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Lee Bartholomew
13th-June-2007, 01:01 PM
With all the WCS threads out there at the mo, thought I would start another (not really, just couldn't find a suitable thread to ask this question).

Someone has sugested swapping the Latin room for a WCS room at southport.
I would like this but I don't WCS.

How do WC swingers feel about MJ'erd dancing in their room? Also how do they feel about dancing with MJ'ers?

Im pretty curious about this one. I danced with Tatiana at Southport and it all seemed pretty normal (apart from my fear that I would compleatly screw up).

angelblue
13th-June-2007, 01:28 PM
I wouldnt mind as long as we both had room to dance. maybe split the floor somehow......but then would it become a mini blues room???Some wcs songs are pretty bluesy so you would be blues dancing to it.

I dont know.

Lee Bartholomew
13th-June-2007, 01:31 PM
Think it can be a pretty blurred line anyhow.

Should the lead follow thing not be roughly the same?

Sheepman
13th-June-2007, 01:37 PM
How do WC swingers feel about MJ'erd dancing in their room? I don't see a problem with this, especially if you are "slot conscious." I have danced MJ myself at WCS freestyles with partners who don't WCS, or who just want a break from the effort of concentration.

Greg

Chef
13th-June-2007, 01:41 PM
How do WC swingers feel about MJ'erd dancing in their room?

I am absolutley fine with this PROVIDED that they can stay in their own dance space, respect mine, and don't keep forcing me to abort moves or pull my follower up short because they have made a dive into where my partner is about to end up at the back of her slot. My feelings on this are exactly the same as when I am dancing MJ in an MJ room. I will keep my MJ tidy and contained and respect your space and I would expect and hope that others will do the same for me. I just expect this as common courtesy really but I do understand that beginners are much more random and uncontrolled in their movements and give them a degree of understanding and a wide berth as a result. A wild couple dancing near you is a major distraction, as you try to avoid your or your partner being hit, and I would like to able to concentrate more on my partner and the music instead.



Also how do they feel about dancing with MJ'ers?


I dance MJ most of the time and have been doing so for about 8 years now. I get few opportunities to dance WCS or get to lessons so to give up that opportunity when it is there to dance something that I can do night of the week just seems like a bit of a waste of that rare opportunity. Sometimes when I am at an MJ venue and a classic WCS track comes on then I will try to dance WCS with my partner but often the random motion of dancers that come onto the floor after the track has started (why do people enter the floor and start dancing with only 20 seconds of a track left to go?) makes continuing impossible (I am not skillful enough at WCS to evade other dancers - we just rely on not straying away from our slots that much to avoid each other) and so we revert to MJ (I have more skill in that to help me evade other dancers) because the music if often great to dance MJ to as well.

Geordieed
13th-June-2007, 01:52 PM
Speaking for myself I think it would work. I was at Southport and swapped between dancing WCS and MJ in the Blues room depending on who I was dancing with.


The debate about the Latin room continues and began even before the last Southport kicked off. Part of the problem with the room is that it is too hot, seems a little away from the atmosphere of the event and struggles to find its' own personality/identity as an event room as well as the floor not being the best around to enjoy dancing on because of lack of give and too much speed. WCS or not the room itself will always be at a disadvantage to the other floors available.

Popularity of the Blues area both inside and out will have dancers wanting it for various kinds of music. It provided the best solution to atmosphere, ventilation and quality of floor. Getting on it at times reminded me of being on the London Underground.


Again speaking for myself I was sorry to hear about some of the comments being made about some of the things that went on at Southport. I love to dance both WCS and MJ. I love dancing full stop and hope in the future that enough can be done to prevent some of the comments that I have heard. Dancing reflects some of the human traits that we see in life in general and like that they only way we can make a difference is learn to listen and listen properly and respond in a way to create positive change.

MartinHarper
13th-June-2007, 03:13 PM
Should the lead follow thing not be roughly the same?

Insofar as all partner dances have similarities in lead/follow, sure. There are real differences around lead/follow between the two dances, notably the nature of the slot, the follower's freedom to play, and the anchor step.

Lee Bartholomew
13th-June-2007, 03:33 PM
Insofar as all partner dances have similarities in lead/follow, sure. There are real differences around lead/follow between the two dances, notably the nature of the slot, the follower's freedom to play, and the anchor step.


So if you dance MJ slotted and leave the woman space to play, you should be able to blagg it?

How important is this anchor step?

I have seen the foot work and heard lots about it, but when you see the top WCS'ers dancing, that seems to go out the window.

Jamie
13th-June-2007, 03:41 PM
So if you dance MJ slotted and leave the woman space to play, you should be able to blagg it?

How important is this anchor step?

I have seen the foot work and heard lots about it, but when you see the top WCS'ers dancing, that seems to go out the window.

Footwork does go out the window, however the timing of moves remains the same. Anchors are the important bits, the rest can be blagged...

if MJ and WCS was to be in the same room with the majority being WCS then the MJers should be aware of slotted dance, that's about it really.

If however you're wanting to do a hybrid kind of dance with a follow who does WCS, then I'd suggest keeping your MJ slotted and listen to the followers change of weight through your connection. Only move onto the next (and I cringe as I say it..) move when she's ready to do so.

fletch
13th-June-2007, 03:45 PM
I don't mind who comes in my room :whistle: :D



No bouncers please :sick: and I don't mean the ones in Crombies :na:

Minnie M
13th-June-2007, 03:46 PM
David Plummer (JiveVibe) has renamed the dance style he teaches to "UK Smooth" - it is Modern Jive in a slot with many WCS moves, quite hard to do if you know WCS, but quite different and very interesting.

Geordieed
13th-June-2007, 03:49 PM
Anchors are the important bits, the rest can be blagged...

I think you have it the wrong way 'round...

Chef
13th-June-2007, 03:53 PM
So if you dance MJ slotted and leave the woman space to play, you should be able to blagg it?.

You could fool someone that didn't know any WCS I suppose.


How important is this anchor step?.

As far as I can work out it defines the end of one a pattern. Until that point the pattern can be extended and played with.


I have seen the foot work and heard lots about it, but when you see the top WCS'ers dancing, that seems to go out the window.

When you look at international latin american dancers when they are dancing cha cha it is very difficult to see them doing any "basic" footwork. Basic footwork is what you learn when you are learning the basics and then you can move on and learn how to introduce syncopations and other footwork stylisations, sometimes without affecting your partner and sometimes leading your partner to match you. It worth learning the rules in anything, questioning why those rules are there, and finding out how and when the "rules" can be bent or broken. Often the rules are there for the obedience of the ignorant but the guidance of the wise. Sometimes rules are made and stuck to long after the reasons that they were made have moved on.

Despite some things that I have heard I really don't think that WCS is simply "MJ danced in a slot to slow music". It would be best if you did a proper WCS beginners course, stuck with it a while and made your own mind up about what it is and what it isn't. Even if you decide to pursue it no further there is probably going to be something useful to learn.

Very rarely is any knowledge wasted.

Lee Bartholomew
13th-June-2007, 03:56 PM
{snip}

The main reason I ask is if there was another dedicated WCS room, I would not overly want to miss out on some great music, just because there are no wcs classes nearby.



I would also worry about going back to being a beginner again. :tears:

Lory
13th-June-2007, 04:01 PM
Speaking for myself I think it would work. I was at Southport and swapped between dancing WCS and MJ in the Blues room depending on who I was dancing with.




:yeah: I think we all did

Interestingly, I was chatting to one of the Southport Dj's today and they said, In their opinion.... if the WCS dancers hadn't vacated to the Dance Den on Saturday night, the blues room would have been disastrously crowded and the end result would have been that no one would have been happy and that the WCS dancers would probably got the blame, for wanting 'their music' and taking up space! So we were in a NO WIN situation from the start! :(

All the people that have complained about the WCSers going off, should really be grateful that they had the extra space! :clap:

Also, whilst the WSC dancers were there, the DJ's felt obliged to provide music suitable for WCS'ers too..Not everybody appreciates WCS music being playing in the Blues room, so when they left, they could concentrate more on the regular blues room users! :grin:

Surely the 'usual' blues room users should have been happier? :confused:

I personally would be very happy to see the Latin room used for a mixture of MJ and WCS, I love switching between the both :na:

In the dance Den, I have to add, I danced with Adam (of Adam and Tas) we definitely didn't do WCS, Mick Wenger, definitely not WCS, Woodface, definitely not WCS and Simon Selman, not WCS.. all dances were great and in keeping with the music, so I don't see a problem?

Lee Bartholomew
13th-June-2007, 04:05 PM
In the dance Den, I have to add, I danced with Adam (of Adam and Tas) we definitely didn't do WCS, Mick Wenger, definitely not WCS, Woodface, definitely not WCS and Simon Selman, not WCS.. all dances were great and in keeping with the music, so I don't see a problem?


And I thought my WCS was comming on so well. :tears:

:na:

Chef
13th-June-2007, 04:05 PM
The main reason I ask is if there was another dedicated WCS room, I would not overly want to miss out on some great music, just because there are no wcs classes nearby.



I would also worry about going back to being a beginner again. :tears:

Yes, the music in itself is quite lushious. I didn't have much interest in it myself UNTIL I got an interest in WCS. So the dance has made me like the music rather than the other way around. Even if you don't dance WCS the music is great to dance MJ or sometimes blues and as long as you can avoid wandering into other dancers space I see no problem with MJ and WCS being danced in the same room.

Every time we learn something new then we are back at the position of being a beginner. It is our own frustration with ourselves that makes us hate being in that postiton. We learn so many new things through our lives and every single time that we do we are, at that moment, beginners again.

Lory
13th-June-2007, 04:19 PM
Footwork does go out the window, however the timing of moves remains the same. Anchors are the important bits, the rest can be blagged...




I think you have it the wrong way 'round...

I think I agree with Jamie

As a follow, I'm allowed to extend the move/count (whatever you want to call it) by 2, 4, 6, or however long I wish, as long as its an even number, then, I finish with an Anchor step to reach leverage, at which point, I hand back the lead to the lead!

Well that's how I understand it ayway! :o

Lory
13th-June-2007, 04:23 PM
And I thought my WCS was comming on so well. :tears:

:na:

Mmm, it is it is! :hug:

(it meant to be WCS? :really: :rofl: )

Geordieed
13th-June-2007, 05:02 PM
I think I agree with Jamie

As a follow, I'm allowed to extend the move/count (whatever you want to call it) by 2, 4, 6, or however long I wish, as long as its an even number, then, I finish with an Anchor step to reach leverage, at which point, I hand back the lead to the lead!

Well that's how I understand it ayway! :o


The basis for my answer centered around the requirements of lead and follow and how the footwork would help to facilitate the leader or follower reaching the key points of the dance through connection in order that they can dance together. We are talking about more than one subject that is an open forum itself.


When you look at the top dancers and you try and work out what footwork they are doing don't forget that they are doing so with an understanding that it doesn't effect the connection and they may still be dancing six count and eight count patterns which includes syncopations to changing the rhythm of a pattern. Ask youself what are we asking for with weight changes at key points within a 6 or 8 count pattern and how it contributes to our leader or follower.


That extending of patterns can only be dictated by the follower before a key point in a pattern. If it is tried after the post is set then you have to go with what is being led and for musicality you can't extend on a pattern if a leader is trying to lead you in on the ONE of a new phrase. He is still leading.

There are so many things going on the guy may want to lead you into compression at some point or he may lead you through a syncopation. You can only bend the rules if you adhere to them in the first place.

Lee Bartholomew
14th-June-2007, 12:17 PM
Still no real answer to the question.

If a lead leads MJ, could a lass who only knows WCS follow and likewise, If a lead leads WCS and a lass only knows MJ would that work?



P.s. Lory. It wasn't WCS. Never done WCS before. Just tried to make it look like I knew what I was doing. Failed miserably, but got a dance with Tatiana out of it :waycool:

Lory
14th-June-2007, 12:34 PM
Still no real answer to the question.

If a lead leads MJ, could a lass who only knows WCS follow and likewise, If a lead leads WCS and a lass only knows MJ would that work?
I think the follow that's only done WCS would have a much better chance of 'faking' it IMO, (I mean following) than the other way around!



P.s. Lory. It wasn't WCS. Never done WCS before.

I know, I was only teasing! :)

Lee Bartholomew
14th-June-2007, 12:39 PM
I think the follow that's only done WCS would have a much better chance of 'faking' it IMO, (I mean following) than the other way around!


Cool, so in theory, If I went in to a WCS room and as long as I danced slotted and gave the woman playtime, I would prob be ok (thought they would either think my WCS is so great it's at another level or take pity on me as a beginner. Win/win).

If a lass was to go in they would prob feel out of place alot more and struggle more?



I know, I was only teasing! :)

Too late, I've already told my mum. :na:

Lory
14th-June-2007, 12:50 PM
If a lass was to go in they would prob feel out of place alot more and struggle more?


The thing with WCS is, the girl should 'know' where she's meant to end up, (either at the other end of the slot or back at the same place again) the lead only 'initiates' the move and as long as the guy has set her up right, she'll finish the move herself.. with little or no contact needed at all really.

Unlike MJ, where the lead leads the move the whole way through.

Leading a lady to spin in WCS, is all in the preparation and not to do with physically spinning her

I feel very inadaquate trying to explain this in writing! :blush:

EDIT: The girl will also have to know that she only ever sets off on the right foot too

robd
14th-June-2007, 12:51 PM
How do WC swingers feel about MJ'erd dancing in their room? Also how do they feel about dancing with MJ'ers?





Should the lead follow thing not be roughly the same?


So if you dance MJ slotted and leave the woman space to play, you should be able to blagg it?

How important is this anchor step?




Still no real answer to the question.

If a lead leads MJ, could a lass who only knows WCS follow and likewise, If a lead leads WCS and a lass only knows MJ would that work?


No real answer to which question? :confused: You had 5 questions prior to posting that.

As for your final question(s) I think WCS requires too many assumptions of the follow (travelling to end of slot, anchoring, etc) that it is unlikely that a recognisable WCS dance could be had between them. They could dance, sure, but quite what form it would take and how satisfying it would be is unknown.

Lee Bartholomew
14th-June-2007, 12:55 PM
They could dance, sure, but quite what form it would take and how satisfying it would be is unknown.

That was the question. How satisfying would it be?

No that wasn't the question was it?

Oh did that last question count as a question?

What about this one?

Aggggh.

Anyways. I think its something Im going to have to try. Wonder what it would come out like? (that was question 10)

Any volunteers? (Q11)

Lory
14th-June-2007, 01:03 PM
I think its something Im going to have to try. Wonder what it would come out like? (that was question 10)



You already did (with Tatiana) didn't you :confused:

So, what did it come out like? :D


(you also tried it with me as well of course but then again, I can do MJ, as well as WCS :wink: oooh hark at me! :waycool: :rofl: )

Lee Bartholomew
14th-June-2007, 01:11 PM
You already did (with Tatiana) didn't you :confused:

So, what did it come out like? :D


(you also tried it with me as well of course but then again, I can do MJ, as well as WCS :wink: oooh hark at me! :waycool: :rofl: )

Don't know what it came out like. Was too scared to dance properly. All that was going through my mind was "If im ever going to elbow someone in the face and break their nose, thins is going to be the time it happens".


You might be able to do MJ and WCS but can you do them both at the same time. Only then would I be impressed. :wink: :na:

spindr
14th-June-2007, 01:53 PM
Don't know what it came out like.
Ah, perhaps Tatiana doesn't believe in telling beginners the truth (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/intermediate-corner/12585-telling-beginners-truth.html)? :devil:
SpinDr

Lee Bartholomew
14th-June-2007, 01:56 PM
Ah, perhaps Tatiana doesn't believe in telling beginners the truth (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/intermediate-corner/12585-telling-beginners-truth.html)? :devil:
SpinDr

Wouldn't have blamed her.

:wink:

David Bailey
14th-June-2007, 02:09 PM
Unlike MJ, where the lead leads the move the whole way through.
Can I just say :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Lee Bartholomew
14th-June-2007, 02:44 PM
Looks like someone is already attempting to mix MJ With WCS


Hi dancing people, We start West Coast Swing this Xth June 8.15pm at

The Shoreham Centre, Pond Rd, BN43 5WU

West Coast Swing is challenging, smooth and stylish.

If you have reached a plateau with Modern Jive this could be just the thing for you. If you are new to dancing it’s a great place to start.

Dancing in the slot with basic footwork will take your following and leading to new levels of competency.

West Coast Swing is the number one dance in the States and is now taking route in the UK, where it is sure to follow in the footsteps of America. This is the dance to learn! We will start with six weeks of classes teaching the basics footwork and fundamental moves to leave you with a foundation to build on. This will give you access to hundreds of moves including some of the most exciting I've ever seen.

West Coast Swing allows you to dance to slower tracks as well as your old favourites expanding the choice of music.

We begin on X the Xth June 07 until Xth July 07

The evening will start with a beginners’ Le Roc class at 7.30 until 8pm then freestyle ‘til 8.15pm

West Coast Swing

starts at 8.15pm ‘til 9pm followed by freestyle until 10.30pm

The cost remains the same £6 for the whole evening

Not only would we like you to come, but tell everyone.

Regards Graham


X'd out days as advertising rule. Im not advertising this, nothing to do with me Guv, Honest.


Would this not be asking for trouble? Teaching Beginners MJ then teaching WCS as and intermediate lesson?

robd
14th-June-2007, 02:57 PM
Would this not be asking for trouble? Teaching Beginners MJ then teaching WCS as and intermediate lesson?

I've been in classes where this has been done before - standard beginner's MJ lesson then a WCS class but that was very much a tatser session rather than an ongoing thing.

I don't recall seeing Graham LeClerc at any of the WCS classes or events I have attended (which, in fairness, isn't a huge number) so I wonder what his credentials for teaching the dance may be? (assuming it is he who will do the teaching) I will say that I thought his jive style very, erm, animated based on the Southport Feb 2007 DVD though.

Lee Bartholomew
14th-June-2007, 02:59 PM
I've been in classes where this has been done before - standard beginner's MJ lesson then a WCS class but that was very much a tatser session rather than an ongoing thing.

I don't recall seeing Graham LeClerc at any of the WCS classes or events I have attended (which, in fairness, isn't a huge number) so I wonder what his credentials for teaching the dance may be? (assuming it is he who will do the teaching) I will say that I thought his jive style very, erm, animated based on the Southport Feb 2007 DVD though.


Same thing went through my head.

I don't know Graham or seen him teach, but the teachers in hastings learnt off of him. All have the same techniques and all of them are also *ahem* animated

Paul F
14th-June-2007, 03:11 PM
Would this not be asking for trouble? Teaching Beginners MJ then teaching WCS as and intermediate lesson?

I would be very interested in who is teaching this.

My biggest fear (well not biggest when compared to nuclear war etc) is a sudden explosion of "WCS teachers". I put that in quotes because i think this will just be a label some teachers will give themselves.

I am hoping that this Brighton class will be taken by Cat, Lee or Paul. If not I will be very very interested to see who is teaching it.
:rolleyes:


As for mixing MJ and WCS - no. Cant be done IMO. You need to give people a focus. Blur that focus with any other style and you run the risk of creating....dare I say it.....West Coast Jive or whatever name somebody wants to use.

As for having a 45 minute WCS lesson followed by freestyle? You cant learn very much true WCS in 45 minutes. It would take months before people were comfortable with freestyle and thats if they practice in their own time.

As I said in the other thread I am all for the expansion of wcs SO LONG as its done in a professional and complete manner.

David Bailey
14th-June-2007, 03:21 PM
My biggest fear (well not biggest when compared to nuclear war etc) is a sudden explosion of "WCS teachers". I put that in quotes because i think this will just be a label some teachers will give themselves.
Well, it's probably unavoidable - if people learn new stuff, they'll want to pass it on. More cynically, some people will want to jump on the bandwagon and make a quick buck...


As for mixing MJ and WCS - no. Cant be done IMO. You need to give people a focus. Blur that focus with any other style and you run the risk of creating....dare I say it.....West Coast Jive or whatever name somebody wants to use.
I'd patent that name quick if I were you :wink:

But if WCS takes a lot of dancers from MJ, marketing to MJ dancers, then there's bound to be some mixing of styles attempted. Dunno how it'd work of course; mixing dance styles is a non-trivial effort. But I bet someone will try.


As I said in the other thread I am all for the expansion of wcs SO LONG as its done in a professional and complete manner.
I think if it expands, then some level of reduction in professionalism is inevitable, especially initially, and especially if there's no "central authority" to promote standards - any Tom Dick or Harry could set themselves up as a WCS teacher.

In the long-term, it might sort itself out, but "variations in quality" is the price you pay for expansion I think.

Simon r
14th-June-2007, 03:41 PM
As for mixing MJ and WCS - no. Cant be done IMO. You need to give people a focus. Blur that focus with any other style and you run the risk of creating....dare I say it.....West Coast Jive or whatever name somebody wants to use.

.

Sorry I disagree why can you not take the concept and the moves and integrate into jive, Nicole and I have been working on this concept for the last couple of years, it gives a different style to regular Jive and smoothes the boundaries.

Other teachers such as Natalie and Nuval tried the same mix in there lindy giving new ideas and styles.

There has always been crossovers and see no reason why west coast can not be another.

Just for clarification we call it Coasters which has been quite happily accepted by the Mj weekenders and workshops. We are in my opinion give a crossover and taster of WCS and promoting technique driven dance.

David Bailey
14th-June-2007, 04:06 PM
Sorry I disagree why can you not take the concept and the moves and integrate into jive, Nicole and I have been working on this concept for the last couple of years, it gives a different style to regular Jive and smoothes the boundaries.
:rofl: - you're too late, Paul! :na:

Also, David (of David and Marie-Claire) is doing a "UK Smooth" thingy I think?

EDIT: I don't see any problem with fusing dance styles - if it works, it works, and people will adopt it. If not, no one will do it - because it doesn't work. Either way, it's all dancing, it's learning New Stuff, so it's all good.

Lee Bartholomew
14th-June-2007, 04:08 PM
:rofl: - you're too late, Paul! :na:

Also, David (of David and Marie-Claire) is doing a "UK Smooth" thingy I think?

I have notices alot of teachers, ceroc and Indy, droping the 'Circle Step Back' and starting to talk about slots and less over turning.

There is no doubt it has started to have an influance in MJ.

MartinHarper
14th-June-2007, 04:41 PM
I assumed it was being called "Coasters" so that it could be trademarked.
Meanwhile Paul is trying so hard to preserve the integrity of West Coast that he's coming across as somewhat elitist, at least to me.


If a lead leads MJ, could a lass who only knows WCS follow?

Chances are, assuming she only knew West Coast, she'd have the sensation of being pulled around, over-lead, restricted, and rushed, and he'd have the sensation of her being heavy, uncontrollable, and late. It seems like a recipe for hurt feelings to me.
Having said that, if both dancers were open about what they know and willing to work with each other, I'm sure they could come up with a form of dance that was mutually compatible.

Lory
14th-June-2007, 04:50 PM
Can I just say :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:Whats funny? :blush:


and late.

:yeah: Thats something I forgot about.

A lot of beginner WCS men feel that the lady is slightly behind with their timing, I believe it takes a bit of getting used to?

David Bailey
14th-June-2007, 04:51 PM
Whats funny? :blush:
The concept that most MJ moves are continuously-led.

Tessalicious
14th-June-2007, 04:51 PM
IChances are, assuming she only knew West Coast, she'd have the sensation of being pulled around, over-lead, restricted, and rushed, and he'd have the sensation of her being heavy, uncontrollable, and late. It seems like a recipe for hurt feelings to me.
Having said that, if both dancers were open about what they know and willing to work with each other, I'm sure they could come up with a form of dance that was mutually compatible.I had a half-WCS, part-blues/Ceroc dance with a lovely lady who was visiting from Boston and is a top-flight WCSer on Saturday. No hurt feelings there!

The only thing she seemed to have any trouble with was not doing a triple step, but once I explained the free footwork she got the idea very quick and followed me very well. But that may be because she is also a Lindyer, and therefore is used to the back-step, which IMHO is the biggest barrier to being able to mix WCS with any other swing/jive dance*, along with the anchor.

*this is also why if you are going to cha-cha at a Ceroc venue, you have to either do cha-cha the whole way through the dance or sell your soul to the devil and do the cha-cha back step on 1 - otherwise it's just too confusing for anyone - but that's another topic entirely!

Chef
14th-June-2007, 04:55 PM
I have notices alot of teachers, ceroc and Indy, droping the 'Circle Step Back' and starting to talk about slots and less over turning..

Do you (or anyone else) have any definate information that Ceroc HQ are starting to to drop the 'circle step back' and talk about slots and not overturning in their new teacher training? I heard from a person who recently did their teacher evaluation that they were criticised for not making their semicircle big enough - which surprised them because, to them, it felt like they were about to tear their partners arm off.

After learning with Ceroc the major dance teachers that I wanted to follow were Nigel and Nina. When I went to then 6 years ago they were already teaching an utter absence of the semicircle, dancing with the woman in a slot (and the guy gets out of her way), avoidance of the woman overturning by getting the lead to prep the turns instead of the woman doing it for themselves (because the guys weren't).

As far as I can tell it is the independants that are promoting technique driven dance and for Ceroc it is business as usual (yes - I know Franck is a major exception). But then Ceroc is the mass market provider and the prominent entry point for most dancers and the good independants are where you go if and when you want to move on.


There is no doubt it has started to have an influance in MJ.

If it is then I see no evidence that Ceroc is promoting it through their teaching program or out in the venues. It would not make sense for them to make the entry point for newbies harder with technique and footwork. Those people that are interested will continue to self select to go to the independants that are teaching this stuff.

Paul F
14th-June-2007, 07:12 PM
Sorry I disagree why can you not take the concept and the moves and integrate into jive,

I never said you couldnt take elements of the dance over to another style. I totally agree that you can.

What I said was that if you want to learn pure WCS (not coasters, uk smooth or anything else - just WCS) that its a good idea to not mix this with other styles in the same night. If I wanted to learn salsa I wouldnt have thought its a good idea to do 1 hour salsa lesson and then go to a lambada freestyle.
WCS needs its own set of techniques and concepts. If you spend an hour learning all this in a WCS class and then go and dance MJ the chances are you will not be thinking about the stuff you learned in the WCS class.

As I say, I totally agree you can mix styles in the same dance. Just dont think its a good idea to do 2 seperate dances in the same timeframe

Paul F
14th-June-2007, 07:18 PM
Meanwhile Paul is trying so hard to preserve the integrity of West Coast that he's coming across as somewhat elitist, at least to me.


Does the fact that I dont let people triple step when I teach Foxtrot make me elitist?

After all, I am just adhering to the foundations laid down by people far more knowlegable than me. Exactly the same as what I will be doing for WCS.

David Bailey
14th-June-2007, 07:28 PM
I assumed it was being called "Coasters" so that it could be trademarked.
Meanwhile Paul is trying so hard to preserve the integrity of West Coast that he's coming across as somewhat elitist, at least to me.
Bit harsh - I'd say "over-protective", rather. Which is fine enough, but it doesn't sound like WCS is particularly static, so it's bound to mutate as people develop their own styles - who knows, one of them might be "WestJive" or whatever.


*this is also why if you are going to cha-cha at a Ceroc venue, you have to either do cha-cha the whole way through the dance or sell your soul to the devil and do the cha-cha back step on 1 - otherwise it's just too confusing for anyone - but that's another topic entirely!
Hey, just tell yourself it's "street cha-cha", that works for me :)


As I say, I totally agree you can mix styles in the same dance. Just dont think its a good idea to do 2 seperate dances in the same timeframe
Possibly true - on the other hand, they do that all the time in ballroom classes, so it's horses for courses. Only time will tell. A rolling cliche gathers no dust. Etc.

MartinHarper
14th-June-2007, 08:49 PM
Does the fact that I dont let people triple step when I teach Foxtrot make me elitist?

Not at all. Teach your classes however you like. It was your views of other teachers that I was thinking of.

I have to say, if it had taken me months of weekly lessons and freestyle, as well as regular practice on my own, before I felt comfortable dancing West Coast in freestyle, I'd have looked for another teacher.

Raul
1st-July-2007, 12:16 PM
:yeah: Thats something I forgot about.

A lot of beginner WCS men feel that the lady is slightly behind with their timing, I believe it takes a bit of getting used to?

I think that most men would get a little worried when the lady gets behind in her timing. It worries the lady too and it takes a bit of getting used to.

Mr Cool
1st-July-2007, 01:23 PM
Is there really such a thing as pure WCS surley WCS is simply based on six and eight beat footwork/timing danced in a slot? lots of moves from other dance styles fit this pattern, many Swing moves fit easily and many MJ moves can be adapted to suit.:wink:
WCS MJ and swing dances all benifit from each other.
If you watch Ryan Francois he fits some WCS into his free style.:worthy:
and watching some well known WCS dancers choreographed
cabaret performances the MJ influence is obvious.:respect:
Dances have and always will mix and mingle (all is flux):D

All I say is lets keep dance based on Lead and follow :yeah::clap: :clap:

:waycool: :waycool: :waycool:

straycat
1st-July-2007, 04:48 PM
The concept that most MJ moves are continuously-led.

Depends very much on the leader, surely?

straycat
1st-July-2007, 04:52 PM
All I say is lets keep dance based on Lead and follow

As opposed to..... what? :confused:

And I assume you're talking about partner dance. Not completely sure what lead-and-follow-based ballet would look like, but I'm not convinced it would be an improvement.

Geordieed
2nd-July-2007, 08:26 AM
well known WCS dancers choreographed
cabaret performances the MJ influence is obvious.:respect:
Dances have and always will mix and mingle (all is flux):D

All I say is lets keep dance based on Lead and follow :yeah::clap: :clap:

:waycool: :waycool: :waycool:


It is true that dances influence each other. What you saw was WCS taking cues from the same dances that MJ has. Do you remember what routine it was that you saw. With the crossover of WCS and MJ in this country I can't see this happening. If the routine was from America it is even more unlikely...

rubyred
3rd-July-2007, 01:52 PM
I remember someone asking me at SP last year if I had done the WCS class and when I said no they didn't dance that paricular record with me. Since then I have taken some instructions, not a lot but gained and understanding of the basics and I don't know now how with a bit of patience from a leader that WCS could not be lead with someone who is not entirely sure about what to do, but is able to follow. The footwork, the arm movements and the cross over are similar to other styles, e.g cha cha, salsa and those in MJ. - sorry to wcs purists I am not meaning to be offensive here but surley a good leader could lead the basics of this style. It is a genuine question, please don't tell me I am daft for asking.:blush:

:flower:

Caro
3rd-July-2007, 02:10 PM
sorry to wcs purists I am not meaning to be offensive here but surley a good leader could lead the basics of this style. It is a genuine question, please don't tell me I am daft for asking.:blush:

:flower:

there's no silly question :wink:

Yes, he could, provided there is absolutely no anticipation from the follow - a trait from the beginners wcs follows from MJ background, is that they tend to move forward by themselves on 1.
So if she isn't, eventhough she's not anchoring properly, she should be leadable in a wcs dance.

timbp
3rd-July-2007, 02:33 PM
I remember someone asking me at SP last year if I had done the WCS class and when I said no they didn't dance that paricular record with me. Since then I have taken some instructions, not a lot but gained and understanding of the basics and I don't know now how with a bit of patience from a leader that WCS could not be lead with someone who is not entirely sure about what to do, but is able to follow. The footwork, the arm movements and the cross over are similar to other styles, e.g cha cha, salsa and those in MJ. - sorry to wcs purists I am not meaning to be offensive here but surley a good leader could lead the basics of this style. It is a genuine question, please don't tell me I am daft for asking.:blush:

:flower:

When Myles and Tessa were in Australia, they taught the followers "maintain your frame, understand the character of the dance (i.e. combination of walks and triple steps), and follow the lead". (And the idea was followers should use this advice in any dance; only the "character of the dance" would be different.)
As a leader, I love followers who follow that advice. Yes, there are other matters of technique that make me prefer one follower to another. But if a follower has frame and follows, I can lead what I know. If she also responds to the music while maintaining frame and following, then we are dancing.

timbp
3rd-July-2007, 02:37 PM
ta trait from the beginners wcs follows from MJ background, is that they tend to move forward by themselves on 1.

Yes. It is important that the follower not move from her position without a definite lead.

I know girls who can go to a nightclub and stay in one spot wiggling to the music for several hours, not moving from that place on the floor. Take them to a ceroc venue, and they cannot stand in one spot for more than a second!

MartinHarper
3rd-July-2007, 02:43 PM
When Myles and Tessa were in Australia, they taught the followers "maintain your frame, understand the character of the dance (i.e. combination of walks and triple steps), and follow the lead".

My emphasis. If I don't understand the character of a dance, then I can't follow it correctly. On the other hand, I may be able to follow some subset of the dance whose character I do understand.

robd
3rd-July-2007, 03:08 PM
a trait from the beginners wcs follows from MJ background, is that they tend to move forward by themselves on 1.


I think this must be a very difficult instinct to resist if you are an experienced jive follow and I respect greatly those ladies who can switch between the two styles so easily.

Mr Cool
3rd-July-2007, 06:45 PM
I remember someone asking me at SP last year if I had done the WCS class and when I said no they didn't dance that paricular record with me. Since then I have taken some instructions, not a lot but gained and understanding of the basics and I don't know now how with a bit of patience from a leader that WCS could not be lead with someone who is not entirely sure about what to do, but is able to follow. The footwork, the arm movements and the cross over are similar to other styles, e.g cha cha, salsa and those in MJ. - sorry to wcs purists I am not meaning to be offensive here but surley a good leader could lead the basics of this style. It is a genuine question, please don't tell me I am daft for asking.:blush:

Rosie anybody missing out on dancing with you is afraid or a fool.:wink:

Any leader who cannot lead you has to be a poor lead. :D :D
As I recall you were able to follow a lindy turn a circle and a hollywood whip with very little problem (what no class). :rofl:

:waycool: :waycool: :waycool: :hug:

rubyred
3rd-July-2007, 10:08 PM
there's no silly question :wink:



:flower:


When Myles and Tessa were in Australia, they taught the followers "maintain your frame, understand the character of the dance (i.e. combination of walks and triple steps), and follow the lead". (And the idea was followers should use this advice in any dance; only the "character of the dance" would be different.)
As a leader, I love followers who follow that advice. Yes, there are other matters of technique that make me prefer one follower to another. But if a follower has frame and follows, I can lead what I know. If she also responds to the music while maintaining frame and following, then we are dancing.

:yeah:
I think being able to respond to the music is the essence of dancing, its about the passion that you feel and the ability to allow yourself to be led without anticipation or hesitation. Frame, posture ,feeling the lead , interpretation of the music, connection ....WOW. :flower:
.

Rosie anybody missing out on dancing with you is afraid or a fool.:wink:

Any leader who cannot lead you has to be a poor lead. :D :D
As I recall you were able to follow a lindy turn a circle and a hollywood whip with very little problem (what no class). :rofl:

:waycool: :waycool: :waycool: :hug:


Thank you :flower: I have still so much to learn and that is exciting.:flower: