The Andy and Franck Technicolor Popcorn show [Archive]

Gus

20th-June-2007, 07:56 PM

You are being extremely generous to your own classes Andy. As someone once said before, I'm looking forward to seeing the hundreds of excellent dancers you've trained with your technique come forward.

Giving people the technique they need, when they are thirsty for it is the best way to grow the number of great MJ dancers. Forcing your own technical prejudice on wide-eyed beginners is just self-indulgent narcissism.

Though Franck makes somes reasonable comments, the feedback I've had (is this heresay?) is that the standard of Rocsters is head and shoulders above the other venues that my mate has visited in that area. Whether this is due to Andy's teaching style or the fact that his music has attracted the better dancers is a matter for further debate. ALso, DJ's comment re this teaching approach possibly being commercialy non-viable in the long run is also up for debate. However, whereas Franck and DJs comments are based on 'what may be', my friends comments are based on 'what is'.

Just to head off the usual 'heresay' accusations, the reason I've not named my friend is bacuase she isn't a forumite, nor do I have the right to name her without her consent. sufficeth to say shes is (probably) the best Blues dancer in the N West, a Ceroc Scotland export and does not give praise easily.

Franck

20th-June-2007, 08:01 PM

Though Franck makes somes reasonable comments, the feedback I've had (is this heresay?) is that the standard of Rocsters is head and shoulders above the other venues that my mate has visited in that area. Whether this is due to Andy's teaching style or the fact that his music has attracted the better dancers is a matter for further debate. This is not the issue, I'm sure Andy has very good MJ classes.

His claims about teaching technique, footwork, posture, and more are however far-fetched. I base my comments on his seemingly flawed 'grasp' of technique as evidenced on this forum.

Gus

20th-June-2007, 08:08 PM

His claims about teaching technique, footwork, posture, and more are however far-fetched. I base my comments on his seemingly flawed 'grasp' of technique as evidenced on this forum.Wel ... he wouldn't be the first to make exaggerated claims ... but, the fact remains that the dancers at his venues seemed to have a better grasp of fundamentals than a Ceroc night. One day I may find myself down in the deep dark south and see for myslef but in the emantime I've got an informed opinion of someone I trust who hath seen the promised land etc etc

While we are on the subject, anyone wasnt to volunteer that the dancers at their local MJ club DO have a good grap of postures, T&C, balance etc ... because I can't remember the last time I danced where this was true

David Bailey

20th-June-2007, 08:29 PM

Though Franck makes somes reasonable comments, the feedback I've had (is this heresay?)
Is that like a cross between heresy and hearsay? :innocent:
I like it :clap:

ALso, DJ's comment re this teaching approach possibly being commercialy non-viable in the long run is also up for debate.
I didn't quite say that - what I am saying is that any large-scale technique-based dance teaching method will be almost impossible to achieve.

Technique classes are small - they have to be to allow corrections and observations. You can't have 60 people in three rows, with you on the stage, and expect to impart serious technique that way - it just doesn't work. So any "standard-model" MJ class will be limited in what can be achieved that way.

Of course, some classes are better than others - but the limitations are still there. Hence my comment that it's impossible to focus on technique in a regular MJ class.

Hmmm, this reminds me of the whole "Assessing teacher levels" debate of a while back, I think I might resurrect that one...

straycat

20th-June-2007, 10:58 PM

*MEEEOOW*

Franck 1, AndyMcG 0.

pass on the popcorn please :devil:

I only have the toffee-flavoured stuff - will that do? (if you don't like it, we can start throwing it at the combatants)

Caro

20th-June-2007, 11:13 PM

I only have the toffee-flavoured stuff - will that do? (if you don't like it, we can start throwing it at the combatants)

*reach for the toffee-stuff...*

Do we get bonus points if we reach them in between the eyes ? :devil:

Andy McGregor

21st-June-2007, 02:24 PM

This is not the issue, I'm sure Andy has very good MJ classes. The students at our classes are on a journey. Some of them are near the start of that journey, others have been travelling for some time and are more seasoned travellers. When I look around our classes and dances I see a complete mix of levels. Some good, some nice and some who need a lot of work.

I'm really pleased that Gus has heard good things about our nights. We've worked very hard at getting the standard up without putting people off coming back. It is my belief that dancers who go through our weekly teaching process will be better dancers than those who attend a weekly Ceroc class. However, it is also my belief that we will lose more dancers because Ceroc, as it is taught to beginners, is less complex and will be seen as easier to learn.

His claims about teaching technique, footwork, posture, and more are however far-fetched. I base my comments on his seemingly flawed 'grasp' of technique as evidenced on this forum.

I'm not sure I have a "flawed" grasp of technique. I didn't make anything up, I learnt from others. I'm neither a self-taught dancer nor a self-taught teacher. I obtained both sets of skills at the feet of people I respect. And I've seen very little technique tips posted by Franck that I disagree with. I disagree with Franck over the timing of the introduction of basic technique and Franck disagrees with me about the ladies basic footwork being RLRLRLRL. I had no idea there were other things I've said about technique that Franck thinks are "flawed" :confused:

Well ... he wouldn't be the first to make exaggerated claims ... but, the fact remains that the dancers at his venues seemed to have a better grasp of fundamentals than a Ceroc night. One day I may find myself down in the deep dark south and see for myself but in the meantime I've got an informed opinion of someone I trust who hath seen the promised land etc etcThe funny thing is that, apart from on here, I make no claims at all about teaching technique. Our strapline is "for friendly dancers", nothing about technique (however, I'm thinking about finding a way to insert the word "smooth" - suggestions welcome). I don't advertise that our MJ is better than other kinds of MJ or that we teach more basic technique than other classes. I advertise that we teach MJ and our promotion talks about what MJ is. I teach the version of MJ that I was taught by Nigel & Nina. I will never understand the music as well as Nigel and I will never know as much about dancing as Nina, but I pass on what they taught me and, in the case of Nigel, continuing to teach me.

The other place I learn a great deal is on here. In among all the rubbish is a wealth of dance information. People have new and novel ways of looking at things and sometimes a post will leap out at me with it's total brilliance. I've even learnt things from posts by Martin Harper (please don't tell him :wink: ).

I live in fear that somebody like Gus will come along to one of our classes and find them lacking. We only run 4 nights a week and 2 of them are very much at the beginner stage, one of them is still receiving 2 beginners lessons rather than the normal format because everyone is so new. If Gus came to that night he would not be impressed with our dancers - especially a couple of the guys :tears: But, our other two nights started like this and now get a complete mix of abilities - one of these nights has now outgrown the venue and I'm not sure what to do next.

