First Move - LeRoc v Ceroc

[Gus]

Ages ago Roger Chin showed me a variation on the Ceroc First move. Key thing is that on beat 4, instead of the chap bringing his back foot forward, he steps back, bringing the lady in front without her having to swing round. Sometime later I realised that this was the LeRoc way. I wondered if there was a deliberate thougt process when Ceroc was developing to move away from the original. Years on I find the LeRoc way more natural and it opens up more options.

Fancy starting a campaign to get the Ceroc first move to change to the LeRoc version? :waycool:

[Brian Doolan]

Ages ago Roger Chin showed me a variation on the Ceroc First move. Key thing is that on beat 4, instead of the chap bringing his back foot forward, he steps back, bringing the lady in front without her having to swing round. Sometime later I realised that this was the LeRoc way. I wondered if there was a deliberate thougt process when Ceroc was developing to move away from the original. Years on I find the LeRoc way more natural and it opens up more options.

Fancy starting a campaign to get the Ceroc first move to change to the LeRoc version? :waycool:

Why?
LeRoc is just sloppy and jerky Ceroc.

[Dreadful Scathe]

Why?
LeRoc is just sloppy and jerky Ceroc.
EH? not been to many leroc classes have you :)

[bigdjiver]

Ages ago Roger Chin showed me a variation on the Ceroc First move. Key thing is that on beat 4, instead of the chap bringing his back foot forward, he steps back, bringing the lady in front without her having to swing round. Sometime later I realised that this was the LeRoc way. I wondered if there was a deliberate thougt process when Ceroc was developing to move away from the original. Years on I find the LeRoc way more natural and it opens up more options.

Fancy starting a campaign to get the Ceroc first move to change to the LeRoc version? :waycool:I believe that James Cronin was originally a rock'n'roller and that the Ceroc way derives from the common way to start a rock'n'roll dance.

MM will know better than I if this is right.

[Brian Doolan]

EH? not been to many leroc classes have you :)

Every Monday night in Renfrew and two LeRoc dance nights per month for the last three years, you should try it yourself.
The jerky bounce and side to side shoulder rock developed by the LeRocers I know, are not taught by the teachers but simply contracted like a virus through dancing with each other. If you don't think returning from the first sweep of the first move to face the lead instead of side to side or doing an arm jive at shoulder height isn't sloppy then you're clearly in the sloppy camp but don't let me put you off your dancing, I'm sure you enjoy it :rofl:

[Dreadful Scathe]

Every Monday night in Renfrew and two LeRoc dance nights per month for the last three years, you should try it yourself.

I started at leroc, as it so happens, and have been to many different Leroc venues up and down the country. I've not seen this "sloppy and jerky" dancing specically at leroc, I've seen it at Ceroc too. I'd say over the last 8 years or so i've been dancing, I've been to perhaps 60 unique venues. So while I stand by my statement "not been to many leroc classes have you?" I realise I should have been specific and said "unique leroc classes" for the hard of thinking ;)

[Andy McGregor]

IMHO the Ceroc first move is sloppy because they say "it doesn't matter which foot" and the LeRoc first move is wrong because they say ladies should go back left on beat 1. I spoke with Roger Chin about this and he is quite clear. The Chinster says that ladies should go back right on beat 1.

Do I think Ceroc should change? Ceroc can do what it likes. Anything I say will make no difference. And, all the time they are doing what they like and saying "whatever foot you like", I think I'm better :wink:

[Brian Doolan]

I started at leroc, .........

And you're on a Ceroc forum, speaks volumes doesn't it ??

By the way, are you referring to Ceroc's first move into a Mambo or Manhattan?
Very few of the LeRocers I know understand the concept of forward and back, it requires a little bit of thinking in between bouncing up and down.


I've not seen this "sloppy and jerky" dancing specically at leroc, I've seen it at Ceroc too

Maybe I am "hard of thinking", as I can't for the life of me think what you mean by that.

[MartinHarper]

If you don't think returning from the first sweep of the first move to face the lead instead of side to side ... isn't sloppy then you're clearly in the sloppy camp but don't let me put you off your dancing, I'm sure you enjoy it :rofl:

I don't think that's sloppy. If you look at the move in terms of flashlighting and frame it's got some advantages over the side-to-side version that Ceroc Enterprises teach in beginner lessons. Personally I find it more natural and much more common on the social dance floor.
Here are Nicky&Robert of Ceroc&Modern Jive in Australia demonstrating their version of the First Move. As you can see, they are very much facing each other prior to the turn, rather than being side to side.

YouTube - Modern Jive Beginners Moves 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97Yg2O2kGjg) (last move in video)

[Brian Doolan]

I don't think that's sloppy. If you look at the move in terms of flashlighting and frame it's got some advantages over the side-to-side version that Ceroc Enterprises teaches in beginner lessons. Personally I find it more natural and much more common on the social dance floor.


flashlighting ?
Have you looked where this thread originated -
Ceroc Scotland Forum > Ceroc / dance technical discussions > Let's talk about dance > Beginners corner

I was taught the first move years ago by one of the best Ceroc teachers in the business (he may say THE best :whistle:) so I'll stick with Ceroc's precision first move and continue to lead it that way in both Ceroc and LeRoc freestyles and dance nights.
It's not really that important to matter and my time is more valuable to me than to be looking at YouTube videos but thanks for going to the bother of posting the link.

[Gus]

I was taught the first move years ago by one of the best Ceroc teachers in the business (he may say THE best :whistle:) so I'll stick with Ceroc's precision first move and continue to lead it that way in both Ceroc and LeRoc freestyles and dance nights.Urrrrrr ... the first move has chabged several time sin the last 15 years. There is video (the original Ceroc promo vid) of a certain ceroc teacher teaching the way that is now 'deemed' to be wrong. Name of that instructor? A certain James Cronin. :whistle:

[ducasi]

Fancy starting a campaign to get the Ceroc first move to change to the LeRoc version? :waycool:
I'd rather join a campaign to get Ceroc and Leroc to adopt Amir's version. :)

[David Bailey]

I was taught the first move years ago by one of the best Ceroc teachers in the business (he may say THE best :whistle:) so I'll stick with Ceroc's precision first move and continue to lead it that way in both Ceroc and LeRoc freestyles and dance nights.
I'm not exactly sure what you're trinyg to say, but to be honest it comes across as "Ceroc Good, Leroc Bad, nya nya nya I'm not listening".


It's not really that important to matter
So why post so vehemently about it then? :confused:

[robd]

So why post so vehemently about it then? :confused:

I'd have expected Brian to be a bit more wary of adopting such a 'me right, you wrong' stance after this thread (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/geeks-corner/11336-encrypting-html-possible-not.html)

[Andy McGregor]

I was taught the first move years ago by one of the best Ceroc teachers in the business (he may say THE best :whistle:) I had no idea that Viktor was still a Ceroc teacher:innocent:


I'll stick with Ceroc's precision first move :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Precision? How can you precisely go back on either foot? Ceroc say, "it doesn't matter which foot". But you do the move very differently depending on which foot you step back with. IMHO the success of Ceroc is partly due to the lack of precision: if there is no wrong foot you will always be right (even the left foot is the right foot). And, the advantage of saying that you can go back on either foot is that you will be correct 50% of the time. Unlike the LeRoc Fed first move that is wrong 100% of the time. I know that the people at the top of the LeRoc Fed are hedging their bets on this one and saying "it doesn't matter which foot" but the products of their teacher's training all teach the first move with the lady stepping back left on beat 1 and having to insert some extra footwork to get their weight onto their left on beat 4 so they can step back right on beat 5.

Brian has got something else wrong too. There is no LeRoc first move. There is the first move that is taught by the LeRoc Federation in Bristol. That first move is wrong, IMHO. However, there are many LeRoc classes and, in my experience the teaching and dancing is variable. Some classes are fabulous and some are woeful. However, I have observed that the teachers and dancers at all of these classes are universally nice and well intentioned.



I'd rather join a campaign to get Ceroc and Leroc to adopt Amir's version. :)I am going through the thinking process on this one. I have occasionally taught the version of the first move that Amir teaches: I've taught it as a variation in the intermediate. However, I have kept the beginners first move the same for years. Change is always difficult in any organisation - especially a change that says "I've taught you wrongly for the last X years".

Another change I'm considering to the first move is the guys "step back left on beat 5". I do it but I don't like it. The move would look so much better if the guy did a nifty weight change and stepped back right. I haven't made that change either. My current thinking is that the first move is a "legacy move", it's part of the history of MJ and you really shouldn't tinker too much with history. IMHO the step back, guys left, ladies right, on beat 5 is what makes the first move. If you changed it you shouldn't really call it the first move. What to do, what to do :confused:

Maybe I'm thinking too much. If I didn't try to codify and formalise the dance so people know exactly how the technical side works who would? I've done all this work so I can teach the teachers. I've spend too many hours working out how the footwork is done in each move to abandon that work because somebody says it doesn't matter what goes on below the waist or that there is no footwork in MJ. Nigel Anderson and I have many such discussions about timing and footwork. We don't watch football much and I suppose this is our equivalent. And the funny thing is that the closer you look at it, the simpler it all is - I think it's a bit like particle physics, you end up with the basic building blocks from which you can make anything*.


*although I'm still having trouble producing a living, breathing Kylie :tears:

[Raul]

I was taught the first move years ago by one of the best Ceroc teachers in the business (he may say THE best :whistle:) so I'll stick with Ceroc's precision first move and continue to lead it that way in both Ceroc and LeRoc freestyles and dance nights.
It's not really that important to matter and my time is more valuable to me than to be looking at YouTube videos but thanks for going to the bother of posting the link.

:what:
If you are not open to consider any new ideas, then you will just have to remain with old one and be prepared to defend it blindly.

happy dancing

[DavidY]

Change is always difficult in any organisation - especially a change that says "I've taught you wrongly for the last X years".Ceroc changed the "YoYo" (another Beginners' Move) quite significantly a few years ago. They changed it so that the leader pivots round to face the follower somewhere around Beat 4 - previously the leader didn't turn at all during that move.

So I don't think Ceroc have any problem with changing a move if the powers-that-be think it's justified.

[Dreadful Scathe]

And you're on a Ceroc forum, speaks volumes doesn't it ??

Why no, no it doesnt.


I've not seen this "sloppy and jerky" dancing specifically at leroc, I've seen it at Ceroc too.



Maybe I am "hard of thinking", as I can't for the life of me think what you mean by that.

Simply that "sloppy and jerky" dancing happens everywhere.

[Andy McGregor]

Ceroc changed the "YoYo" (another Beginners' Move) quite significantly a few years ago. They changed it so that the leader pivots round to face the follower somewhere around Beat 4 - previously the leader didn't turn at all during that move.

So I don't think Ceroc have any problem with changing a move if the powers-that-be think it's justified.They changed the YoYo to the one I had always taught. The old one was just wrong, rather like the turn into the side of the guy on beat 6 in the Ceroc first move. I think the guy should step back and bring the lady in front. One day Ceroc will do it my way. However, Ceroc is a supertanker to my dinghy and will take much longer to change course.

[happygoldfish]

Erm, I'm new here, and I think I've taken a wrong turning.

I thought I'd meander through the broad sunny uplands of Beginners Corner, and follow the signpost saying "first move", because you can't get more beginnery than that.

You see, I'm an intermediate, but I go to beginners classes because I like meeting beginners.

And I thought Beginners Corner would be the same. Oh what a mistake!

I seem to have fallen through a dimensional rift into some parallel universe where wrinklies and grumblies debate endlessly how many Cerocers can do a first move on the head of a pin.

Is everyone trying to frighten the beginners away?

Do beginners ever come here?

Why not keep it simple, and invite beginners to comment on such things as;
DO YOU LIKE THE FIRST MOVE?
WHAT PROBLEMS DO YOU HAVE WITH IT?
DO YOU DO IT THE WAY IT IS TAUGHT?
DO YOU FIND THAT PEOPLE YOU DANCE WITH DON'T DO IT THE WAY IT IS TAUGHT?
and so on?

( … instantaneous dimensional shift … )

Ah! Fresh air again!

And all the wrinklies and grumblies are trapped in a macabre cabaret on the dark side of the universe (until someone releases them :devil: )!

So come on beginners! Write this way, your table's waiting …

[bigdjiver]

Erm, I'm new here, and I think I've taken a wrong turning.

I thought I'd meander through the broad sunny uplands of Beginners Corner, and follow the signpost saying "first move", because you can't get more beginnery than that.

You see, I'm an intermediate, but I go to beginners classes because I like meeting beginners.

And I thought Beginners Corner would be the same. Oh what a mistake!...:devil: A mistake, but a natural one. It is not beginner dancers corner, but beginner wrinkly, grumbly, nitpicking hotshot corner. Hang around for a while and you will be able to get the satisfaction of imagining the beginners :grin: turning to :confused: :eek: :devil: I too think this discussion belongs elsewhere, ( Ceroc X+ section?) and could really do with video clips.

If you watch most beginners what they learn in class gets blurred in freestyle, and ignorance appears to be bliss. We met an old Cerocer today, lost now to Salsa, and he commented "I always thought Ceroc was for people that can't dance." That hurt at the time. Later we did a demo lesson at the dance festival, and the floor was full of people that could not dance, and were loving it. Keep it simple ...

[bigdjiver]

Back again - my post was too hostile to the discussion, which I value greatly. I earned my living as a programmer, and have spent in the past spent three months work to ensure that the user did not have to choose inches or cm, ASCII, EIA or ECBDIC.:confused: Sometimes simplicity and getting things right is a very complex matter, and we all owe unperceived debts to those before us who have worked to make our lives simpler and better. It all seems so obvious after the event. MJ is so successful because of the work of the pioneers, and it is good to see that the process continues.:clap: :respect:

[happygoldfish]

:devil: A mistake, but a natural one. It is not beginner dancers corner, but beginner wrinkly, grumbly, nitpicking hotshot corner.

No.
The Beginners Corner homepage actually begins with the announcement:


Beginners corner New to Ceroc ? Have a question before you start ? One of those moves is too difficult ?
Ask here... Ceroc teachers and experts are on hand to help you.

So it's for people "New to Ceroc", not "New to this forum".

Helloooo beginners … What do you think of the first move? :nice:

[onkar]

Ages ago Roger Chin showed me a variation on the Ceroc First move. Key thing is that on beat 4, instead of the chap bringing his back foot forward, he steps back, bringing the lady in front without her having to swing round. Sometime later I realised that this was the LeRoc way. I wondered if there was a deliberate thougt process when Ceroc was developing to move away from the original. Years on I find the LeRoc way more natural and it opens up more options.

Fancy starting a campaign to get the Ceroc first move to change to the LeRoc version? :waycool:

Have to agree the LeRoc way is more logical. Also the same footwork applies to a few other moves (as done the LeRoc way) such as the Neck Break & Yoyo (LeRoc Yoyo no change of places between man and woman). The moving back on beat 4 also allows the lead to step in on beat 5 to turn the woman.

When speaking to some Ceroc teachers about this difference, their view was that Ceroc had dumbed down this aspect of the footwork, to keep it simple for the men, as otherwise beginner men struggled. Cannot say I have ever seen beginners struggle in LeRoc venues with it.

Onkar

[bigdjiver]

Have to agree the LeRoc way is more logical. Also the same footwork applies to a few other moves (as done the LeRoc way) such as the Neck Break & Yoyo (LeRoc Yoyo no change of places between man and woman). The moving back on beat 4 also allows the lead to step in on beat 5 to turn the woman.

When speaking to some Ceroc teachers about this difference, their view was that Ceroc had dumbed down this aspect of the footwork, to keep it simple for the men, as otherwise beginner men struggled. Cannot say I have ever seen beginners struggle in LeRoc venues with it.

OnkarDoes the Leroc way result in the man finishing the move one pace behind the position he started it?

[Gus]

Does the Leroc way result in the man finishing the move one pace behind the position he started it?Probably right. #The problem is that as the beginner moves have changed I think there are gaps in the foundation. Think about a first move pushspin. I can't remember how it was supposed to be taught but if you put a pushspin onto the end of a standard first move your bodies are at the wrong angle and its difficult to get the right feel, The LeRoc way makes it easire .... though you do have to counter the momentum of the lady turning in ACW before you spin her CW.

I think it was a mistake to take out the signle handed pushspin. Time and time again I try to do a pushspin with beginners in freestyle and they can't follow the compression, they just spin themselves ... not the right idea. :(

[onkar]

Does the Leroc way result in the man finishing the move one pace behind the position he started it?

I don't think so.

The steps would be:

Step back
Step In (side by side)
Turnout (outside legs going back for both man and woman)
Face (man brings his right foot back to join his left as woman turns to face in front)
Step In & Turn
Step Back
Step in & Return
Step BackSo you finish where you started.

Onkar

[Andy McGregor]

Probably right. #The problem is that as the beginner moves have changed I think there are gaps in the foundation. Think about a first move pushspin. I can't remember how it was supposed to be taught but if you put a pushspin onto the end of a standard first move your bodies are at the wrong angle and its difficult to get the right feel, The LeRoc way makes it easire .... though you do have to counter the momentum of the lady turning in ACW before you spin her CW.

I think it was a mistake to take out the signle handed pushspin. Time and time again I try to do a pushspin with beginners in freestyle and they can't follow the compression, they just spin themselves ... not the right idea. :(
The pushspin is a move I removed. We no longer teach it at all because it really isn't a proper lead. If you lead a spin at shoulder height you will put your partner off balance. We teach a variation, even then, not very often, where the guy takes his left hand between him and his partner at waist height and throws the ladies right hand to the left to get her to spin. It means you lead the lady near to her centre of gravity rather than pushing her off balance by pushing her above her centre of gravity.

And the first move onkar describes is the same as the one we teach. However, we have different ladies footwork from the complex and skippy thing that goes on with LeRoc and 50% of the time with Ceroc - depending on which foot the lady chooses to step back with as Ceroc say it doesn't matter*.




*did I mention that it not mattering is totally wrong, IMHO :innocent:

[Martin]

aww and I thought the first move was asking for her phone number...:awe:

Not sure what my feet are doing, but they seem to follow my body...:na:

[Dreadful Scathe]

Does the Leroc way result in the man finishing the move one pace behind the position he started it?

In some venues the man finishes the move in the bar area with a drink :)

[Andy McGregor]

Not sure what my feet are doing, but they seem to follow my body...:na:Some dancers aren't sure what their feet are doing because they haven't seen them for a very long time:whistle:

[JCB]

No.
So it's for people "New to Ceroc", not "New to this forum".
I guess it is possible to pull the leg of a goldfish:D
Yep, this part of the forum is for beginners like me,(I know, because I have received some excellent advice and encouragement here :cheers: :respect:)
But the forum grumpies aren't too particular where they choose to bait each other! Mean ole grumpies, scaring off we timid little fishies! :whistle:.
Actually, I find bits of this discussion very interesting, (even though I can't follow the details: eg. I got really confused by Onkars description, until I figured out side by side but facing opposite directions :o duh! typical beginner,me!)


Helloooo beginners … What do you think of the first move? :nice:
O.K., now that I am swimming in these dangerous waters: I don't much like the First Move, (which I was taught Ceroc style; btw the only move in my tiny repertoire which I dislike more is the neckbreak). It just feels wrong. And as for which foot to step back on, as a follow, it was usually the right, although the demo stepped back on her left. Now, how I am supposed to know...:mad:...never mind the Columbian, how ridiculous is "psssst! First Move! step back on your left" :what:. So for a while I was doing my confused little soft shoe routine, (getting out of sync:sick:), to try and copy the demo. For a very short while. Then I just "made do" with whatever foot had gone back. But I still frequently get the feeling of being wrong-footed. The "correct way" depends on the instructor; I have been told left back, right back, and doesn't matter:confused:. Now that I know there are variations of the basic First move, my partner and I can try and search out one that feels right to us. :na:

[David Bailey]

So it's for people "New to Ceroc", not "New to this forum".
It's a good point - hmmm, I guess I could move this thread to the Intermediate's Corner?

[Gus]

It's a good point - hmmm, I guess I could move this thread to the Intermediate's Corner?I posted here becasue the First Move is a beginners move. My logic, which may be flawed, is that this was a debate about teaching beginners.

Mind you, the crux of the issue, the step back on beat 4 seems to have been bypassed by most of the debate.:rolleyes:

[happygoldfish]

I don't much like the First Move, (which I was taught Ceroc style; btw the only move in my tiny repertoire which I dislike more is the neckbreak).
It just feels wrong.

Hello JCB! :nice:
Yes, I've never really liked the First Move. It doesn't seem to fit in with the the others.
If it's your second most disliked move, do you think it should be taken off the list of beginners moves?

I think demos step back on their left because they look at the audience, which is usually on their left, and they have to hold the pose for a long time, so it hurts their neck to step back on their right!

Do you find different men lead the First Move differently?


hmmm, I guess I could move this thread to the Intermediate's Corner?

Hey, JCB and I have just got into this paddling pool!
Don't pull the plug! :(
Erm, is there any way you can filter off all the big fish?

I wonder whether other beginners dislike the First Move?

[Gus]

Hello JCB! :nice:
Yes, I've never really liked the First Move. It doesn't seem to fit in with the the others.
If it's your second most disliked move, do you think it should be taken off the list of beginners moves?
We could rapidly end up with a discussion why certain moves are included in the beginners section. The original reason was, though this may have been changed, was that these moves form the buidling blocks for further dnace development. The first move is absolutyly fundamental for beginners to learn pivots, leading amd synchronised movement. Its also a beautiful move in the hands of a Master :wink: Viktor & Lydia's style workshop spent around an hour on the first move .... and much joy was had with it. :waycool:

Moved from the "Ceroc vs. Leroc" thread - DJ

[Libellule]

It's not just Ceroc different to Leroc. Ceroc here is different to Ceroc Australia. In Australia it was taught that you always stepped back on the outside foot. There was never any "either foot", every move had explicit footwork (at least in class). Also,in first move, the girl didn't come back to face her partner or stand side by side with him, but turned around 3/4 of the way and pointed the right foot ready to spin on it on the next beat. It didn't look sloppy if you did it smoothly. I feel much sloppier doing it the scottish way as it feels less natural to me. That being said, I don't see the need for Ceroc Scotland to change the way it teaches the moves

[Raul]

Well guys, we have only just started on the basic First Move and only begun to talk about the "rights and wrongs" of the "ceroc" way, the "leroc" way", the "previous" way, the "current" way, the "australian" way, the "scottish" way, the way "so and so" does it - to name but a few.

When we eventually finish this thread and deal with the rest of the "officially listed 1000+ moves", we will give the beginners a very good idea of this simplicity of the dance. :rolleyes:

[bigdjiver]

Well guys, we have only just started on the basic First Move and only begun to talk about the "rights and wrongs" of the "ceroc" way, the "leroc" way", the "previous" way, the "current" way, the "australian" way, the "scottish" way, the way "so and so" does it - to name but a few.

When we eventually finish this thread and deal with the rest of the "officially listed 1000+ moves", we will give the beginners a very good idea of this simplicity of the dance. :rolleyes:Aw, come on. Who ever reads the instructions?

I find the first move is my move of choice when regaining control of a wayward beginner. I suspect that it helps that they have been taught it.

[happygoldfish]

I find the first move is my move of choice when regaining control of a wayward beginner. I suspect that it helps that they have been taught it.

That's why we like dancing First Move with wayward beginners. But do they like it?
And is it your move of choice with ordinary beginners? I hardly ever do it in freestyle unless it was in the beginners lesson earlier.


We could rapidly end up with a discussion why certain moves are included in the beginners section. The original reason was, though this may have been changed, was that these moves form the buidling blocks for further dnace development.

I don't beleeeve it!
Ask a simple question about whether beginners like the First Move, and it gets turned into a pedantic historical ("though this may have been changed"!) analysis.

I wonder why "commercial operators" want to change the subject away from beginners saying whether they like the First Move?


The first move is absolutyly fundamental for beginners to learn pivots, leading amd synchronised movement.

It's not even slightyly fundamental. Pivots come in the basket and the yoyo, leading comes in almost every beginners move, and synchronised movement comes in … er … er… what on earth is synchronised movement? Is that where the whole class does the same move, with pegs on their noses?

Unlike lindy, chacha, rumba, waltz, quickstep, salsa, etc, there is no basic step in MJ, but MJ teachers yearn for there to be one, so they convince themselves that the First Move is a basic step. It isn't.


Its also a beautiful move in the hands of a Master Viktor & Lydia's style workshop spent around an hour on the first move .... and much joy was had with it.

Not exactly an argument in FAVOUR of it being a beginners move, is it?

Oh, rats! You've got me doing it now! How did that happen? I meant to get back to the nice simple question:

Do beginners dislike the First Move? :nice:

[Raul]

Aw, come on. Who ever reads the instructions?

I find the first move is my move of choice when regaining control of a wayward beginner. I suspect that it helps that they have been taught it.

:yeah:

That's why i am not too carried away about "the right way". I dance according to my ability and the ability and ways of the follower. Some followers read the lead, others are "slow" some do not turn fully or take tiny steps or giant steps, i adapt to make the dance flow. However i must admit that I rarely step back the way they teach in Ceroc, preferring to "face" the follower either partly or fully as in the Manhattan, there is more dance connection.

The First Move is one of my favourites too as there is such poetry to it. :waycool:
To regain control of a wayward beginner, I prefer the two handed moves -
armjive, basket, octopus. If they have not been taught the First Move or if they do it badly, they tend skip a beat by turning out before coming to your side. I find that sometimes i also have to keep my right hand on their "waist" on the turn and return (as in a swizzle) to get them to do the move on the beat.

[Gus]

Ask a simple question about whether beginners like the First Move, and it gets turned into a pedantic historical ("though this may have been changed"!) analysis.Urrrrr ... the thread is about the difference between the LeRoc and Ceroc versions. If thats not what you want to discus , why don't you start a thread on "Do beginners like the first move"? :flower:

[ducasi]

It's not even slightyly fundamental.
The First Move IS a fundamental move, in that it is the only beginner's move which teaches the closed position which is fundamental is so many other moves.

While the First Move as currently taught by Ceroc (IMHO) is horrible, it can be made into a smooth, elegant, and delightful move with so many possibilities contained within it.

[Gus]

While the First Move as currently taught by Ceroc (IMHO) is horrible, it can be made into a smooth, elegant, and delightful move with so many possibilities contained within it.I'd be interested to understand what you mean by this. The problem the ceroc model has, and it goes for any art form where you have to break it down by the numbers, is that its sometimes difficult to put it back together into a flowing move. This is probably where the infamous Ceroc bounce emerges as dancers try to mark the counts with a body movement.

[bigdjiver]

...To regain control of a wayward beginner, I prefer the two handed moves -
armjive, basket, octopus. If they have not been taught the First Move or if they do it badly, they tend skip a beat by turning out before coming to your side. I find that sometimes i also have to keep my right hand on their "waist" on the turn and return (as in a swizzle) to get them to do the move on the beat.I am talking about very wayward beginners, those who have lost the plot. I do not fancy the octopus for them. I find the armjive gives a wild newbie too much freedom to wave her arms about, the basket is too close for comfort for some.
I do the first move non-conformist, bending towards her and looking up with a smile. This usually gets eye contact and a smile back. The essence of the idea is to take her mind off dancing so she is more likely to follow the lead.
If there is not a too UCP issue then I also like the basket walk around, which gives me full control. It gives time for her to recover, and me a chance to chat and build rapport and takes her mind off trying to do it herself.

Where my "move of choice" has failed disasterously was with very young first timers who do not like strange men making contact with their waist:eek: They go into panic mode, and I instinctively tried to recover ...:blush:

[Andy McGregor]

Unlike lindy, chacha, rumba, waltz, quickstep, salsa, etc, there is no basic step in MJ, but MJ teachers yearn for there to be one, so they convince themselves that the First Move is a basic step. It isn't. Please do not make all encompassing statements about MJ teachers. There is a basic step in MJ, I go on about it all the time on here. It's lady's RLRLRLRL. The first move as it should be taught uses this footwork. Ceroc say it doesn't matter which foot so they don't have basic footwork. The LeRoc Federation have some other step-tap, skippety-skip, kicketty-kick thing going on. But me and Nigel Anderson think the basic footwork is lady's RLRLRLRL.

[JCB]

While this thread is still in the beginners' section, some help, please!
If I can't figure out what I am supposed to be learning in class, I may at least find out what questions to ask here.:wink:
And I am staying on the "LeRoc vs Ceroc First Move" thread. I just want to focus on the beginners' viewpoint.

We could rapidly end up with a discussion why certain moves are included in the beginners section.
Why would that be a bad thing? :rolleyes:

The original reason was, though this may have been changed, was that these moves form the building blocks for further dance development. The first move is absolutely fundamental for beginners to learn pivots, leading and synchronised movement.
If you are comparing the LeRoc version with the Ceroc version, then the efficiency each has in teaching these things ought to figure fairly highly, yes? Beginner leads present me with a variety of staccato arm gestures that would better suit a semaphore signaller, and it doesn't help that as a follower I can be wrong-footed from the get-go. If the complex upper body sequence is the rationale for "dumbing down" the footwork in the Ceroc version, then although the LeRoc version may be a smoother, clearer lead, adding the footwork may be a bit of a stretch for beginner leaders.

Viktor & Lydia's style workshop spent around an hour on the first move ....
Not really practical for beginners, but should a whole beginner lesson be devoted to the First Move, including footwork? ...Kinda boring for first-timers though.:sick: Nah, that would never fly. So, what is the answer?

[ducasi]

I'd be interested to understand what you mean by this. The problem the ceroc model has, and it goes for any art form where you have to break it down by the numbers, is that its sometimes difficult to put it back together into a flowing move. This is probably where the infamous Ceroc bounce emerges as dancers try to mark the counts with a body movement.
Perhaps it's horrible because it has to be for first-time dancers, but perhaps there should be beginner-versions of moves, instead of beginner moves.

At two points in the Ceroc beginner's first move there is a jarring change of direction for the lady as she is suddenly turned out, and later after being turned back in, she again has a sudden reversal of direction. A first move can be done in two smooth motions in and out, but I guess it requires extra technique from both dancers that few beginners will possess.

(As I said before, all "IMHO".)

[ducasi]

Perhaps it's horrible [...]

(As I said before, all "IMHO".)
Oh, I forgot to say, the mirrored foot positions is also horrible; the guy should be directing his attention towards his partner – tricky when his feet are pointing in the opposite direction.

[David Bailey]

The first move is absolutyly fundamental for beginners to learn pivots, leading amd synchronised movement.
Almost any move will teach the latter two points - and pivots in themselves aren't used much in Ceroc anyway.


Its also a beautiful move in the hands of a Master :wink: Viktor & Lydia's style workshop spent around an hour on the first move .... and much joy was had with it. :waycool:
If it takes someone like Viktor to make the move look good, one wonders whether it's worth it?

OK, I'm going to move this to a "First Move - pros and cons" thread, as it's clearly a separate topic..

[Andy McGregor]

If it takes someone like Viktor to make the move look good, one wonders whether it's worth it? Some people can make walking look good. Some people look good standing still. Nobody says that you can look like a supermodel by standing like one - it's just not going to happen.

The first move is an easy move, that's why it's a beginners move. It's also a move that exposes the variations in teaching as you need to turn the lady out on beat 5. How you get to beat 5 varies depending on where you learnt your MJ. What bugs me is that there are people teaching MJ who have no idea how the feet should move in those 4 beats that precede beat 5. And, even worse, IMHO, there are teachers who say it doesn't matter what you do with your feet for those 4 beats ....

[happygoldfish]

The First Move IS a fundamental move, in that it is the only beginner's move which teaches the closed position which is fundamental is so many other moves.

I don't understand this. :(
Firstly, the First Move "as currently taught by Ceroc" does not inolve the closed position.
The closed position has leader and follower facing each other. The Ceroc First Move has them side by side. You can't go into a promenade or grapevine or Columbian from that.

Secondly, the closed position is not fundamental to any STANDARD (sorry for the capitals, but my browser won't let me use the italics button) intermediate move, but only to advanced-or-fancy-intermediate moves like the Columbian.
Unless you mean First Move variations? But every move has variations. You might as well say that the pretzel is fundamental, because it's fundamental to its own variations.


While the First Move as currently taught by Ceroc (IMHO) is horrible, it can be made into a smooth, elegant, and delightful move with so many possibilities contained within it.

Ah! Then "horrible" means that you do dislike the First Move as a beginners move in the Ceroc list?
That's all I'm saying.
I'm not criticising, or inviting comments on, some abstract ideal First Move that exists somewhere else in the universe. I'm asking whether beginners like the actual First Move "as currently taught by Ceroc". :nice:

Btw, if I described a girl as horrible, but could be made into a smooth, elegant, and delightful girl with so many possibilities, would you regard that as a compliment (is this a Freudian thing: were you thinking of a girl when you wrote that)? :nice:

[David Bailey]

I was actually thinking about doing a thread on this today anyway, but it seems people are talking about this already, so here's my 2p-worth:

As HYF (:)) said, Most dances have a "fundamental move", which is used as a framework to teach the fundamental concepts of the dance. So, in AT we have the Basic 8, in salsa we have the forward-and-back, and so on.

I don't really think the Ceroc (or any other) First Move does this for MJ - the only key concepts I can think of which I think are fundamental are the turn and return at the end. Almost every other part of the move is, well, a bit weird, when you think about it.

Also, it's clearly not well-defined across different MJ / Ceroc areas anyway, which adds to the confusion.

So, what do people think would be an alternative First Move? Preferably one that is 8 counts, and that incorporates a turn and a return?

[Andy McGregor]

Oh, I forgot to say, the mirrored foot positions is also horrible; the guy should be directing his attention towards his partner – tricky when his feet are pointing in the opposite direction.I said this earlier in the thread. See below;


Another change I'm considering to the first move is the guys "step back left on beat 5". I do it but I don't like it. The move would look so much better if the guy did a nifty weight change and stepped back right. I haven't made that change either. My current thinking is that the first move is a "legacy move", it's part of the history of MJ and you really shouldn't tinker too much with history. IMHO the step back, guys left, ladies right, on beat 5 is what makes the first move. If you changed it you shouldn't really call it the first move. What to do, what to do :confused:
The reason I don't like the "mirrored" foot positions in the turn out is that it looks like the partnership of the dance has been interrupted. When I teach the step back in the sway and the basket I get the guys to step back right (and keep their toes on the floor). It looks so much nicer if both partners step back with the same foot when they are side by side and facing in the same direction. When I see guys stepping back left during the teach I say something like "a few of the guys are stepping back with their left foot, I'll just show you how it looks (demo). Don't you think it looks like we've had an argument just before going to bed. It's like we're trying to pretend our partner isn't there - maybe we need to put a pillow between us as well...":whistle:

However, as I've said, I still haven't been brave enough to make such a fundamental change the first move because of the history of that move. I have a story which I occasionally tell (I tell short stories during the lesson when I think that ladies need a break to get over being dizzy) "the reason the first move is called the first move is from the days when MJ was invented. There was a display team who went around London clubs demonstrating the dance. That team had a routine they did: the first move in the routine was, what we call today, the "first move"." With that in mind, how can I make a radical change to it?

[David Bailey]

The first move is an easy move, that's why it's a beginners move. It's also a move that exposes the variations in teaching as you need to turn the lady out on beat 5.
Which in itself is a weird step - and not used almost anywhere else, in that format. So why teach it as a fundamental move? Surely there are other fundamentals which are more important than turning the lady out and back?


Secondly, the closed position is not fundamental to any STANDARD (sorry for the capitals, but my browser won't let me use the italics button) intermediate move, but only to advanced-or-fancy-intermediate moves like the Columbian.
Hmm, I'd probably disagree with this specific point - I used closed hold quite a bit, even when not doing fancy stuff. But I agree that the First Move doesn't really teach closed hold.


(is this a Freudian thing: were you thinking of a girl when you wrote that)? :nice:
:rofl: :respect: :whistle:

[happygoldfish]

Please do not make all encompassing statements about MJ teachers. There is a basic step in MJ, I go on about it all the time on here. It's lady's RLRLRLRL. The first move as it should be taught uses this footwork. Ceroc say it doesn't matter which foot so they don't have basic footwork. The LeRoc Federation have some other step-tap, skippety-skip, kicketty-kick thing going on. But me and Nigel Anderson think the basic footwork is lady's RLRLRLRL.

Oops!
I humbly apologise. I should have said Ceroc.

Yes, I've done a Nigel Anderson class, and I agree his RLRLRLRL First Move is fundamental to his teaching. Though I still wouldn't call it a basic step in the ballroom sense. It has a basic rhythm, which is fundamental to his style and esential for a beginner to start with, without actually being a basic step.
But your and Nigel's First Move is a good beginners move. :respect:

(Personally, I don't like the RLRLRLRL style: it doesn't have the Ceroc/Leroc pauses for CONTEMPLATION and CHATTING: it's hectic, always on-the-go, and tires me out mentally. I'm just not up to it. :( But I admit it looks really good, and even feels really good for short periods!)


The first move is an easy move, that's why it's a beginners move. It's also a move that exposes the variations in teaching as you need to turn the lady out on beat 5. How you get to beat 5 varies depending on where you learnt your MJ. What bugs me is that there are people teaching MJ who have no idea how the feet should move in those 4 beats that precede beat 5. And, even worse, IMHO, there are teachers who say it doesn't matter what you do with your feet for those 4 beats ....

The Ceroc First Move isn't an easy move. Subject to that, I agree with all you say.
So: do Ceroc beginners find Ceroc First Move easy? :nice:

[bigdjiver]

One of the standard plots is "Boy meets girl, boy loses girl, boy gets girl back again." The first move gives an opportunity to enact that in minature during the dance. It also involves leading hand to body rather than through the arms like most of the other beginners moves. I believe it also looks 'cool' to non-dancing men. I think most of them could believe that they could twirl a girl around by using their arms, but the first move looks like something has been learned, and also results in close contact with the female. 'cool'

[Raul]

One of the standard plots is "Boy meets girl, boy loses girl, boy gets girl back again." The first move gives an opportunity to enact that in minature during the dance.

Good observation! :rofl:

Another good one is the catapult where the boy bowls the girl out and to the back, creates some tension, making her spring to the front again in a spin. All well that's end well. As long as he does not stick his bum out at her .

[Andy McGregor]

Oops!
I humbly apologise. I should have said Ceroc.Accepted :flower:


(Personally, I don't like the RLRLRLRL style: it doesn't have the Ceroc/Leroc pauses for CONTEMPLATION and CHATTING: it's hectic, always on-the-go, and tires me out mentally. I'm just not up to it. :( But I admit it looks really good, and even feels really good for short periods!)I'm sure I've said it elsewhere, the RLRLRLRL thing is the basic. You can, of course, vary it. But you need to get the basic to know what you're varying. If you were to watch most experienced female dancers they will have a weight change that goes R on the odd beats and L on the even beats in the bar - but sometimes they will not change their weight at all, holding a pose right until the end of the bar or doing some other interesting thing. This is the time for contemplation, chatting, winking, blowing in ears, wiggling, etc. But, when they rejoin the music, hopefully at the start of the next bar, it all goes RLRLRLRL, probably :whistle:

[ducasi]

I don't understand this. :(
Firstly, the First Move "as currently taught by Ceroc" does not inolve the closed position.
The closed position has leader and follower facing each other. The Ceroc First Move has them side by side. You can't go into a promenade or grapevine or Columbian from that.
It's as near as beginners need to get to it.


Secondly, the closed position is not fundamental to any STANDARD (sorry for the capitals, but my browser won't let me use the italics button) intermediate move, but only to advanced-or-fancy-intermediate moves like the Columbian.
Unless you mean First Move variations? But every move has variations. You might as well say that the pretzel is fundamental, because it's fundamental to its own variations.
There's so many... Pretty much every closed-position move Ceroc teach uses the First Move to get into it.

Off the top of my head, this includes Penguins, Eskimos, Manhattans and Whips.

Because of the FM's simplicity and power, it is usually the move that is used by teachers when teaching points of style or technique. I can't think of a more suitable move.



Ah! Then "horrible" means that you do dislike the First Move as a beginners move in the Ceroc list?
That's all I'm saying.
I'm not criticising, or inviting comments on, some abstract ideal First Move that exists somewhere else in the universe. I'm asking whether beginners like the actual First Move "as currently taught by Ceroc". :nice: As I said in another post which seems now to be in another thread, perhaps it is taught the way it is because it has to be to make it easy for beginners to do it.

I have been thinking about starting a thread asking, if you were starting from scratch and wanted to teach a smoother, slotted form of MJ, what beginners' moves would you teach. I would definitely include some form of First Move in my beginners' moves. (I would also drop the arm-jive and side-to-side.)


Btw, if I described a girl as horrible, but could be made into a smooth, elegant, and delightful girl with so many possibilities, would you regard that as a compliment (is this a Freudian thing: were you thinking of a girl when you wrote that)? :nice:
If I were thinking of a girl, I'd refer to the Ceroc First Move as a "diamond in the rough". ;)

[Gadget]

In my opinion, the first move is the move that offers the most variation and has the most 'comfortable' feel about it for beginners: it's a modification on a regualr "ballroom" stance and grip that everyone knows.

The initial step back can be on either foot - it dosn't (shouldn't) matter because the feet come together on the next count.

The sweep out is the bit that makes the majority of beginner leads look and feel uncomfortable when doing this move (assuming that it's the outside foot they are stepping back on). This is primaraly because they don't actually step back - they put the outside foot back. This and they try and move the left hand all the way to their partner's outside hip, twisting the body.
If it was taught for the lead to step and transfer weight so that the lead's hips remain in line with the follower's it would help a bit. (Especially since a lot of followers take a step behind their partners before turning out) And taught that the lead with the hand is a gentle push towards the outside hip (while pulling/rotating the follower with the other hand) rather than actually taking the hand there, I think it would help.

The variation on this of the lead stepping back on the inside foot is simpler because it's lazy. There is less for the lead to do and they don't have to move the feet at all. I suppose it could be argued that since it's easier it should be changed, but then it dosn't teach some of the core skills that are usefull in your dancing as a whole.

The exist is simply a reverse of the entrance - nothing spectacular to go wrong unless the entrance went wrong.

I would say that about 80-90% of my own dancing comprises of variations on the first move and different ways into & out of them.

[happygoldfish]

There's so many... Pretty much every closed-position move Ceroc teach uses the First Move to get into it.

Off the top of my head, this includes Penguins, Eskimos, Manhattans and Whips.

I've done plenty of intermediate lessons, but I've never heard of Penguins Eskimos or Whips.
And the Manhattan (if it's what I think it is: a Mambo with different footwork) has a "frame", which the First Move obviously hasn't. And it has nothing in common with the First Move, except for beats 1 and 2, which hardly constitute a move. And it doesn't involve either pivoting the follower, or making her move relative to the leader.

Losing Penguins Eskimos or Whips wouldn't affect any lesson I've been in. And the Manhattan is easier than the First Move, and can be taught without it, so losing the First Move might actually be an advantage there.

(Is the Whip where, in the middle of a Manhattan or Mambo, both dancers "whip" round 180°, without moving relative to each other, so keeping the frame? If so, it has nothing to do with the First Move, and one doesn't even get into it from one.)


Because of the FM's simplicity and power, it is usually the move that is used by teachers when teaching points of style or technique. I can't think of a more suitable move.

Simplicity? Even the octopus is simpler than the First Move.
The COMPLEXITY of the First Move is what makes it so suitable for teaching style and technique!

And isn't style and technique a way of making moves look good which aren't? Surely beginners are much better off with simple moves which look good anyway?
Isn't feeling-that they're not-looking-good a major reason why beginners feel unhappy with the First Move? :nice:

(And power? Is that what this is all about? Another Freudian thing? Don't talk to me about power … :devil:)

[ducasi]

I've merged these two threads back into one another as I don't think the discussions were separated enough.

I've also moved the thread into the Intermediate Corner forum, as although the move we are discussing is a beginner move, much of the discussion has been at a more advanced level.

Hope that's OK with everyone. :flower:

[David Bailey]

I've merged these two threads back into one another as I don't think the discussions were separated enough.
:eek: Blasted interfering moderators... :rolleyes: :whistle:

[ducasi]

:eek: Blasted interfering moderators... :rolleyes: :whistle:
:yeah:

:na:

[Gadget]

I've done plenty of intermediate lessons, but I've never heard of Penguins Eskimos or Whips.
Perhaps you need to do plenty more? :wink:

And the Manhattan (if it's what I think it is: a Mambo with different footwork) has a "frame", which the First Move obviously hasn't.
Every move has a "frame" - just because most folk don't use it or work with it {...untill they've been to one of Franck's workshops :wink:...} does not make it "obvious" that a first move has none.

And it has nothing in common with the First Move, except for beats 1 and 2, which hardly constitute a move.
And taken out of context like that, count 3 or 4 dosn't constitue a move either. What is the "key" element on a 'first move'? What makes it a first move and not a 'greater crested back drop'?

And it doesn't involve either pivoting the follower, or making her move relative to the leader.:confused: that's standing still.
~

And isn't style and technique a way of making moves look good which aren't?So you only put style and technique into moves that aren't any good? Technique is how to move and communicate with your partner. Style is everything else that does not help with movement or communicating with your partner. (Bad style hinders the movement and commincation.)


Surely beginners are much better off with simple moves which look good anyway?
The beginner moves are simple. Just because it's simple does not mean that there is no technique or style to them. The simplest 'move' is the return; there are millions of ways to screw that up... I know; I think I've messed that up in just about every way it can be messed up... then I find another way to make it go wrong. :(

And isn't it all about feeling good, rather than looking good. :wink:

[MartinHarper]

Not really practical for beginners, but should a whole beginner lesson be devoted to the First Move, including footwork?

It's what TRDC do when they teach their "JazzJive" variant on Modern Jive. It seems to work well there, though obviously it's less interesting for folks who've been dancing for a couple years.

[happygoldfish]

Perhaps you need to do plenty more? :wink:

I'm sure I do. But the fact that I've never come across these moves does tend to show that losing them wouldn't make any difference to most people.


Every move has a "frame" - just because most folk don't use it or work with it {...untill they've been to one of Franck's workshops ... :wink:} does not make it "obvious" that a first move has none.

Are you saying that the return (that's the 'move' you say you keep doing wrong, so I know you're familiar with it! :wink:) has a "frame"?
"Frame" is a word which seems to mean whatever the listener wants it to mean, but even so, as a matter of ordinary English, it surely has to refer to something rigid? There's nothing rigid about the First Move: the leader and follower are moving relative to each other the whole time.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding "Manhattan"? I've been assuming it's one of those moves where the leader and follower stay facing each other, in either two-handed or one-handed closed hold, moving to and fro as a single unit, the leader going forward while the follower goes backward, and then vice versa, and so on, so that the follower does not move relative to the leader.

:confused: that's standing still.
No it isn't!

Is that the Manhattan? If so, my point is that it's obviously rigid enough to qualify as having a "frame", and it's obviously completely different, in that respect, from the First Move.


And isn't it all about feeling good, rather than looking good. :wink:

Yes, which is exactly (ooh, look, I've worked out how to do italics! :grin:) why I said "Isn't feeling-that they're not-looking-good a major reason why beginners feel unhappy with the First Move?" :smile:

[Gus]

"Isn't feeling-that they're not-looking-good a major reason why beginners feel unhappy with the First Move?" :smile:Thats odd. I don;t know any begineer who has complained about the move and I've taught hundreds. Watch people dancing during the beginners freestyle and you'll see many of them doing the move. I can't see the problem with it. I know there are two counter turns in for the ladies, but many contemporary dnace styles have such movement. Not all dancers want just 'smooth' dancing, sometime you want to shake it up a bit. :waycool:

Having said that, most beginners who get the feel of the move tend to be nice and smooth. When doing corporate or fun classes for muggles I often include the move and it goes down well. If the 1st move is considered to be as attractive as Beelzebub's testicles, what else would you replace it with as an essential buidling block?

[ducasi]

I've done plenty of intermediate lessons, but I've never heard of Penguins Eskimos or Whips.
I don't know about the others, but the "First Move Penguin" is on one of the moves on Ceroc's Intermediate DVDs.


And the Manhattan (if it's what I think it is: a Mambo with different footwork) has a "frame", which the First Move obviously hasn't. And it has nothing in common with the First Move, except for beats 1 and 2, which hardly constitute a move. And it doesn't involve either pivoting the follower, or making her move relative to the leader.
Indeed, the Manhattan is the same as the Mambo. It is normally taught as the "First Move Mambo" using the First Move as an entry into the Mambo – as I said, these are move which are normally taught and used with a First Move entry.


Losing Penguins Eskimos or Whips wouldn't affect any lesson I've been in. And the Manhattan is easier than the First Move, and can be taught without it, so losing the First Move might actually be an advantage there.
The Manhattan is difficult without the First Move due to Ceroc's lack of taught footwork and difficulty of getting into a closed position with proper frame from the open position. By doing the Manhattan from a First Move, correct foot position is assured, as is the correct frame and hold.


(Is the Whip where, in the middle of a Manhattan or Mambo, both dancers "whip" round 180°, without moving relative to each other, so keeping the frame? If so, it has nothing to do with the First Move, and one doesn't even get into it from one.)
No, that's more the Penguin and Eskimo... The Whip is not taught in Ceroc very often AFAIK, it being more of a WCS move, but it is possible, and it starts with the First Move position, going quickly into a closed position momentarily as the leader crosses in front of the follower before whipping them back out.


Simplicity? Even the octopus is simpler than the First Move.
The COMPLEXITY of the First Move is what makes it so suitable for teaching style and technique! It really is simple. Nothing especially complicated about what your arms are doing, you're just stepping forward and back a few times. The guy doesn't even have to turn.


And isn't style and technique a way of making moves look good which aren't?
Absolutely not!!!! Style is how you use the parts of your body which are not involved in leading (or following) to interpret the music, and make your dancing look better.

Technique is about making your leading and following better, improving connection, creating musicality and generally allowing you and your partner to dance better. (And also probably make your dancing look better.)


Surely beginners are much better off with simple moves which look good anyway?
No! Beginners, while needing to learn a few moves which make them feel and look good, need more to learn moves which teach them how to dance.


Isn't feeling-that they're not-looking-good a major reason why beginners feel unhappy with the First Move? :nice: I don't think so. If there is a "major" reasons why some beginners are unhappy with the first move, I'd guess it's because the "turn out" part can be tricky to lead, and if not lead well, tricky to follow.

The need to get the lead/follow right is an important lesson in leading and following, and so is yet another reason why the First Move deserves to be a beginner's move.


(And power? Is that what this is all about? Another Freudian thing? Don't talk to me about power … :devil:)
The power of the First Move is in the semi-closed position that it takes the dancer into. This allows an easy entry into loads of closed position moves.

While there are other ways into closed position, the First Move is probably the easiest and most comfortable for everyone to do.


But the fact that I've never come across these moves does tend to show that losing them wouldn't make any difference to most people.
How can you possibly say what difference it would make "to most people"?? Do you know most people? Have you asked them?


Are you saying that the return (that's the 'move' you say you keep doing wrong, so I know you're familiar with it! :wink:) has a "frame"?
In a way it does – the follower has to keep a frame to allow herself to be turned by the leader. Without a frame a return looks and feels like stirring porridge.


"Frame" is a word which seems to mean whatever the listener wants it to mean, but even so, as a matter of ordinary English, it surely has to refer to something rigid? There's nothing rigid about the First Move: the leader and follower are moving relative to each other the whole time. Frame means connecting your arms with your body to create a "frame". It doesn't mean that the arms are not allowed to move. When dancers link their frames, as they do in the First Move, it gives them a greater connection, which tends to make for a better dance.


Perhaps I'm misunderstanding "Manhattan"? I've been assuming it's one of those moves where the leader and follower stay facing each other, in either two-handed or one-handed closed hold, moving to and fro as a single unit, the leader going forward while the follower goes backward, and then vice versa, and so on, so that the follower does not move relative to the leader.

[...]

Is that the Manhattan? If so, my point is that it's obviously rigid enough to qualify as having a "frame", and it's obviously completely different, in that respect, from the First Move.
The Manhattan has frame, and so does the First Move, just different.

Without frame, when you tried to "turn out your follower, her arm would move, but not her body. Without frame, the turn in would end up with the follower either just extended her arm, or she would end up wandering off in the other direction.

Like Gadget, much of my dancing is based on the First Move, though probably no where near the percentage he says – maybe a quarter...

I'd miss it.

[spindr]

The first move turn-out is probably about the only Ceroc (tm) move where there is consistent footwork, i.e. the follower has to be stood on the left foot in order to dance the pivot taking the right foot backwards.

Hence, the first move means that leaders can attempt to transition to footwork based moves by using the pivot from a first move.

Take away the first move away and there will be no common mechanism available to leaders to get a follower on to a consistent known foot -- well not without rewriting a lot of moves, or trying to define an MJ variant of merengue.

Cheers,
SpinDr

[drathzel]

There is a version of the basket whip which is now a recognised ceroc move! As well as whip and switches styles moves taught in workshops (a la Marc and Rachel at Blaze/Ceroc NI recent workshops). I have also seen Nicole and Simon teach/demo whip style moves.

[David Bailey]

There is a version of the basket whip which is now a recognised ceroc move!
I have this image of a big Ceroc organisation squinting at a couple and going "Ooh, that's a move, I recognise that!" :devil:
(Bit like the "handwriting-recognition" imp - "Yep, that's handwriting, I'd recognise it anywhere")

[ducasi]

There is a version of the basket whip which is now a recognised ceroc move! As well as whip and switches styles moves taught in workshops (a la Marc and Rachel at Blaze/Ceroc NI recent workshops). I have also seen Nicole and Simon teach/demo whip style moves.
Indeed, the whip move I do is based upon one taught by Marc & Rachel. (It starts from the First move position, where the Basket Whip, unsurprisingly, doesn't. ;))

[David Bailey]

The Manhattan is difficult without the First Move due to Ceroc's lack of taught footwork and difficulty of getting into a closed position with proper frame from the open position.
How is the manhattan difficult? You step forward on the left, she steps back on the right. You step back on the left, she steps forwards on the right. Where's the difficulty? And why do you need to do a First Move to do a Manhattan? :confused:


It really is simple. Nothing especially complicated about what your arms are doing, you're just stepping forward and back a few times. The guy doesn't even have to turn.
Yeah, but it's a bit naff as a move really - if we weren't taught it, I doubt that many of us would actually choose to do it. The open-out bit is particularly useless - the only time I use anything like that is to set someone up for a West Manhattan.


How can you possibly say what difference it would make "to most people"?? Do you know most people? Have you asked them?
Oi, stop having a go at the nice new posting person...

[Raul]

Oi, stop having a go at the nice new posting person...

Said Grouchy to Freudian. :rofl:

[ducasi]

How is the manhattan difficult? You step forward on the left, she steps back on the right. You step back on the left, she steps forwards on the right. Where's the difficulty? And why do you need to do a First Move to do a Manhattan? :confused:
How do you get the follower to step back on their right? While some leaders can lead a step back on a certain foot, and some followers can follow such a lead, pretty much all combinations of leaders and followers can get end up with the follower back on their right foot by getting into the first move position.

At the same time, you also need to get into a closed position. The First Move takes you half way there, you just need to turn and close it up and you're there!


Yeah, but it's a bit naff as a move really - if we weren't taught it, I doubt that many of us would actually choose to do it. The open-out bit is particularly useless - the only time I use anything like that is to set someone up for a West Manhattan.
What's naff about it? OK, the move, as taught to beginners is a bit naff, but the move itself is a fundamental part of Modern Jive, as we know it.

If you can see a use for the First move to get you into a West Manhattan, can't you see a use for it to get you into a Manhattan?


Oi, stop having a go at the nice new posting person...
Sorry, I think I must have been under the spell of the ghost of ESG... ;)

[David Bailey]

How do you get the follower to step back on their right?
You lead it? If you step forward on your left, with a reasonable amount of intention, the lady generally will step back on her right, if only to avoid getting stepped on :)


While some leaders can lead a step back on a certain foot, and some followers can follow such a lead, pretty much all combinations of leaders and followers can get end up with the follower back on their right foot by getting into the first move position.
Don't let Andy McGregor hear you saying that...


At the same time, you also need to get into a closed position. The First Move takes you half way there, you just need to turn and close it up and you're there!
Actually, you don't have to get into a closed gold to do a Manhattan - in fact I think it sometimes looks cooler if you don't.


What's naff about it? OK, the move, as taught to beginners is a bit naff, but the move itself is a fundamental part of Modern Jive, as we know it.
It's, I dunno, just ugly, especially the stepping out bit of it - it's all push and pull, there's a clear connection breakage when you open out (unless you turn to face the follower, in which case you're starting a West Manhattan anyway), and it's a 9-beat move, so inherently difficult to fit into most music.


If you can see a use for the First move to get you into a West Manhattan, can't you see a use for it to get you into a Manhattan?
I only have to pivot to get into a West Manhattan, which is elegant. I have to pivot and move my feet to get into a Manhattan, which isn't. The only bonus is that I know the lady has stepped back, so I don't have to lead it. But then I won't learn how to lead it...

And why not just step forward to lead a Manhattan? It's about as simple as you can get, none of this artificial "semi-circle to signal a step back" malarkey - just step forward. The ladies will get out of the way :)


Sorry, I think I must have been under the spell of the ghost of ESG... ;)
I get that sometimes too - :eek: - maybe we need an exorcist?

[Andy McGregor]

Don't let Andy McGregor hear you saying that...Didn't hear a thing :innocent:

[Gadget]

I'm sure I do. But the fact that I've never come across these moves does tend to show that losing them wouldn't make any difference to most people.Up untill relativly recently I used to think the same about the "in and out"... fairly pointless and no-one would miss it.
Now I have flipped my opinion and think it's an excelent move to have beginners do: it is one of the first and easiest introductions to 'connection' and the compression/tension used to lead. (I think that it would be better taught with the lead matching the follower's movement, but then you're getting away from the elasticity of MJ and into the magnetism of WCS/Blues)

I think that everyone would miss the first move.


Are you saying that the return (that's the 'move' you say you keep doing wrong, so I know you're familiar with it! :wink:) has a "frame"?
"Frame" is a word which seems to mean whatever the listener wants it to mean, but even so, as a matter of ordinary English, it surely has to refer to something rigid? There's nothing rigid about the First Move: the leader and follower are moving relative to each other the whole time.
At the risk of repeating Ducasi, yes; the return has a frame.
The 'frame' is simply holding position- not tensing up rigid... If you hold your arm to the side and someone tries to move it, you feel and resist; but you are not holding your arm tense.
Having a "frame" is more about becoming aware of your own body, where it is and how it is moving. If I maintain my pose, connected to my partner, and push forward with my toes, what happens? My partner feels it. Why? Because the rest of my body has maintained the frame and moved. If it had collapsed, then my partner would not feel anything - the 'push' from the toes would have pushed my knee forward, causing it to bend.


Yes, which is exactly why I said "Isn't feeling-that they're not-looking-good a major reason why beginners feel unhappy with the First Move?" :)
I still dissagree the beginners feel unhappy with the first move, but asuming they do...
Perhaps it's because they know that something in the lead/follow is not right? If something led does not feel good, then I know something is not going the way I would like it. So should beginners abandon the move because it's not working out, or work on it untill it's fixed?

[JCB]

At the risk of repeating Ducasi, yes; the return has a frame.

I just learned something! I think:confused:
When the leader gently tilts and twists my hand to lead a return, he changes the orientation of my hand, and so, to maintain the frame, I have to turn my body to follow my hand.
But I have difficulty following the "polish the halo" style return lead.
If I understand Gadget's logic, since the orientation of the leader's hand (and my hand in his) doesn't change, it just moves in a horizontal circle over my head, maintaining my frame suggests I step in a little circle: to the side, back, to the other side, forward :na: .
Just "stirring" things in my own little way, I guess:innocent:

[Gadget]

I just learned something! I think:confused:
When the leader gently tilts and twists my hand to lead a return, he changes the orientation of my hand, and so, to maintain the frame, I have to turn my body to follow my hand.
:confused: personally I am unaware of any tlit and twist of the follower's hand during a return: while moving the land, there is contact/pressure within it in the direction I wish my partner to move... if it were possable to levitate, then you could mantain a perfect frame, but I presume you can't, therefore you have to straighten up and follow the direction of travel as best you can.

But I have difficulty following the "polish the halo" style return lead.
If I understand Gadget's logic, since the orientation of the leader's hand (and my hand in his) doesn't change, it just moves in a horizontal circle over my head, maintaining my frame suggests I step in a little circle: to the side, back, to the other side, forward :na: .:wink: the "polish the halo" style of return is maintaining slight downward pressure, angled through your body to rotate you... it's like tipping a pint glass on it's bottom edge and spinning it with a finger on the top rim: the glass does not move in a massive circle, but spins on the point of contact with the table.
The flat hand is for the follower to maintain their own frame - something to push up and give resistance against.

[happygoldfish]

How is the manhattan difficult? You step forward on the left, she steps back on the right. You step back on the left, she steps forwards on the right. Where's the difficulty? And why do you need to do a First Move to do a Manhattan?


Actually, you don't have to get into a closed hold to do a Manhattan - in fact I think it sometimes looks cooler if you don't.


It's, I dunno, just ugly, especially the stepping out bit of it - it's all push and pull, there's a clear connection breakage when you open out (unless you turn to face the follower, in which case you're starting a West Manhattan anyway), and it's a 9-beat move, so inherently difficult to fit into most music.


I only have to pivot to get into a West Manhattan, which is elegant. I have to pivot and move my feet to get into a Manhattan, which isn't. The only bonus is that I know the lady has stepped back, so I don't have to lead it. But then I won't learn how to lead it...

And why not just step forward to lead a Manhattan? It's about as simple as you can get, none of this artificial "semi-circle to signal a step back"

:respect:


And isn't it all about feeling good, rather than looking good.

As I said 5 days ago in another thread:

MJers should just practise feeling good, not practise looking good. Well, within reason.
For example, looking at the floor is bad, but only because it makes you look as if you're not enjoying yourself.
Spread the joy! :nice:


How can you possibly say what difference it would make "to most people"?? Do you know most people? Have you asked them?

Ducasi, If I've never come across those moves, it does tend to show that most people at Ceroc haven't, in which case it's difficult to see how losing them would make any difference to them!

I asked whether the return has a "frame" to see what you meant by "frame".
Clearly it's completely different from what I mean by "frame".

I accept that, on your definition of "frame", the Manhattan and the First Move (and indeed all moves) have a "frame", and so there is no difference between the Manhattan and the First Move in that respect.

Why can't you accept that my definition of "frame" describes a concept which does exist, and which the Manhattan has while the First Move obviously hasn't, and in that respect they're different?

This is no fun. :(

See new thread. "frames"[384347]


At the risk of repeating Ducasi, yes; the return has a frame.
The 'frame' is simply holding position- not tensing up rigid... If you hold your arm to the side and someone tries to move it, you feel and resist; but you are not holding your arm tense.

You too. OK. So what is the word I should use to describe, in the Columbian, Manhattan, etc, leader and follower keeping their shoulders and upper bodies fixed relative to each other, and only wiggling their other bits?

I call it a "frame", because it looks like one. I'm happy to call it by some other word. But it makes discussion of the concept virtually impossible if everyone's in Freudian denial by refusing to give the concept a name at all. :confused:[384347]


So should beginners abandon the move because it's not working out, or work on it untill it's fixed?

There is a third way! New Ceroc! Down with Clause 1! :yeah:
There's only 20 Ceroc beginners moves, and the list keeps changing, so let the beginners wait until intermediate class! :nice:

[EricD]

Sorry I join this once the fight has died down - just want to say as a Taxi,
the First Move is very useful for helping teach the Basket and Yoyo by analogy :
all share a similar dynamic rhythm.
In - Twist - Twist Back - Out
OK : the hands and direction of turn are different and I might still be doing the old Yoyo,
but it does help them learn the 3rd move if they know any two of the others !

... and I would say In-and-out is the basic move in Ceroc,
given that every move starts and ends with 'Out' !

That's why the Mambo/Manhattan is so different:
you both move in the same direction with an unchanging frame,
instead of opposite directions with an elastic frame !

... and I would match the follower's RLRLRL basic footwork with a mirrored leader's footwork LRLRLR !

HTH !

[happygoldfish]

Sorry I join this once the fight has died down -
…

Hello EricD! On this forum, often best to wait until the big bruisers have knocked each other breathless and the dust has settled down! Things can be much clearer then … :nice:

btw, respect for posting at 4.29 on a Saturday morning! You had a good night's dancing, didn't you? :respect:


… just want to say as a Taxi,
the First Move is very useful for helping teach the Basket and Yoyo by analogy :
all share a similar dynamic rhythm.
In - Twist - Twist Back - Out {snip}

I agree! :nice:


OK : the hands and direction of turn are different and I might still be doing the old Yoyo,
but it does help them learn the 3rd move if they know any two of the others !

But then there's no need for all 3 to be in the list of 20 beginners moves? :(


... and I would say In-and-out is the basic move in Ceroc,
given that every move starts and ends with 'Out' !

Erm … Would you like to reconsider that?
It's actually out-and-in, isn't it? :confused:

In-and-out is that silly bouncing exercise which teachers think helps followers practise following, but in fact helps followers practise leading! :whistle:

To return to your point:blush:, if every move starts with 'Out', then couldn't any move be the basic?

Your old Yo-yo is a lot simpler than the First Move, so how about old Yo-yo for the basic? :nice:


That's why the Mambo/Manhattan is so different:
you both move in the same direction with an unchanging frame,
instead of opposite directions with an elastic frame !

That's what I've been saying! I think you're the first peron who's agreed with me!


HTH !

What's HTH? Hip-to-hip? :confused:<hr>Old yo-yo for basic! :nice: Down with Clause 1! :yeah:

[Nick M]

Your old Yo-yo is a lot simpler than the First Move, so how about old Yo-yo for the basic?


Puzzled - surely the old yo-yo is identical to a first move, but with a right-to-right hold?

[happygoldfish]

Puzzled - surely the old yo-yo is identical to a first move, but with a right-to-right hold?

The footwork is identical, yes, for both parties.

But the First Move is a two-handed move, while the old Yo-yo is one-handed.

And both moves involve the leader making the follower do things on his right side, which is much easier and more natural using the leader's right hand than using his left hand.

The old Yo-yo can then be the basis for the new Yo-yo (possibly followed by the old shoulder-drop), or the hatchback and its variations, or the comb.

[Nick M]

But the First Move is a two-handed move, while the old Yo-yo is one-handed..

hmmmm - not sure I agree. At no point does the leader take the follower's left hand in his right during the first move. His right is used to block, not to take hold.


And both moves involve the leader making the follower do things on his right side, which is much easier and more natural using the leader's right hand than using his left hand.

Yes, agreed, the turn-out on the yo-yo is easier than the turn-out in the first move. Apart from that I see little difference between the two in terms of difficulty.


The old Yo-yo can then be the basis for the new Yo-yo (possibly followed by the old shoulder-drop), or the hatchback and its variations, or the comb.

Sure, and the first move can be used as the basis for manhattans, spin-pasts, left hand combs, smoothies, kick walks etc. Not sure of your point here.

So is the difficult movement in the first move, the turn out on beat 3?

[happygoldfish]

So is the difficult movement in the first move, the turn out on beat 3?

Yes. Count 3, and its reversal in Count 4.

They're awkward for beginners in the First Move, and they encourage followers not to follow.


Sure, and the first move can be used as the basis for manhattans, spin-pasts, left hand combs, smoothies, kick walks etc. Not sure of your point here.

Sorry. Was trying to be too brief. :blush:

The point was: my list was of moves which are or used to be beginners' moves – and I could have made the list longer by adding some intermediate moves – but your list is only of intermediate or intermediate/advanced moves.

(At least, I think so: I don't know what spin-pasts or smoothies are :confused:)


(I did a forum search for "smoothie", and got:
1. … she's fallen for the old smoothie routine …
2. Pineapple and carrot smoothie anyone?
3-4. Smoothie. Hamish_A. Maddy …
5. The Glasgow Smoothies?
6. You're an old smoothie …
7. … ie probably "Smoothie" or "Powerhouse" in ...
8. … and is he a smoothie?
9. Happy Birthday ya smoothie ..
10. Mr Smoothie ......) :tears:

[clevedonboy]

I think that everyone would miss the first move.



Not me :devil:

I agree with Mr James WRT Mambo steps and the like - if you want to get into a closed hold there is an easier way to do it than messing about with a First Move. In Latin Ballroom, Salsa, Lindy (and by definition R&R etc etc), to go from open to closed, you just grab the follower and get on with it (stylishly of course). Fundamentally these dances work on the principle espoused so well by Andy (must come and see you some time when we come down to see Edd by the way) All of these dances work on the principle of leading one foot followed by the other. The basic step is key though to the smooth transition from open to closed.

As someone who doesn't do a First Move more than once in a night on average though, I don't have a problem with the transition - just about every follower gets the message even if they don't "know" that I'm leading a basic step whilst changing.

[JCB]

Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border: 1px inset ;"> Originally Posted by happygoldfish http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/images/orange_buttons_basic/viewpost.gif (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/intermediate-corner/13000-first-move-leroc-v-ceroc-5.html#post391126)
But the First Move is a two-handed move, while the old Yo-yo is one-handed.
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

hmmmm - not sure I agree. At no point does the leader take the follower's left hand in his right during the first move. His right is used to block, not to take hold.
Well, I agree. As a follower, I generally find the leader's right hand on my left shoulderblade, or on my left hip.
(drags horse back out of the skip, and swishes the whip a couple of times for effect)
I think it is a lovely, swirly move when led by a competent leader, and easy to follow. But it becomes a staccato obstacle course when led by a beginner who is struggling to remember what goes where, and panics when left behind the beat. The follower has no discreet escape route when her right hand is in the leader's left hand, and the leader's right hand is on her hip or shoulderblade. This means the follower has little choice of where to go, and can move gracefully through the arcs led by a confident leader; for the same reason she gets toes crushed and ankles clipped when a beginner pulls her towards him, then steps forward himself! :what:

[MartinHarper]

for the same reason she gets toes crushed and ankles clipped when a beginner pulls her towards him, then steps forward himself! :what:

Chest forward? Might keep the feet out of harms way.

[happygoldfish]

Well, I agree. As a follower, I generally find the leader's right hand on my left shoulderblade, or on my left hip.

I'm not sure which of us you're agreeing with – but I'll agree with you anyway! :nice: The First Move is a one-handed move for the follower, and a two-handed move for the leader.

This whole sub-theme seems to have started when I suggested:


Your old Yo-yo is a lot simpler than the First Move, so how about old Yo-yo for the basic?

and Nick M replied:


Puzzled - surely the old yo-yo is identical to a first move, but with a right-to-right hold?

So I'm not really bothered about the number of hands in the hold for the Yo-yo or the First Move, but rather about which hold is easier for beginners.


I think it is a lovely, swirly move when led by a competent leader, and easy to follow. But it becomes a staccato obstacle course when led by a beginner who is struggling to remember what goes where, and panics when left behind the beat.
The follower has no discreet escape route when her right hand is in the leader's left hand, and the leader's right hand is on her hip or shoulderblade.
This means the follower has little choice of where to go, and can move gracefully through the arcs led by a confident leader; for the same reason she gets toes crushed and ankles clipped when a beginner pulls her towards him, then steps forward himself! :what:

Yes, this is what I had in mind as making the Yo-yo so different from the First Move as a beginners' move – the follower can move much more freely in the Yo-yo, since she is held by only one of the leader's hands (plus, the right-to-right hold more or less pushes her out of harm's way).

In engineering terms, the First Move is like a high performance racing car :devil: – it's unstable. In the hands of a high performance drive :waycool:, there's no problem – a small error can be immediately corrected. But in the hands of a beginner :innocent:, a small error can cause a crash! :tears:

And so a beginner shouldn't be let anywhere near a high performance car!

(Btw, how do the controls of a JCB work? ;))

So, how about old Yo-yo for the basic, JCB?

[JCB]

Chest forward? Might keep the feet out of harms way.Might work for DD+, but I'd need, erm, augmentation :o.
But seriously, it has happened twice, both times led by first-timers, who had yanked me 'round, back in from the swing out, having paused while watching the demo, were behind the count and panicking. I was relatively new, and overbalanced, planting my right foot on the floor to avoid planting my face there. In fact for one, I was leaning forward, before regaining my balance, but he still managed to land his left foot on my right toes (I scooted the foot back, so only minor bruising) as he craned to see the stage. I don't think he even noticed what he had done.
My posture and balance have improved, and my toes are no longer in danger, you will be pleased to know. Especially since if I meet a first-time, First Move yanker, I start to back-lead. So you can borrow my horse-whip if you like, but it is my one exception to the "follow what is led" rule: I value my toes! :na: