy M's feet.

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by plankton
now just leave plankton out of it.... I don't smoke :innocent: unless set on fire and I thought I was safe from Baleen whales at Hipsters :D you will put me off trying to Lindy over Andy M's feet.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I was laughing as soon as I saw it was plankton who'd posted on this thread - this has made my day. Thank you Plankton, you can Lindy over my feet any time you like:hug:

[Andy McGregor]

Is now a good time to resurrect this thread?

Anyone giving up smoking?

Or at least giving up smoking in the same room as people dancing?

Or even giving up dancing in venues that allow people to smoke next to dancing?

[fruitcake]

Yes Andy, this is a good time to resurrect this thread again, even if only to put my tuppenceworth in.Having been out three times this week(ooh!) and having to come home each night and consider getting my jackets dry cleaned because of the smell of smoke-yuk.
I also, on one occasion at Peterculter,in late summer, found myself coughing and gasping,wwith my lungs stinging,eyes watering (really mucks up the mascara) as I was dancing near the end where the smokers were sitting, though thankfully this has supposedly been stopped, people still stand inside the door, oblivious to the fact that their smoke drifts in to the hall, I think it is disgraceful that people like Steve have to put up with it or miss out. I am not antismoking at all, have close family who smoke, but it takes away my choice and freedom to breath fresh air, The smoker CHOOSES to breathe in contaminated air but forces it on others, when in public places. However, I am sure this has all been said before I know, I do feel it is up to the venue organisers to make a stand- they shouldnt worry about being unpopular,as the smokers can still smoke-outside, the punters will be happier and more likely to come back, and SO many places, including my work, have no smoking policies.
Fruitcake

[Martin]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Is now a good time to resurrect this thread?

Anyone giving up smoking?

Or at least giving up smoking in the same room as people dancing?

Or even giving up dancing in venues that allow people to smoke next to dancing?

Tried smoking and dancing, I would say it does not mix, restricts your moves and you have to be real careful:sorry

I am giving up smoking, instead of banning "minorities have rights too" can anyone offer "real life, it happened to me" scenarios of what worked, only from those who are still 100% "smoke free" - oh and no patches please, still a drug.

Marty (cold turkey and craving)

[fruitcake]

You have my sympathy and moral support, my brother went cold turkey also,managed to give up 40 a day,but it has taken him many attempts, but at last he has succeeded, my sister gave up for 3 years, then thought she would have 1 fag at a work night out and has started again-what an antismoker she was whenshe stopped too.
Good luck mate!

[Martin]

Originally posted by fruitcake
You have my sympathy and moral support, my brother went cold turkey also,managed to give up 40 a day,but it has taken him many attempts, but at last he has succeeded, my sister gave up for 3 years, then thought she would have 1 fag at a work night out and has started again-what an antismoker she was whenshe stopped too.
Good luck mate!

It is the "many attempts" and the "only 1 fag at a work do" that puts me off - I also really HATE those "because I don't do it anymore I am going to preach scenarios".

Why do people do that?

It is a bit like those evangalist who insist on sharing thier views and have no interest in hearing yours...:blush: :sick:

I wonder Andy, did you ever smoke? or is it a natual anti- smoke view?

[Dan Hudson]

My dad has just given up smoking. he had smoked for the best part of 40 years!!

Hypnotism was the only thing that worked for him.. he hasn't had or even wanted a cigarette for over 6 months!!

He was a total sceptic about the hypnotism before he went and has now recommended it to six frieneds.All of whom have now quit!!

There is hope for you all addicts out there!!

Good luck :cheers:

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Martin
I wonder Andy, did you ever smoke? or is it a natual anti- smoke view?

No, I've never smoked. I've never liked the smell. At the time when some of my friends were starting there wasn't the evidence that smoking kills so there was no real reason not to on health grounds. I just didn't fancy it - a bit like someone might not be interested in trying whisky because they think it smells bad. Also, at that time I didn't have any money so I couldn't buy cigarettes:tears:

My anti-smoking view is nothing I've naturally come to either. It's based on hard evidence - and this is something I wish wasn't true. I wish that something my friends and family were choosing to do wasn't killing them - but it is and it really upsets me that I can't get them to stop killing themselves:tears:

The hard evidence is that one in four smokers will die in middle age due to smoking and lose about 25+ years from their life expectancy. On the plus side, half of all smokers will not have their life shortened that much - and the hope that people will fall into that half must be one of the things that keeps them smoking.

One bit of good news is that Nina Daines tells me she's going to have hypnosis and give up:waycool:

Just a few more million to go...

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Nina Daines tells me she's going to have hypnosis and give up Does this mean we all have to be on "Nina watch" and keep her away from the temptations of JB?

Greg

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Sheepman
... the temptations of JB?

Greg

The mind boggles:wink:

[Jon L]

Like Andy I have never smoked.

I have asthma which needs medication so smoking would make me really ill.

I only really get annoyed when I see blokes play active sports (which I find difficult even with the gymn), then go into the bar and light up :mad:

Good to hear Nina is thinking of quitting.

[fruitcake]

Well guys, as a nurse I have seen some pretty horendous smoking related diseases, and all that goes with it (won't go into that here)blah blah, but the smokers have heard it all before, and mostly they want to stop but have just been unable to,but lecturing and nagging doesn't help,support from your friends does, my sister was caught out by "a friend" offering her a cigarette and she had it in her hands before she thought what she was doing,if her "friends" had been real friends they wouldnt have offered her one, but they missed smokingwith her outside the front door at work!

[Martin]

Originally posted by fruitcake
Well guys, as a nurse I have seen some pretty horendous smoking related diseases, and all that goes with it (won't go into that here)blah blah, but the smokers have heard it all before, and mostly they want to stop but have just been unable to,but lecturing and nagging doesn't help,support from your friends does, my sister was caught out by "a friend" offering her a cigarette and she had it in her hands before she thought what she was doing,if her "friends" had been real friends they wouldnt have offered her one, but they missed smokingwith her outside the front door at work!

The long term stuff does not work on most. A bit like telling a 17 year old to start up a private pension and start investing today for their retirement. Some will listen, some will say “great idea” and do nothing, some simply will not see the point of doing it now, as it is so far off. Some may take advice, obviously not too many do as most of my friends still work in the rat race.

I did see the point on the financial long terms at a very early age, which is why I am now retired, never did see the health thing, always been very healthy.

Well trouble is now to keep going, make a coffee (where’s that cig), spark up computer (where’s that cig), dream about that 24 hour shop just round the corner that has smokes (where’s that cig).
OK go and do something else, sort out kitchen cupboard, all done now… (where’s that cig).

[Martin]

Originally posted by Jon L


I only really get annoyed when I see blokes play active sports (which I find difficult even with the gymn), then go into the bar and light up :mad:



Hey you would have loved watching me go light up 10 minutes before I am on in a team comp or any show, which normally include lifts and high energy stuff.:sad:

Finishing the routine then going for a beer and a cig...:really: :really:

The point is that some people can smoke and do high energy activities, some can, some can't.
Most ballet dancers I meet from the Sydney Dance Company smoke.

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by fruitcake
snip

but the smokers have heard it all before, and mostly they want to stop but have just been unable to, but lecturing and nagging doesn't help,..

I think that for most current smokers you are right. These that could be pursuaded by lecturing and nagging have already given up smoking. But I do not belive that current smokers are mostly failed quitters - they just don't have enough desire to quit yet. Many of those smokers that are left have somehow developed a selective deafness regarding their habit. They don't hear the arguments that they should give up and they don't hear people asking them not to smoke within smelling distance. The problem this selective deafness causes it that they also turn off when they're asked not to smoke next to non-smokers - or even worse, they sometimes get agressive - as some have on this thread and some do when asked not to smoke in a non-smoking area. Some smokers just can't see what the problem for us non-smokers is:sick:

Although there are many considerate smokers there's still a minority that think they should be allowed to put other people's health at risk and smoke in company. And, in my opinion, the inconsiderate smokers that cause passive smoking don't need nagging, they need legislation and enforcement.


Originally posted by fruitcake
my sister was caught out by "a friend" offering her a cigarette and she had it in her hands before she thought what she was doing,if her "friends" had been real friends they wouldnt have offered her one, but they missed smoking with her outside the front door at work!

This is even worse than smokers causing passive smoking. Your sister's "friend", sounds like a drug dealer trying to get another victim hooked:confused:


So we are left with the question, should we continue to try to get our friends and family to give up smoking? Or should we become silent observers to their self-destruction? And the answer is, if we truly love them, we have no choice.

All we need to do now is work out how. Anyone got any ideas?

[Dotse]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
My anti-smoking view is nothing I've naturally come to either. It's based on hard evidence -

One of the difficulties with smokers is that they don't tend to smoke for rational reasons, so logic and rationalisation rarely helps........ maybe thats why hynosis often works for the right people...even smokers will agree that if you want to give up smoking bad enough then nothing in this world will stop you.(apart from physical restraint and having cogarettes forced fed down your throat...a type of passive smoking that may be a little less well accepted ....??)

You simply need to get in your gut the desire to assert your will...., hypnosis is just a tool to motivate your 'will' or 'wont power'...you simply use the part of your brain that will get you to stop & then make sure you also use the part that is stronger than the part that wants to start again......or something like that ....sounds like im rationalising..mmmmmm

Cheers for now

Dotse

[Sheepman]

The human psyche isn't designed to be able to give up something enjoyable, even if you know it is harming you. An example:-

This guy resolved to get up at 5:30 each morning, to get on with all those jobs that needed doing (no it isn't me!) He set the alarm, but each morning he thought "it so warm and snug in here, I'll just switch it off and snooze for 5 minutes" in 5 minutes he was fast asleep again and nothing got done.
So after a few weeks of this he tried another tack, he put another alarm in his children's room, to go off at 5:35, now when the first alarm went off, he had to get up and go and turn the other one off. If he didn't, then the children would be woken & upset, his wife livid, etc.

So how can this example be applied to smoking? It obviously isn't enough that smokers are upsetting those around them, in particular their nearest and dearest. I was disturbed to discover while staying with my brother at Christmas that my sister-in-law has started again, less than a year after being close to death, and having half a lung removed.

Greg

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Sheepman
I was disturbed to discover while staying with my brother at Christmas that my sister-in-law has started again, less than a year after being close to death, and having half a lung removed.

Greg

What can you say to persuade her to quit that has more impact than the message she got by having to have half a lung removed? My guess is nothing.

My mother is the same. Some time ago she was coughing up spots of blood, her GP referred her to a Chest Physician who told her to go away and give up smoking as it could be causing the problem. She gave up smoking for a few weeks, the problem went away, she saw the specialist who said her chest was OK. So she started smoking again, guess what happened? She's still smoking and if we nag her about it she just says she's given up and carries on smoking in secret - and we go along with the pretence even though we can all smell it:sick:

Does smoking sap your willpower and turn you into a nicotine slave without a mind of your own? Some smokers are getting a clear message that it's killing them. How do they continue to ignore it?

But, to get back on thread. Us dancers should not have to breathe other people's cigarette smoke whilst on the dance floor. There are plenty of good venues with nice clean (if very hot) air for us to breathe whilst dancing. If people stayed away it would only take a few weeks before the venue owner got the message and banned smoking.

[Lynn]

I’m not against smokers, but I don’t like smoke. Smokers have a choice to smoke or not and I have the choice to not go to places where people smoke. Eg in restaurants there are smoking and non-smoking sections and I can choose to go to a different restaurant if there are no non-smoking tables free (and I have done). If someone starts smoking in the bus queue I have the choice to leave the queue (and I have done that as well). Aside from the health risks (which are many) I really hate the smell and the fact that it gets in my hair and clothes just by being in the same room. (Other people may like or not mind the smell but I think people who smoke may become somewhat desensitised to it and not realise how unpleasant it can be to non-smokers.)

However when it comes to dancing I really don’t think smoking near the dance floor (which is what this thread is about) gives any choice to non-smokers other than to simply not go. There are limited dance venues here and there are some I don’t go to because of smoke and some I have tried staying for a while and left again. I think it is up to organisers to have a smoke free area (as far as possible) at dance venues in the same way that restaurants have and that this should be the area immediately round the dance floor. People can choose whether they want to smoke or not, why do they then have to smoke beside where other people are dancing, who then don't have the choice not to breathe it in, except to go home?

I agree with the comments that this will not be such an issue in years to come, eventually smoking will be regarded as a health hazard and it will be considered responsible action to ban it completely from all public venues. And those who smoke near or beside those who don’t, are hastening that time.

I'm not trying to offend smokers but this is a topic that seriously affects my choice of dancing venues and is something that I feel quite strongly about.

[Dotse]

Originally posted by Sheepman
The human psyche isn't designed to be able to give up something enjoyable, even if you know it is harming you. An example:-

This guy resolved to get up at 5:30 each morning, to get on with all those jobs that needed doing (no it isn't me!) He set the alarm, but each morning he thought "it so warm and snug in here, I'll just switch it off and snooze for 5 minutes" in 5 minutes he was fast asleep again and nothing got done.
So after a few weeks of this he tried another tack, he put another alarm in his children's room, to go off at 5:35, now when the first alarm went off, he had to get up and go and turn the other one off. If he didn't, then the children would be woken & upset, his wife livid, etc.

So how can this example be applied to smoking? It obviously isn't enough that smokers are upsetting those around them, in particular their nearest and dearest. I was disturbed to discover while staying with my brother at Christmas that my sister-in-law has started again, less than a year after being close to death, and having half a lung removed.

Greg

This guy attached a certain amount of pain to getting up at that time and doing the jobs. The second alarm got him up because he attached more pain to the kids/wife being upset. Although he could, after turning off the second alarm, simply have gone back to bed .....couldn't he?

Anyway, if he stayed awake and did the jobs then the pain of not having the jobs done finally outweighed the pleasure of being snug and drifting into slumberland...........At what point does the pain of those around us and our own future pain outweigh the pleasure of smoking?

This is too logical for smokers, they don't think rationally......they wouldn't do it if they did........

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Lynn
I'm not trying to offend smokers but this is a topic that seriously affects my choice of dancing venues and is something that I feel quite strongly about.

Lynn, I'm so glad you've posted this:hug:

People have given me a very hard time on this thread because of the stand I'm taking. Sometimes I've even started to question the sense of my own argument because it's stirred up so much negative comment from smokers who are asserting their "right" to smoke where they like. So it is very heartening when someone actually completely agrees with me about smoking in dance venues:D

Thank you:waycool:

[Lynn]

Yes, I definitely agree that 'smoking and dancing don't mix', certainly not in close proximity. I don't like having my choice of venues restricted or my evening cut short because of some other people's lack of consideration. And I'm not the only one who has left a venue even though I had been enjoying the dancing, simply because it had become too smoky.

Of course many smokers are considerate and will go outside or to another part of the room from where people are dancing when they want to smoke. Maybe we should get some of those smokers involved in coming up with 'smoking guidelines' for dance venues? We have 'dancing etiquette', could we have a 'smoking at dance venues etiquette'? (Though personally I prefer a completely smoke free environment but I'm trying to be fair to everyone. :grin: )

[Jooles]

I am not usually too bothered by smoking at the venues I go to, but I was dancing last night and watched a man finish dancing at the end of a track and light a ciggi while still on the dance floor. Now I did think that was inconsiderate. Sitting having a chat and a smoke is one thing, but lighting up on the dance floor, well that's a bit different.

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Julie Griffiths
but I was dancing last night and watched a man finish dancing at the end of a track and light a ciggi while still on the dance floor.
Would you be prepared to name the venue?

Chris

[Jooles]

It was at Ashtons......

.

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Julie Griffiths
It was at Ashtons......

Thanks. I did wonder... Ashtons is well named :D

It's one of the few places I go where I've been troubled by smoke, since it's allowed right next to the dance floor.

Chris

[foxylady]

Originally posted by ChrisA
Thanks. I did wonder... Ashtons is well named :D

It's one of the few places I go where I've been troubled by smoke, since it's allowed right next to the dance floor.

Chris

Was at Ashtons last night (and had a fab time as I said elsewhere), but I really noticed the smoke. I came out feeling like I had been smoking, and rather hoarse, and my clothes reeked of smoke...

It was the only thing that marred the evening...

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by foxylady
Was at Ashtons last night (and had a fab time as I said elsewhere), but I really noticed the smoke. I came out feeling like I had been smoking, and rather hoarse, and my clothes reeked of smoke...

:sick: :sick: :sick: :what: :tears:

Next time I see Richard or Linda I'll have a word... see if they have a view. They may be receptive - maybe no one's complained yet.

Your experience sounds much worse than the occasions I've been there, though. I wonder if there's something about the other (usual) room that means the smoke gets vented away from the dance floor more effectively.

Chris

[Andy McGregor]

Today I sent this email to the link on the Ceroc London website. Let's hope they change their policy:D

There has recently been some comment about the smoking at Ashtons on the Scottish Ceroc Forum. Basically, people have commented that the smoky atmosphere mars what is otherwise a fantastic night out.

The thread on the Scottish Forum contains a poll that shows that a very large majority of dancers do not want to breathe smoke while they are dancing. Also, this thread has been replied to over 380 times and has been viewed over 7,200 times so this issue is obviously something which dancers are interested in.

As, for the sake of my health, I will not dance in a smoky atmosphere I will not be coming to Ashtons and feel like I'm missing out on a good night. I was wondering if you were planning to change your smoking policy so I can visit. Also, to save me making a wasted trip to any of your other venues, I would be grateful if you could reply telling me which of them allow smoking and which do not.

Please do not consider that I am mischief making. I am a keen dancer and travel about 300 miles a week to go dancing, but I also have a choice and I choose not to put my health at risk by inhaling second-hand smoke.

Andy McGregor

p.s. If you would like to read the thread which mentions Ashtons being smoky the link is below.
http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1344&perpage=10&pagenumber=39

p.p.s. I will paste this email into the above thread. You can either reply directly to me or post your reply on the thread for me to read along with all the other people who are interested in dancing in a smoke free venue.

[DangerousCurves]

Originally posted by foxylady
Was at Ashtons last night (and had a fab time as I said elsewhere), but I really noticed the smoke. I came out feeling like I had been smoking, and rather hoarse, and my clothes reeked of smoke...

It was the only thing that marred the evening...

Have to agree. One asthmatic friend in my group experienced breathing problems and we left early. We later wondered if the smoke had contributed - we normally dance at smoke free venues and she has no problems.

I had a really great nights dancing and the people were very very friendly - just a shame it was so smoky.

[Lory]

I've had a serious aversion to smoking ever since I was 14, tried it for the first time and got caught, my Dad took a harsh line, he promptly brought me a pack of 20, and made me sit in the smallest room in the house and said he didn't want to see me till the packet was empty, believe me it works! NEVER AGAIN!!!:sick: :sick: :sick:

I'm going to say something on a positive note now, having just come back from holiday and realised how lucky we are in this country, compared to the rest of the world. In the resort where I stayed, most people came from Canada, Spain, France, Italy and Germany, it seemed to me the majority of them smoked.:tears:

They seem to smoke all the time, at the breakfast table, round the pool, on the beach AND EVEN IN THE POOL at the swim up bar!

There were 11 of us and none of us smoke, someone commented that they knew we were English for this reason! :innocent: I wasn't too sure it was a compliment but I felt very proud about it!:D :grin:

So take heart, were on the right road!:cheers:

[Graham W]

..mm surely dance venues should set a lead in banning smoking from the dance hall - maybe use the bar space or go outside...
jeepers dancing is healthy..

also danger of people stubbing out cigs on dancers (Ive seen this in clubs) accidently...

G

PS - sorry Haz :-)

[Andy McGregor]

Here is the reply I received to my email regarding Ashtons. This email was sent in good faith so for now I will make no comment - which will surprise a few people:wink:

Andy,

Thanks for your email.

As a non-smoker and somebody who particularly dislikes this disgusting habit I too would not want to dance in a smoke-filled room.

I have previously thought about introducing a smoking ban at various London venues, but I don't believe it to be a problem other than say at Ashtons. Even there where I dance regularly I accept some people do smoke but given the size of the venue and the very small minority of people that do smoke I cannot ever
recall actually noticing the smoke. In any event the reality is the venue have refused my introducing a smoking ban on the two occasions I asked whether one could be introduced. And before you say can't you put pressure on the venue please bear in mind that although we attract very good numbers the average spend at the bar is less than £2 per head relative to £12.50 per head for their own clientele I am therefore not coming from a position of strength in making any demands.

On Wednesday nights, Linda the teacher has encouraged smokers to smoke in the bar with good effect, however I accept at the recent Black & White ball which was very busy more people might have been smoking on the area surrounding the dance floor. I was at the event from beginning to end and danced all night and my clothes certainly didn't smell, nonetheless I have spoken with Linda and we will both be monitoring the situation to see whether there is anything else we can do to try and lessen the problem.

With regard to your enquiry about a non-smoking venue in London, I suggest you try the Casbah which is a non-smoking venue.

Please feel free to post this email on the Forum.

Regards,

Mike Ellard

[Martin]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Here is the reply I received to my email regarding Ashtons. This email was sent in good faith so for now I will make no comment - which will surprise a few people:wink:

Andy,

Thanks for your email.

As a non-smoker and somebody who particularly dislikes this disgusting habit I too would not want to dance in a smoke-filled room.

I have previously thought about introducing a smoking ban at various London venues, but I don't believe it to be a problem other than say at Ashtons. Even there where I dance regularly I accept some people do smoke but given the size of the venue and the very small minority of people that do smoke I cannot ever
recall actually noticing the smoke. In any event the reality is the venue have refused my introducing a smoking ban on the two occasions I asked whether one could be introduced. And before you say can't you put pressure on the venue please bear in mind that although we attract very good numbers the average spend at the bar is less than £2 per head relative to £12.50 per head for their own clientele I am therefore not coming from a position of strength in making any demands.