One comment on this thread was that we might attract the better dancers from elsewhere because we play more interesting music. That is, very much, not the case. We seem to get poor dancers from other classes as I'd mentioned on another thread: they come because they've been told that they will learn more at our classes. We do get a few people coming for the freestyle who have been dancing for years and have never had a lesson from us. I would find it an embarassment if somebody thought we'd taught them to dance - however, they are nice guys and mostly do no harm.

To get back on topic. The version of MJ that we teach is very much like WCS without the &s and with a few walkaround type moves added in. We teach slotted moves slotted and walkaround moves in a neat circle. We teach footwork and we teach tension and compression like they do in WCS. Is it WCS in disguise? No, it's MJ. They are two different dances with different footwork/timing.

I do have a question for Ceroc though. What exactly do you teach? Is it Modern Jive or is it Ceroc? I don't think I've seen Ceroc mention that it teaches Modern Jive, but I could be wrong as I don't see much of their literature.

David Bailey

21st-June-2007, 02:37 PM

I do have a question for Ceroc though. What exactly do you teach? Is it Modern Jive or is it Ceroc? I don't think I've seen Ceroc mention that it teaches Modern Jive, but I could be wrong as I don't see much of their literature.
Leaving aside that there's no-one called "Ceroc" to answer your question, I don't believe Ceroc actually define the dance they teach.

To quote from the ceroc.com website (http://ceroc.com/nonmembers/):

The style of dance taught at a CEROC class is a fusion of Jive & Salsa which is easy to learn, sociable, fun, and can be danced to any style of music.
Yeah, great, very useful... :rolleyes:

It then goes on to say (http://www.ceroc.com/nonmembers/whatisceroc.htm):

This fusion of Jive and Salsa is easy to learn, sociable and fun, and can be danced to any music with a regular beat.
Again, as useful as a chocolate kettle.

If you want a definitive answer, I suggest you mail Mr Ellard :)

Oh, and:

I live in fear that somebody like Gus will come along to one of our classes
Well, who wouldn't?

Andy McGregor

21st-June-2007, 05:07 PM

Leaving aside that there's no-one called "Ceroc" to answer your question, I don't believe Ceroc actually define the dance they teach.

To quote from the ceroc.com website (http://ceroc.com/nonmembers/):

Yeah, great, very useful... :rolleyes:

It then goes on to say (http://www.ceroc.com/nonmembers/whatisceroc.htm):

Again, as useful as a chocolate kettle.I think I found it on the above link.

Since then Ceroc has developed its own unique style of Modern Jive which is easy to learn and great fun. From this single sentence we can conclude that Ceroc is the company and it's product is "its own unique style of Modern Jive". I'm pretty sure that Ceroc's version of MJ is unique. But how can Ceroc be sure enough to put that in writing?

Gus

21st-June-2007, 06:23 PM

I live in fear that somebody like Gus will come along to one of our classes and find them lacking. I hardly think what my opinion of class is of much consequence as I'm not one of 'Names'. Wait till you are teaching a class and a Ceroc champ walks in and watches you .... had it twice now (Will and Phil & Yuko) .... guarunteed to make your insides turn to jelly and make lucid speech impossible.... :tears: :tears:

David Bailey

21st-June-2007, 07:29 PM

From this single sentence we can conclude that Ceroc is the company and it's product is "its own unique style of Modern Jive". I'm pretty sure that Ceroc's version of MJ is unique. But how can Ceroc be sure enough to put that in writing?
Can you provide the URL, Andy? I couldn't find the words "Modern Jive" anywhere, and I looked (I don't question you, I just want to see it in context).

MartinHarper

21st-June-2007, 07:31 PM

Can you provide the URL, Andy? I couldn't find the words "Modern Jive" anywhere, and I looked (I don't question you, I just want to see it in context).

Ceroc.com (http://www.ceroc.com/nonmembers/whatisceroc.htm)

Under "Background".

David Bailey

21st-June-2007, 07:45 PM

Ceroc.com (http://www.ceroc.com/nonmembers/whatisceroc.htm)

Under "Background".

Oh yes - "nonmembers" - cunningly spotted sir :clap:

The full quote is:

James Cronin originally devised Ceroc in 1980 to incorporate dance lessons with a fun night out. Since then Ceroc has developed its own unique style of Modern Jive which is easy to learn and great fun.
Of course, that still doesn't definitively state that "Ceroc is the name of the dance style"...

Andy McGregor

22nd-June-2007, 08:26 AM

His claims about teaching technique, footwork, posture, and more are however far-fetched. I base my comments on his seemingly flawed 'grasp' of technique as evidenced on this forum.I don't know why I let Franck get away with this :confused:

Franck has, in this single sentence, set himself up as a judge of my dance knowledge. And, in saying so, a font of knowledge about dance technique. To think of himself as otherwise would be hypocritical.

Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment that you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get.Let's judge Franck's credentials to judge people's knowledge of dance technique.

When we're considering Franck's credentials as a judge of other's dance knowledge we must consider what and how he teaches. Very much as he has done with me (he started it, Mum :tears: ) There is a single thing that is often the first bit of "dance technique" that new students hear. It is that thing alone that shows a lack of understanding of dance techniqe and the fundamentals of lead and follow. At the very least it shows a lack of clear thinking. That single thing is also something that marks Ceroc's brand of MJ as not being WCS. My opinion is that single thing is a basic flaw that affects the way people dance MJ. What is that thing? I hear you ask. Wait for it. Let's say it all together...

.. SEMI-CIRCLE TO THE LEFT AND BOTH STEP BACK :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

N.B. Of course, I believe that Franck actually has the dance knowledge to see how worthless and counter-productive the semi-circle is. But saying so does nothing for popcorn sales :wink:

My own guess is that Franck teaches the semi-circle because Ceroc tell him that he must. I can think of no other reason why somebody who knows so much about dance technique would do so :innocent:

p.s. I am not claiming that I know more than Franck about dance. I am a part-time dance teacher with a day job in pharmaceuticals - I see myself as a student who is learning all the time to stay ahead of my own students. Franck is a full-time dance teacher and should know more than I do. Except, on this occasion, he does not :devil:

David Bailey

22nd-June-2007, 11:52 AM

I don't know why I let Franck get away with this :confused:
Because you're a warm, caring and tolerant human being? :innocent:

Franck has, in this single sentence, set himself up as a judge of my dance knowledge. And, in saying so, a font of knowledge about dance technique. To think of himself as otherwise would be hypocritical.
Well, I think he is a font of knowledge, franckly :)

He's clearly one of the top MJ teachers in the country, at least in the area of lead-and-follow (for example, see this recommendation (http://www.mjda.org/forum/showpost.php?p=4875&postcount=6)).

My opinion is that single thing is a basic flaw that affects the way people dance MJ. What is that thing? I hear you ask. Wait for it. Let's say it all together...

.. SEMI-CIRCLE TO THE LEFT AND BOTH STEP BACK :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Rubbish.

The "basic flaw that affects the way people dance MJ" is the way MJ is taught in regular classes. 100+ people in the class, 4 rows, teacher on stage with microphone. It's surely not a coincidence that dances with steeper learning curves are always taught in a totally different way? It's also not a coincidence that workshops are typically limited in numbers to 30, and that raved-about classes are always small size classes?

Given that constraint, I believe it's impossible to focus on technique beyond a certain level. For you, for Franck, or anyone for that matter. That's why MJ classes don't produce great dancers - the basic structure of a regular class doesn't allow it. And 99% of classes are in this format.

Focussing on form issues like particular footwork or semi-circles is irrelevant - a good dancer will ignore these constraints. But MJ classes don't produce good dancers, and that's the real problem.

Gus

22nd-June-2007, 02:05 PM

But MJ classes don't produce good dancers, and that's the real problem.The odd thing though is that some good dancers seem to naturally emerge. There is a localish club where the teacher and DJ (one and the same) is genrally rated as one of the worst on this plaent. The men are uniformally appalling ... HOWEVER, there are at least 4 really good female dancers there who have been predominantly taught by the teacher :confused: :eek: How is that possible??

David Bailey

22nd-June-2007, 02:15 PM

Andy McGregor

22nd-June-2007, 04:36 PM

Well, I think he is a font of knowledge, franckly :):rofl: VG have some rep.

Rubbish.

The "basic flaw that affects the way people dance MJ" is the way MJ is taught in regular classes. 100+ people in the class, 4 rows, teacher on stage with microphone. It's surely not a coincidence that dances with steeper learning curves are always taught in a totally different way? It's also not a coincidence that workshops are typically limited in numbers to 30, and that raved-about classes are always small size classes?

Given that constraint, I believe it's impossible to focus on technique beyond a certain level. For you, for Franck, or anyone for that matter. That's why MJ classes don't produce great dancers - the basic structure of a regular class doesn't allow it. And 99% of classes are in this format.

Focussing on form issues like particular footwork or semi-circles is irrelevant - a good dancer will ignore these constraints. But MJ classes don't produce good dancers, and that's the real problem.This would be true if it weren't for the fact that the semi-circle is slavishly taught in the smallest of MJ classes.

I've got to admit that I used to teach the semi-circle in our beginners classes (but never in intermediate). The reason I taught the semi-circle to beginners was because, at the time, Nigel Anderson recommended it. The reason he gave was that beginners do not have the technique to lead their partner into the required step back and that beginner followers do not have the technique to follow the lead. So the semi-circle is a signal to the lady that the guy is about to start dancing and that she should step back. It is not a lead in terms of tension and compression - IMHO you might as well say "step back".

I have subsequently found that dancers in any size class understand the connection required for lead and follow if you spend some time going through it at the start of the lesson. I think it's because you have a class of mixed abilities and the people who have already got the feel for tension & compression pass on that feeling to the others. At least this is what I've found at our classes. However, I recently guested at a "class down the road" nobody in the class had the feeling for tension and compression and it made teaching the beginners lesson a lot more difficult.

I think that David is correct that the size of the class is what limits the teaching of technique. However, it is no excuse for teaching bad technique, and that is what I think the semi-circle represents. IMHO it is at the root of every unnecessary hand bounce you see on an MJ dance floor.

One thing I'm not sure about is what DJ is saying. Is he saying that the semi-circle is correct technique. Or is he saying that it's bad technique but you have to teach it in big classes? Or is he saying something different altogether?

David Bailey

22nd-June-2007, 04:41 PM

I think that David is correct that the size of the class is what limits the teaching of technique. However, it is no excuse for teaching bad technique, and that is what I think the semi-circle represents. IMHO it is at the root of every unnecessary hand bounce you see on an MJ dance floor.
I think you're obsessing over stuff again...

One thing I'm not sure about is what DJ is saying. Is he saying that the semi-circle is correct technique. Or is he saying that it's bad technique but you have to teach it in big classes? Or is he saying something different altogether?
I'm saying I don't really care. Neither do I really care about footwork on the first move. No conceivable teaching of either of these will make MJ dancers good dancers, so I don't think either is worth obsessing over. They're both questions of form, not technique, so they're not important.

Big-picture-man, that's me.

Martin

22nd-June-2007, 05:03 PM

From Andy....
That may be the approach that Ceroc take, but it's not the approach of all MJ. We teach footwork, posture, etc from day 1. I'm not in the business of letting people develop bad habits and then getting them to pay for workshops and private lessons to have them corrected.

You are being extremely generous to your own classes Andy. As someone once said before, I'm looking forward to seeing the hundreds of excellent dancers you've trained with your technique come forward.

I have no doubt you are teaching technique and footwork in your classes, or at least trying to. Whether you have enough of an understanding of these techniques to successfully teach them is something you have yet to convince me of. Pretending (and fooling your students) that you have all the answers just doesn't cut it.

Giving people the technique they need, when they are thirsty for it is the best way to grow the number of great MJ dancers. Forcing your own technical prejudice on wide-eyed beginners is just self-indulgent narcissism.

This seems harsh, unless you have seen Andy teach, it is hard to comment.

I have seen you teach Franck, and you teach well, in the "Ceroc" style. :cheers:

I guess Andy is saying he teaches more footwork and posture, than the normal "Ceroc" style.

If this is so, all power to him.. it might be harder to retain beginners, but it could make those who stay better dancers...:respect:

Andy McGregor

22nd-June-2007, 05:29 PM

I'm saying I don't really care. Neither do I really care about footwork on the first move. No conceivable teaching of either of these will make MJ dancers good dancers, so I don't think either is worth obsessing over. They're both questions of form, not technique, so they're not important.I'm not especially bothered about the footwork for the first move. I'm especially bothered about all footwork. The first move is the one I like to use as an example because everyone knows that you have to step back ladies right on beat 5. What the first move does require is a lot of correct technique to lead and follow properly. It's full of the basics of MJ. However, my favourite move of all time is not the first move: it's the travelling return. This is the building block for so many other moves - and, yes, I am obsessed about the travelling return. I could teach it for hours :wink:

If this is so, all power to him.. it might be harder to retain beginners, but it could make those who stay better dancers...:respect:I'm not sure it is harder to retain beginners. But only because I don't know what the retention rate is for Ceroc.

And I'm not sure we end up with great dancers. I think we end up with dancers who are better than they might otherwise have been. But, I think, becoming a great dancer requires more than I'm offering in a week night class, or even a workshop. What I am proud of is that our dancers are mosly smooth in their execution of Modern Jive.

I agree with Martin that the teaching of correct dancing from day one makes the dance seem harder. And that seeming harder might result in the loss of more beginners. This is a risk I've been taking for some time and our numbers go up each week. However, the more successful we get the more I feel like it's all a house of cards and could come tumbling down at any time.

Oh, and I keep hitting the ball over the net but I'm not getting my serve returned. Maybe Franck is working out how to defend the semi-circle :devil:

ducasi

22nd-June-2007, 05:35 PM

... the semi-circle ... IMHO it is at the root of every unnecessary hand bounce you see on an MJ dance floor.
I would love to hear your reasoning for this.

Ceroc use the semicircle at the start of patterns in class. Beginners use it at the start of dances. How does that cause people to mark the beat by bouncing their hands?

IMHO, bouncy hands are due to beginners picking up bad habits from more experienced dancers.

MartinHarper

22nd-June-2007, 05:42 PM

Oh, and I keep hitting the ball over the net but I'm not getting my serve returned. Maybe Franck is working out how to defend the semi-circle :devil:

I suspect he's going for dignified silence.

Lazy Dave

22nd-June-2007, 06:16 PM

If I may join in with this debate…

Andy referred to every dancer being on a journey – very true, I wrote something about this on my club’s forum a while back to help people to have an understanding of other dancers views and opinions.
But as teachers we are also on a journey and our teaching ability, in theory, grows as we travel along that journey. So I guess a large organisation like Ceroc has to promote a style that teachers of differing abilities can deliver relatively successfully, hence ‘the semi-circle’. :flower:
Teaching ‘connection’ isn’t particularly easy but once you understand a) the concept and b) the differing abilities of the students in your class you can ‘start them off on the right road’, because once that little bridge has been crossed then you can give structure to the rest of your dance i.e. footwork, frame, slot, smoooth look and the ability to dance to more than one ‘thump, thump’ beat! :nice:
(will we lose more dance virgins in the first few weeks by mental overload? Maybe, but name one MJ club which doesn’t have a ‘turnover’ of customers…) :confused:

It’s one thing for small organisations to teach ‘technique’, it’s quite another thing for an organisation the size of Ceroc to be able to… well, it would mean training up a few more wiser heads rather than prettier ones maybe? :devil:
Also, a large organisation would have to decide and police what their basic principles to be taught are, example; what foot to step back on for a First Move.

Also, independents have the luxury of being able to look at something and make an informed decision to change it, large franchise operations can not, they have to teach their company’s way, whether that be right or wrong.

So if I may try to pull these two great gladiators apart by pointing out the different angles you’re both coming from:
Andy has a small one (dance organisation!) and I believe Franck has a large one (although I’ve never met him) and perhaps get you to both see things through each other’s eyes, you’ll find that you’re both right!

Simple, isn’t it? :flower:

Franck

22nd-June-2007, 06:45 PM

This seems harsh, unless you have seen Andy teach, it is hard to comment.

I have seen you teach Franck, and you teach well, in the "Ceroc" style. :cheers:

I guess Andy is saying he teaches more footwork and posture, than the normal "Ceroc" style.

If this is so, all power to him.. it might be harder to retain beginners, but it could make those who stay better dancers...:respect:It was harsh, but you misunderstood me, I wasn't saying Andy shouldn't teach all the above, he says he does, and I believe him. I suspect we both (and many others) try to incorporate more technique from the outset. I questioned his grasp of technique based on yet another tirade saying Ceroc was bouncy, yanky and stepping on the wrong foot. The few technical debates Andy has joined in have demonstrated to me that he has learnt a few rules from great teachers / dancers (at least Nigel) and is repeating them parrot-like very loudly, during his classes and on here. Unfortunately, not all the rules are accurate or the full picture. This might not be a big issue, but if something is repeated enough, many people might start believing it (like the RLRLRLRL footwork). All it takes for misinformation to spread is for good teachers to remain quiet. Unfortunately, challenging Andy is like fighting windmill, so few remain who have the energy.

Oh, and I keep hitting the ball over the net but I'm not getting my serve returned. Maybe Franck is working out how to defend the semi-circle :devil:

I suspect he's going for dignified silence.Ah, if only! :blush: My parents are over from France this week-end so I have little time to dedicate to this fascinating popcorn-fest.

So if I may try to pull these two great gladiators apart by pointing out the different angles you’re both coming from:
Andy has a small one (dance organisation!) and I believe Franck has a large one (although I’ve never met him) and perhaps get you to both see things through each other’s eyes, you’ll find that you’re both right!Thank you for trying but you make an artificial distinction. Ceroc is a large organisation, but because we are collection of smaller franchises, we retain a large degree of independence and initiative. We are all able to trial new ideas and concepts, and all benefit from success. We are also able to share our teaching experience and for example are currently working on CPD training for teachers which is what makes me so optimistic about the future. If only a handful of teachers are able to teach proper technique, we're fighting a losing battle, but if that handful can teach the rest of the CTA graduates then we become a tidal wave of good technique.
I know Andy is trying to train more teachers, but again, what can really be achieved in one week-end with Andy?
The CTA hasn't been perfect but is still miles ahead in that respect. In the next couple of years, I expect the CTA training to progress in leaps and bounds, way beyond anything else available.

As for the Semi-circle, I genuinely believe it is useful and does no harm. I also understand enough about frame, connection and arm tone to know that, without latching on a quick, easy-to-mock prejudice. A few years back I wrote my reasoning on the semi-circle when DavidB asked. He seemed satisfied with my answer then, so, Andy, I'll let you read it again here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/intermediate-corner/1880-draw-not-draw-semi-circle.html).

Minnie M

22nd-June-2007, 07:10 PM

........./big snip/...I'll let you read it again here.........
Great thread (seriously) :clap:

(also loved this bit)

..........I love re-surrecting old threads.

Franck.
:yeah:

I miss DavidB :tears:

Raul

22nd-June-2007, 07:12 PM

Sorry guys, I cannot resist quoting this:

Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies.
Friedrich Nietzsche

This is my way, show me your way, there is no THE way.

David Bailey

22nd-June-2007, 07:34 PM

The few technical debates Andy has joined in have demonstrated to me that he has learnt a few rules from great teachers / dancers (at least Nigel)
Did he learn from Nigel? Wow - he kept that quiet.

Thank you for trying but you make an artificial distinction. Ceroc is a large organisation, but because we are collection of smaller franchises, we retain a large degree of independence and initiative. We are all able to trial new ideas and concepts, and all benefit from success. We are also able to share our teaching experience and for example are currently working on CPD training for teachers which is what makes me so optimistic about the future. If only a handful of teachers are able to teach proper technique, we're fighting a losing battle, but if that handful can teach the rest of the CTA graduates then we become a tidal wave of good technique.
Hmmm... I dunno about this. By it's nature, Ceroc has to have some restrictions, standardisation and consistency is its USP.

So, for example, I think you'd have problems if you wanted to change the beginners' class to incorporate only 2 moves and 20 mins of technique - but Andy could decide that's a good thing to do, and implement it immediately.

Similarly, I think it's very difficult to persuade anyone that teaching technique gives a good ROI - if you're just in it for the money, then it's difficult to justfiy the investment in training teachers to teach technique. A lot of franchisees just won't bother listening to any new ideas, as I know from experience :sad:

what can really be achieved in one week-end with Andy?
OK, I'm gonna need serious therapy now. :sick:

A few years back I wrote my reasoning on the semi-circle when DavidB asked. He seemed satisfied with my answer then, so, Andy, I'll let you read it again here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/intermediate-corner/1880-draw-not-draw-semi-circle.html).
This is shaping up to be a proxy fight between DavidB and Nigel :rofl:

well, it would mean training up a few more wiser heads rather than prettier ones maybe? :devil:
Have you seen Franck? :D

Franck

22nd-June-2007, 07:55 PM

Hmmm... I dunno about this. By it's nature, Ceroc has to have some restrictions, standardisation and consistency is its USP.

So, for example, I think you'd have problems if you wanted to change the beginners' class to incorporate only 2 moves and 20 mins of technique - but Andy could decide that's a good thing to do, and implement it immediately.Standardisation yes, but as I say we are all allowed to develop trials and pilot schemes. The above example was discussed, and I believe was tried. It doesn't mean that any of it will necessarily be adopted, but I'm fighting the corner for some big changes and wide-spread training on technique. I know that Ceroc franchisees have enough autonomy from experience.

Lee Bartholomew

22nd-June-2007, 09:25 PM

The odd thing though is that some good dancers seem to naturally emerge. There is a localish club where the teacher and DJ (one and the same) is genrally rated as one of the worst on this plaent. The men are uniformally appalling ... HOWEVER, there are at least 4 really good female dancers there who have been predominantly taught by the teacher :confused: :eek: How is that possible??

I agree with Gus.:eek:. If anyone knows about the MJ club I started off at, which is poss one of the worst in the country (Andy will prob vouch for that too) you wouldn't belive it.

First off I am enjoying reading this thread. For once a good argument that does not involve me.

Secondly. I have been to one of Francks weekender workshops and not only Andy's class but also on one of Andy's teacher training course's. You will be supprised at how little difference there is in teching technique there is. OK Franck was not teaching beginners but I think Andy thinks he is revolutionising the way MJ is taught, which just isn't the case.

Many Ceroc teachers got rid of the circle step back ages ago and they are ecoraging slots and frames.

Andy is passionate about getting things right for his beginners and he does this better than a majority of Ceroc classes. Andy doesn't give away DVD's but he does encorage them to come back in other was. His humor and stage presance for a start.

Someone said in this thread that he is not producing comp winners and amazing dancers etc. No he doesn't, not yet. There are a few comming up. Zara I think is 100% rocsters and there are a few younger ones I saw in Shoreham that seem to be getting there. Unfortunatly with Andys location, as it was in Hastings, you will get the older dancers starting up. The ones that go once a week for a night out, so you wouldn't expect to see fab dancers.

Andy McGregor

22nd-June-2007, 10:11 PM

Standardisation yes, but as I say we are all allowed to develop trials and pilot schemes. The above example was discussed, and I believe was tried. It doesn't mean that any of it will necessarily be adopted, but I'm fighting the corner for some big changes and wide-spread training on technique. I know that Ceroc franchisees have enough autonomy from experience.It seems to me that Franck is in a minority at Ceroc. At least that's what I read into this post. What I wonder is why Franck sticks with Ceroc. He's obviously a maverick (Dance the Night Away :wink: ) and should be allowed to do what he thinks is right. Would he be teaching the semi-circle if he weren't part of Ceroc? I don't expect to get a straight or honest answer while he is part of Ceroc :innocent:

And, why do I think that the semi-circle causes the bounce? Because we don't teach the semi-circle and we don't get bouncy dancers. Of course there could be some other reason.

And Franck is right about my teachers training being only a short time. It's all the time I've got and there is only one of me, I've got a day-job and only so much energy to expend on everything. All I can do in the time I have is place the student's feet on the correct path. But, guess what, the ladies walk that path like this, RLRLRLRL :devil:

Franck

22nd-June-2007, 10:24 PM

It seems to me that Franck is in a minority at Ceroc. At least that's what I read into this post. What I wonder is why Franck sticks with Ceroc. Maybe in a minority, but in a fast growing one. I believe in what Ceroc is achieving across the UK and now more and more of the world. I don't recognize the picture that some of our competitors are trying to paint of a big corporation trying to stifle initiative and quality. Most of us work very hard (at least as hard as Andy seems to) to create the best classes we can, whilst at the same time developing the dance and improving the training structure.

And, why do I think that the semi-circle causes the bounce? Because we don't teach the semi-circle and we don't get bouncy dancers. Of course there could be some other reason.You are quite wrong, I would have stopped teaching the semi-circle ages ago, regardless of my affiliation to Ceroc if I believed it did more harm than good. As for your syllogism, I teach the semi-circle (as do all the teachers in Scotland) and we don't get any bouncy dancers either, so I would look for another straw-man to wave your sabre at!

And Franck is right about my teachers training being only a short time. It's all the time I've got and there is only one of me, I've got a day-job and only so much energy to expend on everything. Which is why I am glad to belong to a large organisation, change may be slower, but when it does happen it is carried across the UK, regardless of how many hours I (or other dedicated teachers) can offer.

blackisleboy

22nd-June-2007, 11:30 PM

Raul

23rd-June-2007, 12:25 AM

So far we have covered, Frank and Andy's -

a)dancing history.
b)their teachers

This is shaping up to be a proxy fight between DavidB and Nigel :rofl:
:D

c) the size of organisations they come from
d) their profession and whether they are at it part-time or full-time

we are now calling for testimony from pupils

As a regular attendee of Franck & Sheena's Inverness class, I have to say .... bla bla.. I'd be very interested to hear what Andy's pupils have to say regarding his style of teaching and the atmosphere of his classes.

Caro is looking for Popcorn.

Woodface does not have a fixed opinion on the matter!!(This must be a first!)

I have been to one of Francks weekender workshops and not only Andy's class but also on one of Andy's teacher training course's. You will be supprised at how little difference there is in teching technique there is.

What's up next?

"And I suppose he thinks has a prettier wife" - Comment from Arsene Wenger that drove Alex Ferguson raging mad.

Twirlie Bird

23rd-June-2007, 02:52 AM

Ceroc use the semicircle at the start of patterns in class. Beginners use it at the start of dances. How does that cause people to mark the beat by bouncing their hands?

IMHO, bouncy hands are due to beginners picking up bad habits from more experienced dancers.

I so have to disagree here. :what: I learnt to dance in venues where the teachers 'actively encourage' bouncy hands. :eek: The franchisee dances with bouncy hands. :eek: Bouncy hands is good. :rolleyes: In the line up in class you bounce your hands to find the beat before stepping back! :angry: I am being serious too. :tears: It wasn't until reading this forum that I discovered that while bouncy hands may be useful to help beginners keep time it does absolutely nothing to help make your dancing smooth and dignified.:what:

ducasi

23rd-June-2007, 11:12 AM

I so have to disagree here. :what: I learnt to dance in venues where the teachers 'actively encourage' bouncy hands. :eek:
OK, but it's still not the semicircle that is the cause of the bounce then, is it?

Raul

23rd-June-2007, 11:30 AM

OK, but it's still not the semicircle that is the cause of the bounce then, is it?

No, its the Full Circle we seem to be going around in, ad nauseam.

.

Andy McGregor

23rd-June-2007, 11:46 AM

Before joining the bunfight wholeheartedly, I'd be very interested to hear what Andy's pupils have to say regarding his style of teaching and the atmosphere of his classes. Having looked at his website with its exhaustive list of dos and don'ts, there is very little chance that, as a newcomer thinking about starting to dance, I would want to attend.Thank you for that feedback about the tips. I've been thinking of removing the tips for 2 reasons. The first one is that my webmaster uses a Mac and it's inserted loads of odd punctuation. The second is backed up by what blackisleboy says, I think it makes the dance seem complicated.

The odd thing is that I get loads of positive comments about the regular dance tips when we mail one out each week. Maybe they seem OK when you read one every 7 days but seem a bit daunting when read at one sitting.

Andy McGregor

23rd-June-2007, 12:05 PM

You are quite wrong, I would have stopped teaching the semi-circle ages ago, regardless of my affiliation to Ceroc if I believed it did more harm than good. As for your syllogism, I teach the semi-circle (as do all the teachers in Scotland) and we don't get any bouncy dancers either, so I would look for another straw-man to wave your sabre at! I think that I could be the rest of Franck's teaching that ensures his dancers are smooth (in my experience his dancers are all smoothies). It probably means Franck is the wrong peroson to debate bouncy, jerky tuggy dancers at Ceroc nights.

I've been to many venues, Ceroc and others. Almost all of them do the semi-circle and almost all of them have dancers who bounce.

My theory about why the semi-circle causes the bounce is that it involves a significant raising and lowering of the hand. When I dance with ladies who are expecting the semi-circle they apply tension in an upwards direction on every step back, this pulls my hand upwards: after the step back, the ladies push my hand downwards - I get infected with the bounce :what:

And then there's the other bit of the oft said phrase "both step back". I think this is where the jerky, tuggy thing starts. The step back is often too big as both partners do it - so they pull at their partner to get close enough.

It might be the case that Franck does not have a problem with bouncy, tuggy, jerky dancers. For that reason I do not think he should feel criticised by my posts about Ceroc. However, I attend many Ceroc venues in the South East. With one exception these venues are populated by nice people who have somehow been taught a dance that bounces, tugs, jerks and is done in a giant circle with partners at arms length. As Franck has obviously solved the problem I would love to hear what he thinks is at the root cause of this style of dancing :innocent:

Lee Bartholomew

23rd-June-2007, 12:39 PM

I don't think people bounce because of semi circles or step backs.

Andy makes it sound like no one at his classes bounce. This isn't quite the case. Wouldn't say there are less bouncers than any ceroc venues, however he does have less bouncers than the other clubs in the South East.

Im sure Francks classes have their fair share of bouncers too.

I noticed the other night when I joint in the beginners class, that you can normally tell the bouncers as they are walking up towards you. They are the ones who are bouncing and dancing as they walk x ladies on. They are the ones that dance to themselves as the music plays.

I always try and discurage hand bouncing during the count in. Unfortunatly most teachers seem to encourage it. I think a bit part of the problem lays here. You try bouncing during the count, then dancing smooth. It just doesn't happen.

Also poppy songs like 'sweet escape' during the lesson do nithing to discurage it either.

Smooth out the songs during the lesson and you will prob find the dancers smooth themselves out.

JiveLad

23rd-June-2007, 12:39 PM

I think that I could be the rest of Franck's teaching that ensures his dancers are smooth (in my experience his dancers are all smoothies). It probably means Franck is the wrong peroson to debate bouncy, jerky tuggy dancers at Ceroc nights.

I've been to many venues, Ceroc and others. Almost all of them do the semi-circle and almost all of them have dancers who bounce.

My theory about why the semi-circle causes the bounce is that it involves a significant raising and lowering of the hand. When I dance with ladies who are expecting the semi-circle they apply tension in an upwards direction on every step back, this pulls my hand upwards: after the step back, the ladies push my hand downwards - I get infected with the bounce :what:

And then there's the other bit of the oft said phrase "both step back". I think this is where the jerky, tuggy thing starts. The step back is often too big as both partners do it - so they pull at their partner to get close enough.

It might be the case that Franck does not have a problem with bouncy, tuggy, jerky dancers. For that reason I do not think he should feel criticised by my posts about Ceroc. However, I attend many Ceroc venues in the South East. With one exception these venues are populated by nice people who have somehow been taught a dance that bounces, tugs, jerks and is done in a giant circle with partners at arms length. As Franck has obviously solved the problem I would love to hear what he thinks is at the root cause of this style of dancing :innocent:

Well, I don't notice it so much in the South -East. A few months ago at St. Albans Ceroc, the semi-circle was specifically and categorically discarded by the teacher. Fine. Imho - there is a place for bouncy hands on certain moves to certain music - it can add a certain feeling and fun. I don't much care how it looks to be honest - as I am not into competitions: my priorities are connection/conversation and fun.

Andy McGregor

23rd-June-2007, 12:59 PM

Well, I don't notice it so much in the South -East. A few months ago at St. Albans Ceroc, the semi-circle was specifically and categorically discarded by the teacher. Fine. Imho - there is a place for bouncy hands on certain moves to certain music - it can add a certain feeling and fun. I don't much care how it looks to be honest - as I am not into competitions: my priorities are connection/conversation and fun.I've never been to St Albans Ceroc (although, by an odd course of events, I do have their old stage). It's great to hear some Ceroc teachers are seeing the light. I wonder if the Waffen CTA will send in stormtroopers to bounce this enlightened teacher out of the venue. Maybe Franck will tell him that he's wrong in the same belittling way as he's told me that I'm supposed to be wrong :mad:

I think that Jive Lad is right, there are some moves and some tracks that need the odd bounce. But that is not what I'm talking about. It's the constant bounce that I notice in just about every Ceroc venue I attend - I was at one on Monday (one of the ladies guessed I'd gone dancing to get away from Big Brother) and it was the same bounce as I've seen in most places. I find it very tiring to constantly have my hand bounced, and I find it a challenge to keep giving my hand away every time I get tugged and I find it makes my little legs tired to keep having to step forward to maintain a reasonable distance when my partner steps back too far. Next Monday I'll find some other refuge from the BB House!

StokeBloke

23rd-June-2007, 05:20 PM

And, why do I think that the semi-circle causes the bounce? Because we don't teach the semi-circle and we don't get bouncy dancers. Of course there could be some other reason.
I know that when I very first started to dance the semi-circle thing caused me some confusion. You are told to do it to start the move but then they all mysteriously vanish when you start to link the moves together.

I fail to see how a semi-circle is teaching good connection or technique. What purpose does this weird little movement serve? What does it convey to your follow?

As for bouncing. It is so bad in these parts that it is known to many people who dance nationally as 'the midland's bounce'! I believe that Ceroc classes being regularly taught by a non-CTA teacher is a big part in this. Using financial lures to keep dancers within a particular franchise area just promotes this 'interbreeding' of clockwork soldier leads :tears: The sad truth is, if you want a decent dance you need to move further afield where Ceroc is at least being taught to the CTA standard. It is a shame that more people in the area don't vote with their feet, but without knowing about smooth dance techniques most of these punters don't realise that there even is a better way :eek: :eek: :eek: But, honestly, trying to lead some of them is like shaking hands with an over excited Japanese tourist!

I feel that teaching leads NOT to bounce is equally as important as teaching them to be smooth!

David Bailey

23rd-June-2007, 06:09 PM

Maybe in a minority, but in a fast growing one.
Mmm. Not sure about that.

I strongly suspect that it makes better business sense for franchisees to "import" elite talent, than to spend the time and effort needed to train up local talent to that level. At least in the short term - and that's how most franchisees think, in my opinion.

Which is why, for example, yourself, DavidB & Lily, Amir and others are travelling round teaching. I've not seen signs of any local technique classes being taught in Ceroc in London, for example - and that's over a half-dozen franchises, dozens of classes.

So I've seen no evidence that your excellent lead is being followed by Ceroc in general.

I believe in what Ceroc is achieving across the UK and now more and more of the world. I don't recognize the picture that some of our competitors are trying to paint of a big corporation trying to stifle initiative and quality.
Me neither - I think Mike is committed to improving dance, and to expanding Ceroc into new areas. Yes, he wants to make money, but he's already proven he can make bucketloads of cash anyway in other areas anyway.

David Bailey

23rd-June-2007, 06:10 PM

As a regular attendee of Franck & Sheena's Inverness class, I have to say that good technique is taught in a natural and enjoyable way. Bounciness is kept to a minimum, and for a class that has been running for a relatively short time, there are some truly talented dancers, many of whom had never danced previously.
Yeah, but - so what? That's nothing to do with anything is it?

Before joining the bunfight wholeheartedly, I'd be very interested to hear what Andy's pupils have to say regarding his style of teaching and the atmosphere of his classes.
Why? I don't really care what Andy's pupils say. Hell, I don't really care what Franck's pupils say for that matter. Everyone always likes their local classes. Hell, I even defended Finchley for a while. :devil:

I want to hear what the teachers are saying about technique, and about how they think technique in MJ can be improved.

Having looked at his website with its exhaustive list of dos and don'ts, there is very little chance that, as a newcomer thinking about starting to dance, I would want to attend.
You inspired me to look at his website - and I have to say, I was very impressed.
:clap: to Andy - it's well-designed, clean, well-organised, and ibnteresting. The text formatting of the "dance tips" could be jazzed-up a little with some more visible headings, ity's a bit difficult to work through, but generally it's a much better site than most Ceroc franchisees have.

In fact, I'm going to go out on a limb here, and say that it's better than the CerocScotland site... :whistle:

David Bailey

23rd-June-2007, 06:11 PM

I've never been to St Albans Ceroc (although, by an odd course of events, I do have their old stage).
The two folded-out tables put together? :what:

Blimey, Andy, I didn't realise you were that hard up... :hug:

Andy McGregor

25th-June-2007, 07:19 AM

The two folded-out tables put together? :what:

Blimey, Andy, I didn't realise you were that hard up... :hug:That's right. It's two 5 foot squares joined to make a 5x10 dance stage. I won it on ebay for £32 (when I picked it up I was surprised to hear it had been used by Ceroc and had cost the council £2,000!!) a few months ago to use in a venue that has a low stage (The stage at this venue is about a foot high and I'm so short I'm only just looking some tall guys in the eye :tears: ). The stage needs some work to stop it wobbling so I haven't actually used it yet. The venue I need the stage for is a new venue and still has 2 lines. This means I can be seen down the "isle" by everybody and don't need to be seen over people's heads. Once the venue is busy and has 3 lines I'll feel motivated to get the stage fixed and store it at the venue.

bigdjiver

25th-June-2007, 08:55 AM

... The "basic flaw that affects the way people dance MJ" is the way MJ is taught in regular classes. 100+ people in the class, 4 rows, teacher on stage with microphone. It's surely not a coincidence that dances with steeper learning curves are always taught in a totally different way? ...People have different natural abilities, physical and mental. Few people would go along to a Tango class if they could not visualise the connection between the music and the movement, or to a Lindy class if they could not move their feet and their thoughts fast enough. Such dances tend to attract fewer people of higher natural ability.
The norm for an MJ class is a high proportion of people who thought that they could not dance. I must have dragged a well over a hundred ladies onto the floor who were saying "I can't do this." Most of them actually could. Ceroc does a super job of getting average people to enjoy dancing. Many of them do not want to learn 'technique', they just want to enjoy themselves, maximum gain for minimum pain.
The easiest way to raise the standards would be to raise the entry level, in talent and dedication required, and I will continue to fight against that.

David Bailey

25th-June-2007, 09:27 AM

People have different natural abilities, physical and mental. Few people would go along to a Tango class if they could not visualise the connection between the music and the movement, or to a Lindy class if they could not move their feet and their thoughts fast enough. Such dances tend to attract fewer people of higher natural ability.
I'm not convinced of this - I've seen some right numpties in AT classes (such as myself of course). Similarly for ballroom classes for that matter. And don't get me started on the hen night crowd at salsa classes in Central London :rolleyes:

So I'm not sure if there's a self-selection mechanism - it's possible, but I dunno if it's a major factor.

However, I agree that there's a steeper learning curve for almost any other dance, and that this generally means that, for example, the people who stick with other dance forms will learn more quickly. Of course, the flipside of that is that those other dance forms have a greater dropout rate.

The easiest way to raise the standards would be to raise the entry level, in talent and dedication required
I agree - to compete in actual dance technique with other dance forms, so that MJ would be a respected dance, you'd have to adopt some or many of the conventions of those forms. Assessments, for example, and teaching "the hard stuff" at an earlier point.

Which would be against many of the key business concepts of MJ, as it would raise the dropout rate.

Lee Bartholomew

25th-June-2007, 09:33 AM

I agree - to compete in actual dance technique with other dance forms, so that MJ would be a respected dance, you'd have to adopt some or many of the conventions of those forms. Assessments, for example, and teaching "the hard stuff" at an earlier point.

Which would be against many of the key business concepts of MJ, as it would raise the dropout rate.

Thing is though, With most other dances are you not aiming to reach a perfection i.e. the dancers are all aiming to look the same?

With MJ different styles is encouraged and something that is normally developed from fairly early on. If Beginners were taught footwork, it would make it harder for people to develop style.

I've danced with people who have been going years and they still dance like beginners and then I have danced with people who have gone weeks and they dance like pros.

David Bailey

25th-June-2007, 09:44 AM

Thing is though, With most other dances are you not aiming to reach a perfection i.e. the dancers are all aiming to look the same?
Hmmm.... dunno. Not in salsa, definitely. And not in AT either. Both of those have quite... extreme... discussions on best technique. You haven't lived until you've seen two AT teachers arguing about the merits of toe versus heel first during the walk :)

But yes, I think ballroom does have more of a "best practice" thing going.

With MJ different styles is encouraged and something that is normally developed from fairly early on.
It's probably more accurate to say "different styles are permitted" - it's not a case that specific style development is encouraged, more that nothing is really taught, so people make it up as they want.

If Beginners were taught footwork, it would make it harder for people to develop style.
Who said anything about footwork? :confused:

There's too much flippin' arguing about footwork sometimes, all this "right foot back, left foot back" nonsense...

Also, why would footwork development inhibit style? Possibly I misunderstand what you mean by "footwork"?

Lee Bartholomew

25th-June-2007, 09:52 AM

Who said anything about footwork? :confused:

There's too much flippin' arguing about footwork sometimes, all this "right foot back, left foot back" nonsense...

Also, why would footwork development inhibit style? Possibly I misunderstand what you mean by "footwork"?

Differnt styles are encouraged mearly by not being taught. If you are not taught a style, you have to make one up. Ofcourse a good percentage of regular class attendees just go through the motions and have no style whatsoever but a few do.

I agree on the footwork thing, there is only a few times when footwork is or should be taught. Something that makes me laugh on the forum is when two people (one normaly being Andy McG) argue about corect footwork for a first move. Cracks me up everytime.

One teacher I used to go to in Hastings teaches every move by getting people to step in on left and plant your heal toes up, then beat two step back. beat three step in n right, tap heel toes up, beat four step back.

No one there has any style. All look like they are trying to tread on ants.

Franck

25th-June-2007, 10:03 AM

Maybe Franck will tell him that he's wrong in the same belittling way as he's told me that I'm supposed to be wrong :mad:I don't see it as my (public) responsibility to correct all mistaken or misguided teacher out there, unless they attempt to make (seemingly) authoritative pronouncements on this forum.

I know some dubious advice is shared on the forum by well-meaning dancers, but believe teachers have more of a responsibility than to spout nonsense just because it makes them look clever or because it damages a competitor.

I strongly suspect that it makes better business sense for franchisees to "import" elite talent, than to spend the time and effort needed to train up local talent to that level. At least in the short term - and that's how most franchisees think, in my opinion.

Which is why, for example, yourself, DavidB & Lily, Amir and others are travelling round teaching. I've not seen signs of any local technique classes being taught in Ceroc in London, for example - and that's over a half-dozen franchises, dozens of classes.

So I've seen no evidence that your excellent lead is being followed by Ceroc in general.First of all, it takes time. Good technique and understanding it doesn't come overnight, so I wouldn't expect teachers to learn something new and start teaching 'technique classes' overnight.

As for travelling teachers, this is the best way to learn. Before weekenders were common place, inviting teachers like Amir, David & Lily, Stefano and Alexandra, and many more, was the only way for me to learn all that technique. I used every single of the workshops I asked them to teach in Scotland as a means to improve my own technique and dancing. So, yes, I see evidence of classes starting with a focus on the technique of dance, which is why I'm more optimistic than you and maybe a bit protective too, so that when Andy McGregor attacks Ceroc, I take it personally on behalf of all the teachers who are trying to improve the standards across the board but are being undermined by constant sniping from people who should know better and often live in glass houses themselves.

Andy McGregor

25th-June-2007, 10:57 AM

I'm more optimistic than you and maybe a bit protective too, so that when Andy McGregor attacks Ceroc, I take it personally on behalf of all the teachers who are trying to improve the standards across the board but are being undermined by constant sniping from people who should know better and often live in glass houses themselves.I don't see my sniping as constant. It's more an occasional part-work :innocent:

Most of the time I post in response to other posts. I can't actually remember what prompted me to post/snipe on this occasion :confused: Sometimes I post criticism because I see a lack of perspective. There seems to be an attitude on this Forum that Ceroc is perfect and can do no wrong. This prompts me to point out its imperfections - I see it all as a public service :devil:

On the subject of living in glass houses, Franck is completely correct. I, too, live in a glass house. I'm only too aware of many of my imperfections. And I'm probably in blissful ignorance of a whole batch of imperfections. Realisation of one's imperfections can make us protective and agressive - especially if those imperfections are pointed out by somebody who is imperfect themselves.

I have never been critical of Franck's teaching, or classes or students. All the evidence I've seen and read points to Ceroc Scotland being very good. I only have the evidence I've seen with my own eyes locally. I have been quick to point out the faults I've observed at our local Ceroc classes. I thought I was doing Ceroc a favour, I'd love it if somebody gave me loads of free feedback on where they think I'm going wrong with my classes and suggestions for improvements - also, I have a vested interest in Ceroc improving in the South East, they are my local dance venues and I'd like them to be better so that I have somewhere good to go dancing. Judging by Franck's comments, it seems to me that my suggestions are unwelcome. So, from this day onwards I will keep my silence about what I consider are the faults of Ceroc - it they want to know how I think they can improve they can pay me my usual business consultancy rate* :innocent:

*As a consultant I can predict that Hell freezing over will be the week before.