Why don't Ceroc offer the full range of teaching?

[Gus]

Inspired by a thread that seems to have gone outside :innocent: :whistle:
OK ... we've been through this debate many times ... "Ceroc only caters for beginner/intermediates ... doesn't cater for the more advanced blah, blah, balh ....... BUT why should that be the case?

Think about it.. They have critical mass, a reputation for solid teaching ... but they also have most of the dancers and some really skilled/talented teachers. The basic model starts and ends with two classess which, for the most part only addresses the needs of the sub-18 month dancers. There are the weekenders ... but these mass classes are difficult to learn from.

SO ... why don't they bolt on another product. There are more 'intersting' workshops available ... look at what Franck, Marc and Paul F offer. This could be extended as a brand in the same way as Ceroc are developing the Utopia brand. How about add another level ... a range of instructors who offer private lessons under the Ceroc brand. They DON'T have to be good at everything, just focused aspects of dance. In the same way there is a way to develop a model to teach dance en-masse, is there a way to teach the elite instructors to be able to coach and deliver private lessons? It would take more effort and dedication, but it could produce a new standard in dance .

Good idea / Bad idea?

[straycat]

Depends which way you look at it. From the point of view of improving the dance, very good - possibly even vital - idea. From an accountant's point of view - can it be even remotely as profitable as the current model?

[David Bailey]

From an accountant's point of view - can it be even remotely as profitable as the current model?
Possibly - you'd have to wean punters in your market off the concept of "cheap lessons" though.

Let's face it, Ceroc classes are generally cheap compared to other forms which do teach more "advanced" areas. Ballroom and AT class nights can cost £15 for two lessons, mainly because the numbers are smaller, which allows teachers to give more technique-focussed instructions.

Once you start serious learning, you have to also start paying some serious money - and if you're used to 2 lessons and a freestyle for £7, it can come as a bit of a shock when you start shelling out £40-50 for an hour of private tuition. :eek:

But certainly it's possible to make money teaching smaller numbers and more specialised techniques - you just need to up the charges. Whether that would work or not is a different question...

[Raul]

:yeah:

But in MJ we have the numbers. Ceroc does have a few "specialist" workshops - Latin with Maja, Blues with Val and Dave, Blues with Howard and Nicola, now WCS with Paul Farrell, Swinging the blues in conjunction with Nigel and Nina (once a year!), Lead and Follow with Frank and there are others.

Th prices come down a bit - £30-40 for three hours (my guess). They also have 'style' workshops, i think, but still using the 'previous' model without a 'Name'. IMO any workshop relies heavily on the renown of the teacher fronting it, this is the bit that attracts the punters. A lot of people going to a workshop wish to be able to dance a bit like the person running the workshop.

[TA Guy]

You may as well ask 'Why doesn't MacDonalds offer the full range of food?' :)

[Chef]

:yeah:

But in MJ we have the numbers. Ceroc does have a few "specialist" workshops - Latin with Maja, Blues with Val and Dave, Blues with Howard and Nicola, now WCS with Paul Farrell, Swinging the blues in conjunction with Nigel and Nina (once a year!), Lead and Follow with Frank and there are others..

That an interesting list of workshops. At least it is interesting to me because, apart from Francks workshops, all the others, on the face of it, appear to be about teaching visually interesting moves rather than technique. It is interesting because the workshops are attracting people on the basis of what the teachers are selling being visually interesting or even 'flash" moves. Only natural really because we all see these people dancing in competitions or cabarets and think that when we dance we would like to look like them.

Here is the interesting bit. If you look over at the thread called "looking good or feeling good" the poll says that everyone has voted for "feeling good" and no one (so far) has voted for "looking good".

So it seems to me that we select moves based workshops because we like what we see but technique based workshops are less popular because - well, what? Don't we see how technique feeds into 'feeling good' or do we just think that flash moves must feel good?

Or is it just that the flash moves are the bait to get people into a place where they have to learn technique in order to be able to execute the flash moves. The visual excitment of a flash move sweetens the pill of learning the technique needed.

I know that if I didn't love the look of WCS I would have given up trying to learn the technique a long while ago. You sure don't need that much to go wrong in WCS to spoil the feel of the dance though.


: A lot of people going to a workshop wish to be able to dance a bit like the person running the workshop.

:yeah: But so many of the people I meet on these workshops think that attendance at the workshop is the end of it and that note taking and further practice are not needed.

We all pay our money and make our won choices I guess.

[ducasi]

... is there a way to teach the elite instructors to be able to coach and deliver private lessons?
Don't most of Ceroc's "elite" teachers already offer private lessons and/or coaching?

[David Bailey]

Don't most of Ceroc's "elite" teachers already offer private lessons and/or coaching?
Pretty much all Ceroc teachers are very happy to give private classes - and so they should be, considering how little they get paid for a full evening's teaching. And cash money is always nice, not that I'm implying anything here of course :innocent:

But I don't believe they're taught to teach (!) private classes - most of the privates seem to be focussing on the same stuff as in the classes, but on a 1-to-1 basis. So most of them won't really be qualified to teach technique.

[Raul]

Here is the interesting bit. If you look over at the thread called "looking good or feeling good" the poll says that everyone has voted for "feeling good" and no one (so far) has voted for "looking good".



:yeah:

MJ posters usually some flashy dip or aerial where both dancers are posing for the camera. Sometimes they are not even looking at each other. MJ is mostly moved based and quality appears to be the bonus.
Tango posters usually show a couple in close embrace completely oblivious of the world. It is mostly feelings based and complete connection, moves are incidental.
Feeling good is an internal concept. Depends on your mental attitude towards your dancing partner and the dance, making it happen for the dancing unit, understanding what the partner has to do and knowing where she is at and where you are in relation to her. This takes years of practice as you say and outwardly it does not appear very different, but the dancers feel it.
But movement gives the illusion of progress! Have you tried the no-handed drop yet?:devil:

[Raul]

Pretty much all Ceroc teachers are very happy to give private classes - and so they should be, considering how little they get paid for a full evening's teaching. And cash money is always nice, not that I'm implying anything here of course :innocent:

But I don't believe they're taught to teach (!) private classes - most of the privates seem to be focussing on the same stuff as in the classes, but on a 1-to-1 basis. So most of them won't really be qualified to teach technique.

Very Harsh Mr James! :(

Individual teachers have their different styles and techniques and I am sure that they impart that much to their students.

I agree with you that few would warrant getting private lessons from, given that they learned the long way just like us, by trial and error rather than by pure coaching. The knowledge is spread thin and wide.

Is there enough knowledge out there to warrant a series of masterclasses on technique? Given the Bolitics, would the experienced and respected teachers and dancers be encouraged to share their views on turning, spinning, handholds, frame, body positioning, connection, all aspects of musicality to name but a few? I would be the first one to attend the workshop, buy the video or the book or whatever. I would stress that this has to be a collection of views rather than one person or a few from the same stable giving only their version of the truth.

Eventually this may happen, one lives in hope.

Also, before we get down to learning "technique for at least a few weeks before attempting to dance" let's get rid of the concept that we can learn to dance in one evening slogan eh!.

[Spiky Steve]

I think Ceroc have tried different things.

Recently Ceroc London tried what sounded like a great idea at the jive bar. They taught only an intermediate class followed by an advanced class. This should have attracted the dancers who wanted to improve and I think the idea was to grow it from there.

Unfortunately, the idea didn't take root and the night reverted to beginners and intermediates and numbers grew once again.

Steve

[tsh]

The risk with making more advanced teaching more accessible is that your main market come to expect more advanced teaching all the time, and this then raises the bar for all your teachers (and from a business point of view makes them more expensive)

If you're just selling moves to the intermediate market, it's fairly easy to provide a continual stream of new material to keep them coming back. Once they start listening to the music and actually dancing to it, they might stop wanting to learn moves. Conversely, I think that if you want people to take an interest in improving their dance, it's better to introduce the concepts that make dancing easier earlier rather than later. It seems difficult to make changes to the teaching style at an established venue.

Sean

[David Bailey]

Very Harsh Mr James! :(

Individual teachers have their different styles and techniques and I am sure that they impart that much to their students.
As I've said before, Ceroc teachers are very much not taught individual styles or techniques - they're taught Ceroc styles or techniques.


I agree with you that few would warrant getting private lessons from, given that they learned the long way just like us, by trial and error rather than by pure coaching. The knowledge is spread thin and wide.
Yes, that's pretty much what I was getting at.


Is there enough knowledge out there to warrant a series of masterclasses on technique?
In the MJ world? Yes, definitely. There are at least a dozen teachers I can think of, in and out of Ceroc, who are capable of teaching technique-heavy classes. Possibly even 20 or more.


Also, before we get down to learning "technique for at least a few weeks before attempting to dance" let's get rid of the concept that we can learn to dance in one evening slogan eh!.
Heh, that's never happen, it's Ceroc's bread-and-butter that is.

[David Bailey]

I think Ceroc have tried different things.
Yes, they have, and they continue to do so - and they don't always get the credit for it, either.

Over the past couple of years, we've seen "StrictlyNoSequins", weekenders, Blues rooms, WCS classes, and so on - there's actually been a lot of innovation around, when you think about it.


Recently Ceroc London tried what sounded like a great idea at the jive bar. They taught only an intermediate class followed by an advanced class. This should have attracted the dancers who wanted to improve and I think the idea was to grow it from there.

Unfortunately, the idea didn't take root and the night reverted to beginners and intermediates and numbers grew once again.
I went to that, along with a few forumites - I think there's even a thread about it somewhere.

It wasn't what I'd call an advanced class - it was exactly the same format, but the moves were a bit more complex. Plus, they had a set of guest teachers, so you couldn't develop from week to week, it was a bit mix-and-match unfortunately.