On Wednesday nights, Linda the teacher has encouraged smokers to smoke in the bar with good effect, however I accept at the recent Black & White ball which was very busy more people might have been smoking on the area surrounding the dance floor. I was at the event from beginning to end and danced all night and my clothes certainly didn't smell, nonetheless I have spoken with Linda and we will both be monitoring the situation to see whether there is anything else we can do to try and lessen the problem.

With regard to your enquiry about a non-smoking venue in London, I suggest you try the Casbah which is a non-smoking venue.

Please feel free to post this email on the Forum.

Regards,

Mike Ellard

Well I will comment...:D

For one Andy, I think it is a considered and considerate reply with a promise to monitor the situation. Mike has made some good points as to where he is at.

It is hard to get venues when the bar take is low.

One positive is it has increased awareness.

Martin

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Martin
Well I will comment...:D

For one Andy, I think it is a considered and considerate reply with a promise to monitor the situation. Mike has made some good points as to where he is at.

It is hard to get venues when the bar take is low.

One positive is it has increased awareness.

Martin

Thanks Martin.

The reason I didn' comment is that I feel the same as you do, I just thought someone else might say it - well done Mr Ellard!

I think this reply from Ceroc London is positive because it shows that they're thinking about smoking and their customers health in some parts of Ceroc.

However, there is still no similar rational reason to continue to allow smoking next to the dance floor at other venues like Horsham, Bromley or Rochester where the franchisee rents a hall...

[Chris]

This thread has been quiet for over a month. Has everyone given up smoking? Are we now complacent? Has Andy bought shares in the tobacco industry?

These and lots of other questions fail to be answered here (http://www.journaloftheoretics.com/Editorials/Vol-1/e1-4.htm) but they may make addicts feel a bit less doomed, despairing and guilt-ridden.

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Chris
This thread has been quiet for over a month. Has everyone given up smoking? Are we now complacent?

Hardly anyone's given up smoking so we've no room to be complacent. On the other hand, if we nag people too much they will carry on smoking just to spite us...


Originally posted by Chris
Has Andy bought shares in the tobacco industry?


No, I've been into petrochemicals recently - they do leave a nasty after-taste though:tears:


Originally posted by Chris
These and lots of other questions fail to be answered here (http://www.journaloftheoretics.com/Editorials/Vol-1/e1-4.htm) but they may make addicts feel a bit less doomed, despairing and guilt-ridden.

The review given by the link only considers lung cancer. There are many other smoking related diseases which will kill you. And maybe they kill some people quicker than lung cancer.

To say that the risk of smoking is only lung cancer is to give people false hope. The fact is that 1 in 4 smokers will die in middle age losing 20-30 years of life expectancy due to their habit - but it might not be lung cancer that kills them. Why take that risk?:confused:

[Chris]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
To say that the risk of smoking is only lung cancer is to give people false hope. The fact is that 1 in 4 smokers will die in middle age losing 20-30 years of life expectancy due to their habit - but it might not be lung cancer that kills them. Why take that risk?:confused:
I think it's stressing that smoking seriously accelerates a predisposition to lung cancer.

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Chris
I think it's stressing that smoking seriously accelerates a predisposition to lung cancer.

I think Chris and I are singing from the same songsheet. Chris is absolutely right.

The point I'm making is that if people thought that lung cancer was the only risk of smoking they might believe that the health risks had been exaggerated by Government Health Warnings.

For anyone who hasn't got the message,

SMOKING KILLS

:flower: :flower: :flower:

[fruitcake]

Originally posted by Chris
I think it's stressing that smoking seriously accelerates a predisposition to lung cancer.

Well smoking actually accelerates a predispositon to ALL cancers, and other medical conditions,not to mention the potential acceleration of predispositions in foetuses, as there may also be pregnant ladies at the dancing.I'm not talking about low birth weight etc, I'm talking about genetic changes.

I think most of us think either, god ist smoky and leave, or its not that bad, and its not til we get in the car and reek of smoke that we realise how bad the smoking actually was. Once again on Tuesday, where the ceroc is supposedly a non-smoking venue, i smelt of smoke when I left.
Probably sitting too near the bar-which has recently returned to being the seats for smokers, despite requests a few weeks ago, that smokers go outside.
Poooh!

[Gadget]

The venue owners complained about the butts littering outside and people cloging up the entrance the vestibule - threatened with not allowing Ceroc to continue to use the venue if it continues; hence an area was dedicated to smokers.

Just need to be on the dance floor more :wink:

(Why does it have to be done? why it is near the bar so everyone has to walk past it? why is the area next to the entrance/exit? why is it so close to the dance floor? Can't smokers polute the 'public' bar area instead?... need to ask Lisa tonight.)

[jivecat]

Many thanks to those thoughtful and considerate dancers at the Kettering tea dance on Sunday who chose to go outside and smoke in the freezing cold rather than smoke next to the dance floor, even though others were doing just that.

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Gadget
(Why does it have to be done? why it is near the bar so everyone has to walk past it? why is the area next to the entrance/exit? why is it so close to the dance floor? Can't smokers polute the 'public' bar area instead?... need to ask Lisa tonight.) I did talk to Franck about asking the smokers to go down in the corner, by the stage, on the opposite side of the hall from the little room (and only after the classes have finished). He agreed at the time. Have to see if that's still going to happen....

Steve

[Gadget]

Originally posted by TheTramp
I did talk to Franck about asking the smokers to go down in the corner, by the stage, on the opposite side of the hall from the little room (and only after the classes have finished). He agreed at the time. Have to see if that's still going to happen...

I see where you're coming from; it's the least populated area of the venue, but...
- If it's only after classes, where do they smoke before hand?
- people would get smokey while they queue for rotations (lingering smoke from start/freestyle)
- it is still too close to the dance floor
- air flow and openings in the hall would encourage smoke to drift accross the floor (this area is the furthest from any ventilation)
- people would light up on the way to/from this area; ie accross the floor or infront of the rest of the room.

poss the area at the opposite side of the stage, but most of the points above still apply, with
the addition that it's closer to the DJ/teachers.

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Gadget
(Why does it have to be done? why it is near the bar so everyone has to walk past it? why is the area next to the entrance/exit? why is it so close to the dance floor? Can't smokers polute the 'public' bar area instead?... need to ask Lisa tonight.)

Why not ask people not to smoke at all?

You don't need to smoke to be able to dance but you do need to breathe freely.

N.B. I all ready know the answer to the above question. The answer is that it would be unreasonable to expect a smoker to go for hours without a fag.

But it is also reasonable to expect to attend a dance class without breathing tobacco smoke - in balance a much more reasonable expectation than expecting to be able to smoke and pollute the air in a hall used for dancing.

[Franck]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Why not ask people not to smoke at all? Unfortunately, this is not an option at that particular venue. I tried to make all venues non-smoking in Scotland, but after a couple of weeks, the venue asked us to have a smoking area inside the hall as all smokers would congregate outside and leave butts etc...
This is a tough call, and I would love to have no smokers at Culter, but I can't afford to lose the venue either.
We will try moving the smoking area to the far end of the hall, left of the stage (when facing it), and ask smokers not to smoke during the classes.

[sarahw31]

I recently went to a fairly new local venue, with a good floor, great music and a lovely, friendly teacher. Unfortunately I have been put off returning because as I was taking a breather from the dancing a group of four people came and sat down right beside me ( and there was plenty of room elsewhere ) and 'lit up'. Ugh! I jumped up immediately but too late...my hair and clothes were stinking :( Not only was I forced to breathe in their poison, but I was then paranoid about being 'smelly' for the rest of the night..

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Franck
We will try moving the smoking area to the far end of the hall, left of the stage (when facing it), and ask smokers not to smoke during the classes.
:wink: :cheers:

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Franck
Unfortunately, this is not an option at that particular venue. I tried to make all venues non-smoking in Scotland, but after a couple of weeks, the venue asked us to have a smoking area inside the hall as all smokers would congregate outside and leave butts etc...
This is a tough call, and I would love to have no smokers at Culter, but I can't afford to lose the venue either.
We will try moving the smoking area to the far end of the hall, left of the stage (when facing it), and ask smokers not to smoke during the classes.

I think Franck has been sucked into the smokers game. The one where smokers have to smoke - they don't have to, they choose to!!! On the other hand, if smokers choose to smoke in the same rooms as non-smokers the latter have absolutely no choice but to stay away or risk their health:sick:

There is absolutely no excuse for putting dancers health at risk by allowing smokers to cause non-smokers to passively smoke. Either in the lesson or the freestyle.

So what we have now is the unreasonable situation where smokers are allowed to smoke next to the dance floor, albeit at one end, and non-smokers have to breathe their smoke or stay away:tears: In other words, the smokers have won and the non-smokers have lost.

Wake up - I'll say it again. Smokers do not have to smoke. If they smoke outside and risk the class being banned by being messy and obstructive they should be coached to behave reasonably or banned if they fail to comply. If I constanlty left rubbish around a venue that wasn't cigarette butts I would be told off and threatened with banning - why should smokers be treated any differently.

Franck, please don't play the smoker's game. Ban smoking or ban smokers because effectively you are excluding the completely blameless non-smokers who care about their health by allowing smokers to smoke near the dance floor. And to take this to a more general level. So is every other organiser who allows smoking next to their dance floor - or even worse, smokes themselves next to the dance floor like I have seen 2 Ceroc organisers doing.

N.B. I know Franck has made great strides on the smoking and dancing front and has taken this action due to specific circumstances and after much consideration. But I think a few inconsiderate smokers have forced his hand and I don't think he should have given in to them.

p.s. Please don't feel free to moan that I'm back on the smoking hobby horse. It's a long battle and progress is painfully slow. If you don't like reading about it please unsubscribe this thread rather than defend inconsiderate smokers - also, please remember that there are considerate smokers out there who cause problems for nobody but themselves and we should let them be - for now:flower:

[PeterL]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor

p.s. Please don't feel free to moan that I'm back on the smoking hobby horse. It's a long battle and progress is painfully slow. If you don't like reading about it please unsubscribe this thread rather than defend inconsiderate smokers - also, please remember that there are considerate smokers out there who cause problems for nobody but themselves and we should let them be - for now:flower:


I may be reading this wrong but it appears to say.
You have stated your opinion and have posted it to the forum, if you disagree then don't read.
I do strongly disagree in this circumstance, Frank has obviously tried to ban smoking and the premises has forced his hand not the smokers, if you have a complaint it is with the venue, not with Frank and any complaints should be levelled at them.

However If anyone disagrees with me, feel free to make posts as that is the strength of a public forum.
:cheers:

[Aleks]

:yeah:

Welcome back PeterL!

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by PeterL
I may be reading this wrong but it appears to say.
You have stated your opinion and have posted it to the forum, if you disagree then don't read.

-snip-

However If anyone disagrees with me, feel free to make posts as that is the strength of a public forum.
:cheers:

I think PeterL and I are on the same wavelength when it comes to open debate and this is my, possibly clumsy, attempt to stifle the posts which try to stifle the debate about smoking and dancing. The only thing I've asked people not to do is moan about is that I'm " back on the smoking hobby horse". Firstly, I would welcome a defence/diagreement which stated the reasons why smokers believe they have the right to smoke next to the dance floor and secondly I would welcome support from people who agree with me.

What I mean is that I feel people complaining that I'm 'going on' about smoking does not further the argument. It's an argument about an argument. I would rather the debate was about the facts and much of the previous debate about smoking and dancing has been that we should not be debating it - which does not, in my opinion further the debate but stifles it.

I did not say 'if you disagree then don't read', that is what PeterL has made my words mean and it was not their intended meaning. What I said was 'if you don't like reading about it unsubscribe rather than defend inconsiderate smokers', but on second thoughts, PeterL is right and that was the wrong thing for me to say - please feel free to defend inconsiderate smokers.



Originally posted by PeterL
I do strongly disagree in this circumstance, Frank has obviously tried to ban smoking and the premises has forced his hand not the smokers, if you have a complaint it is with the venue, not with Frank and any complaints should be levelled at them.


Like many others, PeterL is playing the smokers game to their rules too. The owners of the premises are NOT to blame - it is the smokers who are smoking, and the owners of the premises are reacting to the smoker's unreasonable behavior - after all, if they'd been reasonable and hadn't littered and obstructed the outside of the premises the owners would have had nothing to complain about.

So I still say that 'smokers don't have to smoke'. If they can't smoke inside and they can't smoke outside they just can't smoke. Where's the problem?:confused:

[Aleks]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Like many others, PeterL is playing the smokers game to their rules too. The owners of the premises are NOT to blame - it is the smokers who are smoking, and the owners of the premises are reacting to the smoker's unreasonable behavior - after all, if they'd been reasonable and hadn't littered and obstructed the outside of the premises the owners would have had nothing to complain about.

So I still say that 'smokers don't have to smoke'. If they can't smoke inside and they can't smoke outside they just can't smoke. Where's the problem?:confused:

The owners of the premises have their part in this.....they allow smoking in their venue, which they seem to consider a positive alternative to forcing the smokers outside:confused: . Are all smokers so inconsiderate that they would not use bins provided if they were clearly marked?

[PeterL]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
So I still say that 'smokers don't have to smoke'. If they can't smoke inside and they can't smoke outside they just can't smoke. Where's the problem?:confused:

The problem is society and I agree that smokers should not smoke, howevre society has allowed it and bussinesses such as bars believe it is financially unviable not to allow it.

I think you have won the argument with Ceroc scotland and smoking will be banned whereever thay have the power to do it.

So the next step (as far as Scotland is concerned) is to make the bussinesses (i.e. venues) agree with the argument.

The only way to do this is to make them believe that it makes practical business sense.

i.e. they will earn more money.

Ceroc have a very poor case as dancers do not spend a lot and so they are limited as to venues that agree to let there premises be used for events.

As a ceroc franchiser Frank can
1. Take his business elsewhere.
2.......any other suggestions

as customers of the venue you can start asking the venue to do something about the smoking and generally just pointing out health benefits etc will not work. You have to justify it on money grounds.

I agree with you totally about the smoking I just think that Frank is the wrong person to complain at as he is doing his best... the rest is up to the customers.

Possible alternatives would you be willing to pay a surplus on there drinks cost or entry cost to avoid smoking as although you and I know that custom would not be dramatically affected, try persuading a venue owner of that.


I hope the above adds to the debate in a constructive way.

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Aleks
. Are all smokers so inconsiderate that they would not use bins provided if they were clearly marked?

No, only the inconsiderate ones didn't use the bins - obviously!

[Aleks]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
No, only the inconsiderate ones didn't use the bins - obviously!

I think you are assuming there are clearly marked bins for that purpose outside the venue - often there aren't.

BTW The dancing smokers I know stub their (smelly) cigarette out and deliberately find a bin to put it in......

[Sheepman]

Mental note - don't come to Culter when I visit Scotland.

If the non smokers feel strongly enough about the problem at this venue there's a simple solution, don't go! I know I wouldn't. OK this may be easier in London where we have the choice of multiple venues every night. But if enough non smokers stopped going, then the venue would have to change its policy, or Franck would have to find somewhere else.

Of course it shouldn't have to be like this, why should smokers spoil the evening for the others?

Greg

PS Of course littering public places with cigarette butts is an offence, I think it is Leicester where the wardens are pretty hot on this, and one butt could cost you a £50/£60 fine. I believe Wandsworth earns top place In London as far as litter louts getting fined.

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by PeterL
The problem is society and I agree that smokers should not smoke, however society has allowed it and businesses such as bars believe it is financially unviable not to allow it.

That's because 'society' is being tricked into playing the smokers game to the smokers rules. And one of their rules is 'if you don't let me smoke I won't come and you won't get my money'. Now that non-smokers are in the majority I think we can start to say 'I won't come if you expect me to spend my leisure time in a smoky atmosphere and you won't get my money.

In other words society needs to change to take into account the most recent evidence linking smoking to disease - and the more it's talked about the more that change will start to become accepted.


Originally posted by PeterL
Ceroc have a very poor case as dancers do not spend a lot and so they are limited as to venues that agree to let there premises be used for events.

As a ceroc franchiser Frank can
1. Take his business elsewhere.
2.......any other suggestions


Franck could tell his customers that he says they can't smoke next to the dance floor and that the venue owners say they can't congregate outside and smoke. The smokers can then decide if they will go and if they will smoke or where they will smoke - easier said than done though. And if some smokers don't play ball they could lose Franck his venue:tears:

So Franck has had to make a difficult decision and he's probably made the right one for now.

However, there are some other venues within Ceroc that could easily ban smoking in the same hall as dancing but choose not to. Why is that?

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Sheepman
Of course it shouldn't have to be like this, why should smokers spoil the evening for the others?


Smokers might argue that whinging non-smokers are spoiling the evening for them. When I complain to smokers I often get this response.

They also argue that they've always been allowed to smoke in premises that are open to the public. The thing is that times have changed, there's now enough evidence of the harm it's doing to ban smoking from public places - and it's just a matter of time before it happens.

But the public need to accept this change before any goverment is going to risk losing votes by introducing a new law. And debates like this will, hopefully, signal that the time is NOW!

[PeterL]

I thought this was a good time to write this

I have recently read a book by Allen carr

The EASYWAY to quit smoking, and the misconceptions that both smokers and non-smokers make are quite unbelievable.
As a society we have been brainwashed.

He claims a 95% success rate at persuading people to become non-smokers.
in context patches have a 4% success rate.
and he claims that you will not continue your whole life wishing for a ciggarette as is the case in many ex-smokers.

I would just like to reccomend both smokers and non-smokers to read this book, Andy as you are so anti-smoking (so am I, except I am unlucky enough to have been trapped by a disgusting addiction) I would reccomend you to read this book, as understanding the enemy is often better than confronting him.

If you have children get his book on how to make sure your children don't start smoking- I cannot reccomend this book enough-give it as a gift to friends who want to stop smoking etc.

He tells smokers what they already know and removes the brainwashing of society, I will be a non-smoker next week and hate every ciggarette I now smoke and I plan on pitying smokers for the rest of my life as they ( and me up to now) are the real victims.

Andy read the book and reccomend it to smokers.:cheers: :cheers:

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by PeterL
Andy read the book and reccomend it to smokers.:cheers: :cheers:

HEY SMOKERS, BUY THIS BOOK

I'm going to buy it to read on holiday next week if there's a blizzard in the Alps.

[Lynn]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
... there's now enough evidence of the harm it's doing to ban smoking from public places - and it's just a matter of time before it happens.
I think I read last week that this is being planned for Liverpool and has already happened in Dublin?

Going through Belfast Int Airport a few weeks ago I noticed in the baggage reclaim hall there was a ‘smokers corner’ - the rest was non-smoking (and although I’m not a fan of smoking, for both health and ‘smell’ reasons, I can understand that after a long non-smoking flight someone might want to light up straightaway.) This corner was marked out by different colour floor and some smokers were standing right at the edge inside the line looking out. This is what is happening in some public places smokers being almost ‘penned in’ to a small (and very smoky) corner. I’m not sure that is an ideal solution for anyone.

I want to dance in a smoke free environment. There are two ways this can be achieved – I only go to venues that are completely non-smoking, limiting my choice of venues and maybe missing otherwise great evenings. Or I can go to venues where smokers don’t smoke near the dance floor. This can be enforced by the venue organiser, but may also be a result of other dancers who do smoke being considerate and thoughtful of others by not smoking near the dancefloor, not littering places either etc. :hug: Maybe some of the rest can learn by their example.
:flower:

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Lynn


-snip-

This is what is happening in some public places smokers being almost ‘penned in’ to a small (and very smoky) corner. I’m not sure that is an ideal solution for anyone.

Smokers always have the option of not smoking, sounds too simple really.

And the counter arugument that they can't go without smoking, when taken to it's conclusion, makes smokers disabled by their habit - which can't be right, or is it?

[PeterL]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor

And the counter arugument that they can't go without smoking, when taken to it's conclusion, makes smokers disabled by their habit - which can't be right, or is it?



Smokers are simply addicted to a drug. They believe that they need a ciggarette to function correctly (THEY ARE WRONG). It is a similar feeling to claustrophobia.
A claustrophobic is perfectly capable of being in a confined space however they fear this.
The same is true for smokers, I think you will find the Allen Car book interesting.

A smoker is miserable when he is smoking because he feels guilty and he feels he is trapped and he is miserable when he is not smoking because he feels deprived. He does not like to be told all the pitfalls of smoking because believe it or not he knows them (better than any non-smoker) he lives with them. He fools himself into believing that there are good reasons for him to smoke (like it is a habit or it is hard to quit, or it is sociable) he does this to maintain what little self respect he has left.
Smokers are trapped and they are now luckily a dying breed , no pun intended.
Nicotine is one of the fastest acting and easiest drugs to get addicted to in the world, howveer it is fast acting and is also one of the quickest to get over the physical withdrawals, howver the mental addiction far outlives the physical and even years later you hear ex-smokers say they would love a cigg. what they are craving is something they never had as a ciggarette does not make you feel better, it relieves withdrawals which it causes. A smoker smokes so that he can feel like a non-smoker.

Smokers do not choose to smoke they have fallen into a trap, no-one ever said I will smoke for the rest of my life. They tried ciggarettes believing they would never get hooked. They can however choose to quit- the trick is to persuade them they are not giving anything up, they are only gaining- smoking has no benefits whatsoever.

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by PeterL
Nicotine is one of the fastest acting and easiest drugs to get addicted to in the world, howveer it is fast acting and is also one of the quickest to get over the physical withdrawals, howver the mental addiction far outlives the physical and even years later you hear ex-smokers say they would love a cigg. what they are craving is something they never had as a ciggarette does not make you feel better, it relieves withdrawals which it causes. A smoker smokes so that he can feel like a non-smoker.


I saw this with heroin addicts where there is physiological dependence as well as the reward of a high. They abused a drug I worked with called buprenorphine. It didn't make them high but it made the withdrawal symptoms go away so they felt - normal. The evidence was that they couldn't become physiologically dependent on buprenorphine - but they took it habitually just to feel 'normal'.

It also had a common side-effect of nausea and vomiting:sick: but that was better than the withdrawal from heroin:tears:

I learnt a long time ago that you can't nag a smoker into giving up. My dad only gave up after his 2nd or 3rd heart attack (they're not sure if one of them was angina). My mum still smokes and just lies about being a smoker. It's her birthday tomorrow, guess what book I'm buying her:wink:

[PeterL]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
It's her birthday tomorrow, guess what book I'm buying her:wink:


My mate bought the book for his in-laws.
they were not planning on quitting yet they stopped within a week and haven't smoked for over a month now.

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Sheepman
Mental note - don't come to Culter when I visit Scotland.There's a shame Greg.

Have to say, that I'm about as rabid as they come on the anti-smoking thing (just less vociferous recently than Andy), but I really don't find it a problem at Culter. Since it's limited to one small area, I just dance away from that area. And I don't usually have enough time for drinks, so I don't go to the bar, so that doesn't worry me.

I know that Franck would make it a non-smoking venue if he could, so you can't really hold it against him that it isn't.

Steve

[foxylady]

Forget lung cancer - smoking makes men impotent


Heard this announced on the radio this afternoon. If that doesn't give people an incentive to either not breathe others smoke or stop breathing their own (and make a stand :rofl: about it), what else will !!

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by TheTramp
but I really don't find it a problem at Culter. Well you know I'm easily lead, especially by you :kiss:

PeterL mentioned that smokers already know all the risks, I think some of the earlier posts in this thread don't show this. Here's an extra statistic I just heard on the news, I know it's not excatly news as far as a smoking related problem is concerned, 130,000 men between 30 & 50 are impotent due to smoking, with a few assumptions (like 40% of men in this age range are smokers), I make it that about 1 in 11 are impotent.

So there are probably as many impotent male smokers at a dance night than there are gays, perhaps these are the people who have so much of a problem with men dancing together, as they can't get their share of the fun off the dancefloor? :wink:

Greg

Huh, deja vu again, I now see I've been beaten to it by the foxylady

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by foxylady
Forget lung cancer - smoking makes men impotent


Heard this announced on the radio this afternoon. If that doesn't give people an incentive to either not breathe others smoke or stop breathing their own (and make a stand :rofl: about it), what else will !!

Maybe I'll take up smoking:devil:

'sorry, I can't manage it, smoking has made me impotent'

[Aleks]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Maybe I'll take up smoking:devil:

'sorry, I can't manage it, smoking has made me impotent'

From a man with your imagination I find that a really lame excuse.:whistle:

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Aleks
From a man with your imagination I find that a really lame excuse.:whistle:

I so rarely get the opportunity to prove my impotence it's not an area I've applied my creativity to:innocent:

And I was wondering about those guys that were made impotent by smoking - how exactly are they smoking their tobacco and where are they stubbing them out?:what:

[Will]

How about selling "Snuff" at Ceroc venues? That way people can get their fix without filling the venue with smoke.

[gtman]

Glad to say non of the people I know smoke.
If they did I wouldnt know them for much longer.

It stinks.

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Will
How about selling "Snuff" at Ceroc venues? That way people can get their fix without filling the venue with smoke.

It would still make you impotent but at least you wouldn't run the risk of fire!!!

And you'd be sneezing so much you might even invent a new move...

[Lynn]

Heard on the news this morning that the smoking ban in Dublin will come into effect from next month. This is a complete smoking ban in all pubs, hotels and restaurants. Venue owners can be fined I think E2,000 if they don’t enforce it. Liverpool is also considering this. Anyone heard of any other UK cities heading this direction?

[Stuart M]

Originally posted by Lynn
Anyone heard of any other UK cities heading this direction?
There is a Private Member's Bill (from Stewart Maxwell MSP) currently going through the Scottish Parliament, which would ban smoking in any place where food is served. Not quite far enough admittedly, but progress nonetheless. You can view his arguments here (http://www.epolitix.com/EN/News/200401/ca7f9c18-1bfa-4934-8c19-08d563bdfcb2.htm)

Not quite sure how you can register your support if you want, but as he's an SNP person, there's probably something on their site about it (the link above is to a news site).

[TheTramp]

Sounds like I might add Dublin to my list of holiday destinations!!

Wonder whether, if that bill goes through, pubs will stop serving food. Or whether they'll turn the traditional 'lounge' and 'bar' rooms into 'smoking, no-food', and 'non-smoking, food' rooms.

Might even get me voting again! :D

Steve

[Stuart M]

Here's a thought - apologies if it's already been raised. At the UK Champs at Hammersmith last year, bags were searched to prevent drink and food being brought into the venue (presumably the Palais' policy, not Ceroc's). Were cigarettes confiscated too? I distinctly remember there being a cigarette machine inside the venue, so surely the same principle applies. Double standards...?

[azande]

Originally posted by Lynn
Anyone heard of any other UK cities heading this direction?
And what road would that be? The "I only care about me and what happens to my little space where I live" when images like THESE (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2274) didn't generate even one comment?

PS
Lynn sorry, this is not directed against you (or anyone else for that matter).

[Lynn]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Wonder whether, if that bill goes through, pubs will stop serving food. Or whether they'll turn the traditional 'lounge' and 'bar' rooms into 'smoking, no-food', and 'non-smoking, food' rooms.
I don't think they will be able to have a 'smoking' part at all, whether food is served or not. I think the reason behind it is to protect the health of workers in these environments, but there is also concern that it will lead to some job losses.

And as far I can tell from the news this morning, the bill has already gone through. I don't have loads of details as just caught it on the local morning news.

[Lynn]

Originally posted by azande
And what road would that be? The "I only care about me and what happens to my little space where I live" when images like THESE (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2274) didn't generate even one comment?

PS
Lynn sorry, this is not directed against you (or anyone else for that matter).
I was just asking if anyone else had heard of any other places thinking about banning smoking from public venues like hotels, surely a relevant comment in a thread about smoking and dancing? :what:

(PS - didn't take your comment personally :nice: just not sure how it fits with the smoking and dancing issue)

[Lynn]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Sounds like I might add Dublin to my list of holiday destinations!!

Wonder whether, if that bill goes through, pubs will stop serving food. Or whether they'll turn the traditional 'lounge' and 'bar' rooms into 'smoking, no-food', and 'non-smoking, food' rooms.

Might even get me voting again! :D

Steve
Sorry - just realised you were referring to Scotland in the second sentence. :blush:

[Dan Hudson]

Thought I would announce that

Ceroc Greenwich are moving their Charlton Venue to
Meridian Sports and Social Club
Charlton Park Lane
London SE7

We have the pleasure of confirming this venue will be NO SMOKING!!

Both venues at Ceroc Greenwich are now No Smoking

Pease see www.cerocgreenwich.co.uk for details

:clap: :clap: :cheers:

[Dan Hudson]

Thought I would announce that

Ceroc Greenwich are moving their Charlton Venue to
Meridian Sports and Social Club
Charlton Park Lane
London SE7

We have the pleasure of confirming this venue will be NO SMOKING!!

Both venues at Ceroc Greenwich are now No Smoking

Pease see www.cerocgreenwich.co.uk for details

:clap: :clap: :cheers:

[Sheepman]

So who else had problems with the smoke at the Champs? OK, I did "park" myself upstairs by the bar, but it was just totally disgusting. I don't recall this being a problem at all last year. I know it certainly wasn't as bad downstairs.

Greg

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Sheepman
So who else had problems with the smoke at the Champs? OK, I did "park" myself upstairs by the bar, but it was just totally disgusting. I don't recall this being a problem at all last year. I know it certainly wasn't as bad downstairs.
............:yeah:

It was pretty bad at times, even downstairs, and although Mike's request for consideration was welcome, IMHO it was much too late and nowhere near strong enough.

I was having a warm up with Jayne at one point and there was a guy standing on the dancefloor puffing away... I asked him not to smoke on the dancefloor, and you know what the complete t***er did?

He moved precisely 4 feet backwards, stood _just_ off the edge of the floor, and continued puffing away. F***wits like that we can do without IMO. :angry: I really did feel like going up to him and belting him one... and not much sends me ballistic like that.

I just don't buy this "the venue owners allow smoking so we have to" business either. Why can't the event organisers have their own rules? Ok, I can see why a non-smoking venue couldn't be made smoking by a hirer, but why should the other way round not be possible?

Chris

[Paul F]

Originally posted by ChrisA
............:yeah:

I was having a warm up with Jayne at one point and there was a guy standing on the dancefloor puffing away... I asked him not to smoke on the dancefloor, and you know what the complete t***er did?

He moved precisely 4 feet backwards, stood _just_ off the edge of the floor, and continued puffing away. F***wits like that we can do without IMO. :angry: I really did feel like going up to him and belting him one... and not much sends me ballistic like that.

Chris

Thats really bad. I hate inconsiderate people. Must confess I didnt notice it being too bad for smoking but I guess it was just a case of me not paying attention (well i was up very early :blush: )

Totally agree if thats the case. I think it should have been more controlled. I dont mind people smoking but if they could have restricted it to a certain "small" area - or maybe even down the street :grin:

[RobC]

Could be good news for the ban-smoking-on-the-dancefloor loby:

Blair's hint on smoking ban (http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.com/StoryFT/FullStory&c=StoryFT&cid=1085944537062)

Considering DJs, teachers, taxi dancers and everyone else involved in running a dance night are technically working, surely they should be afforded the same rights of not having to work in a smokey workplace.... :devil:

All we need now is for a polititian to actually live up to their pre-election promises :rolleyes:

[Dan Hudson]

We have a totally smoke free franchise now. Both venues are no smoking. It has not had any adverse effect on numbers as some think.

It is lovely to go home and not smell of smoke.

The smokers still come, just light up outside on the balcony, normally with a nice drink and a towel!!

Come on the rest of you, lets set the trend!!!

Dan

[Zuhal]

I conducted an experiment at University to try and show smokers how their habit effected me. (this was some 25 years ago when attitudes were different)

I sat in a weekly philosophy seminar where I was the sole non-smoker amongst 5, which included the Tutor.

When it was my turn to discuss John Stuart Mill I took 4 very juicy oranges to the seminar and spent the whole hour squirting, peeling and throwing orange peel at the others while eating and sharing the segments.

They all got upset that I was showering them and that the discourse was interrupted by my apparent disregard for human decency. The crux of my point was; that they quite happily disturbed me in the same way every week with their smoke and disrupted my “free will”

Zuhal

[Sheepman]

With yesterday's news, this thread has become topical again. (Is it ever NOT topical if you dance in smokey venues?)

Smokers 'will die 10 years early'

About 12m British adults smoke
Smoking cigarettes cuts an average of 10 years off a person's life, a landmark study suggests. But it also shows that quitting at any age reduces the risks of dying from smoking-related diseases.
The findings, published in the British Medical Journal, are the culmination of a 50-year study involving 34,439 men.
The study, which began in 1951, was the first to confirm the link between smoking and lung cancer exactly 50 years ago. I don't suppose this is news to many of us. More here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3826127.stm)

On doing a Google search, by chance I came across the "UK SMOKEFREE RESTARUANT GUIDE" - the Scotland section. I though "that'll be handy for our upcoming trip", when I looked, there are a total of 8 restaurants listed. You're not exactly spoilt for choice! Though I'm not sure the rest of the UK would do much better. Is this a missed opportunity? I heard a report saying that custom in Ireland's pubs has increased since the soking ban was imposed.

Greg

[RobC]

by chance I came across the "UK SMOKEFREE RESTARUANT GUIDE"
Anyone feel like compiling the "UK SMOKEFREE DANCE VENUE GUIDE" ? :devil:

I'm sure that we could find a small corner of the web to host such a useful resource..... :cheers:

[Dreadful Scathe]

Anyone feel like compiling the "UK SMOKEFREE DANCE VENUE GUIDE" ? :devil:

I'm sure that we could find a small corner of the web to host such a useful resource..... :cheers:
I would be happy to host it but wouldnt have time to do all of the research...team effort anyone ?

Note in the papar today some MSPs would like smoking to be banned in all pubs and restaurants in Scotland, wonder how quickly that'll happen.

[Jayne]

Note in the papar today some MSPs would like smoking to be banned in all pubs and restaurants in Scotland, wonder how quickly that'll happen.
While I was over in Ireland last month I was talking to a girl who is part of some Scottish Government health panel type thingy. She's involved with bringing the smoking ban to places of work in Scotland and apparently the word is that it'll be hard to get the law through in Scotland & even harder to enforce it. The reason being that the Scots as a nation don't like being told what to do. That's not my opinion, but what the government bodies are perceiving.

It's a shame because going out was just soooo civilised in Ireland!

Hope the law comes in in England though! :clap:

J :nice:

[Dreadful Scathe]

and Wales :)

[Sheepman]

The reason being that the Scots as a nation don't like being told what to do. :rofl: :rofl:
How much time did she spend in Ireland? Having lived there for several years, it was a revelation to me at how the Irish have a disregard for the law, (maybe the Scots are worse? :really: )
Examples that spring to mind.
The reduction in the legal alcohol in blood level for driving was imposed shortly before Christmas, there was so much of a fuss made, that the government doubled the limit for the Christmas period.

Also on driving, the amnesty that was given to all those drivers who didn't have driving licences, they were just given new licences, no testing required.

Other amnesties on things like tax, "Oh you've been defrauding the revenue commissioners for years, but as long as you own up and pay up, we'll let you off."

IMO Ireland was very like Italy, without the sunshine.

Greg

[Minnie M]

:clap: :cheers: :clap:
just received this from Steve Nash

Broadbridge Heath is now a NON-SMOKING venue Following a trial over four months, the hall (by popular demand) has now been deemed non-smoking on Ceroc nights Smokers can join the stupid teachers in the foyer or the bar.

[Dance Demon]

While I was over in Ireland last month I was talking to a girl who is part of some Scottish Government health panel type thingy. She's involved with bringing the smoking ban to places of work in Scotland and apparently the word is that it'll be hard to get the law through in Scotland & even harder to enforce it. The reason being that the Scots as a nation don't like being told what to do. That's not my opinion, but what the government bodies are perceiving



could also be because Scotland has it's own legal system, independant of England & Wales. Scots Law is a whole different ball game. That's why we enjoy far more lenient licensing laws up here, and not everything closes at 11pm
:D

[Andy McGregor]

:clap: :cheers: :clap:
just received this from Steve Nash

Broadbridge Heath is now a NON-SMOKING venue Following a trial over four months, the hall (by popular demand) has now been deemed non-smoking on Ceroc nights Smokers can join the stupid teachers in the foyer or the bar.

At last! I haven't been to Broadbridge Heath for ages because of the smoking. Steve Nash teaches a fun lesson and I recommend that people go there now the smoking has stopped:clap:

[Lory]

Holly (my daughter) came home from a party the other night with a horrid burn mark on the top of her back, :eek: when I asked what happened, she replyed that a boy had accidently done it with a cigarette whilst dancing on the dance floor! :angry:

Apparently he said he didn't mean to! :what: well I suppose that makes it OK then :angry:

[Andy McGregor]

At last! I haven't been to Broadbridge Heath for ages because of the smoking. Steve Nash teaches a fun lesson and I recommend that people go there now the smoking has stopped:clap:

I went dancing again in Broadbridge Heath Ceroc tonight. Steve Nash was on-form as usual :clap: And a Taxi dancer told me that the night is getting so much more popular since the smoking ban :clap:

About a year ago we were told on this thread that Ceroc Kent were reviewing their smoking policy - I wonder what the result of that review was? :innocent:

p.s. My own opinion is that Ceroc Kent have made no changes because they haven't had to, they're still putting the health of their customers and staff at risk - tell me I'm wrong Gordy...

[Dance Demon]

sorry to drag this ip again.. :blush: but.....
At Route 66 there is an area in front of the bar with big comfy stools and tables, that gets used as a kind of "chill out & Chat" area. Unfortunately we forgot to take the ashtrays off the tables tonight. At one point in the evening, I got a complaint that someone was smoking. I approached this person, and explained politely that this is a non smoking venue, and that the ashtrays were on the table by mistake, and could they please go outside to smoke. the person was not too pleased and ended up leaving , telling me on the way out that they wouldn't be back. i thought that this was a pity, as they had driven through from Glasgow, which takes around an hour, and they hadn't been there for long. No one else has had a problem with our no smoking policy. and every other smoker goes outside to smoke. In fact the person who complained, is actually a smoker. I find it hard to understand why, despite there being a notice on the front desk that the venue had a no smoking policy, that someone would decide to light up anyway......... :sad:

[Rentaghost]

p.s. My own opinion is that Ceroc Kent have made no changes because they haven't had to, they're still putting the health of their customers and staff at risk - tell me I'm wrong Gordy...

Ceroc at Maidstone will be non-smoking from 2nd September as the Hazlitt Theatre complex is going non-smoking.

Maybe we will see you there again, Andy? :flower:

Sarah.

[Andy McGregor]

Ceroc at Maidstone will be non-smoking from 2nd September as the Hazlitt Theatre complex is going non-smoking.


It's great to hear that another Ceroc Kent venue is being forced to go non-smoking: or is it?

For over a year now Ceroc Kent have been "considering their smoking policy". And, as far as I can see, they've decided to make every venue a smoking venue unless the venue owner bans smoking :sick:


Maybe we will see you there again, Andy? :flower:

Sarah.

I'll be going to Maidstone to dance with the lovely Sarah and hope others will too. Once Ceroc Kent see their numbers go up due to a smoking ban they might ban smoking in all their venues - which would be nice :flower:

[Gus]

Hadnt really thought too much about this debate until a couple of incidents over the last week. Same thing happened twice. Lovely female dancer spotted, nice dance style AND attractive. ... ask onto the floor then as I bring them into armjive to chat hit full in the face with nicotine breath ... GROSS :tears: Made mental note to avoid both dancers in the future.

[Andy McGregor]

Made mental note to avoid both dancers in the future.

I've noticed this phenomenon with some partners, sometimes attractive, sometimes not - I don't avoid dancing with them. But I do try to remember to hold my breath in the close moves :sick:

[Baruch]

I've noticed this phenomenon with some partners, sometimes attractive, sometimes not - I don't avoid dancing with them. But I do try to remember to hold my breath in the close moves :sick:

You're a braver man than me, then. If I know somebody has been smoking, I make a deliberate point of not asking them to dance. Don't know what I'd do if one of them asked me, but so far that hasn't happened.

When I go dancing, I'm there to enjoy myself. I can't do that if I'm getting blasts of nicotine breath from the lady I'm dancing with. To me, there's no stronger deterrent.

[Sheepman]

Lovely female dancer spotted. Obviously not a zebra then! :wink:
I assume the nicotine breath fades fairly quickly, but just as bad is getting a face full of nicotine scented hair, where the smell lingers far longer. :sick:

But instead of just having a moan about it, should we adopt Chris A's policy with stinkers, and tell our partner why we are keeping our distance. Despite the embarrassment factor, I'd much rather know if people were avoiding me for being smelly, because hopefully I could do something about it!

Greg

[horsey_dude]

I am totally opposed to smoking and dancing I hate it when you grab the womans hand and burn your fingers and when they have a cigarette in their mouth an step in too close the smoke gets in your eye not to mention all the ash and burns on my clothes Grrrrr don't get me started!

HD

[MartinHarper]

From elsewhere:


if everyone already goes outside to smoke it should be very easy for Ceroc Kent to change their policy as it shouldn't make any difference to anyone

The poll doesn't have an option for "I love venues where all the dancers who smoke are sensible enough to do so considerately without requiring some kind of authoritarian dictat from the organiser". Such considerate dancers are also, for example, likely to use mints after smoking to minimise the smell of nicotine. Bravo to Ceroc Kent, and to anyone else who avoids making rules just for the sake of making rules... :)

[Andy McGregor]

snip

and to anyone else who avoids making rules just for the sake of making rules... :)

I wish this were true. There are venues that permit smoking next to the dance floor - and some smokers take advantage of that permission :sick:

Considerate smokers would not have to change their habits if there was a smoking ban as they already go outside. The inconsiderate smokers who smoke next to the dance floor would be the only people affected by a ban - so why not ban it?

[MartinHarper]

There are venues that permit smoking next to the dance floor - and some smokers take advantage of that permission

And according to Gordon, smokers at Bromley do not do so. Isn't that great?


why not ban it?

Because it's always better, if you can, to achieve these things by talking to people and persuading them to do the right thing, rather than by making dictats and attempting to force them to do the right thing.

[Gordon J Pownall]

And according to Gordon, smokers at Bromley do not do so. Isn't that great?

.......by talking to people and persuading them to do the right thing, rather than by making dictats and attempting to force them to do the right thing.

Have some rep mate.....

Interestingly Andy has not (to my knowledge) directly contacted Ceroc Kent and asked for clear and definitive guidance about smoking at their venues... :whistle:

Andy is a great guy, lovely dancer and the life and soul :worthy: and I would love to have him (not biblically... :what: ) at Maidstone on Thursdays at the Hazlett Theatre which is, with DJ Bunnie as resident host DJ, an excellent night out. :worthy:

I would love to see Andy come along to Ceroc Metro Cheshunt freestyles on the first and third Friday of each month as well - I know it's a bit further to travel however there is no reason for Andy not to visit based purely on the smoking issue - distance etc maybe, but not smoking.....

Come on Andy - give Virginia and Adam a ring - find out for yourself what the policy is at the various venues and come and have a dance with us converts to fresh air...!!! :wink: :wink: :waycool:

[Andy McGregor]

Have some rep mate.....

Interestingly Andy has not (to my knowledge) directly contacted Ceroc Kent and asked for clear and definitive guidance about smoking at their venues... :whistle:


I posted that correspondence on this thread on a post ages ago. That's how I know what Ceroc Kent's smoking policy is - Virginia told me.


Andy is a great guy, lovely dancer and the life and soul :worthy: and I would love to have him (not biblically... :what: ) at Maidstone on Thursdays at the Hazlett Theatre which is, with DJ Bunnie as resident host DJ, an excellent night out. :worthy:


Thank you Gordy, have some rep. As you know, I've been going to Ceroc Metro on a Sunday once a month - apart from this month as I was away :tears: I also supported Ceroc Metro when they opened in Shoreham and went on their Sailing holiday. Also, I occasionally go to Ceroc Kent's class in Croydon - and that's fab too :clap:


but not smoking.....

I wish all smokers were as considerate as Gordon and DJ Bunnie. The unfortunate thing is that a minority of them need to be told to smoke outside and that requires rules: it's a sad fact of life :tears: If it wasn't I wouldn't have known that Bromley and Rochester were smoking venues.

[MartinHarper]

I posted that correspondence on this thread on a post ages ago.

Yep. Post #75, this thread, 22 Sept 2003. :)


The unfortunate thing is that a minority of them need to be told to smoke outside and that requires rules: it's a sad fact of life

That's not a sad fact of life, that's your opinion. From earlier in this thread:


Any smokers we do have always smoke outside the venue, which keeps the air smoke-free. We, as crew, don't actually ban them from smoking, it's just an unwritten rule, so even our newbies dive outside for a fag. We teach our punters well!

Either Funky Si is lying to us, or else your opinion is incorrect.

[Andy McGregor]

Are some people trying to claim that smokers never smoke inside the venue and always go outside?


Either Funky Si is lying to us, or else your opinion is incorrect.

It is not my opinion that some smokers choose to smoke inside, it is my observation. But I am willing to concede that I have no evidence to prove that they are in the minority of smokers.

I'm certain that Funky Si is telling the truth for his venue - but that truth doesn't hold for some venues I've been to that have people smoking around the dance floor :sick:

As further evidence that there are some smokers who are as considerate and lovely as Gordy and DJ Bunnie, today I received a PM from an organiser who told me that when they banned smoking they had 20 smokers tell them that they will go elsewhere rather than go outside to smoke - this doesn't sound like the considerate behavior Gordy talks about.

[RobC]

That's not a sad fact of life, that's your opinion.

Either Funky Si is lying to us, or else your opinion is incorrect.
Are you a smoker Martin ?

I'm sorry, but you're spewing out complete tosh. Yes, there are a lot of considerate people out there who understand that not everyone want to inhale their second hand smoke, but there are also some really inconsiderate to$$ers who, while they may be in the minority, give smokers in general a bad name.

[MartinHarper]

Well it looks like I've not been at all clear, so let's try straightening any misunderstanding, eh?


It is not my opinion that some smokers choose to smoke inside, it is my observation.

Yes. I don't believe that I said otherwise.


The unfortunate thing is that a minority of them need to be told to smoke outside and that requires rules: it's a sad fact of life

However, I did say that this statement (my emphasis) was an opinion. It is, sn't it? It's talking about all the smokers who need to be told to smoke outside, as a group - let's call them the NeedTelling group. And the statement claims that the only way to get through to the NeedTelling is via rules: that rules are required.

However, if I look around, I see examples of people (eg Funky Si) claiming that they have got through to members of the NeedTelling via other means, such as cunning use of ashtrays, so this statement seems to me to be incorrect as a general statement. I suppose it might be true for some individuals within this NeedTelling group.

Hmm, I think my original comment was more succinct. :)

----


Are you a smoker Martin ?

I think I've smoked five cigarettes over the course of my life, and perhaps the equivalent of another couple passively. As far as I can tell, this has shaved zero seconds off my life expectancy. :)

My bias is a different one: I like to emphasise all the delightful things, such as smoke-free dance floors, that can be achieved without rules. Andy seems to be promoting rules and signs and boycotts as the best solution to the scourge of smoky dance floors. My instincts make me want to promote alternative solutions instead, and discourage the imposition of smoking bans where the dance floor is already smoke-free.

[RobC]

I'm sure that we all like to think that the world is a happy smiley place where everyone gets on with each other and lives in blissful peace and harmony, but .....

WAKE UP

Unfortunately the world is not like that, and as we have seen from the recent debacle over nasty anonymous rep'ing, these undesirable elements of the 'real world' also exist here in our forum, so it is not an unreasonable extrapolation to say that it exists within the MJ scene (see recent comments about a purse being stolen at Twyford). :mad:

I am fortunate in that all the MJ venues that I frequent are all non-smoking venues and the smokers that go there are the considerate type and go outside when they feel the need to light up. But like Andy, I too have been to venues where smokers have lit up where and when they want, often where there are not even any ash trays, dropping ash and butt ends on the floor. :angry:

[Andy McGregor]

However, I did say that this statement (my emphasis) was an opinion. It is, sn't it? It's talking about all the smokers who need to be told to smoke outside, as a group - let's call them the NeedTelling group. And the statement claims that the only way to get through to the NeedTelling is via rules: that rules are required.

However, if I look around, I see examples of people (eg Funky Si) claiming that they have got through to members of the NeedTelling via other means, such as cunning use of ashtrays, so this statement seems to me to be incorrect as a general statement. I suppose it might be true for some individuals within this NeedTelling group.

This is completely true. There is a large group of smokers in this "NeedTelling" group; they need to be asked to smoke outside as they wouldn't otherwise do it. I also think that group of people who need to be told can be further sub-divided into "BehaviorModifiersOnceThey'veBeenTold" and "UpYoursICanSmokeInHereIfILikeWhere'sTheNoSmokingSi gn?" group - Lets call them Group B and Group U, respectively. How do organisers deal with Group U?


But like Andy, I too have been to venues where smokers have lit up where and when they want, often where there are not even any ash trays, dropping ash and butt ends on the floor. :angry:

I've seen worse than that. At one dance in Hove there were no smoking signs on every wall. When I, in a friendly fashion, mentioned this to the people lighting up around me I was told that the signs must be a mistake as they could usually smoke at that venue! And, at Dartford one Thursday there were signs on every table saying that the whole venue was non-smoking: one woman sat right next to the dance floor chain-smoked all night in spite of the signs and being asked not to by the organisers - and she came back the next week and repeated the whole performance :sick:

Yes, there are many reasonable smokers. BUT there are some unreasonable ones who spoil it for everyone. And IMHO, only a ban that is enforced will work for those unreasonable people.

It would be lovely if the world that Martin Harper talks about existed, we wouldn't need as many criminal laws and everyone would be nice and work for the greater good. In fact, if the world worked like Martin Harper thinks/hopes, there would be no prisons or criminals at all :wink:

[Funky Si]

Just thought I'd add my bit (again). Canterbury is STILL a no-smoking venue, even though we obviously have both smokers and non-smokers as punters. I think my point is that everyone at our venue respects the rule, without having to be told or reminded. IMHO this is mainly down to Kristen teaching them both how to dance and to empathetic to the feelings of others. It works and we have a fab,fun and clean venue with great punters.

On the flip side, if the male teacher (no names yet) actually smokes on stage in front of punters, then the punters will learn that it is acceptable to smoke in a confined public space when the majority of people neither like it or smoke themselves.

Thankew.


Funky Si

www.kordmusic.com

[Andy McGregor]

:yeah:

I think what they've done in Canterbury should be an example to us all.


On the flip side, if the male teacher (no names yet) actually smokes on stage in front of punters, then the punters will learn that it is acceptable to smoke in a confined public space when the majority of people neither like it or smoke themselves.

There's no reason to name that teacher on here. Giving the example is enough :wink:

.. but we'd all love to know :devil:

[MartinHarper]

So, tough decision time.

Do you go to Hove, where there's a smoking ban, lots of no smoking signs, but apparently they have a few punters puffing away next to the dance floor?
Or, do you go to Bromley, where there isn't a smoking ban, but apparently the dancers are all considerate and the dance floor is smoke-free?


if the world worked like Martin thinks/hopes, there would be no prisons or criminals at all

Nice exaggeration! My turn now...
If the world worked like Andy thinks/fears there would have to be laws enforcing compulsorary breathing to prevent us all dropping dead from oxygen starvation. :)

[Zuhal]

Or, do you go to Bromley, where there isn't a smoking ban, but apparently the dancers are all considerate and the dance floor is smoke-free?


My experience of Bromley is that while most people are considerate and obey the polite sign that "smoking is not permitted in the hall" there are still people who fall into category two "UpYoursICanSmokeInHereIfILike"

I admire the thick skinned who feel able to challenge the inconsiderate. Personally I do not want to ruin my evening by having a confrontation with someone who's very action is indicative of their social behaviour
This is all about good manners and consideration.

Andy's point is that a clear Policy from the venue organiser means that individuals do not have to put themselves in line for some abuse to educate the inconsiderate.

Zuhal

[Andy McGregor]

Nice exaggeration!

We aim to please. It was so much easier to go for an extreme rather than say something mild about abuse of pedestrian crossing regulations.



If the world worked like Andy thinks/fears there would have to be laws enforcing compulsorary breathing to prevent us all dropping dead from oxygen starvation. :)

Unfortunately, from my own observations, there are people need a level of instruction close to this - I recently had to fight to retain a health advisor whose job it was to educate young single mothers about proper nutrition for their babies: a common problem was the babies being weaned onto a diet of coke and crisps :tears:

There is a need for regulation. The majority of people are considerate but there are a few selfish people out there who will do as they please. And they will gloat about it too ...

[spindr]

Andy,

Some new t-shirt designs for you: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/11/01/rockall_times_smoking_shirts/

SpinDr.

[ChrisA]

I had an altercation with someone at Hipsters BFFF last week, who was smoking in the corner of the dance floor. The whole of the far corner smelt horrible. :angry: :angry:

I checked with Franco, who assured me it was a non-smoking venue, and I went and spoke to her.

She completely refused to put it out, insisting that because there weren't No-smoking signs everywhere, she had every right to smoke if she wanted to. Short of actual assault, there wasn't much I could do apart from point out the selfishness of her actions, and the unpleasantness it causes for others - which I did, in no uncertain terms.

Considering that she was the only one smoking on the dance floor (although I thought I smelled smoke wafting down from the stage - grrrrrrrrr), I thought it pretty extraordinary that she still felt it was her right.

So I think it should be spelled out with more signs. It was a shame Franco was deluged with people at the bar at the time. I don't know if he went and spoke to her afterwards.

Chris

[Andy McGregor]

So I think it should be spelled out with more signs. It was a shame Franco was deluged with people at the bar at the time. I don't know if he went and spoke to her afterwards.

Chris

Maybe a small sign saying 'This is a non-smoking venue' on the door would be enough. I'm always amazed in France, they seem to think a 'No Smoking' sign means no smoking if you're actually touching the sign :sick:

There is another course of action that, I think, would cause Franco to act very quickly. If an organiser promotes his venue as non-smoking and then fails to enforce that ban he is in breach of contract and you can ask for your money back - I think that's speaking Franco's language :whistle:

[Diane]

I stood on my 'box' this week and suggested that a smoking ban should be implemented at a venue I go to.

There was talk of, 'it could be kept to one area' and 'you can't stop people'.

I don't understand why there are still non-smokers who will tolerate others peoples smoke.

Surely a venue manager can decide on their night if they want the room to be 'smoke free'.

Keeping it to one side just doesn't seem to be any different than smoking everywhere to me. The smoke still gets everywhere.

I hate breathing in smoke when I'm dancing, you can really feel it's effect on the lungs.

I just hope that there are never more than the odd one or two people who choose to smoke at this place.

[Piglet]

It's much nicer to dance in a smoke-free environment for sure and I was pleasantly surprised to find that ceroc promoted the idea of being in a smoke-free environment. The smokers here are usually considerate and I really appreciate that!

:flower:

[Lory]

Keeping it to one side just doesn't seem to be any different than smoking everywhere to me. The smoke still gets everywhere.

:yeah: It's a bit like having a sign up at the swimming pool, saying NO PEEING IN THIS END OF THE POOL! :whistle:


But in reality, I'd rather have smoking kept to one part of a venue, than no restrictions at all!

[Sparkles]

You've probably seen this before, but I saw it and thought of Andy...
enjoy! :grin:

[Gadget]

With the Scottish Parlament just ruling that smoking in public venues should be banned, does anyone know how/if this affects private clubs? or a public venue that is holding a private function?
And anyone know how long before it's introduced? (I could look it up, but I'm lazy :whistle:)

[Graham]

With the Scottish Parlament just ruling that smoking in public venues should be banned, does anyone know how/if this affects private clubs? or a public venue that is holding a private function?
And anyone know how long before it's introduced? (I could look it up, but I'm lazy :whistle:)
Yes, it will apply to private clubs, and also to private functions in a public venue. It will be introduced by the spring of 2006.

[Andy McGregor]

:yeah: It's a bit like having a sign up at the swimming pool, saying NO PEEING IN THIS END OF THE POOL! :whistle:


But in reality, I'd rather have smoking kept to one part of a venue, than no restrictions at all!

My advice is to ban yourself from a venue where you will breathe second-hand smoke. If there's someone smoking in the same room as you are breathing you will breathe some of their smoke - it might be thickest at the end were people are actually smoking but it's still circulated around the room :sick:

One question I haven't had adequately answered is 'what is the reason for permitting smoking in a dance venue?' After all, you don't need to smoke to be able to dance and if you'd like to smoke you can always do it outside or in another room - what is the problem with banning it? :mad:

[MartinHarper]

I don't understand why there are still non-smokers who will tolerate others peoples smoke.

a) Because, unlike others, I don't find cigarette smoke unpleasant, choking, etc. Indeed, the smell is quite pleasant.
b) Because my risk from passive smoking is negligible, likely zero, and in any case insignificant compared to the benefits of regular exercise.

[Graham]

b) Because my risk from passive smoking is negligible, likely zero, and in any case insignificant compared to the benefits of regular exercise.
In defending themselves against claims that they withheld the results of their own research into the effects of passive smoking, tobacco giant Philip Morris International have affirmed that they believe passive smoking is harmful to health (in other words they admit it is harmful, they are merely denying that they knew this before anyone else). Their website (http://www.philipmorrisinternational.com/pages/eng/smoking/Secondhand_smoke.asp) contains a summary of the generally accepted medical view on passive smoking, and a number of useful links. Obviously Philip Morris have legal and political reasons for publishing such information, even if they didn't particularly agree with it, but I just thought doubters might prefer to get the information from a source which could not really be accused of being anti-smoking.

[MartinHarper]

Graham - I don't doubt that passive smoking can be harmful to health, and people have died from passive smoking. However, the evidence I've seen suggests to me that the risk to my health is negligible, likely zero. I'm not a child. I'm not very old. I'm not pregnant. I don't suffer from asthma. My exposure level is minimal - low enough that any risk is theoretical and unproven. I also feel it is important to keep risks in perspective. If I drive further in order to dance at a venue with less smoke, I'm taking a risk from the traffic. If I forgo dancing, I'm taking a risk from lack of exercise.

On the other hand, many people do find cigarette smoke unpleasant, choking, etc, and for some people the risks from passive smoking are at a higher level. So I can completely understand why some people do not tolerate smokers.

[Lynn]

b) Because my risk from passive smoking is negligible, likely zero. Is that why there is a new ad on TV about how harmful passive smoking is? Comparing it to that fact people wouldn't tolerate someone coughing in your face but will put up with smoke which is harming their health? Trying to raise people's awareness of the dangers of passive smoking? Health risks to employees by passive smoking was one of the main reasons why smoking was banned in the Republic of Ireland in bars and restaurants etc. And remember that when you dance you are exercising and therefore breathing in more smoke, than if you were just sitting talking.

[Andy McGregor]

Graham - I don't doubt that passive smoking can be harmful to health, and people have died from passive smoking. However, the evidence I've seen suggests to me that the risk to my health is negligible, likely zero.

What evidence is this? References please. To quote 'evidence' and then fail to credit your source is bad writing, science, etc. Plus, it's evasive. There must be a massive library in that lift, have a read through some of the evidence before you start defending passive smoking as having a risk of 'zero' :mad:

[MartinHarper]

As a side note, given that TVs have been fingered as one of the causes of the obsesity epidemic, with lethal consequences, it would be interesting to find out how the number of people indirectly killed by TVs compares to the number of people indirectly killed by cigarettes.


Health risks to employees by passive smoking was one of the main reasons why smoking was banned in the Republic of Ireland in bars and restaurants etc.

My exposure level to cigarette smoke is several orders of magnitude less than someone spending several hours a day working in a smoke-filled bar. Thus, my risk from passive smoking is negligible, likely zero. Thus, I feel comfortable tolerating smokers. Thus my answer to Diane's implied question.


Remember that when you dance you are exercising and therefore breathing in more smoke

I'm reminded at this point of a study into the health effects of cycling in heavy traffic. If I recall correctly, it concluded that while there was indeed a health risk from engine fumes, and from being run over by idiots in 4x4s, these were outweighed many times over by the health benefits of regular exercise. I find that the air at my local MJ venues is considerably cleaner than the air in commuter traffic.

[Andy McGregor]

As a side note, given that TVs have been fingered as one of the causes of the obsesity epidemic, with lethal consequences, it would be interesting to find out how the number of people indirectly killed by TVs compares to the number of people indirectly killed by cigarettes.



My exposure level to cigarette smoke is several orders of magnitude less than someone spending several hours a day working in a smoke-filled bar. Thus, my risk from passive smoking is negligible, likely zero. Thus, I feel comfortable tolerating smokers. Thus my answer to Diane's implied question.



I'm reminded at this point of a study into the health effects of cycling in heavy traffic. If I recall correctly, it concluded that while there was indeed a health risk from engine fumes, and from being run over by idiots in 4x4s, these were outweighed many times over by the health benefits of regular exercise. I find that the air at my local MJ venues is considerably cleaner than the air in commuter traffic.

One of the tactics used by people who smoke is to remind us of other risks to health. This is a distraction tactic and is contemptible (but no more so than someone who is rude to people who are overweight - no, you are not forgiven, at least not by me, your rudeness was completely over the top and you have shown no contrition whatsoever :angry: ) We are not talking about those risks. We are talking about the risks associated with dancing in a smoky atmosphere. We should not be expected to take that risk - when will the smoking/smoky/smelly organisers who allow smoking in their venues realise how stupid and inconsiderate they seem to anyone who wants to reduce the risk of disease :angry:

[MartinHarper]

Ok, lots of stuff to go through:

I'm not "defending passive smoking". I'm explaining to Diane why I, a non-smoker, am happy to tolerate smokers, as she couldn't understand that
Additionally, I'm not claiming that it "has a risk of 'zero'". I'm saying that the risk to me is, from the evidence I've seen, negligible, likely zero. Other people will have to take their own personal circumstances into account when trying to judge what their own risk level is.
However, you're welcome to see me as the devil incarnate if you like. I won't mind.

----

On evidence
I'm not referring to specific evidence. If you want to read the same stuff I've read, browse around the links on this thread, and sites such as the NHS, ASH, FOREST, govt, etc. Having done that, my conclusion is that the evidence falls roughly into two types.

1) Stuff that says passive smoking is "harmful", but neglects to say how harmful, in what doses it is harmful, and so forth. These are completely useless in making decisions.
2) Much rarer: stuff that quantifies how harmful passive smoking is, at some level of exposure vastly higher than mine: IE, someone working in a smoke-filled bar for several hours a day, or an actual smoker. These don't directly apply to my situation.

The evidence I would like to see would give hard figures on the increased level of risk of being in the same room as a light smoker for a couple of hours, perhaps once a week. I haven't seen any evidence along those lines. If anyone has some, I'd be interested in reading it.

In the absence of such direct evidence, the best I can do is to take evidence in category (2) and try to scale it down to my level. This kind of extrapolation is really bad science, as many things that are harmful at high levels are harmful or even beneficial at low levels. However, it's all I can work with. Whenever I have done this calculation, the resulting risks have been small enough that I have considered them negligible, likely zero. Other people would have to do their own calculation, based on their own level of exposure to smoke, and how risk-averse they are.

----

Consideration of other risks
I do not consider other risks as a "distraction tactic" for the purposes of debate. I consider them so as to inform my own decision on the extent to which, as a non-smoker, I should tolerate smokers. Given that I am not an event organiser, my typical decision is between:

1) Go to MJ event. Risk from passive smoking. Benefit from exercise. Fun.
2) Don't go to MJ event. Benefit from avoidance of passive smoking. Risk from lack of exercise. No fun.

If I were to consider solely the risk from passive smoking, I would stay at home. However, when I consider all the factors, I feel comfortable that the benefits considerably outweigh the risks, so I go. Other people will of course have to make their own decisions, based on their own personal circumstances.

----

To summarise: I, as a non-smoker, tolerate smokers because:

a) I don't find smoke unpleasant, choking, etc.
b) I perceive my risk from smoke to be negligible.

Diane - I hope this answers your question.

[RogerR]

As an ambulance driver full time, I take one guy to Lung cancer clinics regularly He's become a friend over the years, he never smoked but did play in a dance band in smokey dance halls.

Still it amazes me to see "constant oxygen" patients ( cylinder on wheelchair ) still smoking 60 a day. There was an incident where a man was so desperate to smoke he pulled the blanket over his head took the oxygen mask off, and lit the fag, He didnt survive the burns. smoking is so addictive that smokers dont/cant care that it is lethal.