If no-one really likes bendy, pretzelling moves, then why are they taught?

[Terpsichorea]

Seems like an obvious question, I know, but after posting on here for a while, the consensus among most followers seems to be that they would rather be led into simple but stylish moves, rather than wilfully complicated ones.

So the question has to be asked - why are complicated, bendy, hatchblock body block spin clever moves taught in Intermediate classes, if they're generally disliked by most followers? It may be pretzel fatigue, but I'm getting tired of being taught moves where I have to repeatedly nelson myself or perform bendy variations on a Salsa basket.

If teachers are on the end of feedback from the people they teach, surely they can see that these moves aren't particularly popular?

Just a thought...

[JiveLad]

Seems like an obvious question, I know, but after posting on here for a while, the consensus among most followers seems to be that they would rather be led into simple but stylish moves, rather than wilfully complicated ones.

So the question has to be asked - why are complicated, bendy, hatchblock body block spin clever moves taught in Intermediate classes, if they're generally disliked by most followers? It may be pretzel fatigue, but I'm getting tired of being taught moves where I have to repeatedly nelson myself or perform bendy variations on a Salsa basket.

If teachers are on the end of feedback from the people they teach, surely they can see that these moves aren't particularly popular?

Just a thought...

Well, I have to strongly agree with you........increasingly, I feel "oh no not another set of new moves".....particularly with the Advanced class at St. Albans.

Incidentally, this class goes:
Beginner
Improver
Advanced

The teaching is great - however, the Advanced moves are ultra-complex to remember - sometimes 20+ beat extravanganzas: am I really going to apply in freestyle? For me, the answer is no. I would much prefer a 4 weekly cycle of:

week 1: moves (as per current)
week 2: style
week 3: musicality (example tracks)
week 4: 'golden nugget' type moves/tips

...For me, some kind of different structure (as above) to the teaching would be of much greater value. I've stopped going to the Advanced class - it's just not worth it - I go to the Improvers and then the Improver refresh instead.

Why do they do this? I guess it is because it is how it has developed - and it would need a lot of consistent customer feedback to change......?

[Terpsichorea]

I'm with you on the musicality front - I think that would be a lot more use than getting people to dance a mega-complicated move robotically, as though listening to a metronome. Perhaps, as you say, it's down to customer feedback :sad:

On the one hand, it's nice to know you can perform a technically difficult series of moves, but bugger all use if said moves a) look needlessly fiddly and b) break your connection with your partner.

[Franck]

So the question has to be asked - why are complicated, bendy, hatchblock body block spin clever moves taught in Intermediate classes, if they're generally disliked by most followers?
I agree with the sentiment, and I'm sure most people on the Forum will too, but you are underestimating the popularity of those moves with Leaders! As teachers, the feedback we often receive at the end of a class (or the following week) is that the complex, twisty, arm bendy move we taught was the best move ever... On the other hand, despite teaching many simple, musical and easy to fit into freestyle moves every week, you sometimes get the 'Is that it?' look / feedback if a move is too simple, even if it feels great and will be more useful in freestyle than any Pretzel.

The teaching is great - however, the Advanced moves are ultra-complex to remember - sometimes 20+ beat extravanganzas: am I really going to apply in freestyle? For me, the answer is no. The answer if also more complex than that though. Learning complex moves is great for introdusing new directions in your dancing, when I was learning all those new moves, I would often know I'd never dance them in Freestyle, but I discovered new ways of blending moves together which I did use, and you also build muscle memory, which means that in Freestyle you might end up doing something new as a result!

Why do they do this? I guess it is because it is how it has developed - and it would need a lot of consistent customer feedback to change......?As I mentioned above, the feedback is not as clear and obvious as you think. Moreover, as all of us are keen to retain men in our classes, it's important we give them what they want (up to a point), however misguided they might be! There will be time to learn simpler more musical dancing later provided they haven't already left due to lack of 'interesting' moves!

[Tessalicious]

I hate to say it yet again, but the forum isn't necessarily representative*.

The followers on here don't like these kinds of moves because we know that there are alternatives, and we also know how it feels when they go wrong and how uncomfortable this is, and also because they give us no room for our own musicality.

Many improver/early intermediate/long-term intermediate followers, on the other hand, see these complicated moves as fancy, as the height of cool, because they have to concentrate, because they feel "whizzy", or because they feel like they're going horribly wrong and come right at the end. Whatever the reason, there are followers who enjoy these moves, and many early intermediate leaders see them as something to aspire to being able to do in the classes because they look and feel so complicated.

There would be a lot of propaganda needed to persuade these people that the smooth and simple moves are preferable. After all, the footwork is simple enough at that level - you've got to get the wow factor from somewhere, or there's no point in learning to dance, right?


*(I typed 'repetitive' by mistake - Freudian or what?)

[timbp]

I doubt you'll get many leaders to sit down for an anatomy lecture. The bendy twisty moves give them an understanding of which way a follower's arm will bend, and which way it won't bend.

So a few followers get broken? Women who go dancing are a renewable resource, :whistle: and those who survive benefit because the leaders have learnt which way arms bend, or (having broken a follower) have learnt not to lead these moves.

I have to agree with Tessalicious -- many followers tell me they like these moves. I don't lead many because I don't like them much myself, but when I do, they usually get a positive response.

[David Bailey]

Seems like an obvious question, I know, but after posting on here for a while, the consensus among most followers seems to be that they would rather be led into simple but stylish moves, rather than wilfully complicated ones.
Most of the followers who are regular posters on this forum, yes. That's a very very different thing to most followers in the MJ scene. We're talking about (at most) 100 people, out of a national MJ audience of 100,000.

(In other words, don't confuse the Forum with reality :wink: )


So the question has to be asked - why are complicated, bendy, hatchblock body block spin clever moves taught in Intermediate classes, if they're generally disliked by most followers?
Lots and lots and lots of people in MJ love the complicated bendy fast-and-furious 2,000-beat moves - most of Australia, for example :devil:.

There's a big market for this type of move, look at the Jive Nation classes for example.


It may be pretzel fatigue, but I'm getting tired of being taught moves where I have to repeatedly nelson myself or perform bendy variations on a Salsa basket. If teachers are on the end of feedback from the people they teach, surely they can see that these moves aren't particularly popular
Ah, but they are popular. Just not good :)

Without trying to be patronising, I think one needs to get past a certain stage as a dancer, before you realise that good technique (usually) involves reduction and analysis and minimalism.

For example, the absolute best class I've done in AT was an hour spent dividing and subdividing the components of a side-step, into smaller and smaller segments - then trying to lead each segment individually. That was months ago, and I'm still working on the stuff I learned at that one lesson.

However, I doubt if I'd have appreciated that class 10 years ago - possibly not even 5 years ago. I'd have probably also said "Is that it?", and moaned about wasting my money.

So, from a purely commercial point-of-view, more people want the bendy stuff than the simple stuff.

[Terpsichorea]

Many improver/early intermediate/long-term intermediate followers, on the other hand, see these complicated moves as fancy, as the height of cool

Yep guilty :blush: (until fairly recently). I think a number of things changed my mind, the main one being that I never got complimented for chucking lots of bendy pretzelly things at a follower - when I did get complimented, it was for doing something fairly simple, but stylishly. A follower recently remarked to me: Wow, you know so many moves, which led me to think, 'but what am I actually doing with them?'

Maybe a greater emphasis on footwork would offset the appeal of complicated moves - although the fact that footwork can be much more difficult (but less showy) might put people off?

[David Bailey]

Maybe a greater emphasis on footwork would offset the appeal of complicated moves - although the fact that footwork can be much more difficult (but less showy) might put people off?
I don't think MJ will ever really wean itself off of "move-heavy" teaching - that's the business model that mostly works, so I think they'll stick with it for their bread-and-butter.

Although, of course, you have to give Ceroc credit over the past few years, in that they've experimented, developed, and taught specialist workshops.

But until at least some "technique" gets taught as standard in every regular class, you'll still get most people focussed on the moves and nothing but the moves.

This isn't just Ceroc, BTW - all other dance forms have this. But at least most other forms teach technique as well as moves, right from the start.

[Chef]

I think it is primarily driven by the differing motivations of men and women.

Men are mostly visual and are impressed or captivated by how something looks. Women are mostly interested in how something makes them feel.

This is reflected in how a man chooses a gadjet. It will have a huge number of functions on it (most of which he will never use) and he will read the manual just so that he knows the whole range of things that it can do (but cannot concieve of an occasion when that function would actually be useful). A woman wants something that will do just what she wants and makes her feel good for having it.

If you want to impress a leader then you teach him a long and tangly move that involves lots of intricate things that he can get wrong (just so he can feel the moment of triumph when he finally can do it all the way through) that he can ditch when he gets bored with playing with the new toy or gives up because he just can rememeber everything.

If you want to impress a follower (I have this on the advice of my partner) do something that makes her feel nice (and doesn't mess up her hair). Simple or complicated it doesn't matter as long as it feels nice. So if you can't make something simple feel nice then you are wasting your time trying something complicated.

The reason you get taught complicated bendy arm thing moves is that most guys won't stay in a lesson to learn how to make something simple feel good.

[whitetiger1518]

I think it is primarily driven by the differing motivations of men and women.

If you want to impress a follower (I have this on the advice of my partner) do something that makes her feel nice (and doesn't mess up her hair). Simple or complicated it doesn't matter as long as it feels nice. So if you can't make something simple feel nice then you are wasting your time trying something complicated.


This is the reason behind why some leaders (those that have deliberately chosen the simple but good quality routines) regularly get fought over at freestyles.

:rofl:

Whitetiger

[killingtime]

Men are mostly visual and are impressed or captivated by how something looks. Women are mostly interested in how something makes them feel.

Maybe. Perhaps more men should take up following then they'd know why something that might feel fine as a lead isn't very nice as a follower. Once you realise some things aren't very nice to follow you are less likely to do them.


This is reflected in how a man chooses a gadget. It will have a huge number of functions on it (most of which he will never use) and he will read the manual just so that he knows the whole range of things that it can do

Read the manual? Are you mad? The only time a geek should read a manual is when the thing breaks. I get that all men aren't geeks but it should be a matter of pride. Like not asking for directions.


A woman wants something that will do just what she wants and makes her feel good for having it.

:what:

[whitetiger1518]

Don't look so puzzled KT - you lead wonderfully! :worthy:
Whitetiger

[FirstMove]

There was a poll on the forum about pretzels here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/lets-talk-about-dance/11221-pretzels-love-em-hate-em.html), from which it seems that most forum dancers like pretzels and those that don't are just a nosiy minority.

[Double Trouble]

There was a poll on the forum about pretzels here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/lets-talk-about-dance/11221-pretzels-love-em-hate-em.html), from which it seems that most forum dancers like pretzels and those that don't are just a nosiy minority.

Can't argue with a poll I suppose:rolleyes: Thing is I don't know anyone who likes pretzels.

Other things generally hated by followers are complicated arm in tangle moves and leaders deliberatly trying to trick you in to doing the wrong move...please don't try and make me think, really, you are flogging a dead horse.:innocent:

It's all too much like hard work as far as I am concerned.

[Chef]

Maybe. Perhaps more men should take up following then they'd know why something that might feel fine as a lead isn't very nice as a follower. Once you realise some things aren't very nice to follow you are less likely to do them.:

Most definately agree. I have said this a while ago on a thread about men learning to follow and recounting my own experiences. Men really need to learn to follow from men (which can often cause unease in the leaders) because the women leaders already know what is nice to follow while most of the men don't have that knowledge.


Read the manual? Are you mad? The only time a geek should read a manual is when the thing breaks. I get that all men aren't geeks but it should be a matter of pride. Like not asking for directions.:

You don't see many women with a swiss army knife that has 30 functions while it would be no surprise to see a man with one. The fact that he is only likely to use at most 5 of the functions of the knife is irrelvant. It is the 'gee whizz look at all the things that this can do" factor that get the guys interested. With the gadjet the guy would be interested in knowing how many functions that it has without ever being bothered to actually learn how to use them.

Just like asking directions. A guy may have a very good map in the car but actually looking at will be a last resort only resorted to when the guy unexpectedly encounters sea.

[whitetiger1518]

Can't argue with a poll I suppose:rolleyes: Thing is I don't know anyone who likes pretzels.



Where is the Pretzelmeister for a comment when we need him? ;)

Whitetiger

[David Bailey]

There was a poll on the forum about pretzels here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/lets-talk-about-dance/11221-pretzels-love-em-hate-em.html), from which it seems that most forum dancers like pretzels and those that don't are just a nosiy minority.
I suspect you've blown your chances of a dance with CeeCee now... :devil:

But the entire Forum is a noisy minority, come to that.

[Jhutch]

Most definately agree. I have said this a while ago on a thread about men learning to follow and recounting my own experiences. Men really need to learn to follow from men (which can often cause unease in the leaders) because the women leaders already know what is nice to follow while most of the men don't have that knowledge.



Although the male follower could take note of the sort of moves that the female leader does use - and not just when he is following (although i suppose you have to watch out in case a woman is using you for revenge on inconsiderate males:wink: )

[Spiky Steve]

Pretzels can be fun like the false pretzel but I wouldn't do one in the blues room.
If you like a twisty arm move then you can't beat a Cuban Winder.:waycool:
It gives the follower a surprised look and just shagged look and all in one move :wink: :devil:

Steve

[philsmove]

I asked this question some time ago of an “ex sergeant major type” Leroc Teacher

His reply was brilliant
“You aren’t ‘ere to enjoy yourself, your ‘ear to learn to dance”

Another answer- if teachers stuck to easy moves every one would soon learn them and stop coming to lessons