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Ghost
15th-June-2007, 07:33 PM
I was discussing the "Always say Yes" culture wih a non-Forumite yesterday and it struck me that there may be an important part missing

"Go and ask the better dancers to dance" is good advice, but should it have something added like "but if they ask you to stop gripping or yanking, please do as they say". Likewise should the "Please dance with the beginners, remember we were all beginners once" spiel after the Int class have something like "but if they're doing something painful, please as them to stop"

I've noticed a lot of dancers seem to feel that they have to suffer in silence for the 3 minute track. Eventually they reach a breaking point and just stop dancing with beginners, not because "beginners aren't good enough", but simply self protection :tears: As it stands you don't know how a beginner is going to react to being asked to stop yanking etc. Whereas if it was made clear from the start, things might be better.

Just the beginnings of an idea - can anyone make anything useful of it that might actually get implemented :flower:

ducasi
15th-June-2007, 10:19 PM
There's some things I will ask beginners to do differently, and there's some things I won't.

In the former category are things like gripping, and maybe yanking (though I don't tend to see that in beginners much.) These behaviours need to be corrected before they become in-grained.

In the later are things like poor connection and anticipation, as these are normal problems that most beginners go through as they learn. (I will however, occasionally lead moves which show up the problems if I think my partner is at a stage where they should become more aware of them.)

Ghost
15th-June-2007, 11:22 PM
There's some things I will ask beginners to do differently, and there's some things I won't.

In the former category are things like gripping, and maybe yanking (though I don't tend to see that in beginners much.) These behaviours need to be corrected before they become in-grained.

In the later are things like poor connection and anticipation, as these are normal problems that most beginners go through as they learn. (I will however, occasionally lead moves which show up the problems if I think my partner is at a stage where they should become more aware of them.)
:yeah:
The problem is going by my own experience, posts here and generally chatting to people, that a lot of people are uncomfortable asking beginners to stop gripping, yanking etc - ie the painful stuff rather than technical stuff like poor connection. I'm wondering if it's possible to change that aspect of the Ceroc ethos.

nebula
16th-June-2007, 12:54 AM
:yeah:
The problem is going by my own experience, posts here and generally chatting to people, that a lot of people are uncomfortable asking beginners to stop gripping, yanking etc - ie the painful stuff rather than technical stuff like poor connection. I'm wondering if it's possible to change that aspect of the Ceroc ethos.
I did suffer :sad: - but since making the transition to dancing the men's part in the beginners class I find it much easier to say uncomfortable things. If it hurts - I tell them :devil: ! Simply because I might end up with the same beginner for the first freestyle, and it's better to tell them during the lesson when they actually will listen to you :really: , than try to correct it in the middle of the dance floor with dimmed lights and loud music.
Surprisingly:clap: , this also liberated my silent suffering when being hurt by the beginner leaders.

Freudian Hips
16th-June-2007, 08:51 AM
I will always try to tell someone if they are hurting me now (having initially suffered in silence for my first year of ceroc). With beginners, I try to say things like "that was great, you don't grip too hard or use your thumbs". They will then ask about thumbs etc and they quickly understand the problem. I also use my loose ligaments, double jointedness to remind people to treat partners hands with respect :respect: Dancers whom I know well get shown very little mercy :kiss: :hug: :kiss: because I love them dearly and know they really don't want to damage anyone! I also expect them to tell me if I am causing them harm :flower:

Astro
16th-June-2007, 03:30 PM
I did suffer :sad: - but since making the transition to dancing the men's part in the beginners class I find it much easier to say uncomfortable things. If it hurts - I tell them :devil: ! Simply because I might end up with the same beginner for the first freestyle, and it's better to tell them during the lesson when they actually will listen to you :really: , than try to correct it in the middle of the dance floor with dimmed lights and loud music.
Surprisingly:clap: , this also liberated my silent suffering when being hurt by the beginner leaders.
Good work.:respect: :respect: :respect:

As an ordinary female punter I don't like to say anything. I try to avoid these guys or say no as it's just too painful. I've even ceased attending classes to avoid them.

I'm not talking about beginners(some beginners are great to dance with), I'm talking about guys who have been dancing around 2 years or more.

I was talking to a male taxi recently, asking why they don't sort these pain inflicting dancers out. He said the males don't know about them, it's the female teachers and taxis whose job it is to correct the men.
So I said, well why don't they then? Are female teachers and taxis too polite to correct them, or are these pesistant yankers, jerkers and clawers too set in their ways to listen?


I will always try to tell someone if they are hurting me now (having initially suffered in silence for my first year of ceroc). With beginners, I try to say things like "that was great, you don't grip too hard or use your thumbs". They will then ask about thumbs etc and they quickly understand the problem. I also use my loose ligaments, double jointedness to remind people to treat partners hands with respect :respect: Dancers whom I know well get shown very little mercy :kiss: :hug: :kiss: because I love them dearly and know they really don't want to damage anyone! I also expect them to tell me if I am causing them harm :flower:

We women need more protectoresses like you.:respect: :respect: :respect:

nebula
16th-June-2007, 06:18 PM
Good work.:respect: :respect: :respect:
I'm not talking about beginners(some beginners are great to dance with), I'm talking about guys who have been dancing around 2 years or more.

Unfortunately, here I still mostly keep silent. It doesn't feel like it's my place or job to correct dancers that are set in their ways for - as you said - 2 years or more. Generally, as they don't lead "good feeling" dances anyway, I simply try not to dance with them that often... :rolleyes:

Astro
17th-June-2007, 08:08 PM
Unfortunately, here I still mostly keep silent. It doesn't feel like it's my place or job to correct dancers that are set in their ways for - as you said - 2 years or more. Generally, as they don't lead "good feeling" dances anyway, I simply try not to dance with them that often... :rolleyes:

These guys have obviously slipped through the net.
I imagine they would be mortified if someone told them they have bad technique at this stage.
Meanwhile we ladies have to suffer. I think the "don't say no rule" can be morally ignored in these cases.
I have never seen it, but perhaps we need more female teachers like Catronia Wiles with her "death stare".

nebula
17th-June-2007, 09:25 PM
These guys have obviously slipped through the net.
I imagine they would be mortified if someone told them they have bad technique at this stage.
Meanwhile we ladies have to suffer. I think the "don't say no rule" can be morally ignored in these cases.
I have never seen it, but perhaps we need more female teachers like Catronia Wiles with her "death stare".
I think I might have my own version of .. death ... jerk... :blush:
If they hurt my fingers I wiggle my hand and if they don't get the hint, I jerk it out. At which point they usually try to pretend that it was me losing the hand - "Oh, I almost lost you there" kind of remark. To which I - usually - reply "I have a paper cut in the most unfortunate place - right on the joint of my finger, and it hurt when you gripped it". :wink: Does the trick, to the point that I am not even asked to produce the evidence of a papercut!:D

Lee Bartholomew
18th-June-2007, 10:01 AM
mmmm....

Tough one isn't it. Do you suffer, do you tell them and potentially upset them or do you not dance with them.

Which one is the lesser of three evils?

I started off with trying the first one, just dancing with them and putting up with the pain. Two dislocations of the fingers later I decided to try the second, telling them.

Problem with telling beginners is if they dont come back for the second week you wonder if it's something you said. when I started dancing the week after my second dislocation, I told a beginner not to grip my fingers when turning (which is what caused it) and she got really "well I don't know what im ment to be doing do I" huffing and puffing at me. This happened a few times with them. They take it as a personal thing. They have come in to something where everyone seems really good and they take it as an insult. Ob it's only a small percentage but it still makes a difference.

Now I do the thrid one. Just avoid dancing dancing with them as much as poss. I know it's abit hot shotty, but I would rather spend my £7's worth enjoying my dances with people I want to dance with and without worrying if I will get injured again. Teaching beginners is not my job, but I will always offer them help and advice if it is asked for.

Of course if I get asked to dance with them I will. Some of my fave dances have been with beginners and it great to dance with one over the months and watch them develop.

Little Em
18th-June-2007, 12:55 PM
When i am dancing with beginners - you do have to be gentle with them :nice:

Its often not what you say but how you say it - I try and say positive things to them too and if i need to explain something like not gripping on - ill try and explain it in a way so that its a benefit to them

i.e, "if you loosen your fingers you will be able to turn a lot easier"
rather than...
"dont grip on it hurts the men"

Its how you speak to people - if you haven really made eye contact or haven spoken throughout the whole dance then you say something like "your not meant to b gripping on" then of course they will be huffy.

If you have something to say to beginners turn the negative into a positive from their POV.

Thats how I do things....I sure some agree and some disagree! :wink:
x

Ghost
18th-June-2007, 12:59 PM
mmmm....

Tough one isn't it. Do you suffer, do you tell them and potentially upset them or do you not dance with them.

:yeah:


Problem with telling beginners is if they dont come back for the second week you wonder if it's something you said. when I started dancing the week after my second dislocation, I told a beginner not to grip my fingers when turning (which is what caused it) and she got really "well I don't know what im ment to be doing do I" huffing and puffing at me. This happened a few times with them. They take it as a personal thing. They have come in to something where everyone seems really good and they take it as an insult. Ob it's only a small percentage but it still makes a difference.
Which is why I'm wondering if it was made clearer from the beginning that it's normal for more experienced dancers to say "Please stop doing x" and that this is just part of the learning curve, maybe beginners wouldn't take offence? Much in the same way it's fine for beginners to keep saying "Sorry" throughout the dance :wink:

Martin
18th-June-2007, 01:21 PM
wow , this hurts... even to reply...

I did run my own dance company, and I was big on lead and follow, no hurt.

SO many teacher do not teach non-hurt style.

I am MAD that teachers teach not good enough to prevent hurt in the dance :angry:

It can be smooth , it can be cool, trouble is some teachers are not cool or smooth...

Minnie M is both smooth and cool... learn from her... :flower:
Not a teacher, but most dancers can learn heaps from what she does... :yeah: