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Caro
17th-June-2007, 07:09 PM
I had one private in AT by Jenni and Ricardo, and paid 40 pounds for both of them. Jenni revolutionised the way I was dancing within the first minute: she put her index on my center, and said 'lift it'. That alone was worth the money. Amazing the difference it made, and not just in AT but even to the way I was standing and walking. Why teachers don't show you that more often, I have no idea. :confused:

Moved from the "Private lessons" thread - DJ

Astro
17th-June-2007, 07:34 PM
Jenni revolutionised the way I was dancing within the first minute: she put her index on my center, and said 'lift it'. That alone was worth the money. Amazing the difference it made, and not just in AT but even to the way I was standing and walking. Why teachers don't show you that more often, I have no idea. :confused:

Is the centre of gravity 2 inches above the navel? Just checking as I read that somewhere, but a lot of posts are wrong.

Caro
17th-June-2007, 08:19 PM
Is the centre of gravity 2 inches above the navel? Just checking as I read that somewhere, but a lot of posts are wrong.

mine's a bit higher than that (but hey, I'm tall ;) )... it's your solar plexus, just below where your ribs start to meet.
What I didn't mention is that if you stand and do try to 'lift' it, there should also be a contraction of your lower abs at the same time, you should try and 'make them smile'... sounds weird but you'll feel it when it happens...

David Franklin
17th-June-2007, 09:35 PM
mine's a bit higher than that (but hey, I'm tall ;) )... it's your solar plexus, just below where your ribs start to meet. The solar plexus, (or thereabouts) is what dancers generally call your centre, or Skippy Blair calls your centre point of balance.

This annoys physicists and mathematicians no end, because it is (usually) not where your centre of gravity is. Your centre of gravity can actually move depending on the configuration of your body - most notably, your centre of gravity can easily be a point outside your body.

Interestingly, what the dancers call their centre tends to be very close to the "centre of percussion" - in a sense one might consider this is the most "natural" place to apply force to cause someone to step forwards/backwards as the rotational and translational forces balance.

NZ Monkey
17th-June-2007, 09:43 PM
This annoys physicists and mathematicians no end, because it is....snip
Must resist urge to mention leverage and derail the thread.....:devil:

Caro
17th-June-2007, 09:46 PM
The solar plexus, (or thereabouts) is what dancers generally call your centre, or Skippy Blair calls your centre point of balance.

This annoys physicists and mathematicians no end, because it is (usually) not where your centre of gravity is.

that's what I thought as well but wasn't entirely sure, thanks for clarifying DF :flower:

David Bailey
18th-June-2007, 08:12 AM
The solar plexus, (or thereabouts) is what dancers generally call your centre, or Skippy Blair calls your centre point of balance.
Apparently, one should lead from the centre (in AT at least). Which sounds great, until you try it, and then it goes horribly wrong.

Still, I live in hope I'll find it some day.

Andy McGregor
18th-June-2007, 09:26 AM
Interestingly, what the dancers call their centre tends to be very close to the "centre of percussion" - in a sense one might consider this is the most "natural" place to apply force to cause someone to step forwards/backwards as the rotational and translational forces balance.I love the idea of this "centre of percussusion". In the beginners lesson I often talk about keeping the hand low in the open or double hand hold. I tell people that they need to hold their hand low, near to the lady's centre of balance, to ensure that she steps on-balance when you apply tension or compression to her hand. Of course, when you've decided to say that you can no longer teacher the "semi-circle to the left and both step back" - which is a bonus :wink:

bigdjiver
18th-June-2007, 09:37 AM
"... encompassing the range of movement from stillness to highly athletic. The exigencies of the form dictate a mode of movement which is relaxed, constantly aware and prepared, and on-flowing. As a basic focus, the dancers remain in physical touch, mutually supportive and innovative, meditating upon the physical laws relating to their masses: gravity, momentum, inertia and friction. They ... strive to ... meet the constantly changing physical reality with appropriate placement and energy.”

What is contact? :: Dancing with another: the game of life Association for Contact Improvisation (http://www.contactimpro.org/en-article59.html)

David Franklin
18th-June-2007, 09:53 AM
I love the idea of this "centre of percussusion". In the beginners lesson I often talk about keeping the hand low in the open or double hand hold. I tell people that they need to hold their hand low, near to the lady's centre of balance, to ensure that she steps on-balance when you apply tension or compression to her hand. Of course, when you've decided to say that you can no longer teacher the "semi-circle to the left and both step back" - which is a bonus :wink:My personal advice would be that you can talk about "centre" and people won't get confused if you actually mean "dancer's centre" (solar plexus or thereabouts). But if you include the word "balance", then anyone with a decent grounding in mathematics or physics is going to think you mean the centre of gravity (equivalently centre of balance, although that terminology is somewhat passe these days), and get confused. (To show how confusing it is, I'm not actually sure whether you mean "dancer's centre" or "centre of gravity" in your sentence above).

[And to be honest, I wouldn't use "centre of percussion" unless you are standing up in front of a blackboard drawing force diagrams. It is a fairly obscure term even to most physicists I suspect. Certainly I'd never heard of it until DavidB mentioned it in a discussion.]

Andy McGregor
18th-June-2007, 10:57 AM
[And to be honest, I wouldn't use "centre of percussion" unless you are standing up in front of a blackboard drawing force diagrams. It is a fairly obscure term even to most physicists I suspect. Certainly I'd never heard of it until DavidB mentioned it in a discussion.]Don't worry I won't be using the "centre of percussion" in my lessons. I think I use centre of gravity and dancers centre as the same thing. But, all I really do is use this chat as a way of explaining why the guy should adjust the hand-hold so the lady's wrist is slightly lower than her elbow.

Back on topic, I read somewhere about a "centering knob". It was described at the bump in the spine, just below the neck. Pressing this knob straight back helps posture and centering. It works for me.

Raul
18th-June-2007, 11:21 AM
Rodolfo Dinzel talks about the top part of the body being the Dramatic apparatus , the bottom part the Expressive apparatus, with the middle being the dissociation zone. The centre in in the middle of that zone along the vertical equilibrium axis.

All fine in theory, but go find it and when you bend down to look .................... it moves. Elusive little beggar.

David Franklin
18th-June-2007, 11:24 AM
Don't worry I won't be using the "centre of percussion" in my lessons. I think I use centre of gravity and dancers centre as the same thing. But, all I really do is use this chat as a way of explaining why the guy should adjust the hand-hold so the lady's wrist is slightly lower than her elbow. Sorry, but I'm going to be as pedantic here as you are about first move footwork...

Using the term "centre of gravity" when you mean "dancer's centre" (or solar plexus) is wrong. The big problem is that when you use a technical term such as "centre of gravity", then people with a science background will assume the scientific definition applies. It's actually a lot better to use normal language: if you say "centre" everyone knows it's ambiguous, and different people might interpret it in different ways, so they will listen to your clarification about solar plexus (or however you phrase it), and look to see what you actually do. But if you say "centre of gravity", it is completely unambiguous, and a physicist will think "OK, I know what that means". For example, if you say "the lady's wrist should be at the height of her centre of gravity", then he will think you mean roughly hip height. And he probably won't pay much attention to your explanation, or if he does he will think you are the person who has got it wrong.

This isn't just pedantry for the sake of it. There are enough people in dancing with a scientific background that you really do see this causing confusion.

Andy McGregor
18th-June-2007, 11:50 AM
Sorry, but I'm going to be as pedantic here as you are about first move footwork...

Using the term "centre of gravity" when you mean "dancer's centre" (or solar plexus) is wrong. The big problem is that when you use a technical term such as "centre of gravity", then people with a science background will assume the scientific definition applies. It's actually a lot better to use normal language: if you say "centre" everyone knows it's ambiguous, and different people might interpret it in different ways, so they will listen to your clarification about solar plexus (or however you phrase it), and look to see what you actually do. But if you say "centre of gravity", it is completely unambiguous, and a physicist will think "OK, I know what that means". For example, if you say "the lady's wrist should be at the height of her centre of gravity", then he will think you mean roughly hip height. And he probably won't pay much attention to your explanation, or if he does he will think you are the person who has got it wrong.

This isn't just pedantry for the sake of it. There are enough people in dancing with a scientific background that you really do see this causing confusion.I'm not sure where a lady's centre of gravity is. But I take it as read that a guy who can balance a lady above his head on one hand probably knows. I've not really had a problem with people getting this wrong. I always point out where on the lady I'm talking about using my demonstrator: I point to a spot just above her navel. I try to lighten the technical talk by talking about the centre of gravity for a lady being in a very different place from the centres of attention - which are higher at the front and lower at the back.

But DF is right, I guess the centre of gravity is actually lower than the centre I've been talking about. I'm going to need to ponder over what I call it, for the time being I think I'll take DF's suggestion and just call it the Dancer's Centre.

p.s. I didn't know I was being pedantic about the first move footwork. I thought I was being precise :devil:

David Franklin
18th-June-2007, 11:58 AM
p.s. I didn't know I was being pedantic about the first move footwork. I thought I was being precise :devil:Isn't this one of those "irregular adjectives":

I am precise.
You are pedantic.
They are just being difficult for the sake of it.

Andy McGregor
18th-June-2007, 12:16 PM
Isn't this one of those "irregular adjectives":

I am precise.
You are pedantic.
They are just being difficult for the sake of it.


The term, then, is obviously a relative one: my pedantry is your scholarship, his reasonable accuracy, her irreducible minimum of education and someone else’s ignorance.:flower:

JonD
18th-June-2007, 12:27 PM
I am precise.
You are pedantic.
They are just being difficult for the sake of it.
I'm enjoying this debate - informative and amusing! Thanks.

In an effort to confuse the issue, "centre" in AT seems to refer to both the point from which you generate your "intention" as well the point around which your axis revolves, depending on the context in which it is used.

As far as "intention" is concerned - or "leading from your centre" - the exact point from which you generate that energy can vary depending on the embrace you are using. The long and the short seems to be that you generate intention from your centre and it is somewhere close to your solar plexus. In simpler days, up until I'd been dancing AT for about 2 years, I used to believe that it was from slightly above your solar plexus, at the base of the sternum. Then I was introduced to the concept of "leading from your belly button" and, more recently, have been introduced to the idea that you bring your "centre" higher in close embrace and lower in open embrace. About an hour after being introduced to that concept, with my head still reeling, I was advised that it is possible to generate energy from your centre (at whatever height is appropriate) and channel it through another part of your body (in this case the hip) in order to create specific types of movement. When I realised that this strange advice actually works, my head exploded and I gave up trying to understand the dynamics of what is going on.

In AT we're constantly advised to "be centred", to "find your centre". In that context it refers to the point around which your axis rotates - your point of "zero balance" . It's not quite the centre of gravity because there may be other forces acting on you, but it does move relative to what your body is doing.

The "Tango as a way of life and solution to all of the problems of humanity" school of thought would further extend the concept of centre to include your
emotional centre - giving such advice as "you can't be centred in the dance unless you are centred in your life". Personally, I avoid all classes given by folk who subscribe to this belief!

Raul
18th-June-2007, 12:47 PM
As far as "intention" is concerned - or "leading from your centre" - the exact point from which you generate that energy can vary depending on the embrace you are using. The long and the short seems to be that you generate intention from your centre and it is somewhere close to your solar plexus. .....snip... Then I was introduced to the concept of "leading from your belly button" and, more recently, have been introduced to the idea that you bring your "centre" higher in close embrace and lower in open embrace. About an hour after being introduced to that concept, with my head still reeling, I was advised that it is possible to generate energy from your centre (at whatever height is appropriate) and channel it through another part of your body (in this case the hip) in order to create specific types of movement.

Fascinating post JonD

in AT, dancers have the concept of two bodies moving in just one dynamic structure. I am not sure that "leading from your belly button" is something that will take hold in MJ! I find the MJ First Move hold where the leader's right hand is on the follower's waist so unhelpful to the lead and this is called the "Close hold" in MJ (see the thread on First Move!)

Twirly
18th-June-2007, 01:26 PM
I'm enjoying this debate - informative and amusing! Thanks.

:yeah:


I was introduced to the concept of "leading from your belly button" and, more recently, have been introduced to the idea that you bring your "centre" higher in close embrace and lower in open embrace. About an hour after being introduced to that concept, with my head still reeling, I was advised that it is possible to generate energy from your centre (at whatever height is appropriate) and channel it through another part of your body (in this case the hip) in order to create specific types of movement. When I realised that this strange advice actually works, my head exploded and I gave up trying to understand the dynamics of what is going on.

The "Tango as a way of life and solution to all of the problems of humanity" school of thought would further extend the concept of centre to include your
emotional centre - giving such advice as "you can't be centred in the dance unless you are centred in your life". Personally, I avoid all classes given by folk who subscribe to this belief!

Interesting stuff. It sounds quite similar to aspects of some of the spiritual practises I’ve encountered, and does relate to one of the seven chakras – had to look this up, but interestingly it’s the one connected with energy. Even in yoga, if I’m upset about something, I’ll wobble like mad when doing the balancing poses, and I’ve posted elsewhere about the effect of PMS on my dancing ability :sick: This centre is also where energy is generated in practises such as tai chi and qi gong – and channelled through other parts of the body. (Not saying more, as not de-railing the thread here – though would love to see Barry doing this AT training :wink: :devil: )

So far as the difference between the centre of gravity/dancer’s centre, I see what is meant by the difference (though I have little understanding of physics!). Most Ceroc dancers are probably unaware of where their centre of gravity is as they’ve never thought about it. So it would actually be very hard for a lead to be able to tell where it was on the follow – particularly a female follow, as that is going to be very much affected by her shape and size, and possibly with hormonal fluctuations, even by the time of the month. Much easier to identify the dancer’s centre (emotional centre as well) as the solar plexus – it should be fairly constant and obvious. Also easier for the follow to identify. Years of ballet classes as a child and yoga as an adult mean that I’m very aware of this centre – and use it when dancing.

I know that when I’m aware of this centre, I spin/turn better – it’s also worth noting that if you put your head down, as lots of beginners do when spinning, you’ll close off this centre and make spinning more difficult/less accurate.

Raul
18th-June-2007, 01:49 PM
:innocent:

Thank you for clarifying something for me Twirly.

I had been wondering whether the week to week changes in dance responsiveness of one of my regular dance partners were not connected to physical changes. One week light as a feather, one week slow to respond. This is not a subject that you can broach with someone. Maybe i should not be overly critical of my leading ability.

Magic Hans
18th-June-2007, 04:14 PM
I had one private in AT by Jenni and Ricardo, and paid 40 pounds for both of them. Jenni revolutionised the way I was dancing within the first minute: she put her index on my center, and said 'lift it'. That alone was worth the money. Amazing the difference it made, and not just in AT but even to the way I was standing and walking. Why teachers don't show you that more often, I have no idea. :confused:

Moved from the "Private lessons" thread - DJ

Funny you say that. When I did workshops in African dance, I was told to lower my centre!! ... mind you, different centre .... this centre was about one-two inches below the naval! .... reason for this was to discover the hips, and their mobility. As far as chakras go, it would approximate to a far more grounded place to be moving from .... not quite the base chakra, next one up! I guess that's why africa type dancing has a far earthier feel to it!

Yoga poses often talk about lowering one part ... like sinking into the hips, dropping the shoulders but raising another ... maybe lengthening the neck! Can feel a bit wierd and .... errrr ... impossible the first few times!

As for AT, my teaching was to lead from the heart .... which, straight away, gives the mood of that dance! [and the shoulders hold the frame, and will always aim to be parallel, but not necessarily directly facing [might be offset]

!an

JonD
19th-June-2007, 12:55 AM
I am not sure that "leading from your belly button" is something that will take hold in MJ!
The thought that it might is quite disturbing! Mind you, you can use the concept in MJ. For instance, when I want to lead a follower to walk straight backwards - perhaps after a travelling return - I think in terms of projecting my energy from my centre (in this case "low", from the belly button area, as we're in a very open position, quite far apart, with physical contact only through one hand) and this seems to help reinforce the leads given through the hand and by walking forwards. It seems, somehow, to add "power" to the movement while keeping it balanced and avoiding any tendency to look as if you're "over-running" the follower. In general terms, I think that my leading in MJ has improved as a result of using the "leading from your centre" skills that I've learnt in AT; followers pick up on your intention as a result of the way you position your body and use it to project energy. If you want to make your Manhattans strong, powerful and grounded (not faster - different thing) then put some guts into them - change nothing other than thinking of leading them from your belly button, from your guts, as you take the step.


As for AT, my teaching was to lead from the heart .... which, straight away, gives the mood of that dance!
Absolutely! The essential energy of the dance comes from the heart, or should do. It's interesting that you seem to project it more from the loins as you move into open embrace though: what might that tell us about folk who prefer open embrace to close embrace? Perhaps we'd better not explore that thought too much further.

I don't subscribe to the "Shamanic Tango (http://www.i-m-pulse.eclipse.co.uk/page_02.htm)" school, although I must say that Biljana is a very talented dancer and teacher and a lovely person, but I do agree with everyone who has pointed out that your mood, health and self-perception can affect your ability to be balanced in your centre. There is, in my experience, a correlation between centre and the chakras. I also think that, in order to really experience the wonderful connection of AT, you need to be prepared to "open" yourself to your partner - but maybe that's getting a wee bit too philosophical.


This centre is also where energy is generated in practises such as tai chi and qi gong – and channelled through other parts of the body.
I once did a fascinating "Tango and Tai Chi" workshop (Lord, I've done some weird workshops since I started dancing AT!). It was in Barcelona with a guy called Jordi who is quite amazing - a real inspiration. He'd never danced AT but manged to communicate the points of similarity in movement, use of intention, how your mental focus impacts your strength, sensing the way your "partner" is moving etc.. It really was fantastic stuff and, later, during a more traditional AT workshop I was able to lead followers to take steps to the side or backward without any apparent physical or visual lead - the only physical contact between us being the lightest finger tip to finger tip connection of our hands at shoulder height and the followers had their eyes closed. I did that exercise with one of Jordi's Tai Chi students who'd come along to assist in the Tai Chi class and stayed on; the Tai Chi guy was amazed at the way we could lead each other to move, apparently just by the use of mental energy, and ended the exercise by bowing his thanks to me which is a lovely, if unusual, AT memory! Of course there must have been some kind of physical lead but it didn't feel like it.