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Sporty Jeff
28th-June-2007, 04:08 PM
Hi everyone,
Just wondered if anyone out there dances Ceroc at venues without taxi dancers and if so how successful are they? Ceroc Central are dropping their taxi dancers at the end of this month.:sad: Personally I think our beginners will be losing out big time. We are going to have a "Buddy" instead starting from September, who,s job is to spend more time with any new male dancers, any thoughts?
Ex Taxi Dancer:angry:

Twirly
28th-June-2007, 04:15 PM
So who is going to run the review classes?

What differs in this "buddy" system from the taxi dancer system, apart from the women not being encouraged? And do you still get any benefits for your troubles? I assume that this also means that it's mainly followers who will be "buddy's"?

I was very grateful to the taxi dancers when I started, even as a follow. They were kind, patient and helpful. If you dance with other leads, they don't have to be (although a lot are) as that's not their job. If you get brought on more rapidly by the taxi's as a follow, you get to dance with the better leads more quickly, and give them less of a frustrating time, so they are more likely to ask you to dance.

David Bailey
28th-June-2007, 04:15 PM
Just wondered if anyone out there dances Ceroc at venues without taxi dancers and if so how successful are they?
Never seen one - but I've only been to a couple of dozen venues, you need to ask a proper traveller like Trampy...


Ceroc Central are dropping their taxi dancers at the end of this month.:sad:
Interesting - did they give any reasons?

I assumed that Taxi Dancers were mandatory at Ceroc venues, that they were part of the essential structure of lessons - certainly, that's what the ceroc.com website implies.


Personally I think our beginners will be losing out big time. We are going to have a "Buddy" instead starting from September, who,s job is to spend more time with any new male dancers, any thoughts?
Yeah, "buddy" is a really naff name.
Oh, and the CC logo reminds me of the Batsignal.

Apart from that, I've got nothing :grin:

Trouble
28th-June-2007, 04:27 PM
When me and my sister started dancing 4 years ago, we went to a Jive venue and they did not have taxi dancers. They used to go through the first class again a second time which was more helpful than anything.

When we went to Ceroc, we found the taxi dancers quite clickly and annoying to be honest.

So i think loosing taxi dancers is not a bad thing but a positive move and concentrating on men is even better cause its them that need to have more attention at the end of the day. Women just need to learn to follow which if lead well by the man happens pretty naturally.

:flower: :flower: :flower:

Sporty Jeff
28th-June-2007, 04:29 PM
The Buddy yuk what a sad name! will take the refresher class, the idea is to try and retain more men. I think we will lose a lot of lady beginners tho as without Taxi,s to dance with what are they 2do? Sorry 4 slow reply but still finding my way around this site:blush:

Trouble
28th-June-2007, 04:31 PM
The Buddy yuk what a sad name! will take the refresher class, the idea is to try and retain more men. I think we will lose a lot of lady beginners tho as without Taxi,s to dance with what are they 2do? Sorry 4 slow reply but still finding my way around this site:blush:

buddy is cheesy yes but the men will love it. women generally get looked after by the men in general i find but women do not approach men so much. Welcome to the site by the way Sporty.xx

Sporty Jeff
28th-June-2007, 04:34 PM
Really sorry to hear that. I dont think we are clicky in Letchworth. Does Dave still Taxi? have not seen him 4 ages must be love!

Sporty Jeff
28th-June-2007, 04:35 PM
thank you

David Bailey
28th-June-2007, 04:38 PM
The Buddy yuk what a sad name! will take the refresher class, the idea is to try and retain more men.
Retaining more men is certainly not a bad idea - but I'm not sure what the exact differences are, if the Buddy is going to teach?

Is the Buddy supposed to have a 1-2-1 relationship with new men?* Or just to dance and coach new men specifically?

And - possibly a silly question - is the Buddy therefore going to be generally female?

* And does anyone else find that kind of creepy in a stalker-y way?

MartinHarper
28th-June-2007, 04:40 PM
Just wondered if anyone out there dances Ceroc at venues without taxi dancers?

Sure. Ceroc Cheltenham is a local venues that doesn't have formal taxi dancers. I've been to others (and several non-Ceroc places too).


If so how successful are they?

Cheltenham was packed to the rafters a couple years ago, but the last few times I've been there it's been merely full. Very successful night, in one of the largest venues I've been in.


I think we will lose a lot of lady beginners tho as without Taxis to dance with what are they to do?

Umm....
Dance with non-taxis?

Sporty Jeff
28th-June-2007, 04:41 PM
Ceroc Cenral actually employ their taxi dancers or should I say did employ their dancers!

Trouble
28th-June-2007, 04:44 PM
Umm....
Dance with non-taxis?


I agree with you Martin for a change..... women do get asked by men very easily or women can learn from men easier than men can learn from women in a standard freestyle.

When i was taxiing, i did tend to take on men one on one and give them extra special attention and i found this paid off. I also used to get approached at freestyles from basic dancers as they remember me and ask for more advice. Only downside i think will be for the buddy who will be approached all over even when not working which is often the case for taxi dancers.:flower:

Sporty Jeff
28th-June-2007, 04:45 PM
yes spot on, while male taxi,s can apply its really the female Buddies required.

Andy McGregor
28th-June-2007, 04:51 PM
And - possibly a silly question - is the Buddy therefore going to be generally female?I shall apply immediately and see if my application is rejected on the basis of my sex :devil:

ducasi
28th-June-2007, 04:53 PM
I agree that beginner men need more attention than beginner women, but I don't think they should be abandoned.

There needs to be a revision class – maybe though if this was taken by a teacher, then this plus buddies for the guys would be an overall improvement...

Is this related at all to Ceroc {Somewhere} putting their taxi dancers on contracts and changing their name to something else? DavidY where are you?

David Bailey
28th-June-2007, 04:53 PM
yes spot on, while male taxi,s can apply its really the female Buddies required.
Boy, Buddy is such a naff name isn't it.

From what you say, it sounds like CC are focussing their efforts on increasing the numbers of male attendees. Which obviously sucks from your point of view I'm afraid :flower: - as not many beginner men want to dance with men - but I can see the sense of that as a policy.

But it's still a naff name - I think, if I were a woman, the name itself would put me off applying :sick:


I shall apply immediately and see if my application is rejected on the basis of my sex :devil:
What, not getting any you mean? I think that's called a fringe benefit :wink:

Sporty Jeff
28th-June-2007, 04:54 PM
Retaining more men is certainly not a bad idea - but I'm not sure what the exact differences are, if the Buddy is going to teach?

Is the Buddy supposed to have a 1-2-1 relationship with new men?* Or just to dance and coach new men specifically?

And - possibly a silly question - is the Buddy therefore going to be generally female?

* And does anyone else find that kind of creepy in a stalker-y way?
It certainally makes me uncomfortable so no more taxi-ing or Buddy-ing 4me:tears:

Sporty Jeff
28th-June-2007, 04:59 PM
I shall apply immediately and see if my application is rejected on the basis of my sex :devil:
They have worded things quite cleverly "male Buddies have a role to play" very interesting:blush:

Trouble
28th-June-2007, 05:00 PM
They have worded things quite cleverly "male Buddies have a role to play" very interesting:blush:

wonder what that is.?

Trouble
28th-June-2007, 05:04 PM
I shall apply immediately and see if my application is rejected on the basis of my sex :devil:

why is your sex that bad Andy, did hear something via the grapevine. :love: :na: :D :respect:

TA Guy
28th-June-2007, 05:05 PM
Buddies? Yuck.

I knew one fairly large franchise that had separate names for female and male taxi dancers. Can't remember the female name, but the males were called Gigolos.

We call them 'Coaches'.

killingtime
28th-June-2007, 05:57 PM
yes spot on, while male taxi,s can apply its really the female Buddies required.

Are the female buddies leading in revision or are they going to say "now this beginner will take me through the move to demonstrate... no not like that"?

It doesn't seem like a great idea to me, the taxis are as much there to provide encouragement and someone to dance with for both sexes. They seem like a good idea to me.

David Bailey
28th-June-2007, 07:06 PM
Are the female buddies leading in revision or are they going to say "now this beginner will take me through the move to demonstrate... no not like that"?
Presumably that's "the role for male buddies" - being either the demo or the teacher at that point?


It doesn't seem like a great idea to me, the taxis are as much there to provide encouragement and someone to dance with for both sexes. They seem like a good idea to me.
They've worked pretty well for 25 years. On the other hand, there've been more women than men at classes for the past 25 years, so maybe trying something new is worthwhile.

Come on people - we can't simultaneously have a go at Ceroc for being monolithic and unchanging, then start to diss a new concept every time one comes up...

It's not an immediately silly or poor idea for dancers - not like the DJ thing, for example - and if it helps even out the numbers, that's got to be a good thing, surely?

DavidY
28th-June-2007, 10:37 PM
Is this related at all to Ceroc {Somewhere} putting their taxi dancers on contracts and changing their name to something else? DavidY where are you?Who, me?!
I did start a thread a few months ago about formal employment of taxi dancers, and it is the same franchise (Ceroc Central). Back then there wasn't anything in the stuff we taxis were sent about changing the names of taxi dancers although "venue managers" did become "venue hosts".

As Sporty Jeff says we were employed, but only for a few months- I look forward to receiving my P45 in the post sometime soon. :rolleyes: Some taxis continued as unpaid volunteers but I suspect all Buddies will be employed.

As far as I can tell (I'm just another ex-taxi dancer so know nothing more than was in the letter we were all sent), the differences between what Ceroc Central (CC) do now* and the proposed Buddy system are: It will be an auditioned job
Buddies are supposed to focus on retaining new men - in particular the "floating voter" (some people know they hate MJ and never return, and some know they love it and will come back regardless - it's the ones in between that are supposed to be the focus)
There will be compulsory, paid, training (CC tried to organise some for Taxis but it never got off the ground).
There will be fewer Buddies than Taxis - default is one per venue per night, compared to 3 or 4 Taxis at some places
Better uniform
The benefits seem to be worse than they were for taxis (pay is the same and we used to get half-price entry to CC venues but this seems to be stopping, even for the new Buddies).
*I know some of these probably already happen in some other franchises

It will be interesting to see how a male Buddy will help new men without dancing with them - the letter does explicitly say that you can apply if you're male, but that men aren't expected to dance with other men.

Apparently the name is supposed to be an analogy with "Dive Buddies".

NZ Monkey
28th-June-2007, 11:19 PM
Come on people - we can't simultaneously have a go at Ceroc for being monolithic and unchanging, then start to diss a new concept every time one comes up...

I'd never even heard of a Taxi dancer before moving to London. We don't have them at all down in Auckland and things seem to run pretty smoothly down here without them. I know the head venue here is packed to overflowing every Friday night at least.....

ducasi
28th-June-2007, 11:31 PM
I'd guess the male buddies are just there to "buddy" with the new guys, sympathise with them about how hard it was when they started, but tell them how easy it became after a few more weeks and to say things like "look at all these women asking me to dance now!".

Who knows, it might just work...

Magic Hans
28th-June-2007, 11:33 PM
:angry: :angry: Well Pooo to you all!!! :angry: :angry:

I like the term 'Buddy'! It has a ... errrrr .... friendly feel to it. :hug:

... having said that ... it'll be interesting to see how it works in this context! :sick:


Ian :flower:

NZ Monkey
28th-June-2007, 11:38 PM
And - possibly a silly question - is the Buddy therefore going to be generally female?

* And does anyone else find that kind of creepy in a stalker-y way?I am reminded of a religious cult in NZ that was disbanded years ago called the "Children of God" (IIRC).

They used a recruitment technique they called "flirty fishing". Pretty much the same idea as a buddy but with 15 year old girls and some extra fringe benefits for the recruits.

I'll leave it to the reader to figure out why they were disbanded..... they managed to last quite a long time though. Decades I think :eek:

Whitebeard
29th-June-2007, 12:00 AM
Sure. Ceroc Cheltenham is a local venues that doesn't have formal taxi dancers. I've been to others (and several non-Ceroc places too).


You know, Martin, I'd never really noted that. But, yes, at the present time that is so. However John and H work the floor and the ladies are well catered for. Much less so the men.

A little more than two years ago a lady, who was certainly a Taxi at nearby Gloucester, used to take the review class. Later it was usually the franchisee, Bryden, who took the review class and what a character he is ! I partook of this class far more than six weeks !

Was that lady ever a Taxi at Cheltenham; I do not recall. Certainly at the present time beginner men have to fend for themselves.




Cheltenham was packed to the rafters a couple years ago, but the last few times I've been there it's been merely full. Very successful night, in one of the largest venues I've been in.

(Snipetty doo dah, snipetty yay, my oh my what a wonderful day.)

Numbers do vary from week to week of course, but this continues to be a hugely popular class.

One thing occurs to me however. I get the impression that, more often than not, there is a larger surplus of ladies at Cheltenham than at Gloucester, which suggests that there may well be a disparity in retention rates for men as opposed to women at these two neighbouring events. Many, like me, attend both nights.

onkar
29th-June-2007, 12:47 AM
As far as I can tell (I'm just another ex-taxi dancer so know nothing more than was in the letter we were all sent), the differences between what Ceroc Central (CC) do now* and the proposed Buddy system are:
It will be an auditioned job
Buddies are supposed to focus on retaining new men - in particular the "floating voter" (some people know they hate MJ and never return, and some know they love it and will come back regardless - it's the ones in between that are supposed to be the focus)
There will be compulsory, paid, training (CC tried to organise some for Taxis but it never got off the ground).
There will be fewer Buddies than Taxis - default is one per venue per night, compared to 3 or 4 Taxis at some places
Better uniform
The benefits seem to be worse than they were for taxis (pay is the same and we used to get half-price entry to CC venues but this seems to be stopping, even for the new Buddies).

Another change is that all new demos will be volunteers only (they will still pay the existing ones).

Onkar

David Bailey
29th-June-2007, 08:56 AM
Another change is that all new demos will be volunteers only
:rofl: So all current demos have been conscripted? I always suspected something like that - hmmm, "Flirty Cerocing", huh? :D

cat
29th-June-2007, 09:20 AM
Not to keen on these plans myself. I remember how helpful the taxi dancers were when i started and i think it is a shame to loose that. I go dancing by myself and i think it helped that there were people who specifically came and asked shy beginners to dance. It has to be said that some of the more advanced dancers prefer not to dance with complete beginners. While taxi dancers arent essential to the sucess of a venue i think it helps. And as ceroc tends to focus upon the beginner-intermediate group i think it is especially important for them to have taxi dancers.

I also dont think the plans are practical. Having spoken to the taxi dancers at hyde they find they need four of them to cover a large venue. Im not convinced that one dancer can cover all the beginners. It would also be difficult for one dancer to run the revision class on their own. As taxi dancers currently work for free i fail to see the logic behind reducing their numbers. Taxing is also a method to get people interested in teaching ceroc.

And finally i disagree to focus on the males, surely this is rather sexist. Women need as much help as men in learning to dance. Its heard to learn if you dont get a chance to dance with people who can lead. If we have more woman than male maybe this reflects a general tendency of dancing rather than not being able to retain men. Possibly a better strategy would be to advertise ceroc rather than rely on word of mouth where women encourage women to come dancing. We might also get some younger dancers in, as there is a big shortage in the north.

Lory
29th-June-2007, 09:58 AM
And finally i disagree to focus on the males, surely this is rather sexist. What worries me is, if a couple arrive together, with no previous experience of partner dancing, they can't be expected to understand 'why' the man has a buddy and the woman doesn't :confused:


Women need as much help as men in learning to dance.
I don't think women do need as much help from a 'buddy/taxi' I think they learn a lot by simply dancing with lots of different people, men can't..

BUT the newby couple, won't realise that and if you get one 'female buddy' concentrating more on the man, there's a danger it could be misinterpreted.:devil: (the words jealousy and insecurity spring to mind)

Obviously from a viewpoint of hindsight... we know there's valid reasons for helping men more and the intentions are 'good' but as i said before, I don't think the newby dancers will have any concept of the inherent problems we're trying to overcome :(

Andy McGregor
29th-June-2007, 10:07 AM
We might also get some younger dancers in, as there is a big shortage in the north.We'll ship a few lorry loads up to you. In a world where all things are relative, the more young, good-looking guys we can ship up North, the younger and better looking I become :waycool:

Twirly
29th-June-2007, 10:17 AM
It will be interesting to see how a male Buddy will help new men without dancing with them - the letter does explicitly say that you can apply if you're male, but that men aren't expected to dance with other men.

Apparently the name is supposed to be an analogy with "Dive Buddies".

Forgive my cynicism, but might this just be to get around sex discrimination legislation? If they only made the position available to women, they could get into trouble.

David Bailey
29th-June-2007, 10:19 AM
And finally i disagree to focus on the males, surely this is rather sexist. Women need as much help as men in learning to dance.
Sorry, but no, they really really don't.

The leader has a much steeper learning curve than the follower; therefore the leader needs more help to get to the same level. I've re-discovered this with AT recently :tears:


Its heard to learn if you dont get a chance to dance with people who can lead.
Which, surely, means that any plan to get more and better leaders is a good thing? :confused:


If we have more woman than male maybe this reflects a general tendency of dancing rather than not being able to retain men.
Yes - and one possible reason for this, is that is's harder for the leaders. It really, really is. So, again, any plan targetting resources at helping leaders may be a good idea.


Possibly a better strategy would be to advertise ceroc rather than rely on word of mouth where women encourage women to come dancing. We might also get some younger dancers in, as there is a big shortage in the north.
Ceroc do indeed spend a lot of time and effort advertising - marketing, busking, etc. They definitely don't rely on word-of-mouth.

As for getting younger dancers in - that's a separate topic (and one that's been discussed before a few times!)

David Bailey
29th-June-2007, 10:22 AM
Forgive my cynicism, but might this just be to get around sex discrimination legislation? If they only made the position available to women, they could get into trouble.
Possibly - that occurred to me also. We're both cynical :)

However, IANAL, but I believe partner-dancing is one of those areas where that legislation doesn't really apply (Franco's notorious opinions to the contrary) - otherwise, you wouldn't be able to organise any gender-controlled events, for example.

Twirly
29th-June-2007, 10:39 AM
Possibly - that occurred to me also. We're both cynical :)

However, IANAL, but I believe partner-dancing is one of those areas where that legislation doesn't really apply (Franco's notorious opinions to the contrary) - otherwise, you wouldn't be able to organise any gender-controlled events, for example.

True - and that occurred to me as well. It's probably a grey area. However, gender controlling the participants of an event and gender balancing your employees is a bit of a different thing. And I expect that the laws around employment would be more definitive and tougher to fight.

Where's Barry when you need him?!

JiveLad
29th-June-2007, 10:56 AM
For me it is a backward step for 2 reasons:

1. The Ceroc experience should be consistent across the country. If I go to Ceroc in John O'Groats it should be the same recognisable format/structure as Ceroc in Lands End.

2. The naming for me is weak and smacks of 1970's America. 'Taxi' immediately strikes home and is quite appropriate.

If the taxis are trained more - then great! That is a different issue.

I will contact Ceroc Central directly about this.

David Bailey
29th-June-2007, 11:19 AM
Where's Barry when you need him?!
That's a situation which luckily I have yet to encounter... :)

ducasi
29th-June-2007, 11:27 AM
For me it is a backward step for 2 reasons:

1. The Ceroc experience should be consistent across the country. If I go to Ceroc in John O'Groats it should be the same recognisable format/structure as Ceroc in Lands End.

...
Should innovation be banned? Shouldn't individual Ceroc franchises try out new ideas?

If this is a success, expect to see it implemented "from Land's End to John O'Groats".

If it is a failure, expect to see the return of taxis...

Twirly
29th-June-2007, 11:35 AM
It does sound to me as if they might be trialling a new system to see how it goes. If it works then great, if it doesn't then hopefully they'll revert to the old system, or take the good bits of each into a new one.

It's always easier to see disadvantages than potential benefits when we are on this side of an experiment.

MartinHarper
29th-June-2007, 11:49 AM
True - and that occurred to me as well. It's probably a grey area.

I'm not a lawyer, but that's my understanding. As I recall, the exemptions that might apply are:

1. "Modern Jive is a competitive sport". Exemption intended for athletics and suchlike.
2. "Men dancing with men would cause emotional distress". Exemption intended for changing room attendants and suchlike.

It'd probably come down to who had the better lawyers. I can see arguments being made on both sides and I'm not aware of any precedents.

Having said that, if the role of a buddy is simply to welcome new men and make them feel included, then in theory a man could do that just as well as a woman. It'd all be about social skills and networking.

David Bailey
29th-June-2007, 11:54 AM
Should innovation be banned? Shouldn't individual Ceroc franchises try out new ideas?
Indeed. That's kind of the idea of a franchise model in the first place, it combines freedom to innovate with central support / guidelines. Not that I know anything about business of course, not having an MBA and all...

(Although I'm surprised that "having Taxi Dancers" isn't on the "mandatory" list - or perhaps it is, and this is an experiment with something different.)

I'm very very tired of seeing people greet all change as "bad" - and you get a different set of people who whinge about Ceroc being Borg Central. I remember the same type of comments coming out when Ceroc announced their entry into the weekender market... :rolleyes:

under par
29th-June-2007, 12:02 PM
Personally I think it is an innovative idea. I have long gone on about organisers giving priority treatment to new leaders as leaders are the bread and butter that keep all venues going without them there is no partner dancing.

I would like to see this initiative given a proper trial to see if it works and we can get more leads staying in dance to provide the dance satisfaction to all those lovely ladies stood at the side of the dance floor at most venues.

I accept that the loss of their job by taxi dancers is quite grave.... but lets give this initiative a good chance to work and see if it might work.

At least some one is trying something different.

MartinHarper
29th-June-2007, 12:28 PM
I have long gone on about organisers giving priority treatment to new leaders as leaders are the bread and butter that keep all venues going without them there is no partner dancing.

For a flavour of past discussions on prioritising leaders, here's a thread under par started on the subject:
http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/lets-talk-about-dance/12763-improving-male-dancer-stock.html
(ok, technically a moderator started it)

Whitebeard
29th-June-2007, 01:17 PM
What about the Bunny, oops, sorry, Buddy T shirts ?

Keefy
29th-June-2007, 01:47 PM
At least some one is trying something different.
:yeah: As a new dancer/lead I can comment from recent first hand experience that the current implementation of taxi dancers isn't really working. The idea is good, but it doesn't go far enough and it's not wide ranging enough.

The main problem that I have seen in several Ceroc venues is that the implementation is reactive rather than proactive, you have to go and seek out a taxi and ask. The number of new venues that I have been to and just been ignored is too high if retention is the aim. Here I find that my local independents are much better, in all of the independent venues I have been approached and chatted to by the operator, one of the instructors, i.e. by SOMEBODY!

Although people may not like the 'Buddy' name I think that it conveys better the way that successful clubs (not just dance clubs) greet and retain new members. They befriend them, talk to them, encourage them - and it's not just female buddies who can do that. So for 'Buddy' read 'New Faces Friend'. People who are tasked with pro actively approaching and befriending new faces. So when you see that new face don't just ignore them, react with them. Talk to them, explain a bit about what happens, get a promise of a dance later (i.e. create an obligation on them to keep them around), then later on make sure you follow it up.

Twirly
29th-June-2007, 02:07 PM
you have to go and seek out a taxi and ask.

I can quite see why this might happen, and also that it is a problem, however it must be pretty difficult for taxi dancers to know who is new and who isn't, with changing faces every week (maybe they should be forced to sit that memory test on the other thread as part of the selection criteria!).

They have a good system at Greenwich (at least the idea is good, I wasn't a beginner there so don't actually know how well it works). They have a big "taxi rank" sign and beginners are asked to go there if they want to dance with a taxi dancer. Makes it much easier for the taxi's to find them, and if they don't want to dance with a taxi, then they can go off elsewhere.

David Bailey
29th-June-2007, 02:32 PM
They have a good system at Greenwich (at least the idea is good, I wasn't a beginner there so don't actually know how well it works). They have a big "taxi rank" sign and beginners are asked to go there if they want to dance with a taxi dancer.
I think that's quite common - I've seen it at a few London venues.

Trouble
29th-June-2007, 02:49 PM
Sorry, but no, they really really don't.

The leader has a much steeper learning curve than the follower; therefore the leader needs more help to get to the same level. I've re-discovered this with AT recently :tears:


Which, surely, means that any plan to get more and better leaders is a good thing? :confused:




well stepped on my earlier point DJ. :rolleyes:

David Bailey
29th-June-2007, 02:58 PM
Who said that? :confused: :whistle:

Trouble
29th-June-2007, 03:10 PM
Who said that? :confused: :whistle:

:D :D :D :D :rofl: :rofl: your wasted, you should be in stand up :rofl: :rofl: :D :D

bigdjiver
29th-June-2007, 03:15 PM
...it must be pretty difficult for taxi dancers to know who is new and who isn't, with changing faces every week...Ceroc Central have little pink beginner stickers so that everybody can identify a beginner.

Keefy
29th-June-2007, 03:18 PM
They have a big "taxi rank" sign and beginners are asked to go there if they want to dance with a taxi dancer. That's a system that I've seen at one of the local franchises, but again it's reactive rather than pro active. How many people have you actually seen use it? Nobody expects anybody to know every new face in a venue, in the larger venues it gets even more difficult, but actively approaching new faces is something that should be tried IMHO.

DavidY
29th-June-2007, 04:05 PM
Ceroc Central have little pink beginner stickers so that everybody can identify a beginner.:yeah:
It works pretty well too - most beginners wear them and it makes (er.. made) taxiing a lot easier.

David Bailey
29th-June-2007, 04:23 PM
Ceroc Central have little pink beginner stickers so that everybody can identify a beginner.
Really? I thought you were joking.

Are you joking? I'm so gullible sometimes...

bigdjiver
29th-June-2007, 04:57 PM
No joke. Works well.

DavidY
29th-June-2007, 06:32 PM
Really? I thought you were joking.

Are you joking? I'm so gullible sometimes...They are called "First Mover" stickers. A few years ago they used to be white with red (and black) writing. Pink is easier to spot though.

See the middle of the page on this CC website link (http://www.ceroccentral.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=50&Itemid=90). You'll have to trust us on the colour.

For some reason I thought they were done nationally at some point in the past - I'm probably wrong about that though.

DavidY
29th-June-2007, 06:39 PM
I was interested when I googled for the Pink Sticker thing (http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=%22first+mover%22+sticker+ceroc&btnG=Search&meta=cr%3DcountryUK%7CcountryGB) (for the post above) to come across this learned paper (http://www.bcuc.ac.uk/PDF/SCPE_Dialogue_Volume_6_Issue_1_November_2004.pdf).

It seems to discuss around page 5 how good the taxi dancer system is and its relevance to HE learning.:eek:

EricD
7th-July-2007, 06:44 AM
Surprisingly, perhaps, the beginners love the pink stickers: they even wear them to say "be gentle" when they first go to the intermediate lessons. Last week one asked if we could do orange stickers for 'new intermediates'! Sometimes they get a "you're in the wrong lesson" response instead ...

I think (we) male taxis had it easy - females were expected to 'swing both ways' ! I'm not sure what male buddies will do - would it be breaking trade secrets if any female taxis were to enlighten us ?
How do you teach males to lead ? There's precious little help that can be given in the lessons from the stage, IMHO.
Should I start another thread ? Is there an old one? I'll check out the "Male Stock" one!

EricD
7th-July-2007, 06:51 AM
Maybe the gender imbalance was due to the male taxis, so we can redress the balance by eliminating them ?

Just me being cynical !
I am a very modest person really ...

FirstMove
7th-July-2007, 09:56 PM
Maybe it's slightly tangential to this thread, but in my travels in Ceroc-dom, virtually nothing is common to every venue.

A few things I can think of:-

0-4 Taxi dancers (typically fewest taxis at most popular venues)
Taxi-rank banner, or not
First-Move stickers, or not
Bar, or not
Free water, or not
Intermediate "Classic Move" in every class, or not
Intermediate move based on one of that night's beginners' moves, or not
3 or 4 beginners' moves
3 or 4 intermediate moves
Beginners' commandments banner, or not
Ceroc is a "French form of Jive" or "A fusion of Salsa or Jive"
Dance starts with drawing a "C", or not
Discount schemes for regulars, or not
All moves taken straight from movebook, mostly made up on the night and all things in-between
Beginner Comb has 2 or 3 wiggles, or a body roll, or a push spin or about a dozen other non-standard variations
Separate teacher and DJ, or not
Beginner First move has hands between partners on step back, or by ladies right waist...
Specific front of house staff, or taxi dancers
Adverts for other franchise's freestyles, or not

....I could go on all night....

Posters on this forum have survived whatever system their local venue inflicts on them long enough to become forum members. We aren't representative of the people who quit in 2 weeks.

Serendipity
30th-July-2007, 01:07 AM
I'm late into this thread I know.

However, as a female beginner I found the male dancers at one local venue to be arrogant and unsupportive of me and my beginner sticker. They absolutely did not want to dance with me, and when I put them on the spot, they made sure I never asked to dance with them again.

The saving grace was the revision class taken by three taxis, one of the male taxis realised how demoralised I was after the beginner class. At the start of the freestyle he insisted I have one dance with him before I left ceroc forever.

Fortunately for me (although not perhaps for the regular male dancers) he was absolutely brilliant and made sure that I went home with a smile on my face longing for the next class.

After my experience of the men at the original venue, I chose to relocate to a venue further from home (run by a different franchise, although that meant nothing to me) and was thrilled to find many helpful taxis, both male and female. Also the regular male dancers genuinely wanted to encourage and dance with new women - sometimes with gritted teeth, but they tried really hard.

Sadly as the venue I chose is run by CC who have abandoned their fantastic taxis, new ladies going there won't be as lucky as I was and may well decide never to return.

Perhaps it will reach the point where there are men sitting on the sidelines while the few remaining women struggle to dance with men who have not been taught to lead.

Having experienced the shambolic situation since the demise of the taxis, with beginners (both male and female) being left high and dry and trying to manage with one person doing the revision class and being expected to dance with everyone, if this works it will be nothing short of a miracle.

IMO taxis are an essential part of ceroc for beginners and if anyone asks me where to go to learn ceroc (and many people do!), I'll be directing them to a franchise with Taxis.

Wouldbe
30th-July-2007, 10:10 AM
I'm wondering if this issue is related to what is going on in CerocKent at the moment. As taxis we've been told that for Pub.Liab.Insurance reasons, we're not allowed to do a review class as if we were teachers. The structure of the class is going to have to change - no one's quite sure how - and at one stage they were going to cut the number of taxis, though this has since been revoked. Also, the benefits to taxis will be sharply curtailed to just free entry to the 'home' venue. My thoughts:


Should innovation be banned? Shouldn't individual Ceroc franchises try out new ideas?

If this is a success, expect to see it implemented "from Land's End to John O'Groats".

If it is a failure, expect to see the return of taxis...

Agreed for many reasons - there is always room for improvement and I think a lot of franchises have probably become complacent with their relative success and have not done enough to tighten up where there are unsuccessful areas. I do however think in the CC situation, and probably in Kent too, the goodwill of loyal and supportive taxis will expire and if the original system were to return, they will have a tougher job doing so and this may set them back further than they were before.


Although people may not like the 'Buddy' name I think that it conveys better the way that successful clubs (not just dance clubs) greet and retain new members. They befriend them, talk to them, encourage them - and it's not just female buddies who can do that. So for 'Buddy' read 'New Faces Friend'. People who are tasked with pro actively approaching and befriending new faces. So when you see that new face don't just ignore them, react with them. Talk to them, explain a bit about what happens, get a promise of a dance later (i.e. create an obligation on them to keep them around), then later on make sure you follow it up.

All these things were expected of taxi dancers anyway. I'd be blind or stupid to say that these things were definitely already happening, because of course in places they're not. But certainly the good taxis are the ones who do exactly this anyway. Certainly in CK there have been some inappropriate choices of taxi but I think that it should be the job of the review process, the teacher and the franchisee to pick up on this and ask them to change what is wrong and if they don't then to resign. If you're not doing the job properly that you've been enlisted to do, then you have no right to receive the privileges that go with it. Don't scrap the current taxi system altogether purely on this basis.

The buddy name is naff in my opinion and one's friendship shouldn't be forced on people. Not every beginner wants that. Being friendly is different IMO to befriending someone. For me it just conjures up images of fake, cheesy grins, patronisation and being oblivious to the unrequited invasion of someone's personal space!


I agree with you Martin for a change..... women do get asked by men very easily or women can learn from men easier than men can learn from women in a standard freestyle.

Agreed again. Retention of men is crucial to continued success and I'm certain more could be done. But the beginner women should have a point of contact to ask an individual question about style, footwork, technique etc and if the female buddy is running around trying to help/dance with/chat to the male beginners she's not going to have time for the females, especially if she's on her own. Equally, the teacher should be working the floor and the experienced dancers will probably be out there dancing so who then does a slightly timid female beginner then approach?


When i was taxiing, i did tend to take on men one on one and give them extra special attention and i found this paid off. I also used to get approached at freestyles from basic dancers as they remember me and ask for more advice. Only downside i think will be for the buddy who will be approached all over even when not working which is often the case for taxi dancers.:flower:

Yes, this does already happen, and again as a taxi dancer I'm happy to be asked to dance by anyone and try to ask lots of different people when I'm off-duty too. I do like to dance with more experienced dancers as well though and I think being a "buddy" psychologically puts you under more pressure and makes the boundary between on- and off-duty more blurred.

EricD
3rd-August-2007, 04:10 PM
As taxis we've been told that for Pub.Liab.Insurance reasons, we're not allowed to do a review class as if we were teachers. The structure of the class is going to have to change - no one's quite sure how - and at one stage they were going to cut the number of taxis, though this has since been revoked.

Interesting - Ceroc Central Taxis became employees in Jan, so the employer wouldn't be accused of evading 'taxable benfits in kind' when giving free admission / Admit One tickets. A side-effect would be to clarify the situation re Employer's Liability insurance, and probably the liability towards paying customers. Maybe that was a factor in the decision to drop the Taxi system ?

It would encourage the employer to consider what happens in the refresher class - training plans for Taxis did not come to pass before we changed direction again, unfortunately.

I would have thought the review class would be a good place to mention floorcraft and good safe technique to beginners - thereby reducing the risk ! (I don't claim to have done this myself - just thinking aloud!)

On the other hand, maybe if we don't teach technique then we can't be held responsible for what happens ?
A bit like not clearing snow from the path/pavement outside your house, in case anyone slips and claims you didn't clean it well enough ?
I can't believe it would apply to classes, though - driving lessons, ski instructors ...
Learning to do it safely is a large part of why people attend lessons !

Any Legal Experts on nonfeasance/misfeasace/malfeasance out there ?
Malfeasance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malfeasance)
(Of course Scotland may be different.)

As far as I can tell, many Ceroc Central venues have decided not to risk the experiment of running without Taxis or Buddies in July & August - informal local contingency plans are in place !)

David Bailey
3rd-August-2007, 04:17 PM
Interesting - Ceroc Central Taxis became employees in Jan, so the employer wouldn't be accused of evading 'taxable benfits in kind' when giving free admission / Admit One tickets.
Out of interest, how much did / do they get paid then?


A side-effect would be to clarify the situation re Employer's Liability insurance, and probably the liability towards paying customers. Maybe that was a factor in the decision to drop the Taxi system ?
Don't "buddies" get paid then? I assumed they did...


As far as I can tell, many Ceroc Central venues have decided not to risk the experiment of running without Taxis or Buddies in July & August - informal local contingency plans are in place !)
I heard that some people have volunteered to pick up the slack, by taking refresher classes, in some venues. They get free entry - which initially sounds pathetic, except that it actually works out as a much better rate of "pay" (£7 for 30 minutes) than taxi-ing (£14 for 2 hours). Weird but true.

DavidY
3rd-August-2007, 06:17 PM
Don't "buddies" get paid then? I assumed they did...I've not applied to be one, but my understanding is that the pay arrangements will be very similar to the way taxis were paid.

I was also rather surprised this week (when reading Induction processes at work) to find my employer also has the concept of Buddying:
WHAT IS ‘BUDDYING’?

‘Buddying’ is a way of creating a friendship and establishing a relationship where an experienced person invests time, know-how, interpersonal skills and effort to enhance a new member of staff’s growth, knowledge and skills. Through a buddy system, the experienced member of staff, supports the new starter by making them feel welcome and explaining how things work.
So it's maybe not such an unusual concept after all...

Lynn
3rd-August-2007, 07:41 PM
I was also rather surprised this week (when reading Induction processes at work) to find my employer also has the concept of Buddying:So it's maybe not such an unusual concept after all...So does my employer - and its exactly the same role as you described in your quote. I've just recently been 'buddy' to a new member of staff.

David Bailey
3rd-August-2007, 09:22 PM
I've not applied to be one, but my understanding is that the pay arrangements will be very similar to the way taxis were paid.
Which was? (assuming you're not talking about 1 or 2 Admit 1s?)

DavidY
4th-August-2007, 01:43 AM
Which was? (assuming you're not talking about 1 or 2 Admit 1s?)Taxis could either work on a volunteer basis (free entry the night you were taxiing, no pay or Admit Ones, and also an opportunity to claim travelling expenses), or be paid. Hours 19:30-22:15, at a rate not vastly above minimum wage.There was also a crew discount (half price entry to Ceroc Central venues) but I think this may only have been available if you were paid rather than volunteering.

I believe Buddies will be very similar but the hours are only until 22:00. I'm not sure if the crew discount will apply - I understand it's replaced by something slightly less generous.

EricD
4th-August-2007, 01:48 AM
... the pay arrangements will be very similar to the way taxis were paid

Which was? (assuming you're not talking about 1 or 2 Admit 1s?)

taxi-ing (£14 for 2 hours).
:whistle:
... monthly in arrears ...
NCVO - National Minimum Wage rate (http://www.ncvo-vol.org.uk/askncvo/index.asp?id=242)
7:30 - 10:15 pm ?

Lory
9th-August-2007, 01:46 PM
I recently went to a Salsa class and was suprised by the way it was run.. firstly, the beginners class was 'after' the intermediates, which I thought was very odd but in a way, I could see the benefits, as the more experienced dancers joined in to help the beginners.

Also, 'the class' was well trained, they 'knew' that after every single run through, they had to move on one, the teacher didn't even have to say anything :really: :respect: The class moved on 'fast' and we did loads of repetition, adding layers of teaching points and styling each time! Both teachers on stage had equal imput, which was great, as it gave the followers things to think about too!

But the thing I was really impressed with was, during the class, instead of having TAXI dancers, they had 'spotters', these people are experienced dancers, who stand round the edge and watch everyone. If they notice someone struggling, they step inthere and then and give help, (the partner does have to stand out but, as the class moves on so fast, they hardly have to wait at all) the spotter stays with them till they have grasped it, then step out again.. it works extremely well! :worthy:

Edit - I'm not sure if the spotters were officially recruted or just very helpful experienced dancers? There were 4 in a class of about 50!

Lynn
9th-August-2007, 01:57 PM
But the thing I was really impressed with was, during the class, instead of having TAXI dancers, they had 'spotters', these people are experienced dancers, who stand round the edge and watch everyone. If they notice someone struggling, they step inthere and then and give help, (the partner does have to stand out but, as the class moves on so fast, they hardly have to wait at all) the spotter stays with them till they have grasped it, then step out again.. it works extremely well! :worthy:

Edit - I'm not sure if the spotters were officially recruted or just very helpful experienced dancers? There were 4 in a class of about 50!I did this in one of our local intermediate classes last week. There were a few extra ladies so rather than add to the number I sat out and watched. I saw a dancer I know really struggling with a move so when the ladies were moving round I stepped in to help him a bit and did this a few times, with the promise to go over it again with him after class. I was also able to see who else was struggling and offer them a bit of help afterwards.

But this was all dancers I know and who I know would be OK with me offering help. I wouldn't want to do that with people I didn't know unless I was doing so in some sort of 'official' capacity.

Lory
9th-August-2007, 02:11 PM
But this was all dancers I know and who I know would be OK with me offering help. I wouldn't want to do that with people I didn't know unless I was doing so in some sort of 'official' capacity.

I know what you mean....

last night for example, I was at WCS and one of the guys was doing something wrong, I was almost tempted to take him out of the line and help him, then step us both back in again, so as not to interfere with the flow of the class but like you, ones never sure how the 'help' will be perceived... I agree, its very different if your there in an official capacity

Lynn
9th-August-2007, 02:17 PM
I know what you mean....

last night for example, I was at WCS and one of the guys was doing something wrong, I was almost tempted to take him out of the line and help him, then step us both back in again, so as not to interfere with the flow of the class but like you, ones never sure how the 'help' will be perceived... I agree, its very different if your there in an official capacityFortunately I know a lot of our guys pretty well and they do tend to come and ask me for help going over the intermediate moves after the class, so I know I can offer assistance. without it being taken the wrong way.

David Bailey
9th-August-2007, 02:30 PM
I recently went to a Salsa class and was suprised by the way it was run.. firstly, the beginners class was 'after' the intermediates, which I thought was very odd but in a way, I could see the benefits, as the more experienced dancers joined in to help the beginners.
Assuming that's the dancematrix one, they do all their classes that way - salsa, AT, and ballroom. I know as I've done them all ( :) ) - and they've been doing that format for many years. I went to their salsa classes in Enfield some 6-7 years back, they were doing that then as well.


But the thing I was really impressed with was, during the class, instead of having TAXI dancers, they had 'spotters', these people are experienced dancers, who stand round the edge and watch everyone.
Interesting - they don't have those for the other dance forms...


Edit - I'm not sure if the spotters were officially recruted or just very helpful experienced dancers? There were 4 in a class of about 50!
Hmmm, spotters might well work as well / better than individual taxi dancers - depends how it's implemented of course. If the implementation were anything like as ham-fisted as the "buddies" implementation seems to be, then it'd be a nightmare.

DavidY
9th-August-2007, 06:47 PM
My understanding from talking to someone who's becoming a Buddy is that they won't do the Beginners class in rotation and they will indeed be working as "Spotters", standing outside the class and looking for people struggling.

David Bailey
25th-September-2007, 03:23 PM
Have the Buddy things started now then?

How are they working out?

Sporty Jeff
25th-September-2007, 05:27 PM
Have the Buddy things started now then?

How are they working out?
It was meant to start in September but was delayed until October. Now Phil has sold out no one seems to know what is happening. I have been doing the re-fresher classes up to now

Sporty Jeff
25th-September-2007, 05:38 PM
Ceroc Central classes are £8 a night not £7:mad:

David Bailey
26th-September-2007, 07:57 AM
It was meant to start in September but was delayed until October. Now Phil has sold out no one seems to know what is happening. I have been doing the re-fresher classes up to now
Hmmm, that's a bit pants innit?

I thought the idea of the buddy system had some real potential, it's a shame it's not been implemented - and even worse that there's now nothing in its place :(

bigdjiver
26th-September-2007, 09:21 AM
Hmmm, that's a bit pants innit?

I thought the idea of the buddy system had some real potential, it's a shame it's not been implemented - and even worse that there's now nothing in its place :(The buddy idea was Phil's own, and not likely to appeal to the new owner. That, and many other actions, have presumably been on hold due to the sale.

Bluey
26th-September-2007, 07:28 PM
The buddy idea was Phil's own, and not likely to appeal to the new owner. That, and many other actions, have presumably been on hold due to the sale.

Buddy name has been tried before in Surrey, girls didnt like, they felt the guys were only interested in diving!!!!: