WCS – lacking men?

[ducasi]

I was wondering if other folks perceive a lack of men learning WCS compared to MJ?

We know that there is usually extra women at MJ classes, but at WCS classes and (non-balanced) workshops it seems much, much worse.

Any thoughts on why this is, and how to fix it?

[Minnie M]

I was wondering if other folks perceive a lack of men learning WCS compared to MJ?

We know that there is usually extra women at MJ classes, but at WCS classes and (non-balanced) workshops it seems much, much worse.

Any thoughts on why this is, and how to fix it?

Ah.... that is when you need a WCS teacher like David Barker :worthy: or the Master Kyle Redd :respect:

Kyle doesn't put as much emphasis on beginner men using footwork (initially) making it more important to get dancing - David B, who is one our finest WCS UK dancers (not a lot of people know that), hardly moves his feet (as we all know) - but his lead and timing is perfect

WCS Footwork IS important (very important) but IMO because of this, it does scare a lot of MJ to WCS leads/men a little :sad:

[FirstMove]

You can MJ to just about any music and as a lead you can even dance with muggles without any expectation of certain behaviours on the follower's part. This isn't true of WCS.

In the WCS classes I've done, the women who have any idea how to do it properly have all been in the fixed couples, so every practice I've had of the basic moves has felt completely different. The first 6 weeks of Ceroc as a beginner were painful at the time, I imagine it's more like 20 weeks before you can attempt anything usefully intermediate in WCS, by which time I'd give up. Walking up and down the slot and turning appears in my uneducated eyes to be alot easier then leading it.

Personally, I don't West Coast because there are no local classes; I doubt there ever will be. If I was going to choose a new dance to learn, I'd base the decision on how often I'd get to practise. So Salsa, AT and Lindy would be far higher up the list.

I don't know why there is already an in-built follower excess in WCS, but I can't see why fundamentally it's different to the follower excess in other dances.

[Lory]

At Twickenham, for the class it's usually fairly even numbers but a lot of the men do tend to leave before the end of the freestyle...

This could of course be due to the fact that they have to travel so much further, as the classes are so few and far between?


Or they have brain ache! :wink:

[Sheepman]

We know that there is usually extra women at MJ classes, but at WCS classes and (non-balanced) workshops it seems much, much worse. If this is true in general, then there are exceptions.

The regular classes that I have most recent experience of, (Cat & Lee's) usually have numbers that are either even, or just 2 or 3 extra (sometimes followers, sometimes leaders.)

Though on those occasions where numbers are more unbalanced than that, it is usually down to new beginner ladies, most of whom don't persevere, despite an enthusiastic reception. :sad:

Greg

[frodo]

At Twickenham, for the class it's usually fairly even numbers but a lot of the men do tend to leave before the end of the freestyle...

This could of course be due to the fact that they have to travel so much further, as the classes are so few and far between?

Or they have brain ache! :wink:
Strange - I thought the general pattern for dancing seems to be the other way around, in that the women leave earlier.

Not sure if entirely tongue in cheek but it would be interesting if true that men travel further.

[tiger]

Is WCS still lacking men?

With more and more venues popping up playing WCS music this could slow the growth of this style of dance.

[robd]

Is WCS still lacking men?



Not to any greater extent than MJ (or most other partner dances I would hazard a guess) does. Last night in our weekly class at Northampton we had men (well, one man) moving on which was a first - mind you, there were a couple of ladies doing the leader's role.

It's undoubtedly a steep learning curve for new leaders but it's not easy for followers either esp. with a MJ background and the need to remove certain habits that are necessary in MJ but detrimental in WCS. I suspect there's a pretty high fall off rate for both leaders and followers learning to dance WCS.

[Tiggerbabe]

it's not easy for followers either esp. with a MJ background and the need to remove certain habits that are necessary in MJ but detrimental in WCS.
Can you expand on this Rob? What habits are you meaning?

[Rhythm King]

Not for the first time, there were a couple of men over in both the beginners and intermediates at Oakwood on Monday.

[ducasi]

Can you expand on this Rob? What habits are you meaning?
Um, not triple stepping?

[Tiggerbabe]

Um, not triple stepping?
Ha, ha, ha *slap* :hug:

[Caro]

Can you expand on this Rob? What habits are you meaning?


Um, not triple stepping?

no, personally I think not triple stepping isn't that big of an issue if you can still create the feel of the dance (timing and stretch where and when it needs to be). Proof is, the more advanced dancers don't triple step all the time.

IMO, the 3 main ones that will prevent the dance from working, by order of importance (for follows):
- waiting for the lead to move forward on 1
- distance (moving to the end of the slot - we tend to stay too close to our partner) and creating the stretch and resistance
- anchor and in particular left foot position (we tend to have left foot forward and weight on right)

Others that hinder the dance but don't make it impossible:
- too much residual connection between anchors (from 2 to 4-5 on a 6 beat pattern)
- hand hold coupling (we often tend to use fingertips)

Those are, IMO, direct consequences of dancing MJ and constitute the MJ 'bad habits' in WCS.

[robd]

Can you expand on this Rob? What habits are you meaning?

I can always expand on request from you Tiggerbabe :waycool:

I was thinking
* rockstep and automagically moving forward on 1 - yes, the better MJ followers will not necessarily do this but many do
* very light, fingertip/single finger handhold
* lack of frame/connection in the left arm - admit this is not an MJ *habit* but the fact that many MJ leads make little use of the follows left arm means it is still something for many MJ dancers to overcome.
* for more experienced MJ follows I feel that playing with the music sometimes requires different things in WCS than in MJ but can't explain this very well in writing - I just know that some will mark things in the music in ways that I would find fine in MJ but that hinder the flow of the pattern in my WCS

I don't think all this in a kind of 'MJ followers are rubbish' sense - of course not, more in a 'this is what they need to overcome and it's not easy' sense.

[MartinHarper]

To that list I'll add West Coast stricter slotting, where Modern Jive followers will dance around a stationary lead if he leads them to do so.

[ducasi]

IMO, the 3 main ones that will prevent the dance from working, by order of importance (for follows):
- waiting for the lead to move forward on 1
- distance (moving to the end of the slot - we tend to stay too close to our partner) and creating the stretch and resistance
- anchor and in particular left foot position (we tend to have left foot forward and weight on right)

Others that hinder the dance but don't make it impossible:
- too much residual connection between anchors (from 2 to 4-5 on a 6 beat pattern)
- hand hold coupling (we often tend to use fingertips)

Those are, IMO, direct consequences of dancing MJ and constitute the MJ 'bad habits' in WCS.


I was thinking
* rockstep and automagically moving forward on 1 - yes, the better MJ followers will not necessarily do this but many do
* very light, fingertip/single finger handhold
* lack of frame/connection in the left arm - admit this is not an MJ *habit* but the fact that many MJ leads make little use of the follows left arm means it is still something for many MJ dancers to overcome.
* for more experienced MJ follows I feel that playing with the music sometimes requires different things in WCS than in MJ but can't explain this very well in writing - I just know that some will mark things in the music in ways that I would find fine in MJ but that hinder the flow of the pattern in my WCS

So which of these habits are "necessary" in MJ?

[robd]

So which of these habits are "necessary" in MJ?


Is anything 'necessary' in MJ? Habits are not necessarily the product of necessity.

I would think that to enjoy dancing MJ socially with a wide range of partners a follow will find it easier if she keeps a continual momentum, in particular it will help with their keeping to time (the 'step on every beat' principle) For more experienced follows dancing with decent leaders it's less of an issue.

[Tiggerbabe]

the need to remove certain habits that are necessary in MJ


So which of these habits are "necessary" in MJ?


Is anything 'necessary' in MJ?

Ok, so which is it? :hug: :confused:

[Caro]

So which of these habits are "necessary" in MJ?

I never said they are necessary (best proof is I can still MJ even though I remove the step back :na:), just that they usually are habits of MJ dancers, because that seems to work well in an MJ context.

[robd]

Ok, so which is it? :hug: :confused:

Touche! :blush:

Necessary in my first quote was lazy shorthand.

I'm just trying to highlight habits that I have found apparent in many follows making the transition from MJ to WCS. Given the frequency of occurence I am guessing that there is some benefit for the followers in utilising these habits in their MJ but, yeah, I wouldn't say it was necessary.

[Tiggerbabe]

Touche! :blush:
Sorry, Rob :hug: I was just trying to work it out.

[MartinHarper]

So which of these habits are "necessary" in MJ?

The automatic rock-step on "1" is necessary as a follower as a high proportion of leaders do not explicitly lead that rock-step. The light connection of a Modern Jive follower is necessary, as it enables them to remain safe when following arm leads, which carry an intrinsic risk of yanking. Modern Jive culture requires follows to dance with a wide range of abilities and leading styles.

A West Coast lead in an anchor step is doing pretty much the same thing as a Modern Jive lead using an arm-lead to bring his follower in. It is necessary for a Modern Jive follower to respond to that sensation by moving forwards, as that is what her partner is leading, and she is following his lead.