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Jamie
13th-June-2007, 02:26 AM
What a shame that somebody who is so knowing is going to become a Ceroc clone :angry:

Andy, do you really think I'm going to be a Ceroc clone? :rolleyes:

I don't say baaaa and never will. Just because I'm tagging along with a flock doesn't mean I'm a sheep.

Moved here from the "2nd worst class" thread - DavidJames

David Bailey
13th-June-2007, 04:36 PM
Andy, do you really think I'm going to be a Ceroc clone? :rolleyes:
It's certainly possible to keep your individual style after being CTA-d.

But to be honest, it's not easy.

Ceroc teacher training (AIUI) involves teaching you to do and teach moves in a precise and very strictly-defined way. You don't get much freedom of expression within that context.

And that's actually reasonable - if you learn within a standardised environment, you have to do things in the standard way, otherwise what's the point of standards?

But, there is a tendency for the CTA training to - at least - not help develop individual styles of dancing, because that's not what it's about. At the beginner level, I believe it's about memorising a set of scripts for a set of moves, and being able to deliver those scripts to a class in a confident and entertaining manner.

So, yes, CTA training does tend to produce "clones" - that's kind of the point, because that ensures a minimum standard of teaching.

straycat
13th-June-2007, 04:57 PM
So, yes, CTA training does tend to produce "clones" - that's kind of the point, because that ensures a minimum standard of teaching.

But who are they clones of? Who was the original?** And are they actually being subverted in some strange way so that someday they'll turn and sweep away the remmnants of the old Ceroc republic to make way for a new order?

**Not Jango Fett, I'm presuming

David Bailey
13th-June-2007, 05:01 PM
But who are they clones of? Who was the original?
Dunno, but the women teachers all sound a bit like Janey to me... And they all look a bit like her, now I think about it. And no-one can tell me that Jo's not a spitting image of Linda.


** And are they actually being subverted in some strange way so that someday they'll turn and sweep away the remmnants of the old Ceroc republic to make way for a new order?
Yeah, probably. Or maybe that's already happened. :D

robd
15th-June-2007, 01:00 PM
But, there is a tendency for the CTA training to - at least - not help develop individual styles of dancing, because that's not what it's about. At the beginner level, I believe it's about memorising a set of scripts for a set of moves, and being able to deliver those scripts to a class in a confident and entertaining manner.

So, yes, CTA training does tend to produce "clones" - that's kind of the point, because that ensures a minimum standard of teaching.

Are we talking about the way they deliver teaching or their 'individual styles of dancing' because I certainly don't see clones when I think of the dancing of
Marc Forster, Paul Farrell, Franck Pauly, Simon Rich, Paul Harris, Alex Faulkner, Alec Myers, Dale, Russell Saxby and Bill Cooper to give a starter for ten, all of whom are CTA trained (both past and more recently) and who continue to teach for Ceroc (albeit Paul F is teaching WCS rather than MJ). I am not saying they are all great dancers but they're certainly not clones.

David Bailey
15th-June-2007, 07:20 PM
Are we talking about the way they deliver teaching
Yes :)

With quite a lot of experience of attending lessons, I can definitely say that the Ceroc beginner lessons taught by most Ceroc teachers are very much the same. Which is almost the raison d'etre of Ceroc, so it's not surprising.

When you have to memorise the exact literal script to describe each move, then you're not going to be able to deviate much, after all.

The intermediate classes do allow some creativity, but you're still quite constrained as a teacher, in that you have to teach 3 / 4 moves, in 30-35 minutes, out of a predefined set. And you have to meet the expectations of a class who have experience varying between 6 weeks ( :rolleyes: ) and 10 years, so generally the 6-weekers win out in that sense.


or their 'individual styles of dancing' because I certainly don't see clones when I think of the dancing of
Marc Forster, Paul Farrell, Franck Pauly, Simon Rich, Paul Harris, Alex Faulkner, Alec Myers, Dale, Russell Saxby and Bill Cooper to give a starter for ten, all of whom are CTA trained (both past and more recently) and who continue to teach for Ceroc (albeit Paul F is teaching WCS rather than MJ). I am not saying they are all great dancers but they're certainly not clones.
Dancing, not so much - although I've heard anecdotal evidence from a few Ceroc teachers that CTA training did tend to make their dancing "uniform", simply because to pass the exams, they had to dance a certain way.

My personal opinion, based on experience of dancing with female Ceroc teachers, is that the individualism of your dance style will take a hit immediately after CTA, but that you'll be able to re-develop it after a while, given sufficient effort. But that's just an opinion, based on more limited experience.

Which is not too surprising - I don't think (and feel free to correct me) that there's anything in CTA training which helps dancers develop their dance styles? ANd again, why should there be?

Raul
16th-June-2007, 01:36 AM
When you have to memorise the exact literal script to describe each move, then you're not going to be able to deviate much, after all.

Dancing, not so much - although I've heard anecdotal evidence from a few Ceroc teachers that CTA training did tend to make their dancing "uniform", simply because to pass the exams, they had to dance a certain way.



I have been told exactly the same thing by a close friend who has recently been through the mill. I cannot mention the name for obvious reasons and therefore you have to take what was said to me for what you think it's worth - In the first days you are required to forget all about your personal style and erase it completely from your dancing. Then the training starts, the teaching is very specific and the exams exacting, you deviate and you fail.

David Bailey
16th-June-2007, 09:01 AM
I have been told exactly the same thing by a close friend who has recently been through the mill. I cannot mention the name for obvious reasons and therefore you have to take what was said to me for what you think it's worth - In the first days you are required to forget all about your personal style and erase it completely from your dancing. Then the training starts, the teaching is very specific and the exams exacting, you deviate and you fail.
Yes, that's pretty much what I heard too.

And again, there's nothing wrong with that - but it's not aimed at developing individual style, and in fact individual styles make it more difficult to pass.

Gus
16th-June-2007, 02:25 PM
Yes, that's pretty much what I heard too.

And again, there's nothing wrong with that - but it's not aimed at developing individual style, and in fact individual styles make it more difficult to pass.Its right to an extent. But after 6 months to a year after qualifying your style re-emerges. The key thing is that when you demonstrate on stage you need to take out as much style as possible and demonstrate a 'vanilla' style so you don't confuse your class ... unless you are specifically teaching style points.

In the long term the CTA training works ... the existence of so many dancers in the UK is a testament to an effective teaching model. SURE, its got its limitations but to make the cost-model work, its got to be based on a homogonous approach. Trying to customise to all the different needs of your dancers is simply not cost effective.

David Bailey
16th-June-2007, 02:50 PM
Its right to an extent. But after 6 months to a year after qualifying your style re-emerges.
Assuming it was there in the first place of course :devil:

Andy McGregor
16th-June-2007, 03:54 PM
Andy, do you really think I'm going to be a Ceroc clone? :rolleyes:

I don't say baaaa and never will. Just because I'm tagging along with a flock doesn't mean I'm a sheep.

Moved here from the "2nd worst class" thread - DavidJamesI am pretty sure that Jamie's dancing will become standardised by the assimilation into the collective. He will no longer be Jamie, he will be 326 of 400. All the same, all saying the same thing and working towards domination of the galaxy.

And the problem is that there's almost no going back. In the history of the galaxy there's only a handful of people who have left the collective. It can be achieved by the neutralization of the upper-spinal column neurotransceiver. The most famous to receive this was seven of nine. And then she was left with odd facial ornamentation - and a figure to die for. Go here (http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/series/VOY/character/1112406.html) to see how Jamie could end up looking.

I recommend that before Jamie signs and undergoes the programming he should ask how easy it would be to go back. I think he will find it's almost impossible.

Cruella
16th-June-2007, 04:08 PM
Marc Forster, Paul Farrell, Franck Pauly, Simon Rich, Paul Harris, Alex Faulkner, Alec Myers, Dale, Russell Saxby and Bill Cooper ...snip. I am not saying they are all great dancers but they're certainly not clones.
If you're not saying they are all great dancers, which ones are? Or more importantly, which ones aren't?

Gus
16th-June-2007, 05:23 PM
And the problem is that there's almost no going back. In the history of the galaxy there's only a handful of people who have left the collective. Andy ... if you are alluding to a 'no escape for the CTA' ... think you are failry massively wrong. During the s'summer of discontent' in 2001 around 7 instructors left ..... and many more have left since. Being part of the CTA is not a life sentence.

ANd ... back to thread ... nothing changes the fact that the CTA are the largest group of professionaly trained MJ instructors in the UK. I don't know how they compete to your graduates, but the CTA standard is FAR preferable to the standard of most instructors in the N West, with the exception of Paula at Chester.

Andy McGregor
16th-June-2007, 05:42 PM
Being part of the CTA is not a life sentence.Not life perhaps. It's more like joining the army than going to prison. AFAIK you can leave, but only after you've served your time.



ANd ... back to thread ... nothing changes the fact that the CTA are the largest group of professionaly trained MJ instructors in the UK. I don't know how they compete to your graduates, but the CTA standard is FAR preferable to the standard of most instructors in the N West, with the exception of Paula at Chester.I have so few graduates I'd not like to compare. Most of the people going through my training programme are still in their apprentice phase of training. The difference is that I have no objection to them teaching where they like. There is one jive organisation that I have told them all I don't approve of. Even then, I've simply told them that they are welcome to teach for that particular organisation, they just won't ever be asked to teach for me. And, before you ask, it's personal, he was rude, dishonest, malicious and abusive about my wife in an email he sent to all of his dancers :angry:

Jamie
17th-June-2007, 11:16 PM
{snip stuff about not keeping your style after being ceroc'd}
So, yes, CTA training does tend to produce "clones" - that's kind of the point, because that ensures a minimum standard of teaching.

Yes I intend to teach as a Ceroc Clone, that's the point isn't it? Be professionally trained to teach "Ceroc". However, I do not intend on teaching a Columbian by telling people to use a verbal signal for example :rolleyes: - which is where the first post (mine) stemmed from. I do not intend on being a clone in that I will dance a cirtain way or even look a certain way. Which brings me to...


{snip}
He will no longer be Jamie, he will be 326 of 400.
{snip load of bollox}

Then, Andy, you will be completely shocked to see that I haven't changed when I've been Ceroc'd.. I will be Jamie, with the ability to teach Ceroc. :nice:

Gus
17th-June-2007, 11:20 PM
Yes I intend to teach as a Ceroc Clone, that's the point isn't it? Be professionally trained to teach "Ceroc". However, I do not intend on teaching a Columbian by telling people to use a verbal signal for example :rolleyes: But if the Ceroc (tm) script says give a verbal ... then you have to teach it with a verbal ... or you won't be teaching it the Ceroc way ...... isn't that so?

fletch
17th-June-2007, 11:28 PM
But if the Ceroc (tm) script says give a verbal ... then you have to teach it with a verbal ... or you won't be teaching it the Ceroc way ...... isn't that so?


what does this meen :confused:


and before you say verbal is talking yes I know that, but why is it a problem :blush:

Gus
17th-June-2007, 11:33 PM
what does this meen :confused:


and before you say verbal is talking yes I know that, but why is it a problem :blush:When I did CTA all those many years ago I seem to remember that the 'official' signal for this move was to whisper 'Columbian' to your partner. This would help her to do the move. If I understood Jamie correctly, and I apologise if I've got it wrong, he was suggesting he would teach the move as he saw fit and maybe not follow the script.

Jamie
17th-June-2007, 11:37 PM
When I did CTA all those many years ago I seem to remember that the 'official' signal for this move was to whisper 'Columbian' to your partner. This would help her to do the move. If I understood Jamie correctly, and I apologise if I've got it wrong, he was suggesting he would teach the move as he saw fit and maybe not follow the script.

Well, firstly, I'd get in contact with someone in the know, ask if the verbal signal is "Ceroc" then if told "yes" then I'd put forward my idea of teaching the move rather than using a signal. If my idea got knocked back then I would not teach the move. I'm not saying I know better than Ceroc, but it would go against my own reasoning so I wouldn't do it based on that. :nice:

Andy McGregor
18th-June-2007, 12:20 AM
I'm not saying I know better than Ceroc, but it would go against my own reasoning so I wouldn't do it based on that. :nice:Once you've joined the collective you have to give up your own reasoning to the uniform group. You must speak with one voice, and, if the voice says "Columbian" you must say it too...

Jamie
18th-June-2007, 12:30 AM
Once you've joined the collective you have to give up your own reasoning to the uniform group. You must speak with one voice, and, if the voice says "Columbian" you must say it too...

Clearly they've never had to deal with me before :wink:

FirstMove
18th-June-2007, 12:30 AM
To what extent is the Ceroc movebook really that prescriptive? My local teachers blatantly make up and alter the moves that they teach and I don't hear the sirens of CerocFuzz rushing to the scene to escort them from the premises.

Andy McGregor
18th-June-2007, 12:35 AM
Clearly they've never had to deal with me before :wink:I think that, in the many years the CTA have been running, they've seen it all. You join the collective you do what they say. As I said, ask them how you get out of the CTA if you decide you'd like to leave and teach for other people. Do not sign until you're satisfied with their answer.

p.s. Our next teacher's training course starts soon. You can teach for whoever you like (with one exception) once you've completed the course. Or you can sign away your next few years...

Raul
18th-June-2007, 12:43 AM
Yes I intend to teach as a Ceroc Clone, that's the point isn't it? Be professionally trained to teach "Ceroc". However, I do not intend on teaching a Columbian by telling people to use a verbal signal for example :rolleyes: - which is where the first post (mine) stemmed from. I do not intend on being a clone in that I will dance a cirtain way or even look a certain way. Which brings me to...



Then, Andy, you will be completely shocked to see that I haven't changed when I've been Ceroc'd.. I will be Jamie, with the ability to teach Ceroc. :nice:

It is not for me or anyone else for that matter, to tell Jamie what to do or to make predictions on what he will become.

If he has decided to become a Ceroc Teacher then we should support him in his venture. It was ok to discuss what was involved but IMHO it is an entirely different matter to egg him in a way that may influence negatively something that he is taking seriously.

Go Jamie. You do what you think is required to achieve your aim, conform if you think you have to, do not be influenced by what anybody else thinks, it is what you think that really matters. By thinking and being your own person, your personal style will remerge more quickly.

Jamie
18th-June-2007, 12:45 AM
I think that, in the many years the CTA have been running, they've seen it all. You join the collective you do what they say. As I said, ask them how you get out of the CTA if you decide you'd like to leave and teach for other people. Do not sign until you're satisfied with their answer.

p.s. Our next teacher's training course starts soon. You can teach for whoever you like (with one exception) once you've completed the course. Or you can sign away your next few years...

Did the wink not give it away? :whistle:

I haven't as of yet "signed" however I will not sign unless I am happy... That's what signing's all about isn't it? Agreeing and compromising? I might be 21, young and stupid, but I'd like to think I've got a bit of a clue as to what I'm letting myself in for, I like to do my homework. Can we now deviate from the subject of me being CTA trained? I've made my decision and I'd like you to respect that. I don't see any fuss over other people who've decided to be CTA trained... Even I know I'm not that interesting... :rolleyes:

fletch
18th-June-2007, 12:47 AM
It is not for me or anyone else for that matter, to tell Jamie what to do or to make predictions on what he will become.

If he has decided to become a Ceroc Teacher then we should support him in his venture. It was ok to discuss what was involved but IMHO it is an entirely different matter to egg him in a way that may influence negatively something that he is taking seriously.

Go Jamie. You do what you think is required to achieve your aim, conform if you think you have to, do not be influenced by what anybody else thinks, it is what you think that really matters. By thinking and being your own person, your personal style will remerge more quickly.

you have to support yourself :flower:

IMO your a true star and you will shine though no matter what :worthy:

fletch
18th-June-2007, 12:50 AM
Did the wink not give it away? :whistle:

I haven't as of yet "signed" however I will not sign unless I am happy... That's what signing's all about isn't it? Agreeing and compromising? I might be 21, young and stupid, but I'd like to think I've got a bit of a clue as to what I'm letting myself in for, I like to do my homework. Can we now deviate from the subject of me being CTA trained? I've made my decision and I'd like you to respect that. I don't see any fuss over other people who've decided to be CTA trained... Even I know I'm not that interesting... :rolleyes:


your special that's why :clap:

pain in the arse, :wink: but special :respect:

David Bailey
18th-June-2007, 09:19 AM
Once you've joined the collective you have to give up your own reasoning to the uniform group. You must speak with one voice, and, if the voice says "Columbian" you must say it too...
Good grief, Andy, give it a rest, OK? :rolleyes:

Some of us (well, one of us) are trying to have a semi-serious discussion about this.

Ceroc aren't "worse" than any other MJ organisation - they're just bigger, is all.

If you want to contribute, then by all means tell us how your training programme works, but don't diss Ceroc all the time, it's boring.


To what extent is the Ceroc movebook really that prescriptive? My local teachers blatantly make up and alter the moves that they teach and I don't hear the sirens of CerocFuzz rushing to the scene to escort them from the premises.
There is a literal script describing each move, for the beginner's moves; learning and memorising that script is part of the training process.

I don't know how detailed the descriptions / prescriptions are for the intermediates' classes - as I said, the teachers get much more flexibility in what they can teach. But they're still constrained in how they can teach it - I dunno to what level they're constrained however.

David Bailey
18th-June-2007, 09:23 AM
Yes I intend to teach as a Ceroc Clone, that's the point isn't it? Be professionally trained to teach "Ceroc".
Indeed.


However, I do not intend on teaching a Columbian by telling people to use a verbal signal for example :rolleyes: - which is where the first post (mine) stemmed from. I do not intend on being a clone in that I will dance a cirtain way or even look a certain way.
Whilst I completely agree that this thread shouldn't be all about you (:) ), I'm not sure about this last point. For example, if a Ceroc Teacher, as part of their duties, works the room and dances with beginners, shouldn't they dance in The Ceroc Way, simply to avoid confusion?

On the other hand, Mike Ellard's never done that... :rofl:

Franck
18th-June-2007, 09:59 AM
There is a literal script describing each move, for the beginner's moves; learning and memorising that script is part of the training process.It is indeed, and a crucial part of teacher training is to be consistent in the way you teach Beginners. Many competent dancers have forgotten how they learnt to dance as beginners and would end up focusing on what seems important to them now. Learning a clear, concise method and format for teaching Beginners classes ensures that you cover all bases.

I don't know how detailed the descriptions / prescriptions are for the intermediates' classes - as I said, the teachers get much more flexibility in what they can teach. But they're still constrained in how they can teach it - I dunno to what level they're constrained however.All moves are scripted for reference (to help consistency in describing similar positions and movements across the 600+ moves) and we have access to videos of each moves. Beyond that, it is up to each teacher to select, present and teach the move. Teachers (after they have completed their initial training) can adapt moves and teach as they believe will benefit their class most. I can't remember the last time I taught any signal for example, and all the moves I teach are focusing on the lead/follow concepts needed to make them work (including the Columbian).

Currently, Ceroc give a Beginners DVD to all new members, so having a consistent teaching style makes sense. Beyond Beginners stage, Ceroc have demonstrably developed new concepts in teaching styles (Blues, WCS, Utopia, Focus, Cuban Blues, Coasters, etc...), there is plenty of scope for any CTA graduate to improve and make their mark.

Andy McGregor
18th-June-2007, 10:44 AM
Good grief, Andy, give it a rest, OK? :rolleyes:

Some of us (well, one of us) are trying to have a semi-serious discussion about this.

Ceroc aren't "worse" than any other MJ organisation - they're just bigger, is all.

If you want to contribute, then by all means tell us how your training programme works, but don't diss Ceroc all the time, it's boring.Think I'm not serious?

I've no plans to tell the Forum exactly how my training programme works. Not because it's secret, just because it would take too long to write and be too boring.

I didn't think I was "dissing" Ceroc. I'm just reminding Jamie that he needs to read the small print. Becoming a Ceroc teacher and joining the CTA opens many doors, but it also closes others. And that is the aspect of CTA training I'm debating. Isn't CTA training the subject of this thread?

And, are Ceroc "worse" than any other MJ organisation? I suppose it depends on how you look at it. Are there any other MJ organisations that control their part-time staff to the extent that Ceroc do? Do Blitz and MoJive have the same arrangements to tie-in their teachers and DJs? I've no idea. What I do know is that there are many other MJ organisations that do not tie-in their teachers at all - but they don't train the teachers in the first place.

David Bailey
18th-June-2007, 10:52 AM
Think I'm not serious?
Sometimes it's difficult to tell if you're being serious or extracting the michael. Which is a trait you and woodface occasionally share, so that's something to think about... :devil:


I didn't think I was "dissing" Ceroc.
Well I thought you were - and I don't care about Ceroc - so I imagine others probably feel even more so.


And, are Ceroc "worse" than any other MJ organisation? I suppose it depends on how you look at it.
I look at it as a dancer, first foremost and always. But this is all off-topic.

Raul
18th-June-2007, 10:58 AM
Completely off thread.

For some totally weird reason i am thinking of these endless wars in countries where some people believe that they have the total truth and allow for no other "nonsense". I am also thinkng of child soldiers.

Andy McGregor
18th-June-2007, 11:02 AM
I look at it as a dancer, first foremost and always. But this is all off-topic.Yes, it is off-topic. This thread is about teaching for Ceroc. And I'm introducing to the discussion the aspect of committing to teach for Ceroc that means you will restricted to teaching only for Ceroc.

Andy McGregor
18th-June-2007, 11:07 AM
Completely off thread.

For some totally weird reason i am thinking of these endless wars in countries where some people believe that they have the total truth and allow for no other "nonsense". I am also thinkng of child soldiers.Quite right. It is completely off thread.

But the comparision is a valid one. This particular endless war requires two "child soldiers" for it to work. I find that I'm usually the sound of one hand clapping ...

paul stevo
18th-June-2007, 12:26 PM
Am I right in thinking there is a clause in the cta contract which says, you can`t teach for any other organisation for 1 year once you leave the ceroc company. How many teachers once receiving a regular income from ceroc would be able to live without their money once tied in?

Spiky Steve
18th-June-2007, 01:37 PM
Yes, that's pretty much what I heard too.

And again, there's nothing wrong with that - but it's not aimed at developing individual style, and in fact individual styles make it more difficult to pass.

I think it's great that the beginners moves are tought in a standard way.

However I do not see that teachers are clones arfer that stage. If they are then why do people prefer one teacher to another? How can one teacher teach and dance dips and drops and another teacher not dance or teach them at all. I see a vast range within the teachers, their teaching and their dancing.:respect:

If fact if they all danced the same then surely it would be impossible to pick between them at competitions. :rolleyes:

Steve

Chef
18th-June-2007, 01:41 PM
Beyond Beginners stage, Ceroc have demonstrably developed new concepts in teaching styles (Blues, WCS, Utopia, Focus, Cuban Blues, Coasters, etc...), there is plenty of scope for any CTA graduate to improve and make their mark.

you are going to have to excuse my ignorance because I only have experience of what is happened in the south of England, here but from what I have seen,

Blues - Orinionally part of the LIndy Hop scene but taught and developed within the MJ scene by Nigel and Nina for at least 6years before blues was even a twinkle in Cerocs Eye.

WCS - The first time that I saw thins introduced into the MJ scene was when RebelRoc (aquired 2 years later by Ceroc) invited Robert Cordoba and Deborah Szekely over to teach and perform at their 2003 Rebel Yell event. Developement in the UK was done by Paul Warden and Catriona Wiles at Jive Bug for a couple of years before Ceroc partially aquired that organisation.

Utopia - A fusion of latin, WCS, and generally chilled out music. Orgionally done By Tobe Wan Kenobe at Funky Lush at Kent house in Hammersmith on a monday at Jango before striking out as the seperate entity of Funky Lush for at least a year before Utopia hit the scene.

Focus Workshops - Aside from the fact that Nigel and Nina have been teaching connection, lead and follow, musicality workshops for at least 5 years to my knowledge both Francks and Nigel and Nina workshops can hardly claim to be developed to have national coverage.

Cuban Blues - This is something that AFAIK was developed by Marc Foster and Rachel and is unique to them. The encouragement that Ceroc has given to them allws them to claim that Ceroc has developed it.

Coasters - I have no first hand knowledge of this but have been informed that is the same as the Smooth Jive that Dance rivieria have been teaching since at least June 2006 and is essentially bringing principles of WCS to MJ.

Being a scientist I am very careful about the distinction between developing something new and origional and looking at what other people are doing and calling it something differentwhen you do it So if someone can let me know what Ceroc has developed that is new and origional I would be most grateful to be properly informed.

Andy McGregor
18th-June-2007, 01:43 PM
Am I right in thinking there is a clause in the cta contract which says, you can`t teach for any other organisation for 1 year once you leave the ceroc company. How many teachers once receiving a regular income from ceroc would be able to live without their money once tied in?If there is I can't see how anybody would be stupid enough to sign. No employer expects this without paying their employee to be on "gardening leave". And then it's only for the required notice period.

Is anybody that's prepared to post able to confirm this?

Franck
18th-June-2007, 01:48 PM
Being a scientist I am very careful about the distinction between developing something new and origional and looking at what other people are doing and calling it something differentwhen you do it So if someone can let me know what Ceroc has developed that is new and origional I would be most grateful to be properly informed.My apologies, I never meant to imply Ceroc invented any of these things, simply stating that many Ceroc teachers have introduced and developed the above concepts in their teaching, via workshops, week-enders and Special events. My post was to emphasize that Ceroc teachers are not forced to become clones, and indeed (once confident and experienced enough) encouraged to widen their teaching portfolio.

David Bailey
18th-June-2007, 02:06 PM
Am I right in thinking there is a clause in the cta contract which says, you can`t teach for any other organisation for 1 year once you leave the ceroc company. How many teachers once receiving a regular income from ceroc would be able to live without their money once tied in?
It's quite likely there are "restrictions of trade" contracts, but AFAIK the most restrictions are those placed on newly-qualified teachers by their spnsoring franchisee, who understandably want a return on their investment.

CTA training costs several grand I believe, and as the franchisee has to shell out for this, it's not unreasonable that they expect "their" teacher to work for them and them alone for a certain amount of time.

As for "restrictions of trade", one only needs to look at Simon Borland to see how effective those are... :devil:

David Bailey
18th-June-2007, 02:14 PM
I think it's great that the beginners moves are tought in a standard way.

However I do not see that teachers are clones arfer that stage.
The "clones" thing is both a simplification and an exaggeration.

However, if you're intensively trained (and CTA training is indeed intensive) to deliver lessons in an exact way, then the delivery does kind of all sound the same. Which is largely the point, of course.


If they are then why do people prefer one teacher to another?
Personal preferences? Hair styles? Voices? Who knows?

But I'd be amazed if people preferred one newly-qualified teacher to another based on their teaching technique, because there's very little to choose between them.


How can one teacher teach and dance dips and drops and another teacher not dance or teach them at all. I see a vast range within the teachers, their teaching and their dancing.:respect:
With enough experience, teachers develop their own expertise and specialities. But CTA training, by itself, does nothing to help develop these individual traits, and arguably makes it more difficult to do so.

Which was my initial point.


If fact if they all danced the same then surely it would be impossible to pick between them at competitions. :rolleyes:
Again, see the "simplification" comment. And I was talking mainly about the teaching rather than the dancing.

Raul
18th-June-2007, 02:15 PM
My apologies, I never meant to imply Ceroc invented any of these things, simply stating that many Ceroc teachers have introduced and developed the above concepts in their teaching, via workshops, week-enders and Special events. My post was to emphasize that Ceroc teachers are not forced to become clones, and indeed (once confident and experienced enough) encouraged to widen their teaching portfolio.

I did not read your original post as implying that either.

It would appear that although the CTA training is to develop consistency to teach beginners, many Ceroc Teachers are encouraged to bring other styles within the Ceroc "stable". e.g. Maja - latin; Val and Dave - Blues.
If it is a style with a clear identity, rather than just a personal style, it will probably get promoted. It seems to me that this is ideal for people with special dancing talent looking for a break/backing.

Cruella
18th-June-2007, 03:12 PM
your special that's why :clap:

:

Needs?

FirstMove
18th-June-2007, 03:47 PM
There is a literal script describing each move, for the beginner's moves; learning and memorising that script is part of the training process.

One of my friends is working on her teaching exams as a ballroom teacher. The first dance you must pass of the ten is Waltz. Once you've paid up to start the assessment process, the first thing you get through the post is a big book describing exactly how to teach Waltzing, including a script.

The terminology to be used whilst dancing as lead and as follow and the information to be included is carefully defined. The teacher has a certain amount of choice about how to construct sentences from the terminology, but typically learning the example script is considered the quickest way to pass.

The contents of the teaching book is as closely guarded as the CTA moves book.

Gus
18th-June-2007, 07:21 PM
Am I right in thinking there is a clause in the cta contract which says, you can`t teach for any other organisation for 1 year once you leave the ceroc company. How many teachers once receiving a regular income from ceroc would be able to live without their money once tied in?In the old days ... most of them! A few years back the majority of insructors were (seemed to be?) professionals ... the money paid would buy a few pints but it was no more than chump change. I don't know if there has been a big change wrt this as younger instructors appear ... but most of the Ceroc instructors I know deffo don't need the cash.