Leading and following issues

[kiwichook]

Recently went to a workshop where it was advised that the ladies were not to interfere when the lead wasn't being given but to remain stationary and just wait.

What I forgot to ask, was what to do when a male doesn't lead effectively and then starts to verbally abuse the lady for not moving. How do you cope with that and how do you explain in a non threatening way to the guy that he gave no clear lead to which way he wanted you to move?

We need some "clever" one-liners that isn't going to result in one's face being done over..:whistle: .

[Thetruth]

Recently went to a workshop where it was advised that the ladies were not to interfere when the lead wasn't being given but to remain stationary and just wait.

What I forgot to ask, was what to do when a male doesn't lead effectively and then starts to verbally abuse the lady for not moving. How do you cope with that and how do you explain in a non threatening way to the guy that he gave no clear lead to which way he wanted you to move?

We need some "clever" one-liners that isn't going to result in one's face being done over..:whistle: .

When I first started to learn latin american I undertook many many private lessons. Often my coach would not react to a led move and just stand there. I would smile and suggest I should actually try and lead. However, I dont think in a social environment that this would always happen if a follow is not moving or responding. Just tell them their lead is confusing and you are not sure of where you are supposed to go or be. Hopefully they will admit they dont lead well. Perhaps suggest you would like to help. If they respond in the negative, then walk off and tell anyone who will listen that the guy cant lead before he tells everyone you cant follow.................... :wink: or ask when is he next appearing on "Dancing with the Stars". Not all guys take to criticism in the positive, just check out the MJ forum in Australia.

[Green-eyed Monsta]

I've heard the same advice in classes....and had a similar response from one of the men. I found smiling and apologising for not knowing what to do was quite effective.
He thinks I'm as thick as a whale omelette and hasn't asked me to dance since....and that's fine with me! :D

[NZ Monkey]

Not all guys take to criticism in the positive, just check out the MJ forum in Australia.Hey! Just watch what you're implying there..... it isn't just Aussie guys that can't take it - it's guys everywhere. I REFUSE to be left out!

Hmmmm, not sure I helped the cause there at all... :na:



I found smiling and apologising for not knowing what to do was quite effective.
If I was in that position this is what I'd do as well. Just let him know you'll need a really clear lead in a way that lets him think you're not accusing him (he is awesome after all :rolleyes: ) of having a terrible lead. If he starts throwing you around and yanking hard after you've done that make your excuses and have a word with the venue manager.

[kiwichook]

Hmmmmm.. the smiling and apologising is fine if you could 'get away with it' but it is difficult when the guy knows that the lady in question has been dancing many more years than they have. So if one was to use that tack in this case, it could either be taken as the lady is being a complete pisstaker, or messing with their mind for the sake of 'control'.

Or it could be viewed as what have you been doing for the past 4 years? Are yer that thick ? And some sort of self preservation does kick in unfortunately at that point..:rofl:

It's a very difficult thing to get right because we want the guys there but we don't want them scared off or become scary people!! And some studio owners aren't much help with a stock standard response of "grow up and deal with it" - :nice:

Surely there's gotta be something out there ?? Like for eg. the line that gets used for guys with bouncy hands ..it gets a laugh and works immediately cos no guy likes to be thought of as owing a yanking hand, aye:wink:

[David Bailey]

What I forgot to ask, was what to do when a male doesn't lead effectively and then starts to verbally abuse the lady for not moving.
I'd normally suggest walking away - but obviously that's not an option in a workshop.

I'd avoid trying to explain to the leader that, duh, he should lead - calling in the teacher, to work through it, is the best option I think.

In fairness, some of us leaders get very irate when we get things wrong, and we tend to take it out on our partners :blush: - it's wrong, of course, but it's not always easy being a leader.


We need some "clever" one-liners that isn't going to result in one's face being done over..:whistle: .
Really, I'd just call the teacher / demo in - that's what they're there for.

For what it's worth, "auto-followers" are just as awkward sometimes. Every class I do, if I get an opportunity, I'll try and isolate the relevant move and lead it - typically by messing around with the routine so that I know the follower isn't just going through the motions, but is actually following my lead. I explain what I want to do first of course - I'm not a complete monster - but it's amazing how many times this approach is met with blank incomprehension...

[happygoldfish]

In the class, it's easy. If my follower is leading me, then I let her, and just before the second time we do it, I smile and say "My turn to lead!" :nice:

That (usually!:() works without any ill-feeling.

So I suggest you pretend he's leading you the first time, and just before the second time, smile and say "Your turn to lead!" :nice:

Even if it makes no immediate physical difference :rolleyes:, he'll certainly get the message that he wasn't leading!

It also has the advantage that it leaves it ambiguous as to whose fault it was. ;)

In freestyle, of course, you can't do that.

I hope your workshopkeeper wasn't intending you to do it in freestyle.

I wouldn't be surprised if a leader gets annoyed when the follower doesn't even make a guess. After all, he's genuinely doing his best, so shouldn't she too? I think in army court-martials that's the offence of "dumb insolence"!

What's the problem with making a guess? If the problem is that you're afraid you'll hit him if you guess wrong, then – no problemo – hit him! :devil: If the problem is that you're afraid he'll hit you, then I agree you should do nothing, look really vulnerable, and say "I was scared!" :blush: – which is true!

If there's no danger, and he's doing his best, then don't say your best, do your best! :nice:

He's your dancing partner, not your bridge partner! :D


:nice: be happy! :nice:

And anyway, who do you prefer, a shy guy who wouldn't hurt a fly, or a berk who jerks? :rolleyes:

[Green-eyed Monsta]

I wouldn't be surprised if a leader gets annoyed when the follower doesn't even make a guess. After all, he's genuinely doing his best, so shouldn't she too? I think in army court-martials that's the offence of "dumb insolence"!


I absolutely agree that the follower should try their best, or at least wiggle to give the leader a bit of thinking space so they can try again, but...


... starts to verbally abuse the lady for not moving...

...verbal (or any other) abuse is not on!

[timbp]

What I forgot to ask, was what to do when a male doesn't lead effectively and then starts to verbally abuse the lady for not moving. How do you cope with that and how do you explain in a non threatening way to the guy that he gave no clear lead to which way he wanted you to move?

We need some "clever" one-liners that isn't going to result in one's face being done over..:whistle: .

And what do we do when a female doesn't follow properly and then starts to verbally abuse the man for not leading?

([And what about a female lead] [And what about a male follower]?)


I hate followers leading themselves. Even when I was an absolute beginner who couldn't lead anything, I hated followers who led themselves. Yes, I can see the argument about keeping a dance going (and I even use that argument myself if it helps my case). But I learned to lead from followers who only followed a lead.
And (though I say it myself), feedback I get is I am a good [even great] lead.

Ladies, please only follow what is led. Any short-term problems are overwhelmed by the long-term effect of having leaders who can lead.

In the last "reverse roles" class I did, I made serious effort to just follow, and I did not move without a lead. I can assure all readers of the thread that women who want to lead in ceroc are also rude to followers who expect a clear lead.

I also found at that class that with a good leader I could follow. I wasn't dancing well (compared with how I dance as a lead), but I was adequately following what Nessa led.

[tsh]

As a lead, I will often ask if my lead is clear if I'm in a class, and I think my partner is able to understand the question. Without some feedback, it is very difficult to tell what is going wrong. In terms of providing feedback, specific and simple seems to work best, so pick on one part of the move at a time.

The original question seems to be much more basic though - how do you teach the guys that they need to lead, and that the dance does not consist of two people watching the stage and copying. The only real option is to wait for a lead, explain if there is a problem, and involve the teacher as soon as possible if there is any confusion. (in a workshop it is easy enough to say you have a problem with the move, and get the teacher to show you how the move ought to be followed - they can then explain that the guy needs to lead properly). If it's a class, find the teacher after the class and ask them to help - if they arn't interested, find another class.

Sean

[JCB]

...what to do when a male doesn't lead effectively and then starts to verbally abuse the lady for not moving.
How about fluttering your eyelashes and saying, "I bet you say that to all the girls" ? :devil: :rolleyes:

[Twirly]

What I forgot to ask, was what to do when a male doesn't lead effectively and then starts to verbally abuse the lady for not moving. How do you cope with that and how do you explain in a non threatening way to the guy that he gave no clear lead to which way he wanted you to move?

We need some "clever" one-liners that isn't going to result in one's face being done over..:whistle: .

In freestyle, I've had the situation where I've been dancing with a usually clear lead, whose style I'm familiar with, and suddenly the lead becomes unclear or confused. I usually just look a bit puzzled, go where I think they want me, smile and say "I'm not quite sure where you wanted me there" - the response, usually, has been "uhm, I'm not sure where I wanted you either!" and a sheepish little grin. They're usually just trying something out, or forgot where they were or something. We laugh and the dance has moved on.

I'm not sure how else you could explain it though - and I guess that some leads are going to take it personally, however clever your one liner is :( best of luck!

[dave the scaffolder]

As men in dancing we are in the minority. if a lead is not clear just explain to the guy that i was not sure what to do there, can we go through it again. Snappy one liners will alienate the guys and women will dance with women forevermore.

Most guys are nervous and a lippy follower will not be danced with again, we all make mistakes so a certain amount of tact must be employed on the part of the follower to nurture the man to be a better dancer, snappy and lippy one liners kills the dance stone dead.

XXX XXX DTS Dave

[kiwichook]

"snappy and lippy one liners kills the dance stone dead"

Yeah but some of which can be delivered in a fun loving humourous way, cos as I've said, the point is not to scare the guys off - it's just being able to master the "art of"....and there could be something out there that someones using, that works a treat, and no one gets hurt or made to feel inferior. Cos we are all there for fun and a bit of a laugh irrespective if dancin' in the southern or northern hemisphere.:nice:

[NZ Monkey]

"snappy and lippy one liners kills the dance stone dead"

Yeah but some of which can be delivered in a fun loving humourous way, cos as I've said, the point is not to scare the guys off - it's just being able to master the "art of"....and there could be something out there that someones using, that works a treat, and no one gets hurt or made to feel inferior. Cos we are all there for fun and a bit of a laugh irrespective if dancin' in the southern or northern hemisphere.:nice:There aren't any silver bullets I'm afraid, and there's no guarantee that what works on one guy will work on the next.

Welcome to the potentially awkward side of social dancing. As much as I hate to say it, without knowing the guy in person it's very hard for any of us to give any good advice other than to go with your own instincts or talk to someone in a position of influence about it and hope they can do something.

[JCB]

...what to do when a male doesn't lead effectively and then starts to verbally abuse the lady for not moving.O.K. , I think I am suffering from some sort of cultural misunderstanding.
I have never met the behaviour you describe! As a beginner (yes, still a beginner- we started at the end of January, but only managed one lesson last month! :() I am just starting to recognise subtle leads, and to distinguish them from sloppy/absent leads, so my following has warranted a lot of exasperated eye-rolling, but has generally been met with generosity and kindness. I am sorry to hear you have met instead with such unpleasant characters! (Does that tend to happen, as you advance? - I hope not!)
<o:p> </o:p>
I have encountered the cold and disdainful stare, the abject refusal to smile or even look your way, and the cynically condescending “helpful suggestion” (eg. “try moving your feet next time” :rofl:) So far as I am concerned, if your dance partner is beyond rude, in fact is downright abusive to you, you are under absolutely no obligation to be kind to him/her, even if you feel it is due to a bruised ego. I am old-fashioned (OK, maybe just old :whistle:), but firmly believe there is no excuse for such poor behaviour. (But neither are you obliged to return the rudeness …unless of course you really, really want to :devil: )
If it was ever bad enough that I wanted an “out” I would say something like, “I’m sorry, I am obviously not at your level” ( I would allow him to think I meant “of dance” but of course, I would be referring to his lower status on the evolutionary scale! :whistle:) and request a change of dance partners, or wait ‘til everyone moved on.
<o:p> </o:p>
Your original question did not seem to me to call for a response advocating tact. But your later posting is different:
...in a fun loving humourous way, cos as I've said, the point is not to scare the guys off - it's just being able to master the "art of"....and there could be something out there that someones using, that works a treat, and no one gets hurt or made to feel inferior. Cos we are all there for fun and a bit of a laugh ...
<o:p>If the lead hasn't been clear, it is likely because the leader does not know how to make it clear, and no amount of light-hearted banter will change that, so it seems to me that what you are asking is how to get a male to admit that he needs help? :rolleyes:
</o:p>
I generally say something like, “I am sorry: I am directionally challenged. How do I know to turn that way at this point? I must be missing something”. If the leader reacts well, but remains unsure, I say I am still having difficulty feeling the lead, and ask my partner if he would mind if I call on the instructor for some help. 9 out of 10 blanche, and say, “Don’t worry, you’re doing fine.” (some would obviously rather die than draw attention to themselves!). If we get the instructor to walk me through it, I add my commentary at the bits my leader was missing (eg. “Ah! There is a gentle nudge there to move me forward that I was missing!” or “wait a minute, this bit is awkward: where does that elbow go?”)
<o:p> </o:p>
You can’t “fix” a leader who does not want to know. There are a surprising number who think that the dance leader’s job is to “signal” a move, and the follower’s job is to recognize the “signal” and execute the requisite move.:eek:
<o:p> </o:p>
One of the classes I go to is small and friendly, and the instructor encourages us to speak up in class if we are having difficulties. I guess it says something about me, that I am one of the few who do. (It is usually something that I am missing, or unconsciously anticipating, that can be cured quickly; and I can’t understand why, since I am a learner, I shouldn’t admit that I need some help.) But other folks don’t seem to feel that way; so keep that in mind, before you copy my method!
There aren't any silver bullets I'm afraid, and there's no guarantee that what works on one guy will work on the next.:yeah:

[kiwichook]

Thanx guys for all the input a few good ideas to bear in mind. It was interesting to hear what people thought and even more interesting to note the degree of surprise registered when one brings it out in the open and says that this sort of behaviour does go on. Believe it or not. Perhaps this behaviour is not so prevalent in the Northern Hemisphere, :rofl:

[Magic Hans]

I've heard the same advice in classes....and had a similar response from one of the men. I found smiling and apologising for not knowing what to do was quite effective.
He thinks I'm as thick as a whale omelette and hasn't asked me to dance since....and that's fine with me! :D


Nice one!!! Sometimes a flutter of the blue eyes, and pretending to be blonde does the job [although takes a bit of something ... pride swallowing? humility? guts? dunno]!!! :innocent: [doesn't work for me though!] :angry:

[Magic Hans]

How about fluttering your eyelashes and saying, "I bet you say that to all the girls" ? :devil: :rolleyes:

Another nice response!!! Immediately (attempts to) make light of the situation, and deflects the abuse!!

I regularly (mis)interpret abuse as praise!!! It certainly results has quizzical results!!